Latest / Lets Stick Together / Big picture questions with Simon Orchard

Transcript

Big picture questions with Simon Orchard · Lets Stick Together

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: In this episode, we're joined by Ozzy, Simon Orchard, to talk through some big picture hockey, all the questions for him, Punda Tree, content guy.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's all coming next.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right, it's Let's Stick Together.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Episode three, brought to you by Y One.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: We've got an extra special episode for you guys today.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: We have uh Badgered, the one and only Simon Orchard, to finally come on to Let's Stick Together and join us for um I don't know, are we gonna have a friendly chat?
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe some Australian, English, Dutch beef.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Simon, thanks so much, mate.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: How's how's it going?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, great to be here, fellas.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Long-awaited uh appearance on the show.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'd say I'm a fan, uh, but boys, what's with the lack of content?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: You're like doing the opposite of everyone else in the world.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: You put out two episodes a year, I eagerly await to hear them, and then finally I get on the show and my main man, Brendan, is gone.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: He's vanished.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: My favourite part of the show has been cut loose, and uh yeah, I'm I'm a little bit disenchanted with that because mate, honestly, listening to you guys, anyone who does hockey content is great, but um we don't really know each other, right?
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's fair to say.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: You we've had a couple of run-ins here and there uh in the Instagram DMs, but I always like to think what people are like, and um Phil, for you, I was trying to think who would you remind me of?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you've talked about this a bit, but the in-between is one of my favourite British shows of all time.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: And Will, the briefcase wanker, just I don't know, I just get a bit of a vibe that maybe Phil gives off Will.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh for you, Kramer from Seinfeld just bursting in, saying all the inappropriate things at the wrong time.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: And Brandon always struck me as John Ham, just a handsome, good-looking, dumb guy who was just getting through life on um, but I don't know any of you, so hopefully those those um assessments are somewhat accurate.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: What do you reckon?
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: I think they're uh painfully accurate to be honest.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think especially the briefcase wanker for Phil is very spot on.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um I actually do I do uh because I wanted to start off with that.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: I do know uh Simon uh he doesn't know me, but I do know him from a long time.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um because uh when Simon used to play at Tilburg, my hometown.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um I don't know if you remember you played there because you were quite drunk all the time, uh I think, but um when you played there, you actually had to do uh referee duties uh when you and you had to uh referee the under 14s, and I was uh playing that game.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_03: Uh um and you were refereeing, and you were also quite enjoying the the play.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I scored a goal at that game, and then you said, Oh, great goal, mate, but what a shit stick you have.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: When I was a little kid who all always started bothering you watching the man's first team, uh yeah, I have a shit stick, give me a stick, Dad, give me a stick.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I actually you gave me one of your like uh the old school voodoo bolt sticks, 38 and a half inch, and I was still I think uh uh four foot five, but play with it for like three seasons in a row because you gave me the stick.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: So that's where I you kind of rang a bell with me, and you were you were quite drunk when you gave me the stick, because I don't think uh now I know that you get you got a shitload of sticks back then, but that was like my first interaction with you, and also I think the last until last uh last winter, but that's how that's how we met.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I I'm sure you don't remember, but big fan.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, there you go.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a nice guy sometimes, or under the influence of alcohol, potentially.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course I remember Tilburg.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: It was some of the best days of my life.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, living and playing overseas.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: We had two stints, Tilburg and then Laren, different ends of town, right?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Tilburg, maybe Unitown, uh bare bones of their bum in some areas, and then Laren, very fancy and elitist in some other areas.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: But no, a really good experience.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I don't remember that, you, but I do remember um it's funny, mate.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked a bit in Instagram in the last year or so, right?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it started to get to the point almost where you would reply, uh, you would be messaging, man.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you get those social guidelines that say, Are you safe?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Are you feeling okay?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: When someone is messaging too many times and you're not replying.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's how it started to get with you just coming at me, man.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then finally we met at Pro League in Sydney.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: You'd been talking up a big game, all this partying and all these fun and all these beers.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Phil, to Yupe after the game, hey, let's go.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to go out?
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: And straight away he said, Oh, your own actually doesn't let us.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: We have to go back and prepare for the match tomorrow.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it was the ultimate uh fail in terms of I thought you was the party guy, but clearly just all talk.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: He is very needy.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a full-time professional.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a very professional guy.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_03: I I I was to be honest, because now I want to set the record straight because he's now you come all Billy Bug Big Boss at me.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_03: But uh, I said I was staying for another week in Australia and you said, ah nah, mate, the travel is too far.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: That that's how it went.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: I invited you for a beer, and you said travel is too far because you live somewhere in fucking Newcastle or something.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: I thought Newcastle wasn't England, but yeah, two hours.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh look, next time.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Next time you're in Sydney for the pro leg, eh?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, we digressed.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: What do you want to what do you got on your notepad there, mate?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: What do you want to discuss today?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's okay.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: We haven't we haven't even managed to do an introduction or anything, but I'll but I mean I kind of I kind of like that.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the first my only first comment on that, you know, ramble was you thinking that you giving you a voodoo stick was gonna be an upgrade.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: So that's uh that's an interesting start.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: But and obviously to slide straight into what we have to do here, we are we are a podcast brought to you by Y1 Hockey.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: The uh the Black Friday prototype deals are coming, and uh you need to you need to go on Thursday the 27th.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know when this is being released because we're not professional, but 5 pm release.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: If you want early access to them, sticks they sell out quick.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: There's only a hundred of each one.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: You need to get onto Y1 Hockey, sign up for early access on the Y1 community.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that's my uh my shameless pluck done.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: Simon, obviously on to you.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: We I think we've got you at a really good time because it's the middle of the or maybe the middle towards the end of the Hockey One League in Australia.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um we've spoken about you a lot.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, we've had these funny things where you've you've had a go at our season length, and I'm sure there's many more things that you can pick apart with uh with Let's Stick Together.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: But before we start, I want to just say like you are now the host, the podcaster, the general funny content guy.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: You're putting out a lot of good stuff, but you were actually a fairly good hockey player for anyone who is who is very young and didn't know.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: We have to do this to everyone, sorry mate.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you you've won two World Cups, you've won two Commonwealth Games gold medals, you've won a bronze medal in in London Olympics.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you had 209 appearances for the Cooker Burrers, scoring 56 goals, which surprised me a little bit.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: Didn't know you uh bagged that many.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, I just wanted to make sure that people know, you know, you you you know what you're talking about.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when you come up people, you know what you you know you've got a bit behind you.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, very nice.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: Phil, I'll have to put that money straight in your bank account, mate, for the good read.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Look, I I was fortunate in a way that I rode the coattails of some of the greatest we've ever had.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, part of it, you know, you need you need a sum of all parts to be a good team, but you know, rubbing shoulders with well, Barry Dancer and Rick Charlesworth, the two greatest coaches we've ever had, and then you're in a change room with Jamie Dwyer or Mark Knowles or Eddie Ockenden.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: The list literally goes on for just absolute superstars.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: And um yeah, we we were in a a really good part.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we our our our career sort of crossed over, right, Phil?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: You were just sort of well, maybe not just beginning, a couple of years of you, and then I was out of there, and you but I don't I don't think you'd burst onto the scene yet.