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The Ballet Competition Experience · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at a dance competition?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: This is Making the Impact, a dance competition podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: Ballet competitions might feel like a foreign land when compared to the competitive dance scene that many of us inhabit.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: But after today's episode, you're going to find out that the two worlds are more similar than you may have thought.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: Join us as we dip our toes into the ballet competition world with two incredible guests with decades of experience in the field.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: Hey listeners, it's Courtney Ortiz.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to this week's episode of Making the Impact.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm here with my co-host, Leslie Mueller.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_03: Hey Courtney, how are you doing today?
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: I'm good.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: How are you doing?
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: Doing alright, hanging in there, just excited to uh talk some ballet competitions today.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, this is uh gonna be a a different uh episode for us because yes, we are a dance competition podcast.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: And yes, there are so many different types of competitions out there, but one that is kind of gaining a lot of momentum, especially even in the studio space, which is a little shocking, are ballet competitions.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of studio dancers, jazz dancers, contemporary dancers, dancer dance studios who have never attended a ballet competition, all of a sudden are now signing up for those ballet competitions and want to be a part of that world as well.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: So we figured it's time for us to cover it on making the impact.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_03: It is.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: And the one of the interesting things about this episode for us too is that we, you and I didn't go to those, we didn't go to the ballet competitions.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, I'm not very well versed in them.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: I know who what they are and you know the ones that exist, but I'm I'm a little bit in the dark.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm excited for both of our guests today to share a little bit more about how they're different from your run of the mill dance competition, why, why it's kind of having a an interest surge from dancers who maybe have never been to that type of competition before.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm ready to learn.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, actually, I don't know if you know this, but my studio growing up, Mid-Atlantic Center for the Performing Arts, which is still out there and still exists, and they are training stunning, beautiful, classical concert pre-professional dancers.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: Towards the end of my time at that studio, they started dabbling in ballet competitions.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I obviously was the jazz girl.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I didn't take five days a week ballet.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: I took the minimum requirement.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: But I was actually a part of the ensemble that went to uh Youth American Grand Prix way back in the day.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I did go to New York and participate in that, but only as an ensemble dancer, not as a soloist.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I know.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I feel like, and we'll get to this probably, but like whenever I hear about ballet competitions, I'm not hearing about even that there is an ensemble competition.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: It always feels like soloists because that's what's put out on social media and that's what you think about, you know, when you go, because you can go, I think independently.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um but we'll find out more.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: But no, I had no idea.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's crazy.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: I don't even know if they like you said, I have no idea if they still do that, you know, the ensemble portion of the event, but maybe they do.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: And let's learn all about that on today's and this week's episode.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_03: But before we jump in, of course, like always, we have to hear from our fabulous sponsors.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_03: Hey parents, does your dancer want to have a career in dance post-high school graduation?
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_03: Are you already stressed out about the upcoming college application process?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_03: Should your dancer get a BFA in dance or pursue a degree in another field?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: You can have all of these questions answered by attending an upcoming virtual college prep workshop with Francisco Gulla Danceworks.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: Let them help you and your dancer discover the best school options and programs that will check off all of the boxes in your desired college experience.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_03: Upcoming workshops include creating your artistic portfolio on October 20th and Collegiate Alumni Panel on October 27th.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_03: These sessions are ideal for seniors and any dancer wanting to prepare early.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_03: Parents are encouraged to attend, and one-on-one consultations are available to help navigate the college dance process.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_03: Visit Franciscogeladance.com for more information and register using our exclusive podcast promo code MAKINGTHEIMPAT in all caps for$75 off.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_03: Young Arts is an organization that supports artists across 10 different disciplines, including dance.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_03: Their national arts competition is open to artists ages 15 to 18 or currently in grades 10 through 12, where selected winners can receive cash awards, mentorship from leaders in the industry, a lifetime of professional support, and the prestigious honor of being a young arts winner.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: Competition finalists in their senior year are further eligible for nomination as a U.S.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: Presidential Scholar in the Arts, one of the nation's highest honors for high school students.