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Before You Carry a Gun, Make These Decisions · Making Shooters Better

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got to be thinking about it all the time.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: And in every aspect of your life, too often in this business, we only think of, well, if I strap on my gun, I'm ready.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be ready whether you've got a gun on or not.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's like uh uh making breakfast.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's more to making breakfast than just learning how to run a toaster.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Running a toaster is uh uh, of course, an important part, but just because you know how to run a toaster doesn't mean you know how to make breakfast.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I tell my students sometimes anyone who can run a toaster can surely learn how to run any gun I know of.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they're not terribly complicated, but uh there's a whole philosophical overlay that goes with it and a whole set of skills involved in what our civilization expects of us and the kinds of things you can expect from our civilization in response.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: Hello and welcome to Making Tutors Better, brought to you by Laser Ammo.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: Today we're in for a treat.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: For decades, legendary instructors John and Vicki Farnham have taught people how to use firearms.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: But this conversation makes one thing abundantly clear.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: The gun may be the simplest part of self-defense.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: Real preparedness begins long before violence arrived.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's learning to recognize danger, knowing when to walk away, understanding what you're truly capable of, and accepting that every decision you make before, during, and after a defensive encounter carries consequences.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_03: Today we're talking about the decisions that must be made before the fight, the training that prepares you to make them, and why the best defensive encounter may be the one your judgment prevented from ever happening.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_03: Let's roll the episode.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: Hello, John and Vicky.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to the podcast.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: Hello.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having us.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so glad you were able to join me.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_03: This is gonna be absolutely brilliant.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: So I start out every episode asking the same questions, which is gonna be fascinating for you guys.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_03: How old were you both when you started shooting?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Boy.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: I was uh I was a teenager, I think.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Vicky uh was probably around the same age.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh my I come from a family that had very little to do with guns.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm not sure why I got the gene, you know, but uh uh but uh it wasn't a big part of uh my family's life.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: But uh uh when the uh as I got older I developed an interest and uh and the rest of course is history.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_03: Vicky, w you were about the same age?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: I d yeah, my first experience was as a teenager.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um shotgun mostly.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: Really?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: So was that for clays or were you hunting or that was just the one thing you had access to?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Just getting a chance to shoot a shotgun.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and then early um oh early in my adult life hunting, uh big game hunting in Wyoming and Colorado.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I knew more about rifles and shotguns than I knew about handguns originally.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: That's funny, having lived out in Wyoming, it truly is a way of life.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, going out with firearms and hunting to put food on the table, it still amazed me with some of the locals.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_03: Think about and you know, take down uh an elk, for example.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: And that meat would be two to two and a half years worth of meat for the entire family.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's not uh recreation uh for many people.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh it uh and for many of our ancestors, of course.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: It uh it really served a purpose, and we're proud to continue the tradition in our generation.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because it's I hate to say it now with you know us all living in such civilized society, but half the people don't even know where the bloody food comes from.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I I always liked the the work that went into a hunt.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: You you had to go and earn the animal.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, there was always a lot of deep respect when an when an animal's taken and not an ounce of it was wasted.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, even uh uh vegetarians have to come to the uh uh the fact that um something has to die so we can all eat.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and that's just the way the world works.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_03: It is, but I think it gets sterile.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_03: Everybody goes pickups picks up their food at the grocery store and it's packaged, and all the hard work of getting that meat to you is already done.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas I I truly did love going out to hunt for for the purposes of feeding my family, just like the guys I went hunting with.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_03: It was it was very uh cathartic.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, just you, the wilderness, it's trying to find them because that's the other thing.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: If you're looking for elk in the winter, you're like, well, where are they at?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: When I'm in Africa uh teaching, I find in in that society they're not as squeamish as we are when their food looks like what it is.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in Africa, when you order lobster, it'll come uh and it looks like a lobster and it's got its eyeballs on there and the whole rep.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh when you order lobster in America, it comes in a bowl, you know, and it's all homogenized and everything.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: And uh uh we're not reminded that that was actually a creature and uh uh and and what it is.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh when I teach in Mexico, I found the same thing.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: They uh uh they brought out a whole pig and uh it looked like a pig.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And uh in this country, of course, you go to the grocery store and and uh food doesn't look like what it is.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: It looks uh like we're accustomed to uh thinking of what food looks like.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: But uh it was once alive and it had to die uh so we could eat.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_03: So you guys, being literal legends in the firearms community, have been teaching people to defend themselves for decades.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_03: But before we move on to talking about shooting at all, what what do you think being genuinely prepared actually means?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh I I'm I'm going to butt right in and take that because I just made a post this morning um uh about the very thought of if you don't have your shoes on, if you haven't thought that your day needs to uh include being sure that you have real shoes on, you might be in dead in deadly trouble.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we just had a neighbor uh down the street who took a terrible fall because she didn't wear her shoes when she went outside to move her trash bin.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it makes you realize taking care of yourself doesn't just mean knowing how to shoot a gun and how to detect that there's a bad guy around.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: Taking care of yourself and defending yourself starts with putting your shoes on, so to speak.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you're not paying attention every moment of every day and doing what's in your best interest, you may well end up in a very serious situation that will cost you dearly, as happened to this woman down the street.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: So um you've got to be thinking about it all the time and in every aspect of your life.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And too often in this business, we only think of well, if I strap on my gun, I'm ready.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be ready whether you've got a gun on or not.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: The way I sometimes put it, it's it's like uh uh making breakfast.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there's more to making breakfast than just learning how to run a toaster.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh running a toaster is uh uh of course an important part, but just because you know how to run a toaster doesn't mean you know how to make breakfast.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I tell my students sometimes anyone who can run a toaster can surely learn how to run any gun I know of.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they're not terribly complicated, but uh there's a whole philosophical overlay that goes with it, and a whole set of skills involved in uh what our civilization expects of us and the kinds of things you can expect from our civilization in response.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: All of this has to be taught.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's not just how to learn how to run a machine.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's amazing what people have forgotten, I think, along the way when it comes to being ready at a moment's notice.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_03: I can't help it.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: I go out, my former military background won't let me stop scanning.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: And the amount of people I see just wandering around, I don't know, head in the clouds, they're wearing some flip-flops, which I'm sure are very comfortable in the summer heat.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_03: But I can't do it.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_03: I can't go out of my house without some good bloody shoes on.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: It uh it makes me crazy.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: The people uh when you go to an airport, you see people that are barely dressed, uh, you know, stumbling around.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: And uh what happens if your flight gets canceled, bud?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: What happens if you have to walk five miles to anything?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, no one ever thinks about that.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And uh you know, preparedness is one of the aspects of our training.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: Our students have to think in those terms.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: And uh uh they're not taught in schools, and in many cases, they're not taught in their home.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: They come to us uh to learn a set of skills, but whether they expect it or not, they have to get a whole philosophical overlay, uh, or none of it makes sense.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, just having one specific tool on you does not make you prepared to deal with a crisis.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: There's a whole multitude of things that have to also be sort of accounted for if you want any chance at all of being ready.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I, you know, I testify, uh or I should say I assist a lot of lawyers in shooting cases and occasionally testify in trial and deposition.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's not an aspect of the business I particularly like.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'd much rather work with students than work with lawyers.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh makes sense.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I can tell you in the criminal cases in which I'm involved, uh have been involved and are currently involved, uh I can tell you that uh the one piece of evidence that nails the suspect, just makes the case, uh, nine times out of ten is statements made by the accused at the scene.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: People run their mouth, they don't know what to say, they don't know what not to say, uh, and they essentially paint themselves into a corner uh without even knowing they've done it.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the uh uh the police who arrive at the scene can't give you hints, can't tell you, boy, if I were you, I wouldn't say that.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: They're not gonna say anything like that because as police, and of course Vicky and I are both deputy sheriffs here in Colorado, uh I can't provide you with legal advice.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when when uh when someone says, uh, do you think I need a lawyer?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Look, bud, I I I'm sorry, I can't provide you with legal advice, so I can't answer that question.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: In a very real sense, you're on your own.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh just like when you testify, you get up that stand, no one's gonna help you.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: You are on your own.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh when you make a mess of things, uh, we can't shove all that back into your mouth.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and this is something people have to know in advance, and and very few actually do.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a big part of our training, of course, to is to prepare people uh for this.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's like climbing Mount Everest.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh getting to the top was only half the battle.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: You have to get down.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and most people uh who climb in the Himalayas die on the way down.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: They don't die on the way up.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and it's uh you have to start thinking of the whole game, not just the first half.