Latest / Drowned in Sound / How Music Fans Can Save The Planet - Tori Tsui on Billie Eilish, Brian Eno & Fossil Fuel Treaty

Transcript

How Music Fans Can Save The Planet - Tori Tsui on Billie Eilish, Brian Eno & Fossil Fuel Treaty · Drowned in Sound

0:00
Sean Adams: Can music save
0:01
the planet?
0:02
I realize that's quite a grand big
0:05
opening question for a YouTube video
0:07
and a podcast, but I think there's a very
0:11
good chance it can.
0:12
In fact, a study from Glasgow
0:13
University found that 82% of music
0:15
fans want to prevent climate breakdown.
0:18
That's 10% more than general population.
0:20
I don't really know what that says
0:21
about people that are not necessarily
0:22
self-defined as music fans and why
0:25
they don't wanna save the planet,
0:26
but that's a question that we're
0:27
not gonna answer in this episode.
0:29
Of that 82%, only 3% really knew what
0:32
they could do as music fans to stop
0:35
everything going wrong and life on
0:37
earth ending and.
0:39
That is quite a shocking stat
0:41
that there's all these different
0:42
initiatives in the industry.
0:43
There's some really amazing projects.
0:45
There's things like Overheated that
0:47
Billie Eilish runs, which is climate
0:48
conference and all the things that she
0:50
does at her shows.
0:51
There is Earth Percent, which Brian
0:52
Eno does, where artists pledge a percent
0:54
of their money into climate initiatives,
0:57
various different companies, projects.
1:00
Charities, organizations that
1:02
I've met over the years have been
1:03
doing amazing things, and one of
1:05
the driving forces behind the amazing
1:07
things they're doing is the climate
1:08
activist Tori Tsui.
1:10
She wrote this fantastic book,
1:12
it's not just you, and in this podcast
1:15
I got to sit down with her, pick her
1:17
expert brain to talk about what.
1:20
We can do as music fans, what we
1:22
can do as humans, really, and some
1:25
of the complexities of complicities of
1:28
the music industry, some of the things
1:30
that she's done with the artists
1:32
and activists that she works with and.
1:35
Well, I'll let her introduce herself.
1:37
This is Tori on stage before massive
1:40
attack performed to the Co-op Live arena
1:42
in Manchester.
1:44
Tori Tsui: Good evening, Manchester.
1:46
How are you feeling?
1:51
My name is Tory Tsui and I am a
1:53
climate justice activist and it is
1:55
such a privilege to be here with
1:58
you all tonight.
2:03
Today is World Environment Day
2:06
and Massive Attack.
2:07
Have endorsed the call for a fossil
2:10
fuel treaty, a global framework
2:13
to phase out from coal, oil, and gas.
2:21
Fossil fuels are weapons of mass
2:24
destruction, fueling climate breakdown.
2:28
And also the genocide of
2:31
Palestinians in Gaza.
2:36
Right now, my friend and fellow comrade,
2:39
Greta Thunberg, is sailing to
2:42
break the siege in Gaza, alongside 11
2:46
other activists.
2:49
It's so important
2:53
our to ensure their safety.
3:00
But the fossil fuel industry does not
3:03
act in isolation.
3:05
It is being bankrolled by
3:08
big financial corporations.
3:12
Recently the co-op live arena announced
3:15
a partnership with Barclays, which is
3:18
one of the leading perpetrator of the
3:21
climate crisis.
3:24
Barclays is providing financial
3:26
investments to the fossil fuel
3:28
industry and the arms trade, which
3:31
is slaughtering innocent
3:33
Palestinians.
3:35
It is time that we took a stand
3:38
against these profit-driven industries.
3:40
It is time that we fight to protect
3:43
what we love, our planet, our
3:45
people, and our homes depend on it.
3:52
Fossil fuel treaty provides a
3:55
pathway forward.
3:56
And so I'm asking each and every
3:59
single one of you to join us
4:01
in this fight.
4:03
Every person who has a voice and
4:06
a conscience, we demand an end to
4:09
big profiteering industries.
4:11
We demand an end to the banks
4:13
that fund them.
4:14
We to the genocide Za.
4:18
We demand justice.
4:20
Now
4:23
it's time.
4:24
Fossil Fuel Treaty free.
4:39
Sean Adams: This conversation that
4:40
you're about to hear takes place
4:42
backstage at EarthSonic Live
4:45
in Manchester.
4:45
It was a reasonably calm, thoughtful
4:48
conversation, and it was in a room
4:53
where there wasn't an amazing setup.
4:55
So there's just video of Tori
4:57
because it was far too complicated
5:00
to get myself on camera.
5:01
If you subscribe to the Drowned in Sound
5:03
YouTube channel, you will be able
5:04
to find many more videos from my trip
5:08
to Manchester where I watched people.
5:11
Sampling frogs and having a
5:13
music lesson in how to make music
5:15
with frog sounds.
5:17
I saw artists performing
5:18
underneath the skeletons of whales.
5:22
I watched an installation with
5:25
beautiful scenery, um, and lush music
5:28
with the lights turned out at night
5:29
in the museum, which was great, and the
5:31
evening was topped off by a performance
5:33
or a DJ set.
5:34
From Groove Mata, so that's EarthSonic.
5:37
But this is my conversation with
5:38
Tori Tsui, which took place at
5:40
Manchester Museum, which is a natural
5:42
history museum in Manchester.
5:44
Over to me introducing
5:46
Tory again.
5:59
Hi, Tori.
5:59
Welcome to the Drowning
6:00
Sound Podcast.
6:01
, we are in Manchester today, backstage at
6:03
EarthSonic Live.
6:04
The last time you were here, You stood
6:06
on a very big stage in front of a large
6:09
crowd of massive attack fans Mm.
6:11
having just got Andy Burnham to sign,
6:12
the fossil free nonproliferation
6:14
treaty.
6:15
I have to pause saying that because
6:16
there's a lot of words to get out.
6:18
, what is that and how did that
6:19
all come about?
6:20
Tori Tsui: Thank you for having me on
6:21
the podcast, Sean.
6:23
And yeah, that moment in Manchester
6:26
was quite an iconic one.
6:27
That happened earlier this year
6:29
in June actually.
6:31
Um, as part of their performance that
6:33
they were doing at the Co-op Live,
6:35
which is apparently the most sustainable
6:37
arena in the uk.
6:39
Sean Adams: co-op Are the good
6:40
guys, aren't
6:41
Tori Tsui: they?
6:41
Yeah.
6:41
Well you say that, but not to digress,
6:44
but they, were being sponsored
6:46
by Barclayss, which I did call
6:47
out on stage.
6:48
Um, but yeah, you mentioned the
6:50
fossil fuel treaty.
6:52
They're essentially a global framework
6:54
to phase out from coal, oil, and
6:57
gas
6:57
and they're a complimentary
6:58
agreement to the Paris Agreement,
7:00
which was trying to keep the world
7:02
within 1.5 degrees of warming,
7:04
which as we know, unfortunately we
7:06
have exceeded that.
7:07
Yeah.
7:07
And I say we with this kind
7:09
of, I dunno,
7:10
I lament slightly because We
7:13
implies that it's.
7:14
A a collective thing, which by
7:17
all means is.
7:18
But actually there are people who are
7:19
most responsible for us going over
7:22
1.5 degrees, and there are industries
7:24
most responsible, specifically
7:25
the fossil fuel industry and.
7:27
and fossil fuels, coal, oil, and gas
7:30
account for 86% of all carbon emissions
7:33
over the past 10.
7:33
years.
7:34
And The fossil fuel treaty is
7:36
essentially trying.
7:37
to get the world to phase out from these
7:39
addictive materials.
7:41
the thing that's really frustrating,
7:43
with something like Paris is that it
7:46
doesn't actually mention coal, oil
7:48
and gas despite them being the
7:50
leading cause of the climate crisis.
7:52
And as we've seen with the UN FCCC
7:56
Cop 30 in, beem, um, the sort of
7:59
biggest climate conference each
8:01
year, there isn't really much of
8:04
this emphasis on actually phasing
8:07
out from fossil fuels that they're
8:08
taking seriously.
8:10
Firstly because we keep seeing
8:12
them host cops and petrostate.
8:13
Secondly, because the biggest
8:15
delegation is always made up of people
8:18
from the fossil fuel industry.
8:20
And thirdly, every single time
8:22
fossil fuel phase out gets kind of
8:23
mentioned to, to be implemented in
8:25
the agreement, it's just shut down.
8:28
And that's unsurprising
8:30
because there are so many lobbyists
8:31
in the room.
