Latest / The 47 Morning Update with Ben Ferguson / Justice Clarence Thomas—a True America Hero

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Justice Clarence Thomas—a True America Hero · The 47 Morning Update with Ben Ferguson

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome.
• 0:00
  Speaker 2: It is Verdict with Senator Ted Cruz, Ben Ferguson with you.
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: And we are back to regularly scheduled programming after what
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: was really cool, a two-part sit-down, Senator, that you did
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: with Clarence Thomas. Now it's my turn to get to
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: talk to you about how fun it was to do
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: this project and to write about someone that you had
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: so much admiration for.
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: Well, this has been a terrific week. On Tuesday, my
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: brand new book came out. Going Further, The Incomparable Clarence Thomas.
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: And it's my fifth book. This one has really been
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: a labor of love. I've loved writing it. It came
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: out on Tuesday. It immediately rocketed to being the number
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: one bestseller in the country on Amazon. It has been incredible.
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: I want to start by saying to Verdict listeners, to
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: all of you, thank you. Thank you for going onto
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: Amazon and buying the book. Thank you for going. We
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: have a website, goingfurther.com, goingfurther.com. Thank you for buying the book.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: um it has been there's been a lot of enthusiasm
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: behind it and and we monday and wednesdays pods were
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: really special because justice thomas came and and i had
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: the chance to interview him one-on-one for the podcast this
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: was the first and it's the only podcast justice thomas
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: has ever done so he has done verdict and nothing
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: else and and and it was you know justice thomas
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: and i go back more than 30 years he he
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: is a good friend and i think he is truly
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: an american hero but He very rarely does interviews. He
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: does very few public speeches. And so for him to
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: come and participate in verdict and answer questions and just talk,
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: talk candidly about his life, about his childhood, his upbringing,
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: talk about his ideological and intellectual journey, talk about his jurisprudence,
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: talk about the demonization and vilification that has been directed
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: at him. And it's, I got to say, The interview
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: with Justice Thomas broke a ton of news. There have
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: been dozens and dozens of news stories, national news stories,
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: that came out of that podcast because Justice Thomas does
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: so few interviews and because when he sat down on verdict,
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: he was very honest and candid and direct, and so
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: he spoke from the heart. I will say, if you
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: didn't watch that whole video, it's two parts. Monday was
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: part one. Wednesday was part two. You should go back
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: and watch it because it really does give you I
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: know the man, I know him personally, but I will
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: say that interview, that interview now ranks right up there
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: with the interview you and I did with Elon Musk
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: as among my favorite podcasts we've ever done. And so
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: I would encourage you, make sure you watch it and
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: share that interview with others. And hopefully this one too,
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: as we talk more about the book, which we're going
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: to do right now.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really awesome. All right, I want to take
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: a moment real quick and talk to you about something
• 2:47
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• 2:52
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• 3:52
  Speaker 2: let's just go back in time and let people understand
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: when this became an idea to do the biography of
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: Clarence Thomas. I remember we were at dinner in D.C.,
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: And we were talking about your next book idea, subjects, topics, ideas.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: And then you grinned and you said, all right, what
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: do you think about me doing a book interviewing Clarence Thomas?
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: And usually I remember we were sitting around a small
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: group and it was like, well, that's not normally what
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: you do. And then you sold us on the idea
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: because we're normally it's a subject. It's going into midterm
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: election year. It'd be something that would be important to
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: what's happening now.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: And you're like, no, no, no.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: Let me tell you why I think this book would
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: be amazing and why I think people would want to
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: read it. And you sold us because we were not
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: convinced in that moment without the details in the background.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: And watching, just seeing your passion that night turn into
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: the hours you spent with Clarence Thomas, turning into this
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: bestselling book. I got to say, from sitting on the sidelines,
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: it has been so fun to watch.
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: This has been a passion project. And we came up
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: with the ideas about two years ago. Uh, you know,
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: I was thinking about art. I want to do another
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: book and I like writing books. I enjoy it. This
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: is book number five. So I've done one about every
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: couple of years and, and it takes, you know, it
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: takes a ton of time. You have to carve out
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: a lot of time and I do a lot of
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: late nights. If I'm not doing verdict in late nights,
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: I'm writing the book that, that that's, you can tell
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: I have an exciting social life. It's really, really impressive. Uh, But,
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: you know, I like writing books. I was looking for
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: a topic and something I wanted to say. And what
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: got me.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: Excited about this biography.
