Latest / Red Couch Theology / Relearning Hospitality

Transcript

Relearning Hospitality · Red Couch Theology

0:05
Hello everyone, welcome to the Right Couch Theology podcast
0:08
this day. Today I did something different
0:10
on this show than I've done maybe ever, which was I gave
0:15
Alex a four second warning that we were going live.
0:22
I said, Are you ready? And he kind of he didn't
0:25
respond. I just went live.
0:27
Which is more time than you usually get.
0:29
Normally we're in the middle of a conversation and I just cut
0:32
him off and start doing the welcome.
0:35
What'd you say? We're live, by the way.
0:37
Yeah. Brilliant.
0:38
Yeah. Well, we're here.
0:41
I'm sitting on an uncomfortable right couch and we're going to
0:44
talk to the. And we're recovering from a snow
0:45
day, a weird day when you, you know, just, I just felt like,
0:51
you know, I felt yesterday was weird for me based on not
0:54
preaching as well. So I just had this sense of
0:57
like, OK, like I have loads of things I could do almost nothing
1:02
I absolutely have to do today because usually it's like my big
1:06
study day. And it just felt like the day
1:09
just lived in its own little universe.
1:12
I think snow in May takes you into a parallel universe and and
1:19
for yesterday I existed somewhere else.
1:22
Noticed everyone so. It was very strange, the fact
1:27
that I I I was reflecting on the fact that we went to a a Super
1:33
Bowl get together and wore shorts on the back patio and
1:36
watched the Super Bowl. Nuts.
1:38
Months ago, yeah. It's months, yeah.
1:43
And then we had snow yesterday, maybe the most snow we've had
1:45
all season. Maybe it might have been.
1:47
Yeah, that was the biggest snowfall of the winter.
1:49
Yeah, and flowers are getting crushed and I lost like half my
1:53
Peaches off my Peachtree and I really know what to do with that
1:58
right now. There's a lot of emotion, a lot
2:01
of pain. Yeah.
2:04
But fortunately, you know, it's just a plant, so.
2:06
Yeah, so. How many of these have we got
2:10
left? Were you on sabbatical?
2:17
You're not tuning in every week during your sabbatical.
2:19
This is news to me. What am I gonna do?
2:24
I'm gonna sit on an uncomfortable couch all alone.
2:29
Just gonna you didn't. Warn me about this.
2:30
This is you're gonna keep a vigil.
2:33
You know what? If you would like to cancel
2:36
Alex's sabbatical, please write in the comment section.
2:40
Yeah, for my sake. No, I think what, two or three?
2:46
I think 2, two, yeah. I mean, you're gonna preach an
2:52
additional one, right? Yeah, that.
2:54
But you're gonna ditch me before the podcast.
2:56
Yeah, whatever. Whatever.
3:00
It's fine. I'm going to be OK.
3:01
I don't need you. I actually said to someone the
3:04
other day, it was maybe I even said it to you when you went on
3:07
sabbatical like the year after I got here, got here, we liked
3:11
each other, but we weren't really friends.
3:13
Like, you know, we hadn't just spent that much time together.
3:16
And now I go on sabbatical and look at that.
3:21
That's right. And yeah, and now I'd, I'd
3:24
consider, I don't know if you would consider me, but I would
3:27
consider you one of my closest. Friends.
3:28
Yeah, I would since yeah, now we're now we're just.
3:30
Yeah, I felt like I went on a limb there.
3:32
He met me where I was at. Or he's lying just for the show,
3:36
because I'm also probably one of his worst at the same time.
3:41
Have you ever watched Phineas and Ferb?
3:45
I have, yeah. So there's an episode where
3:50
Baujit and the other there's a there's a character who's like
3:55
the quintessential nerd, bookworm kind of character.
4:01
And then there's the bully character.
4:03
And they're constantly like the bully's always picking on the
4:06
nerdy character. And there's this whole episode
4:10
where something happens and they get separated and they have this
4:14
big musical number called Frenemies because we're
4:19
frenemies. You're like my least favorite
4:22
brother. So anyway, no, we're not
4:28
frenemies. We're just friends.
4:29
Oh yeah, absolutely. I just occasionally annoy him.
4:33
Podcast. We did get a podcast question.
4:36
I I almost forgot we're on a podcast show.
4:39
You did. Here's the question I need help
4:45
and end of question. Well, that could be quite
4:48
serious. Thing it it, it could be, but I
4:51
don't know who this is, so if you actually need help, would
4:53
you please let us know? And if you actually thought you
4:56
were to question. If you actually were right, like
4:58
I need help understanding something.
5:00
Fair enough. Yeah.
5:01
Just so you know, if you think you submitted a full question,
5:04
we didn't get it. And if you actually need help,
5:07
we might be willing to if we certainly.
5:10
Be willing to. One knew who you were.
5:13
Again, our my system doesn't tell me.
5:16
These questions come in anonymously, which maybe I'm a
5:18
little bit scared to tell you on the show 'cause you might start
5:20
sending us really scary questions.
5:23
These come anonymously to me and maybe I could look you up after
5:26
the fact if I like, logged in the website and did all a whole
5:29
bunch of rigmarole. But you probably won't do.
5:31
But you guys know that we're not that kind of show.
5:34
You mean like the kind of show that does work?
5:38
But if you do need help, let us know.
5:40
And if you're. About to tune out, I apologize.
5:45
They're sitting there in, they're driving, listening to
5:47
this episode, thinking good. Thank God there's only two more
5:50
episodes. So you preached Sunday I.
5:58
Did it felt like that? Yeah.
6:00
And yeah, could you give us you went a little shorter?
6:06
No, no, no, no. I actually got a report from
6:09
Brian. I went 39 minutes and 50
6:15
seconds. Which service?