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, but yeah, that was some good times.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: It was like just yesterday.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean I I managed to get I'd say I got lucky in some ways because like managed to play Australia when I'd say you were in up to your peak in 2014, and that like we played you in two practice games in uh in England just before the World Cup.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: I just got not got picked, and uh we played a couple of ding-dongs in in uh in Bisham Abbey where we actually managed to win and thought, oh my goodness, we might actually be on something here.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh you went to the World Cup and just trounced absolutely everybody.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I do remember specifically getting getting fairly beaten up that uh that them few games, it's like a youngster coming in being like, Shit, I get to play Australia just before the World Cup, and holy fuck, it was uh it was a baptism of fire.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was at Bisham Abbey, right?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I remember it well because yeah, it was like the casualty ward afterwards.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: I remember I'm pretty sure Tim Devin uh railroaded Ash Jackson and hurt his shoulder, and he wasn't quite right for the World Cup, which was awesome for us because we knew how good he was.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then for us, a lot of people probably don't know this, but two blokes were selected in the World Cup side, Russell Ford and Glenn Simpson, who actually had to withdraw after getting hurt.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh, one I think at Bishop Abbey, and then maybe one in a practice game against Germany.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: So they went out of the side, and Devon and Matt Godz came into the World Cup side.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you'd talk about the dominant tournament, but they're two of the hard luck stories that most people don't remember.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: That was well, I mean, also probably gives you credit for having such a strength in depth as well that you can get two guys with that.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: I remember God's holy shit, he was a player as well.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, like just to bring him in and be like, oh yeah, he can he can just fill in for us now.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, handy, right?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: And the best part was uh Tim Devin was my cards partner, and Matt Godez was Aaron Zalouski's cards partner.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: So we would play cards on every trip pretty much.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: So we could play 500, the four of us, for the for the entire World Cup out there in uh where were we?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: We're in The Hague, yeah, out on the beach somewhere, somewhere nice.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought I'd start off with like a a a bigger bigger picture question for you, because I think you're trying to you kind of do what we want to do, but I'd say like me and Brendan and sometimes you tend to sit on the fence quite a lot, you know.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're current players, we play against these guys a lot.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: You've managed to like find this really, well, in my opinion, nice blend where you're challenging challenging, criticizing players and speaking really openly.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, you're doing that to some of your ex-teammates, current players, you know what you you know what you're talking about.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how have you managed to do that and keep everything well?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you've kept everything like squeaky clean, but like how how is that going and like what what headspace you have to put yourself in to do that?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's a challenging one.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: I guess the the the common thing that everyone's trying to do in our sort of space, content space, is what's the point?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like let me ask you this.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: What are you guys trying to do?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: You and Phil and Brendan, obviously, when he was around.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: What are you yeah, what what's the purpose of Let's Stick Together?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's uh that's a great question.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think we'll we'll have a definite um answer on it.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_03: Uh for me, it's just I like I really I think it's really fun to do.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: That's like my main thing.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_03: I like to like joke around, have fun with it, and I don't take myself too serious, so I don't take others too serious as well.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_03: That's my kind of uh chick.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um that's what I want to do, but I also want to kinda there's like silent, I wouldn't say dream, but like there's uh ambition that you wanna really get somewhere with it and really try and and and uh grow the game of hockey a little bit more and create content and create more of a of a following uh for hockey.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_03: Uh um that's I think the main uh thing of it, but I don't know if Phil has a completely different uh ambition than than I have, because that's very possible to be honest.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's fairly similar.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've never actually spoke about this on the podcast.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: It started in 2020 when basically I rang Brendan and it was locked down and said, like, mate, I've got this idea.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Let's start a podcast.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: There's basically like no one who else who I knew who did it, and hockey's uh you know, like still a big audience, but you cut no one's even cracked it or begin to even scratch the surface of it, and it's a great way of getting more people interested in the game, and like I mean, the fun side of it is you get to put your own opinions out there and like talk about what you want, but the main thing is to get people, yeah.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: We're trying to grow the game, I reckon.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're do we I don't know if we're doing a good job, but oh, I think I think you're doing a great job.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Anyone who puts their well, sorry, I shouldn't say anyone, there's heaps of shit opinions in the world, but uh ultimately I'm trying to either inform, educate, or entertain.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's pretty much what I'm trying to do.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Pretty much any any content, whether it's hockey or my other uh my job in the outside world, yeah, educate, inform, or entertain.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: And the hard part is um you're right.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: How do you balance being constructive with being provocative?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's the difficult part, especially now.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like we hold back, myself and Adam Clifford, who does the show with me in Australia.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we have to hold back because one, we're employed by the league on one hand, uh, but secondly, Cliffo's a board member of the hockey one, so he's always got that caveat.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And on honestly, I reckon if you put a gun to his head and said, When we started this, what was your purpose?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: And he would have said, It my job is a handler for Orch to make sure that he doesn't go rogue and start saying stuff that we can't put out in the world.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: But the beauty is, boys, we've got a general manager and the one before him as well, who have pretty much said to us, Go for it.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: You can talk about the league, you can talk about decisions we make, you can talk about the players.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: And don't get me wrong, I reckon the last count there would have been maybe three CEOs out of seven in the competition over here who have complained or made comments about what we've talked about on the podcast.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that's not a badge of honour, you don't want people to feel that way, but I guess that's how you get a bit of cut-through, right?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Just trying to be a little bit different because anyone can get on here and talk about nice players and good games and great goals, but uh for whatever reason people have this sort of negative slant, don't you think?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Where they want to hear they want to hear uh real stuff, like you're talking around the at the pub, having a beer, or talking around the lounge room when you're watching a game, things that people say to one another.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, we always I always struggle, I shouldn't speak for Cliffo, I struggle sometimes with being really, really genuine and honest and balancing that with what's the best for the competition because we're the same.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: We want it to grow and expand, and it's probably at a real pinch point where it's not quite it's not quite there, and we've got so much competition down here that we're struggling to sort of stay afloat, I reckon.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: But at one point you were you were quite like with uh Voulez-vous Um Paris, the the Paris podcast, it that that was quite big, right?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: You were number two at one point in uh podcasting.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, we were number two in Australian sports stuff for a while, but yeah, those sort of things lean towards you know new podcasts, it favors new shows and things like that.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: So we weren't we weren't unaware that we were fluking it in a way, but the thing that kicked us off, we had this whole Rosie Malone debacle, really, where she missed out on the Olympics, uh, she put in a formal appeal.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: That hadn't, well, as far as we know, that hadn't ever happened, right?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: And this is an instant talking point around the Olympics.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think we just hit it, we just struck a match at the right time when there was just gas in the room and everyone wanted to know what was going on with hockey, and you know, people in Australia still call the men's team the hockey roos.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: I still get called a hockey roo, like that's how unaware Australian culture is for our hockey team.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, when we talk about it, we're trying to champion the players because we want them to have better lives and make more money and be able to do it full time, but we also want the casual to get involved because the rusted on hockey fans, they're gonna watch anyway or listen anyway.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: But we want Joe Blow who's walking down the street who's never heard of Tom Craig or Grace Young or whoever it might be to take interest, and it's not just us.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you've seen some of the stuff that uh videographers and photographers are doing here as well, right?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Capturing this great content.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, there's a few people trying.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, one thing we probably don't have that you guys, especially you, like when I was there, your best sports were football or soccer, ice skating, and maybe hockey, right?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Is that still sort of the hierarchy?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, tennis is kind of on the rise a bit as well, because we now have a good tennis player, but I think hockey is still the number two sport, team sport in Holland.