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: Is Clarence Thomas is someone who I think is genuinely
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: an American hero. He's an extraordinary person. And his life
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: journey is so inspirational. It's so powerful.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: But yet most people don't know it. Most Americans.
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: It's interesting that this week I'm doing a ton of
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: media interviews. And almost to a person, the folks doing
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: the interviews, they say, well, when I read this book,
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: I learned a ton of things that I didn't know.
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: I didn't know this about Clarence Thomas. I didn't know
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: that about Clarence Thomas. And it's I want every American
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: to know his story and to know both his personal
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: story of going from abject poverty facing massive racism all
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: the way up to the pinnacle of American law. That
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: is an inspirational and amazing story. But I also want
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: people to understand the intellectual journey he traveled from being
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: a hardcore leftist, a radical leftist student activist.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: He was an OG activist, by the way. People don't understand.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: He was an old school college activist.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: A radical. A radical, yeah.
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: And all the way to being one of the most
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: important conservative activists thinkers in the history of america that
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: that's an amazing journey too and it's important to understand
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: and then third his jurisprudence so so clarence thomas is
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: right now uh the second longest serving justice in american
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: history in less than two years he will become the
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: longest serving justice in the history of the united states
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: that's a big damn deal uh and.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: By the way who is the longest serving because that's
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: got to be a history question people are asking right
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: now It's not.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: You're the first to ask that. The longest serving is
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: William O. Douglas. Interesting. And Thomas will pass him, I think,
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: in May of 28. Wow.
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: But if you look at it in those more than
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: 30 years, he has some extraordinary opinions. His jurisprudence has
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: been massively consequential. And most people, if you're not a lawyer,
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: if you're not a constitutional... lawyer, you probably don't know
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: what Clarence Thomas's opinions have said.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: And so what I wanted to do in this.
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: Book is talk about all three, his personal journey, his
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: intellectual journey, but also the body of work that he
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: has produced as one of the most consequential justices in history.
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: And what I try to do in the book is
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: what I try to do on the podcast, which is
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: explain things in terms that are understandable, that are real,
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: You don't have to be a lawyer to enjoy this book.
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: You don't have to be a constitutional law expert any
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: more than to listen to this podcast. You don't have
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: to be an expert or you don't have to be
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: a lawyer. You don't have to be a foreign policy expert.
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: I try to take issues that matter, that matter to
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: you in your life, and I try to explain them
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: with detail, with meat, with substance, but also in language
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: that is understandable. And actually, I would say some of
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: the philosophy of the book is, goes back to the
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: philosophy of this verdict podcast. We just launched it, what now,
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: five years ago. When we started going on air and
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: the podcast went from, the very first verdict podcast was
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: the first night of the first Trump impeachment. And I
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: spent all day on the Senate floor and the jury
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: of impeachment went over to the TV studio and recorded
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: the inaugural verdict. And we did it every night at
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: like midnight or one in the morning. assessing what happened.
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: And I remember my production crew at the time, they
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: said when we did the first few, their advice was
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: dumb it down. They said this is too sophisticated, too complicated.
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: And I really resisted that. I said, listen, I don't
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: believe that. I do not believe that people want dumbed down.
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: What they do want is understandable. And the analogy that
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: I've used many times is... If you or I go
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: to a doctor and we've got some horrible disease, nobody
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: wants the doctor to say, Ben, you've got a boo-boo.
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: You're like, Doc, tell me what the hell's going on.
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: But at the same time, you don't want the doctor
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: to use a bunch of medical jargon that you have
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: to have an MD to understand. So you want a
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: serious and complicated issue explained in English in a way
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: that you can follow it. That's what I try to
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: do on this podcast. I try to explain all sorts
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: of things. So during the first impeachment, that series of podcasts,
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: I would explain, you know, what is Ukraine? What is Burisma,
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: the natural gas company in Ukraine? What is impeachment? What
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: are high crimes and misdemeanors? Just basic questions, but that
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: if you're not an expert, there's no reason you should know.