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and it's also understanding how you are physiologically, psychologically, and emotionally going to respond to the stress of the incident that just happened.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I think people underestimate how scared they're going to be, how much pressure they're going to feel like they're now under with the scrutiny of law enforcement.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_03: There's a, I think, a desire to want to plead their case and already begin somewhat testifying as to the reasons why this even happened.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_03: This cathartic release that they feel like they're they're giving themselves is ultimately someone going with a notebook, yeah, thanks for that.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_03: This is yeah, this is great.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: Always bad advice.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, you gotta remember all these officers that could be wearing body cameras.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, when you say something incriminating, I can't pretend I didn't hear it.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's all it's all recorded, you say and it's all written down.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: And um uh so again, most people have never thought about this, they're not aware of this.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: They don't know what to say, they don't know what not to say.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: This is an important part, at least of our training programs.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, we're gonna shoot guns and so on and so forth, but you're gonna learn a lot of other stuff that you may not even be aware of and didn't didn't even know was necessary.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_03: You already train very hard to make the shot, but do you also train to make the decision to shoot or not shoot?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: At the range, you usually know when the drill's gonna start.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: You know what the target is.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: You probably even know when the drill's gonna be over.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_03: The real world gives you none of that.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: It gives you uncertainty, movement, innocent people, changing threats, and sometimes a reason not to shoot at all.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: That's where the smokeless range VST Pro comes into its own.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: Whether you're training at home individually or teaching students, working with armed security, preparing law enforcement officers for the real world, VST Pro lets you train through the realistic scenarios that challenge judgment, awareness, and decision making, not just marksmanship.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_03: Because hitting the target is only part of being prepared.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_03: The harder question is knowing when to act, when to not act, and when the situation has changed completely.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_03: Don't wait for the real world to give you your first scenario.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: Train for it now with a smokeless range VST Pro.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_03: Visit LaserAmo.com, select simulators and targets, and then smokeless range to find out more.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: And now back to the episode.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_03: So do you have, dare I say, something that's somewhat boilerplate as a verbal response or action someone should take immediately following an incident like this?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_03: Is there a step-by-step that you kind of provide, even if it's just a general outline?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And the word is yes.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: I I give students what we call tape loops.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: This is your tape loop.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, this is what you say and no more in the short term, as you say.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh all the details uh will come out weeks or months later.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: At the scene, uh misperceptions are very common.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and again, once it comes out of your mouth, we can't shove it back in.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's truly said, you will never tell the same story twice.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in any kind of traumatic incident, uh you'll have little splotchy memories, and then as the days and weeks and sometimes months, and then uh yeah, I think it's been adly dedicated probably for the rest of your life, details are gonna pop into your mind.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm not enough of a psychiatrist to give you all the technicalities of this, but uh from my personal experience I can tell you that uh uh, for instance, when I was in Vietnam years ago, uh details of my experience have never left me.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm I'm sure they never will.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh to this day, I get what's the right word, flashbacks, if that's the right word.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure that's not even the right word.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Little details that I haven't thought about for years, maybe you've never thought about.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that was 60 years ago.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I have to believe all this is perfectly normal.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's the way your body and your mind deals with a in a normal way with an abnormal set of circumstances.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um so knowing that, uh, to answer your question, your you know, your original question, yes, we give students uh tape loops, here's what you say, or you know, words to this effect.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: And uh we actually uh practice it uh when we get to the range.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: We practice these verbal responses so they have the experience of actually saying it.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because there is no substitute for actually putting that into practice.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, you especially trying to mirror the pressure that person's gonna be under and the amount of fear and stress they're gonna be experiencing.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_03: Very hard to replicate, but it even some measure of that is gonna be helpful should they ever find themselves in that situation.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: But unfortunately, that's one thing we can't give them in a training session.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: We can't take them to that moment when they have to make the decision.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: We can't can't take them to the moment where they press the trigger.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: They can't we can't take them to the moment of that not and I don't want to say it's always fear.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: I want to say it's that moment of deciding.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: And um although I've never shot any I've never shot a two-legged person that was trying to kill me.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: I have shot a four-legged uh being that was trying to kill me.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: And and it was only then that I realized how inadequate the training can be, because you cannot take the person to that moment in time where they have to press the trigger.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's very profound, and I can't give that to my student.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: We do the best we can.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: We uh uh the we get you to think about it in advance.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and we try to, in at least in our training, we try to provide you with at least rehearsals.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Happily, our students uh who have had that experience uh thus far have done pretty well.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I can tell you it's never gonna be perfect.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's always gonna be people who are gonna point out where you could have done it better, and they'll be right.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh fortunately, the law doesn't require you to be perfect.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: The law requires you to be reasonable.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever the hell, whatever the hell that means.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh so I I try not to give the we tried not to give the student the impression this is impossible.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh people do it every day.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh it won't be perfect, but it will be reasonable, and the system will look on it as such.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I don't think we ever get over things.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't like that expression, you know, get over it.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we get over things.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think we get past them.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we move on.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: We it we put it in the past and we move on, and that's that's the best we can do, but it's always going to be a part of you.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I had a very interesting interview recently with Von Kleem, and he is legal counsel and an expert witness for and with for science.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: They do a lot of research on human behavior and performance.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Very familiar.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: I my very first question to him was define reasonable.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_03: So if you haven't listened to that episode, you should listen because he very astutely and eloquently described what reasonable might mean from a variety of perspectives.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: And it was I expected an in-depth answer.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: As an expert of his caliber, I expected.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_03: I got way more than that, and I think so did anyone who's listened to this episode, in him explaining what reasonable might mean.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's everybody else involved in this case who is judging what you had at maybe seconds or less than seconds to make a decision on acting.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_03: They now have days, weeks, months, maybe years to second guess everything you did and look at it as is this reasonable through their perspective and their bias.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: So that episode is well worth exploring because he really did a great job of highlighting how different reasonable can be from one person to the next, from prosecution to defense.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: His answer was probably a lot better than mine would be.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_03: It was better than anything I think I've ever heard in the past.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: It it really was a phenomenal answer, and one of those that I hope resonated with people with okay, these are the things I need to truly be considering outside and well beyond just being able to shoot.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I we should point out at this point, a lot of our training uh uh focuses on avoidance of uh what we call aggressive disengagement.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: Our our good friend and colleague, Andrew Baraka, you know, he lists his his five his five pillars of uh uh uh legitimate self-defense, which I have shamelessly uh you know abscondered with and taught to my students because I think it's very, very competent.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: And he lists things, you know, innocence, iminence, proportionality, reasonableness.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: But that last one, avoidance.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we spend most of our time on.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: I try to convince our students, as does Vicky, that most of the lethal force incidents that you're ever likely to be involved in in your life are probably avoidable.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh a fight avoided is far better than a fight won.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so our students, we confront them with this that you're gonna have to look.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Look at your long lifestyle, the places you go, the people you associate with, um, the kinds of things you say to people.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's uh you know, it's not just a matter of, well, I didn't start it.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you may have aggravated, maybe something you said just set someone off.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, was that reasonably foreseeable?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's like the uh the panhandler approaches you and asks for ten bucks.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: And your response is uh once you get a job, but well, that may reflect my true feelings, uh, but I don't think that's smart.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he gets upset, uh, he pulls a knife, you pull a gun, a gun fight ensues.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I can tell you right now, prosecutors do not like that.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: They do not like that.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna say, look, all you had to do is walk away.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: All you had to do is say something like we teach, I'm sorry, sir, I can't help you.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: You have a nice day.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no one's gonna accuse you of starting a fight or aggravating the fight.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Again, there's an important part of our training.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh when you get involved in a lethal force incident uh on a sidewalk in front of the drunken monkey bar at 1 30 in the morning, how much sympathy do you think you're gonna get from a jury?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: From a prosecutor?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now, is that illegal?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's not even the right question.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: The right question was, is that smart?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Do smart people do that?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I can tell you right now, prosecutors and uh judges and juries, the question they're gonna one of the first questions they're gonna ask is, what in the world were you doing there?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: What were you doing there?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: What were you doing there that time of night?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: What were you doing there running your mouth uh and just fairly inviting uh challenges?