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like soccer is uh on in the league on a uh in a league of its own.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: But hockey is still fucking big.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: Like we had a presentation yesterday about the World Cup in uh 2026, like this, like coming year, this season, and we're gonna make it like fucking huge again with uh with like a whole uh like the Wagner will be uh more than 10,000 people in it, uh, and there's already days sold out.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: Uh there's will be a big festival around it, there will be uh performers um and shit like that.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: So um yeah, it's still it's still quite big to be honest, and um the double Olympic gold uh kind of helped uh with that as well.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: He's gotta get it in.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: He's gotta get it in.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: You are raising a good point though, I think, when they have you know, we are we are also like really fighting for space in in the UK when we've got you know cricket, rugby, tennis, obviously football comes above all else.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to fight for your space, and I think you that is a really, really strong point that how do you how do you we I think our fight is actually how do you get the current people who just play hockey to listen or to watch games?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because uh apparently lots of people love playing hockey in the UK.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how it is everywhere else, but not many people like watching the game.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you just transition them guys and girls who are just going out every Saturday and playing and say, Hey, what about coming to watch like a game every so often?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that's maybe a little bit of a challenge for us.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you guys also uh what's the longest road trip in the England league?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because you played teams in there's a team in Wales, right?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: That a mate of mine um came over here and played for our local club team, actually.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Then he went back to Wales and he might have even joined Hulk.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Has he joined Hulkham now?
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Who's he who's he joined?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Nick.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um all I know him is his Welshy.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, you got a team in Wales, right?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: In your top league in England?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: So how far is that?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's two two and a bit hours, so from from London, two and a bit hours.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: We've also got Brooklyn's Manchester, which is like three and a half hours, and you've got it's it's yeah, and the girls have got Durham, which is about seven hours, so that's tough.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: Nick Morgan is done.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_03: We've got Blumendale's like an hour away, an hour fifteen.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's pretty far.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like to drive from where I live to Perth, where the high performance program is, it's called driving across the nullabore, and there's literally camels walking across the road as you drive through there, and it's about 40 hours.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: So the rigors of distance to have a competition, when you talk about Phil people that want to watch the game, that's why Hockey One is so difficult.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: We've got seven weeks where we're flying teams from side to side and we're still struggling for cut-through.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like the numbers are slowly increasing, but it's incremental growth.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas rugby league and AFL, that's the sport that you guys obviously don't have, Australian um rules football is just a behemoth and it's just getting bigger and bigger.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and unfortunately, all our not all of our, a lot of our best athletes, as in our pure athletes, go and join those sports because they're identified quickly at schools, they're plucked out in junior programs, and then hockey loses them.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: And and Charlesworth always used to say, well, back in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s, and even I guess through the back end of our era, these games weren't as prominent.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: And we got choice uh hockey got the choice of you know, someone like uh Jamie Dwyer, who could have played cricket at a high level, probably great hand eye, but he joined the hockey club instead.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, whereas now competition is just so difficult here, and it's just hard to get.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: We have no domestic league anything like you guys.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: People are always saying, Well, how does hockey one compare?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm saying, Well, it's chalk and cheese.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like the the Hoof class are or even the the the top tier British comp now.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, you're the envy.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: You're the envy of the world over there, Belgium, Germany, those sort of competitions that our guys are going to play in, right?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, I think to probably give you a little bit of love, like it it seems like you've created something that is is graining it, like as you say, it's incremental growth, but it growth, but it's even gaining like traction over here, you know, like the the content that's going out, the the clearly like clear franchises that have been made.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um would you say it's like working in c in in terms of like you didn't used to have it and you used to have Just like the Perth League and stuff like that.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Would you say that it's something that could be used by other nations?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Or would you say that like it's you know it's it's it's okay and whether or not it's actually increasing the quality of both Australia teams?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, is it increasing the quality of Australian teams?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: I would say, and again, not to be provocative, Australian hockey has never been worse.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Is that a fair comment on a national scale?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of pure rankings, if you look at where our teams are ranked and in terms of major tournament triumphs in the last, let's just say 15 to 20 years, the hockey ruse, I'd have to double check, maybe a silver uh in The Hague in the World Cup, but no Olympic medals since 2000.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: And the Cookaburras obviously medaled once in the last three Olympic cycles.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um before that, I don't think the Kookaburras had ever missed a medal.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, is hockey one contributing to positive growth in our national teams?
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the the proof certainly isn't there yet.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: You could argue COVID got in the way.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: The comp started, I think, the year before COVID, and then it got derailed for a couple of seasons.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: But now, I guess the problem we have, I keep banging on this drum.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: We start our season, and our six or seven or eight best men are playing in the German comp, right?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Tom Craig, um, Tim Howard Weir, Lockie Sharp, yeah, Govers, whoever, whoever it is, they're not here.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: So for our young kids who want to watch the best in the world, they're not around.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And instantly, Tom and those guys come back in, Tim Brand, and they just create and make magical things happen, and they're brilliant to watch, and the highlight reels go insane.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then we have uh the junior world cups coming up, so our junior players go out of our league as of this week, so they won't play finals.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: So we're sort of cutting ourselves off at the knees, and we've you know, this is not new stuff, we've been vocal about it, but where do we fit from a schedule point of view?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let me put this to you would you guys come and play?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: And if so, when would best suit international players in terms of a window, considering pro league, uh, hockey India League, domestic tournaments?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Can you play?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Is there an option for you to come and play?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_03: I I would I would 100% want to play because I've I've and it's not because you're here, but I fucking love Australia and I'm gonna uh I'm to play everyone in Australia.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: Because as long as an international player, and I think it goes for Dutch, uh, English, uh uh German, Basin, whatever.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: There's no space in the schedule to do it.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like we already we're already not allowed to go to the Hockey India League as a Dutch player uh this year, uh which from a financial standpoint would be more interesting than to go to Australia.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um but we don't we're not even allowed to go there.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like my winter now is uh going to Argentina in a week and a half, going to South Africa, going to uh Spain.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um I would say the winter, but again, there's no space to go.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: And in the summer, there's always like a World Cup, European Cup, or Olympics there.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_03: So they never allow you to go for seven weeks to Australia.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_03: So all you have to say, I don't go to uh I I skip a year and a half class and I go to um go to Australia.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like I think um forgot his name.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: There's a Dutch player playing now.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_03: Track flicker.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: Ah Smith.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but like he's nowhere close to uh to national team.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh uh and don't yeah, so to be honest, he's not a really good hockey player, he just flicks the ball really hard.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um but like there is no space in the in the schedule.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_03: So uh or or you have to go for like what like Mogovak have uh even for Goede, even the Goede, like they did, go after you're retired as a as a as a national team player, you go there, or you have to be so shit that you don't play uh for like national team or are really good in the hope cluster, and you go there, but that's not the players you're looking for.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is where though the like I I agree I'd love to come and play.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like it it just when we've all got like club contracts, I think that's where an all of European season is September to May.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: You you just can't really find the time, and I don't know when it would be.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: This is where the pro league actually is like a hindrance, isn't it?