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: That worked and the verdict podcast went from zero to
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: it became the number one ranked podcast in the world.
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: With the book, I try to do the same thing,
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: which is take really important and consequential issues before the
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: Supreme Court, but explain it in a way that everyone
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: can understand it. And I'll say, Ben, one thing that
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: makes that much easier is is that is also very
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: much Justice Thomas's approach to writing opinions.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: His opinions, by the way, if you've never read a
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: Justice Thomas opinion, when he was writing opinions and I
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: was younger and it was big cases... I would always grab,
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: if he wrote an opinion, whether it was in favor
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: or against you in dissent, I would read it because
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: I could understand exactly what he was saying, whereas there's
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: others on the Supreme Court, they write opinions, and if
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: you're not a lawyer or a constitutional law geek, you
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: do not understand exactly what they're saying.
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: He very much writes opinions that are plain, prose, understandable.
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: There are justices who are renowned for highfalutin prose and
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: ten-penny words, and at times you can't understand what the
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: heck they're saying. Thomas believes every American ought to have
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: a right to understand what the Supreme Court is saying,
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: understand their Constitution, their rights, their Bill of Rights. I
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: tell a story in the book about how he was
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: visiting Gettysburg, and this fellow comes up to him, with
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: an opinion printed on parchment. And it was an opinion,
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: it was an admiralty opinion. It was not a high-profile opinion.
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: It was not an opinion that was known by a
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: lot of people. It was one Thomas has written. And
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: he said, you know, Justice Thomas, can you sign this
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: for me?
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: He said, sure.
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: And he said, the fellow said, this is what it's
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: all about. And Thomas looks at him confused, and he's
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: like looking out over the battlefield at Gettysburg. He said, Gettysburg,
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: this was all about an admiralty opinion? And the guy said, no, no, no.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: This I can understand this. I can read it. I
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: know what it's saying. And that's what the battle where
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: the citizens, we should be able to understand our government.
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: And that was that is very much consistent with how
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: Justice Thomas tries to write his opinions. And it's how
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: I try to write this book.
• 12:44
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• 14:35
  Speaker 2: of the cool things about it is, is there's a
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: couple of really, I think interesting points, which readers will
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: love when they read this book. And it goes back to,
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: not only the upbringing of Clarence Thomas, which you cover,
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: and a lot of poverty, but also the fact, and
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: this got some headlines this week from the interview that
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: you did on this podcast with him. Clarence Thomas has
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: experienced two extreme forms of racism in his lifetime. The
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: first was just racism because he was African-American. The second
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: form of racism was later in life, and that is
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: where people assume because he was African-American, he should believe
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: or say certain things. And then when he went against
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: that narrative of what they believed he should say because
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: he's a black man, that was a second form of racism.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: And part of you thinks, well, I bet you didn't
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: see that one coming when he was dealing with the
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: first type of racism when he was younger.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: Well, but in many ways he did. And you look
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: at the two components.
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: Let's start with his life story and racism directed against
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: African Americans. Look, he was born in 1948, so just
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: three years after World War II ends. And he was
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: born in Pinpoint, Georgia, rural Georgia, on the coast of Georgia. Actually,
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: English was not his first language. His first language was
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: called Geechee, and it is a Creole dialect. Uh, that is,
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: is common on the Georgia and South Carolina barrier islands.
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: And in South Carolina, it's called Gala and Georgia is
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: called Geechee. Um, he was born and raised initially by
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: a single mom who had a lot of issues and
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: who struggled. They were in extreme poverty. They lived in
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: a tenement that did not have indoor plumbing. He did
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: not have a toilet in the house. They had an
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: outhouse outside. They used a chamber pot. And then he
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: tells a story when he was a little boy, he
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: was carrying a full chamber pot down the stairs.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: And he tripped and fell and the whole thing dumped
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: on him and.
