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#028 Jason Flom with Robert Jones · Wrongful Conviction

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I think we have the best legal system.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: It's just the people that implement they get lost along
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: the way and forget what their job really is.
• 0:13
  Speaker 3: He just kept on trying to remind me that who
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: was in authority, who was in control, and how easy
• 0:19
  Speaker 3: it was for my body to be found in any
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: alley of New York City.
• 0:25
  Speaker 4: It's a tough prison when you have the guards going
• 0:28
  Speaker 4: against you because they are the biggest gang in the prison.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: They do that.
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: They'll give a guy a life sentence and go home
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: in eat spaghetti like it was nothing. And anybody that said, well,
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: why would you confess to something that you didn't do?
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: My question to them will be why wouldn't you confess
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: when somebody's threatening to kill your life? The judge, he said,
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: how you feel?
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: I said, I'm okay. He said, well, the days you're
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: lucky day you're going home.
• 0:56
  Speaker 5: This is wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with
• 1:17
  Speaker 5: Jason Flamm. Today we have the New Orleans edition with
• 1:22
  Speaker 5: two people who really exemplify and personify what's wrong and
• 1:25
  Speaker 5: right about New Orleans criminal justice system. And the star
• 1:31
  Speaker 5: of the show today is Robert Jones.
• 1:33
  Speaker 6: In April nineteen ninety two, a series of violent crimes
• 1:37
  Speaker 6: were committed in New Orleans. One of the crimes was
• 1:39
  Speaker 6: the killing of the British tourist Julie Stott, after which
• 1:43
  Speaker 6: police received a tip and arrested Robert Jones.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: All, a man who served twenty three years in prison
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: for crimes he said he didn't commit.
• 1:51
  Speaker 7: Is free tonight.
• 1:52
  Speaker 8: The friends and family of Robert Jones broke the Core
• 1:55
  Speaker 8: room silence with tears and applause as they judge granted
• 2:00
  Speaker 8: the dismissal of rape and manslaughter chargers that had been
• 2:03
  Speaker 8: thrown out, but then prosecutors vowed to reprosecute. Barry Scheck
• 2:09
  Speaker 8: came down from New York to help Innocence Project attorneys
• 2:12
  Speaker 8: fight the case, which was originally reversed in twenty fifteen
• 2:16
  Speaker 8: when newly discovered evidence pointed to jones innocence.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: It's just extraordinary, you know.
• 2:23
  Speaker 9: Sometimes they say it takes the village, it takes an
• 2:25
  Speaker 9: army to free one man who's wrongly convicted.
• 2:30
  Speaker 8: This exoneration was almost twenty five years in the making,
• 2:33
  Speaker 8: and it came on Robert Jones' forty fourth birthday.
• 2:38
  Speaker 5: Robert, welcome to the show. Thank you, and our other
• 2:42
  Speaker 5: distinguished guest today is the fearless leader of IPNO, otherwise
• 2:49
  Speaker 5: known as the Innocence Project of New Orleans. And her
• 2:53
  Speaker 5: name is Emily Ma. And Emily is, as you will
• 2:56
  Speaker 5: soon find out, a force of nature. So Emily, welcome
• 2:59
  Speaker 5: to ronfolk.
• 3:00
  Speaker 10: Thank you for having me.
• 3:02
  Speaker 5: So, Robert, take us back to your childhood growing up
• 3:05
  Speaker 5: in Louisiana.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: I was the elder of five other siblings my mother,
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: my mother had six children. I mean, we grew up
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: poor in the poor neighborhood. I lost my father when
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: I was at the age of seven.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: He was killed.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: He was a professional boxer. We had it sort of hard.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: We had it.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: It was.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: It was hard. It was like I said, we grew
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: up poor. After our father was killed. It changed a
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: lot of things for our family to domin. Next to
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: our family, my mother she had to fortunately, she had
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: to stop going to school, so she wasn't able to
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: maintain a decent job to the extent to take care
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: of all of us, right, so she had to take
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: on our jobs. So it was it was rough, man,
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: it was rough growing up. But she made it work.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: And one of the things is that I learned from
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: my mother is that even though she took odd jobs
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: or mothers used to they used to call her like
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: the candle lady. You know what she used to do
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: is she used to sell out our apartment in the
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: housing projects. She used to sell like different candies, apples
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: and different things that she made from scratch. And eventually
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: that kind of like substituted, you know, her income in
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: the sense of actually providing for us. You know, so
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: my mother is the biggest you know, my biggest heroes
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: because she made something out of nothing to take care
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: of us. And you know, in the process of me
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: growing up, you see a lot of things in the neighborhood.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: And eventually I dropped out of school in the eighth grade,
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: and you know I did regular things, you know, hung out,
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: hung out, even though I mean my mother in approve
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: of it, but I guess not having that for the
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: figure there, it's only so much that a woman can
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: actually do to a young man growing up when she
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: reached those particular stages that I had reached on that time,
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: you know, I was in my maybe early teens.
• 4:58
  Speaker 5: And so you grew up where we are right now
• 5:00
  Speaker 5: in New Orleans and the aticenter of the criminal injustice system,
• 5:04
  Speaker 5: right so you're going along making the best of the situation.
• 5:08
  Speaker 5: How old were you when this crazy scenario happened that
• 5:11
  Speaker 5: you didn't even know about, right and what was going
• 5:13
  Speaker 5: on in your life at that point in time.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: Well, at that point, I just turned nineteen years old,
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: already had two children, and I had big dreams and
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: aspiration to one of you know, I was always fascinated
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: about business. I kind of like went to on the
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: mentorship with an older guy who I know you He
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: was a form of drug dealer and I guess you
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: were just classify as being retired. So he started dealing
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: in real estate and I start, you know, from there,
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: my focus kind of like went there. You know, I
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: kind of like wanted to get back in school, but
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: saw like was embarrassed because you know, the age difference
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: was going back to school. So I started seeking out
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: help in those particular areas to try to get in
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: programmed so I can get back in school, so I
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: can educate myself. Because I know, if I say, okay,
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: you know, for me to learn or to understand and
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: the business world understand real estate, I mean I have
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: to get academically in client. So I know I had
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: to go back to school. So that's what my mind said,
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: because I wanted a better life for my children. I
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: wanted to create a better world for my kids because
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: I know how we grew up. Not new for them
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: of my mother, but I knew that she struggled, and
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: I wanted to change and break that particular cycle. So
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: that's where my ambition was at. And all of a sudden,
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: you know, and at the age of nineteen, this happened.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: It is kind of like it really just strolled things
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: totally off, I mean, really devastated my entire family.
• 6:32
  Speaker 5: Emily, Let's let's talk about this because this is an
• 6:36
  Speaker 5: interesting case because it's not just one case. Right. What
• 6:41
  Speaker 5: happened was in nineteen ninety two, there was a series
• 6:43
  Speaker 5: of attacks in and around the French Quarter that Robert
• 6:47
  Speaker 5: ended up being implicated in and that we now know
• 6:51
  Speaker 5: were committed by an individual who shares his last name
• 6:54
  Speaker 5: but nothing else, no relation. This was a very violent
• 6:59
  Speaker 5: time in a Maria and certainly in New Orleans. And
• 7:02
  Speaker 5: this was a particularly violent series of crimes that happened
• 7:06
  Speaker 5: in an area where the authorities don't like to have crime.
• 7:10
  Speaker 5: Very bad for tourism when you have, you know, serious
• 7:13
  Speaker 5: rapes and murders and things happening in the French Quarter.
• 7:16
  Speaker 5: So can you take us back and explain what this
• 7:19
  Speaker 5: crime spree was all about.
• 7:20
  Speaker 10: Sure, there was a series of crimes that, at least
• 7:23
  Speaker 10: as we know, began April the sixth of nineteen ninety two.
• 7:27
  Speaker 10: A man was committing robberies in his car. He was armed.
• 7:33
  Speaker 10: He would pull up, get out the car, rob people,
• 7:37
  Speaker 10: and in some of the cases he did more than that,
• 7:40
  Speaker 10: or tried to do more than that. In the first instance,
• 7:43
  Speaker 10: he took one of the female victims and raped her.
• 7:46
  Speaker 10: In the desire project, he asked his victims to lie
• 7:49
  Speaker 10: on the ground. And a week later he robbed several
• 7:53
  Speaker 10: more people in the French Quarter, right around the corner
• 7:55
  Speaker 10: from where he had abducted the first party of people
• 7:59
  Speaker 10: a week previous. And in the second night of his
• 8:02
  Speaker 10: crime spree, he robbed two people. He walked around the
• 8:05
  Speaker 10: corner or pulled around the corner of his car in
• 8:08
  Speaker 10: the French Quarter, and he tried to rob a pair
• 8:11
  Speaker 10: of English tourists who just arrived in town, and he
• 8:14
  Speaker 10: shot the woman her name is Julie Stott, dead in
• 8:17
  Speaker 10: that attempted armed robbery. A few hours later he used
• 8:22
  Speaker 10: his car and went off in about a mile up
• 8:24
  Speaker 10: the road, robbed some people who were coming out of
• 8:26
  Speaker 10: a Poe Boy store close to the French Quarter. And
• 8:29
  Speaker 10: the killing of the English tourist Judie Stott was a
• 8:32
  Speaker 10: very big deal. It was a big deal here in
• 8:34
  Speaker 10: the newspapers. It was a big deal at home in England.
• 8:37
  Speaker 10: When I say at home, obviously I'm from England, because
• 8:41
  Speaker 10: New Orleans relied so much on tourism. Because it is
• 8:46
  Speaker 10: horrifying to think that you could be on vacation, just
• 8:48
  Speaker 10: walking along the street and get shot dead by a
• 8:50
  Speaker 10: man wielding a gun. Because frankly, she was a young, pretty,
• 8:56
  Speaker 10: college educated white girl from England, the case got a
• 9:00
  Speaker 10: lot of attention, and there was a big reward that
• 9:03
  Speaker 10: was issued for anybody with information that would help to
• 9:07
  Speaker 10: find the person who had killed her.