6:19
The but they were like within two or three minutes of each.
6:22
Other yes, yeah, yeah. Unbelievable.
6:25
Brian, Brian came to me and said you nailed the time.
6:28
Yes, not the Sir. He didn't say the sermon.
6:30
He said you nailed the time. The whole service, we actually
6:32
look at us. We, our forces combined, we
6:36
ended on time as a church. And we do that so rarely, most
6:41
of our attenders have no idea how long it's supposed to be.
6:46
All right. And we figure that out right
6:47
before I go on to about a club. Yeah, combined, he got this
6:50
dialed in 20 minutes over. When he comes back, he he'll
6:53
have so much pent up energy he's going to be preaching for 90
6:56
minutes. Yeah, I so I talked about eating
6:59
this week, which is something I love to do.
7:02
Yeah, yeah. Eating together.
7:04
It was, it was good. It's then you shared some
7:10
beautiful stories about your parents.
7:11
They did, yeah, and it was actually their anniversary like
7:14
2 days later. Did they?
7:15
Give the message. This, I don't know, listen to me
7:18
very much to be honest, but I was like, this is my anniversary
7:21
gift to you now. You know, however many 100
7:24
people in Colorado think you are absolute Saints.
7:28
You have just absolutely nailed the way of Jesus.
7:32
So, yeah, they, they like, you know, one of the things I, I was
7:35
thinking as I was writing about eating, I thought like, we
7:41
almost have no framework for eating that could come close to
7:45
matching what they had in the 1st century.
7:49
You mean as far as the intimacy of it?
7:51
Yeah, like the, the, the, the, the, the, the connection of it,
7:54
what it meant Like we can sit down with almost anyone.
7:58
We can sit down with someone over like a business meal and it
8:01
means nothing. We can lie to someone during a
8:05
meal and it means almost nothing.
8:07
Like there's, you know, the the like I'm not talking about South
8:10
or Christians particularly. I'm just mean, I mean the
8:12
culture of the day. Yeah.
8:15
Where whereas for most of history, eating has meant
8:19
something significant, like it's, it's a connection.
8:23
I mean, you read the Count of Monte Cristo, right or listened
8:25
to it, right? Like what's the count's story?
8:27
Like he's got this enemy that he wants to take revenge on.
8:30
He goes to visit his house and he won't eat.
8:34
And and the, the wife of his enemy, who's kind of been is his
8:38
long lost love is like, will you eat something?
8:42
And he's like, no, I don't eat these this type of food.
8:45
And she's like, you know, there's a sacred tradition that
8:48
says that when people share food, it bonds them forever.
8:52
And he's like, I don't need this food.
8:54
And and it's him protecting his right to take revenge, because
8:59
the moment he eats the food and shares it with his enemy, he can
9:03
no longer take revenge on him. Have you seen the the new like
9:07
TV series kind of Monte Cristo? I have, yeah.
9:11
What'd you think of it? I.
9:13
Mean it felt, it felt to me like probably about about as good as
9:16
you can get on TV, but is no match for the book.
9:19
Agreed. Yeah, that that was like my
9:21
sense of. Like, I was like, I was
9:23
pleasantly surprised. Like, it was a little
9:26
disorienting, the timeline struggle thing of it, but I was
9:30
like, 'cause I'd seen the other movie and was deeply, yeah.
9:34
Yeah. Deeply disappointed by
9:37
comparison of the book, but I was like OK well done, like fair
9:41
enough. When you say the other movie, do
9:43
you mean the old movie in English or the older movie in
9:46
English or the new movie in French?
9:50
You think I watched a movie in French?
9:52
No. It does the subtitles.
9:54
I didn't, but yeah, there is no, the old, not the Super old, the
9:58
medium old, yes. Anyway, I I thought it got the
10:03
heartbeat of the revenge and the tension and the complexity.
10:07
Of it yeah yeah the anger like I think it gave you a better
10:10
window in some ways than the book canning to like some of the
10:14
like oh this is what I could do in this moment like the the rage
10:18
of it all yeah so I I I think like.
10:21
And the the problem of of revenge.
10:25
Sure, yeah. And so, so I think it's just
10:27
hard for us to grasp all of that.
10:28
You know, it's, it's a very different culture.
10:32
Like even for us to grasp that still in the East today, if a
10:38
tradesman comes by or a salesman comes by, there's places where
10:42
it's still very normal say, oh, come in like have something to
10:46
eat. Like, you know, whereas we're
10:47
like, you know, we don't even answer the door half the time.
10:51
Like my wife always gets mad at me because I answer the door
10:53
during dinner. Someone comes and knocks on the
10:55
door. I'm like, it's just a tradesman.
10:57
I'm like, yeah, but I mean, you know, we're going to leave the
11:00
guy used. To be that way before I had
11:01
obnoxious dogs. Oh, yeah, And now my dogs bark
11:05
like so intensely when people come to the door.
11:08
I hate the person that came to the door that they came to the
11:11
door. I used to be like the kind, the
11:13
guy like, hey, what's up? You know, like, and I would
11:15
listen to their whole spiel, what they're trying to sell.
11:18
And Alice would be like, can you please come in now?
11:21
I'm like, you made my dogs bark. You're dead to me.
11:26
Sorry. I how?
11:27
How old are you? You're.
11:28
Trying to run a podcast actually, and I've derailed you
11:31
twice now. County Monte Cristo dogs I So
11:34
yeah, eating together is different and I'm in a mood.
11:39
People listening and like why is this 25 year old talking to this
11:43
80 year old? I don't like people at my door.
11:51
So, so eating together, there's no equivalent.
11:54
OK, so yeah, what? What would be the equivalent
11:57
moderate like so because. It's yeah, I really don't know
12:01
if there is what like like so I, I think that.