8:33
Sean Adams: So what does it mean for
8:33
like Andy Burnham?
8:34
What's He committed to doing?
8:35
Is he just committed to like not having
8:37
a coal power station in Manchester?
8:40
Tori Tsui: Well, I mean, if he did
8:41
open a coal power station, we'd
8:42
be having some words with him.
8:44
But to have, um, a city like
8:46
Manchester, which I think actually
8:48
has like stand on in terms of their
8:49
commitments to sustainability.
8:51
Specifically, if you look around
8:52
the sort of like, um, commitments
8:54
to sustainable transport, which
8:56
I think is very impressive.
8:57
Sean Adams: They're even called
8:58
the B Network.
8:59
Tori Tsui: process.
8:59
Yeah.
8:59
Yeah.
9:00
It's very green Um, and you know.
9:03
to have Someone like, um, mayor Andy
9:04
Burnham endorses just goes to show
9:07
that cities can lead the way to
9:09
a greener future.
9:10
And, and also folks like Massive
9:12
Attack who really stand committed
9:14
to, um, Lowering their carbon
9:17
footprint what would their sort
9:18
of act 1.5 initiative and the
9:20
way that they power their concerts on
9:22
renewable energy and, and just
9:24
generally stand on the right side of
9:25
history in terms of political views.
9:27
It was really impactful for us and
9:29
you know, I think.
9:30
endorsements are an interesting
9:32
thing when it comes to, uh, I guess
9:35
something like the treaty because
9:37
while I. you know, we might not think
9:40
they have material change embedded into
9:43
the action itself.
9:44
I do think that having people with
9:47
large profiles and political power
9:49
can actually shift the dialogue And
9:51
get our, Our,
9:53
national governments to act in a way
9:55
in accordance with something like the
9:56
Fossil Fuel Treaty.
9:57
And it's currently endorsed by 18
9:59
nation states, so 18 countries
10:01
around the world.
10:02
And that endorsement actually does
10:04
translate into change because
10:06
this year is the first year that
10:07
they're trying to implement, um.
10:10
you know, policy changes within
10:11
their legislation to move away from
10:13
fossil fuels, which is really exciting.
10:16
And at the.
10:17
Cop,
10:18
The, um, fossil Fuel Treaty
10:20
announced they would be hosting
10:21
the first ever fossil fuel phase
10:25
out conference in Columbia next April.
10:27
Sean Adams: Should that to be a
10:28
festival you go to get another
10:29
F in there?
10:30
Tori Tsui: Oh my gosh, for sure Get a
10:32
Sean Adams: massive attack on the bill.
10:33
Tori Tsui: Well, might have
10:34
to.
10:34
Sean Adams: Yeah.
10:35
Um, so in terms of the music
10:38
industry mm-hmm.
10:39
Like you straddle the climate
10:41
world, which we all straddle the
10:42
climate world.
10:43
Sure.
10:43
And the.
10:44
music industry.
10:45
And I looked and I couldn't see
10:48
if lots of music companies had
10:49
signed the treaty.
10:50
Mm-hmm.
10:51
Like obviously vinyl is made with
10:53
petrochemicals.
10:54
Yeah.
10:54
Um, And we've been looking into within
10:57
place of war, the emissions and
10:59
the energy use of streaming platforms.
11:01
Yeah.
11:01
And how things like tracks have gone
11:04
from being, I'm gonna glance at
11:07
Ellie, who's been doing the research
11:08
but about 20, megs a song, to about
11:10
180 megs a song.
11:12
So the amount of energy you use
11:13
every time you stream a song Yeah.
11:15
is more, Mm-hmm.
11:16
um, and most people aren't really
11:17
thinking about it.
11:17
Obviously individually Sure.
11:19
we can't make that much difference, but
11:21
if Apple, Spotify, all of the other
11:24
platforms thought about the energy
11:26
use, Mm. they could say, well, this
11:28
is the low, and it Like your headphones
11:31
aren't that good.
11:31
You don't need to be listening to
11:32
it, this quality.
11:33
Sure, sure.
11:34
Um, so I guess the, the thing that.
11:37
I'm curious about is like the
11:38
music industry is obviously a
11:39
huge industry.
11:40
Yeah.
11:41
Ships things all around the
11:42
world, Mm-hmm.
11:43
hasn't really introduced the new
11:45
formats of vinyl.
11:46
Like Yeah.
11:47
I know there's like the K-pop
11:48
for Planet, planet movement and they're
11:50
really great at like getting K-pop
11:51
artists to kind of change how,
11:52
they operate.
11:53
I guess like what sort of things have
11:55
you seen and and maybe are all the
11:56
big record companies and streaming
11:58
services signed up?
11:59
Tori Tsui: Well, the first comment
12:01
that you kind of.
12:02
made Was about industries, like
12:04
the music industry endorsing something
12:06
like the treaty, and they can
12:08
technically, I just don't know if many
12:11
people and many, um, big record labels
12:14
touring companies, what have you
12:16
know, that this is an actual action
12:18
that they can do.
12:19
And I think it's because in part,
12:22
you know, the name and the word
12:23
fossil fuel treaty, uh, feels quite,
12:27
um, like a, an entirely
12:29
Different world
12:31
Yeah.
12:31
that, that, uh, only climate people are,
12:33
part of, but that's not true.
12:34
we're
12:35
Sean Adams: we're in a natural history
12:35
museum, right?
12:36
Yeah.
12:36
Of Dinosaur.
12:37
brain.
12:37
Yeah.
12:38
It feels quite removed from
12:38
the music.
12:39
Tori Tsui: And
12:39
I think we have a, we have a job
12:40
at the treaty to kind of break down
12:42
those barriers.
12:42
But also I think maybe there's
12:44
a fear of like, oh, if we're
12:46
committing to this.
12:47
we'll never use fossil fuels.
12:48
But that's, but that's not what
12:49
we're saying.
12:50
I guess what we're saying is that we
12:51
live in this world that is very reliant
12:53
on fossil fuels, and you can be part
12:54
of this transition.
12:56
So we call it.
12:56
a just transition, meaning that no one
12:58
gets left behind.
12:59
it doesn't mean that we Turn off the
13:01
taps and everything ends overnight.
13:02
That's just not physically possible.
13:04
So, you know, I would love to see
13:06
more people in the music industry, more
13:08
big record labels, touring agencies.
13:10
what have you.
13:11
endorse the treaty?
13:13
In terms of developments that
13:15
I'm seeing within the music industry,
13:16
I, there's so many people working at
13:18
the intersection of green energy
13:20
and touring.
13:21
Touring is very carbon intensive.
13:23
Um, whether that be through actually
13:25
putting on the.
13:26
show or getting.
13:28
An artist From A to B and it's not
13:29
just the artist, it's there it's
13:31
the audience.
13:31
Yeah, the audience as well.
13:33
Their teams, um, the band members,
13:35
the equipment that they're
13:36
shipping out.
13:37
There's so many different things
13:39
to factor in, and I think that a lot of
13:43
the time it feels like too much of a
13:45
minefield to even begin to think about
13:47
how to navigate doing a tour
13:50
sustainably that people just don't
13:51
even try at all.
13:52
But I have seen some really awesome
13:55
work being done in that sector.
13:57
My friend Pauline Boon runs um, a
14:00
consultancy business called Solia, and
14:02
her specialty is all about green touring
14:04
and is actually, she's actually
14:06
someone who wants to say to artists.
14:09
You are also worried about this being
14:11
more expensive.
14:12
It can actually cut costs because
14:14
you're saving money that would otherwise
14:16
be spent on fuel.
14:17
And I think that's A really important
14:19
thing to remember is just because
14:20
something's seen as more sustainable,
14:22
doesn't it inherently mean
14:23
that it's gonna cost you more?
14:24
Yeah.
14:24
So the work that she does, in that
14:26
is really cool.
14:27
And also, um, people who are doing
14:29
research in audience opinions on climate,
14:34
I think that's really important
14:35
to shout about because I think
14:37
it's like something like over 70% of
14:39
audience members or people who consume
14:41
music actually want artists
14:43
to take action on the climate.
14:45
Sean Adams: And I think music declares
14:46
Emergency, Did a survey and said
14:47
82% of fans care about the planet.
14:51
Yeah.
14:51
Preserving life on earth, that's huge.
14:53
But only 3% know what to do, Mm.
14:55
and I think that's the big gap, Yeah.
14:57
and that's where artists can come in.
14:58
Exactly.
14:58
And that That's the work you're doing
14:59
with Earth percent and different
15:00
organizations
15:01
Tori Tsui: Yeah.
