Latest / The Scene Projects / Keith Zubchevich on Conviva, Streaming Challenges, and the Future of AI in User Experience

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Keith Zubchevich on Conviva, Streaming Challenges, and the Future of AI in User Experience · The Scene Projects

• 0:23
  Welcome in to Real Biz.
• 0:24
  I'm your host Bubba Starts, and with me today from Conviva, Keith Zubchevich.
• 0:30
  Keith, welcome to the show.
• 0:31
  Thank you, man.
• 0:32
  Thanks for having me.
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  An absolute pleasure, especially since I rely so much on you and and Conviva behind the
• 0:41
  scenes to handle a lot of things.
• 0:44
  Although we've never dealt with one another directly, we're gonna get into why, your
• 0:49
  company is so important to everything that we consume, in the world today, especially when it
• 0:55
  comes obviously to video.
• 0:57
  Before we get into all of that, though, wanted to get a little bit of your personal backstory,
• 1:02
  leading into this, and now you're almost twenty years with ConeViva.
• 1:06
  I'm sure that's just a little surreal to you even.
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  Total it's amazing to me that I've been here nineteen years and talk about loyalty.
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  Like, we're I'm committed to to this place and and seeing it to what it can potentially be.
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  But, yeah, we started the company actually twenty years ago.
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  I call myself the fifth beetle because there was four founders coming out of academia, and
• 1:23
  then and then I joined.
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  So I I I refer to myself as the fifth beetle.
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  And we started the business and the company.
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  And by the way, my background to to a little bit about me.
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  I've been in technology for about thirty five years.
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  So I I came out of college got into technology way before technology is what it is today, and
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  fell in love with technology.
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  I I I absolutely fell in love with the innovation, the pace, how fast things were
• 1:46
  moving, the fact that it never got stale or static.
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  Businesses were always pushing the envelope.
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  Vendors were always pushing the envelope.
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  So that that was I knew I was in the right space for me at that time.
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  So I've been in technology about thirty five years, built several zero to liquidity event
• 2:00
  companies, and loved the fact that I I also learned, you know, I love building companies.
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  So, and then I joined Conviva.
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  And the premise when I joined Conviva with the four founders was any business you put on the
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  Internet should be measured.
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  You know, the it is now you have the ability to to to measure the experience on the other side.
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  You can measure what you're delivering, and you can make sure that you're not only delivering
• 2:21
  high quality experience, you're also getting back intelligence that's enabling you to
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  continue to optimize your business on online.
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  So that was the premise that we started the company with, and we chose video.
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  Now people would say, well, twenty years ago, nineteen years ago, was there video on the
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  Internet?
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  There wasn't.
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  So talk about visionary.
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  We started a company before there was even a thing to measure.
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  So we started measuring just small little bits of video that really tune our our our our
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  platform and really start to introduce the concept of quality of experience to the video
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  market, and was very fortuitous because, obviously, then the streaming came about.
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  We didn't start the company knowing that streaming was gonna be gonna happen.
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  We just knew that the video was Internet was not built for video.
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  So, therefore, somebody has to measure how the video is being experienced on the other end
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  that between where the source is and what the viewer is actually gonna get.
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  There's a ton of complexity, the Internet, number one, but there would be a ton of
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  complexity there.
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  So the key was if you're gonna deliver a video, don't just measure system performance and
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  network performance.
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  That's misleading.
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  It's actually false flag stuff.
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  We've learned over twenty years there there is very little correlation between system
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  performance and the viewer's experience.
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  There's a ton of things that total up to being what the video experience is on the end.
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  So that's what we did is we measured everything in the middle and gave that back to the
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  publishers to say now, as you wanna create a TV quality experience because you're moving TV
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  from cable from a from a from a a a cable analog signal to this new thing called the
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  Internet.
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  The head of HBO was one of our early customers, said if I'm gonna build a TV business online, I
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  have to build a TV quality experience because that's what my viewers expect.
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  I don't get to be HBO online.
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  I'm still HBO, the the broadcaster.
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  And people love my content, and they know it's high quality.
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  So I have to find a way to deliver on the Internet that same high quality experience, and
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  that's why they chose Canva.
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  And that's why when you say we're a company everybody benefits from, but nobody knows, it's
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  because we're the company that sits on the endpoint with you as a viewer and feeds back
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  your experience in real time to the publisher so that when you have a bad experience or a
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  buffering event or it starts to look like Minecraft, that publisher knows immediately
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  that you're having that issue and they can start to fix it.
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  They can understand, first of all, what's happening, where does the problem sit between
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  you and them, and immediately start making adjustments so they can clear that out and you
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  can have a better experience.
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  That's the reason why we also made it real time.
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  Nobody wants to find out tomorrow why I had a problem in my video because people are gonna
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  silently leave, and abandonment would happen.
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  So we that's how we built the business, and and now the the whole world of agents is coming,
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  and we see a resurgence of quality of experience is gonna become also now critical in
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  the in the agent space in a very similar way that video was.
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  Yeah.
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  In in many ways, it is the metric to measure by.
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  Because if you don't have a good quality experience, people are not going to come back,
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  and it really is everything.
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  And as far as things have moved that no one wants to wait for anything.
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  It it's bad enough that we have to wait through all the ads that we have to on the streaming
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  platforms.
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  The last thing we want to is something to load, then get served an ad, and then we're we're
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  busy people.
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  Right?
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  Probably some
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  of the economy.
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  We have a premise here.
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  Herb Simon wrote a paper a long time ago called the attention economy, which means you and I
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  have only so much attention in the day.
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  We can't make more.
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  So when you have someone's attention, you have to keep it.
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  It's valuable.
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  And that's why quality of experience is so important is I I I I need to log in.
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  I need to see it.
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  I need to I need to do what I need to do, and then I need to get you know, go on with my day.
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  If you make that bad, I'm never coming back.
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  Right?
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  I only have so much time.
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  I only have so much attention, and and we we say you need to keep it with a great quality of
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  experience.
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  Otherwise, you run the risk of losing consumers.
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  Yeah.
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  And a company like HBO may may be able to get that person back because of their programming,
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  but someone who's a much smaller creator that maybe has one shot at this doesn't have that,
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  and and that's why I'm really interested.
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  Obviously, you're working with some of the biggest brands in the world.
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  You guys were instrumental in making sure that the World Cup came off as well as it did.
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  You threw out some crazy numbers as far as what you guys were serving.