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh, this is the kind of thing we need to start thinking about in advance.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you want to be one of us?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: You want to carry a gun around?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, then we have to start thinking about places you go, people you associate with, the manner in which you speak.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so as I said uh earlier, uh one of my best offenses of being a colossal bore, uh, at which I'm a great success, I'm told.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh because it's legal, because it's moral, because it's right, all those questions are irrelevant.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's smart.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and what your lawyer would, the way he would put it is this is what's in your best interest, bud.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh wow, is that legal?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Is that moral?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: You're asking the wrong questions.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's smart.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know how our system works.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Innocent until proven indigent.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we have the best justice money can buy.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I'll tell you right now, you can't afford it.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: And uh uh every prosecutor out there knows they have the power to bankrupt you.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: So let's rewind this back to the beginning.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: What were you doing there?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Is this avoidable?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I shouldn't go places like that.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I should be careful about what comes out of my mouth.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh all this is part of making breakfast.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it has nothing to do with the operation of a pistol.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's part of your lifestyle.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: What's in your best interest?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh maybe all these lethal force incidents we read about in movies and in novels and all that, maybe in my case, maybe they're avoidable.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: So one of the questions I was going to ask both of you is when someone comes to you for defensive firearms training, what do you want to understand about that person before you ever start teaching?
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_03: But I'd like to twist that a little bit because in asking that question, in exploring an understanding of a student, there is some measure of self-awareness and introspection needed for them to even answer that question honestly.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: For them to be able to say, are they ready?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: Are they planning?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: Are they living a and making smart decisions?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: They're not out at 2 a.m.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_03: gobbing off because they've had a few drinks whilst carrying a gun, which unfortunately happens.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I think the question becomes how self-aware is this individual?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: So do you make part of your training with students who come in this an exploratory uh journey for them in terms of their self-awareness as much as their capacity to shoot defensively?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we often start with a question, which is uh what you have just uh articulated, but we say it a little differently.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: We say, Have you actually claimed your own magnificence?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you can't believe that you're worth protecting, then what we're about to do has no meaning.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: And believe it or not, there are people who when they stop and think about it, they'll say, I never thought of it that way.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: I I never thought that I had to appreciate myself and that myself is worth protecting a hundred percent.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: Many people will say, I'll protect my family, I'll protect my wife, I'll protect my husband, I'll protect my children, but I'm expendable.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, no, no.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: No, we bring it back to them.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: You have to accept that you're magnificent.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can accept you're magnificent and worth protecting, then we can go on because otherwise uh it's an exercise in in nothing.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if you're not important to your children, if you're not important to your spouse, then you're not important to yourself.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and you won't be able to do everything that's necessary to protect it's wonderful to be sacrificial.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it seems that that seems to have great um uh value, but no, you have to value yourself also.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because if no one else is around for you to protect, if it's just you, you have to be up to that job too.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: And people don't think of it that way.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: They think they're protecting other people first.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: The way I sometimes put it, this is not the stuff of which martyrs are made.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Does does that make sense to you?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: It does, because I've taught self-defense and a number of different combatants over the years, I've found for the most part, and I hate to speak in generalities, but generally speaking, that was a mindset issue with most women when it comes to self-defense.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_03: They would fight to protect their children.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_03: They would fight to protect their family, absolutely.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_03: But when asked if they were capable of great violence as maybe maybe needed in defense of themselves, there's always seemed to be a barrier to how violent, right?
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_03: There's something somewhat detached and clinical from shooting someone at a distance.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I think in that removal or within that distance, there is a sense that I'm sort of insulated from this event or I'm protected from the um the psychological impact of fighting back.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_03: But violence, whether fired from a gun or with the use of a knife, or even with your fingernails popping somebody's eyes out because that was the only option open to you.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_03: Violence is violence.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: And if it is a tool or something you should find yourself having to rely on in order to defend yourself, you should be capable of great violence when needed.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_03: And great violence to protect yourself.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_03: And it's always been hard to get people to sort of transition from, I'll do it for others, but I don't, I'm not sure if I can do it for myself, which I have found mostly is with women.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: But then you have to take them another step farther and you have to help them define what's the difference between violence and force.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Violence is many women are opposed to violence.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: They don't want to be violent to someone who's been violent to them.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: But if you remind them you're not being violent, you are exercising a force against violence.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: You are using your force.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: And and again, it makes them stop and think.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, violence is is that act against me, which which is not rational, which is not reasonable.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: But if I respond with some kind of force, which may be clawing with your fingernails or using a gun, either one, that is my defense against violence.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so if I'm using force and he's using violence, then maybe I can justify that in my mind that I'm not being the violent person.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: And you you're right, women are definitely uh challenged with accepting that that concept that they would use violence.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: But if you tell them you're using force against violence, that gives gives them an entirely different perspective.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've allowed the other side to hijack our language.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh when they say, well, uh uh you're teaching people to use violence.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I say, not so.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Not so.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we don't use violence.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: We use force.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Force is defined as to compel by physical means.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Violence is defined as force used inappropriately.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: Violence comes from violate, it is a problem for criminals.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so, as Vicky pointed out, we uh uh tell students uh we don't use violence.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: We use force, including gunfire, including deadly force.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but uh when people say, well, you're no different than criminals, you use violence.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: Not so.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Not so.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: We don't use violence, and we're not violent people.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we use force uh when appropriate.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is uh a way we address their arguments that uh uh we're no different than uh than uh criminals.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I I take great offense at that at that accusation, and that's the way I that's the way we address it.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_03: Kind of funny, isn't it?
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_03: Everything is about framing.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_03: How is it presented?
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_03: But back when um I first studied using firearms, I could not stop myself from saying weapon.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_03: Because in the military, everything that we picked up to use to fight was a weapon.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, going through all the various classes I went through, I got chastised all the time.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's not a weapon, it's a pistol, or it's a rifle, or it's a knife, or whatever the case may be.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_03: It was all about the framing.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_03: Couldn't get past.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's a weapon.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: If I've got it in my hands and I'm not sure what I'm saying, as you say, people take this too far sometimes, you know.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm not gonna turn my language upside down to satisfy some whoa moron.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: But uh but um uh I think you know uh the the word violence comes from violate.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh I think uh as Vicky pointed out, when we talk about this, uh uh we're not violent and we don't use violence.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: We use force.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Appropriate force under the circumstances.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: And uh uh I that's the way I've come to teach it anyway.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: And women are very literal.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if you say violence, the picture that comes to their mind uh is ugly.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if you use the word force, well, that is something that will impede what's coming towards you.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: I can use force to resist, uh, but it does not create that same picture.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that same visceral response of ugliness.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: It it actually creates an image of power if you say force, I can use force.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I love that distinction.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: And power is different than ugly violence.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_03: So how do you guys, both of you, prepare someone to recognize that an actual imminent lethal threat is is on the horizon or approaching?
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like what uh curriculum or tools do you give someone to recognize that a threat is about to escalate to something that's potentially life-threatening?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first you have to teach them how to be observant.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you you can't just tell them, oh, watch, watch for this uh or that.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: You have to teach them how to observe that something is out of place.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: They're drive down the street and and approach your driveway.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh is that strange car supposed to be parked in front of your house?
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh is something there that shouldn't be there or is something that's missing that should be there?
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it and if you don't especially with women and with men, some men too, if you don't start preparing them by saying, What are you seeing?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: It won't matter what's in front of them.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: They won't see it.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: You have got to first teach them how to be observant and be looking at what's right really happening in front of them.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's a whole thing.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we concern ourselves with facts, not feelings.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you feel any way you want, that won't change anything.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we have to be uh, as Vicky said, we have to be alert, aware, and we have to accept what we're saying.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: And in this day and age, too often people don't see what's right in front of them.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: Their their mind is elsewhere, and so they're not like you said, the moment you walk out the door, you're you're scanning, you're looking around.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: There are such a small percentage of people who really function that way.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: You do, I do, John does, sometimes.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: I I say that because sometimes I'll say, Did you see that?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what I was distracted by that Victoria's secret model.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: I just but but in this day and age, people just they really don't look because their mind is always someplace else other than right in front of observing what's right in front of them.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so it in my classes, that's where I like to start.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: Did and I teach a class in Wyoming.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: We have to drive, oh, we drive maybe four miles from this wonderful hotel in Wyoming out to a range in the middle of the range of Wyoming, and I give them a series of things to look for uh on the way out there.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or I will ask them to tell me what they saw and what they observed.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the first couple of times out to the range, it's virtually nothing.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then pretty soon they can tell me about which animals they saw or what was happening um on the hillside in in the distance, uh, what the clouds were like, what the weather was like.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: But you have to teach them how to do that.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: And and if you don't teach them how to do that, the danger signals will go right past them uh in in the midst of the biggest problem.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: Ask the woman who was a student uh a year ago who got stopped by the Wyoming state trooper because she didn't see the speed limit sign.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: And what happened?