15:01
Sean Adams: to give artists the
15:03
kind of the option, the vocabulary and
15:05
the voice and the
15:06
Tori Tsui: yeah.
15:06
Sean Adams: what's.
15:07
What's some of the things like you've
15:08
worked with Billie Eilish and you are
15:10
in the Overheated.
15:10
documentary she made, and you Do
15:12
climate conferences with Billie.
15:14
Tori Tsui: Mm-hmm.
15:14
Sean Adams: What is it that you
15:15
think other artists could learn from
15:17
her approach?
15:19
Tori Tsui: Well, I think it does need
15:21
to be said that someone of Billie's,
15:23
um, size and her fandom And and the
15:26
resources that she has means that she
15:28
can technically afford to do more
15:32
than, say, mid small size artists.
15:35
Um, and because of the impact that
15:37
she has, it is worth investing
15:40
in that as well.
15:41
So I just wanna caveat that,
15:43
but there are so many artists of
15:45
her caliber and size who have
15:48
really influential platforms, and.
15:49
I guess.
15:51
You know, they Should be the
15:52
ones taking the responsibility
15:54
to do better.
15:55
Because if someone like Billie can
15:56
do it, then they don't really
15:58
have an excuse.
15:59
I think, Um, I, I really love how
16:04
whenever she sells out an arena and
16:06
she's there, for a while, the food
16:08
goes plant-based.
16:09
Um, there are water refill points,
16:11
there's like an eco village that Reverb
16:13
does where they have lots of people.
16:15
who are.
16:16
Campaigning and canvassing and
16:18
tabling, talking about the sorts of
16:20
organizations that they run, whether
16:22
it's Billie's Mom's organization
16:23
Support, and Feed, which provides
16:25
plant-based meals to a lot of low
16:27
income folks.
16:28
Sean Adams: Her Mom is one
16:28
of my favorite people to follow.
16:29
Mens come I, She's amazing.
16:30
Tori Tsui: I
16:30
love Maggie.
16:31
Maggie Baird: My name is
16:32
Maggie Baird.
16:33
I am the founder of Support and Feed.
16:35
I am the mother of Billie Eilish
16:37
and Phineas, and I'm a citizen
16:40
of the world and love my neighbors
16:43
and in hunger and fixing our broken
16:45
food systems is important to me.
16:47
And one of the goals of support and
16:49
feed, the mission of support and
16:51
feed is to address climate change.
16:54
And food insecurity by taking action,
16:57
moving the world toward a more
16:59
equitable and sustainable
17:01
plant-based food system.
17:03
We first started supporting feed at
17:05
the beginning of the COVID lockdown,
17:08
and because of that, we really thought
17:10
it was sort of a crisis organization.
17:12
We would feed a lot of people, but
17:14
we realize as we feed people these
17:16
beautiful meals.
17:18
These soul enriching meals.
17:20
Meals that are not just feeding them
17:21
for an hour, but are giving them
17:24
a respect of a beautiful restaurant
17:26
quality meal and nourishing them
17:28
and helping them understand that
17:30
plant-based food can be delicious and can
17:32
make you feel great.
17:33
We have a consistent presence in 11
17:35
cities in the us.
17:36
We are also involved with
17:38
other organizations around the world.
17:40
A lot of that is thanks to
17:42
my children.
17:43
So Billie's tour allowed us to expand
17:46
to feed people in the cities on her
17:48
tour and to connect with community
17:50
organizations around the country that
17:52
she was touring to.
17:53
We were able later to do that
17:54
with Paramore and we've done with
17:56
other artists.
17:57
Tori Tsui: She's amazing.
17:58
And I, I say that with such
18:00
fondness because She is almost
18:01
like a mom of the climate movement.
18:03
She's such a kind person
18:05
just the grit that she has, she's
18:07
so dedicated to
18:08
this.
18:08
Um,
18:09
Sean Adams: she's really good
18:09
at explaining things as well.
18:11
Yeah, and I think, and I think one
18:12
of the reasons why I was really
18:13
keen to speak to you is I think
18:16
everything feels quite complicated.
18:18
Yeah.
18:18
And I've listened to a few different
18:19
interviews you've done and we've
18:20
spoken a few times and I feel like
18:23
you have a clarity to the way you
18:24
talk about things.
18:25
And it's like.
18:26
I've been doing different Research
18:28
and you suddenly get into like
18:29
tons and leaders.
18:30
Mm-hmm.
18:31
Tori Tsui: Yeah.
18:31
Mission
18:32
Sean Adams: suddenly start to become
18:32
this quite abstract.
18:34
Tori Tsui: Yeah.
18:34
Sean Adams: And not every day
18:36
and not kind of manageable thing.
18:37
Mm-hmm.
18:37
And I think one of the things, I can't
18:40
remember exactly what you said in a
18:41
different interview, but you were talking
18:43
about the kind of the way in which
18:45
obviously BP came up with the carbon
18:47
footprint Sure.
18:48
and how we've kind of
18:49
individualized and personalized Yeah.
18:51
so much of this, but whereas what you're
18:53
doing with Brian Eno and a Percent
18:55
is very much about.
18:56
Well, you can just give a percent of
18:57
money and this will go to organizations
18:59
that are doing the education that are
19:01
like client Earth taking on the the
19:03
kind of governments and organizations.
19:05
Yeah.
19:05
So I, I guess rather than needing
19:09
to turn an entire venue plant-based
19:11
Tori Tsui: Sure.
19:12
Sean Adams: or run your festival on
19:14
different fuels.
19:15
Yeah.
19:15
like do you think artists are aware
19:17
that there's those simple things that
19:18
they could be doing and like, And and
19:20
do you think that that stuff is
19:21
working in terms of systemic change?
19:24
Tori Tsui: So in terms.
19:25
of Artists being able to donate
19:26
money by a percent, for instance?
19:28
Yeah,
19:28
Sean Adams: like
19:28
a percent.
19:29
Tori Tsui: Yeah.
19:30
You know what, I think, I think
19:32
a lot of artists are Probably
19:35
aware of it.
19:35
I mean, Brian has such an influential
19:37
network of artists, um, from his long
19:40
illustrious career.
19:41
And also the, it's a testament to the
19:43
community building that he does.
19:44
He's.
19:45
Such an incredible glue who brings
19:48
People together from all walks
19:50
of life, not just in music as well.
19:53
Um, and also I bumped into some
19:55
people here who work at, Sony music
19:57
publishing, and they are very aware of
20:00
the work that Earth present's doing and
20:02
EarthSonic as well.
20:03
Um, and it just goes to show that
20:05
there are kind of folks who work
20:07
in impact in the music industry
20:09
who are trying to push these ideas
20:11
as well and really trying to bring
20:12
people on board.
20:13
So I would say that the awareness
20:16
is there to a certain degree.
20:17
Not Everyone knows about them,
20:19
of course, but I think actually the
20:22
biggest fear that people have is
20:24
they're afraid of getting it wrong.
20:26
Now, something like pledging 1% of what
20:29
you earn to the planet, it feels
20:31
pretty low risk.
20:32
But I think actually from a lot of
20:35
artists that I've met they do want
20:37
to be part of the change, but they're,
20:39
they're almost just like, okay, I can
20:40
do that, but what more can I do?
20:42
Um, what feels personal, what
20:44
feels authentic?
20:45
And I think there's a large.
20:47
Part of the, um, hindrance that
20:50
revolves around fear and just
20:53
inauthenticity.
20:54
Like they really wanna do something,
20:55
but they're just afraid of being
20:56
called out Mm-hmm.
20:58
or being seen as hypocrites.
20:59
But at this point, I
21:01
guess my my piece of advice to people
21:04
who feel that way is, you know
21:07
what, we don't have much time.
21:09
Yeah.
21:10
And, and we really need everyone
21:11
to get involved.
21:11
And you'd be surprised.
21:12
I think fans are actually more
21:14
encouraging.
21:15
Of doing something than nothing at all.
21:17
I certainly would be.
21:19
Um, you know, it's not something
21:22
that, um, they're most responsible
21:25
for either.
21:25
Realistically speaking, music
21:27
industry is not the most responsible
21:29
when it comes to climate change.
21:30
There is an entire industry actively
21:33
pumping out CO2 into the atmosphere and
21:37
are lobbying our major conferences,
21:40
and bribing politicians to not
21:43
enforce climate.
21:44
laws.
21:44
Like that's pretty scary.
21:46
But
21:46
Sean Adams: the music, the music
21:47
industry and music fans do use
21:48
the energy grid.
21:49
Tori Tsui: They do?
21:50
Yeah.