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  Can you repeat those for the podcast audience?
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  Yeah.
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  We did set over the World Cup weekend over the World Cup event.
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  We did we we achieved 70,000,000 concurrence, which means 70,000,000 people were watching
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  video, and we were doing quality of experience for 70,000,000 and feeding that back to
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  publishers in real time.
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  And we were the billions of sessions.
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  Like, it was a it was a massive event.
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  But then again, we've done all the Olympics.
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  We've done every Super Bowl.
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  You know, that that's nothing new for us.
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  It's just that that's really where you kick the tires of whether your vendor is really a
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  technology company or just the UI company.
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  When you're delivering something like the World Cup and you need to support that kind of scale,
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  all the other, what I call, ankle biter video quality of experience companies just die.
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  They can't handle that.
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  They have a good UI.
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  It looks kind of the same as Canva, but when push comes to shove and I need to know
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  70,000,000 people, Super Bowl, you know, again, same number, 70,000,000 people.
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  I need to know they're all getting the best TV experience.
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  I can't find out tomorrow.
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  I can't find out next week.
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  And worse, I can't be blind and just hope that my quality is good for my viewers because all
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  my system reports say I'm fine.
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  I need to know what viewers are experiencing.
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  So, that was a that that's those are always fun.
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  Those large events are always fun because, one, they're critical, and, two, they really show
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  why there's only one Convivo.
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  There there is no other Convivo in the marketplace today.
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  Yeah.
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  And to operate at that scale is just a massive undertaking, not just on the technological
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  side, but on the human power side.
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  Even though we have agents and you have this incredible technology that is able to identify
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  these, you still have to have people in between those that have the relationships with your
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  clients and and transferring the the information and making sure that your stuff
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  doesn't break during that process as well.
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  It's just an incredible undertaking that really is completely mind blowing to me, and I think
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  it's something that no one is thinking about when they're watching, someone score a
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  touchdown during the Super Bowl.
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  That's what I said.
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  We people take TV quality for granted because we saw it on TV for so long.
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  That is not in streaming, that is not the case.
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  Like, what we do and the things we show publishers when they deliver video are masked.
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  There are so many things.
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  People don't understand how complex it is to deliver a video online.
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  It's it's hard, and there's a lot of things that get in the way.
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  And the reason why we chose video is because the eyeball can see when you don't do it well.
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  Right?
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  When back in the email days, when something just delivered slowly, look, my email might be
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  slow and I get that spinning wheel on email.
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  I'm not mad.
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  Now you're watching a soccer match or the Super Bowl or your favorite TV show and you get that
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  wheel and I only get it for three seconds, I'm freaking out.
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  So we we started measuring video because we knew that the sensors were the human eye, and
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  and and the and the urgency and the necessity to have quality of experience be, you know, at
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  its best is video.
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  And so that's why we chose it, and and we built a business around it.
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  We've had a phenomenal run.
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  We still have all these massive customers.
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  We've launched 12 of the 15 largest streaming apps in the world today and still measure their
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  quality of experience, and we learn more all the time.
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  Right?
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  Now we're launching agents.
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  So, you know, you talk about the ability to launch agents.
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  Humans can't even look at that much data now.
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  Right?
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  You think about delivering a 70,000,000 concurrent event.
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  Human can't look at all that data, so we actually deploy agents and AI to scan the data
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  and look for anomalies.
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  And this is again where Conviva's platform comes into play is that the the technology
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  platform can diagnose down to very small cohorts, and we can understand very small
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  pockets of the Internet where performance issues are.
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  That's a really hard problem to to to solve.
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  And so we've solved that now, and we're we're running agents over the top of it and what we
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  call Nexa, which is the equivalent of having, you know, AI now helping you deliver the best
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  quality of experience possible.
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  Well, and really, there's nobody else out there in the world that's, in a position to create
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  that agent.
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  Right?
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  You you already have the technological base, but you have the human know how behind it to
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  go, no.
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  This is this is what we're looking for.
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  When stuff breaks, it breaks here.
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  So you can train that agent to, like, identify those pieces.
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  And someone coming from the outside that's like, oh, we're gonna revolutionize this
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  industry from the outside.
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  They don't have that experience to lean on.
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  Twenty years now of Conviva being around and working with these major brands and having all
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  of this data to lean on, it's just gonna be I I I won't say impossible because nothing is
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  impossible, it's gonna be a very steep climb to try to come from the outside and to solve a
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  problem when you don't even know the names of the problems.
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  Yes.
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  That's a that is a great point.
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  Quality of experience is a hard problem.
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  It's not just another thing.
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  And quality of experience analytics is not just another analytics.
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  That's why I said you you can go out and find a lot of companies that say QOE analytics.
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  But the difference is they're just delivering a good quality of experience UI.
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  When we talk about quality of experience at scale, that's a big data platform.
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  That's why I say the differentiation for us and every other company out in the marketplace
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  today is not that we started in QOE first and we invented the market.
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  We did.
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  We pioneered it.
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  We created it.
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  We defined it.
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  Since that day, there's been companies.
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  I know there's one in Spain that copied us.
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  There's smaller v o you know, video analytics companies that have come out and tried to copy
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  the UI and use a lot of those same words.
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  But the reality is once you start moving to quality of experience at scale, which is where
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  it matters I mean, if you're doing a broadcast to 10 people, not that important.
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  You can use those companies.
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  But when you start pushing a 5,000,000, 10,000,000, 70,000,000, you need a technology
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  platform to do that.
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  And now when you introduce an agent, it's the same thing.
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  And it this I'll I'll say this, and this is gonna be somewhat controversial, but but it's
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  very, very true.
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  AI is gonna expose most tool companies as technology frauds.
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  And and I mean that.
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  Like, there there there are so many companies out there selling analytics solutions that have
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  really sleek UIs and have some fundamental sort of small compute capability, and they match
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  those two things really well.
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  And they sell affordable product, product analytics companies, frauds.
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  Right?
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  The the OQE companies out there, frauds, because they didn't build a technology
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  platform.
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  They didn't build a technology platform at scale.
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  And now they're deploying an agent, and and we have a philosophy, and everyone needs to know
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  this.
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  Better platform, better data, better agent.
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  You cannot put an agent on bad data.
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  You cannot put an agent over the top of a bunch of raw data and expect it to be high performing
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  and accurate.
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  Cannot be done.