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: As a previous Young Arts winner myself, I highly recommend that you check out this fantastic program and opportunity for your dancers.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: It truly is life-changing.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: The deadline to apply for their 2025 National Arts Competition is October 17th, 2024.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_03: Mark your calendars and learn more about Young Arts now.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_03: To start your application today, click the link in our show notes or head to their website at youngarts.org slash apply.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_03: Alright, Dance World, we are covering a fun new topic today, and it's all about ballet competitions.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: They have blown up into the dance competition space.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: As we know, there's so many dance studio competitions out there, over 150, close to 200 standard studio comps that exist, plus dance conventions that are out there that are a little bit more on the commercial side of things.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: But what about the classical and concert training that exists in our beautiful dance world?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: What if you want and aspire to be a professional ballet dancer one day?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_03: There are ballet competitions that are designed for you.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of studio dancers are now participating in those ballet competitions.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: So we wanted to bridge the gap over here at Making the Impact and bring a little bit more knowledge to all of our listeners out there about what it takes to participate in a ballet competition.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_03: And we have two brand new guests joining us this week on the podcast.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: The very first guest I'm excited to welcome is someone who I just recently met at the Dance Mom's premiere.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_03: And she's a close friend with my friend Tati as well.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_03: And wow, y'all need to get into her Instagram because she is posting the best content and on TikTok as well.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: And she is an absolutely stunning professional ballet dancer.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_03: I'm excited to welcome Alicia May Holloway to the podcast.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, welcome.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: I love that intro.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm super excited to talk about this with you guys.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yay! I'm so happy that you could be here.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I know that you uh grew up also competing in the ballet competition world as well as now being on the other side of the table and judging for the ballet competition.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: So you have a lot of experience to bring to this chat.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I knew you'd be the perfect guest.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so excited.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: Well, if you wouldn't mind sharing with the world a little bit more about you, where you grew up, your early dance training, any uh professional career credits, and then also what you're currently working on.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I grew up in a very small town, Morgantown, West Virginia.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Most people don't even know West Virginia is even a state.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we I was fortunate enough to have great teachers growing up.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: But when I was about 11 years old, I switched studios.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: I was at mainly a competition studio, and then I actually saw Pittsburgh Ballet Theater do the nutcracker.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I told my parents, I said, Mom and Dad, that's what I want to do.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then I decided to switch dance studios when I was 11 to a more ballet-focused uh school.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then I ended up getting a scholarship to attend the University of North Carolina School of the Arts, where I ended up going my freshman year of high school.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then that summer I attended the School of American Ballet, got a scholarship to attend the year-round program.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: So in 2011, my sophomore year of high school, I ended up moving here to New York City to attend SAB, was there for four years.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then I got a job dancing with the Suzanne Farrell ballet company, um, where I danced with her for one season.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then I also joined the Dance Theater of Harlem that same year.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: And the Suzanne Farrell season was like two months at the Kennedy Center.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was super short.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I actually got to join Dance Theater of Harlem, learn the rep in a month, learn like seven different ballets in a month.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: It was a very stressful time in life.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um but then I learned I learned all the rap.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was able to go to the Kennedy Center and perform with Suzanne.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then I came back to Dance Theater of Harlem, where I danced for seven seasons.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then I left about three years ago to do more modeling, acting, Broadway kind of world.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, this time last year, I started performing with Josh Burgas, doing the Sugar Hill Ellington Strayhorn Nutcracker.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: That lasted for about four to five months, and it was such a wonderful experience.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I got to play the role of Lena, which, you know, in the traditional nutcracker, it's Clara.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I never was Claire growing up.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it was super cool.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: But now I'm I'm trying to enter the Broadway realm.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I recently performed at the Lucio Lortail Awards doing the show Contact Susan Strowman's Contact, which was really wonderful.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I've gotten the chance to work with Aretha Franklin, Smokey Robinson, Gladys Knight, Alicia Keys.