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's like we've talked about this a lot, but like why they are insistent on this pro league when it hasn't really worked for so long now.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you could I'm a believer that basically you could play in different competitions, and a player trying to improve himself and trying to like gain insight and just getting better is is how you you you broaden your horizons by going to play in the Dutch League, the Australian League, taking all the best bits of where of the players you play with, the coaches you coach by, and therefore, like then it's gonna make you a better player.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_03: We're not so I I and I think I know where the problem is because no one, no one in in the hockey world, no one fuck all likes the the Pro League except for the like the Federations because they think they have like 16 games with exposure and uh like uh uh the Belgian Federation, for example.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: They fucking love the Pro League because it's 16 games, they have 16 times that all their sponsors come out and whatever, whatever, whatever.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: And they to be honest, they don't really give a shit about uh the Hofklasse, the Belgian league, let alone the hockey ones.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_03: So I think they just think uh I think they're gonna sign a new contract till 2040 if they want to for the pro league.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: And no hockey player, I think no national team player likes to play the pro league.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like you guys don't even take it seriously.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're trying to win the thing for some reason.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: I I guess because we're funneling millions of dollars into sending our teams over there, but we don't have any opportunity to make our guys good, whereas Holland, Germany, I think England try because they don't win anything.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the other Europeans are just practicing, and we're trying to send uh you know our best players to actually play some games, otherwise, they're just playing against people like me in the club comps here in Australia.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: No, we do like we we go out there and and try and win it uh and and succeed it because we won it three times in the last four years.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um but uh uh it's just not a it's not a it's every team also uses it as like the use to give players experience.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone kind of uses it, they want to win it, and towards the end of this when they feel they're in it to win it, they're going all in.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: But we also use it to develop players, give players a chance, and and uh more important, keep everyone uh uh fit.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_03: Because to be honest, too.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: Uh if you tell a football player or or uh or soccer player that you have to play four games in five days in Argentina with a jet lag of uh of uh of four and a half, five hours, they look at you like you're a fucking idiot, and we do it, and we we think it's very normal.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: We all yeah, yeah.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's also like that thing of like it feels like a bit you you already touched on this in a previous episode, like you have to earn a cap, like it's really important, like you have to earn a cap.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: And now it's like the C16 games, and there's points in that where like no one can play all of them because it's such a condensed period, and therefore you've just got like we've got a squad of 30, and you'll find you know, there's times where you're just getting rested, and it just never used to be the case.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: You used to have to get picked for stuff, you used to have to fucking work your tits off and get picked, and now it's like oh we've got this pro league thing, it's it's it hasn't even got any weight behind it.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you there's three Dutch guys who came out to celebrate, winning it last year.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's the was that last year, you, or the year before?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it doesn't mean nothing.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how how do you create something that that we need something like bringing the champions trophy back?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: We've already talked about it.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: But uh what what's your take, Simon, quickly before we go to a break on that?
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's uh it's an immense waste of money, drain on resources, and doesn't showcase our sport in the best light.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're right, there's a broadcast element to it.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: They want a competition that people can follow uh religiously over three or four months.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: But unfortunately, the the trip that um the distance between us and everyone is makes it almost impossible.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: And New Zealand, they're the leaders, they bailed.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if I was CEO of Hockey Australia, we would do the same and we would just funnel that money into doing other trips elsewhere, yeah.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and yeah, we probably need to come up with some solutions for them.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: But like this is you know where podcasting's fun, where you can just uh kind of put stuff out there and then just just leave it there.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: We would love to clip that stuff up as well, uh Simon.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: But we're we're we're not like you say, we don't have an editor, so if you know one, you can let us know and they can do all of our Instagrams and stuff.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're gonna we're gonna come back after the break and talk a little bit more.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe some we'll go into the coop with you, and we'll talk some more general stuff.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: See you in a sec, we're back.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh part two.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's been pretty serious so far.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm saying this is Will from the In Between Us.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, it's been uh it's it's been good.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna we're gonna head into the coop with Youpe in a bit, but we'll just we'll fire a few more questions your way, Orch, and see how we go.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um you you put out a funny Instagram recently um about uh you did a funny, like uh I don't know how you film it, but you you've got two versions of yourself talking to each other right overheads.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it made me think to ask you what rules would you like changed about hockey?
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: I know that they've started doing a conversion in the hockey one league, it means you take a shootout after you score a field goal.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is there anything that you think you would would like to improve the game?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked a little bit about deep zones and and shit, but like what what would you like to see in hockey to make it more easy to watch?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny you mentioned that Instagram.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh a few people have messaged me privately and said, You guys are doing a great job.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: As in, they think there's actually two people talking to one another, and it's just me talking back and forth to myself, like legitimately, old people.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: This is what happens when mums and dads and uncles and aunties start getting on social media.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, yeah, look, the overhead rules just a it's a strange phenomenon at the moment that it needs to be cleaned up.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's pretty easy, but Barry Dancer put this paper out right recently.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know if it's public, but he just joined the FIH rules committee, which is a good thing.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: So Barry Dancer, former Cookabara's coach, uh and he had a whole list, a caveat of things that he would change.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I agree with most of them.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: We had a discussion about six months ago about the initial thought process that he put together.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, he went back and watched the rest of the pro league, and he basically said uh change the number of players, ten or nine, which I agree with.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he said go back to halves, get rid of quarters, which makes it a battle of attrition.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: The better team can normally win.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: He said he thinks you should put uh in net we have netball here in Australia, which I don't know if you guys feel obviously you do, but you do you play netball in Holland?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: No, but you have a bib, right?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: With a position on it.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: You could be a top netball player, by the way.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: You'd be a perfect netball player.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: Long it's skinny.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_03: I've I've I've seen it, but it looks it looks really shit that you can't really tackle or like that.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's uh is it like all the all the all the other idiots play it, all the nerds in the country?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_03: They when you're not good at anything, you play netball.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's like uh less rough version of basketball, basically, for mostly women, but men play as well.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, tall, slender, uh light frames, you'd be you'd be sweet.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, but they wear bibs, right, with positions.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: Part of Barry's idea was do you just have a striker who sits has to sit in the attacking half only, um, and a defender who has to sit in the defensive half, you know, to stop the the low zone or the deep zone, whatever you guys are calling it.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't mind that.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: We we flirted with that in AHL a few years ago, just having a player that had to sit high uh for the majority of the game.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he doesn't like short corners.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: I totally agree.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think you need to get rid of them and and make the game more interesting.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: The one thing we've changed, yeah, you mentioned it, the conversion, uh which in its essence seems like an okay idea.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: We're not very good at them in Australia.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of the top players will say we need to practice, but you've got to remember we've got seven teams of say 20 players each, maybe 250, 300 players in total.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: 60 of them play for Australia, 30 or 40 are junior Australian players, and the rest are just average club battlers.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: So if someone scores, they have to step up and take a shootout, and they've never done this in their life.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: So what's the point, right?