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: He saw her, but she didn't see him or the sign.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and that was quite an eye-opening experience for her to get stopped in a town of 250 people by a Wyoming state trooper because she didn't read the speed limit sign.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, the next step is to have the courage to uh to act.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh when uh when you see this danger, to turn to your partner and say, you know what, we're getting out of here.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna find another restaurant.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh this this place is making me nervous that I don't like the looks of that guy over there.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh instead of just dismissing it, and uh, don't worry about it.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: No, I when you're one of us, uh your head is up, you're looking around, and uh uh when you see something that might might represent a genuine threat, that's the time to get up and leave.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I have interviewed many mugging suspects, uh mugging victims, I should say.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and the first uh the first thing you say is he came out of nowhere.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, he didn't.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: He he you were selected because you weren't paying attention.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: That that's why you were uh selected for victimization.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh so when you're one of our students, we try to break you out of that paralyzing uh mindset that our society has imposed on you.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: And uh when you want to be one of us and uh you want to carry a gun around, then you, as Vicky said, if you remain in that mindset, you've accomplished nothing.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you you've got to break out of that uh for anything we teach you to be useful.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so enlightening to them when they start paying attention to what's going on around them, and then when you present them with a a problem on the range, with a a um scenario on the range, they can so quickly pick up on the danger signals because now they're really looking and watching, and that carries away with them when they leave the range.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if we don't give them the education, it will only be evident to them on the range that there's danger.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: Our goal is to make sure they can see danger wherever they are and and perceive that they need to perhaps be prepared to act.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that in of itself may create a situation where you can avoid, as John said, the avoidance then comes in.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: Can I avoid meeting that danger?
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: Can I get out of there without having to act and respond to that violence with my use of force?
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's all connected together, and sometimes that's not always true in classes because everybody wants to go and shoot and put holes in paper or or make the steel ding.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's what they want to go to class for.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: They don't want to go to class necessarily for the whole picture because that's not very exciting.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_03: I know it's probably one of the areas that I found most frustrating over the last 20 or 30 years of teaching situational awareness and how to scan and how the brain works.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_03: How the limitations of our visual capacities, how we might fall short at a moment that you know is the worst moment for that to possibly happen.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: I did a TEDx on it, actually, which was I thoroughly enjoyed doing because it was at a college here in North Carolina.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_03: And the students loved it because they're like, I never realized my vision worked this way and all the things that they were missing.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_03: Very good.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, okay, great.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_03: But one of the things I've always I've had questions over the years with people, well, how do you stay vigilant without becoming paranoid?
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I have an answer for this, but I would love to know how do you balance teaching people to be attentive without them sort of falling over the side of, okay, well, now we're into being fearful.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's a the balance is the right word.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh risk attaches to everything we do, from driving cars to going about our daily business.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we try to avoid severe and obvious risks, but not all risks are avoidable.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh if I thought I could avoid all risks, I wouldn't carry guns around.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so yes, it's a it's a balance and one we fine-tune every day.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's been said a superior gunman is best defined as someone who uses his superior judgment to keep him out of situations that would require a display of his superior skills.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh So uh but you can go overboard in any direction.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: No doubt about it.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh as I tell my students, you know, risk attaches to having guns in your life.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no matter what procedure you use, no matter how you handle guns, a gun accident may be in your future.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: No matter how careful you try to be, guns are dangerous.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you could say the same thing about cars or other things we handle.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: On the other hand, risk and attaches to uh not having guns in your life.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: You don't get a risk-free life.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: And in the end, the bacteria win anyway.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so in the interim, I want to expose myself to every worthwhile thing this life has to offer.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: I want to achieve, I want to accomplish, I want to influence other people, I want to fall in love, I want to have children, I want to have a family, uh, I want to do all those things.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: Are any of those things risk-free?
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the alternative, sit in your room and play with yourself.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so uh you use the word balance, that probably is the best way to describe it.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, we don't get a risk-free life.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we try to avoid extreme risk.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: We try to stay alert, as Vicky pointed out, uh, to make that possible.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh when worse comes to worse, well, then we can clamor like champions.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh uh and maybe have a book written about us, I suppose.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't look forward to anything like that.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to be confined to a footnote or two.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and uh uh go about my life in as uh low profile a manner as uh as I can.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but uh it that's what we teach.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, although we we all of our students have their own lives and places they go and people they associate with, careers and so on and so forth.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: Let's look at what you do.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: It won't be perfect, but maybe there may be some things we can do here to uh lessen your exposure uh to uh uh to acts of violence on the part of other people that you may have to respond to.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: But we like to have them develop their own sense of okay, what am I seeing and what does it mean?
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: And how must I react?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and can we help them do that in many aspects of their lives, not just in in seeing that danger?
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, danger lurks everywhere for us in different forms.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: Go back to Wyoming and the weather.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: I have I've lived out here a lot longer than John has, and I have what I call my internal blizzard warning.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um I can read the sky, I can read the snowfalling, I can read the road conditions, and many times I will say to John, we're pulling off now and getting a room.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_03: Now because a smart man, you follow the directions.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, because I drive.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: So he has no choice.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: But but the point is, uh, could we keep going?
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we could get keep going.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and maybe we'd we'd get through and maybe we won't.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: But uh again, if I can stop and avoid crossing Elk Mountain where I can't see the end of the hood of my car, I will stop before that happens.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and if we are sitting in a restaurant and a violent uh argument breaks out between two people, or we see the police looking around the corner, inspecting someone who's in in that room that we're in, and we can get out of that room before the police come in, uh, or the the fist fight that's gonna break out, and the guy is perhaps reaching for a weapon and we can turn and get out of there, if we can teach our students that, then we are preparing them to avoid, but if they really have to make that decision, then we have also prepared them that yes, you draw, find your sights, and press the trigger.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: If all of the conditions are such that you have to make that decision to press the trigger.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and I did that.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: I did that.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: If I hadn't have done that, I wouldn't be sitting here and Farnum would have had to have found a new driver.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: Heaven forbid.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because that wild hog would have run right over the top of me, and at the very least, he would have broken both my legs.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but it wouldn't have taken much at all for him to have killed me.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: And the shot went off at three feet.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's how close he was to me when the shot went off, because it couldn't find my sights.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: The glare of the sun prevented me from seeing my sights.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: And when I finally he finally got close enough and I could change the angle of my gun and I could see my sights, I knew I had to press the trigger.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and the training saved my life.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_03: How big is that animal?
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh 700 pounds.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: He was a world record.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: His he had four four tests, they came in at just under 30 inches.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm married to a celebrity.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: And and I have a picture.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: I I could send you a picture if you doubt that, but it really is true.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_02: Believe it.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: But what what really astounded me, Terry, was that when it was all over and done with and the hog was laying there on the ground and I sat on top of him to get my picture taken, was that I wasn't trembling, I wasn't crying, I wasn't going around saying, Oh my gosh, what just happened?
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: I was absolutely calm.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because I had trained for that moment.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, I had trained for that moment.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: And when I asked, I don't know if you ever heard of Alexa Artwall, she's a forensic psychologist who works with police who've been involved in in many things.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: A couple of years later, I was able to sit down with Alexis because I was perplexed that I wasn't scared.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: And she just looked at me and rolled her eyes.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'd known her a number of years by then.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: She just looked at me and rolled her eyes and she said, Vicki, that's what training's for.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: There's no room for fear when you've been trained.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that's our goal to make sure that they can perceive that first that they want to save themselves.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: Then that they can perceive danger, that they can avoid it.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: But if they can't avoid it and they have to actually act, that they can find their sights, align their sights, make the decision that they need to fire, and then press the trigger and do it without falling apart.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's the goal.
• 51:22
  unknown: Yeah.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_03: So it was always interesting when somebody would ask, how do you maintain vigilance without becoming paranoid?
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_03: I would obviously throw it back at them, but my question to them was how much attention is acceptable to you?
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_03: What level of attention do you think you could live with day in and day out to be consistent?
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, invariably, you know, I would say, okay, let's say, like me, I'm scanning as much as I possibly can at any given time of day, not but not because I'm paranoid, but because I like being aware of what's going on.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_03: I actually enjoy scanning and looking and seeing who's up to what.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_03: But let's say, comparative to that, where would they put themselves kind of on a on a spectrum of, okay, this is acceptable?
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_03: And we could usually find a number, whatever that number is, right?