21:50
And
21:51
Sean Adams: now that things are
21:51
streaming, like Mm, there's different
21:53
ways in which people are consuming
21:55
music, Sure.
21:55
Which, but then most of where we
21:58
e exist online is on platforms Yeah.
22:01
and the ification, which is the Corey
22:03
doctor term of just like adding
22:06
nonsense functionality
22:08
like the Yeah.
22:09
AI DJ on Spotify.
22:10
Oh
22:10
Tori Tsui: God.
22:10
Sean Adams: And that is burning
22:11
up more energy.
22:12
more Water.
22:13
Just, Sure.
22:13
just to play.
22:14
use.
22:14
So they
22:14
Tori Tsui: are still, yeah,
22:15
they're still part of the solution
22:17
and the problem.
22:17
Yeah.
22:18
Um, I think, perhaps people are aware
22:22
that there is a footprint attached
22:24
to their artistry, their name.
22:26
It's the fear I think, that
22:29
they're gonna be lumped in with
22:31
the big bad guys.
22:33
Yeah.
22:33
Um, At least that's what I
22:34
found from talking to artists and
22:36
also this common.
22:39
rhetoric, Which is, I don't
22:40
know what to do.
22:41
I want to do something, that
22:42
I don't know what to do.
22:43
And also The fact that the music space
22:46
at the moment it's so hard to survive.
22:49
Yeah.
22:49
Like most artists I know are barely
22:52
making ends meet and they don't
22:54
wanna compromise any chance of
22:57
being financially financially
22:59
sustainable.
23:00
I mean, just if we're gonna Talk
23:02
about, say something like, um, what
23:04
was happening in Palestine, what
23:06
is happening in Palestine,
23:07
the genocide.
23:08
So many artists would come up with
23:11
this, um, you know, common grievance,
23:14
which was, I've
23:15
just been warned or told off or yeah.
23:17
or Said that I can't speak about
23:20
this and that I'll get dropped from my
23:22
record label and and things like that.
23:23
And, and I can imagine
23:24
there Probably also similar
23:26
circumstances to do with being
23:27
politically, uh, vocal about climate
23:30
change in the fossil fuel industry.
23:32
Now, the landscape of mainstream
23:34
campaigning has changed quite a
23:36
bit with movements coming and going
23:38
and dying down and rising up, and we've
23:40
seen that with the climate movement.
23:42
It's, It seemed to have gone a lot
23:44
quieter compared to
23:46
the so-called heydays of
23:47
2018 and 2019.
23:49
Sean Adams: I mean, even at
23:50
Glastonbury it was in a heat wave.
23:51
Tori Tsui: Yeah.
23:52
And
23:52
Sean Adams: I don't think a single art,
23:53
like I watched a lot and I looked
23:54
up, a lot of different things.
23:55
I don't think I saw any artist talking.
23:57
Yeah.
23:57
Joining the dots between, you are
23:59
out here sweating.
24:00
Yeah.
24:01
And when you go home, you should
24:02
be taking on the billionaires and the
24:04
corporations Yeah.
24:05
Who are treating our planet and
24:06
the way they are.
24:07
yeah.
24:07
I, I guess one, one conversation
24:09
we've had before is, is using a
24:11
term like climate too complicated
24:13
Mm. 'cause we
24:14
can't see or feel or touch it.
24:16
Whereas You can protect nature,
24:19
you can protect future generations,
24:21
and that's there's something, that idea
24:23
of people wanting to be a protector
24:25
or someone wanting to be a defender.
24:27
Does that, does that language
24:29
help or does it
24:30
Tori Tsui: Yeah.
24:31
It's interesting because we've laid
24:33
a lot of groundwork.
24:34
For the climate movement.
24:36
This has been a term that's come up
24:38
time and time again.
24:39
Um, especially when talking about, you
24:42
know, the impacts of climate change
24:45
or, how this energy source impacts
24:48
the climate.
24:48
or we can reduce climate emissions.
24:50
I mean, it's, it's just such
24:52
a common word in the the lexicon of
24:56
how we talk about environmentalism
24:57
that I think, yeah, a lot of people
24:59
haven't really given it much thought,
25:00
but actually when.
25:01
You talk to people outside of that
25:04
space, it's not a term that really
25:06
resonates with 'em.
25:07
Like you said, it doesn't feel very
25:09
tangible and I think that there's
25:11
almost, um, a part of it that has
25:14
become tainted by mainstream media and
25:16
like there's such a distinct portrayal
25:19
of people in the climate movement
25:20
that it's become something that isn't
25:23
really cool to talk about or interesting
25:26
to talk about.
25:27
Now, obviously, the person who campaigns
25:30
in the climate.
25:31
Uh, in me says, no guys, we need to
25:33
care about this, Like, can we just
25:34
get over ourselves and actually just
25:36
like stop bickering over terminology.
25:38
But actually I think the work that I've
25:40
done in the music space and meeting
25:41
people outside of my own bubble has
25:44
really made me appreciate that
25:46
sometimes leading with climate isn't
25:48
necessarily the best thing to get them to
25:51
act on the climate.
25:53
Yeah.
25:53
Um, I think something that's
25:55
really helped is thinking about,
25:56
okay, what is it that they actually
25:57
care about?
25:58
and how can I
25:59
tie.
26:00
Climate into that or show that it is a
26:03
great magnifier for every single crisis
26:05
on this planet.
26:06
I mean, you know, when working on
26:09
the Together for Palestine concert
26:10
and kind of attending these
26:13
sessions with artists who wanted
26:14
to learn about Palestine, they
26:17
were really engaged and they felt.
26:18
a duty To talk about it.
26:20
Um, and I think that's in part to
26:24
do with oppression also, because it's
26:26
horrific what's been happening and
26:27
every human should feel compelled
26:29
to speak out.
26:29
Sean Adams: Mm-hmm.
26:31
Tori Tsui: But something like
26:32
climate can often be left out of the,
26:35
um, the picture when it comes
26:38
to such a awful awful genocide.
26:42
But it is very much front and center of.
26:45
What is happening?
26:46
I mean, the military industrial
26:47
complex is so carbon intensive.
26:49
We're seeing eco side be committed.
26:51
Um, human rights are a part of
26:54
climate justice.
26:55
And so whenever I try and talk
26:57
to people who are Concerned about
27:00
what's happening to Palestinians, I'm
27:01
also like, you do realize that the
27:04
war, um, industrial complex is in bed
27:06
with the fossil fuel industrial
27:08
complex Yeah.
27:08
and like actually a really key way.
27:11
To tackle these crises from um, a
27:14
unified angle is to think about fossil
27:16
fuels and to think about the military.
27:19
Um, And so I do feel like it's about
27:21
asking them about what's kind of on
27:23
their mind at the moment and then
27:24
trying to bring in climate into that.
27:27
I mean,
27:27
Sean Adams: even as stuff is basic,
27:28
as the number of festivals canceled?
27:29
'cause of extreme Weather, Both
27:31
flooding and heat.
27:33
like Yeah.
27:33
And then the fires in LA Oh gosh.
27:35
literally burnt down recording studios
27:37
early this year.
27:38
Sure.
27:38
And I think there's a lot
27:39
of examples of.
27:40
This isn't something in the
27:42
future, right?
27:43
This is something that is that is
27:44
happening now.
27:45
Mm-hmm.
27:45
And I, And I, I think one of the
27:46
things I've found when I've spoken
27:48
to people, the 1.5 element mm-hmm.
27:50
doesn't quite add up 'cause people
27:51
are so used to putting the oven
27:52
on at 180 or 200 and not you knowing
27:54
the difference.
27:55
Sure.
27:56
But I don't think they that point.
27:56
Tori Tsui: Courage feels So arbitrary.
27:58
Yeah.
27:58
To a lot of people, um, even to someone
28:00
like me who's very conscious of like
28:03
what these things actually entail
28:05
and mean, 1.5 Has been so repeated
28:09
and hammered into my psyche that
28:11
it almost starts to lose meaning.
28:13
And I think it's because something
28:16
like 1.5 we're not on track for,
28:19
and secondly, like a lot of people
28:21
don't really seem to understand
28:23
what that entails.
28:24
What, what does that actually result in?
28:26
What will that look like?
28:27
What number of floods, what number
28:29
of wildfires?
28:29
I think people need to see
28:30
something tangible.
28:32
As opposed to just this like slightly
28:35
obscure number that doesn't really
28:37
hold much personal meaning to people.
28:40
And I think that's also part of, it
28:41
is like in order to really transform
28:44
people's behavior and communicate
28:46
a crisis of this scale, it has to
28:48
feel personal and numbers just don't
28:50
really cut it.