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  So the fact that we started with a technology platform and we built a highly compute and
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  highly scalable platform, then we have this massive at scale dataset that we've already
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  structured, computed, like you mentioned, all the terms around quality of experience, all the
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  methodologies, all the metrics.
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  We've we've figured all that out at the hardware layer.
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  And now you just snap an agent over the top, and it can scan a a a limitless scale,
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  limitless dimension, quality of experience data platform.
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  Now your agent, our Nexa agent, it blows the doors off of everybody else.
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  But now everyone else, you know, the quantum there's product analytics companies that will
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  launch an agent over the top of their data.
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  It's still a limited agent.
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  It's not that their agent is bad.
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  It's not that their AI is bad.
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  It's that their data platform is limited, and their data structure is horrible.
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  So the agent is like, man, I'm I'm I'm in first grade on this data.
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  I'm looking at first grade data.
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  You flip over to Conviva's platform, and it's PhD data.
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  Now all a sudden, that agent is high powered.
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  So people need to understand there's gonna be a lot of companies trying to hide their
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  technology gaps with AI and agents and say, oh, look at me.
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  I have an agent.
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  If you were a bad platform before, if you didn't have scale before, if you didn't have
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  high dimensionality before, an agent isn't gonna do anything.
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  It's not gonna be it's not gonna be as high powered.
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  So better day a better platform, better data, better agent, and that's where we're feeling,
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  you know, the benefit of that now with our next launch with our video products.
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  Now the the World Cup was actually run with Nexa.
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  They're copiloting with all of these publishers side by side.
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  Yeah.
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  And I will say as someone who was an end user to that, both on, you know, a a satellite
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  platform and at home streaming where I didn't get the games and I'm streaming them in in
• 13:58
  Spanish language broadcast because I'm not paying for one platform or the other, that the
• 14:03
  it there was it was seamless.
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  Right?
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  It was seamless watching on whether I was watching it on my phone, I was watching it on
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  my Roku device, or or I'm watching it on satellite television, there's no difference
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  whatsoever.
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  And that's a major testament to exactly what you've been, you know, touching on with, the
• 14:20
  technology.
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  Now I I I need you to kinda break this down for me, because I think we know, obviously, that
• 14:26
  streaming is different than a a satellite or especially a cable hardline thing.
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  Can you break it down in layman's terms, for me and other, you know, users like me that don't
• 14:37
  think about much of other than what's right in front of our eyes, the the major differences
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  and the challenges that, these publishers are dealing with that you're helping them identify
• 14:47
  those problems in.
• 14:49
  Yeah.
• 14:49
  So there there there's a bunch.
• 14:50
  That's why I said if you think about television today, and we'll just start with how it's run.
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  First of all, it's run with a single signal.
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  So at the origin point, it's a single signal that goes out over a network that is dedicated
• 15:01
  to that video signal.
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  That's why when TV, we all we all see the same thing at the same time.
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  Your neighbor and you watching the same program, your televisions are totally in sync.
• 15:09
  It's because it's a single signal on a single network called, you know, the cable network.
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  So you're not sharing traffic.
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  It's not bouncing back and forth.
• 15:17
  It's just everybody gets it.
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  Everybody sees it at the exact same time to a television that is actually not a piece of
• 15:23
  software.
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  It's actually an electric electronic device.
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  So the ability to decode that signal in the television and then display it on the monitor,
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  very simple.
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  I I oversimplified.
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  Very simple.
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  They perfected it over many, many years, but the point is it's very stable.
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  It's very predictable, and it's consistent.
• 15:41
  Now you drop over to the tell to streaming.
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  Immediately, your television is now a piece of software.
• 15:46
  That's the first change, and everybody knows how unreliable software is.
• 15:50
  Right?
• 15:50
  Now your television, your app is your television is a piece of software.
• 15:54
  Lots of complexity.
• 15:55
  It's making a lot of calls.
• 15:57
  It's making decisions for you, things like what CDN to select, what bit rate do I choose, when
• 16:03
  do I play that ad.
• 16:04
  Like, there's a million things that that video player is doing for you, but it's software,
• 16:09
  very unreliable.
• 16:10
  Then it comes over this thing called the Internet.
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  That's where things get really interesting.
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  It is no longer television only video only network.
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  It's actually now your video signal is being shared with your email.
• 16:22
  It's being shared with social media.
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  It's being shared with your security cameras.
• 16:27
  Everything is on the same network now.
• 16:28
  So now there's all kinds of collisions on the network.
• 16:31
  There's all kinds of congestion that you never had before.
• 16:34
  Then the final piece
• 16:35
  is I'm gonna break that down real quick, Keith.
• 16:36
  So if anyone can imagine, it's the difference between that video signals like a a six lane
• 16:42
  freeway, and you're the only person on it, and you can do a 120 miles an hour to now the
• 16:48
  Internet and that signal and the challenges there are it is rush hour, and there's traffic
• 16:53
  going both ways on the same side of the interstate.
• 16:56
  Yes.
• 16:56
  Absolutely.
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  And every signal this is another thing.
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  In television, everybody got the same signal.
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  There was one signal that went out went out to a head end network and got pushed to a
• 17:05
  television.
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  Everybody had the same signal.
• 17:07
  In streaming, everybody's signal is unique.
• 17:10
  Imagine that.
• 17:11
  I went from having to publish a single signal to if I have 50,000,000 people watching of an
• 17:16
  event, there's 50,000,000 streams, individual streams going through that network that has all
• 17:22
  those collisions and all those random paths.
• 17:25
  Right?
• 17:26
  There is no dedicated path from me to NBC in New York.
• 17:29
  I'm gonna transgress 50 different networks, 50 different CDNs, 50 different, you know, core
• 17:34
  networks, 50 different routers, even 50 different ways to get to New York.
• 17:38
  So all of the variability of just path and software reliability is off the charts.
• 17:43
  So we measure both of those all the way back to the to the encoder, all the way back to the bit
• 17:48
  rate selected, all the way back to the CMS server to grab the, you know, the you want to
• 17:52
  select, and if people have ever seen a four zero four error in their streaming app, that
• 17:55
  means the content wasn't there.
• 17:57
  That's all the way back to the origin server.
• 17:58
  It had nothing to do with network performance.
• 18:00
  So everything from a software is not working on the app to the network congestion, the CDN, or
• 18:05
  maybe it's a last mile problem, all the way back to the workflow within the publisher
• 18:09
  themselves.
• 18:10
  All of those things have to come together every time somebody clicks play.