• 9:09
  Speaker 5: Right, ten thousand dollars crime stoppers, right, And that's right.
• 9:12
  Speaker 5: And let's not forget this is twenty five plus years ago,
• 9:15
  Speaker 5: so ten thousand dollars.
• 9:16
  Speaker 10: Was double that right now in today's money. And you know,
• 9:20
  Speaker 10: is anybody, any police officer in this town anywhere, will
• 9:23
  Speaker 10: tell you when there is reward money offered, you get
• 9:26
  Speaker 10: a whole lot of crap called in, right, And what
• 9:29
  Speaker 10: happened in this case was a tip got called in
• 9:33
  Speaker 10: named Robert Jones and his friends as having been bragging
• 9:36
  Speaker 10: about killing the lady in a bar or something like that,
• 9:39
  Speaker 10: or talking about it in a bar, and the police,
• 9:42
  Speaker 10: as they often do, started with that name, which is
• 9:45
  Speaker 10: a method the police used. They will pull that name
• 9:47
  Speaker 10: and see if there's anything to it. The police had
• 9:50
  Speaker 10: realized that the same person had committed all these crimes
• 9:52
  Speaker 10: because it was the same car that was used, and
• 9:54
  Speaker 10: they were all done in the same area, the same
• 9:55
  Speaker 10: mo victims had to lie on the ground. He asked
• 9:58
  Speaker 10: for very specific things, a similar description of the perpetrator.
• 10:02
  Speaker 10: And so when they get the name Robert Jones, he's
• 10:04
  Speaker 10: a suspect in all the crimes, really, and they show
• 10:07
  Speaker 10: his photo to the rape victim in the first crime
• 10:09
  Speaker 10: and she picked him out.
• 10:10
  Speaker 7: As a result, he was.
• 10:12
  Speaker 10: Arrested for the murder, which was the big crime that
• 10:15
  Speaker 10: was being investigated. It was the big, high profile.
• 10:17
  Speaker 5: Crime because if he did want he did them all.
• 10:19
  Speaker 10: That's right, the same person did all them. So Robert
• 10:22
  Speaker 10: was booked with a series of crimes, including the murder, arrested,
• 10:25
  Speaker 10: put in jail. His arrest was all over the newspapers.
• 10:28
  Speaker 10: It was all over the British newspapers, It was all
• 10:30
  Speaker 10: over the television. It was a big deal. They got
• 10:32
  Speaker 10: the person who killed the English tourist and done the
• 10:34
  Speaker 10: other crimes as well. The problem is that after he
• 10:37
  Speaker 10: was arrested and put in jail, the crime spree in
• 10:40
  Speaker 10: the car with his own gunman continued.
• 10:43
  Speaker 5: And it was a distinctive car.
• 10:44
  Speaker 10: It was very distinctive car. It's a big burgundy Oldsmobile
• 10:48
  Speaker 10: I think, and it had like a landau roof right.
• 10:51
  Speaker 7: And so when the police realized.
• 10:54
  Speaker 10: That the crime spree had continued even though they'd arrested
• 10:57
  Speaker 10: Robert Jones, that tipped them off that they might have
• 11:01
  Speaker 10: not got the person responsible. And so the homicide and
• 11:05
  Speaker 10: robbery detectives kept investigating the case. And what they found
• 11:09
  Speaker 10: was the man who owned the car. They found the
• 11:12
  Speaker 10: car in the Desire project, and he had jewelry or
• 11:15
  Speaker 10: things taken from the victims in each one of the robberies,
• 11:19
  Speaker 10: including the last one in the spree, and including the
• 11:21
  Speaker 10: first one that ended in a rape.
• 11:23
  Speaker 5: So this one came with instructions.
• 11:25
  Speaker 10: He had the gun that was used to kill the
• 11:27
  Speaker 10: English tourists. He had the bullets that matched the ones
• 11:29
  Speaker 10: that were found in her head. He had the glasses
• 11:32
  Speaker 10: in his car that the person had described the rapist wearing.
• 11:35
  Speaker 10: He had jewelry or things taken from each of the victims.
• 11:38
  Speaker 10: He lived less than a block from where the rape
• 11:40
  Speaker 10: victim had been taken to be raped. In the case,
• 11:42
  Speaker 10: he matched the description exactly of the perpetrator that each
• 11:47
  Speaker 10: of the victims had given.
• 11:48
  Speaker 5: And isn't it true that he had said to at
• 11:50
  Speaker 5: least one of the victims that he was taking her
• 11:54
  Speaker 5: to the neighborhood where he lived.
• 11:55
  Speaker 10: Yeah, he told the rape victim, I going to take
• 11:56
  Speaker 10: you to my neck of the woods, before parking his
• 11:59
  Speaker 10: car next to his apartment, basically and taking her to
• 12:01
  Speaker 10: an abandoned building in that building within the Desire Project.
• 12:05
  Speaker 5: And Robert, you didn't live anywhere near there, no, right.
• 12:08
  Speaker 5: So Robert also had a distinctive physical feature, which is
• 12:11
  Speaker 5: gold teeth. Right, And none of the victims described somebody
• 12:16
  Speaker 5: with gold teeth, which would be a harder thing than
• 12:19
  Speaker 5: most to screw up.
• 12:21
  Speaker 10: If it was Robert Jones, you would not miss it.
• 12:22
  Speaker 10: Because Robert has he no longer has them. But Robert's teeth.
• 12:25
  Speaker 10: They were completely gold at the front. He can't speak
• 12:28
  Speaker 10: without exposing his teeth. Some people maybe can, I don't
• 12:31
  Speaker 10: know Ventriloquist, but Robert cannot do that. And it is
• 12:34
  Speaker 10: very very obvious if it is Robert Jones that the
• 12:36
  Speaker 10: person has gold teeth. There is no way that he
• 12:38
  Speaker 10: could have committed five crimes and said many things, including
• 12:41
  Speaker 10: the woman who has taken off an aducted rape, who
• 12:43
  Speaker 10: spent a while with her attacker. It would not be
• 12:46
  Speaker 10: possible for him to have interacted with any of these people,
• 12:48
  Speaker 10: and no one had noticed the gold teeth.
• 12:50
  Speaker 5: So what we have now is a situation where somewhere
• 12:54
  Speaker 5: inside police headquarters they're going, uh oh, I need Sherlock Holmes.
• 13:01
  Speaker 5: In this particular case, everything points in one direction away
• 13:07
  Speaker 5: from the guy that they had arrested. But they had
• 13:11
  Speaker 5: made a big deal out of this arrest and had
• 13:14
  Speaker 5: gotten a lot of attention, accolades, media pats on the back.
• 13:21
  Speaker 5: None of that sounds like something that they would want
• 13:25
  Speaker 5: to have undone or exposed. They'll probably look a little silly.
• 13:31
  Speaker 5: So they've got the real guy, but they still got
• 13:34
  Speaker 5: the wrong guy.
• 13:36
  Speaker 10: So I think what happens at that point right now
• 13:38
  Speaker 10: is anyone's guest. But I think it's pretty clear what happened,
• 13:40
  Speaker 10: and I think it's a perfectly normal human reaction, right,
• 13:43
  Speaker 10: And I think we need to be very careful about
• 13:45
  Speaker 10: what happened with the police when they found Lester Jones.
• 13:48
  Speaker 10: The first reaction when you're a police officer detective and
• 13:51
  Speaker 10: you've got your suspects, and you've booked your suspects and
• 13:54
  Speaker 10: you've charged your suspect, all of us, all of us
• 13:58
  Speaker 10: human beings, have brain means that exist to confirm our
• 14:03
  Speaker 10: existing beliefs or suspicions. Right, So if you think you've
• 14:07
  Speaker 10: got the person, and you find somebody who's got everything
• 14:11
  Speaker 10: and the car, and it's clearly involved in this crime
• 14:14
  Speaker 10: spree in some kind of way, your first reaction is,
• 14:16
  Speaker 10: how are they connected? Right? They must be because obviously
• 14:18
  Speaker 10: I've got my person. And so that was their reaction. Now,
• 14:21
  Speaker 10: the police's first reaction is that they must be connected.
• 14:23
  Speaker 10: They must be connected. They must be connected, because we've
• 14:25
  Speaker 10: got our person. And so they interrogate Lester Jones for
• 14:29
  Speaker 10: a very long time while in the process of executing
• 14:33
  Speaker 10: search warrants on his department and his car. Are various
• 14:35
  Speaker 10: places that could have property connected to the crime spree.
• 14:38
  Speaker 5: Did you know Lester Jones? No, so you had no
• 14:42
  Speaker 5: connection to him. What's happened right?
• 14:44
  Speaker 10: Lester Jones says he first told police he didn't know
• 14:46
  Speaker 10: Robert Jones. He was then in the custody of at
• 14:49
  Speaker 10: least one officer who's pretty notorious for his interrogation tactics,
• 14:53
  Speaker 10: and after many hours of interrogation questioning, Lester Jones says
• 14:59
  Speaker 10: he does know. But Jones you can't name him, actually
• 15:01
  Speaker 10: calls him something else and it says that he lent
• 15:05
  Speaker 10: him his car in exchange for jewelry or something, and
• 15:09
  Speaker 10: there was a gun in the car, and one day
• 15:11
  Speaker 10: he lent it to Robert Jones, and then it came
• 15:13
  Speaker 10: back and the gun.
• 15:13
  Speaker 7: Was still in the dash, some very funny story.