28:51
For a lot of people
28:52
Sean Adams: Mm-hmm.
28:59
Speaker: Hi there.
29:00
It's Emma.
29:00
Hi, I'm Gay Crash in the podcast.
29:02
To quickly tell you about the Drowned
29:04
in Sound Newsletter, every Wednesday I
29:08
invite myself into your inbox with
29:10
permission, of course, to share
29:12
opinion writing and resources, tell you
29:14
about cool things that you should be
29:15
involved in within the world of music,
29:17
activism, et cetera.
29:19
I also bring track of the week and
29:20
a little bit of hopeful news for
29:22
you because we all know that the news
29:24
cycle can be grim at the best at times.
29:26
Strand in Sound newsletter
29:28
every Wednesday in your inbox.
29:30
Sign up now.
29:34
Sean Adams: Mm-hmm.
29:35
you've spoken.
29:36
Quite a bit about how intersectional
29:39
like, and literally we were just talking
29:40
about it there, like with the with
29:42
wars in military.
29:43
Yeah, like if it was an intersection
29:46
a junction, which I like.
29:47
What other things would be at
29:49
that crossroads
29:51
Tori Tsui: at the intersection
29:52
between military and fossil fuels?
29:54
Sean Adams: just like the
29:54
climate movement.
29:55
I feel like every, like,
29:56
it's the, inner, like inequality
29:58
is huge Oh gosh.
29:58
Tori Tsui: Yeah.
29:59
Everything, I mean gender
30:01
inequality, um, racism, disability
30:06
justice as well.
30:07
Injustice rather just general
30:09
human rights.
30:11
Yeah.
30:11
Every single struggle and form
30:14
of oppression enacted on humans
30:17
Non-human animal, others intersects
30:19
with climate change.
30:20
I can't name a single thing
30:21
that isn't either exacerbated.
30:23
by or, you know, um, directly impacting
30:27
the climate.
30:29
Sean Adams: Do you think that the
30:32
world that we're living in right
30:33
now, now, that that
30:36
music has really found its place
30:40
in this space?
30:41
Like, for instance, I can't think
30:42
of many records.
30:43
Mm. That's theme is the what you
30:47
can do or what is happening.
30:49
Like there's lots of songs that
30:50
like the featuring nature projects
30:52
That sounds right Are doing where you
30:54
can credit nature.
30:55
Sure.
30:56
Like it's interesting, there's
30:57
not like a big concept album like,
30:59
but then again you go through like Kate
31:00
Bush's catalog Yeah.
31:02
there's all songs about Nature and
31:03
amongst that, yeah.
31:04
Bjork catalog is full of, but I just
31:06
wonder whether it feels like often
31:09
we have these big political moments
31:12
Mm. and there's like a song that you can
31:14
attach to it or an album, or a whole
31:16
series of events.
31:17
Mm. Do you feel like there's been
31:18
that same kind of.
31:20
impetus?
31:21
Tori Tsui: Not for a while.
31:22
I don't feel like that.
31:24
that's been the case for a while.
31:26
I think if you look at the music
31:29
that kind of gets out there and that
31:30
gets streamed, so much of it has been
31:33
deeply influenced by the social media
31:34
landscape, and it's all about what
31:36
hook sounds catchy and what can be
31:38
attached to a trend.
31:39
And it just all feels like deeply
31:42
commodified.
31:43
And I think that almost Distracts
31:47
us from the quote unquote real world.
31:49
because we're seriously living
31:50
in like this social media landscape
31:52
where people are just trying to get
31:54
something viral as opposed to create
31:56
change and meaning.
31:57
Um, I think that's, yeah, deeply
31:59
influenced the landscape of music.
32:02
I also think that, you know, while
32:03
music is inherently political, um,
32:08
I often remark that apolitical
32:11
music is also a political stance.
32:14
Sean Adams: Yeah.
32:14
Tori Tsui: It's a reflection of the
32:15
times that we live in, and I think
32:17
that in a world.
32:19
that's So fraught with tension and
32:21
politicization, people choosing
32:23
to make music that is inherently
32:25
apolitical is a reflection of
32:27
the fact that it's seen as too
32:29
contentious to
32:29
be
32:30
political.
32:31
So I think there is a real lack of, uh,
32:35
yeah, willingness to make this
32:37
sort of music.
32:38
And also if you look at what sells,
32:40
it's not
32:41
political music.
32:42
Sean Adams: and I think it's also
32:43
like you consider the darkness.
32:46
Like It's not.
32:47
a cheery topic to Talk about.
32:48
Yeah.
32:48
The Like and you just think that
32:51
it's ripe for like some beautiful
32:52
melancholic record.
32:53
Like I know The Cure of sort of touched
32:55
on it and it's, I dunno, it just seems
32:57
fascinating to me that of all the
32:59
topics that songs are written about.
33:02
Yeah.
33:02
And it's like you can't name like
33:03
a big concept album that's Sure.
33:06
Based around all of this.
33:08
Like I know that and Shakar have
33:09
written songs Yeah.
33:11
But
33:11
they're not like Daytime Radio one
33:12
bangers, are they?
33:13
Tori Tsui: Yeah.
33:14
I think there's almost this
33:15
feeling that.
33:16
uh, music is an escape,
33:19
uh, for a lot
33:20
of people.
33:20
And when you have the world as it is
33:24
constantly shoved down your throat,
33:27
probably the last thing you want
33:29
to do is put your headphones on and
33:31
listen to something that reminds you of
33:32
how grim things are.
33:34
Sean Adams: Um,
33:34
obviously people are doing that
33:35
with this podcast,
33:38
Tori Tsui: I mean, I do this every single
33:39
day, you know, I can't switch off.
33:40
Sean Adams: Yeah.
33:40
I almost feel guilty asking you
33:42
these questions 'cause I know how.
33:45
like you've written a lot about eco
33:48
anxiety, and Yeah.
33:49
eco eco survivalism as you've been
33:51
talking about it more recently.
33:52
Sure.
33:53
And like I know the the number of
33:55
days I wake up and I'm like, oh, the
33:58
guardian, have stuck out a news story,
33:59
at 1:00 AM that just seems really bleak
34:01
about the future of life on Earth.
34:02
I know.
34:03
And then by 9:00 AM it's not even
34:05
on their homepage.
34:05
anymore.
34:06
Tori Tsui: I know.
34:06
It's, so scary, isn't it?
34:08
It's, it's something.
34:09
that I've been really conscious
34:10
of lately that The consumption
34:12
of of so-called negative news, um,
34:15
which you might also be able to
34:17
substitute negative for realistic.
34:21
um, And I have found that kind of by
34:25
moving out of solely climate related
34:27
spaces, I've tried to get into the
34:29
heads of everyday people who don't
34:32
engage with this kind of stuff, and I
34:33
can understand why.
34:35
Um, I think that's one of our Greatest
34:39
challenges is to think like
34:40
other people who don't seem to be
34:42
engaged with this.
34:43
and I don't think it's that
34:44
they don't care.
34:45
It's just really hard to care about
34:47
stuff when you're caring about
34:48
1,000,001 other things there.
34:50
Kind of fundamentally rely
34:52
on you, trying to put food on the
34:54
table, provide for other people.
34:55
or, You know, take care of yourself,
34:57
first and foremost in a really short
35:00
window of time.
35:02
whereas something like climate change,
35:04
while it is an.
35:05
existential threat to People
35:06
right now and has impacted people in
35:09
the past as well.
35:11
It doesn't necessarily feel
35:12
like it's on a lot of people's
35:14
doorsteps.
35:14
And I feel like maybe that feeling
35:16
that it's not an urgent thing, even
35:18
though it very much is, stops them from
35:20
feeling invested in the fight.
35:24
Sean Adams: And do you think
35:24
some of that is
35:25
also because the biggest extractors
35:27
and the biggest polluters are
35:29
such big powerful organizations even
35:31
and countries?
35:32
Tori Tsui: Yeah.
35:33
Sean Adams: That like I think
35:34
it's interesting listening to Zach
35:35
Polanski, like he's, I don't think
35:37
I've really heard him talk about
35:38
the environment or climate
35:40
Tori Tsui: in
35:40
Sean Adams: most of the last few months.
35:41
I've heard him talk a lot about
35:43
inequality that's tactical and
35:45
billionaires.
35:46
Tori Tsui: Yeah.
35:46
Sean Adams: And obviously there
35:47
was an amazing clip of Billie recently
35:49
speaking right to Mark Zuckerberg's
35:51
face about how billionaires
35:53
should be using their wealth.
35:55
Tori Tsui: Yeah.