• 18:15
  Not once to many.
• 18:16
  It's one to one.
• 18:17
  And so that level of complexity to be able to see that and be able to distill and break down
• 18:22
  across all those complexities, across that many streams to be able to say these 10,000 people
• 18:26
  had one thing in common.
• 18:27
  So if you fix it, you fixed it for 10,000 is a really hard problem.
• 18:32
  Yeah.
• 18:32
  Well and that's a total game changer for a publisher as well who, one, wouldn't know that
• 18:37
  the problem even existed if not for Conviva, and, two, to be able to pinpoint that problem
• 18:42
  and say, okay.
• 18:43
  Here is here is the problem.
• 18:45
  It is affecting this many individuals.
• 18:48
  Sometimes you can, you know, put that into triage then.
• 18:50
  Maybe you have five problems going on at the same time, and you can't fix all five in a
• 18:56
  moment.
• 18:56
  You have to be able to solve the one that is, you know, fixing the most problems per, you
• 19:02
  know, stream at at a time.
• 19:03
  So really incredible.
• 19:04
  I just I I we are kind of glossing over a little bit of the technology because I think we
• 19:09
  take it for granted.
• 19:10
  You know?
• 19:11
  And I definitely do that that we can, you know, watch anything in the world on these little
• 19:15
  things now in the palm of our hand, and we very seldom, I would say, take into account what is
• 19:21
  actually going on.
• 19:23
  Right?
• 19:23
  And then you're, you know, conflagrating cellular networks on top of that and not just
• 19:29
  hardwired Internet.
• 19:30
  And there's just so much happening that it's really incredible, that there is a a company
• 19:36
  like yours that's able to track all of that data.
• 19:38
  It's absolutely mind boggling to me, mostly because I'm a blue collar kinda simpleton in
• 19:44
  many ways.
• 19:44
  I didn't get heavy into tech, but I use it every single day.
• 19:48
  And I think all of us are using it and taking so much of what it is that we have access to in
• 19:54
  the palm of our hands for granted just on the technology to get it there much less the
• 19:59
  content that you're consuming.
• 20:01
  Yeah.
• 20:01
  The the the number of endpoints, the number of people multiplied by the number of things that
• 20:08
  are between all of those people and the publisher themselves is like a giant Rubik's
• 20:13
  cube, massive Rubik's cube.
• 20:15
  And that's why we have to see everything, and that's why we have to have the full topology
• 20:19
  visibility and the ability to have the dimensions to understand where's the problem.
• 20:23
  Because there could be 50 problems, not even five.
• 20:26
  There could be 50 to a 100 problems on an event, that's why we rank by size.
• 20:30
  We say, hey.
• 20:31
  10,000 people have this problem.
• 20:32
  A 100,000 had this problem.
• 20:34
  I can't just respond to a problem.
• 20:36
  I need to respond to problems that are sized so I know where to start.
• 20:40
  Because if if if and everybody's had a quality of experience problem, but you may have been
• 20:43
  the only one.
• 20:44
  But But I need to know as a publisher, well, was it just Bubba or was it the entire city of
• 20:49
  San Francisco, for example?
• 20:50
  Those are two different problems.
• 20:52
  And so it's not just seeing the problem.
• 20:53
  It's also being able to size it all in real time and give the publisher the ability to say,
• 20:57
  fix this one and you fix the biggest problem and then work your way down and slowly get to
• 21:01
  trying to to all of them.
• 21:02
  You can never get to all of them because the variability is just too much.
• 21:05
  There's always gonna be, you know, long tail stuff that you never get to.
• 21:08
  Right.
• 21:08
  Yeah.
• 21:09
  That's no offense to Bubba in South Dakota, but the 800,000 people trying to watch something in
• 21:14
  Oakland right now as the 49ers are on TV is much more important.
• 21:20
  And I don't take any offense to that either.
• 21:22
  So appreciate it.
• 21:24
  Thank you.
• 21:25
  I I just we I felt like we needed a little bit of a basis there so people can understand
• 21:29
  actually the the scope of what the problem is that Conviva is not necessarily solving, but
• 21:36
  you're pointing people in the right direction, your clients, saying, hey.
• 21:39
  This is specifically your problem.
• 21:41
  These are the people that it's happening to.
• 21:44
  Go fix it.
• 21:44
  And and I think that that in the user experience, it's something that none of us are
• 21:49
  ever going to think of.
• 21:51
  But on the client and publisher experience and for themselves, it means everything because
• 21:57
  there's going to be somewhere else that people will go and consume those things from.
• 22:01
  We we no longer, you know, necessarily live in an age of exclusivity.
• 22:05
  Right?
• 22:06
  It's a little more than three TV networks now that are available for people to consume, and
• 22:11
  and people are more than willing to just go watch something else at this point.
• 22:16
  Yeah.
• 22:16
  That that's a great point because, you know, we talked about HBO and the fact that they have a
• 22:19
  brand and they have great content, so some people will suffer through bad quality of
• 22:23
  experience.
• 22:23
  That's not necessarily true with the amount of content out there right now.
• 22:26
  As I mentioned with the attention economy, the last thing a business needs to do is let their
• 22:31
  consumer go somewhere else even for fifteen seconds.
• 22:34
  And I'm talking ecommerce, a retailer, or a video publisher.
• 22:37
  The last thing you want is the risk that you forced someone to go look somewhere else.
• 22:42
  And maybe I go into a YouTube channel or maybe I go into a a and e.
• 22:46
  Maybe I go to AMC, channels I would have never watched before.
• 22:49
  But since you're in buffering, I'm gonna go check something else out, and I find some
• 22:52
  content that I love.
• 22:53
  Because HBO is a brand that makes great content, but they don't make all the content.
• 22:57
  And so when you force up a a consumer or a viewer to disaggregate from yourself,
• 23:03
  disconnect from your business, you run the risk of them going somewhere else and never coming
• 23:08
  back even with your brand.
• 23:10
  Because a lot of people make great content now.
• 23:12
  A lot of people that aren't even broadcasters make great content now.
• 23:16
  And so even or or how about this?
• 23:18
  How about they don't even watch content?
• 23:19
  Maybe they go play a game.
• 23:21
  Maybe they go for a walk.
• 23:23
  Now you've lost them.
• 23:24
  And and and worse, they go away with a bad taste in their mouth that you don't have good
• 23:29
  quality.
• 23:30
  Now your brand is actually start slowly eroded.