12:03
That's how relationally broken we are in the West.
12:06
Is it like this England? Yeah, I would say so, yeah,
12:09
yeah, maybe a little less so like I think people you know for
12:14
for one, like in England like maybe 5% of people have a garage
12:22
or garage. So you're you're at the very
12:26
least not just driving into a garage and shutting the door
12:30
behind you as you pull in. Yeah.
12:33
Like, at least you're parking in a driveway and walking into your
12:35
home still. Because, you know, house sizes,
12:38
all sorts of things. Like most people have either
12:40
like, knocked down the garage and built an extension or turn
12:42
the garage into another room of some kind or don't use it, but
12:45
use it for storage. Yeah.
12:47
Like the number of people that just drive on a park on a
12:49
driveway, it's huge. And so there's a little bit more
12:52
connection. Yeah, houses are closer
12:55
together, so there's a little bit more intimacy there.
12:58
You know, you don't have quite the distance that you do in in
13:01
American houses. So.
13:02
So I think there's more neighbourleness.
13:05
But I don't think English people by nature is as friendly or as
13:08
friendly as Americans, I think. I think Americans are very
13:12
casually friendly, but it doesn't mean anything.
13:16
Yeah, that's an interesting. Observation, it's very easy to
13:19
have, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a quick shallow, like, you
13:22
know, like, Oh yeah. Hey, how's it going?
13:24
Don't you dare tell me. Sure.
13:25
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
13:27
And even if you do, I. Hope you don't actually give me
13:29
a real answer. So, so, so I, I think you can by
13:34
nature quite easily eat meals with someone, be that connected
13:40
to them. And it means nothing in terms
13:43
of, you know, how how connected you feel or see yourself.
13:49
Whereas in the East that wasn't true at all in the 1st century
13:52
and it still isn't true today. You know, they actually use
13:55
language of the salt covenant. So just by sharing salt, you
14:00
formed a covenant bond together. Like that's how connected you
14:04
are. Like the only relationship we
14:07
think of being a covenant today's marriage.
14:10
And even then, like 50% of marriages end.
14:14
So, so like the the the sense of what that meant is just huge.
14:19
So I love in West Africa in, in Cote d'Ivoire, which is where I,
14:23
I was part of like sending young adult teams to for a while there
14:27
prior to working at South. One of the things that like
14:31
illustrated for me the difference in relational
14:38
aptitude in West Africa compared to the to America was how they
14:43
say goodbye when you do visit. So in in Cote d'Ivoire, they say
14:48
1 when you visit, it's very rarely on a calendar.
14:54
In fact, maybe almost never on a calendar.
15:00
And so when you visit, like maybe you discussed the visit
15:04
slightly, but either way, you just, you're dropping in at to
15:11
say hello or whatever. And so you just show up at
15:14
someone's house and they usher you in.
15:17
They offer you water right away because it's a hot environment,
15:21
all that sort of thing. Waters sort of the sacred thing
15:24
that you share together, this life giving thing.
15:27
You offer them water and you sit and you, what's the news, the
15:31
conversation starter And then the conversation in a very
15:35
traditional, like it's getting more westernized.
15:37
Unfortunately, when a very traditional context of this,
15:41
this gathering, you'd have a whole household hold or a
15:46
courtyard where you're, you're sitting in a circle of about 10
15:50
to 20 people potentially when you go visit, because it's like
15:54
the whole courtyard area of all these little houses or whatever
15:57
that are in the area. And the oldest 1, you would, you
16:00
would ask for the news and then that person would ask the person
16:06
next to them and you're sort of sitting in a hierarchy of age of
16:11
like seniority. And you'd say, so what's the
16:14
news? What's the news, What's the
16:15
news? What's the news?
16:16
Now everyone can hear each other asking for the news.
16:19
And it part of it is that it gives the everyone in the circle
16:23
the time to actually process the question appropriately and come
16:27
up with the most important response.
16:30
And then they would say, this is the news, this is the news, this
16:32
is the news, this is the news. This is not like it's a, it's
16:34
not telephone where you miss something because everyone hears
16:38
the answer, but it gives each person in the circle the
16:41
opportunity to embellish, to add a detail to whatever it may be.
16:45
All right, so now I'm getting into the weeds of, of how this
16:48
is done, but it's like highly relational and so very time
16:51
consuming. So you'd stay with them for
16:53
hours, dropping in to say hello, That's amazing to get the news.
16:58
And then when it came time to to leave, you might say something
17:03
like, you know, I think I'm asking for the road and I and so
17:12
they go through the circle. They so and so is asking for the
17:16
road, like to, to go get along along the way.
17:20
And you know, maybe the the elder in the circle will be
17:22
like, I'll give him half the road.
17:26
They might make it to the door. And then the conversation
17:29
continues. I love that.
17:32
And so you'd walk to the door and talk for another 30 to 40
17:36
minutes at the door. And then when they finally
17:42
quote, UN quote, give you the road, what that means is they
17:45
will walk almost all the way home with you.
17:47
Oh wow. Well, there's.
17:50
So like you're, there's many times where someone would like
17:53
you're giving them the road, meaning you like you will escort
17:56
them home or most of the way home.
17:59
And so you walk halfway to their house.
18:02
And part of it is this idea of of like your visit was so
18:06
important to me and I was so valued by you.
18:09
I'm unwilling to let go of. It which is weirdly like couple
18:13
of things like 1. I, I think like you touched on a
18:17
few details that we just miss today, like even the, the, the,
18:25
the, the gift of age. The first time I encountered
18:29
that from an African community was the guy I mentioned on
18:33
Sunday, Justin, who became a close friend of my dad.