35:56
Speaker 2: We're in a time right now
35:57
where the world is really, really bad
35:58
and really dark and people need
36:01
empathy and help more than kind of
36:04
ever, especially in our country.
36:06
And I'd say if you have money,
36:09
it would be great to use it for good
36:11
things and maybe give it to some
36:12
people that need it.
36:15
Um, and.
36:19
I love you all, but there's a few
36:20
people in here that have a lot
36:21
more money than me.
36:24
And uh,
36:28
if you're a billionaire, why are
36:30
you a billionaire?
36:32
No hate.
36:33
But yeah, give your money
36:35
away, shorty's.
36:36
Love you guys.
36:36
Thank you so much.
36:38
Sean Adams: And
36:38
I wonder whether a lot of this
36:41
and a lot of the intersectional
36:42
topics, mm-hmm.
36:43
they're often entire media organization
36:46
set up by people.
36:46
with all their Money and fossil fuel.
36:48
Yeah.
36:48
Like I think this, yeah,
36:49
Tori Tsui: it's all connected.
36:50
Sean Adams: The, Like De Smog did a
36:51
study and I think there's something
36:52
like 65% of stories in the sun were
36:55
like climate denial rather than
36:57
Tori Tsui: Yeah.
36:57
Sean Adams: Um, and it's like Ruper
36:59
Murdoch has probably got loads of money.
37:00
Tori Tsui: Exactly.
37:01
I mean, you know, the media is also
37:04
in bed with oil and gas and it's
37:06
not surprising that the narratives that
37:08
they're putting out there are really
37:11
not in favor of climate action.
37:13
Um, and when you have.
37:15
Something like that,
37:17
that you're up against the
37:18
billionaires, whether it be
37:20
billionaires in media or tech,
37:22
or you know, in politics.
37:25
it makes you feel really powerless.
37:27
And I can see that a lot of people
37:29
have become deeply disillusioned and
37:31
very depressed and feeling like
37:33
there is no hope.
37:35
There is nothing that we can do
37:38
At the same time.
37:39
I Do feel like when things get so
37:41
bad, there is this inevitability that
37:44
actually the entire world is impacted.
37:47
And so there is no other choice but
37:49
to revolt, And I'm starting to see
37:52
things like that
37:53
bubble to the surface.
37:54
And I do feel like you.
37:55
were Talking about, you know, Zach
37:56
Polanski's messaging campaign, not
37:59
mentioning climate.
38:01
I
38:01
think it's very smart to talk
38:02
about the 1%.
38:04
I think that is deeply
38:06
intentional and is a really clever
38:09
unifying tactic.
38:10
because there are so much more of
38:13
us than of them.
38:15
Yeah.
38:15
And the billionaires are the ones who are
38:18
driving us off the cliff edge as well.
38:20
They're Financial, Um, investments,
38:24
assets, their wealth as a whole
38:26
is directly tied.
38:27
To some of the most polluting industries
38:28
on the planet.
38:29
So by saying we need to, either tax
38:33
the super rich or, you know, hold them
38:34
to account, that's climate action
38:36
in and of itself.
38:37
We don't have to label it as such.
38:39
Um, And the interesting thing
38:41
is that when you talk to So-called
38:44
everyday people who might seem
38:47
against the climate movement, The
38:48
people who criticize like just up oil
38:51
activists for throwing, soup.
38:52
you actually talk to them, they care
38:54
about exactly the.
38:54
same things that We do.
38:56
they want
38:57
a good life for themselves and
38:59
their families.
39:00
A lot of them have unfortunately
39:01
been preyed upon by the super rich
39:03
fed narratives and being manipulated
39:06
and pitted against other minorities
39:09
thinking that this is the way out.
39:11
Um, scapegoating is such a powerful
39:14
tactic and tool, so I'm not
39:16
Surprised that unfortunately a lot
39:18
of very vulnerable people have
39:20
been manipulated and have been
39:25
sort of, you know, commandeer to
39:28
campaign and fight against people
39:30
who are Enduring
39:34
just as bad hardships as them.
39:36
Um, it's Sad.
39:37
It's very sad, But you know, I think
39:40
that tactic of kind of unifying against
39:42
the super rich is probably our best
39:44
chance at this rate.
39:50
Sean Adams: What
39:50
are the solutions
39:51
that
39:51
the average person
39:52
listening to this
39:52
can actually
39:53
do?
39:53
Like
39:53
sure.
39:54
And I was thinking about that when I
39:55
was going through the, questions.
39:56
It's
39:56
like
39:57
We've been
39:58
tackling,
39:59
um, Spotify's royalties for
40:01
ages.
40:01
Mm-hmm.
40:02
We've just been
40:02
going after like the amount of people
40:04
that have left
40:04
Spotify now
40:05
that they are.
40:06
Running
40:06
ice adverts mm-hmm.
40:08
and putting their,
40:09
um,
40:09
money into AI wardrobes
40:12
Oh God.
40:12
and
40:12
suddenly Artists
40:13
are engaging Mm-hmm.
40:15
They're like,
40:15
the
40:16
no Music for
40:16
genocide campaign.
40:17
Yeah.
40:17
Artists are engaging.
40:19
Yeah.
40:19
artists that have been
40:20
completely silent
40:21
for the last
40:22
three years
40:23
Yeah.
40:23
Have all
40:23
been
40:23
engaging.
40:24
Yeah.
40:24
So I think
40:25
that.
40:25
like you said, like it does feel like
40:27
the simmering is
40:27
now
40:27
starting to come
40:28
to the boil.
40:29
Yeah.
40:29
Tori Tsui: Yeah.
40:30
Sean Adams: We're gonna do a series
40:31
in January about music and resilience
40:33
Mm. And I'd be
40:34
interested
40:35
for you
40:36
and for other
40:37
people, you know,
40:38
the role of
40:38
music
40:39
plays
40:39
Tori Tsui: Mm. in
40:40
Sean Adams: resilience in
40:41
Tori Tsui: Yeah.
40:43
Sean Adams: finding
40:44
the
40:44
space that you do need
40:45
to
40:45
escape.
40:46
Tori Tsui: Sure.
40:46
Sean Adams: Like how
40:47
important a
40:47
role
40:48
does
40:48
music play?
40:48
play for you?
40:49
Tori Tsui: Oh my gosh,
40:52
I,
40:52
I
40:52
mean, it's like
40:53
asking me
40:54
how
40:54
important oxygen is to, my livelihood.
40:57
Music is so important
40:58
I feel like
40:59
not only
40:59
from
41:00
a
41:00
point of escapism, but
41:01
just
41:02
joy in bringing
41:03
people together.
41:04
Everyone knows
41:04
that feeling
41:05
of like
41:06
being in a
41:06
room full
41:07
of people
41:08
who are
41:08
all there to
41:09
see this
41:09
one artist,
41:10
and
41:10
there's
41:10
that one song that everyone knows
41:11
and they feel so
41:12
connected
41:13
and
41:13
so
41:13
moved and
41:16
for me, That
41:17
translates even
41:18
further when I think about artists who
41:20
are taking a stand
41:21
for the world that I want to
41:23
live in.
41:23
I remember
41:24
when,
41:24
um,
41:25
Billie
41:25
came
41:26
to the uk,
41:27
I think it was two
41:28
summers ago
41:28
now, and
41:29
she did like this really small
41:31
surprise
41:32
set at the electric ballroom
41:34
in Camden, and
41:35
she was like, oh my
41:35
God, I haven't done a
41:36
small
41:36
show
41:37
years 'cause it's been 10
41:39
years since Ocean
41:40
Ice came out.
41:40
and and that's kind of what
41:41
propelled her
41:42
to Start him at
41:43
13. And
41:43
Sean Adams: also 'cause
41:44
of lockdown.
41:44
She sort of
41:45
bypassed playing a lot of those
41:46
smaller shows.
41:46
She got so big so quick.
41:47
Tori Tsui: Yeah,
41:48
exactly.
41:49
And
41:49
she was
41:49
doing this
41:50
really
41:50
small show.
41:52
and all of the fans in the audience
41:54
were just mesmerized, you
41:57
know, and just
41:58
so entranced by her every
42:00
word, and everything
42:02
that she was saying.
42:03
And I was like, that's what
42:04
it's about.
42:05
Like that's how
42:05
you use your fandom responsibly
42:07
because there are so
42:08
many.
42:08
People who
42:10
Would
42:10
literally do
42:11
anything for the artists
42:12
that they love.
42:13
And I'm like, how great is it
42:14
that we have an
42:15
artist who really
42:17
stands on the right side of history
42:18
and really tries
42:19
to use their platform in
42:21
and outside of their music?