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: The tweak I would make is you let that to me sounds fucking great.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, you just let some battler trundle their way in and just see what happens.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_03: That's also our theory.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_03: The less the less quality, the higher the the uh uh the entertainment, the watchability.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_03: I'd rather want someone who's very shit at a shootout try than someone who turns their bum in and and scores.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's true.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: That is true.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Air swings.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I remember, yeah, I kicked a ball once just walking to the top of the circle at Lee Valley in front of a full house, and they laughed and laughed and laughed.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but yeah, it um I don't know.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: I want to see I want to see like Duco Telgenkamp up against Jed Snowden five times a game, if possible, in that situation.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: You build the duel or the rivalry in the game.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's what I think Hockey One needs.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, instead of Joe Blow from the back of Burke walking in against a goalkeeper that doesn't even know this person's name and they're trying to score.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't excite me.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, but yeah, Barry Dance's paper.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'll see if I can get it and put it out there because he's got a bunch of different things that he just thinks would make the game more interesting.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: But fundamentally, just take a few players off the field.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Why would that not open things up and make it more exhilarating, more exciting?
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_03: So I I disagree with the point of taking a player off or taking players off because I think it will just enforce players or like teams to play an even lower zone, and it will be like uh a handball.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I don't know if you can play that in Australia, actually.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um it will be like a handball defense all around the circle, trying to create numbers in your own D, uh, and it will just be uh like only um defense versus uh uh attack, and then the other team gets a try, and it's like yeah, it's like uh uh or even like basketball, there's no real uh uh high press anymore, there's no real counter-attacking anymore, it will just be like a lot of players in their own D.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I think will happen.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: But to jump on jump on Orch's point, if you've got a goal attack as well in a bib at the top, and then you've only got like nine players on the pitch, you can't really do that, can you?
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like you haven't got enough players to kind of create a deep zone.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because I've been trying to we've been trying to work all this out.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: I actually wish I could disagree with loads of what you just said, but I actually agree with everything basically.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: You just like we're trying to get back to hockey being like less about sports science, less about like who can run better and who less tactical, who can break down a defense.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: You want to see more like fluid transition play, and like how do you go about doing that?
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'd also love to get rid of corners because corners are also shit.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked about that a lot, but yeah, does I wouldn't all three of us well you're a coach, Orch.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, would you try the deep zone if you if you had like eight players around the D?
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, put put this context out there.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, say Tom Craig is sitting as the striker in the other half of the field, right?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, by himself, the fastest man on the planet.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: How are you going to try and defend him?
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: I guess instantly for a team who's got the ball.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: So instantly it just makes you start thinking and worry because, yeah, if you do play the deep zone, you can scoop it straight out to him and it's he's one-on-one with the goalkeeper every time.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: I just think it makes you question the way you need to play.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: The deep zone at the moment is frustrating just because it creates less chances, but also it takes away fundamentally from the best players.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: Let's be honest.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: The best players are your central mid and your two attacking midfielders or your inside forwards or whatever you want to call them.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: They're the best guys.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: No offense to our left and right half brothers and sisters, but they're just the extras, right?
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: Unless you've got a uh the Belgian guy, Stockbrooks, remember Stockbrook, remember him, right half, who was basically a midfielder playing as a right half who just ran up and down and just blitzed people all the time.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's exciting hockey.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas now, due to the zone, you're putting fundamentally more power in the hands of your defenders, uh, your left and right back.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when you see people like you, who are creative, take the game on and make it exciting.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: Vendoran used to crack a toma from left fullback to right wing.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: That sort of stuff doesn't happen as much anymore.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, Barry also had a limited interchange concept, which I really like as well.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: That happened in Australian rules football here.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: People were just running players on and off, and it became very robotic, very mechanic, very sports science driven, unlimited interchange.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then the AFL said, you know what, you're not gonna have unlimited, you're gonna have a capped amount, and then fatigue obviously brought in more open play, it also brought in skill error, but it meant that teams fundamentally were more tired, which opened up the game a lot more.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, subs.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think for anyone who doesn't know what interchange means.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you need to you need to enforce, I think that's you can take out the quarters and you can take out the subs because you need to enforce that that teams get fucked, because that's when the good shit happens.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_03: I also I'm a like if if uh if uh if if if there's a draw, I wouldn't go straight to shootouts, I would just like then I would like to take off players and keep playing, if that makes sense.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_03: So that you uh uh play another uh seven and a half minutes or five minutes with uh uh 8v8, and then if it's a draw again, you go to 6v6 on a full-length pitch, like go really rogue and uh with a golden goal, for instance.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like we watched uh yesterday we watched the 98 uh Olympic or a World Cup final in uh Utrecht as like an inspiration thing, and it was so much more fun to look at than the than the game we play now.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_03: They were just not there, no one uh uh slapped, everyone's just hitting balls constantly.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone who got a ball just started running with the ball.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, there was no midfield, it was just uh five defenders versus five attackers on both sides.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_03: That that's I think that's what we want to watch, and not it's the same with soccer, with football.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's fucking shit to watch at the moment.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_03: You own it's a game, it's 90 minutes.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_03: You watch 40 minutes of guys laying on the ground crying because they got hit, and out of 50 minutes they're just passing around, and nothing really happens.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_03: You want to go back to like where it's where it's rogue and where people just run around.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this is this is the big picture stuff, though, isn't it?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: This is like hockey isn't isn't growing and it and it needs uh it needs a bit of a radical change.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what could it sound very pretty promising that this buried answer is going into uh to the FIH rules committee because someone's got to shake things up and why don't we just try it?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why couldn't it be tried?