18:36
He's from Sierra Leone, but his family originally from Nigeria.
18:39
He's dad was a tribal chief, a very important man.
18:43
And so when we went to Justin's birthday party, one of his
18:49
relations came up to me and said, hello, my name's so And so
18:53
I'm Justin's oldest male relation in the room.
18:57
And I was like, that's such a strange thing to say.
19:01
You know, my brothers, I'm the oldest one.
19:03
I'm like, what are you, 12? And by inference, what he's
19:07
saying is like, I'll be running the show.
19:09
Yeah, absolutely. He's like I have.
19:11
No idea I. Will be officiating the evening,
19:13
yeah. Yeah, yeah.
19:14
He's like, I mean, he's right. Yeah.
19:15
And he's essentially saying I'm more important than everyone you
19:18
know, in in some kind of like cultural way.
19:23
So, so that that's always fascinated me.
19:25
But like thinking about what you said about like The Walking home
19:28
with you, as much as it seems foreign to us, it's not very far
19:33
from Anne Creswell saying when people come to visit, I want
19:36
them to feel like they made my day by being here.
19:39
So like somewhere you see these deep roots of like what culture,
19:44
what care means, hospitality means when you come to gather
19:48
with someone, which is quite surprising.
19:51
So, OK, all of that storytelling and context and contrast with
19:57
American Western reaction to evening together, maybe the part
20:03
of the point of this is the day in which Jesus is teaching and
20:07
interacting with people is closer to the African context
20:11
than it is to our Western context.
20:14
And so when you challenged us on Sunday.
20:17
To consider and to maybe prioritize eating with our
20:23
neighbors. It's maybe a bigger challenge
20:28
than we even can fathom. Not that we would suddenly ask
20:35
for the news or ask for the road in the same way a WAW African
20:38
might, but this is what Jesus had in mind, and he's pushing
20:44
the He's pushing the boundaries of his context by challenging
20:50
that you would eat with someone and fellowship with someone
20:53
intimately. And, and, and all these
20:55
cultural, like cultural ways of doing things that we tend to
21:01
think of like as being throwbacks or foreign.
21:05
They all have very good, not necessarily language, but
21:10
sometimes language. They all have ways of saying,
21:14
well, these people are inside and those people are over there
21:19
are outside. And then the moment they sit
21:21
down to eat, they're like, oh, now you're inside and now you're
21:26
essentially a brother of some kind or some kind of like we've
21:29
pulled you close. Like we've, we've acknowledged
21:31
you, accepted you. Then again, we just don't think
21:36
in those terms. Someone can come to visit, and
21:38
they said they might say, how can we bring a friend?
21:40
And you're like, oh, yeah, and maybe there's a closer
21:42
connection, but you might never talk to that person again.
21:45
You may never think of that person again.
21:46
Most of these cultures had some sense of like, well, we eat with
21:49
the insiders. And when you bring someone into
21:53
the group, you're at some level acknowledging them, accepting
21:56
them, valuing them. And so the Society of Jesus,
22:00
they had very clear lines about who could eat with who,
22:03
especially for the Pharisees, you know, it was very much like
22:06
you, you eat with people that are living, living out Torah.
22:10
They're living the way that God would have us live.
22:14
And we won't eat with someone who doesn't do that.
22:16
Like they got to start doing that and then we might say, OK,
22:20
we'll sit down. So.
22:22
So with Sunday, this might be feel rhetorical, but with Sunday
22:29
about challenging us to eat with our actual neighbors more?
22:35
Or was it about challenging us to reconsider who we would
22:41
deeply fellowship with? Yeah, I, I, I meant I, I maybe.
22:45
It's both. I, I mean, I would guess both,
22:50
but probably the first one more so, So I, I think we assume that
23:00
one, it's very easy to start deciding like I've got limits on
23:04
who I'm going to get together with now.
23:05
And that's a business thing that interplays into all of that
23:08
hospitality stuff. We just taught to like if I
23:11
think the number of people that we have in our lives that would
23:14
just drop round like without calling beforehand, without any
23:19
kind of interaction beforehand, it's pretty small.
23:22
Whereas my parents probably had 40 or 50 people that could just
23:26
drop in at any moment. And you know, if they weren't in
23:30
sure, but like they're just what they weren't core.
23:31
They just turn up. There was an assumption of more
23:35
free space than we have today. So so I think some of it was
23:39
like we're trying to expand that a little bit.
23:41
Don't assume that it's a good thing.
23:43
If you're like, well, I only hang out with Christians
23:45
anymore, you know, if that that's where you've gotten to
23:47
that might not that might be a miss.
23:49
And I say that as someone who finds it deeply challenging
23:53
because I work in a church. Most all the people I work with
23:56
are Christians. All.
23:58
The people I spend life with are Christians, so like for me,
24:01
finding space for people that aren't followers of Jesus is
24:04
hard, but I'd love to see, you know, our church take seriously
24:10
meeting with people in the community that aren't like them.
24:13
The maybe different generations or different backgrounds or
24:17
different actually got text from one of the couples that come to
24:21
to to the South and, and they said, you know, there's this
24:25
elderly guy that they've been meaning to invite for lunch for
24:27
ages. And it was just a little nudge
24:29
for them to say, oh, let's do that.
24:31
And, you know, so that kind of that beautiful sense of, oh, no,
24:36
we're going to take that seriously is a gift.
24:39
And actually you find it's a gift to your kids as well when
24:43
they start being put in an environment with people
24:46
different to them. Yeah, so, so I think, I think it
24:50
was this dream that people would actually just start expanding
24:53
that and not become reliant as much as I am someone who's very
25:00
committed to finding your people and spending a lot of time with
25:03
them. If that comes at the cost of
25:05
never getting together with anybody else because you're kind
25:09
of locked into a group, I think there's a miss there.
