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Courage Over Confidence: How to Speak Up and Step Into the Career You Want · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willis, and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience, and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women Job Book and Community.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: In this show, I'm honored to be chatting with remarkable women, redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success at the children, the boundaries of balance, the challenges they face, and how they cover them to find their own version of success.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Shy away from the real talk.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: We cover it all.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Think of this as coffee with your mates, mixed with an inspiring TikTok, sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure you're cozy and get ready to get inspired and chase your oldest dreams or just survive Mondays.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: This is the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Ready to find your perfect job?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Search their website at investinginwomen.co.uk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Now back to the show.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Work It Like a Mont podcast.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Today, you are all in for a real treat because we have got the incredible Jennifer Spur.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: If you are on LinkedIn, you probably follow Jennifer.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: She is an ICF accredited career and leadership coach.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: She supports women in leadership to accelerate their careers and dial up their impact and results on their terms.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Her content is incredible.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: Prior to starting her business, Jen spent almost 20 years in marketing, leading big household name brands such as Canterbury.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: She continues to work as a fractional CMO alongside her coaching business as well.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for joining me.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh thank you for having me and thanks for that intro.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that you Jennifered me.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Only my dad, Jennifer.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, do that.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, it will be Jen now.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: We'll have to do Jen.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: But your content is so empowering.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think that the first thing everyone should do is go and follow Jen and we'll put her um her LinkedIn handle in the show notes.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess what's maybe so passionate about helping women to achieve, you know, their full potential, I guess, in those leadership roles.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, I just why am I so passionate about it?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think what I really we work so hard, don't we?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: We work, you know, all the hours, we give everything that we've got, and we want to have the impact and the results that we want.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so I feel really passionate about making sure that you know, when we're when we're putting in all of that hard work, that we are we're actually creating a career and a life that we want, right?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I want us to be doing work that we find fulfilling and energizing and impactful, and I want that to also translate into life, you know, it shouldn't be at the expense of everything else.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, for me, I really want to do the school run.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: I know that's not necessarily a cool thing to say, you know, all the time, but you know, I want to do the school run every day.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: I want to hang out with my kids after school, and I want at the same time, I want to do work that is fulfilling and interesting, and so I want to help other women be able to create that for themselves.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so maybe that is in where what their career looks like, and maybe that is about the impact and the results that they have within work, but ultimately we put so much time and energy into work.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: I want it to mean something for us.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: I want it, I feel the same.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like I feel I set up my business because I couldn't get that part-time job, and I really knew I wanted to do the school run.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I'll be honest, now I do the school run most days, it's nice not to.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I feel like I don't know if you felt it felt a bit unfashionable to say that.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, 100%, 100% to say, you know, to stand up and be like, right, I'm leaving now.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I did have the role where I did have flexibility.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: So when I went back to work after my second maternity leave, so um, when I when I was at um Mondolise, um they were brilliant.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: They created a three-day-a-week role for me, it was very interesting, and I I had that, but I couldn't see how I was going to keep hold of that.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: What do you mean by money?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of so they gave it to me after I came back from maternity leave.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: Would I still have that type of role now?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it was really important to me to then, you know.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like my kids are uh seven and eight now.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: I have to think about that then.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: My kids are seven and eight now, and I feel like they need me more now than they did before when I came back after maternity leave.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I really wanted to have that control myself about how how my how my work life looked, how my career went.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think obviously we work for ourselves, so we do have much more control over things like the school room.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I do feel, and I'm sure a lot of people listening feel that there is a bit of a mummy track in corporate roles if you work part-time flexibly.