• 15:17
  Speaker 10: As this is going on, then they're getting more and
• 15:19
  Speaker 10: more property from less Jones, and then they find the gun,
• 15:22
  Speaker 10: and they find more stuff from the stalk holder side,
• 15:24
  Speaker 10: and it comes pretty clear that Lester Jones is not
• 15:27
  Speaker 10: just somebody who lent his car out for someone else
• 15:29
  Speaker 10: to commit crimes in that he didn't keep anything from
• 15:34
  Speaker 10: By the way, when they executed all the search warrants
• 15:36
  Speaker 10: on Robert's house and places he used to visit, places
• 15:40
  Speaker 10: you know, where people stayed, that he knew. They found
• 15:42
  Speaker 10: absolutely nothing connecting him to any of these crimes, which.
• 15:45
  Speaker 5: Would be a little bit of.
• 15:46
  Speaker 10: A relp exactly exactly, and the police have said that,
• 15:49
  Speaker 10: you know, they knew there may be something wrong when
• 15:50
  Speaker 10: there was nothing connecting him. Usually if you've been on
• 15:53
  Speaker 10: a robbery spree, you're going to find something connecting each
• 15:56
  Speaker 10: of those crimes.
• 15:56
  Speaker 5: Yeah, my guess is that by the time they were
• 15:58
  Speaker 5: finished interrogating Lester, Jones would have probably said that he
• 16:02
  Speaker 5: knew Abraham Lincoln too.
• 16:03
  Speaker 10: Yeah, I think he probably would have done that, but
• 16:04
  Speaker 10: he certainly knew Robert. And then ultimately he made some
• 16:06
  Speaker 10: cockamami story about how they all did the murder together,
• 16:09
  Speaker 10: Robert and his friends, because they'd also book Robert's friends
• 16:12
  Speaker 10: in connection with this crime spree. And it's a totally
• 16:15
  Speaker 10: preposterous statement. But what happens is there's some really good
• 16:19
  Speaker 10: police work in this case. And I think that, you know,
• 16:21
  Speaker 10: very often these cases involved very sloppy police work, and
• 16:23
  Speaker 10: there were certainly some of that on one end, but
• 16:26
  Speaker 10: there were some good detectives. And I think whether it
• 16:28
  Speaker 10: should be a lot of credit given is a couple
• 16:31
  Speaker 10: of the detectives, one homicide detective and one robbery detective
• 16:34
  Speaker 10: who even though they had this confession from Ester Jones
• 16:36
  Speaker 10: allegedly saying me and Robert did all this stuff together,
• 16:39
  Speaker 10: and even though there was a couple of eyewitness ideas
• 16:41
  Speaker 10: of Robert, they were and still are the kind of
• 16:45
  Speaker 10: quality police that understand that that in itself is not
• 16:48
  Speaker 10: damning right, that it can be, but it is not conclusive,
• 16:51
  Speaker 10: and that that's the kind of evidence. It's very manipulable.
• 16:54
  Speaker 10: And so they kept investigating, and they kept investigating, and
• 16:57
  Speaker 10: they investigated whether these statements that he'd given in the
• 17:00
  Speaker 10: custody of this officer who somewhat notorious, whether there was
• 17:05
  Speaker 10: any truth to them. And they said, and they have
• 17:06
  Speaker 10: now testified many times under oath, both of them sadly
• 17:10
  Speaker 10: not at any of Robert's initial proceedings. But later on
• 17:13
  Speaker 10: when they were called and asked these questions, they couldn't
• 17:16
  Speaker 10: confirm any connection between Lester and Robert. There was no
• 17:18
  Speaker 10: evidence connecting Lester Jones and Robert Jones. Lester Jones had
• 17:22
  Speaker 10: been in prison and only got out eighteen months before
• 17:25
  Speaker 10: this for an armed robbery that happened in the French
• 17:29
  Speaker 10: Quadron in nineteen seventy nine, so maybe he got a
• 17:32
  Speaker 10: little under two years previously. So there was a long
• 17:37
  Speaker 10: period where they were together. They didn't live in the
• 17:39
  Speaker 10: same neighborhood. There was just no connection between them. And
• 17:41
  Speaker 10: so the.
• 17:42
  Speaker 7: Police who had figured that out, they figured that, well,
• 17:44
  Speaker 7: we've got.
• 17:44
  Speaker 10: This statement, but it's kind of bs. We're going to
• 17:47
  Speaker 10: keep investigating and see whether our initial suspect really was
• 17:50
  Speaker 10: good for this. Have testified now under oath many times
• 17:54
  Speaker 10: that they went to the prosecutors and they said, we've
• 17:56
  Speaker 10: got nothing on Robert Jones. It was one person on
• 17:59
  Speaker 10: that crime, and it was Lester James. It wasn't Robert,
• 18:03
  Speaker 10: and there is no connection between these two, and.
• 18:05
  Speaker 5: The victims knew it was one person.
• 18:07
  Speaker 10: All with one exception, which I'll come to in a minute,
• 18:10
  Speaker 10: all describe one person. And so what happens is you
• 18:12
  Speaker 10: have the police saying Detective James Stewart, who again deserves
• 18:16
  Speaker 10: a lot of credit here, went to the prosecutors and
• 18:18
  Speaker 10: he has testified as the only time in his law
• 18:20
  Speaker 10: enforcement career, his thirty year career in law enforcement, that
• 18:23
  Speaker 10: he went to the prosecutors and said I arrested the
• 18:25
  Speaker 10: wrong guy initially, and he will tell you it was
• 18:27
  Speaker 10: a bit of a black eye, that it was a
• 18:28
  Speaker 10: high profile case. We thought we had our guy and
• 18:30
  Speaker 10: it turned out.
• 18:31
  Speaker 7: It wasn't him that somehow got lost.
• 18:35
  Speaker 10: Well, I mean, I say that very loosely. I think it.
• 18:37
  Speaker 10: I think it was never never taken seriously or never
• 18:40
  Speaker 10: turned over. And what happened is Robert remained charged on
• 18:43
  Speaker 10: several of the crimes. Lester got charged with some of
• 18:46
  Speaker 10: the crimes, and they tried to just kind of have
• 18:48
  Speaker 10: it both ways, the prosecutors, this is not the police
• 18:50
  Speaker 10: at this point.
• 19:00
  Speaker 5: What's going on in your head and your you know,
• 19:03
  Speaker 5: your psyche at this time, because you're locked up now
• 19:06
  Speaker 5: right awaiting the outcome of this, I assume you couldn't
• 19:09
  Speaker 5: post bail, right, No, how much did you know about
• 19:12
  Speaker 5: what Emily's describing that was going on in the situation.
• 19:15
  Speaker 5: It was all swirling around you. But I don't know
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: what they were telling you, or what or what you
• 19:20
  Speaker 5: thought your outlook was, or whether you thought you would
• 19:22
  Speaker 5: be able to get justice.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: At first, I thought it was a print.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: Actually I really thought it was a print, because I mean,
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: when you knew for a fact that you didn't do
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: anything and somebody saying that you did it is like
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: the officer.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: Has got to be some type of joke.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: And I know when we got to the station and
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: they went the question is, I'm like telling you, now,
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: what are you talking about? I don't know nothing that
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: you're talking about. You know, It's really it was crazy
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: even at some point after I got charged. I mean,
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: I didn't know nothing what was going on. Only thing
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: that I was able to get information about the situation
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: is from the news because it was on the news
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: every day. Didn't at a certain pert that had became
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: so frust grated just to watch it. So at one point,
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: I mean I just didn't watch it, don't want to
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: hear about.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: It or nothing.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: I mean I was just kind of like frus grated
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: in the back of my mind. I just I realized,
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: I say, okay, maybe they might drop the case.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: Oh. I just couldn't see myself getting found guilty.
• 20:21
  Speaker 5: So you were in jail, right, and the TV would
• 20:24
  Speaker 5: come on and you'd see yourself on the TV. Right,
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: How strange is that?
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: That was crazy?
• 20:28
  Speaker 5: And then I imagine that doesn't engender anything other than
• 20:32
  Speaker 5: hostility from the guards or other inmates, because you're now
• 20:38
  Speaker 5: kind of a notorious guy, right right, and you're also
• 20:41
  Speaker 5: like an infamous guy. But I mean, what a weird thing.
• 20:44
  Speaker 5: Like here you are just a regular guy nineteen years old,
• 20:46
  Speaker 5: a couple kids, trying to figure out your life, right,
• 20:49
  Speaker 5: and the next thing you know, you're in prison or
• 20:51
  Speaker 5: jail which could be worse in prison, right, and you're
• 20:55
  Speaker 5: watching TV and there you are this like notorious, like
• 21:00
  Speaker 5: multiple rapist, murderer, a guy like you're sitting there going
• 21:05
  Speaker 5: wait a minute, you even having this strange nightmare.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: Or right right?
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: And yeah, that's exactly what it was. As you say,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: you know, jail can be you know because during that
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: particular time in the nineteen nineties, New Orleans Parish Old
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: Paris jail, which most violent criminals is, really was tough.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: I mean I grew up in a tough naggs, so
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: I know how to defend myself, and I had to
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: defend myself a lot in the sense of, you know,
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: you hear people talking, you know, like oh, yeah, they're
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: gonna send him, They're gonna send him to the prison.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: He gonna never get out of person. You know, you
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: can walk up on conversations like that. I'm like, it's like,
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: you can't tell nobody that because poor people, especially young blacks,
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: you know, it's like they must have did something, they're
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: doing some type of crime. And it was just the
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: image that's perpetuated about that. It's like, Okay, this nigga
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: wrote and did all this, and I'm like, you can't
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: even explain that to nobody, right, you know, all that
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: very few people that me understand and even in the
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: back of their mind like, okay them people ain't got
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: them child with all that for nothing, you know, you
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: can't even expend.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: So at that point, I mean, I really need to
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: talk to him about it.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: I mean I just I kind of like stayed to myself,
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: and a lot of people was fearful because I was
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: kind of like a quiet person in the sense and
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: they know I was a person that will defend myself.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: So when it is, you know, it's kind of like
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: kept everything out of balanced. You know, it's like it
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: was a crazy time. You know, you got, like I said,
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: you walked up on a conversations that like, yeah, they
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: gonna send this bigga such and such, They're gonna execute me,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: and all kind of stuff.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: I'm like, you don't even know nothing about me.