• 23:33
  And that's the thing I want people to understand.
• 23:35
  Everything you watch on the Internet and every agent you talk to from now on can be optimized
• 23:42
  for you if that business is actually seeing your experience.
• 23:45
  It's possible.
• 23:46
  It's possible.
• 23:47
  So we're like Dolby.
• 23:48
  You know, people buy DVDs and CDs back in the day.
• 23:51
  I'm dating myself.
• 23:52
  But you would look that Dolby symbol meant something.
• 23:54
  It meant that there's a high quality sound that you're gonna buy in this DVD and see.
• 23:58
  I don't know how Dolby works.
• 23:59
  I don't even know what they do.
• 24:00
  But I knew that they had built a brand that they were gonna make sure that my quality was
• 24:04
  good.
• 24:05
  Canviva is the same thing.
• 24:06
  I want people to know you don't have to have a buffering event.
• 24:10
  You don't have to watch Minecraft football games.
• 24:12
  You don't have to have an agent conversation that you're that you just disconnect and go,
• 24:16
  that sucked.
• 24:17
  You don't have to do that.
• 24:18
  That the business can absolutely see your quality of experience and tune whatever you are
• 24:23
  experiencing so that now your experience is optimized.
• 24:27
  But maybe they don't, and so they people need to go, hey.
• 24:29
  Call Conviva.
• 24:30
  And
• 24:33
  exactly.
• 24:33
  I I think, you know, a big reason why we connected today is to broadcast this a a little
• 24:39
  bit because the market is changing.
• 24:41
  No longer, you know, are you just for the top publishers on the planet, everyone, myself
• 24:49
  included, you know, maybe 10,000 followers across everywhere that we touch.
• 24:54
  But it it the user experience is just as important to me as it is to Fox Sports.
• 25:00
  Right?
• 25:00
  It matters because I want people to consume that.
• 25:03
  And and you talk about the experience or the lack thereof, The downstream effect of that is
• 25:08
  the loss of advertisers, the loss of revenue from that for these major publishers who have a
• 25:14
  lot higher payroll than I have, to be able to do that.
• 25:17
  So losing, even a a small fraction of that user base because of the experience, that can be
• 25:24
  solved.
• 25:25
  The problem is there.
• 25:26
  You have a company that's showing you right where it's at and giving you all of the data in
• 25:30
  there.
• 25:31
  There's really no excuse not to solve those problems and to work with ConeViva to get the
• 25:37
  data to back that up.
• 25:39
  Yeah.
• 25:39
  The the impact is massive.
• 25:40
  And even on large people, people that are making, you know, a billion dollars in revenue,
• 25:43
  what if you have a 10% hit on that revenue?
• 25:45
  That's a $100,000,000.
• 25:46
  Like, it's not trivial.
• 25:47
  So 10% is 10% no matter how big your business is, and the law of numbers still applies.
• 25:52
  And and quality of experience of a bad 10% has a material impact to everything and everybody's
• 25:58
  business.
• 25:58
  And like I said, it doesn't have to be that way.
• 26:00
  You can deploy Canva or you you can look at the quality of experience, and you can maintain
• 26:04
  your contact in what I call the customer intimacy.
• 26:06
  You never cut it.
• 26:08
  You never make them leave.
• 26:09
  And here's another thing that I wanna call out.
• 26:12
  It's not just about your quality of experience.
• 26:14
  It's actually about what I know to be the standard for quality of experience. So
• 26:18
  So you're not even judged against yourself anymore because I use the HD SD example.
• 26:23
  And I know you probably remember SD.
• 26:25
  Right?
• 26:25
  When, you know, SD TV was how we watch television.
• 26:28
  I didn't know any better.
• 26:29
  Every program looked great to me.
• 26:31
  And then I remember the first time I saw HD, and I was like, holy crap.
• 26:35
  Now what happened?
• 26:36
  I saw what was possible, and I could never watch SD again.
• 26:39
  And I remember back in the day, my DIRECTV, there were some channels in SD, some in HD.
• 26:43
  I'd never watched an SD channel again because it just looked so bad.
• 26:48
  Now what happened in that moment?
• 26:50
  I saw what was possible.
• 26:51
  So anybody who thinks, well, you know, my content's good enough, you're not judged
• 26:55
  against your stuff.
• 26:56
  You're judged against I just watched a video on another company, and I could see every little
• 27:00
  detail, and the quality was crisp, and it was uninterrupted.
• 27:03
  Now I come to you, and I see that that's not the case.
• 27:06
  I'm not judging, like, what I think you should do.
• 27:09
  I'm saying that why are you not at this level?
• 27:11
  Everybody should be at this level.
• 27:13
  So quality of experience is a never ending evolution, and it's driven by human nature.
• 27:17
  It's driven by human behavior.
• 27:19
  Once I see what's possible, I now hold everybody to that standard.
• 27:23
  So the reason why we say you have to maximize and optimize quality of experience is because
• 27:27
  your competitors will.
• 27:29
  Right?
• 27:29
  People are gonna go and now all of a sudden, the bar is raising.
• 27:32
  And if you're not raising the bar with that same tide, you're getting left behind.
• 27:35
  And it will only be a matter of time before nobody wants to watch your stuff because I know
• 27:39
  it's not that good.
• 27:41
  So it's a race that never stops, and everybody needs to be seeing where it is today because it
• 27:45
  will always evolve.
• 27:46
  It will always get better, and people's standards are always gonna keep going up.
• 27:49
  We all we're we're we're a people that I wanna be better.
• 27:52
  I want more.
• 27:52
  I want more.
• 27:53
  I want more.
• 27:54
  That is inclusive of quality of experience.
• 27:55
  I want a better quality of experience all the time.
• 27:58
  Yeah.
• 27:59
  And fair or not, you you said it.
• 28:01
  It's human nature.
• 28:02
  It's almost unconscious.
• 28:03
  Right?
• 28:04
  That that once you see that, once you take a bite of that apple, there's no putting it back.
• 28:09
  There's no, biting into an inferior apple.
• 28:12
  It just doesn't, really compute for us.
• 28:14
  And and we haven't really even touched on.
• 28:16
  We've been talking a lot about video.
• 28:18
  Obviously, that's the realm that we live in now, but XR is right around the corner.
• 28:22
  And for those that don't know what XR is, it is your AR.
• 28:25
  It is your VR.