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you counteract that?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there is that I think the fear that if you take part-time, then you stay stuck unless you go on to full-time.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's a tricky one to answer because I did I did come out before before that became an issue for me.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: However, when I think about my previous colleagues and my friends, there are organizations who do invest brilliantly in supporting women at work, whose policies mean that taking a part-time role doesn't mean it doesn't mean that your career is kind of stalled.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I do think there are organizations out there.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: What I think though is when you are in that organization, they generally facilitate it well.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: When you then look to move to another one, that's when I think it becomes much harder.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: And in finding out, finding who are those companies that do support well because it is a structural change for them, right?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: To be able to facilitate it, particularly the higher up that you get, to be able to do those roles, they do need to have thought very carefully about how they will make that happen.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder how it'd be interesting to know how you coach women then that are making that leap then.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, from that maybe mid-management to senior upper management, what some of the fears they have um before making that leap, and how do you help?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, there's so many.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think the um the golden handcuffs is one, right?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: There is the real the reality of the uh the salary and the position and the financial package that many of my clients have, there means they're making a change can feel very scary because they are well rewarded for what they do currently.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: So they might so I think it becomes um it it's simpler if you like, uh, if somebody is looking to move within their organization or move within a similar type of organization, but they want something slightly differently.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: So here we might think about okay, what type of work am I after?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: How does this how does this fit with my values?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Am I leveraging my strengths?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: What type of culture do I want to work in?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: What type of people do I want to work with?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: All of those kind of things.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: Then we can kind of work at how do we make that happen.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: A bigger challenge and where things like the golden handcuffs come in is where um they want to make a much bigger pivot, and that feels very scary.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: I've got the financial security, and then am I you know putting my family's stability at risk by making this change, by choosing something for me?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Am I putting my family's financial stability at risk?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that becomes then you've got you know, there needs to be much much more building blocks in the way to for them to then feel you know comfortable enough to make that happen, you know, really kind of work through it.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: And also sometimes they come to me going, do you know what?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: I want to quit this corporate job and I want to, you know, retrain as a counsellor, I'm gonna do this, and then we really dig into the realities of it.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, do you know what?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: That probably doesn't fit with my values.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: I had quite a rose-tinted glasses view of that, and then we go, okay, what is it that you thought about this thing over here that you wanted?
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: What is that, what was what were you aiming for with that?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then how do we make that happen in other ways?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do we get that fulfillment in other places?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it's so everything I do is so bespoke that it could it goes anywhere to come from what people's start point is.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Do people have um a worry, I guess, as well, going into more senior leadership roles when they're managing more people?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, does imposter syndrome come in and with a lot of your clients?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I yes, I hear that a lot, and confidence is one of the main things that um particularly women in leadership will come to me and say um they feel is holding them back.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: So either they're feeling like they need more confidence, or they've been told, and I can hear this um far too often, where they have been given a role given the title and are actually doing the job, but they're not given the actual benefits of the role, they're not given that grade, they're not given that salary until they can demonstrate that they can do it, that they are confident in that role.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like that would rarely happen to a man.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: So often we have to look at okay, how are we gonna demonstrate that this is that you are doing this role?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's typical then, I suppose, if you're then trying to manage a team and you don't seem to have the authority, you know, to manage that team if you've not been given the job title.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if other people would necessarily know the kind of ins and outs of of that.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's more kind of the feedback that they've been given.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like, well, we're pretty much sure you can do it, but we're not sure because you know, sometimes you don't seem that confidence, so can you know, show us?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that creates an extra niggle, right?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's an extra level of pressure on top of everything else already, isn't it?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: How are you advising your clients?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think obviously it's like a whole life thing, isn't it?