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_03: If I'm 100 for whatever reason, and they're they could say, well, I could be 20% more attentive to the environment and live with that.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_03: That could, that is my consistent number.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, perfect.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_03: Then I want 20% application of that focus at specific times of day when the risk is probably a little bit more pronounced.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_03: Let's say, just as one example, you have just left a building, it's a shopping mall, you're heading to your car.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_03: That is one of those instances where I would like you to go to at least 20% optimally, if I could encourage 40 or 50% full commitment to the scan.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_03: Brilliant.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_03: But give yourself, and by that I mean your commitment to the scan, 20% in that at that time, at that specific area in that specific environment.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_03: And it was amazing to watch people start to look at a contextual number and recognize, oh, I can do that.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_03: Now I don't have to be him.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_03: I don't have to be looking at absolutely everything that goes by, but I can do this.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, that's all you need.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's beginning of the journey, understanding what is acceptable to you, and then implementing that consistently, you know, day in and day out.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_03: Ultimately, that will lead you, ironically, to a place where you are way more attentive than the general populace and you've done it without being paranoid.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: And particularly particularly in those situations where you need to be.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: And they will and they can find that it's rewarding to them because they'll see things that they would have missed otherwise that happened right in front of them, but they've missed them for years and years and years.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then if you encourage them, I'd like to encourage them to be a hundred percent.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_03: I would love if they were 100%, but I'm like baby steps.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: But but I'm I might have to incorporate that.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'll say, can you do 20%?
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to see that between here's the goal, between the hotel and the range.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to see this particular thing.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I give them no clue as to where it is, but I tell them what it what it is.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm looking for 100%.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: And pretty soon they're pretty close to 100%, but they are so thrilled with themselves that they can do this.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: And and they never thought they could, or they never even thought about doing it.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and so, yes, it I think it has to start there.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: Learning to align the sights and press the trigger, that's a that's a skill, but uh observation that should be a lifestyle.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: We keep talking about aligning the sights.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh most of our students have optics now, so that's true.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: I dated I just dated myself, sorry.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_03: But that's funny.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_03: I just did an LE conference in Nashville, and we it was a tactical officers association.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_03: It was the national conference, and I can't tell you how many of them came up and they were shooting the recall pistols on the simulator, and the first words out of their mouth when they pulled pushed the gun out was, oh, iron sights.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, you're gonna have to engage aligning the sights.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_03: But it was the first thing he said because so many people were running those red dots.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and yeah, that's as a trend that may be uh I think it's here to say for many people, but uh uh an ability to use iron sights is still critical when your battery goes dead.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_01: Or someone hands you uh a gun.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: We do a drill called Battlefield Pickup at our, you know, at our courses where you get to shoot a number of different guns.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, maybe the gun that saves your life won't be that gleaming monstrosity that sits in a mahogany box.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_01: It may be the gun that slides toward you across the bar room floors through the mud and the blood and the beer, and you scoop it up, and uh suddenly it's the best gun in the world.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, when you're a competent operator, uh you can run any gun.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I have my favorites.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: I like some guns better than others, and maybe over some adult beverages someday, I'll confess, you know, which gun I like better than others.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: But uh uh I try very hard as an instructor, as does Vicky, not to sound as if I'm trying to sell you something.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is the gun you need.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, there are lots of fine choices out there, and um uh most all of them are gonna be perfectly adequate.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the idea that is I can't be successful unless I have a particular gun.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think you painted yourself into a corner.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I can fight with any gun.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: I can fight without guns.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we don't spend our time looking for an excuse to lose.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: We spend our time finding a way to win.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the difference between the live professional and the dead amateur.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_03: That's great.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_03: Vicky, you've spent a lot of time challenging the way instructors traditionally teach women.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_03: So, what do you think the firearms training world was, I don't know, fundamentally misunderstanding about female students?
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you answer the question, I'll be right back.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because there are things that men understand intuitively about the concept of hitting the target that women do not understand intuitively.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so when a male instructor only knows what he knows and he's trying to teach her and she doesn't know what he knows, we we don't have a meeting of information.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's like ships passing in the night.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: And um, nobody had explained that to male instructors.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: And when I started in this industry with John, it was a couple of years into my working with John that male firearms instructors in the law enforcement end of things started asking me why can I teach men how to shoot guns?
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I can't teach women.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: I say the same words to the women that I say to the men and they fail.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then they then this one particular instructor said the magic words.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: He said, Why can't I teach women?
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't say why can't those dumb women learn.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: He said, Why can't I teach women?
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it took some research on my part because I had learned how to shoot.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: It took some research on my part to discover what that initial fundamental difference is between why men can pick up a gun and with very little verbal instruction can learn how to hit a target and women don't.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: Now, it's not 100% of women, but about 85% of women.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: About 15% of women get it instantly, but 85% don't.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_00: And vice versa for men, there's about 15% of men who don't understand.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_00: You want to know the secret?
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I do.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I'll get my pen and paper out, so please go.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, then let me present this to you.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you were in a classroom, uh, like you were just at the uh police conference you were just in, and I was at the front of the room, and I chose you along with about two or three other guys, and I would say to you, Terry and guys, I need you to create a circle out of chairs right up here in the front of the room.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_00: What would be the first thing that you would do?
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_03: Push the other guy out of his chest so I can use it.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know, depends on how much of a fight he picks up.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I've you've got two two other guys, three other guys helping you.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_00: What's the first thing you guys are gonna do?
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_03: With the chairs, I'm gonna bring them to the front of the room.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and do what?
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_03: Make a circle, I suppose.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, make a circle.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly what would you you would do.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: Would you talk to them?
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_03: Probably not.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, probably not.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: You're exactly right.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_00: You would not talk to them.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_01: What conversation is that?
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: The three or four of you just picked up.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna walk up there and we're gonna pick up the chairs and we're gonna make a circle.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: But if I asked three or four women to make a circle out of chairs, what would they do?
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_03: Talk to each other first?
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, they would talk to each other first, exactly.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_00: As reasonable human beings would do.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_03: Nothing reasonable about the male part of this equation.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: No, there is something that's reasonable about it.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: And here's the secret.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because all of you guys would have instantly had a picture in your brain of the circle made out of chairs, and all and you knew all you had to do was pick up the chair and put it in position, and the other chairs would fall in position, and pretty soon you'd have a circle.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: And you didn't have to talk to each other because you all had the same picture in your mind.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, the male brain, the right side of the male brain, is very highly developed in the concept of spatial relationships, how objects are related to each other in space.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's how you can throw a basketball and make it land in the circle of the hoop.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's how you can kick a football and have it go with any precision, have it go through the the uprights of a field goal.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: You have that concept of spatial relationships.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's why you can build skyscrapers and why you can work on automobile parts, uh, engines.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's how you can compose music.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_00: All of those are spatial relationships.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_00: Women, the right side of the female brain, is not highly developed in spatial relationships.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_00: We understand how objects are related to each other in space on both sides of our brain, and there has to be a connection between the two sides of our brain to come up with that concept.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_00: If somebody explains it to us verbally and then shows us physically, oh, that's what you mean.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_00: If I had a dollar for every single female police officer I have taught in my career who said, align the side, the front sight, and uh align the sights?
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_00: What do you mean, align the sights?
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_00: I've always been told to watch the front sight.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I watched the front sight when I pressed the trigger.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: But nobody told me to align the front sight and the rear sight and continually to align the front sight and the rear sight while I pressed the trigger.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_00: And they forgot to tell her to keep that sight aligned on the spot on the target she wanted to hit, and they forgot to tell her to keep it aligned with her own eye.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_00: All they said was, watch the front sight.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then when they missed, she's they said, You bashed the trigger.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, you anticipated.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_00: But they never explained to her what it meant to bash the trigger or what it meant to anticipate.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_00: They never told her that the sights came out of alignment with each other and the spot on the target and her eye.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so she never figured out why she missed.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know how many women, female officers I have have encountered who had had their gun taken away from them, who came close to having their retirement denied to them because nobody explained how you kept the sights aligned with each other and the spot on the target and their eye while they smoothly pressed the trigger so that they didn't disrupt that alignment and they failed and they failed and they failed and they failed.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_03: They weren't failing.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_03: The instructor was failing.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_00: The instructor was failing because the instructor did not know how to tell her what she was doing wrong, because they were using the same words that had been traditionally passed down from, I don't know, from the time of the Revolutionary War.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_00: Watch your front sight with no indication of what else you should be doing.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so when she only watched her front sight, she missed over and over and over and over.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_00: And who was the culprit?
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_00: She was the culprit because nobody understood how to teach her.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody understood all the words to make the total picture of her, of her being in charge of aligning the sights and pressing the trigger and hitting the spot that she needed to hit.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_03: Better communication.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_03: No, don't be sorry.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's great.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's one of the things that's probably overlooked the most is yes, there is an expectation that because you're right.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_03: The minute you said, what are you going to do with the chair, in my head, I'm like, this is.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_03: Trap.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_03: Because I've already visualized exactly where the chairs are going and I don't need to talk to the other three guys before we go put the chairs in.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_00: One time I was teaching in a police department, this officer took his fist and he pounded it on the table and he said, But it's common sense.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_00: Why doesn't she understand it?