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: If it I mean you tried that years ago in the um in in 2012, I'm sure you're around Orch where you play with bigger goals and like nine aside on a full pitch.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um and yeah, and it's just like why can't stuff be a be tried?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it doesn't have to be at a huge cost, it just has to see if we can improve the game.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, as as someone that was quick and had pretty good basics, that was my dream.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: 9v9 goals were like a meter wider each side, goalkeepers had no chance, high scoring games, and this is the Charlesworth thing again.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um but that was it was ahead of its time.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think honestly, honestly, guys, I reckon hockey has no future in the Olympic Games unless we start limiting how many people are on the field, or we come up with a hybrid version of indoor and outdoor hockey.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people scoff, a lot of people scoff, like you, P, and start saying, Oh, we we cannot fucking touch our beautiful game.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not that's not that's not forward thinking.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: The the Olympics is built on how much money does it cost to win a medal, and how much money does it cost to accommodate a sport.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: Hockey is a s is a stupidly expensive sport to put how many players in the village and look after them for two weeks for what two gold medals, two silvers and two bronze, whereas swimmers can win 10 medals by themselves almost.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: So hockey needs to it's not 5v5 that game with the boards.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that's the future.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: But if you look at an indoor hockey game in Europe, and you guys would know better than me, but particularly in Germany, it's a brilliant atmosphere.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like the rules, I think there needs to be some tweaking about lifting the ball and making it um well more dangerous but more exciting.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: But that's the future, in my opinion.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I agree, I agree with that part, and I feel like um there's something has to change.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: The only thing is with like, for instance, I think you also need more um like I wouldn't say yeah, heroes, if that makes sense.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's now not a real like you had to turn the noy, you had the Jamie Dwyer, uh the Jackson, and there's no real in modern day hockey, I don't think there's someone who really really stands out or is like recognizable for people who don't watch hockey.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_03: So let's say in rugby there's this uh there's this uh England guy, and I have no clue what his name is, but I know don't watch rugby and I kind of know him.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: And you need someone who like breaks that barrier a little bit.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I do think with us now, if you get rid of the penalty corner, and I also have The penalty corner to be honest because I think it's it's it's not a not a nice part of the game, but they're the only guys right now that kind of everyone knows.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: So let's let's Henry Pollock by any chance, yeah.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_03: I think so.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: He's he's also kind of controversial, right?
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that he has big mouth, he's a bit of a bit of a knob, but like he like you need someone like that, and like this is also this is also where we've talked, and it and it needs to happen, is basically like sport is built on uh like telling stories, it's like storytelling and personalities, and like why is American sport so huge?
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: Why is like basketball so huge?
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: Why is uh uh NFL so huge?
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because they build stories around the best players and they give them best players the chance every single game to shine.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: And in hockey, we seem like we're absolutely adamant about like fairness, and there's 11 people, but no one's the hero, and it's like, well, that's not actually gonna grow our game.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: How could I mean maybe your point which is pretty good, like even even tiny things like a designated you know, conversion guy, and you see that stuff where Tongel Camp is taking seven shootouts a game and scores five goals.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: How do we create more of that?
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you build these narratives where that actually you know that happens?
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I want to see that guy who I don't know at all, apart from maybe the greatest slash most infamous celebration in Olympic history, right, where he gets in Dannenberg's face or whatever it was.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: I want to see more of him doing that.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: I want to see more of his brilliance.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: I want to see him with space and time in the circle scoring great goals.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I want to see.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: So when you talk about low zone, geez, so frustrating to watch people like him who are exceptional talents, and someone like Jamie Dwyer, right?
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: Arguably the best ever, or Turn Dennoyer, like how would Turn have played against a low zone?
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: His whole skill set was like running fast and getting the ball five times up the field.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you'd stifle the brilliance of these guys.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, shifting people off the field not only makes it more economically viable, I think it makes it more exciting and you get more champion moments.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: And your point, Yupe, is is correct.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: The hard part is, right, you guys are still in it.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm out of it for nearly 10 years, but I'm still close enough that if I start saying, Well, you know, our generation, it's that old adage of oh, old bitter guy.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, our our team, our squads, and our era was better than yours, but you're right.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: Growing up, for me, there was all these names from every country Firster, Hauka, Weisenborn, uh, Holland, even Takama, even though he's just a flicker, but Denoia, Del May, uh Vane, England, not many people, but you know, but you know what I mean.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: You can't set yourself up like that.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's not, you know, guess someone else's tea or not.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yes, you can.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_04: That's exactly how you do it.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_04: You set yourself up and you finish it off.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, Jackson came along, and this guy's a wonder kid.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I still remember seeing him for the first time thinking, fuck, like I hope these guys don't get more of these do this two because they're gonna be a problem.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: But that's what you need.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: And sadly, I just don't know if there's that if that exists anymore.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: But you guys would know better.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: But you also, yeah, yeah, also with the limited subs, just to add on it as well.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you've got limited subs, you know, you don't want to go to watch a hockey game and see your favourite player sitting out for 25 minutes of that game on top of quarters and halves because they're knackered, because all we want to do is run them ragged.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: You want to see them play 50 minutes in the in the middle of the pitch, trying to run the show, like and against the best player from the other team as well, right?
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: Going head to head, the rivalry of two stars just fucking smashing into each other for 70 minutes.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's what people want to see.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_03: Garnethan You no, I'm just I'm just I'm just thinking, as in like who is there is like no, like I think for instance, if you get like a Florence Middendorp, who is like his one thing is that he is really good at eliminating 1v1s.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how can you that's what people want to see?
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like, if our uh our social media channels all they do now is like post that kind of shit, and I think that's what you need to like.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_03: How do you enforce that?
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_03: Is if you get even like he faces someone who's hit see just he played four minutes in a row, he had to go for overcome like when you get the magic, it goes before the end of game.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it's playing with a player less.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm I'm kind of getting more on your um not that it wasn't on the side, but I I I I I know where you're going.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_03: I just my only fear is that every team, the less players you get, every team will start to play even lower and lower and lower just because they want it they don't want to make the field as big.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_03: That's like the the the realistic or the practical side of things that I think coaches will think, oh, we're just gonna make the pitch really small, and it kind of um inverts what you want.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_03: I just think and I fucking hate low block because I've it's it's it's I also I also think do you want to play in a team that plays a low block?
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like that there's no fun in in playing a low zone, and fucking Germans right now they're fucking good at it, and I fucking hate it, to be honest.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_03: I think Australia at one point also wanted to do a low zone.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_03: But they kind of maybe they should have.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you can't do that.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's part of the game that that's definitely improved, right?
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: That part of the game has changed a lot.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: I reckon when you're saying maybe there's no stars at the moment, but the technical, technical side of it and ability to morph in and out of different looks, I think is far exceeded what any other previous iteration of hockey has been like.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: 100%, yeah.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, 100%.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: You've also got a horse in this race because you know, now fullbacks are the most important people in the game, and they have been for like eight years.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they get the ball all the time.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: If we're talking about changing the game where midfielders get the ball and forwards become the heroes again, it's no good for him.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_03: So we got like the whole reason I started to become a defender is so I don't have to run to get the ball anymore, it just starts with me, and I can dictate a bit where the ball is going instead of having to run a shitload.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_03: Like the strikers right now, I feel I I envy them like strikers right now, just are in the field running a press for 39 minutes, and the three minutes they actually are they get like a bouncy ball on their back, and some of some of our players get seven touches a game.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_04: Like, why do you even bother getting on the field?