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: I know I'm just thinking my friend, she uh took a new role and it's a massive salary increase, it's a big promotion, like huge salary increase, big promotion.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: She's actually just um separated from her husband as well.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like there's a lot of going on, but it's like, how do you, if you're taking these big jobs, how you know, what advice would you give to people to support those jobs?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: I guess, you know, because I guess historically they've been probably men that have taken those jobs that have had a a wife at home.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I always think I feel sometimes I feel like I would love a wife.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, or to be cloned.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: I could cut if I could clone me, that would be wonderful.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think, I mean, first of all, congrats to your friends.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: That I mean, well, there's a lot going on in there, isn't there?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, brilliant role.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um the very first place I would start is to get very clear on what success looks like in that role.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, how is she defining success?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's a that's quite a broad area, and how is the organization, her line managers, the the leadership team, whoever, how are they defining success?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because then you can make sure that you are really prioritizing those things and you can think about how you are having your impact against those things.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, it's very hard, especially if you're going into a new organization, you're trying to learn everything, there is a danger, you try and start to do everything.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas if you're very clear on what success looks like in your in that role, then you can set about making that happen.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it just gives you a nice level of focus just to kind of get going.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think also early doors, think about how is it that you want to show up?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how is it that you want to lead?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: What is the impact that you want to have?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: How do you want to make those around you feel?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then you can you can use that to guide you as well, rather than kind of getting sucked into the noise of it all and straight into 10,000 different priorities.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Roller emails and things like that.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder, did you ever read Cheryl Sandberg's book?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Cling to LinkedIn, lean in.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I did, yes, yes, yes, yes.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder what you thought of that.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: I is I mean, it's an old book now, isn't it?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I don't know if it's aged well.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh no, I don't think it has.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think there is there is so many good things in there, you know, the notion of the the actual premise behind leaning in, and of course we should be doing that.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think the challenge was it just puts a lot of the onus on women uh when there are structural things that need to happen as well, and there is only so much that we can do ourselves as women.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um why do you think I suppose thinking back to that book?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like her I it was it was about 12 years ago I write this book, so you know my memory is quite hazy.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the premise was that women aren't basically taking their seat at the table.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I do remember a part of the book where she said that men would be at one end of the table and women perhaps talking at the other end um if you were in meetings.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, why you know I suppose we do need to be closer to those decision making, that decision making and who whoever is making that decision.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe what do you think's put women off maybe getting there historically, and how can we find because I know we were gonna talk all about courage today, how can we find the courage to speak up, I guess, and get close to those decisions.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: I guess but I guess a lot of the time women are at at that table now, like on the whole.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think sometimes we might it's over.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it it is there is a stat.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's eight percent of women, only eight percent of women find it easy to make their voices heard in the workplace.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: Why is that what do you mean just because they feel their voice isn't loud enough or because they're nervous about speaking up?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: All of everything, everything.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it could be that you know, the microaggressions that we experience, you know, women are interrupted more than men, three times more.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: So there is there is the the general bias that we're experiencing.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: There is sometimes, you know, we're we might be if we're not the we might not be the only woman at the table, but probably there is a there is a um a shift, there is potentially more men there.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: So our you know how I think when you sorry I've I've interrupted now, but you know, when you look at sometimes these, you know, you go on these companies and they go about and you see who works there, and it's the CEO's a man, you know, and the pet on the webpage the CFO is a man.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: You might get the marketing person might be a woman, always HR woman, but the people that are probably driving like the vision and the operational decisions, nine times out of ten on you know, especially like financial services, it's men.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly, exactly.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think sometimes as well, you know, we're we're second guessing what we might want to say, or um we're over we're overthinking it, or we've been interrupted, or you know, we just I think there is a lot of dynamics going on in terms of what of what's happening with that kind of with what's happening with that 8%.