• 22:37
  Speaker 5: So Emily, back to you. Finally comes to a trial.
• 22:40
  Speaker 10: Four years after he was arrested.
• 22:42
  Speaker 5: He was tried four years waiting.
• 22:44
  Speaker 10: For He sat in jail for four years.
• 22:46
  Speaker 5: Wow, let's just think about that for a second. Four
• 22:49
  Speaker 5: years is just if we just think about anybody listening,
• 22:52
  Speaker 5: think about what the last four years of your life
• 22:55
  Speaker 5: looked like and all the things that you did, and
• 22:58
  Speaker 5: you're just sitting there waiting try That's a crazy amount
• 23:02
  Speaker 5: of time and it should be. It's totally unacceptable. Emily.
• 23:05
  Speaker 5: What happened to the constitutional right to a speedy trial?
• 23:09
  Speaker 5: Where does that fit into all of this? Isn't that
• 23:12
  Speaker 5: one of the central tenets of the justice system in America.
• 23:15
  Speaker 10: There are a couple of factors at work that meant
• 23:18
  Speaker 10: Robert sat in jail for four years. One of them is, Honestly,
• 23:22
  Speaker 10: I don't think anybody from the prosecutor's office wanted to
• 23:25
  Speaker 10: try this case because it was clear that Lester Jones
• 23:28
  Speaker 10: had done this crime spree to anybody looking at the file,
• 23:31
  Speaker 10: and Lester Jones was before Robert's trial, was convicted of
• 23:35
  Speaker 10: the stotthomicide. He was convicted of the robberies that happened
• 23:38
  Speaker 10: right afterwards, so.
• 23:39
  Speaker 5: He'd already been convicted of that.
• 23:40
  Speaker 10: James was convicted of that and centers to life of
• 23:42
  Speaker 10: that parole. And he was convicted of the robbery that
• 23:45
  Speaker 10: happened a couple of hours later, and he was charged
• 23:47
  Speaker 10: with the robbery that happened after Robert was in jail.
• 23:50
  Speaker 10: And I think that any reasonable prosecutor looking at the
• 23:54
  Speaker 10: case thought he's going to use that as his defense,
• 23:56
  Speaker 10: except as a complicating factor, which is that they charged
• 24:00
  Speaker 10: Robert with the murder as well, even though it was
• 24:02
  Speaker 10: one person crime. They charged him with the murder by
• 24:05
  Speaker 10: by presenting perjury to the grand jury information they knew
• 24:08
  Speaker 10: to be false. It horrendous, horrendous behavior by a prosecutor
• 24:13
  Speaker 10: in this case. So Roberts sort of hands were tied
• 24:17
  Speaker 10: on his defense, or were because his defense lawyer was
• 24:20
  Speaker 10: also asleep at the wheel. His defense lawyer rarely showed up.
• 24:23
  Speaker 10: When he did, he did not do any investigation right away.
• 24:26
  Speaker 10: Robert had an alibi. It was at his son's birthday
• 24:28
  Speaker 10: party on the night this rape happened. Then he was
• 24:30
  Speaker 10: charged with everybody there could have testified to that if
• 24:33
  Speaker 10: the defense had spoken to them within two, three, four,
• 24:37
  Speaker 10: five weeks, six weeks, two months, even six months, right,
• 24:40
  Speaker 10: But he didn't. He rarely showed up to court. He
• 24:42
  Speaker 10: didn't file any motions, any motions except a motion for
• 24:46
  Speaker 10: speed trial after he'd been asking for delays for two years.
• 24:48
  Speaker 10: It was Robert just is a very clear example of
• 24:51
  Speaker 10: somebody who gets completely lost in the system. Nobody really
• 24:54
  Speaker 10: wants to do anything about it. The judge isn't going
• 24:56
  Speaker 10: to push it, the prosecutor is not going to push it.
• 24:57
  Speaker 10: The defense is asleep at the wheel. Roberts defense overs
• 25:00
  Speaker 10: was criminally negligent in this case.
• 25:02
  Speaker 5: I'm getting the chills when I hear you say that
• 25:04
  Speaker 5: he rarely showed up to court, Like that sounds impossible, right.
• 25:10
  Speaker 10: No, it's not impossible at all. Robert gets brought in
• 25:12
  Speaker 10: cross cubs. Defence is not there, he continued to next week.
• 25:15
  Speaker 10: It's just for a status or something anyway, and so
• 25:17
  Speaker 10: it just rolls along like that for years. There's a
• 25:20
  Speaker 10: very basic motion in a criminal case called if there's
• 25:22
  Speaker 10: an identification, and it's called emotion to suppress the identification,
• 25:27
  Speaker 10: which would have been a very fruitful motion in this
• 25:29
  Speaker 10: case because there are a lot of problems with the
• 25:30
  Speaker 10: way the identification happened, and it was very clear by
• 25:33
  Speaker 10: the way the victim's testimony changed from what she told
• 25:35
  Speaker 10: police initially to match Robert Jones right by the time
• 25:38
  Speaker 10: of the trial, she was just describing the person she
• 25:40
  Speaker 10: saw in front of her. She wasn't describing the person
• 25:42
  Speaker 10: she remembers from the night of the crime. And if
• 25:44
  Speaker 10: you look at the police notes from the time, it's
• 25:45
  Speaker 10: very very clear that she's describing an entirely different person
• 25:48
  Speaker 10: by the time Robert James is on trial from the
• 25:51
  Speaker 10: initial description. Emotion to suppress the identification is a basic
• 25:55
  Speaker 10: Every single criminal defense lawyer with an identification case does
• 25:59
  Speaker 10: it unless there is a airing reason not to. That
• 26:01
  Speaker 10: would not be the case here. Robert initially was appointed
• 26:04
  Speaker 10: to public defender. That's what happened. If you don't have
• 26:06
  Speaker 10: a lawyer with you on the day that you go
• 26:07
  Speaker 10: to be arranged, they'll they'll appoint the public defender and
• 26:10
  Speaker 10: then Robert. Ultimately, Robert's family scraped together to hire probably
• 26:13
  Speaker 10: the worst purchase they've ever made, hire a defense lawyer
• 26:16
  Speaker 10: for him, because everybody knew the public defender was overworked,
• 26:21
  Speaker 10: didn't necessarily have the resources to do what they needed
• 26:23
  Speaker 10: to do, at least that's the reputation right in the
• 26:25
  Speaker 10: nineties here, and rightly so they were. They didn't have
• 26:28
  Speaker 10: any money and didn't have any resources, and so when
• 26:31
  Speaker 10: the public defenders appointed, they file all these boiler plate motions,
• 26:34
  Speaker 10: motion to suppress the identification, motion to suppress any evidence
• 26:37
  Speaker 10: was seized, all the kinds of things the criminals defensor
• 26:39
  Speaker 10: does for good reason. When the private lawyer comes in
• 26:41
  Speaker 10: the case, he withdraws all those motions and doesn't file
• 26:43
  Speaker 10: any of his own. So there was never any issue
• 26:47
  Speaker 10: as to whether an identification of Robert, which was an
• 26:49
  Speaker 10: incorrect identification it tends out, was coming in at trial.
• 26:51
  Speaker 10: He withdrew the work that had already been done and
• 26:53
  Speaker 10: did nothing else for four years. He didn't even go
• 26:57
  Speaker 10: to the trial of Lester Jones for them murdered that
• 27:00
  Speaker 10: his client was charged with, or read the transcript of
• 27:02
  Speaker 10: that case to see what they were saying at Leicester
• 27:05
  Speaker 10: Jones's trial about who did this crime. He then pled
• 27:08
  Speaker 10: his client guilty to murder to manslaughter in the Stott
• 27:12
  Speaker 10: homicide after he'd got him wrongly convicted at a trial
• 27:15
  Speaker 10: of rape. He then recommended that Robert plead guilty to
• 27:18
  Speaker 10: four separate charges, including including the homicide that Lester Jones
• 27:23
  Speaker 10: had already been convicted of in a crime that everybody
• 27:25
  Speaker 10: described as a one person crime, and a robbery that
• 27:28
  Speaker 10: Robert didn't even know he was pleading guilty too. And
• 27:31
  Speaker 10: I guarantee the defense lawyer didn't even know it was
• 27:33
  Speaker 10: a different incident either. He didn't even know he pled
• 27:35
  Speaker 10: guilty to that crime until twenty years later. We told
• 27:38
  Speaker 10: him the paperwork that shows it was a completely separate incident,
• 27:41
  Speaker 10: and they snuck it in there, and he told him
• 27:42
  Speaker 10: to plead, and he didn't know he was pleading guilty
• 27:44
  Speaker 10: to a separate robbery. This defense lawyer is now suspended,
• 27:47
  Speaker 10: I think, from the practice of law, but he is
• 27:49
  Speaker 10: not permanently disbarred, which is a crime in itself.
• 27:51
  Speaker 5: That is a crime in itself, and of all the
• 27:54
  Speaker 5: horrible twists and turns in this case. For some reason,
• 27:57
  Speaker 5: it's really bugging me. I've just been imagining you showing
• 28:01
  Speaker 5: up at court and looking to your right and to
• 28:04
  Speaker 5: your left and not seeing your lawyer and going what's
• 28:07
  Speaker 5: going on here? Like, what the fuck is going on here?