42:22
, so I
42:22
remember that
42:23
feeling and I remember
42:24
thinking, oh yeah,
42:25
this is the sector I wanna work in
42:26
'cause just look how compelled and move
42:29
these people are.
42:30
And I
42:30
felt that as a fan of,
42:31
Billie's
42:32
and also
42:32
a consumer of
42:33
music,
42:34
like
42:35
also
42:35
being
42:35
neurodivergent so much.
42:37
of The way
42:37
that music moves through me is
42:39
deeply, deeply
42:40
emotional and powerful.
42:41
And it
42:42
can literally
42:43
be the difference between me having a
42:45
bad
42:45
day and having a great day, or
42:46
me feeling
42:47
like kind of a bit
42:49
numb and, then feel so
42:50
emotional and compelled and,
42:52
compassionate
42:53
about,
42:54
um, yeah,
42:55
the piece
42:55
that
42:55
I'm
42:55
listening to.
42:56
So
42:57
yeah, music
42:58
is
42:58
a huge part
42:58
of my life.
42:59
It
42:59
always
42:59
has been.
42:59
And that's
43:00
a really funny
43:01
thing is
43:01
I
43:02
remember when
43:02
I was younger
43:02
and I grew up in Hong Kong, I kind of
43:04
started doing like.
43:05
freelance work for this one production
43:07
company that would bring indie acts
43:09
to um, Eastern, Southeast Asia.
43:12
Mm-hmm.
43:12
And I remember
43:13
thinking at that point, I wanna
43:14
work in music.
43:15
And
43:15
then
43:16
that
43:16
kind of fell to the sidelines and
43:18
I was like, well, I'm working
43:19
climate now.
43:20
I don't know if
43:21
that's ever a thing that can combine.
43:23
And lo and behold here I am.
43:24
I'm like, oh, this feels like coming
43:26
back home to myself in a weird way.
43:28
, Sean Adams: that really leads into my
43:29
next question 'cause here we
43:30
are, we're at Earth, Sonic Live.
43:31
Yeah.
43:32
It's
43:32
a
43:33
takeover of the Natural
43:34
History Museum in Manchester.
43:36
The Manchester,
43:36
Museum
43:37
And music is right at the core
43:39
of what this event
43:40
is.
43:41
And
43:42
I'm curious,
43:43
like you've, you've been on
43:44
stage, you've spoken a
43:45
couple
43:45
of things,
43:45
today.
43:46
Mm-hmm.
43:47
like events like this are kind
43:48
of rare where
43:49
it's like
43:50
climate talks Yeah.
43:51
And live performances
43:52
underneath
43:53
the
43:53
skeleton of a whale.
43:54
Yeah.
43:54
Um, do you think that
43:56
that's,
43:57
there should be more of
43:57
that like at festivals and.
43:59
like And all the
44:00
different
44:00
Yeah, like, and
44:01
also you were saying earlier
44:02
about
44:03
how
44:03
the joy
44:04
of
44:04
music when you were talking
44:05
like how the like
44:06
parties are
44:06
much
44:07
better.
44:07
Yeah.
44:07
Like as some of the climate events,
44:09
are they needing
44:10
DJs
44:10
and
44:10
bands?
44:11
Tori Tsui: They
44:11
really
44:11
are.
44:12
They really are.
44:13
A good friend of
44:13
mine, and fellow climate
44:15
activists, Dominique Palmer always
44:16
says,
44:17
I don't
44:18
wanna be part
44:18
of your
44:18
revolution.
44:19
if I can't dance.
44:20
And I
44:21
really
44:21
love
44:21
that.
44:22
that saying, because
44:23
I think that taps into the
44:25
necessity of.
44:26
joy, not
44:26
only as, you know, um, a motivator to
44:29
continue campaigning,
44:30
but just part
44:30
of our humanity.
44:32
And I think that
44:33
one of the
44:35
biggest
44:36
shortcomings of
44:38
large
44:39
movements is that they don't
44:40
have enough
44:41
street parties.
44:42
They
44:42
don't
44:42
have
44:42
enough festivals and music and
44:44
dance and
44:45
art
44:46
imbued into their
44:47
existence.
44:48
Um,
44:48
and I
44:48
think that's
44:49
a huge
44:49
disservice because
44:51
it's
44:51
just a great unifier.
44:52
It's a great
44:53
way
44:53
of bringing
44:54
people together.
44:54
It makes people feel, and I
44:56
think feeling.
44:57
Is
44:58
what motivates
44:58
change
45:00
and without
45:01
care and connection,
45:04
why
45:04
bother,
45:05
you know?
45:06
So music for
45:07
me is, is everything.
45:09
And, um,
45:10
I think going down this
45:11
route of
45:13
bringing music and climate
45:14
action together.
45:15
and it doesn't even
45:15
have to, just be climate action
45:17
as it's
45:18
colloquially
45:18
known,
45:20
is something that,
45:22
um, makes
45:23
me feel at home
45:24
because I
45:25
felt for so long that these, these
45:27
worlds didn't intersect, or
45:28
that they didn't belong together.
45:30
And and now that I get to do this kind
45:31
of work, I'm like,
45:32
oh yeah, this is possible.
45:35
This is, this is where real change
45:37
for me begins.
45:39
Sean Adams: So I'll do very
45:40
quick five final two questions.
45:42
Tori Tsui: Mm.
45:43
Sean Adams: One,
45:43
carbon credits
45:45
Oh God.
45:45
a bit of A nonsense
45:46
from what I
45:47
can tell.
45:47
Yeah, Yeah,
45:48
there was a study.
45:49
the Guardian
45:50
did
45:51
94% of rainforest
45:53
carbon
45:53
credits, certified by Vera.
45:55
Mm-hmm.
45:55
, they're the world's leading.
45:56
certifier.
45:57
Tori Tsui: Yeah.
45:58
Sean Adams: Um, what called
45:58
phantom credits.
45:59
Yeah.
45:59
They don't represent real
46:01
climate benefits.
46:02
Mm-hmm.
46:02
Yet, Spotify, shell, Disney and all
46:04
these people buy
46:05
them like greenwash and I think like
46:07
Taylor Swift bought loads of carbon
46:08
credits
46:08
to
46:09
offset her tour and
46:10
Tori Tsui: Yeah.
46:11
Sean Adams: what?
46:12
what?
46:12
should
46:12
people be doing instead?
46:14
I mean, obviously.
46:14
not using the carbon in
46:15
the first place, I'm guessing, but
46:16
Tori Tsui: I mean, I liken
46:18
carbon credits to a get out of jail
46:20
Free your card.
46:21
It doesn't actually mean
46:22
that
46:22
you haven't committed
46:23
the felony that
46:24
has put you
46:25
in
46:25
jail in
46:25
the
46:25
first
46:26
place.
46:26
It doesn't
46:27
erase
46:27
your past.
46:28
Um,
46:29
I
46:29
think that so
46:30
much
46:30
of what is out there,
46:33
technological solutions,
46:34
uh.
46:35
tree
46:35
planting.
46:36
schemes.
46:36
I was waiting.
46:36
If you just
46:37
Sean Adams: suddenly start talking
46:37
about
46:37
techno, then
46:38
Tori Tsui: Oh yeah.
46:39
Techno, It's all
46:41
bogus.
46:41
I
46:41
mean,
46:42
and it's
46:42
just
46:43
a form of like green colonialism, 'cause
46:44
What you find.
46:45
is It's
46:45
often the richest countries and
46:47
people who
46:49
have
46:49
historically,
46:50
um, committed oppression,
46:52
uh, against
46:53
people in the
46:53
global south who are,
46:55
say,
46:56
buying up pieces
46:57
their, of their land
46:58
to plant, plant non-native trees on,
47:02
uh,
47:02
land where those things
47:03
won't thrive and
47:04
they'll just die.
47:05
I mean,
47:05
it's just an excuse for
47:06
them to
47:06
keep
47:07
polluting as normal, but
47:08
that's
47:08
not
47:08
actually
47:09
getting to the
47:09
crux of the matter.
47:10
It's not a solution.
47:11
It's just
47:12
like
47:12
the equivalent of.
47:14
mopping up the floor when the bath is
47:16
overflowing
47:17
instead of turning it off at the taps.
47:19
, it
47:19
seems
47:19
Sean Adams: a
47:19
bit
47:19
like going into confession.
47:20
booth.
47:21
It's like
47:21
you're not
47:21
gonna undo your crime
47:22
by
47:22
confessing.
47:23
to
47:23
Tori Tsui: it.
47:23
Yeah.
47:23
Yeah.