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: I've lunch it I was chatting to a client yesterday, and it you know, I don't want to make it a male female thing, but um she works in financial services and she was saying, you know, we were talking about this whole back to work five days a week that a lot of particularly banks are implementing.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, I don't think that's gonna have much impact, you know, from an outsider perspective on performance.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: These banks, a lot of them, you know, the economy hasn't been brilled, they're obviously nervous about finances, and they think that bringing people back in five days a week as opposed to maybe the three they've been doing is gonna impact that bottom line.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just wondering if there was more women at that is at that decision-making table.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Would those decisions be being made or more women that felt they could speak up?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly, because often, and again, it's it's shifting all the time, isn't it?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: But often, I remember when I was at Mondelee's the the women in senior positions weren't women like me.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: They'd made a dis their husband was staying at home or was taking the lead from more of a childcare point of view, and I think it's that's potentially what it's about.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Not necessarily the women you they did have very visible and very capable women in senior leadership positions, but they weren't women who were also trying to juggle the school run, and there was this sense of, well, you've got to make a choice.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: I always remember a boss once saying to me, We've got to pick which horse you're gonna back, and I'm like, Well, not really, and also if I'm gonna make a choice, then clearly I'm going to have to choose my children, like that's yeah, that doesn't make any sense.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think it's that being able to put in the systems and the structures that mean we're not having to choose between being a great mum, yeah, and realizing our professional ambitions.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Me, that's that's but it's it's so hard, isn't it?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: The I mean, even the schooling system, how that works, I mean, that's not set up for success anymore, is it?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we don't need six weeks in the summer holidays, and yeah, it's difficult, isn't it?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I I always remember pre-kids thinking, why do we need so many half terms?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Surely we don't need all of these half terms, they're every six weeks.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: But the kids are exhausted, aren't they?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: They genuinely need them.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: So if I'm thinking about my children, yeah, do you know what?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: They do need to be at home that week.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: They do need to do something that's you know, not more nurturing and their energy back because they're little.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think, yeah, obviously that is a different, you know, that is a whole topic, isn't it?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: But it isn't set up.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: But set up, wasn't it like you know, that system of a hundred years ago such such a long time ago.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I know we're gonna be talking about courage today because I know you post a lot about courage, and I thought that we couldn't um make it quite an actionable podcast.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um so what is courage?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I guess like from the basics, what is courage and how can we feel more courageous?
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the reason I talk about it quite a lot is because people will come to me and they will say, um, you know, I'm feeling out of my comfort zone at work, or um, I've been given the feedback that I don't have enough courage.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think courage is very sorry, confidence is very important at work, right?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: That confidence to put yourself forward for things, that confidence that you have in yourself, in your presence, in the impact that you have, all of that kind of stuff.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: But the thing with confidence is it's never really the start point.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to, if we were waiting to feel confident to do the thing, if I waited to feel confident before leaving my role and starting my business, then I would still be there for sure, right?
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because confidence is the output, the thing that gets you moving, the thing that you need is courage.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's the secret source.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: So courage is what gets you moving when you don't feel ready, right?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Courage is not knowing how something is going to turn out, but taking that action anyway.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Courage is asking for support when you need it, it's knowing how to support yourself.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: Courage is baby steps in the right direction, even when things feel hard.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it is trusting that you will be okay even when you don't know how it's all going to turn out.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I really like to think of courage as being this like this secret source.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: And what I found through coaching probably hundreds of women now is that many of my clients, you would look at them from the outside and they are confident, right?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I wish I had their confidence.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: But the vast majority don't necessarily feel confident, they certainly don't feel confident all the time, and I think despite you know, the the the job title, despite what they do as a role, despite the fact that they look like they have it all together, confident isn't generally a word most people use to describe themselves, but they know they are brave, right?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: So generally, we refuse.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: What I think, and I see this as like the golden thread that kind of runs through many successful women, is we refuse to get in our own way, right?