25:12
And I think Jesus for all he's, you know, that he's got his 12
25:16
that he's with all the time, constantly finds himself making
25:21
space to be with other people. And, and again, go back to the
25:26
time thing. How much time does Jesus have to
25:28
do that versus US today? Well, it's probably not even on
25:32
the same page. So I think as you were talking,
25:37
I was thinking maybe like one we, I, I think that in a lot of
25:45
ways, the West, well, we've already described the West tends
25:49
to struggle with hospitality more than some other contexts.
25:53
Maybe that's like, duh, like most people be like, yeah, duh.
25:56
We don't do it. Like, like we just described
26:00
these other cultures. Maybe it's not as much about we
26:10
don't put on a big enough feast or we whatever, actually our
26:14
time. Yeah, is the kindness.
26:18
Yeah. Oh, definitely.
26:19
I think like when we post COVID I've talked to multiple people
26:24
who were crazy hospitable pre COVID.
26:28
Oh, very much. And one of them specifically
26:30
called it very, very explicitly said, she said, we've just
26:33
gotten out of the habit and it's been really hard to get back to.
26:38
And this was a person who was like their, her house was
26:41
constantly open to people. And she's like, we haven't
26:43
hosted anyone in over a year. And now I'm trying to like,
26:47
stretch that muscle. And I know my family.
26:49
When she said it, I was like, that's how we feel.
26:52
Like we used to host Life Group all the time and stuff.
26:54
And we just got out of practice and we got complacent with how
27:00
hard it is to host. Yeah, it's the dishes are the
27:04
thing, and the planning of the meal and the expense of the food
27:07
and on them all on and on and on.
27:09
And I think somewhere in that this like it, it felt like COVID
27:18
and all that season gave society this cortisol jolt where people
27:23
have still got that sense of like, it feels like something's
27:26
off, like still haven't like got back to who I used to be.
27:31
And, and like, there's the dream of it and the work and, and I
27:35
think you're so right, you know, you know, I, I remember hearing
27:38
this beautiful story about what the gift of a meal meant.
27:45
It was a story told by Dan Allender and he's out in, in
27:49
part of Africa. And, and they go and this
27:52
culture put this, this village puts on a, a tea ceremony for
27:56
them in a really elaborate like roasted lamb and all these
28:01
different like trippings to it, like this two day event.
28:04
And there's all these kind of like, you know, dances and
28:07
movements and like things to it. And as as they're leaving after
28:12
this two day extraordinary feast, he just throws out a
28:15
statement that he hadn't really thought about, which was like,
28:18
oh man, that must have cost him a lot to do that.
28:21
And the guy that's with him, that's been to the the village,
28:24
you know, tons of times is really connected there says
28:27
like, well, you have no idea. And Dan Allander said, it's just
28:31
the sort of response that made you feel like, I've got to like,
28:34
what? What do you mean by that?
28:36
And, and the guy says to him, well, well, that meal, that 1/2
28:41
day meal probably cost them about a 12th of their income as
28:45
a village for the, for the year. It's probably like a whole month
28:50
of income for everybody to put that on.
28:53
And you know, his instant reaction is, well, we got to go,
28:55
we got to go. We can't let that happen.
28:56
We've got to get, get him, we've got to pay him back.
29:00
And the guy's like, don't you dare.
29:02
Like, are you kidding me? Like you're going to steal them
29:05
of the privilege of that. Like, for them, this was an
29:07
honor, and that's how they see it.
29:09
And, you know, you don't like it because you feel like you're
29:13
taking from someone who's poorer than you.
29:16
Yeah. And so like, you got to suffer
29:17
the kindness is how he phrases. It Yeah, suffer the kindness.
29:21
And I think, yeah, to put it in today's terms, the kindness is
29:25
not the cost. There's loads of people there,
29:26
not everyone, but loads of people that are like, yeah, cost
29:29
of a meal. I don't even think about it
29:31
doesn't even blip on my radar. You know, even if it's 200,
29:34
three, $100 in terms of monthly, like, I'm like, it's fine, but
29:40
but the time to do it, the time is, is a kindness.
29:46
You're receiving time from someone who probably doesn't
29:48
have a lot of margin in their time.
29:50
Yeah, and they're putting it aside to spend time with you.
29:54
Yeah, and I, I think that when when my wife and I started to
29:58
try and cultivate a life group time I get again together and
30:03
host that it was it was a muscle that felt like we had to stretch
30:07
it and and we just called it out for what it was.
30:10
It was like, I hope you feel how much we value you because this
30:17
this is not a thing we do. Like we struggle to do this and
30:22
we like when we meet with our with our life group and it's the
30:26
age of our kids, it's a struggle and sometimes it's hard to get
30:28
together and all these different things.
30:30
But when we meet, you know, I try to light a candle and not
30:36
just any candle, but of an expensive candle that's my
30:41
wife's favorite smell and stuff that cost us obnoxious amount of
30:45
money. We try to eat really good food
30:49
together. It's a it's frankly a stretch
30:52
for our from any of our budgets who are hosting at the given
30:55
time because it's like, no, this is it's so important.
31:01
Yeah. And to to try and prioritize
31:04
that with close friends is is super powerful.
31:08
And then to do that with our with our neighbors and to invite
31:11
other people in. It's so countercultural,
31:14
especially post post COVID. It has the potential of
31:18
communicating something about the love of God to a person that
31:21
maybe very few things could in our current cultural context.