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so getting to do a lot in the dance world has been, you know, not to be corny, but really a dream come true.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_03: And you are doing it, girl.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: You are doing it.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_03: You are making your dreams a reality.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: That is so exciting to hear.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_03: And also to hear that if you do want to pursue ballet, that it's not the only path.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: You can go in many different avenues of this dance world and look at you now.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_03: You're pursuing more of a commercial and Broadway career.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_03: So we are excited to welcome our next special guest as well, who is joining us.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_03: I'm meeting him for the very first time, and I have been a longtime fan of all of the education that he is bringing into the ballet community.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_03: He is the director and president of the Rock School for Dance Education in Philadelphia.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_03: I'm excited to welcome Peter Stark to the podcast.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome, Peter.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Courtney, and thank you, Leslie.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it's great to see you, Alicia.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really wonderful to be here.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: I know you're super busy, so thank you for squeezing us into your schedule.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: I know you probably just finished teaching a ballet class.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_03: So glad that you're here on the pod.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: And actually coaching for competition right before Lucy.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, well, timing.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_03: Couldn't be better timing.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_03: So uh Peter, same same kind of deal.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_03: If you could share with the world a little more about you.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh when you get old, you try to encapsulate very, very briefly because otherwise the whole podcast would would be my life story of this game, which I suppose is good.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I trained at the School of American Ballet for eight years.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: I joined New York City Ballet, and then I went on to dance with Boston Ballet and Washington Ballet, then became a guest artist.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Worked a lot with Plaza Domingo and his wife Marta, and did some uh PBS broadcasts with Washington Opera as a lead dancer.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: I also did a Suzanne Farrell project in the middle of all that because there was a moment where Washington Ballet was partnered.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: But that was, I would say, the first half of my uh professional career.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: The second half has been as a school director.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: I actually, when I was dancing for Washington Ballet, I started mentoring as a teacher under Mary Day, who is the founder of the Washington Ballet School, uh teaching a boys' class and then some adult classes.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then I was going to college at the same time, and I was very fortunate that one of my coaches and mentors, Fernando Bahones, who by the way was the first American to ever win the uh Varna International Ballet Competition, um, hired me as a school director at Orlando Ballet.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I went right into being a school director.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was the director there.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: I grew the budget fivefold, added three uh satellite locations, one of whom was with the Champe Bebe Performing Art Center, which is now the Strats Performing Arts Center, and then I founded Next Generation Ballet.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: I was the founding artistic director.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: They're still in existence.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: My good friend Philip Neal runs that organization.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then from there I went to Boston Ballet, where I was the um director of Boston Ballet 2 and the head of the men's program, and in now into my current job uh leading the rock school.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh, you've done it all again, like yes, truly icon legend.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh, your contribution to the dance education space for for ballet in particular is so huge and so impactful.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm so grateful for you to be here and to share your knowledge on ballet competitions and from coaching to judging to uh preparing your all of your students for them.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you for being here.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: My pleasure.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: All right, let's jump into this ballet chat.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: Let's jump into it.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, first, what I did want to mention, because we've had a recent loss in the dance world and the ballet world in particular, and I know that this dancer was a student at uh the rock school, Michaela DePrince, um, recently passed away.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: So we just wanted to make sure we had a small tribute to her um and her impact in her very short life.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um and if either one of you had any anything you'd like to say, we'd love to start with that.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: I have a feeling we both have something to say from different perspectives.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I I worked and and I knew Michaela, I was a judge when she was a student, but I worked with her in Boston Ballet for two years before I came into my current position.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: And she reverted to her African name, which is Mabinti.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I referred to her as Ma Binti, which is how she went more recently.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: And Mabinti was an amazing woman and a consummate professional, was completely dedicated to the art of classical ballet and had a story that resonated worldwide.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: And uh most recently the New York Times did an obituary on her, and the New York Times is incredibly selective on the on any individual worldwide.