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: Outside of family members in you know, friends, That was
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: supporting It's like me against the entire system in the
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: sense it's like I'm staying before a system and nobody
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: has my interest. It's obviously I didn't do these crimes,
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: but the idea of having no type of representation for
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: my particular RSIs like it was crazy.
• 28:34
  Speaker 5: So now you end up getting convicted sends to the
• 28:38
  Speaker 5: most popular sentence in Louisiana, oh, the most common, most
• 28:41
  Speaker 5: popular among law enforcement. I would say, life without parole, right,
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: and you end up going to Angola. I mean, you're
• 28:48
  Speaker 5: such a positive person. People just light up when they
• 28:51
  Speaker 5: talk about you. And you know, we were talking last
• 28:53
  Speaker 5: night about how it took twelve thousand hours of legal
• 28:57
  Speaker 5: time of lawyers donating time to free you from this
• 29:04
  Speaker 5: grip that the criminal justice system had on you. And
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: from being in that room with a lot of people
• 29:09
  Speaker 5: who did the work, I can say that if somebody
• 29:10
  Speaker 5: would have said, well it would have taken one hundred
• 29:12
  Speaker 5: and twenty thousand hours, people would have said, well, ill
• 29:14
  Speaker 5: sign me up for that too. I mean, like everybody
• 29:16
  Speaker 5: feels like this was the best time that they spent
• 29:18
  Speaker 5: because of the way you are. But how how are
• 29:20
  Speaker 5: you like that? How is that possible? When someone has
• 29:24
  Speaker 5: been through this very profound experience of being abandoned even
• 29:29
  Speaker 5: by the people that are being paid to protect you,
• 29:31
  Speaker 5: not just the system, but also your own team, and
• 29:34
  Speaker 5: then being thrust into this Angola plantation. They call it
• 29:38
  Speaker 5: a jail, but it's a slave plantation. How'd you maintain
• 29:41
  Speaker 5: this attitude?
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: Well, we'll give me spriint is it used to bother
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: me to talk about it, but I have to now
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: because it's therapeutic. But nineteen ninety six I was found guilty.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: But at the same time, within that same year, I
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: lost my brother. My brother was killed. And you know
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: brother he was he was maybe a year, well two
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: years younger than me, but we did everything together coming up.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: And he wasn't like only a brother, He was like
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: a son of me, because like I said, I was
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: born like a big brother, father figure. And you know,
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: my brother he dropped out of school as well, and
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: he sold drugs. You know, he kind of rose to
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: the level of selling drugs. That kind of the thing
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: was for guys in that particular thighborhood. And he was
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: one of my my supporters in the sense of, you know,
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: being able to help my mother out even though you know,
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: She didn't condone it. She always disagreed with that type
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: of action. But he helped out, and he helped me out.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: He was helping me out because he knew that I
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: was innocent. In prison, I couldn't afford the attorney.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: So he sold drugs to.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: Raise money to try to get me a better attorney,
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: and he lost his life because of that.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: He lost his life.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: So from that particular stage, from that part right there,
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: I decided that I wanted to make a change. That
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: was one of the most bivocult point in my life
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety six, and I decided that I'm gonna
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: fight for justice. I'm gonna get out of prison and
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: anyway I see and justice umber standing and fight because
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: I feel like, you know, he the most currazy person
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: in my eyesight because he gave it likee to try
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: to save minds. So from that part, I re educated myself.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: And when he got my GED, I rose in school,
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: got my GED and I sit and try to master
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: every aspect of life I could, because I wanted.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: To be a beacon up hope to other people.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: So my method what I use is I kind of
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: like detached myself from any type of cir circumstance in
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: the sense of like being denied, like I always helped him.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: I used to get denied all the time. When I
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: started doing my approceed litigation, you know, it was hurting
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: at first, and then it started hurting them less so
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: because I realized that they were all in denying the rich,
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: that it wasn't denied me. I had to detach myself
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: from it, and I realized that everything is take a process.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: And I'm not saying I don't never get frustrated or
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: get discouraged or hurt because I'm a human being. But
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: I don't allow nothing just to devastate me like that
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: no more, you know, and not just kind of keep
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: on going no matter what it is. I just have
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: to deal with it whatever face me. I don't care
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: what it is. I want to face it. I'm not
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: afraid of anything anything to anybody, any system.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: I'm not afraid of it. I'm just face me with it.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: I'm not afraid.
• 32:32
  Speaker 5: I can see that, and it is and I know
• 32:34
  Speaker 5: I'd heard that aspect of your story and it really
• 32:37
  Speaker 5: knocked me out. I mean, the idea that in the
• 32:39
  Speaker 5: process of the system trying to steal your life to
• 32:42
  Speaker 5: actually stole your brother's life because in a very real way,
• 32:45
  Speaker 5: he was in this case a sort of I mean,
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: you can't really say it any other way. It was
• 32:49
  Speaker 5: a heroic figure, and that he was out there doing
• 32:52
  Speaker 5: what he was doing, not because he wanted fancy jewelry
• 32:56
  Speaker 5: or whatever else, but so that he could pay for
• 32:58
  Speaker 5: a lawyer, which you should have had in the first place. So, Emily,
• 33:01
  Speaker 5: how did this seemingly impossible situation up against the odds
• 33:07
  Speaker 5: as much as you could be How did you unravel this?
• 33:11
  Speaker 10: We started looking at Robert's case in two thousand and
• 33:13
  Speaker 10: four before Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, and we were
• 33:16
  Speaker 10: looking because it was very clear to us that if
• 33:18
  Speaker 10: we could find the rape kit from the rape we
• 33:20
  Speaker 10: could probably exonerate him because it was pretty clear to
• 33:22
  Speaker 10: us that he was innocent, And so we looked for
• 33:25
  Speaker 10: it and it was lost. It had been thrown out
• 33:28
  Speaker 10: or destroyed or just gone. All the biological evidence that
• 33:32
  Speaker 10: could be tested had been thrown out before Hurricane Katrina.
• 33:35
  Speaker 10: And I say that because a lot of a lot
• 33:37
  Speaker 10: of evidence got lost in Katrina. And so there's either
• 33:40
  Speaker 10: are cases where you look now and if it was
• 33:41
  Speaker 10: a pre Katrina case, the evidence is likely gone, but
• 33:44
  Speaker 10: this was just the general negligence of New Orleans before
• 33:46
  Speaker 10: Hurricane Katrina flooded the evidence facilities. So we looked at
• 33:50
  Speaker 10: that and we wanted to help Robert. But then when
• 33:51
  Speaker 10: the evidence was gone, we came back post Katrina. We
• 33:55
  Speaker 10: also we talked to Lester Jones and he said, yeah,
• 33:57
  Speaker 10: I don't know this guy, and they maybe say it,
• 34:00
  Speaker 10: I owner who he is. When we were screening the
• 34:02
  Speaker 10: case to see if it would be a good case
• 34:03
  Speaker 10: to do DNA testing on, and when he said that
• 34:06
  Speaker 10: to us, and we were just doing it for purposes
• 34:08
  Speaker 10: of checking out whether we really thought Robert was innocent
• 34:11
  Speaker 10: and DNA could help him, that made us really understand
• 34:13
  Speaker 10: that Robert was completely innocent and they screwed this up royally,
• 34:17
  Speaker 10: so we couldn't do it for DNA testing. And then
• 34:19
  Speaker 10: when we came back after Katrina, we didn't really have
• 34:21
  Speaker 10: the resources to do his case at that point because
• 34:23
  Speaker 10: it was a big and very very complicated case. It
• 34:25
  Speaker 10: was not just the rape case, but it's the homicide
• 34:27
  Speaker 10: plea and the subsequent the subsequent cases, and though it
• 34:29
  Speaker 10: was going to be a very complicated, long struggle, we
• 34:32
  Speaker 10: kind of knew that, and we also thought Robert was
• 34:34
  Speaker 10: a pretty good lawyer. He may't be able to do
• 34:35
  Speaker 10: it himself. Frankly, we knew he had some good information,
• 34:38
  Speaker 10: including the stuff from Lester Jones, and I'm like, well,
• 34:41
  Speaker 10: we I mean, like a good judge could give him
• 34:43
  Speaker 10: relief with what he has. And we knew he was litigating,
• 34:46
  Speaker 10: so we stayed in touch with him, but we weren't
• 34:47
  Speaker 10: working on his case at that point because of our
• 34:49
  Speaker 10: resource issues. He got denied. You know, we're looking at
• 34:52
  Speaker 10: a case with a guy that we're convinced is innocent.
• 34:55
  Speaker 10: There's no physical evidence. They've lost the district attorneys far,
• 34:57
  Speaker 10: which many times in these cases is the source of
• 34:59
  Speaker 10: ex or information that can get a conviction thrown out
• 35:02
  Speaker 10: if the person is innocent. So they didn't have the
• 35:05
  Speaker 10: district's attorney's father'd lost the physical evidence. He'd exhausted his
• 35:08
  Speaker 10: appeals he had. He was charged and convicted of ten
• 35:12
  Speaker 10: separate charges from three different crimes, four of which he
• 35:16
  Speaker 10: pled guilty to. He was sentenced to life with that barol.
• 35:18
  Speaker 10: He had eight sentences of twenty five years on top
• 35:20
  Speaker 10: of that, plus a twenty year sentence, and he'd had
• 35:23
  Speaker 10: two place conviction applications which had been rejected now, which
• 35:27
  Speaker 10: means he is procedurally barred and time barred.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 35:29
  Speaker 10: So all that, I have a really great colleague who
• 35:32
  Speaker 10: was my coke haunts on this case for many years
• 35:34
  Speaker 10: and who looked at it at that point and he's like,
• 35:36
  Speaker 10: I think we can get this guy excelerated. And I
• 35:38
  Speaker 10: thought he was joking, actually, but he explained that he
• 35:41
  Speaker 10: thought we could get some more information and that where
• 35:44
  Speaker 10: it would come from. And I said, well, let's do it.