31:26
If you were to invite your neighbors and pull out the the
31:29
trimmings and like and make it this beautiful experience, it
31:34
almost will awaken in people. Like, people don't do this kind
31:38
of thing anymore. Kind of stuff where they're
31:41
like, wow, that was a different experience and I didn't realize
31:44
my soul was craving this. So, so I think, I think one of
31:47
the things that I'd also say about this invitation, inviting
31:53
someone in has it, it, it's a vulnerable place to be and
31:58
vulnerability doesn't feel comfortable to start with at
32:01
least like it's, it's first steps that like you, like I, I
32:04
was having this conversation with, with one of my kids the
32:07
other day. I'm like, like learning to be
32:10
vulnerable is a hard thing to, to, to invite people in and to
32:16
like it leaves you like it's a version of being exposed to a
32:19
degree. It's like, you know, people see
32:21
behind the curtain of everything that you have carefully prepared
32:24
at times. They like they they yeah, they
32:27
see and they know you in a different way after that.
32:30
Yep. And so I think our culture that
32:35
leans towards carefully curated moments shared on social media
32:42
or whatever that look the part on, you know, presenting an
32:48
image and not allowing people to see you in the the the lower
32:53
points. Yeah, it finds that hard by
32:56
nature. It's like, well, I don't want to
32:58
let people in there. And, and, and, and so like,
33:02
especially things like lockdown and COVID gave people a whole
33:06
year to be able to present what they wanted to present to the
33:10
world and to let nobody in. I think I mentioned to you in
33:13
conversation, I don't think on the show, but maybe that that I
33:16
was listening in on a call where someone was talking about their
33:20
fundraising for the, the charity that they've run.
33:22
And they said that we just managed to speak to one of our
33:27
biggest donors for the first time since COVID.
33:32
And he was like, I'll do a Zoom phone call.
33:36
No video. Like hasn't left his house since
33:39
COVID began. He's like, yeah, I just, I'm,
33:43
I'm done. I'm like, I'm pulling out.
33:46
Like I'm done with gathering with people.
33:50
And so you, you know, you think like, well, maybe we're not that
33:52
extreme, but I do think there is a sense of like that he the same
33:56
thing he feels about I don't know how to go back is the same
33:59
thing we feel at times. I don't know how good to go back
34:01
to doing what I was doing. And yet what we were doing was
34:04
life giving and important and necessary.
34:07
And the gift of of having people in our home and visiting others
34:12
is something that really matters.
34:14
Yeah, Yeah, it's and it's, it is a counterintuitive, especially
34:22
given all the variables we've talked about, the financial
34:25
expense, the time expense, the effort, the vulnerability
34:29
expense. So there's like layers and
34:31
layers of of things that would prevent us from doing this
34:34
thing. And yet, like the the latest
34:38
brain science that we know about around neuroplasticity and
34:43
transformation and human thriving is such that human
34:49
human health, even at a physical level, increases exponentially
34:56
if relationships are done. Oh, absolutely.
34:58
Well, yeah. And so if you're human, if
35:02
you're not a human, we'd love to hear from you.
35:05
But if you're human, you need this.
35:07
And that's not an introvert. That's not an extrovert telling,
35:10
trying to force extroversion down an introverts throat, even
35:15
if it's with one or two people. Like we need this because
35:19
transformation can't happen without this kind of relational
35:23
work And this series that is, you know, you're not shoving
35:29
evangelism down our throat with a series.
35:31
It's more about trying to live in the way of Jesus with the
35:35
heart of Jesus with your neighbor in mind.
35:38
That's the series in a lot of ways.
35:40
But if true, evangelism is a huge the humanness of us showing
35:47
up in the humanness of someone who's yet to meet Jesus.
35:51
Yeah. And I, and I think good
35:54
evangelism, which I think is important and we've used, we've
35:58
batted around the Dallas Willard phrase, you know, is the church
36:00
for discipleship and, you know, disciple formation and formation
36:03
for evangelism is that was supposed to take place on Sunday
36:08
morning. I think it happens at its best
36:10
when neighbors surprisingly find that the way of Jesus is really
36:14
compelling when it's lived out by someone around them.
36:18
And so some of the ideas from this for this series came from a
36:23
book where the authors like, you know, surprisingly, one of the
36:26
things that we see over and over again is story form is people
36:30
that live out the way of Jesus in their neighborhood, inviting
36:33
people into the home, caring for them, listening to them.
36:38
And, and occasionally that even leads to a question of like, OK,
36:42
guys, can you just tell me what, what it is about you guys that
36:46
makes you the way you are? Because we're not used to this.
36:51
We're not used to people showing up this intent in interested in
36:54
US or compassionate towards us. The, the, one of the, one of the
36:59
stories that stuck out for me was actually a, a couple that
37:04
put into practice things like praying and listening and
37:09
eating. And, and they did that with some
37:12
people renting in their neighborhood.
37:15
And you know, the, the lady was telling the story says that one
37:19
day we got this letter dropped through our letterbox that was
37:21
just from this couple that said, Hey, we just wanted to let you
37:24
know, we bought a house, bought the house we're renting.
37:27
And you guys are a big reason why, You know, we just wanted to
37:31
do life with people that live like you guys live.
37:33
Yeah. So, so I think the goal is
37:37
actually not just to is not evangelism as much as as a
37:43
church community living in such a way that the way of Jesus is
37:48
compelling to be that we live around.
37:50
I think I've used this, I know I've used this term, this sort
37:54
of loose definition of evangelism with you, but I, I
37:58
sort of in my, a journal entry years ago, I sort of wrote this
38:02
personal definition of evangelism that I love.
38:05
And it's grown on me more because part mainly just because
38:08
it's helped me reframe evangelism because I, for years
38:12
I thought, well, if evangelism is speaking the Romans Rd. on
38:18
street corners, Oh, I just must not have the gift of evangelism.
38:21
And it it almost was like, if that's what it is, I opted out
38:25
of the system as that's not my calling.