• 28:26
  It is that is just the way that we are going to be consuming content in the not so distant
• 28:31
  future, and I'm very lucky to have conversations around that.
• 28:35
  So, I I'd love to get your take on it.
• 28:37
  You know, the the the XR revolution that I think we're more in inside of than people
• 28:43
  realize, the augmented reality, the glasses, the cost of the hardware is coming down
• 28:49
  significantly, which is I think the first step in, you know, a wider adoption of that.
• 28:54
  But we've had, you know, virtual reality for quite some time.
• 28:58
  Augmented reality, a a little bit newer to that space.
• 29:01
  But, Keith, is it a lot of the same concepts that you guys are bringing from video and
• 29:05
  assisting some of these companies as well, or are you kind of hands off on it right now?
• 29:10
  We're we have been totally focused on video for now.
• 29:13
  I think we're we're having some projects running with some of our publishers around AR
• 29:17
  and VR today.
• 29:18
  So it's an it's an early access early early strategy for them, but it's it's actually
• 29:23
  higher requirement for quality of experience.
• 29:25
  Right?
• 29:25
  If I'm on my television let's say I'm on a smaller TV.
• 29:28
  Right?
• 29:28
  The quality of experience isn't that isn't that, you know, that critical.
• 29:31
  I my eye is still seeing blips.
• 29:34
  It's still seeing things.
• 29:35
  You get to bigger screens.
• 29:36
  Man, now all of a sudden, I see a lot more.
• 29:38
  You wrap it and you become VR.
• 29:41
  Now now quality of experience is everything because now I'm in it.
• 29:44
  And and if it's truly a virtual reality, it better look like reality.
• 29:50
  Right?
• 29:50
  So if if you're watching VR and it's buffering or it's pixelated or it's stuttering or it's
• 29:58
  blurry, that's not reality.
• 29:59
  Like, that's terrible.
• 30:01
  So the quality of experience in the whole XR revolution is actually heightened because it's
• 30:06
  so immersive.
• 30:07
  Right?
• 30:07
  That's why I use the difference between a small screen and a big screen, your iPhone versus a
• 30:11
  65 inch television.
• 30:13
  Sure.
• 30:13
  The size is the big difference, but it's also the immersive experience.
• 30:17
  Your phone is so small.
• 30:19
  You're not really immersed in it.
• 30:20
  It's really convenient.
• 30:21
  But when you have a lean back experience and I'm watching something on a 65, I wanna be
• 30:26
  immersed in that content.
• 30:27
  I can't be thrown out with a bad experience.
• 30:29
  That gets compounded with AR and VR.
• 30:32
  Because if you give me a bad experience in VR, that's not real.
• 30:35
  That's not reality.
• 30:36
  That that's crap.
• 30:37
  And I'm gonna take it off and and go do something else.
• 30:39
  So it's the same principles.
• 30:41
  It's the same value proposition.
• 30:42
  It's actually even more heightened when it you start talking about quality of experience
• 30:47
  because that's pure immersive.
• 30:49
  It's not partially immersive.
• 30:51
  Yeah.
• 30:52
  Really incredible.
• 30:53
  I I don't, and I've done my best to try to, let people know.
• 30:58
  I've been very privy to to some conversations both on the podcast and and off the record both
• 31:04
  to see, like, oh, the whole world the way that we consume content is changing, and it looks
• 31:10
  slow right now.
• 31:11
  But when it hits, it's going to look like we've been on, you know, the the elevator in, in
• 31:17
  Willy Wonka, right, where they shoot straight through the roof and you're into the sky, and
• 31:22
  you'll never be able to look at the world in the same way again.
• 31:26
  And I think it's a lot closer than most people are willing to accept for one and that just
• 31:33
  don't believe that the technology is there, but I believe that, you know, Conviva is obviously
• 31:37
  going to be a big part of that as it goes.
• 31:39
  There's not much you can do until there's a lot of data to extrapolate from.
• 31:43
  Right?
• 31:44
  You you are the measure of that.
• 31:46
  So I see it being a a big part for you maybe in the next three to five years right now as as
• 31:52
  everything kind of in its infancy, I would say, still with, you know, just a few players in the
• 31:57
  game.
• 31:58
  Keith, incredible conversation, man.
• 32:01
  Anything that you wanna touch on before I let you go?
• 32:03
  We mentioned a lot of the, you know, the the agents that you're deploying.
• 32:07
  I don't know if you wanna go a little more in-depth with that or if you feel like you've
• 32:12
  kinda covered everything that you came here to do.
• 32:14
  No, man.
• 32:15
  I we can go we can go forever on these topics.
• 32:17
  So I'll I'll I'm gonna talk until you actually, you know, give me the the the the hook.
• 32:22
  But the main thing is for for us is, you know, the the whole concept of of video people
• 32:27
  watching video online, it's about quality of experience.
• 32:29
  And, obviously, I want people to know that, you know, the the quality of experience doesn't
• 32:33
  have to be bad, and and we're there to try and solve that problem.
• 32:35
  But I also wanna say the same thing on agents is you mentioned everything is changing so
• 32:40
  fast.
• 32:40
  We're on Willy Wonka's elevator.
• 32:41
  I totally agree with AI is changing everything.
• 32:44
  And there there's a thing called Moore's Law.
• 32:45
  I think it was everything will get faster in two x performance at half the time.
• 32:50
  That was the Moore's Law sort of slope.
• 32:52
  Now I think it's getting 10 x faster at 10 x at one tenth the cost.
• 32:55
  That's what AI is doing.
• 32:57
  It's automating things and making things so much more efficient.
• 33:00
  So now most of us are gonna we we already know we watch streaming and and streaming video
• 33:05
  apps.
• 33:06
  The next big thing is gonna be agents, and and people are gonna start conversating with
• 33:10
  agents, whether it's in text or even voice, and we're gonna expect the same thing.
• 33:14
  And so so the concept that we're really getting out there with is that as people start
• 33:18
  launching agents, you really need to understand the quality of experience of that agent because
• 33:22
  to know it worked, just like back in the video days, oh, my video player worked.
• 33:26
  Doesn't mean that once the video started, it was a great experience.
• 33:29
  QoS is 1% of the problem.
• 33:31
  QoE is 99%, which means once it starts, who's watching how it's being experienced?
• 33:37
  Right?
• 33:37
  That's a that's a big, big, big problem.
• 33:40
  And it's gonna be the same with agents, That people are gonna launch agents, and anyone
• 33:43
  launching an agent or anyone talking to an agent, whether it worked or not is just step
• 33:47
  one.