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um but to see a ballerina, you know, who was born in the Sierra Leone, uh watched her parents being murdered in a war zone and then succeed in this field against odds, really was just such an inspirational story for so many, particularly black and brown dancers.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the the enormity of the tragedy, you know, anybody young dying, it's it's horrible.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: But the fact that so many people looked up to her.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I will also say that it's I'm struggling with this personally because uh I'm delighted that Mabinti is getting this attention, but it also really puts a spotlight on what's missing in classical dance, uh, which is greater diversity of uh race, ethnicity, uh body type, uh, stories.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I hope that this is one of those bellwether moments where the field says, enough, let's change.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: And certainly Mabinti did everything to make that happen.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I'm delighted that she's getting the attention, but it's it's sad on so many levels.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well said.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Mabinti for me was you know, back when she uh went by Michaela DuPrince, she was just like an icon, like just growing up, you know, she's only several years older than me.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I I looked up to her so much.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: And because I competed, you know, in YAGP and competitions as well, um, she was just kind of like my, like an idol in a way, you know, like there was Misty for me, and then there was Michaela.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll never forget the first time I met her because she did dance uh at Dance Theater of Harlem, uh, but we weren't there at the same time.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: I joined, I believe two years, a year or two after, I think two years after she uh after she left.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I remember we all went out, you know, to a restaurant after rehearsal one day.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then nobody had told me that Mabinti would be there.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember I went to the restroom and I came back and I looked and I saw her.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm pretty sure like my jaw was literally on the floor.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was like, oh my God, you know, I I had never ever met her.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember sitting down, I was really nervous.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't, I'm not shy and I don't get nervous, but I was like just like staring at her and and just in awe of like what she had to say.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then we started chatting, and you know, I had shared with her that I'm adopted as well.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: And we just chatted about that and you know, also about being, you know, a black and brown girls in ballet and the struggles that come with that, um, and how little of us there are.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, she is a pioneer and she's somebody who I think every little girl should look up to.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: So to hear, you know, the news when I heard that that she had passed, I was devastated.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, what we can do is to continue to carry on her legacy.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm so happy, like Peter said, that, you know, the Times is is sharing her story.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that so many people now are sharing her story, which I just think is is so wonderful.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, it's heartbreaking.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think, you know, if we can continue to share her story, um her legacy will live on forever as it should.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I definitely agree.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you both for sharing that and may her memory be a blessing.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: What a legacy she has and what an impact.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_03: She made an impact on our dance world.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what we're all about over here at making the impact.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_03: So we honor and tribute to her.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for sharing.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_03: And let's jump into this chat on ballet competitions.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: And first, just to kick it off, we've kind of threw out a few names here and there of some ballet competitions, but let's let some of the people know what ballet competitions exist out there in this beautiful dance world that young dancers can participate in.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'll I'll uh since I'll I'll go into a little bit of the history of it and then Alisha, I can pass it off to you.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: When I was training at the School of American Ballet, no dancers did ballet competitions.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: And actually there are there are schools like School of American Ballet, national uh uh Canada's National Ballet School, Royal Ballet in England, those students are not permitted to compete.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: The focus is on training towards your goal and not competing.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um many of those organizations recruit from competitions, but their students go don't go back into them.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: And there were really just two competitions um when I was young, which was the Varna International Ballet Competition and then the Pride de Lausanne.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: And the Pride de Lausanne existed very much as it does now.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's incredibly selective.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: They look at hundreds to thousands of video applicants and they select 60.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Those 60 are brought to Lausanne, Switzerland, and then in the course of the week, they are assessed through uh both performance and classwork, and with an equal focus on contemporary and classical.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that they've done, uh particularly with the contemporary, is they they've codified, they they give you a selection of three or four different solos.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: So all of the dancers are dancing the same contemporary solo, um, which really equalizes the playing field because sometimes you can have great choreography with a mediocre dancer, vice versa, and you know, the choreography can can push you forward or back or hold you back.