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_04: Like, for me, that's like five minutes.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_03: Well, maybe with these new rules, they might get ten touches a game, but yeah, do do it in two and a half years when I've quit uh national team and I'm in Australia playing on hockey once.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: You perm have you got a coupe this week?
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_03: If you say what what does Australia the Cabrons, what they need in like if one player from another country if you coach and you could like transfer, you could buy one player of one other country to make them successful, to make them win uh a World Cup.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_03: What what do you think is lacking right now?
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: One player from one country to join Australia, that's the question.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean uh I've mentioned him already.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think Telgen Camp, am I saying that right?
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: Telgen Camp?
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_03: Not like Phil, it's not Tomorrow Camp, it's Telgen Camp.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: Telgenham.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think he he's an absolute superstar.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like not just the way not just the way he plays, his personality, he's he's a I don't know if you swear on this show, he's a he's what we call a right.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: He's a he's a really hard-nosed, tenacious dog of a guy who I love.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: I love everything about him.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know, I heard he does kickboxing or fighting or some workout stuff like that as well.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: He's got a real mongrel in him.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately, watching from the outside, I think Australia has lost a bit of that tenacious attitude.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we've got some really nice players and we've got some really skillful players, but I don't think we have that attack dog.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: We've got Nathan Ephraims, right, who plays at the front.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_00: He's really smooth and silky, and he can find space where no one else can and he can score goals.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: He's probably our best striker at the moment with Tim Brand, who's who's very similar, but we don't have that that guy that's gonna that's gonna hit a goal and then rub your face in it at the same time.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and we need that.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_03: Is that not Cooper Cooper Burns?
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_03: Is that not like a guy who's yeah?
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: Nah, nah, nah, nah.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: He's uh he's a good player, but I'm talking like junkyard dog style, a guy who wants to rip your head off, or could rip your head off if he wanted to.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't know.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: We like Australia was always built on physicality, tenaciousness, and then everyone sort of caught up a little bit, but we still always had that I don't know, mental physical warfare mentality.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's all that's how I try tried to play, or how I liked our teams to play.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: Not everyone has that, but Telgan Camp, I might be totally wrong about the guy, but he looks like he's an animal.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: But you're right.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think Australia's Australia have done a good job of playing like that for a while.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we got nice we got nice guys.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's not a bad thing, but I think a lot of our team are nice, nice kick, nice kids, nice dudes.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like Blake Govers is just a nice dude.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: He's not a killer.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he might he might hit the ball really hard, but he's not a guy that's gonna you know push you over, sticky stick in your ribs, sledge you all game, get in your head.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Telgenkamp just looks like he's got that edge.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he won when we played pro league in India, he scored a goal against uh Australia, and he kind of bent it, like he kind of uh came in front of Jeremy Hayward, and after he scored, he gave Hayward like two taps on the back, as in like good luck.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_03: Like, yeah, he's he's a he's an idiot, but he's our idiot.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_03: And we we we we kind of embraced and loved him.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_03: We yeah.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_03: I think that the the the slap on Dunnenberg's uh uh helmet says says enough.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_03: That's like but he he he is a good guy, but he also he goes in training as well.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_03: He doesn't give a shit who's in front of him, he just hits it, and that's it's kind of nice to have in your team.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: They're the guys you want on your team, right?
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: You want 100%.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: Other teams will think he's an asshole or he's a prick or he's not friendly or whatever, but maybe off the field he's great.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't know, but on the field, who who cares what people think on the field.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is interesting you've said that because that's something that the Aussies have always maybe that maybe like since I I'm just thinking now since you've said it, like since maybe I'm thinking like 2022, it's been maybe like declining a little bit in what you said, like you know when I've been I've been very vocal about playing Australians, but you know how what you get when you play them, and it's the it's the it's the little little cheap shots against you, little digs, little like get stuck into you when you fuck up.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's definitely, yeah, I would say it's probably reflecting now, it's definitely got nicer in the last three years than it's ever been or that I ever experienced anyway, because you know you just you normally just get you fuck up and some Aussie's in your face being like fucking yeah, right, and then you're like, Yeah, brilliant, thanks, man.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: And the next time you go, they just give you a shoulder in the ribs, and you're like, Yeah, cool, good to see you.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_01: But that's always been a huge that has been a huge edge in how you play sport, isn't it?
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like you just have to watch a bit of Aussie rules to realise that.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, all Australian teams haven't been the most technically gifted, definitely not the most tactically gifted a lot of the time, as well.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: But uh and it's changed a bit now because the Dutch are actually quite good, but there was a moment there where, oh man, nothing better than running into those pretty boy prima donna, want to play fancy hockey, and it just like honestly, it it made our blood rush, like coming up against those sides.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: The Germans were the guys we didn't like because they were the robots who just didn't fuck up and they didn't listen and they didn't seem to care.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas the Dutch, the English, it was almost like all right, we we honestly we think we've gotcha before we even go out there at our peak.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that's still how they feel, but that's um that mental warfare, it's not for everyone.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_03: No, yeah.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, sorry, you wanted to go, Philip?
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, I was gonna say it's like uh it's definitely a cultural thing.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think English we would we would definitely class ourselves as like wanting to do things the right way, which a hundred percent holds us back 99% of the time.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to like I think that's something that's been worked on without any success yet, obviously, in the hockey world, but like you have to find the dark arts, you have to find the ways to win these games, and it doesn't have to be pretty.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that used to be the case with the Australians where you just be like, Why are they such wankers all the time?
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: But it obviously just works, like it's just it's just an edge that you just had, and you you I think that's the thing that the Dutch have obviously done really well in the last few years, where they've kind of like developed this defensive grind, which they never had before.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: Fair, yeah.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's I think all credit to uh to to Delmay because he he changed because he when he uh became our head coach, he uh in the media called us uh soft and uh in in different words uh a bunch of bitches, uh, which he wasn't which he was kind of uh was kind of true.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but I like as you said, I think before like I made my debut in 2015, and back then it was when you played Australia, because I played Australia uh in my first tournament, and it was oh shit, here they are, and they were and uh I'm I'm still very scrony, but imagine this 10 years ago, uh and I played against uh Glenn Turner uh in a game, and I think uh Michael was his uh his uh not in his bicep, his low arm.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_03: So um yeah, good luck.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I'm not seeing that, but we kind of grew a bit more into the like we kind of own a bit more like that.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_03: We want to be a bit tougher.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but when we played uh Australia in the quarterfinals in Paris, like to be honest, it was the first time I think I played Australia where I wasn't like uh where I thought we had a number on them instead of that Australia said a number on us.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like I think Australia was always a bit our kryptonite.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_03: Uh uh uh in the past that we were like Australia, yeah, they played a rough the run and gun rough game.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it's not just Australia that has a number on England.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_03: I think right now, and there's not there's not a lot of teams that don't have your number, to be honest.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I feel like you you kind of you kind of touch the ceiling, but you never really punched through it.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_03: Uh is that fair?