• 33:47
  Now all of a sudden, the back and the forth, whether it was efficient, whether it was clear,
• 33:51
  I keep repeating myself.
• 33:52
  I keep having to retell you what I wanna do.
• 33:54
  You keep giving me bad things back.
• 33:56
  You're not answering my question.
• 33:57
  That's miserable.
• 33:59
  And so when you think about what I believe is the promise of agentic and AI, and this is
• 34:03
  where I have this utopian view of AI.
• 34:05
  People say, well, where's AI going?
• 34:07
  Man, I I feel like AI can help us in our lives become so efficient.
• 34:11
  I mean, wouldn't it be great to just speak to your phone and buy a plane ticket to New York?
• 34:15
  I didn't have to touch anything.
• 34:17
  I just said I want this, and it went off and did it and brought it back.
• 34:20
  The efficiency in that is off the charts.
• 34:22
  So the whole premise and the concept of AI is an efficient future, an effective future, and
• 34:28
  that's where quality of experience is absolutely critical.
• 34:30
  AI will work, it doesn't mean it's efficient.
• 34:33
  Your agent will work, but it doesn't mean it was effective.
• 34:37
  And just like television, when I when we joked, if it wasn't for Conviva, we'd still be paying
• 34:40
  a cable bill.
• 34:41
  Because if streaming was a bad experience, man, I'm going back to watching it on my cable, you
• 34:46
  know, carrier network because I know that was high quality.
• 34:49
  I never had to worry about it.
• 34:50
  So we'd be back at cable.
• 34:52
  It's the same thing for the agentic future.
• 34:54
  If companies are not measuring quality of experience, if people are not measuring user
• 34:57
  quality of experience, agents will fail.
• 35:00
  Because why?
• 35:01
  It's a user based system.
• 35:03
  Meaning, I need people to use it.
• 35:05
  Just like video publishers said, I needed people to watch my streaming app.
• 35:08
  Well, make it a good experience or else they're coming back to television.
• 35:11
  It's the same with AgenTic.
• 35:13
  It's gonna repeat itself.
• 35:15
  And it's gonna be the same principles that if you build an agent and it doesn't have a good
• 35:19
  experience, people are just not gonna use it.
• 35:20
  And and it would be such a shame because the promise and what agents and what AI can do for
• 35:25
  humanity in our lives and make us more efficient would be incredible.
• 35:29
  Just like watching streaming.
• 35:30
  The fact that I can watch the Super Bowl in my car on a drive, not while I'm driving for the
• 35:35
  record as a passenger, is is delivered on the promise of streaming.
• 35:40
  Watch when, where, and how you want.
• 35:41
  And so agent has a promise too, but it will fall flat if people are not enjoying it.
• 35:47
  It's not efficient, and it's not effective.
• 35:48
  So that's that's that's our next promise is we we helped you cut your cable bill, and we
• 35:53
  created television experiences online.
• 35:56
  Now we wanna do the same for agents, and we wanna have consumers have more efficient and
• 36:00
  effective and pleasant agent experiences because that will fulfill the agent promise as
• 36:04
  well.
• 36:05
  Well, especially as companies are going to offload so much of their, like, customer
• 36:08
  service departments departments to to agents and a lot of them already are doing this, it's
• 36:13
  already a bad experience.
• 36:14
  You're not there because you wanted to call it.
• 36:16
  So you're already starting off, you know, at a little bit of a loss.
• 36:20
  Right?
• 36:20
  You're you're behind from the get go as far as quality of experience goes because nobody wants
• 36:25
  to be there.
• 36:26
  It doesn't take much on that, you know, on the sucking side to really just get you and that's
• 36:33
  gonna leave a bad taste, and that once again leads to loss of revenue as people are like,
• 36:36
  you know what?
• 36:37
  You offloaded all of this into it, and I think we got plenty of complaints just where customer
• 36:41
  service got offloaded overseas and having those kind of barriers.
• 36:45
  We have an opportunity to make things better.
• 36:47
  We should be making them better across the board, and you should be measuring that
• 36:51
  experience to make things better.
• 36:54
  And I think that's what, Conviva does best is to sit in between that, to sit as a consumer
• 36:59
  and to use and to track this data, and not just as one consumer, but as all of them across the
• 37:06
  board, and to feed that back to your clients, the publishers, or, you know, the companies
• 37:11
  that are now, you know, deploying these agents out there in whatever form they might be and
• 37:17
  tracking that experience is so important.
• 37:19
  It's the most valuable to me.
• 37:20
  I think it's the most valuable quotient that you can even measure anything by anymore.
• 37:25
  It means everything.
• 37:26
  And and and and that's where I say we wanna we wanna ride that wave with the users.
• 37:31
  Our our our stakeholder, the person that we measure and that we show, hey.
• 37:34
  This is not good is the users.
• 37:36
  And that's why I want users to understand this.
• 37:38
  People are using agents or they're watching video, and it's bad.
• 37:41
  It doesn't have to be like that.
• 37:43
  And it's like that's why I said we could be Dolby in those situations, and we wanna be.
• 37:46
  We want to help we we wanted to help, you know, streaming become what it could have been, and
• 37:50
  now it is.
• 37:50
  And now, again, we look at AI and agents, we wanna help deliver on what the promise of that
• 37:54
  can be.
• 37:55
  And, if you let agent a quality of experience that you're getting in front of your agent,
• 37:59
  man, we see some of the traces and conversations and the support agents we're
• 38:02
  helping optimize today.
• 38:03
  And when we turn it on and we get those traces, there are more f bombs in customer support
• 38:07
  agents than there is, you know, on, like, late night television.
• 38:11
  It is crazy how many people lose their minds.
• 38:15
  And and here's the crazy part.
• 38:16
  Those companies have no idea.
• 38:18
  I mean, you are absolutely blowing a gasket, and those companies don't know that you're
• 38:22
  you're you're struggling like that.
• 38:24
  They can find out later.
• 38:25
  They grab the conversation and go, oh, okay.
• 38:26
  Let's figure this out.
• 38:27
  This happened.
• 38:28
  We show it in real time.
• 38:29
  So as you're having a bad experience, our mission is that we want that whoever provide
• 38:33
  that agent to know, okay.
• 38:34
  You're having a bad experience.
• 38:35
  Let me weigh in here.