38:28
And I just didn't quote UN quote do it.
38:31
And then this definition like reintroduced evangelism to me in
38:35
the most beautiful way. And it's it was this, I think
38:38
health, the healthiest evangelism or maybe biblical
38:41
evangelism is experiencing the ways of the way of Jesus in such
38:45
a way as that you can recommend. Yeah, I remember you said that
38:47
it's a. Beautiful way experiencing the
38:49
way of Jesus. What that means is like you're
38:50
just trying to follow Jesus and experiencing how his way is
38:55
better. So this week was a perfect
38:57
example. You preached A sermon about
38:59
Jesus eating with people. So you're like, Jesus ate with
39:03
people and he ate with people who are not like him.
39:05
I would like to experience it that and you experience it and
39:09
you're like, oh man, Jesus is so wise.
39:11
He's so kind. I highly recommend this to you
39:15
and you. And so it's, it's about this
39:19
multi layered discipleship process where you obey Jesus,
39:23
you find out his way of being human is better.
39:26
When someone asks you, your neighbor asks you like, why are
39:28
you different? You're like, well, because I'm
39:30
trying this whole like Jesus thing and it's like so good.
39:33
And like it's life gaming. Like, for example, I'm friends
39:36
with you now because of it. And I'm a huge fan of you.
39:38
And the only reason I did that is because I'm following Jesus.
39:40
And they're like, whoa, yeah. Or when I was in my sabbatical,
39:46
like the most evangelistic I got with one of my neighbors was
39:49
like, I, I told him I wanted sabbatical.
39:51
And I was, I was a puddle and I was crying.
39:53
I was weeping and about these various things.
39:55
And I and I was wrestling through this my identity thing.
39:58
And. And he was like, wait, what?
40:01
Like why are you telling me this stuff?
40:03
And then he was moved by it because he was going through
40:06
some work struggles. And I was like, yeah, man.
40:08
The solitude thing and how Jesus guided me through this process
40:12
in my own work crisis and all this stuff.
40:14
And he's like, I'm talking about Jesus openly with my neighbor,
40:18
not from a Broman's Road perspective, but because Jesus
40:21
is alive in me and working in me and he's transfer.
40:24
And the guy was like, I haven't had a conversation like this in
40:27
a long time with any human. And I it and then it, the light
40:33
bulb came on. I'm like, am I doing evangelism?
40:36
Yeah, yes, yes. I'm just experiencing it.
40:39
I think you're right. I think the word evangelism now
40:41
is tied deeply to. A technique.
40:45
Goal of having people say a prayer so you can believe that
40:49
they're safe, which is like whatever you think of praying
40:54
prayers as an entryway into a relationship with Jesus that I
40:59
think there is some argument for.
41:01
There is no argument for a prayer being enough to help you
41:09
live in the way of Jesus said one time.
41:11
Like it's just that that's just not anything close to how
41:15
Christianity is described in in in the scriptures.
41:18
Like there's, there's so much more to following Jesus than
41:22
saying something once and do it and nothing happening ever
41:26
again. You know, we when when I was in
41:29
Michigan, we, we were noticing that we were really struggling
41:32
to see people come to faith. Like almost everyone in our
41:37
church was a long time follower of Jesus.
41:40
And so we actually were looking at hiring a director of
41:44
evangelism. We'd had an outreach director
41:46
for years, but this was going to be we'd do that role, but we
41:49
were specifically going to call it director of evangelism to try
41:53
and like nudge in that direction.
41:56
And we hired this guy who was very brash, did not like me
42:00
because I was European, would constantly come and try and like
42:03
rage bait me into conversations about Europe versus America was
42:07
very toxic in the staff to the point that he essentially got
42:11
frog marched out the building at some point.
42:14
But when he first started, he would sit down at our food bank
42:19
and he'd come out of like the, we'd have a meal for all the
42:22
people that came through. And you could say, and he, he'd
42:27
go to this thing and he'd come back and he'd be like, yes,
42:30
seven. You're like, what, 7
42:33
conversions? And of course, none of these
42:36
people ever stepped foot in a church afterwards, certainly not
42:39
our church. And after a while you were like
42:41
7 with a gun. Like conversions to what?
42:46
To shutting you up. I'll pray whatever you pray if
42:50
you stop talking to me, yeah. So, so you, you, you like, you
42:56
experience things done that way. And and he didn't want to know
43:01
anyone. He didn't want to have a
43:02
relationship with anyone. There was no continued
43:04
conversation. He was simply pray this prayer
43:06
with me. And that was all he he had
43:09
planned really. And yeah, people felt like they
43:12
were just they were frog marched into the Kingdom, but that, you
43:16
know, of course, what they what they found themselves in wasn't
43:19
the Kingdom really. And so I think that's what a
43:22
bunch of people in this modern, this cultural moment have seen.
43:27
And they're like, well, it's got to be different to that, right?
43:30
Like when you talk in those terms, you know, I grew up in
43:33
the culture I've talked about before that was like, you know,
43:35
hey, you know, we're going to need to come out to the front if
43:37
you need to follow Jesus. And just just remember, you
43:41
could get hit by a bus on the way home.
43:44
So it better be today like God might never speak to you again.
43:50
And of course, so different from the way of Jesus that seems to
43:56
gently sit with people like and, and then and then for us, like
43:59
I, I kind of finished in this place on on suddenly of like,
44:05
well, Matthew was our model. Like somewhere the, the the the
44:09
gospels together paint this picture of the transition from
44:12
Levi to Matthew. However the language works.
44:15
That's at least one of the ways to read it.
44:17
There's somewhere there's this shift of person that whether
44:20
Matthew's a name Jesus gives him that kind of ties him to this
44:25
new story. Like I think actually Matthew
44:27
means something like loved of God.