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Taking action anyway.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the key.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's why courage is important, because that is the thing that gets you moving, that is the thing that moves you through those self-doubts that gets you through those things, gets you to the things you want.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting because you said basically a phrase that I know you don't like.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: This like fake it till you make it.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and what about how do you feel about like the phrase feel the fear and do it anyway?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Is it that?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um so feel the fear and do it anyway is broadly right.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because of course we all feel that fear, right?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: We all have self-doubts about something, and we should do it anyway.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: The thing that I don't like about that phrase is it kind of implies this like recklessness to it of just, oh my god, just do it, right?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Step, you know, you've just got to, well, it doesn't matter what you're scared of, just do the thing.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that's quite right.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's if we could tweak it and say, uh, feel the fear and support yourself as you do it.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that I think is that I think is fine, but you've got to be able to support yourself through it.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: And don't it's just not this blind trust and or just this blind winging it, if you like.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: You have to support yourself through it.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: How do you support yourself through it then?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: As I'll be honest, I feel like I'm a winger, and then sometimes maybe it doesn't work out, and then I'll be trying to rope back.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like how do you support yourself through it?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I think so.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: So say you've got a doubt about something, yeah.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, let's use uh presenting as one, just because that's uh something that often comes up for me.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, and that's something I don't like to be honest, or public speaking.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: So many people don't, yeah.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's really common.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's isn't it something like I don't this won't be correct, but isn't it something like the number one fear after death or something in public speaking?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a very, it's a very real fear that people have.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: When I say support yourself through it, I mean okay, you know you're gonna have to do this presentation.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well rather than just going, oh god, okay, right, just just crack on, just get on and do it.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Ask yourself what do you need, and then give that to yourself.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: So courage will get you saying yes to that opportunity.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: Courage would get you, you know, up on that stage.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: But what is it that you need to make that doable?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: So using the presentation example, is it that you know that you need to invest time in the prep so that you feel really confident in what you're presenting?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Is it that you want to get a mentor who's brilliant at this so you feel really supported through it?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is it you want to make sure that you've got time for lots of run-throughs with trusted colleagues who are going to give you feedback?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe, maybe that's not what you're worried about.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you've had a bad experience with it in the past and you're worried that when you get up on stage you're gonna freeze.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in that case, what you might need is to learn some breath work techniques to be able to use those in the moment to manage your nerves and manage that stress.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: So when I say support yourself, is it's it's as simple as okay, this feels hard right now.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: What is it I need to make this feel more comfortable so I can do it?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: And if you say you had say you knew, I mean, that example of you know being asked to present up on stage is it it's quite uh it's quite a big example.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Say you knew, well, I'm just worried in general about presenting.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you could support yourself by, you know, first is there a training course?
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, then I'm gonna present in my team meeting, then I'm gonna present in a bigger functional meeting, and eventually that courage muscle grows.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's probably one of the really important things about courage, is it is a skill.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you're gonna want as with everything, you're gonna start small and build up that muscle.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: So small actions to get you moving, and that momentum builds.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it's almost like the uh the the just the courage to take the first step and then support yourself through it.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's really good advice.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: I like that, and I think it is just isn't it, those small little things.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: How do you find people find the courage to like ask for that promotion?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we your example of these people that maybe like on a try before you buy type thing with their employer, they may maybe doing it.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: And how is that that courage?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: How do you find the courage to say, no, either no, I'm not doing it like that?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: You basically pay me what I'm worth at the beginning, or if you are in finding that situation, to put a stop to it after a couple of months and say, you know, you're gonna pay me now, you know, and I guess that's a big conversation for a lot of people.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the first thing is um think about the why.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: So to do anything that's hard, you need to have that really strong why, otherwise it's just easier not to do it, isn't it?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right, regard regardless of what it is.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe it's just that that feels really unfair to you, or maybe you've got a fight, uh, I don't know, you want to move house, and therefore you want to lock in that the financial part of that promotion.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, whatever it is, doesn't matter what your why is, but know what it is, know what it is that's motivating you.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think reflect on it, you know, in in that example that that I was using, just be very clear on your strengths, be very clear on the value that you are bringing, the impact that you are having, tie that to the business results, and then use that as the as the basis for your discussion.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: And if I'd say if someone was put in the position where they're okay, you can have this role, but you can't have can't have all the benefits attached to it, which I um read recently is called dry promote dry promoting, which is horrendous term.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Do the role, I'll say I did a uh post on LinkedIn, I'll send it to you, dry promoting.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just be very clear on what it is they are expecting to see to then make sure that that is unlocked, because otherwise it just feels like it's one of you know, is taking advantage, doesn't it?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: But if they if they uh if you're having a conversation with your employer about an opportunity, okay, well, how will we know, you know, what does success success look like?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: How will you know that I'm doing a great job in that?