• 38:35
  Or even worse, flip it to a human, get you out of that automated unemotional, you know, loop
• 38:42
  and and get it to a human.
• 38:43
  Those are the types of things when quality of experience is driving the agent's success
• 38:46
  success that the the the business can see and react to.
• 38:49
  And therefore, cut down on all those f bombs and those high blood pressures and, you know,
• 38:53
  the the the absolute vitriol that comes out in those conversations.
• 38:59
  Well and we're so accustomed to talking to a robot now.
• 39:01
  I I had to call in in office and and just assumed, and she's like, no.
• 39:05
  This is the secretary.
• 39:06
  And I was like, woah.
• 39:07
  Excuse I pardon me for assuming you were a robot.
• 39:12
  I'm so used to, you know, talking in a way and not that I was dropping f bombs on her or
• 39:17
  anything, but just in the way that I I wasn't having a conversation with a human being.
• 39:21
  And I think that's really what, the hope for a, you know, AgenTic AI and these agents
• 39:27
  specifically in these sales or, you know, customer service roles that I think it's gonna
• 39:31
  be the easiest to deploy them in and saves the companies at the top the most money, right,
• 39:36
  because you're not paying humans to be in all of those to solve problems that are, you know,
• 39:40
  frequently asked questions to deploy those, to make that experience feel a little bit less
• 39:45
  like you're talking to a machine and to provide that, which means that it has to think faster.
• 39:51
  It has to deploy itself at the rate that a human being would as well, and and that's a
• 39:57
  that's a big hill to overcome.
• 39:58
  And without the data and without that feedback coming instantaneously, you're never going to
• 40:02
  get there.
• 40:03
  Yes.
• 40:03
  And then by the way, agents don't fail monolithically.
• 40:06
  It could be a topic you're talking about the agent is struggling with.
• 40:08
  So it's not as if the agent has a red light that comes on and the company responds.
• 40:12
  The agent's not doing well.
• 40:13
  Agents do well in some areas and not others.
• 40:16
  The key is do you know what they're struggling in?
• 40:18
  So your topic or the question you're asking, something you're doing, could it be triggering
• 40:22
  the agent in a bad way?
• 40:23
  Fix that.
• 40:24
  You don't fix an agent in general.
• 40:25
  You fix very specific pieces of the agent.
• 40:27
  So the key is just like video.
• 40:29
  Know where the problem is because it's always gonna be a small part somewhere and fix that
• 40:32
  problem because it's affecting people.
• 40:34
  And you touched on what I say is the ultimate measure of agent success that you won't know
• 40:38
  it's not human.
• 40:39
  That's when you know you've delivered a perfect agent is I didn't know it wasn't human.
• 40:44
  That's when we've achieved what I think is the promise of AgenTik.
• 40:48
  Yeah.
• 40:48
  Which means plenty of work for ConeViva, to help these companies get there.
• 40:53
  We're here
• 40:53
  for it.
• 40:54
  We're here
• 40:54
  for it.
• 40:55
  Well and your competitive spirit, I think, serves you very well in this space.
• 41:00
  It's obviously why you're, you know, at the head of the company now and really driving this
• 41:05
  into the future, and and we'll continue to do so for a long time.
• 41:09
  There's always gonna be another challenge to help people overcome, and and you're really in
• 41:13
  a, you're really in a customer service business yourself because you are helping everyone.
• 41:18
  You're helping the users by providing a better experience to them, by supplying their data to
• 41:23
  the company so that they can make those decisions and improve their user experience.
• 41:28
  So, it's gotta be a very fulfilling job for you and everyone over at Conviva.
• 41:32
  We're having a we're having a blast.
• 41:34
  And the the best part is it's twenty years of our experience.
• 41:36
  The fact that everything we built in the technology layer for video is actually being
• 41:40
  repurposed for agent.
• 41:41
  So it's not even that we see a problem, and we're gonna go solve that problem next.
• 41:45
  It's actually the technology that we built for video is is is ideally built for now agent as
• 41:49
  well.
• 41:50
  So that's why we can go out and support agent at scale.
• 41:52
  Because a lot of these new AI companies, there's upstarts.
• 41:55
  Right?
• 41:55
  You give them a million streams and they fall over.
• 41:57
  Right?
• 41:57
  You give them 10,000,000 conversations, they break.
• 41:59
  They have to sample.
• 42:00
  Right?
• 42:00
  You companies that say I sample, they sample for a reason.
• 42:04
  They can't handle scale.
• 42:05
  They're not ready.
• 42:06
  So the cool part of what we're doing to drive this agent success and help agents fulfill
• 42:10
  their promise, we can support that scale because we we're already doing it in video.
• 42:14
  We're already in 8,000,000,000 devices.
• 42:16
  We're already seeing, you know, 10,000,000,000,000 events a day.
• 42:19
  Now we flip over to agents who are built for it.
• 42:21
  So that's why we really wanna participate heavy.
• 42:23
  And as people look at agents, we're ready not only to help them solve the biggest challenge
• 42:27
  agent's success, but also the scale that will come with it.
• 42:31
  Well, when I'm having that conversation with an agent a few years from now and I forget that it
• 42:36
  is a computer whatsoever, I'll have you to thank Keith and your team over at HomeViva.
• 42:41
  Yep.
• 42:41
  Just the thank you in that moment would be great, and hopefully, they paid us well.
• 42:45
  That's that's the deal that I'll make.
• 42:47
  Of course.
• 42:48
  Well, absolutely incredible conversation.
• 42:50
  Really appreciate your time.
• 42:52
  Everyone, you can check out Conviva online, conviva.ai.
• 42:56
  That's conviva.ai.
• 43:00
  Follow the company on LinkedIn.
• 43:01
  You can shoot them a message over there as well.
• 43:03
  A huge thank you to you, Keith.
• 43:05
  You you didn't have to come on and talk about all this stuff with me, but I sure appreciate
• 43:09
  the education.
• 43:10
  And, thank you for my World Cup experience and and the Super Bowl as well.
• 43:15
  I I appreciate it.
• 43:16
  Well, I appreciate you having me.
• 43:18
  Anytime, man.
• 43:19
  Anytime you wanna talk, let me know.
• 43:21
  We'll we'll we'll, we'll talk about the next big topics that are hitting us in the next
• 43:24
  couple months.
• 43:26
  Can't wait.
• 43:26
  Keith, thank you for being part of the scene.
• 43:29
  Absolutely.
• 43:29
  Thank you.