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: He was curled up in a ball at the base
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: of the stairs, just drenched in stale urine. And I
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: gotta say that is not a typical beginning for a
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: Supreme court justice.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: Um, he, uh, from a young age, his mom was
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: not able to care for him. So he ended up
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: being raised by his grandparents, uh, and his grandparents, his grandfather,
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: Myers Anderson, who he called daddy, uh, was the most
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: important and influential man in Clarence Thomas' life. And he
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: was a hard man. He was a strict disciplinarian. The
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: day Clarence and his brother moved into their grandparents' house,
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: Myers-Anderson said, boy, the damn vacation is over. And it
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: says something like the life of squalor he was living in.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: Not many people would call that a vacation. But Myers-Anderson did.
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: He believed in hard work. and he would work those boys,
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: he would get up at three or four in the morning,
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: and they'd go with him delivering heating fuel. And they'd
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: do it often in bitter early mornings in the winter
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: when it was cold outside. And he would not let
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: the boys wear gloves. He thought gloves were a sign
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: of weakness and you needed to be tough, you needed
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: to be strong. And he would work them, he'd work
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: them from before the sun came up till late, late
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: at night. And at one point when he was a teenager,
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: Clarence said to his grandfather, daddy, slavery is over. And
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: without missing a beat, his grandfather said, not in this house,
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: it's not. And he instilled discipline in those boys. The
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: one exception, the one way they could get out of
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: hard work was reading in school. And both of Clarence
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: Thomas's grandparents were illiterate. They couldn't read, they couldn't write,
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: and they wanted their grandsons to have a better life.
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: And so Young Clarence Thomas would spend hours in the
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: library just reading everything he could get his hands on,
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: and reading and reading. He became a very good student.
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: He still, to this day, devours books. And he was
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: an excellent student. And as a young man, he decided
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: he had found what he wanted to do in life.
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: And it wasn't to be a lawyer. It wasn't to
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: be a judge. He wanted to be a priest. His
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: grandfather was a very devout Catholic. And Clarence Thomas was
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: raised as an altar boy, and he really loved the discipline,
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: the ritual, the order, the structure of the Catholic Church.
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: He loved and respected that the priests and nuns, that
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: they cared for the community. The nuns who taught him
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: in Catholic school had a really profound impact on his life,
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: and so he decided, I'm going to be a priest.
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: And he went to seminary, both in high school and college,
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: he went to seminary. And he encountered real racism in seminary.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: When he was in seminary in high school, he was
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: one of only two black boys in the seminary. And
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: he recounts a story of one of the white boys
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: who was there passing him a note. And the note said,
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: I like Martin Luther King. And he remembers being surprised.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: He didn't expect him to say that. And then he
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: turned the paper over and on the back it said, dead.
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: And that really hit Clarence Thomas hard. Another instance, you know,
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: the kids in seminary would make fun of him. They
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: would call him WBC, world's blackest child. One of the
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: ways he responded to that was by excelling academically and
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: proving himself. And so, for example, Latin He became a
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: very good Latin student, and he liked, again, the structure
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: and order of Latin. And they had a competition, the
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: Latin Bee, where you competed translating Latin, and he won it.
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: He was the top Latin student at the school, and
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: they gave him a prize. It was a statue of St. Jude.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: And he was really proud of that, and he put
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: it in his dorm room. And the next day when
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: he came, someone had broken the head off the statue.
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: and so he went and got some glue, and he
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: glued the head back on and set it back up
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: on his bookcase, and the next day, someone had broken
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: the head off again, and he glued it a second time,
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: and it stuck after that. They didn't break it a
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: third time, but when I went to interview him, and
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: Justice Thomas agreed to sit for nine and a half
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: hours of interviews in his chambers for this book, and
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: so he.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: And I went one-on-one.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: I'd come at 8 in the morning and sit down
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: in chambers, and it was just him and me. I'd
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: sit down a tape recorder and just ask questions. One
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: of the first questions I asked is I had heard
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: about the statue of St. Jude, which he kept with
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: him his whole life. And I said, hey, where's that statue?
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: I'd really like to see it. And he kind of chuckled.