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: So Lausanne, you know, in terms of student competitions, was the first and was always very prestigious because they brought in all of the school directors from around the world to offer scholarships.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: So even if you did not win the Prix de Lausanne, or even if you were not a finalist, if you made it to Switzerland, you could be selected and offered a scholarship to a school.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a networking opportunity.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then Varna was like the Olympics of Dance, which occurred once every four years.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: That competition expanded to include Moscow, Helsinki, and Jackson, uh, Mississippi.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: So now it's it's most years.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, although Varna has now folded, they lost funding.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, we don't do Moscow anymore because of the war in Ukraine.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: So now the the those international competitions are really focused just in Helsinki and Jackson.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it's sort of every other year.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then in 1999, Larissa Savelyev had a brilliant idea to expand the model of what Prida Lausanne had set and to democratize it.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: And she created Youth America Grand Prix.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: And the way it was democratized is that there was no pre-selection, there was no video.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: They would go into a local community and anybody could sign up.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: You could have six months of training, you could have 15 years of training.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then through that, move students from regional events to a final event.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: In the beginning, the big thing that really made YAGP move forward quickly is the top prize was an ABT2 contract.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: So when you won Youth America Grand Prix, I would say the first not quite 10 years, but close to 10 years, you you actually won a contract to ABT 2.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that was a big prize.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember when that went away, there was a lot of discussion.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: Will the competition, you know, continue to be as robust as it was?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, of course it just keeps going in one direction.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: But when ABT signed on, then you had uh Royal Ballet School, Sean Kranko School in Germany, and and Canada's National Ballet School, the Rock School, jump in and say, Hey, we'll offer a scholarship too.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then it became again a networking opportunity.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: So really the bigger prizes were not Grand Prix, you know, first place, second place, third place.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: The bigger prize was, hey, I got a$30,000 scholarship to the rock school, or I got a$50,000 scholarship to Royal Ballet School in England.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: And those were transformative moments for dancers.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because of the success of Youth America Grand Prix, you now have a lot of other, and I'll pass it off to Alicia to speak about.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, she can certainly comment on anything, but now you have a lot, you have a lot of other similar competitions that are also doing a very good work, taking people from regional to finals and then trying to connect them with different schools internationally.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's so cool to hear about you know all the history, because a lot of those things I didn't know.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I think for me, you know, I always think of dance competitions.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: There's like kind of what I classify as like the commercial dance competition versus the ballet competition.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: And as somebody who grew up doing, you know, more competitions in the commercial world.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's a different culture.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the biggest difference for me is kind of like what Peter said like, you know, in the commercial dance world, it's like, yeah, you win first, second, and third place, or you win gold or plat, whatever it is.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: And some of those, you know, commercial dance competitions have connections to, you know, scholarships at certain schools, et cetera, that focus more so on like jazz, theater, um, hip-hop, et cetera.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: But what I love about ballet dance competitions like YAGP, like UBC, like World Ballet Competition, like Pre de Lusanne, et cetera, it's more of a connection to schools.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's almost like I I hesitate to say the word better, but better for your career in a sense that, you know, you get a gold trophy that just sits on your shelf at home versus you get an opportunity to further your career, you know, a scholarship that can literally, quite literally change, you know, your dance path and trajectory as a dancer.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_03: That is, I think that is what is so huge about it.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like I remember um briefly, you know, when YGP came about, that that was the whole point of going to the finals was to essentially be scouted almost.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: And it was a platform, it feels like a platform for all of these different companies to see this fresh new batch of young talent coming up.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_03: That, you know, as we know in the ballet world, some people have very long careers, but not everyone.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's a short-lived career, and you want to kind of break into that as young as possible.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_03: So those 16, 17, 18-year-old dancers that are coming up for all of these companies to then see their talent and essentially scout for, they're getting handed opportunities and job opportunities.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_03: And that's, I think, what everyone wants out of the commercial competition space, but it's so saturated now that it's just not possible.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: And like, if anything, you're gonna make a few connections here and there at a dance convention, out of this, but like, are you actually getting handed potential job opportunities?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: Contracts and a contract or a scholarship that's going to take you to the next level.