• 35:47
  Speaker 10: And that was in two thousand and nine, and we
• 35:50
  Speaker 10: litigated for a long time. And you know, the default,
• 35:53
  Speaker 10: the default, especially for someone who's tried to get themselves
• 35:56
  Speaker 10: out of prison before, is deny, deny, deny, deny. Right,
• 35:58
  Speaker 10: you're out of time two lately, fathers before it's the
• 36:01
  Speaker 10: same information, it's not the same information. We found a
• 36:03
  Speaker 10: whole lot more information in the police files than Robert
• 36:05
  Speaker 10: had been able to get himself from prison, including the
• 36:08
  Speaker 10: details of Lester Jones's crime spree which had never been
• 36:11
  Speaker 10: turned over to Robert, including the initial descriptions of the
• 36:14
  Speaker 10: rape victim in the case, which clearly matched Leester Jones
• 36:17
  Speaker 10: not Robert Jones, in key ways in which they were
• 36:19
  Speaker 10: different in the ways in which they were different. Her
• 36:21
  Speaker 10: initial descriptions matched Lester Jones, not Robert Jones. We found
• 36:25
  Speaker 10: information in the Leicester Jones files at the District Attorney's
• 36:28
  Speaker 10: office showing that they had presented perjury basically to the
• 36:31
  Speaker 10: grand jury in Roberts case to try to get an
• 36:33
  Speaker 10: indictment in the Stot homicide. And then we talked to
• 36:36
  Speaker 10: the police officers who said, oh no, we figured out
• 36:39
  Speaker 10: that wasn't rober Jones. We told the prosecutors that, so
• 36:41
  Speaker 10: you know, at that point we had a lot of
• 36:43
  Speaker 10: information that most reasonable courts would look at and say,
• 36:46
  Speaker 10: this man does not need to be convicted of this anymore.
• 36:48
  Speaker 10: But it still took us seven years, and we filed
• 36:50
  Speaker 10: in twenty ten, and we spent the first three and
• 36:51
  Speaker 10: a half years arguing over whether he was too late
• 36:54
  Speaker 10: to bring all this information to the courts which he
• 36:57
  Speaker 10: couldn't have got previously been doing his best to get
• 36:59
  Speaker 10: well every could from prison, and so we did that
• 37:01
  Speaker 10: many times. In these cases, what you argue about for
• 37:04
  Speaker 10: a long time is whether the person even has the
• 37:06
  Speaker 10: right to be there in court presenting their new evidence.
• 37:08
  Speaker 10: So we did that for three and a half years
• 37:10
  Speaker 10: twenty ten to the middle of twenty thirteen, right and
• 37:14
  Speaker 10: then after that we presented the evidence in a hearing
• 37:17
  Speaker 10: late twenty thirteen in front of a judge here in
• 37:19
  Speaker 10: New Orleans, and it included testimony from both the two
• 37:22
  Speaker 10: main detectives who investigated the robbery spree and the homicide.
• 37:26
  Speaker 10: We had all of the police documentation in the record,
• 37:29
  Speaker 10: We had witnesses, We had a lot of people talking
• 37:31
  Speaker 10: about the fact that there was no connection between Robert
• 37:34
  Speaker 10: James and Lester Jones. We had expert witnesses and so on.
• 37:37
  Speaker 10: And the judge, you know, she took a few months
• 37:39
  Speaker 10: to deny Robert, say no and there's nothing new under
• 37:43
  Speaker 10: the sun. And so then we took what's called a
• 37:45
  Speaker 10: writ to the appellate court here and said, it is
• 37:47
  Speaker 10: clear that all this information should have been heard by
• 37:50
  Speaker 10: the jury that convicted Robert Jones, even shouldn't have even
• 37:52
  Speaker 10: got as far as a trial when you've got all
• 37:54
  Speaker 10: this information that it was clearly the wrong person, including
• 37:56
  Speaker 10: the police telling you that you've got the wrong person.
• 37:59
  Speaker 10: And so we took that appeal and the appellate court
• 38:02
  Speaker 10: took it on and they threw out Robert's conviction in
• 38:04
  Speaker 10: late twenty fourteen, October twenty fourteen.
• 38:06
  Speaker 5: So October twenty fourteen, you're both in court.
• 38:09
  Speaker 10: No no, So we argued it in September, which is
• 38:12
  Speaker 10: the Court of Appeal. So Robert is not present for
• 38:13
  Speaker 10: that because it's an appellate court, right, it's not the
• 38:15
  Speaker 10: district court. If you're in prison, you get brought in
• 38:17
  Speaker 10: for a something that involves taking evidence or testimony, so
• 38:20
  Speaker 10: you get brought into the district court, which is like
• 38:21
  Speaker 10: the trial level court. After that, Roberts family was there
• 38:24
  Speaker 10: when we argued it in the Court of Appeal. Breathe
• 38:26
  Speaker 10: was there, Kendra, I think came. But it's just lawyers
• 38:29
  Speaker 10: in court arguing us. Now, there's no right to be
• 38:30
  Speaker 10: present if you're locked up for something like that. So
• 38:33
  Speaker 10: we did that and then they rendered a decision pretty
• 38:35
  Speaker 10: soon after that, throwing out his conviction, which, of course
• 38:37
  Speaker 10: the state then appealed to the Supreme Court. So then
• 38:40
  Speaker 10: that was another seven months I think, pending in front
• 38:42
  Speaker 10: of the Louisiana Supreme Court, which did not overturn the
• 38:45
  Speaker 10: appellate court. Right, they declined to overturn the appellate court.
• 38:48
  Speaker 10: So by June one, twenty fifteen, Roberts new trial was final.
• 38:52
  Speaker 10: That meant he really was getting a new trial, so
• 38:54
  Speaker 10: then he's pre trial again. In June of twenty fifteen,
• 38:57
  Speaker 10: on the rape case, we approached the district attorneys. We said,
• 38:59
  Speaker 10: this is a case you should absolutely dismiss. It's clear
• 39:02
  Speaker 10: At wasn't him. The whole thing is a mess. You
• 39:04
  Speaker 10: should absolutely dismiss it. And the district attorney's response to
• 39:07
  Speaker 10: that was, he's welcome to take a play if he
• 39:09
  Speaker 10: wants to do it, and he complete to anything, we
• 39:12
  Speaker 10: don't really mind. They were fine with him being out
• 39:14
  Speaker 10: of prison. They just had to have them convicted of
• 39:15
  Speaker 10: something in their minds. So then we moved to get
• 39:18
  Speaker 10: the judge to remove herself from the case, the judge
• 39:21
  Speaker 10: who had denied him relief previously, because at that point
• 39:24
  Speaker 10: they revealed a memo in their file they didn't even
• 39:27
  Speaker 10: reveal to us while we were challenging Robert's conviction that
• 39:30
  Speaker 10: proved exactly what Robert had been saying since two thousand
• 39:32
  Speaker 10: and six, which is that Leicester Jones was asked to
• 39:35
  Speaker 10: testify at Robert's trial by the prosecutor that he knew
• 39:38
  Speaker 10: Robert Jones, and Leicester Jones said to the prosecutor, no,
• 39:41
  Speaker 10: I'm not going to do it. I don't know him.
• 39:43
  Speaker 10: Those statements that the police kicked out of me were
• 39:46
  Speaker 10: not true. So the only connection they ever had between
• 39:50
  Speaker 10: Lester and Robert with these statements by Lester Jones. Leicester
• 39:53
  Speaker 10: told Robert, and Robert filed that stuff in court in
• 39:55
  Speaker 10: two thousand and six, and you know in an affidavit
• 39:58
  Speaker 10: and Lessons came and testified in in two six for
• 40:00
  Speaker 10: Robert when he was basically a pro sa litigant. I
• 40:03
  Speaker 10: didn't know Robert Jones. Police made me say I did.
• 40:06
  Speaker 10: I didn't know him, and I told the prosecutor that
• 40:09
  Speaker 10: before trial. At Robert's trial, at his rape trial, where
• 40:11
  Speaker 10: the prosecutor spent the entire closing argument saying that they
• 40:15
  Speaker 10: were friends, they know each other, Lester used to lend
• 40:18
  Speaker 10: Robert his car. That was his closing argument, after the
• 40:20
  Speaker 10: man had said I don't know Robert Jones, and there
• 40:22
  Speaker 10: was no evidence entered at trial that they knew each other,
• 40:26
  Speaker 10: and Robert had said that there's there's a Brady violation.