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it felt it felt it felt um that felt uncalled for, unwarranted, just that just that last part passing comment, just to pass it back to me.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but I I do want to continue with with one more question that's to you, Philip.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_03: Is uh because you always uh talk very uh uh highly of Australians and about uh uh playing Australia and uh now that we actually have an Australian player and you you you played against like what is your like how do you view how do you what what's your opinion now?
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_03: Did have have you grown fond of them a bit more?
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_03: Are you still uh on the fence about it?
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_03: I already said this, like your words?
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: I already said this post-hockey India League where it kind of like ruined your feelings towards like my feelings towards Belgians and Australians.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: I already spoke about this.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like I roomed with Jez Haywood for six weeks, and you were just like after day one, I was like, fuck, he's a really nice guy.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_01: Fuck, that's really annoying.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and then like playing with uh Victor Venier and uh Vinny Van Ash and uh Ponsley and stuff, and you just like oh they're all really fucking nice, and it does definitely change how you how you think.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's just that thing of the realization post, probably like three years ago, where you just realised that's how Aussies are, and that's how you grow grew up playing, and that's how you grow and play the game.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_01: And once you realise that it's much easier, it's much harder for them to get in you.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I found I had greater success when you realise they can't get in your head if you already know what's coming.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because uh Okenden must have got me, I reckon, like 10 times in my career, where I'm like backing up running backwards, and he's just shouldered me in the back.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_01: He must have got me like 10 times, and it's like a fair play to him.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't really nibble very often, but like uh I got him once at the Commonwealth Games, and I was so fucking happy with myself that he's running back, and you just give him a dig, and he just looks and you he's just like, Yeah, that's fine, all good, let's crack on.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_01: But it's uh it's it's definitely more of a shift and something that Revs, our old coach, tried to drill into us.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, we almost punched through the ceiling, but uh but like how to how to play a bit differently and deal with that deal with that shit.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's no better example for the English mentality than the ashes, right?
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's about to start the cricket this week, uh, and the whole moral victory thing.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's like Australia has dined out on this for years, where uh Alex Carey threw down the stumps.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: Remember when Bearstow walked out of his crease a few years ago, and accidentally we threw the ball and it knocks the bales off and he gets out.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_00: You're thinking, what the fuck are these guys talking about?
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_00: This is this cricket chap.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_00: But effectively, the English, by the letter of the law, got out fairly and squarely, but they were claiming the moral victory, and the Aussies took the actual victory, and we we've lived on for that for the last few years.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: Now, our cricketers, in terms of cool sports people, they're probably among the most lamest we have, but it still speaks to the English mentality of well, we got the moral victory, but we didn't win any medals, and we didn't win many games, and uh that was often mentioned when we would play England.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_00: There was lots of talk about well, you you've got you guys have no class.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well we didn't care, right?
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_00: We had the gold medal and we go back to Australia all happy and celebrate, and yeah, I think most most people around the world are really good.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_00: The India League probably broke the ceiling for a lot of teams in terms of diminishing this veil of you know secrecy or or even just an imposing nature of people.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of a lot of the Indians in particular grew um through the Hockey India League and didn't become wary of anyone, and that's why I think India have improved and won medals at the last two Olympics, right?
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_00: In the men's, I think, bronze and bronze, purely because Hockey India League lowered those borders and made them think these guys aren't scary, they're just good friendly guys.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_03: What is a what the fuck is a moral victory?
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: To be honest with you, that was that was uh I think that's a bit of a maybe a rhetoric from the Aussies.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like I no one in England was celebrating a victory, even a moral one.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_01: It was more I will defend us on that one.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_01: That was uh that didn't really happen, but I understand your point.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_04: Um does sound very, very English to be honest.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's very English, isn't it?
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know, may not have watched the game, but we're morally very high.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's a top accent, you um we are getting towards the end now.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um is you is there any last uh last questions for Orch in the coop, or are we we happy?
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_03: I was I was curious about how it's trying to because then like you said, not only geographically, but like you are pretty pretty distant to the rest of the world.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like how do you but you kind of already answer this?
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how do you look like the English team?
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_03: How do you look at the dust team or germs?
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what is your for us Australians?
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_03: We're always like the the team, the the the the the the the the strong guys uh who don't give a shit, who who try to rally you, want to get into your head, uh but uh are technically quite shit.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um and like what is your how do you view like the Dutch like the English?
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_03: For us we play Entist, yeah, they run a lot, they run stupid meters.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_03: That's what we say about England.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_03: So you just have to follow them, and it's gonna be a run and gun game.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh if we play and that's what we but then curious how you view other countries.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mentioned the Germans before, you know, that methodical brilliance.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_00: We always I think maybe the Dutch coined the phrase, you don't beat the Germans until they're on the bus on the way home, right?
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um for us, yeah, they're just they're immense, immensely skilled basics, great structure, and they've lost a bit of their aura, but they just seem to reproduce talent after talent after talent.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the Germans for us were always the pinnacle.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_00: The Dutch were always the most skilled, the the best talents, the people that could fill the highlight reel with all sorts of different um different skills and abilities, and naturally the most beautiful teams to watch, and still are.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_00: You grow up, you know, I lived there and played there.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_00: So many kids learning the game from a young age, whereas our kids are doing all sorts of other things.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it's no surprise.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, the Dutch have certainly built an aura in the last few years.
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_00: The English, it's funny, right?
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_00: I reckon if I watched one like if I saw a team of players and I didn't know where they were from, I could tell if they were English from the way that they're running around.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's a I still think it's quite a stilted game that the English play.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_00: Is that is that fair?
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_00: Stilted as in um yeah, no flair, not a lot of flair, very uh basic, um not poor hockey, but just the English, I think, just lack creativity and lack uh brilliance.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_00: But maybe that's harsh.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think it wouldn't have been harsh.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it would have been harsh like five or six years ago.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think you could have said that.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think the the players we've got now probably pushing through, we have some of the I would argue the most creative players in our in our in in in in world hockey, some of them.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um but uh yet to show it on the on the world stage, so I can't I can't argue yet, but I would I would uh I would I would be intrigued to see how that how that pans out for us.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um maybe more methodical than than yeah.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's been running gun for a good few years now, but I also understand the methodical from from past years.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I think it's it's it's not unfair, it's not fair.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'll meet somewhere in the middle with you, Orch.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um we are gonna have to wrap that up.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um thank you so much for uh for joining us, Orch.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's been it's been big picture stuff.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_01: We've we've solved a lot of hockey's problems in the last hour.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much for joining.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's been great.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it, Phyllis.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_01: And um we'd love, yeah, we'd love to have you back.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_01: Good luck with uh good luck with everything out in us.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_01: And um, it's been let's stick together episode three.