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: And how are we going to review it and get it very fact-based so that you can come back to it, you can have that open dialogue all the time.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, it's just it's just a free-for-all, isn't it?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden you're doing three jobs for the price of one.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then you can, and you know, you do hear some people that are doing a really seat.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I see it all the time, and I'm like, and you're getting paid how much?
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, and a lot of employers, if they can take advantage, not every employer, but if they can take advantage, yeah, exactly, exactly.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Then they will.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it is important actually to tie it back as also from a recruiter perspective to that value piece.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: And if you've got the facts in front of you and you say, I've done this for the business that's translated into X, then it's so much harder for them.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's an important part of courage as well.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just to just to kind of tie it back.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you know your strengths, when you know when you're at your brilliant best, it is much easier to be brave.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: You're almost using those as a springboard to kind of go from, and I think everybody needs to know their strengths, and it's amazing how many people can't articulate them.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think to be honest, I think that was a whole podcast episode.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I think it is, isn't it?
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's like working in your zone of genius, you feel good.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then that gives you that gives you that, you know, that it makes it so much easier to give yourself that little nudge to go, no, I see I'll put myself forward for that.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: How do you know you so you yeah, a lot of people don't know their strengths?
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: How do you know so this just I have no idea?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: How would you find out what your strengths are?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: So um Um, so there's I always like to start with reflecting myself.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I know that there are various um strength-based tools out there that you can use.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if your organization has access to them, great, go for it.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: But always start with the reflection yourself.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Just think about what are you good at?
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think often when we're under pressure to talk about what we're good at, then there comes a whole lot of noise in well, but what if I'm not actually good at that?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: What if that person doesn't think I'm good at it?
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: But don't worry about that bit.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: Just to wait, if you just think about yourself, what are you good at?
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: What do you like doing?
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: What gives you energy?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because generally we're good at the stuff that we we like doing.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: So start there, start think about the stuff.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: So when you think about a strength, is what you are good at and you like doing.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: So those two things need to happen at the same time.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you can also then ask um some trusted people, colleagues, um, or people who know you well enough, what are those things that you are brilliant at?
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Get their input as well, and you can just kind of see the themes that are coming through.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing I like to do, um, particularly if it feels really hard, is at the end of each week, note down, big or small, it doesn't matter, but note down three things from the week that you did really well.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: And they don't have to be output-based, it could be that you navigated a conversation brilliantly.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's so it doesn't need to be, you know, I landed this big account and it delivered this much for the business.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't mean that kind of thing because that's um they probably aren't weekly events.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but just note down those things each week that you did really well and just keep track of those and you will soon start to see the themes, but you've got to carve out that time to reflect.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to carve out the time to notice.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: So if someone's listened to this, remind us who you work with and how you help them.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I work um predominantly with women in leadership, um, usually in commercial functions, um, marketing, sales, finance, all of those kind of things.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I do two things.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: I do uh more uh career coaching, which is women like you and I who have climbed the ladder, got to a certain place, and how they they don't necessarily feel how they thought they would, and they want to make a change of some kind, and that could be reimagining their current role, it could be making a pivot, it could be accelerating their career within their organization.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then I also work um within organizations on more leadership coaching, and again, that can be that's it's all very bespoke.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: So um I do a lot um in the area of confidence, um, a lot about helping people define their leadership style and their impact, um, a lot in terms of communication and influencing, all of everything connected to how you have the impact and the results that you want at work.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: So those are the two broad things I do.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: So if someone's listening to this and they want to make a bigger impact, then Jen is definitely your person.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your girl.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: So how can people find you connect to you?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: I've obviously mentioned LinkedIn, um, which um definitely follow Jen on LinkedIn wherever you are in your career because I think you'll get a lot of inspiration.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, so I primarily hang out over on LinkedIn, um, and you can I've also uh got a website, jennifersperred.co.uk.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we'll put all the links in the show notes.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for joining us today.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: And don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willet and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: You can also follow my recruitment site, Investing in Women, on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dream.