• 40:28
  Speaker 10: Here is sculptory information that should have been turned over,
• 40:30
  Speaker 10: which is that Leicester Jones told the prosecutors he didn't
• 40:33
  Speaker 10: know me, and of course when he was pro say
• 40:35
  Speaker 10: in two thousand and six and seven, had ignored it,
• 40:38
  Speaker 10: and when we brought his case back to court, we
• 40:40
  Speaker 10: had added that. We said, you know, in addition to
• 40:42
  Speaker 10: all the other stuff we found, here's the evidence that
• 40:45
  Speaker 10: Leicester Jones told the prosecutors. That's Brady. That is sculptory
• 40:48
  Speaker 10: information for Robert favorable. The jury should have heard that
• 40:50
  Speaker 10: Ester didn't know Robert, right, because the crimes all happened
• 40:53
  Speaker 10: in Leicester's car and he's got all the jury that's
• 40:54
  Speaker 10: an exculpatory fact. The prosecutor owed that to the defense,
• 40:58
  Speaker 10: and when we were on the case all through the courts,
• 41:02
  Speaker 10: the prosecutor's like, ah, this, you know, this, this sudden,
• 41:04
  Speaker 10: made up thing that Lester Jones said about not knowing
• 41:06
  Speaker 10: Robert is unbelievable. And the courts repeatedly rejected that part
• 41:11
  Speaker 10: of Robert's challenge. And in the DA's files a memo
• 41:14
  Speaker 10: confirming the conversation that Lester Jones had had with the
• 41:17
  Speaker 10: prosecutor the day before Robert Jones's trial, telling the prosecutor
• 41:20
  Speaker 10: he didn't know Robert Jones. And they turned that over
• 41:22
  Speaker 10: to us after we'd managed to win Robert's case, and
• 41:25
  Speaker 10: at that point we said, you cannot be trusted. This
• 41:27
  Speaker 10: DA's office cannot be trusted. And the judge who had
• 41:30
  Speaker 10: denied Robert relief was actually a DA for some of
• 41:33
  Speaker 10: the part of the time that Robert's case was being
• 41:36
  Speaker 10: litigated in two thousand and six and two thousand and seven,
• 41:38
  Speaker 10: and we said at this point that memo was in
• 41:40
  Speaker 10: one of her files, one of her ada's didn't turn
• 41:42
  Speaker 10: that over while arguing that Lester Jones was lying that
• 41:45
  Speaker 10: he didn't know Robert in post conviction like no one,
• 41:47
  Speaker 10: no one can be trusted. We need a new judge. Ultimately,
• 41:49
  Speaker 10: we didn't ask the das to recuse themselves yet, although
• 41:52
  Speaker 10: we may have got there if they had continued what
• 41:54
  Speaker 10: they were doing in the pre trial case. So that's
• 41:56
  Speaker 10: when we got a new judge on the case who said, yes,
• 42:00
  Speaker 10: first of all, I'm going to give this man bail
• 42:01
  Speaker 10: because's pretty clear he's probably not going to get convicted again,
• 42:04
  Speaker 10: and that's a factor that you consider. And I'm going
• 42:06
  Speaker 10: to kick the old judge off the case because she
• 42:08
  Speaker 10: could be a witness in why it took so long
• 42:10
  Speaker 10: to disclose this memo, and so on and so forth right.
• 42:12
  Speaker 10: That's also when we fought the motion to barn and
• 42:14
  Speaker 10: reprosecuting him just because of the decades of misconduct at
• 42:17
  Speaker 10: this point, and so because because of Judge let him
• 42:20
  Speaker 10: out on bail, he didn't have to take a plead,
• 42:23
  Speaker 10: which a lot of it is that people do to
• 42:25
  Speaker 10: bring these wrongful conviction cases to an end just so
• 42:27
  Speaker 10: they can come home, especially if they have kids. You know,
• 42:29
  Speaker 10: we have had several clients you've done that. But because
• 42:31
  Speaker 10: we've got already won on my a new trial, he
• 42:33
  Speaker 10: was out on bail, so he was able to stare
• 42:36
  Speaker 10: out of the DA and the dabling first, and he
• 42:37
  Speaker 10: dropped all the charges in January of this year, on.
• 42:40
  Speaker 11: His forty fourth birthday.
• 42:54
  Speaker 5: So they dropped the charges on your birthday. You'd been
• 42:58
  Speaker 5: out for how long at the time that the charges
• 43:00
  Speaker 5: were dropped?
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: A year over?
• 43:04
  Speaker 11: Yeah?
• 43:05
  Speaker 5: Yeah, So what happened? Did Emily call you and say
• 43:10
  Speaker 5: this is it?
• 43:11
  Speaker 6: Like?
• 43:11
  Speaker 5: How did you find out?
• 43:13
  Speaker 9: Remember that night?
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 43:14
  Speaker 5: He did describe that moment, how it happened. Who broke
• 43:18
  Speaker 5: the good news?
• 43:20
  Speaker 11: Richard?
• 43:21
  Speaker 10: Richard, let me have that privilege.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: Emily brought the good news. She she called me, what
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: you say?
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: She said that She told me how the process was
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: going to go, and you know, everything that we had
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: to go through the process, but they was going to
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: drop the charge. They called her and I said, wow,
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: this is crazy.
• 43:41
  Speaker 10: To be clear, two days before they asked him if
• 43:43
  Speaker 10: you wanted to play against.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: Right Actually yeah, they called she. I also received a
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: call in regards to another plea. We discussed that that
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: everything was off the tape. I'm gonna fight these people
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: head nil too and everything with all the five.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: Of my spirit. I'm gonna fight them. I don't that
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: you don't even talk to me about.
• 44:02
  Speaker 5: How long was that phone call.
• 44:03
  Speaker 10: We were in the middle of a multi day hearing
• 44:05
  Speaker 10: at the time, but it wasn't just like, you know,
• 44:07
  Speaker 10: all of a sudden out of the blue. So we
• 44:09
  Speaker 10: were at the end of a long day in court,
• 44:11
  Speaker 10: preparing for the next day in court. We were going
• 44:13
  Speaker 10: to have some fun witnesses, both Richard and I are
• 44:16
  Speaker 10: kind of looking forward to and they called that evening
• 44:19
  Speaker 10: and you know, to be to be fair to the
• 44:22
  Speaker 10: Assistant district's attorney, he is the one we had been
• 44:24
  Speaker 10: talking to and he had recommended that resolution to his
• 44:28
  Speaker 10: boss and I had ultimately got approval and he was
• 44:31
  Speaker 10: very He's a professional guy. So he and I talked
• 44:33
  Speaker 10: for a minute, and he guaranteed me that it was
• 44:35
  Speaker 10: not something that was still up in the air. It
• 44:37
  Speaker 10: had been done, and that they were calling him the
• 44:39
  Speaker 10: victim to tell her that it would be happening, not
• 44:42
  Speaker 10: to ask a permission for it to happen, and so
• 44:44
  Speaker 10: we just knew that had to get done before before.
• 44:47
  Speaker 10: So we had a day then of not being in court,
• 44:51
  Speaker 10: and then we went back the next day.
• 44:53
  Speaker 5: So, Emily, is there anything you'd rather do for a living?
• 44:55
  Speaker 5: How how satisfying was that day? How much joy did
• 44:59
  Speaker 5: you get from that?
• 45:00
  Speaker 7: I mean, the Robert Jones day?
• 45:02
  Speaker 5: Quite a lot.
• 45:03
  Speaker 10: Now, My problem is I can't think of anything else
• 45:05
  Speaker 10: I'd rather do for a living. And that's so, that
• 45:07
  Speaker 10: is it's hard, but the anger, right, I am very,
• 45:12
  Speaker 10: very angry about what happened to Robert. And I'm more
• 45:14
  Speaker 10: angry than he is because I have not had to
• 45:16
  Speaker 10: deal with my anger in a prison where it would
• 45:18
  Speaker 10: only destroy me. So I still feel shame and horrified
• 45:23
  Speaker 10: by what they did to him and what good people
• 45:25
  Speaker 10: allowed to happen on their watch, too, And I think
• 45:28
  Speaker 10: that that is it's very that is a very anger
• 45:32
  Speaker 10: is and energy. Right, it's a very motivating force. But
• 45:37
  Speaker 10: it's real, right, I feel when I see people who
• 45:41
  Speaker 10: were involved, it's I can't be nice to them. I
• 45:44
  Speaker 10: can't think you're okay because you let that happen.
• 45:46
  Speaker 5: It's not okay. There's nothing okay about it. I don't
• 45:49
  Speaker 5: know how people go so far wrong that they lose
• 45:54
  Speaker 5: their humanity and they you know, even though in this
• 45:57
  Speaker 5: line of work, you and I see it over and
• 45:59
  Speaker 5: over again, but it's still just doesn't add up to me.
• 46:03
  Speaker 5: I don't. I don't get it. I don't. I can't
• 46:05
  Speaker 5: relate to it. I can't. I can't sugar color. And
• 46:08
  Speaker 5: it's weird because the exgonneries are much better at it
• 46:11
  Speaker 5: than we are.
• 46:11
  Speaker 10: Great because we haven't had to deal with it.
• 46:13
  Speaker 5: They right, they find this grace which is beautiful and inspiring.
• 46:19
  Speaker 5: I guess you're right, though for us, I never thought
• 46:20
  Speaker 5: of it that way. For us, this continual state of
• 46:24
  Speaker 5: anger that we find ourselves in drives us forward, and
• 46:28
  Speaker 5: so that works for us, and I guess that's just
• 46:31
  Speaker 5: the way it is.
• 46:32
  Speaker 10: I do want to say that the problem I think,
• 46:34
  Speaker 10: and the thing that maybe makes me most angry about
• 46:36
  Speaker 10: Robert's case is I do see exactly how all that happen,
• 46:39
  Speaker 10: and I do see people that I know and people
• 46:41
  Speaker 10: who have made other good decisions in their lives, and
• 46:45
  Speaker 10: I think that the normality, in some ways, like the
• 46:48
  Speaker 10: US abnormality, the extreme version of what happens to Robert
• 46:52
  Speaker 10: is horrifying, But actually it's so bloody normal, like all
• 46:57
  Speaker 10: of those people and those players, and that system works
• 46:59
  Speaker 10: that every day. And I think maybe the reason I
• 47:01
  Speaker 10: find his case most upsetting is I can see how
• 47:05
  Speaker 10: each of those decisions were made, and how or not made,
• 47:08
  Speaker 10: or how all of those things didn't get done that
• 47:10
  Speaker 10: needed to be done, and how no one had time
• 47:12
  Speaker 10: to pay attention, and how somebody assumed this, and somebody
• 47:15
  Speaker 10: assumed that, and somebody thought they weren't really breaking the rules,
• 47:17
  Speaker 10: with the exception of the one thing that I think
• 47:19
  Speaker 10: screwed everything up, which was knowingly presenting a lie to
• 47:21
  Speaker 10: the grand jury. Other than that, I see how that
• 47:24
  Speaker 10: train went, and I think I see it a lot.