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's common sense.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, she doesn't understand it because to her it isn't common sense because she doesn't have that picture in her mind.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now, again, there are some women, a very small percentage of women, who do have that in their mind.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_00: But the majority of women do not.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so you need to put the whole picture together and say something other than watch your front sight.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_00: But the guys get it because they understand the concept of spatial relationships, how objects are related to each other in space.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_00: There are big gaps in space.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_00: There are big gaps between the target and the front sight.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_00: There's a gap between the front sight and the rear sight.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_00: There's a gap between the rear sight and the eye.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_00: And the eye and the target.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_00: All those things have to be related while you're pressing the trigger.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_00: And until that is explained and sent demonstrated to her, she's not going to get it.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_00: And and I have a very simple picture I draw of a stick figure.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I make sure there's something that indicates it's a female.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_00: And she has a target, she has a gun in her hand, and there's a line between her eye and the spot on the target that she needs to hit.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that line goes through the rear sight and the front sight, and it ends up on the target.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_00: And the and the gun is up there lined up with her eye.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's all in a straight line.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it's as simple as it can possibly be.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_00: I taught the Marine Corps.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_00: I went to Paris Island.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_00: I was brought into Paris Island two years in a row to teach Marine rifle instructors how to teach women how to shoot rifles.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_00: And we went through all of this until the guys understood.
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the rifles were too, at that time the rifles were too big, the stock was too long.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_00: Many of the women couldn't even see the sights because the stock was too long.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I elongated this the stocks and made the stocks too long for the guys.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then they complained to me, I can't see the sights.
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh well, you know, how do you like it?
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_00: You can't see the sights?
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_00: How are you going to hit the target?
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't understand what was happening to her.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I drew the picture for them.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I taught a two-day class and then I taught another two-day class.
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_00: In the middle of the second day class, two-day class, we're walking out to the range, and this young Marine comes running up to me across the beautiful grass at Paris Highland.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_00: Mrs.
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_00: Farda, Mrs.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_00: Farda, ma'am, Mrs.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_00: Farda, ma'am, it works, it works, it works.
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I stopped and turned around and he pulled out this little tiny scrap of paper about this big.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_00: And on that piece of paper was that stick figure.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_00: He said, She was missing and missing and missing and missing.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_00: This is a a a rifle coach at Paris Island.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_00: He said she was missing.
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I drew that picture for her, just like you drew it for us.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, She looked up at me and she said, Well, why didn't you say so?
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_00: And he said she never missed again.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because now she had it all in context.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_00: And she was in the context.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_00: It now became personal.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_00: She was in charge of the gun.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_00: She was in charge of the bullet.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_00: She was in charge of the sights.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_00: She was in charge of the trigger.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_00: And once she understood that, she never missed again.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why we've had so many failures because our brains don't work the same.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_00: Men and women are different.
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_00: Our brains are not set up the same way.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_00: And until we are shown the spatial relationship, how those things are connected to each other, we won't be as successful.
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_00: But we can be just as good as you guys.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_00: You I I'll take on any of you.
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_03: I know you would.
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_03: The funny thing about this is I can hear the truth of what you're saying just from the last interaction I had with my wife.
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_03: We were moving furniture and I asked her to move a thing, right?
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_03: Because she was helping me move it.
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's heavy.
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'm like, just do a thing.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I can't remember what that thing was now.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_03: But she looked at me and went, What do you mean?
• 1:10:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I for the life of me figure out why she wasn't getting what I needed her to do because it seemed plainly obvious.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_03: But having been married for a number of years now, successfully, and she hasn't killed me in my sleep, I knew more words were needed.
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, okay, what do I what do I need to explain?
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_03: So I tried to put myself in her shoes and sort of talk it through.
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_03: And with 20 extra words, words that I wouldn't have used with a guy, but with 20 extra words for my wife, she goes, I get it.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_03: I know exactly what I need to do.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_03: And she did.
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_03: So there is truth in this.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's just funny to think about its applicability, even off the range, with just being successfully married.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_00: In in everything, in everything.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um because we yes, we want words to tell us.
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_00: So when you came home from Nashville last week and you walked in the door, and and she said to you, Hi honey, how was your trip to Nashville?
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And what did you say?
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_03: I said a lot of things because I know she wants to hear how that trip went.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_00: But typically a guy will say, Oh, it's great.
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Fine.
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_03: And pretty We I learned long ago that is not enough.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so you go and the typical guy will go and sit down in his chair with his beer and his TV remote control.
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then pretty soon she comes, stands beside it with her hands on her hips.
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't you ever talk to me?
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_00: And and yet the next day you go to go to work and you see one of your friends, and he says, How was your trip to Nashville?
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you say, it was great.
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_00: And he turns around and walks away because he heard everything he needed to know in those two words.
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_00: She needs to know what was the weather like, what did you eat?
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Who was there?
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_00: What did you see?
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_00: What did you talk about?
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_00: How was the hotel?
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because only with all of the information will she understand exactly how good your trip was.
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_00: We like detail.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_00: You subsist on detail.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, minimal words.
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so until we understand that as instructors, we cannot be efficient instructors.
• 1:12:42
  SPEAKER_00: And yet I have to understand the same thing when I'm teaching the Marines.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_00: I have to understand that my words have to be be sparse, but be to the point and create exactly the impression in their mind that they need.
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I babble on and on and on and on, they're going to look at me and say, was she is she never going to shut up?
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so I have to balance my teaching to them.
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_00: And yet I have to be able to give them as much information as possible so that when they teach women, they are not using the same technique they would use when they teach men.
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_01: We both have stormy marriages.
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_03: I don't anymore because I learned to communicate.
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_03: We're all a work in progress.
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_03: If my wife is sitting here now, she'd be like, mm-hmm.
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 1:13:41
  SPEAKER_00: But but does that give you a little bit of an idea of why?
• 1:13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it absolutely does.
• 1:13:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because I've had a number of female instructors, incredible caliber shooters, who have said, if you're going to teach women, be prepared to explain and answer a lot of questions.
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not, they're not asking questions because they want to annoy you.
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_03: They're asking questions to get clarity and context and understanding.
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, they want the why.
• 1:14:09
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, yes, you've said I need to do this thing.
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_03: Let's say grip the pistol this way.
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_03: Why am I gripping the pistol this way?
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_03: Well, a guy, generally speaking, is much more likely to say, okay, depending on who's teaching, if they respect the instructor and the instructor says this is the way you do it, they're going to go, that's the way you do it.
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_03: They're not going to ask necessarily a bunch of questions.
• 1:14:27
  SPEAKER_03: Women are going to, well, okay, I understand that you've just said that's the way we should do it, but why?
• 1:14:32
  SPEAKER_03: Why are my thumbs aligned this way?
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_03: Why am I, you know, positioning?
• 1:14:37
  SPEAKER_00: We we are involved in the process as well as the end result.
• 1:14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Guys just want the end result.
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_00: They don't care how they get there.
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_00: They just want to get there.
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:14:50
  SPEAKER_03: So, John, do you think there's a male equivalent perhaps where an instructor or or someone you've taught with with guys over the years where the there's a particular technique that perhaps needs improvement, but they're unwilling to step away from that because this has worked in quotations for years.
• 1:15:08
  SPEAKER_03: Why am I doing this new thing?
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_01: If you think about it for a moment, 90% of what we're teaching today, 50 years ago, would have been blasphemy.
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we've come, you know, you and I have lived long enough to see to see this, but our young students and they're, you know, uh they're only in their 20s, they haven't seen the development.
• 1:15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, a lot of uh what we're teaching uh would have uh the people would have rolled their eyes and shriek in horror uh uh even 50 years ago at what we're teaching.
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Or the way we're teaching it.
• 1:15:44
  SPEAKER_00: So rip and stance rips and stance and and uh uh press, even yeah.
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I'll have a student, as you pointed out, will say, Well, uh I I do it this way.
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_01: I say, No, Skippy, that's the way you used to do it.
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Now you're doing it this way.
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Why would you pay me all this money to come down here and teach me how to shoot?
• 1:16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Good point.
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_01: And most people take it very well.
• 1:16:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, most people they're they know why they're there, they paid a lot of money to be there, uh, and uh they're there to learn.
• 1:16:20
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and that's great.
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_01: They make wonderful students.
• 1:16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but you're always gonna get some pushback.
• 1:16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 1:16:26
  SPEAKER_01: People always start from where they are.