47:24
And,
47:24
and,
47:24
and also it, just,
47:26
it
47:26
what it does
47:27
is it creates a social
47:28
license
47:29
for
47:29
these big polluters
47:30
to just
47:30
keep doing business as
47:31
usual.
47:32
So much of,
47:34
um, the
47:34
investment that
47:35
fossil fuel
47:36
companies
47:36
make
47:37
into
47:37
so-called green
47:38
solutions
47:38
or
47:40
these
47:40
technological solutions.
47:42
like,
47:42
oh gosh,
47:43
you
47:43
know, whether it's carbon
47:44
sequestration and
47:45
absorbing
47:46
carbon
47:46
from the atmosphere,
47:47
They're not actually doing
47:48
it
47:48
for the benefit of.
47:49
the planet, they're doing
47:50
it to buy themselves more
47:51
time and to make
47:52
themselves seem
47:53
more
47:53
noble.
47:54
Um, and
47:55
that they're on the right
47:56
side of the transition,
47:57
when they're
47:57
not
47:58
because they're not investing in
47:59
renewables
48:00
and they,
48:00
they invest
48:01
in
48:01
like
48:02
these
48:02
green energy solutions
48:03
that
48:03
actually
48:04
they
48:04
end
48:05
up withdrawing
48:05
from.
48:05
I think like Shell
48:06
invested in
48:07
this like algae energy solution.
48:10
And then they
48:10
pulled all their funding out of
48:11
it 'cause it just
48:12
was no longer relevant to them.
48:14
So
48:15
yeah, I'm
48:15
not
48:15
a
48:15
fan of these kinds
48:16
of things.
48:17
Sean Adams: So if
48:18
music fans
48:19
are listening to this and musicians
48:21
and they want to
48:22
improve parts
48:24
of the music
48:25
ecosystem
48:27
and
48:27
also use music
48:28
to speak
48:29
either as an
48:29
example or
48:31
as
48:31
a
48:32
tool to kind of hold the rest of the
48:33
world accountable,
48:34
what
48:35
does the transition
48:36
look like?
48:37
I mean, we've got
48:39
Mad man in, in as a president
48:41
in America's talking about
48:42
windmills.
48:43
Um, but
48:45
like I've seen like certain days
48:46
in
48:46
Scotland, like completely
48:48
empowered, completely
48:49
powered by wind.
48:50
Yeah.
48:50
So, cool.
48:51
And it's like you see these like
48:52
tidal projects and
48:54
like that's energy all
48:55
day.
48:56
Yeah.
48:56
Every day the tide goes in and
48:57
out every day.
48:58
you're gonna get energy from there.
48:59
Like What What should people
49:00
be pushing for?
49:01
Because obviously data centers mm-hmm.
49:03
are a
49:03
big.
49:04
issue.
49:04
Like they use a lot of
49:05
water.
49:06
Tori Tsui: Sure.
49:06
Sean Adams: In Ireland they've,
49:08
um, 'cause it's a tax
49:09
haven for a lot of companies, yeah.
49:11
They were using up more energy
49:12
than
49:12
all of the homes.
49:13
in some areas.
49:14
Yeah.
49:14
And
49:14
it's like You'd imagine those very
49:16
activated,
49:18
um, political voices in the music scene
49:20
in Ireland would
49:21
start
49:21
to
49:21
speak up
49:21
about that.
49:22
Like what should
49:23
people be
49:23
speaking up for?
49:24
I guess
49:24
that's probably,
49:25
I
49:25
know that's a very big question.
49:26
Yeah,
49:27
that's a lot.
49:28
Tori Tsui: I mean, it kind of goes back
49:29
to what.
49:29
we were speaking
49:30
about
49:30
before,
49:30
Which is what's personal to you?
49:32
Um, is there a particular
49:34
issue that you are very
49:35
passionate about
49:36
and
49:37
care
49:37
a lot about,
49:38
and how
49:38
do you kind of tie that into
49:39
the broader
49:40
issues that
49:41
exist within
49:41
society?
49:43
That's
49:43
what I
49:43
would
49:44
kind of say to
49:44
people working in music, whether
49:45
that's,
49:46
you know, I wanna, protect this certain
49:47
species that
49:48
I really care about or this particular
49:49
habitat, or
49:51
I absolutely hate the
49:52
impacts of environmental.
49:53
racism on a community I grew
49:55
up
49:55
in, or you know,
49:56
the rise of
49:57
authoritarianism and
49:58
fascism is deeply impacting my
49:59
community.
50:00
I wanna campaign against that.
50:02
It's all connected and I
50:04
think that
50:04
the
50:05
sooner we realize
50:06
that
50:06
everything is connected, I'm
50:07
less inclined to tell people what to
50:09
campaign for, instead just ask
50:12
them to campaign about something
50:14
Um,
50:15
that feeds into the wider issues
50:17
in society.
50:18
I would also,
50:19
because I'm
50:20
biased, I
50:20
obviously
50:21
Work in the climate space, I would
50:23
tell people to endorse the fossil
50:24
fuel treaty.
50:25
I genuinely think that's
50:26
our best way out
50:27
of this mess.
50:28
Like,
50:29
I'm not even just saying
50:30
that because I
50:30
work with them There
50:31
is a
50:31
reason I work with them
50:32
Yeah.
50:33
because I
50:33
genuinely
50:34
believe in what they're doing
50:35
and
50:35
I feel like, but not
50:35
Sean Adams: short of offers
50:36
are people that want
50:36
to work
50:37
with you.
50:37
Tori Tsui: Yeah.
50:38
Yeah.
50:38
I I mean it's, it's a phenomenal
50:40
solution and it's grounded in justice
50:43
and it is deeply
50:44
intersectional and it has shown
50:45
that we can work.
50:46
with the arts.
50:47
I mean, we've worked with
50:48
Massive Attack.
50:49
We can work with so
50:50
many other artists, big or small,
50:52
who want to
50:52
create that
50:53
change.
50:54
I mean, we
50:54
literally have our own,
50:55
um, musical project called,
50:57
this is Our
50:57
Home
50:57
Project, and they're
50:58
from small island
51:00
states in
51:00
the Pacific.
51:01
And.
51:02
They're literally scouted by
51:04
Chris Martin because they
51:05
came
51:05
to.
51:06
Brian Eno
51:06
Studio one day Brian
51:08
sent a video of them to Chris Martin and
51:10
then they toured
51:10
all
51:11
around
51:11
Australia and
51:12
New Zealand
51:12
with
51:12
Chris
51:13
kind of
51:13
promoting
51:14
their music,
51:15
which is rooted
51:16
in,
51:16
um,
51:17
storytelling and
51:18
being
51:19
one with the environments
51:21
that they grew up in
51:22
and about preserving
51:23
culture and heritage.
51:24
and and it just goes to show it can be
51:26
done.
51:27
So, yeah.
51:28
I just tell people to endorse the
51:30
fossil fuel, treat and work with
51:31
us basically.
51:33
Sean Adams: It
51:33
can be done.
51:34
Tori Tsui: It
51:34
can be
51:34
done.
51:35
Absolutely.
51:36
Absolutely.
51:36
It
51:36
Sean Adams: feels like the
51:37
final
51:37
word.
51:38
Yeah.
51:38
Thank
51:38
you
51:38
so much
51:39
for your time.
51:39
Tori Tsui: It be, thank you.
51:40
Um,
51:40
Sean Adams: if people
51:41
want to follow
51:42
you
51:42
and your
51:43
Oracle
51:44
like
51:44
knowledge, whereabouts would
51:45
you recommend they go?
51:46
Uh,
51:46
Tori Tsui: well, I guess you could say
51:48
I most active on
51:48
Instagram,
51:49
um,
51:50
at
51:50
Tori Tsui, so that's
51:51
T-O-R-I-T-S-U-I.
51:54
Speaker 6: under
51:54
Tori Tsui: I always
51:55
forget there's an underscore.
51:56
I don't know why because at Tori Tsui
51:58
doesn't
51:58
even
51:59
exist as a username, but I
52:00
can't change it.
52:01
Yeah.
52:01
So I have a random
52:02
underscore.
52:03
Um, but I would
52:04
also
52:04
implore people
52:05
to follow at Fossil Fuel Treaty
52:07
'cause there's some really, really
52:09
important climate information
52:10
we share and also
52:10
campaigns and
52:12
yeah,
52:12
it's uh,
52:13
for lack
52:13
of a better
52:14
word,
52:14
gives
52:14
you a lot of hope.
52:15
Hope
52:16
Sean Adams: that's the
52:16
last word.
52:17
Yeah.