44:29
I'm trying to remember exactly what it is, but something close
44:31
to that. Whereas Levi means Levite from
44:35
the old thing. So somewhere there's like a
44:37
naming that's like, OK, it's just something going on there.
44:43
And the first thing he does, he doesn't wait until he's done.
44:45
Alpha doesn't wait till he's figured out.
44:47
Like, he's like, Journey doesn't wait till he's like, oh, I'm
44:50
pretty, yeah, I've thought about this for 12 months.
44:53
Or I know enough stuff to answer apologetic questions without
44:57
even thinking about it. In his culture, he just says,
44:59
yeah, I'm going to throw a party and Jesus will be there and
45:04
everyone I know will be there. So I love I the church that I
45:09
went to when I was in high school, the pastor would tell
45:11
the story every so often, maybe once every six months about his
45:15
conversion. And I still, it's locked in my
45:20
brain because I think it helped shift the target for what
45:24
evangelism required of us 'cause I think for some of us, we get
45:29
the impression that like, I don't know if theology well
45:32
enough to do evangelism. What if they asked me a hard
45:34
question? What if, like all these sorts of
45:36
things, one, it's partially disconnected from what actual
45:41
Evangeline demands of us, which is to love Jesus, try and figure
45:45
out how to follow him in our cultural context.
45:48
And then when people ask us how we're doing life, just talk
45:53
about the thing that we're working on in our relationship
45:55
with Jesus, you know, but so he said, this guy is genius
46:00
photographic memory. The pastor was like super, super
46:04
sharp. He could quote you on any book
46:07
he's ever read all this stuff. So when he was in high school,
46:10
he was like top of his class, all brilliant, brilliant.
46:14
But he was also voted most likely to go to hell into the
46:16
yearbook. And it was like this joke
46:18
because he hated Christians and would like debate Christians and
46:22
would just bury them because he was so smart.
46:28
Well, he got invited to go to a like a Christian concert slash,
46:33
you know, evangelistic event by a Christian.
46:35
And he's like, all right, I'm bored.
46:39
I'm going to go and just blow up this place, right.
46:42
And so they get in this old van as he tells the story, they get
46:46
in this old van and they're driving to this event.
46:48
It's like an hour drive. And he's like, he's in a van
46:51
packed with all these Christians and he's like, I'm going to
46:53
eviscerate them and it's going to be so much fun.
46:56
And so we'd ask this question about the problem of evil or
46:59
whatever and like go at this intellectual and the the, the if
47:02
this was like the hippie sort of day days.
47:05
They're like, and the guy's driving.
47:07
He's like, I don't know man, but you'll see, I don't know man.
47:12
Every question he tried to pose, I don't know man, but you'll see
47:16
he just didn't engage. And so the pastor, the the
47:23
current now pastor just getting more and more frustrated that
47:26
they wouldn't argue with them. They just said you'll find out,
47:29
you'll find out, you'll find out.
47:30
And that was the night he accepted Jesus.
47:32
He goes to this thing, he hears the gospel for the first time
47:36
because they wouldn't let him argue.
47:38
It was all from the platform and he realized that he needed Jesus
47:41
and he embraced faith. And so he would use this
47:43
illustration to say, sometimes all you can do is just say like,
47:48
I'm going to invite you to encounter Jesus and I don't know
47:52
man, you're going to see it. You're going to experience it.
47:54
You're going to sort of find out what that looks like.
47:57
And maybe that's what we're asking people to do is I don't
48:00
know, man, but you'll see that's.
48:02
Brilliant. Yeah, yeah.
48:04
Cool. Anything else, Any other
48:06
challenge you would have for us as a church community, you don't
48:08
get to do this very often for the for three months.
48:11
Isn't that nuts? Challenge us, man.
48:12
What? What's in your heart for us in
48:14
evangelism? I mean, I, I think like, like
48:18
follow the series, like begin with praying for someone and
48:21
maybe God put someone on your heart and there's someone that
48:23
you're like, I just feel that's the person and that's brilliant.
48:25
Like I think just that's how God speaks sometimes.
48:27
Like maybe he nudges you in a specific direction, like and,
48:31
and then like create some space for them to like as you begin to
48:35
pray, I believe, and I've already heard this from people,
48:38
God begins to create coincidences where you maybe get
48:41
a chance to listen to them. You maybe get a chance to step
48:45
into a moment that you almost certainly wouldn't have done had
48:48
you not been praying like that. You'd be more likely to to take
48:51
him up on those opportunities, Invite someone in for a meal,
48:55
like eat with them and like, find ways to just connect and
49:00
like, yeah, ask how you can model the way of Jesus because
49:04
that's certainly going to be the most compelling thing you can do
49:07
in life. If people see that the way of
49:10
Jesus sits well on someone that looks good, it feels good,
49:15
that's that's a compelling thing in a world that recognizes that,
49:19
you know, we often feel this deep level of anxiety and
49:23
comfort with who we are, discomfort with who we are.
49:26
Like when they see people living the way of Jesus, I think people
49:30
start saying, oh, I'm curious. And that's sometimes the part,
49:34
the first step to us eventually maybe sharing a story of some
49:38
kind or explaining what where that journey began with us.
49:41
So good. All right, well, thanks for
49:45
tuning in. I have to find the stop button
49:48
on my phone because my laptop battery died during the show.
49:51
So. Oh.
49:52
Yeah, yeah. Thanks for tuning in.
49:54
We'll see you next week for another episode with Alex and
49:58
then maybe that. No, no, two more after that or
50:02
two including next week. Yeah.
50:04
Then who knows what's going to happen.
50:06
Who? Knows what's going to happen.
50:09
All right, bye. See you.
50:10
Guys, bye.