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, some are doing that, but not all of them.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: So I I think that's what's really prestigious about the ballet uh competition world.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: We had a student last year who was in the finals at Youth America Grand Prix, did not win, actually did not dance well.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: She stumbled a little in her variation, but was scouted by the director of Finnish National Ballet, which wasn't even on her list of possibilities.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: And anyway, flash forward, she got a job there.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so after because of that, they said we'd like to do a Zoom class, and they wanted to watch her variation again on Zoom and had her learn choreography on Zoom, and then from that they hired her.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: So now she's dancing with Finnish National Ballet.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: And again, the other thing that when I was young, there weren't a lot of Americans dancing in Europe, and because of these competitions, Europe is saturated with Americans.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: There was always foreigners coming to America because of really what Balanchine and Graham and all these, you know, the the center of dance creation in the 20th century was largely here in America.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's certainly not that it's it's diversified worldwide now.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: But a lot of dancers did move here, but not a lot of Americans.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like I never thought when I was young of of of even dancing in Europe, which wasn't even in like the realm of possibilities.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: I only thought about American companies.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um and now, you know, it's it's opened up a worldwide market for these and and as you said, for for jobs, not just scholarships, but both.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's awesome.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: So you said, Peter, that there's there was something about something you said about the um the variations, not variations, the choreography you can learn and the contemporary category at one of the competitions.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: So can you speak a little bit to that and like how are they choosing which choreography to use?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, with ballet variations, the history of that is long and varied.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we all have seen the bluebird and the capellia and everything else.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: But contemporary, that is very interesting.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I think our our listeners would be very interested to hear like how that gets selected and how that really does level the playing field a little bit more.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: And with that, while you're answering both of you, can you also share how ballet variations get selected?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: Is there a list that is there only certain ones that you can utilize?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_03: I want to learn about that as well.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: But tell us all the things.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_03: This event is open to all dancers and artists in the ages of 1580, fourth grade and winners have the opportunity to access the guidelines and earn the estate title of being a young arts winner.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: Seniors who are finalists may also be nominated as a U.S.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: Presidential Scholar in the Arts.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_03: Prestigious honor for high school students.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_03: As a past young arts winner, I highly encourage all aspiring dancers to enter into this fantastic program, as it can truly be life-changing and help jumpstart your future in dance.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: The deadline for the 2025 National Arts Competition is October 17th, 2024.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: Mark your calendars and apply now.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_03: Head to their website to learn more at youngarts.org slash apply.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, one of the things that that we are now dealing with is copyright.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you saw that with video games, choreography, and things like that.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: So the the long and short of it is if somebody died more than 75 years ago, if they created something artistic, it becomes public domain.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: It used to be 50 and it moved to 75 when it was more than 50 years after Walt Disney died.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it was, of course, Disney Corporation that pushed it to 75.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: When it's 75 years post-Disney, by the way, you're gonna see Disney merchandise that anybody can buy anywhere.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: So the ballets we dance are basically more than 75 years old, and they they usually go uh from the romantic to the classical era of dance, which is from 1850 to about 1920, um, which incorporates predominantly Bourneville and Petapa, but San Leon and some others in there.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: You'll notice there's no balancing or grammar because though that's copyrighted material, so you cannot do that.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the big problem, bringing it back to uh contemporary, because number one, you have to have an original piece of choreography, which requires then the time in the studio and paying a choreographer, and those fees can run from 300 to$1,500 for that.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's music rights, because music similarly follows you know that that same rule that I I discussed.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to be very careful about the music that's being selected.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: You will notice many competitions will live stream the ballet portion of their competition and will not live stream the contemporary portion because the music, the music right, even if the choreographer has said I give permission, they don't necessarily have the right to the music, and those competitions could be sued by the uh the music publishers.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's complicated.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: I once asked a mentor of mine, Bruce Marks, who for years was the uh chair of the Jackson International Ballet Competition.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: He he was the one that built the Boston Ballet building and um it was the director of Boston Ballet, director of ballet wise, and I said, Bruce, what do we do when we're taking a a dancer to competition for for the contemporary category?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: I said, What does that mean?