• 1:16:29
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, well, I've always been told this.
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh, you know, I was told that 50 years ago, too.
• 1:16:36
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, we've come a long way since then.
• 1:16:38
  SPEAKER_01: So let me bring you up to date.
• 1:16:39
  SPEAKER_01: This is the way we uh approach this today.
• 1:16:42
  SPEAKER_01: And uh most of my students, our students, are very acceptable, or very accepting of that.
• 1:16:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we don't have you know too many hardheads.
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we you know, we charge a lot of money for our courses, and people had to sacrifice to be there, and uh and they're there learning for the most part.
• 1:17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:17:01
  SPEAKER_03: So after the amount of time that you've spent training people, do you think that after all the lessons are done, they spend the time in the range, you've trained and tried to instill in them the necessity to avoid, if possible, through observation and careful assessment of the environment and the people in it.
• 1:17:20
  SPEAKER_03: Have you ever come across individuals, perhaps, that sort of find themselves second guessing whether they should even carry a firearm?
• 1:17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 1:17:32
  SPEAKER_01: I tell my my students, or we tell our students at the beginning of every course, we have two goals in this in this program.
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh goal number one, we all die of old age.
• 1:17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh goal number two, we don't spend a large portion of our adult life in a penitentiary.
• 1:17:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what drives uh what we're teaching here.
• 1:17:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then they'll hear us say, listen, I'm not here to tell you what to do.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here to tell you what's going to happen when you do.
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Here's what you can expect, and this is the reason we're suggesting uh what we're suggesting here.
• 1:18:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I have students, we have students that uh for instance in this whole area of uh disengagement, um I see a person acting suspiciously, maybe dangerously.
• 1:18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'll tell my students uh uh, do you want to confront that person?
• 1:18:27
  SPEAKER_01: I sure don't.
• 1:18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's what you pay police to do.
• 1:18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I, you know, my suggestion is number one, get out of there and then go to your telephone or your cell phone and call the police.
• 1:18:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's what you pay them to do.
• 1:18:39
  SPEAKER_01: You pay the police to confront dangerous people.
• 1:18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone paying you to do that?
• 1:18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh is there any expectation that you would do that?
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no.
• 1:18:49
  SPEAKER_01: What's uh what would your you know what would your lawyer suggest if you were here?
• 1:18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Shut your mouth and get out of here.
• 1:18:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's what he would suggest.
• 1:18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Probably good advice.
• 1:19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, of course, after hearing all this, a student will say, Well, I understand, you know, that all makes sense, but listen, when I see something terrible happening, my conscience will not permit me to remain silent.
• 1:19:18
  SPEAKER_01: And my response, of course, is well, God bless you.
• 1:19:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm I'm not here to tell you what to do.
• 1:19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but here's what you can expect.
• 1:19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there's not much good news here.
• 1:19:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh one thing we have to uh acquaint our young police officers with are just getting the business.
• 1:19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they're all enthusiastic and they're they should be, and they're there for the right reasons.
• 1:19:44
  SPEAKER_01: I want to help people, I want to help our civilization.
• 1:19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, great.
• 1:19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Don't expect to be thanked.
• 1:19:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh do expect everyone to second guess you.
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Do expect everyone to point out where you could have done it better.
• 1:19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so if you're in this business because you want to feel those accolades, I want to hear people thank me, and uh, you're gonna have a very short and unhappy career.
• 1:20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it has to be for reasons other than that.
• 1:20:14
  SPEAKER_01: So the idea that I'm going to help someone else and uh inject myself into a circumstance in which I was otherwise not involved, and everybody's gonna congratulate me and pat me on the back, and uh uh that is a fantasy.
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I can pretty much guarantee you this will not have a happy ending.
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh people may get hurt, uh, and you're gonna have a part in it.
• 1:20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh everybody will point out where you could have done it better, and uh no one's gonna say thank you.
• 1:20:49
  SPEAKER_01: So if when you're good with that and you still want to step forward, uh that's between you and your own conscience.
• 1:20:57
  SPEAKER_01: You have to sit down in front of a mirror and discuss with yourself what you want to do here.
• 1:21:02
  SPEAKER_01: As your lawyer, what am I saying?
• 1:21:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna say what's in your best interest.
• 1:21:05
  SPEAKER_01: What's in your best interest, shut your mouth and get out of here.
• 1:21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Vicky.
• 1:21:09
  SPEAKER_00: But after hearing all this, are there people who decide that they can't do this?
• 1:21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, there are.
• 1:21:16
  SPEAKER_00: There are we've had people who say, I thought I could do this, but I can't do this.
• 1:21:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and so you just have to say to them, it's all right.
• 1:21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody's gonna hold it against you that you would not want to use force in order to stop the violence.
• 1:21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've also had um people who have come to our instructor level courses who say, you know what, I thought I could teach us, but I can't teach us.
• 1:21:47
  SPEAKER_00: I I can't I cannot go through this because I can't really teach it genuinely.
• 1:21:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, it's a small percentage, a very small percentage, but it but there are people out there, and bless their hearts that they can recognize that it's not for them.
• 1:22:04
  SPEAKER_01: They confront it, and uh I've had students tell me, you know what, I'm gonna sell my guns.
• 1:22:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to be a gun owner.
• 1:22:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh fine.
• 1:22:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm not here to pass judgment.
• 1:22:15
  SPEAKER_01: You uh it's your life, you run it any way you want.
• 1:22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but it's good that you discovered that while you're here and that you've settled it in your mind now.
• 1:22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Great, now you can get past that and go on with your life.
• 1:22:27
  SPEAKER_00: And and by the same token, it just a little deviation from that question, there are also people we have said you shouldn't be here.
• 1:22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because they cannot safe focus on safe gun handling.
• 1:22:43
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, we've had that.
• 1:22:44
  SPEAKER_00: And uh that's that's the hardest one is when you end up um saying to somebody, you know what, this is not for you.
• 1:22:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:22:57
  SPEAKER_00: We've had to but you have to say that.
• 1:22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we've had to excuse people, of course.
• 1:23:01
  SPEAKER_01: With look, you're just for some reason, which I'm not prepared to explain, for some reason, you're incapable of handling guns safely.
• 1:23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Or or handling guns carefully.
• 1:23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I don't know what it is.
• 1:23:15
  SPEAKER_01: What I do know is you can't be here anymore.
• 1:23:17
  SPEAKER_01: And uh we send them on their way.
• 1:23:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that's probably in our entire career, that's probably happened a half a dozen times.
• 1:23:24
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:23:24
  SPEAKER_00: And uh where you actually in the midst of a class, you have to take somebody's say, you know, bring your bag up here.
• 1:23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we're gonna take your gun apart and put it in the bag.
• 1:23:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what?
• 1:23:41
  SPEAKER_00: I can only think of one time where there was resistance to that, but in every other time, the person said, You're right.
• 1:23:51
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't realize it, but you're right.
• 1:23:53
  SPEAKER_00: And away they went.
• 1:23:55
  SPEAKER_01: Never saw them again.
• 1:23:57
  SPEAKER_00: So Yeah, all kinds of stuff like that where people think they know their path and then they find that that's not their path.
• 1:24:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not sure I'm prepared to explain what mental illness is uh or wh why it is that some people are just unable to cope with life in any kind of protective way.
• 1:24:24
  SPEAKER_01: I guess we all have moments like that, but uh uh I I lack the educational background to to speak with that authority.
• 1:24:32
  SPEAKER_01: What I do know is when I'm wearing a course and uh I recognize just uh an inability to handle guns correctly and uh carefully, then we have as instructors, we have to do something about it.
• 1:24:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and and we do.
• 1:24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Fortunately, it doesn't happen real often.
• 1:24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but the the way I I sometimes explain it, the gun you're carrying around is is a deadly weapon.
• 1:24:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's a product of centuries of uh uh of human unfortunate interaction.
• 1:25:04
  SPEAKER_01: In our generation, it is our privilege to use these wonderful killing machines uh that have been developed over over centuries, as I said.
• 1:25:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they're deadly weapons, they're designed to kill people.
• 1:25:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I don't think it's possible to handle a deadly weapon safely, because that word safe implies a guarantee.
• 1:25:28
  SPEAKER_01: And you'll hear instructors say this you do things the way I show you, and nothing bad will ever happen.
• 1:25:34
  SPEAKER_01: That is nonsense.
• 1:25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no matter how careful you try to be.
• 1:25:38
  SPEAKER_01: As I said to under cross-examination more than once, uh, counselor, guns are dangerous.
• 1:25:44
  SPEAKER_01: Your client needs to be more careful.