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: He said, well, I don't have it anymore. And I said, well,
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: what happened? And he sent it to your friend and
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: to my friend, Rush Limbaugh.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: Rush was a dear friend of his, and when Rush
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: was sick, when Rush had cancer... Justice Thomas sent him
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: the statue of St. Jude to give him comfort and
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: peace as he was dying, and he never got it
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: back from Rush, but it's kind of that statue was well-served,
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: comforting another great American hero, Rush Limbaugh.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: All right, I do want to take a moment and
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: talk to you about something that is just amazing. And
• 21:51
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• 21:54
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• 22:13
  Speaker 2: finish college. That's because sponsorship isn't just temporary relief. It
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: is a long-term investment through the local church, and they're
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  Speaker 2: meeting the physical needs while sharing the hope of Jesus.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: I am sponsoring a child at Compassion, and I can
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• 22:44
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• 22:50
  Speaker 2: You know, there's so many people that are listening or
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: watching this podcast, and they know Clarence Thomas as the
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: guy who had to defend himself from horrific attacks during
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: his confirmation hearing.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: There is so much about him that is not that.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: One of those is the fact that he was, as
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: we mentioned earlier, a radical in school, and then there
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: was a turning point. You got to talk about that
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: as well.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: Well, I did.
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: After his high school seminary, he went to college seminary.
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: And there, he ended up becoming disillusioned with the Church,
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: and he got angry at God. And he was disillusioned
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: at the Church because he thought the Church was very
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: slow to condemn racial discrimination, racial prejudice, that the Church
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: was slow to defend civil rights. And a point that
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: I make in the book and that I discuss with
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: Justice Thomas is, look, that was true of the Catholic Church,
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: it was true of the Protestant Church, it was true
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: Christians as a whole were far too slow to stand
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: up on the side of justice and condemn bigotry.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: And, you know, Dr.
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: Martin Luther King, many people forget that he was also
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: Reverend King. He was a pastor. And when he wrote
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: the letter from a Birmingham jail, and for several years
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: I've gone to the Senate floor and participated in a
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: bipartisan reading of the letter from a Birmingham jail, where
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: you have Republicans and Democrats read it out loud, and
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: it is so powerful. We've all read it in school,
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: but reading the words out loud just gives it additional
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: weight and gravitas. But many people forget to whom that
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: letter was addressed. Do you remember who it was addressed to, Ben?
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: I do not. It was addressed to the clergy of America.
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: Wow. And it was Reverend King saying to the pastors,
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: to the priests, stand up and fight for what's right.
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: Do not be silent. And my favorite line of that
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: whole letter was Reverend King saying the church should be
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: a thermostat and not a thermometer. We should be changing
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: the temperature of our environment. We shouldn't just reflect what's
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: around us. So Thomas becomes disillusioned. He becomes angry, angry
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: at God. He leaves seminary and he leaves the church.
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: He goes to Holy Cross for college and then Yale
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: for law school. And for years he refuses to attend mass.
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: I mean, he's really angry. He is now once again,
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: a very devout Catholic. He came back to God, came
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: back to his faith, but it took many years. And
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: when he was in college, when he was in law school,
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: he went hard left, and he became a bitter, angry radical.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: He was mad at God, he was mad at the church,
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: he was mad at America, he was mad at white men.
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: And I will tell you, his leaving the seminary ruptured
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: his relationship with his grandfather. His grandfather was adamant that
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: when you do something, you don't quit. And when he quit...
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: His grandfather threw him out of the house. And it
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: may well be the single hardest chapter in Clarence Thomas'
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: life when his grandfather, who he called Daddy, who raised him,
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: the man he admired more than anyone else, threw him out.
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: It was crushing to Clarence Thomas. And he was a radical.
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: He wore camo pants and combat boots. He had a
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: poster of Malcolm X on the wall. He would go
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: to Black Panther rallies. He participated in a riot in
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: Harvard Square. He was a young, angry man in college.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: You hear that part of the story, and this is
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: where it goes back to faith. God used all of
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: that to then turn him and probably prepare him for
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: the biggest, I would say, personal attack we had ever
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: seen publicly at that time on somebody either, A, I
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: think in the political world, certainly trying to get on
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: the Supreme Court, where the left decided, we believe that
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: this man is such a threat that we're going to
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: try to stop him. And he was a threat on
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: so many different levels as a conservative, as a conservative
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: African-American man. As someone that they understood by his age,
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: he could serve for a very long time. We talked
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: about that earlier. You've known him for a long time.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: But what are the takeaways now looking back on his
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: confirmation hearing? And the whole world stopped, certainly all of America,
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: to watch it. And some of the horrific things that
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: were thrown at him trying to derail his confirmation. Now,
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: others have had to deal with it since then. It
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: was almost a playbook now by the left. If you
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: want to get rid of somebody, I've heard it be
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: said before by Democrats, we need to Clarence Thomas that nominee.