• 47:27
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I see it a lot too. I mean, this
• 47:29
  Speaker 5: is a particularly crazy case and a particularly backwards and
• 47:33
  Speaker 5: corrupt system in this state and city that we're in
• 47:36
  Speaker 5: right now, New Orleans, Louisiana. But at the end of
• 47:39
  Speaker 5: the day, Robert, you're here and that is ultimately the
• 47:46
  Speaker 5: great part of this story. And you've now reconnected with
• 47:50
  Speaker 5: your family. I know your beautiful daughter was out with
• 47:53
  Speaker 5: us last night, and the evidence would show from having
• 47:56
  Speaker 5: seen her last night that you did a pretty remarkable
• 47:58
  Speaker 5: job of being a responsible even from being hundreds of
• 48:02
  Speaker 5: miles away locked up, you never lost sight of those responsibilities,
• 48:06
  Speaker 5: which is extremely admirable.
• 48:08
  Speaker 10: Two those three of his kids as well, and two
• 48:10
  Speaker 10: of them live further away. But he's been an amazing
• 48:12
  Speaker 10: father to his children.
• 48:13
  Speaker 5: How are the kids, all of them doing their kid
• 48:15
  Speaker 5: that's a miracle too.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, although all of them doing well.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: One of the main reasons, like I said, I just
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: re educated myself and I started understanding the world that
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: I lived in, in the world most people live in.
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: Is that statistically wise, they say that you know, generally
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: whit when your father, especially a young black father, when
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: they go to prison, that generally their children follow yep.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: And me understanding that from being educated, I see that
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: wasn't gonna happen to my kids. I wasn't gonna liow
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: that happen to my kids. So you know that forced
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: me or compelled me in the sense this guy like
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: made sure they was on the straight path too. So
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: that was one of the things outside of just having
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: a responsibilities, having a love for your own children, but
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: to make sure to make sure that these don't follow
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: that those statistics. And my thing is, you know, and
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: I tell people this all the time that and I
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: know it's well yourself, you'll get frustrated about it, and
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: y'all get angry, and you should be. And my angring
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: in frustrations about the situation. I think, like you said,
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: we kind of like look at it different. I don't
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: feel like justice l being served until the system is
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: fixed and to the point where you can't do it
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: to nobody else, you know what I'm saying, Well, you
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: can't really and I'm not saying that the system actually
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: be perfect, but they got things here, especially here in
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: New Orleans, that they got processes, you know that that
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: can happen, that that system can actually be fixed because
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: those decisions that they make and they're end up to
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: a practice of law, this silliness or foodness or this
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: no care for human life scisions that they make really
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: affect people lives, you know, they think about all the
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: years that hard knic and then you they have another administration,
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: then you have canders. Ever, all these hundreds and hundreds
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: of people that you set in the prison, innocent or not.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: But for the most part of those who are innocent,
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: when you make decisions to do that, you're affecting their children, lives,
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: their mother lives, their sisters, their brothers, their family, their friends.
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: You change the dynamics of those people family, and you
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: discard things. You know, you discard things when you take
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: that man from out the household, that male figure from
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: out the household that people have a lot of respect
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: for and a lot of love. You have kids go
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: off into different directions, the sisters, their brothers, their aunts.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: They changes things, you know, their mother, you know, And
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: my mother's a strong woman. She has grown because she
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: dealt with a lot, She lost a lot. She dealt
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: with my father's dead, she deald with my brother dead,
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: and she had to deal with the fact that I
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: was gonna for a crime that she knew how to commit,
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: and she had to deal with that that way that
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: weighs heavily own her.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: Those decisions affected a lot of that changed a lot
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: of lives, and that's the thing, that's one of the
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: key things, and that's what I that's why I fight,
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: That's why I fight the way I fight. You lend
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: the systems anything tools what's right, that's that's all, that's
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: all I want, That's how I feel. That's how justice
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: serves me in the sense of fixing that system so
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: they wouldn't be able to do it to nobody else.
• 51:22
  Speaker 5: I do want to have you talk a little bit
• 51:24
  Speaker 5: about your art.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: Or one of the things I do with I pain
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: issues in regards to like social justice issues.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: I pain issues that deal with that.
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: Now I feel like, oh, it's another way, another area
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: that I feel like it can be effective. When I
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: do a piece of art, I'm all like, hopefully that
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: you can look at that particular expression and over a
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: period of time, or if you just look at it
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: every day, whatever, that it actually can change your perception
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: about this particular issue, that expression that I'm trying to
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: conven to you. And if I know, if you can
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: change the way you think about then ultimately continue the
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: way you act about something.
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: So that's what I kind of like do my art.
• 52:05
  Speaker 5: I've seen it and it's beautiful. Every painting has an
• 52:08
  Speaker 5: element of your philosophy right of social justice and of
• 52:14
  Speaker 5: a strong viewpoint of right and wrong, and that it
• 52:18
  Speaker 5: really hit me hard. I know you're doing five different
• 52:21
  Speaker 5: things every day in terms of work and building your
• 52:25
  Speaker 5: new life. But talk for a second, if you would,
• 52:27
  Speaker 5: about the Freedom Foundation and what it is and how
• 52:30
  Speaker 5: people can get involved.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: The Freedom Foundation is a nonprofit organization that I co
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: founded with Daniel Rito and Jeron Morgan. Well, actually it's
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: created to mentor the you and to give them directions
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: so they wouldn't find themselves in the situation like we
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: even though we didn't committ these particular crime, but we
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: still became part of the massive incarceration problem that's happened
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: in this country. So we kind of like mentor them
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: by giving them our experiences and allowing them helping them
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: acquire skill set, then it can prevent them from you know,
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: going to commit crimes and hanging out with the wrong
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: crew of people and falling victim to the system.
• 53:11
  Speaker 5: You know, is there a Freedom Foundation website?
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, freedom Foundation dot org.
• 53:15
  Speaker 5: Okay, so that's Freedom Foundation m Foundation dot org.
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: And that's that's exactly what it means. It mean like free.
• 53:23
  Speaker 5: Them, double meaning I like it so, Robert, we have
• 53:25
  Speaker 5: a tradition here at Wrong for conviction, which is that
• 53:29
  Speaker 5: we turn the mic over to you, the star of
• 53:31
  Speaker 5: the show, the Axennery, for any closing thoughts that you
• 53:35
  Speaker 5: want to share.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: The essence of this particular story, of my story, as
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: I always tell a lot of people, is that you
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: look at all of the obstacles or the odds that
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: I had to overcome throughout my childhood through I mean,
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: do now, and it should be able to inspire you
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: to withstand and knowing that if you stand, I mean,
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: if you can put whatever in your mind, you can
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: stay determined and focus on whatever your aim is, whether
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: whatever it is, no matter what you go through, whatever
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: life throws at you, if you just keep on pushing forward,
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: then I think that you can overcome anything. That's the
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: essence of what I want people to get for my
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: story out of you know, like I said, I know
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: what happened to me is dramatic, and what happened to
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: a lot of design the reasons so dramatic, and I
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: mean can it touched people?
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: I mean it hurt me.
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: So I know hear a lot of people, but for
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: the most part, I don't want people to feel sorry
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: for me, you know, and I know they do either
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: have empathy, but I don't want you to feel sorry
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: for me. I want you to just use my story
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: as an inspiration of you, whether.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: If you just just think about it.
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: A lot of high school dropouts, you know, of a
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: kid that thinking that he can't he can't overcome this,
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: or I can't go to this particular profession because I
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: didn't have an education.
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, I know what it is, because I didn't.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: I didn't have an education, and I had a focus,
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: and I was determined to get an education.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: I was.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: I had a focus and determined to get out of prison.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: And with the help of the instant projecting people with
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: that particular hut yourself and other people that's on this
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: particular route.
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: I got out. I got out of prison. The eyes
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: will stacked against me.
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: So I just want people to use this particular story
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: and let them know that anything they did facing in life,
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: that you can do coming.
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: But you gotta be you gotta be fearless in it.
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: You know, just kind of face it, head up, don't
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: dug it this uncle straight at it.
• 55:28
  Speaker 5: And you not only got out of prison. But you
• 55:30
  Speaker 5: did it on your terms, and it took an incredible
• 55:33
  Speaker 5: amount of courage and perseverance. But you're here and I
• 55:39
  Speaker 5: appreciate you you being here, and I want to thank
• 55:42
  Speaker 5: both of my amazing guests today. Robert Jones twenty three
• 55:47
  Speaker 5: and a half years in prison for criming and commit
• 55:51
  Speaker 5: and coming out swinging strong and commit.
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: It still swing.
• 55:57
  Speaker 5: And the one and only for some nature, Emily Ma,
• 56:02
  Speaker 5: the fearless leader of the Innocence Project New Orleans ipn O,
• 56:07
  Speaker 5: and please support their work I do. What is the
• 56:11
  Speaker 5: website for the Innocence Project New.
• 56:13
  Speaker 10: Orleans www dot ip dashno dot org give.
• 56:18
  Speaker 5: Till it hurts. Thanks you've been listening to a very
• 56:22
  Speaker 5: special episode of Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm from New Orleans.
• 56:28
  Speaker 5: Once again, thank you to my guest Robert Jones and Lyma.
• 56:31
  Speaker 9: Thank you Jason, don't forget to.
• 56:42
  Speaker 4: Give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts.
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: It really helps.
• 56:46
  Speaker 4: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project, and
• 56:49
  Speaker 4: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
• 56:52
  Speaker 4: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go
• 56:56
  Speaker 4: to Innocence project dot org to learn how to donate
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: and get in. I'd like to thank our production team,
• 57:02
  Speaker 4: Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music in the show
• 57:05
  Speaker 4: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
• 57:08
  Speaker 5: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction
• 57:11
  Speaker 5: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with
• 57:15
  Speaker 5: Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts
• 57:19
  Speaker 5: and association with Signal Company Number one