• 1:25:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so safe gun handling, I don't like that term.
• 1:25:51
  SPEAKER_01: That implies a guarantee.
• 1:25:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and while I'm not sure we can handle guns safely, I am convinced we can handle them carefully.
• 1:26:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you can have a procedure for handling guns that will reduce the risk to as much as it can be reduced.
• 1:26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but uh as I said earlier, you want guns in your life, risk attaches to that.
• 1:26:17
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want guns in your life, risk attaches to that too.
• 1:26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so while we can teach a procedure, I I don't like the idea, and I've seen some instructors say this, you do it my way, and nothing bad will ever happen.
• 1:26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think that's nonsense.
• 1:26:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and I don't think I think we're irresponsible in phrasing it that way because that gives students a false guarantee.
• 1:26:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry to get nerfed.
• 1:26:43
  SPEAKER_03: You're fine.
• 1:26:43
  SPEAKER_03: So I think having listened to you for this time period and actually read quite a bit about both of you, I think that one of the things we should all take away from this is that true readiness, it's not measured necessarily by just our willingness to use force, which can be in most cases trained, but also by the willingness to apply skills and effort to the avoidance of ever having to use those skills.
• 1:27:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:27:11
  SPEAKER_03: If at all possible.
• 1:27:13
  SPEAKER_01: That pretty much sums it up.
• 1:27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh I think as instructors, we had to be fair careful about false guarantees.
• 1:27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh guarantees in general.
• 1:27:23
  SPEAKER_01: The false guarantee is probably a redundancy.
• 1:27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we teach an attitude, we teach a philosophical overlay, and we teach a set of skills.
• 1:27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh and then we exercise all this actually, you know, on the range.
• 1:27:42
  SPEAKER_01: So you you get a chance to say the words, the the tape loops I talked about, you get a chance to actually operate the machines.
• 1:27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh I have had a number of my students uh involved in lethal force incidents afterward, and fortunately they all did uh pretty well.
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and none of them were perfect, but they all did pretty well.
• 1:28:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I get a for every time that's happened, I get at least 20 students who will come back to me and say, you know, because of what I learned in your class, I decided not to go there that night.
• 1:28:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they avoided it.
• 1:28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I get a far more satisfaction out of that than I get out of someone who actually, you know, had to kill somebody else, although that's sometimes necessary.
• 1:28:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh when the student said, Because of what I learned from you, I was careful I didn't shoot my mouth off that night.
• 1:28:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I was careful I didn't, I decided not to go there.
• 1:28:36
  SPEAKER_01: I decided, you know, I had a bunch of friends that wanted to go somewhere.
• 1:28:39
  SPEAKER_01: I decided not to go with them.
• 1:28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh because they keep doing stupid stuff.
• 1:28:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I I decided I'm gonna get different friends.
• 1:28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I consider that progress, and uh that I really get a lot of satisfaction out of.
• 1:28:52
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 1:28:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's been a privilege to sit with you guys and listen to all the things that that you shared and keep sharing.
• 1:29:00
  SPEAKER_03: So for anyone that is interested in either following, connecting, or maybe taking one of your classes, I assume there are still classes that they can take with you.
• 1:29:09
  SPEAKER_03: Where would you like them to go?
• 1:29:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:29:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh we have a web page, and that's probably the pla best place to go.
• 1:29:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's defense hyphen training.com.
• 1:29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Defense hyphen training.com.
• 1:29:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's our webpage.
• 1:29:24
  SPEAKER_01: All the stuff is there.
• 1:29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh all our courses are posted there, and uh uh I appreciate getting a chance to you know to mention it.
• 1:29:33
  SPEAKER_01: And uh uh start there and then uh our uh email is there.
• 1:29:39
  SPEAKER_01: You can contact either one of us.
• 1:29:41
  SPEAKER_01: We always answer our email personally, and uh we'll go from there.
• 1:29:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we have six books between the two of us.
• 1:29:47
  SPEAKER_00: We have six books, they're all available on Amazon.
• 1:29:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 1:29:53
  SPEAKER_01: And you'll see you'll see a link on the webpage.
• 1:29:56
  SPEAKER_01: And uh Vicky maintains uh another webpage called DTI for women uh where uh she addresses all the specific issues about which we've talked today.
• 1:30:07
  SPEAKER_00: So And some we haven't talked about.
• 1:30:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:30:12
  SPEAKER_00: But uh we didn't talk about off-body carry.
• 1:30:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:30:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:30:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's another specialty that's uh yeah.
• 1:30:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's a specialty of mine too, that I teach an instructor class on that.
• 1:30:24
  SPEAKER_00: And uh off-body carry is the wrong name for it entirely because it's not off-body, but uh carrying in something other than a waistband holster.
• 1:30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I I call it flexi carry because there's so many options.
• 1:30:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's a whole topic of itself.
• 1:30:42
  SPEAKER_00: But we have to we have to meet the needs of our student, and not everybody can wear a holster in a belt.
• 1:30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:30:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll I'll add to that that uh uh a a handbag carry uh or one of the other iterations of this for some people, many people, not only represents a legitimate option, it represents the only option.
• 1:31:06
  SPEAKER_01: For any number of reasons that the all other options are less satisfactory.
• 1:31:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so the prejudice uh against uh handbag carry is something that we try to address in our courses.
• 1:31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh that, you know, uh the it may not be something you'd ever consider, but there are people out there, not just women, but there are lots of people out there under circumstances that represents uh not only a legitimate option, but their only options, I said.
• 1:31:34
  SPEAKER_01: So uh something that we try to address.
• 1:31:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:31:38
  SPEAKER_03: Now I love that because not everybody can carry the way that you know instructors would insist that we do.
• 1:31:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I would much rather somebody have a gun carried in an unusual way and have it with them than they don't have it at all.
• 1:31:55
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 1:31:55
  SPEAKER_00: And there are a lot of different configurations you don't have to call it a purse.
• 1:32:01
  SPEAKER_00: There are just a lot of different configurations.
• 1:32:03
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're in a wheelchair, if you have a colostomy bag, if you um uh have had back surgery and you can't put weight down around your waist, but you could carry weight up higher on your sh uh upper chest, all of those things have to be taken into consideration because everybody deserves to be able to defend themselves.
• 1:32:25
  SPEAKER_00: And the narrow-minded instructors who say, no, no, nope, nope, never can't do it that way.
• 1:32:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's horrible because because um they're just not looking at the benefit to their own students.
• 1:32:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:32:40
  SPEAKER_00: So and and I tend to get passionate about that too.
• 1:32:44
  SPEAKER_03: So nothing wrong with that.
• 1:32:46
  SPEAKER_03: And instructors should meet their students where they are, and the and the context of their lives.
• 1:32:52
  SPEAKER_01: The goal of the instructor and the student is always the same.
• 1:32:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's the improvement of the student.
• 1:32:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:32:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's why we're here, and we we forget that at our peril.
• 1:33:02
  SPEAKER_01: Agreed.
• 1:33:03
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for joining me today.
• 1:33:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's been a privilege to spend some time with you guys so.
• 1:33:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Harry, we uh we appreciate you so much.
• 1:33:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:33:11
  SPEAKER_00: You've been delightful, and I hope we get to meet you in person sometime.
• 1:33:15
  SPEAKER_00: Will you get the shot Will you get the shot show?
• 1:33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 1:33:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I'll probably be there again this year.
• 1:33:20
  SPEAKER_03: I'm pretty sure.
• 1:33:21
  SPEAKER_01: Let's plan on having lunch.
• 1:33:23
  SPEAKER_01: Lunch is on us.
• 1:33:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh let's give me a call and let's get together over lunch at the shot show.
• 1:33:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:33:28
  SPEAKER_03: That would be wonderful.
• 1:33:29
  SPEAKER_03: Love to meet you.
• 1:33:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:33:30
  SPEAKER_01: All right, that'd be great.
• 1:33:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:33:32
  SPEAKER_01: You bet.
• 1:33:33
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:33:34
  SPEAKER_01: Take care.
• 1:33:34
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:33:35
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll see you soon.
• 1:33:36
  SPEAKER_03: All right, thanks guys for tuning into this episode.
• 1:33:38
  SPEAKER_03: Depending on what platform we're on.
• 1:33:39
  SPEAKER_03: Don't forget to like, share, and subscribe.
• 1:33:42
  SPEAKER_03: Your support helps us keep bringing you the guests that you want to hear from, and we do appreciate that support.
• 1:33:48
  SPEAKER_03: For now, that's the end of the episode, and we'll see you in the next one.
• 1:33:51
  SPEAKER_03: Cheers, everyone.