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: You're absolutely right. His confirmation hearing was brutal. It was
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: a character assassination. It was, as he famously said on
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: national television, it was a high-tech lynching for uppity Negroes.
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: And I will tell you those words silenced the Senate
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: Judiciary Committee. In the book, I walk through the behind
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: the scenes of that brutal confirmation hearing. They follow the
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: same strategy that they did with Brett Kavanaugh. I talk
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: about that in the book, comparing the two. Obviously, Brett
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: Kavanaugh was a very active part of that confirmation hearing.
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: But in both instances, the Democrat senators had allegations of
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: sexual assault or sexual harassment. They had them for weeks
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: ahead of the hearing. They sat on them. They did
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: nothing with them. They didn't ask the nominees about them.
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: And then on the eve of the vote, they leaked
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: them to the press and just smeared them in the press.
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: By the way, Justice Thomas talks about the chairman of
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: the Judiciary Committee during his hearing, that was Joe Biden,
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: who Joe Biden was deeply dishonest with him, said one
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: thing to Thomas and then just broke his word and
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: lied repeatedly. And it was in both instances, Clarence Thomas
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: was confirmed because the American people looked him in the
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: eye in the hearing and they looked Anita Hill in
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: the eye and by a two to one margin, two
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: thirds of Americans believed Clarence Thomas and did not believe
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: Anita Hill's allegations. The same thing was true with Brett Kavanaugh.
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: That's why he was confirmed. You know, the book that
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: I wrote, it begins with the following. Imagine a man
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: who came from nothing, who endured bleak poverty, who stood
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: up to crushing racism, who is right now on track
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: to become the longest serving Supreme Court justice in American history.
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: You don't have to imagine that man, of course, is
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: the incomparable Clarence Thomas. There is nobody else quite like him.
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: Somebody so extraordinary, you would think, would be venerated. And
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: if he were politically liberal, he would be. Change that
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: one small fact and dozens of law schools would have
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: given him an honorary degree. Elementary schools would be named
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: after him. Late night hosts would invite him on adoringly.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: And chic t-shirts, think notorious RBG, would be aggressively marketed
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: to young people. Instead, the response is silence and hate.
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: It's time for that silence to end. I wrote this
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: book because this man is a hero, and this is
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: a time where we're so divided, we're so angry, we
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: distrust each other so.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: Much, that we need heroes. We need role models. Amen
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: to that.
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: And I wrote this book because I admire Clarence Thomas,
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: and I want people to know his story. And if
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: you're looking for a role model in life, and if
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: you're not, you should be, because we all need role models.
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: It would be very hard for you to do better
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: than Clarence Thomas. So I just want to ask our
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: wonderful verdict listeners, and you guys are the best and
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: most passionate and engaged and informed group of Americans and
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: patriots on planet Earth. If you haven't gone and bought
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: the book, please go buy it. You will enjoy it.
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: I'm promising you this is a fun read.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: You will learn. You will laugh.
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: You will have insight for the same reason you listen
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: to the podcast, because hopefully when you're done, you learn
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: something that you didn't know when you sat down to it.
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: The book will do the same.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Go buy it.
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: And I want to encourage you to give it to
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: your loved ones. Give it to your kids or your
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: grandkids or your brother or your mom or your dad.
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: It's a Christmas gift. It's a birthday gift. I wrote
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: this book. Because I want people to know this story,
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: and there is nobody better than the Verdict listeners to
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: ensure that people know the extraordinary hero.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: Know who the man is.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: You will read this book, and you will understand and
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: know Clarence Thomas in a very different way than you
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: know him right now.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: All right, don't forget, grab the book, and also don't
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: miss a single episode of Verdict with Ted Cruz wherever
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: you get your podcasts. We do this show Monday, Wednesday, Friday,
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: so hit that subscribe or auto-download button, and the Senator
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: and I will see you back here in a couple
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: of days.