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: He said, It means it's anything that's not uh strictly ballet.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: So it's anything, it's tap, it's it's modern, it's jazz, um, and so it's very, very loose.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Usually there is just a time constraint on there.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's why the pre de Lausanne system is actually, I think, a good one where you're giving, like, here's choreography, here's music, and you have to learn these, and they're all sort of judge the same.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: And as I mentioned earlier, there's been great choreography that's done by a mediocre dancer, and then there's a phenomenal dancer that doesn't have good choreography, and it could really affect how a dancer places it in contemporary.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's still a very slippery area, and I don't think as a field, we've fully solved how best to approach it.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I I completely agree.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I was actually chatting with a colleague of mine.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: We actually judge another dance competition together, and we were talking about the definition of the word contemporary.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's of the time.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's pretty vague.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that literally can mean anything.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like Peter was saying, it could be tab, it could be modern, it could be, it could literally be anything.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it definitely makes it hard on how to judge that dancer, you know.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I think another thing that's really tricky, specifically with contemporary, is technique versus tricks.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that, you know, you like dancers want to showcase what they're strong at.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: And if there's a really flexible and strong dancer, they're gonna want to do a lot of legs.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: And but then suddenly, depending on the choreographer, the entire solo can be, you know, just become a lot of legs here and there and everywhere.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: Or if a dancer's good at turns, the entire thing's turns.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: If they're good at jumps, the entire thing is jumps.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's a struggle kind of trying to find an even playing field for everybody.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's why, again, like Peter mentioned, like the pretty lesson is wonderful because it's the same choreography for everybody.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then you could watch how the dancer ex how each dancer executes the choreography in their own way and interpret it and dance it their own way.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's so interesting that you know, you guys are talking about the world of ballet competitions, but contemporary within the ballet competition world.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then where Courtney and I come from and where we judge, and you know, often we're looking at contemporary in the commercial dance uh competition world.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: And it sounds like you guys have the same struggles that game issues.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: Literally, this and I was not expecting that.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: I was thinking there'd be some very clear difference.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so you're telling me that like, have you ever seen a tap dance at the Youth America Grand Prix in the contemporary category?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Irish tap dancing.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen Irish step dancing.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I forgot.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_03: But I was I'm blown away.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: Indian, I've seen Indian dance.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: So that's cool.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: Clarifying about like the the qualifications and what is expected when entering into the competition.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: Do you have to do a classical variation and a contemporary, or can you just compete in contemporary and no classical variation, or can you just do a classical and no contemporary?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_03: Are there rules?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: How does that work?
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: I know, I know back I competed in YGP when I was like like I think in 2010, 2010.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I just did Lilac Ferry, but you know, that was however many years ago.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I did, I do remember having the ability to just compete a classical variation.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: I did not want to compete a contemporary um variation.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I don't actually don't know how it is now.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: I believe it's the same, but I could be wrong.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: No, so it in uh at YAGP, I will say full disclosure is the only competition that I involve myself in personally.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and I have been involved with them um since the second year um as a coach and as a judge.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm I'm partial to them because I work with them a lot.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: The way it works for a regional, you can compete in either, but to pass to the final, you only pass on your classical solo.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh so even if you don't compete a contemporary or if you do both, um you can win first place, by the way, as a contemporary dancer, not pass to the final.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: You only pass on your classical.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then when in the finals, you are required to do both.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: So once you are in the final round, you do need to do, um, it's usually three rounds.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: You do a classical solo, you do a contemporary solo, there's a big cut, and then you do the same or a different classical solo again for the third round.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_03: Now, continuing on with this whole contemporary discussion, because obviously it's a big part of the ballet competition, you know, there's obviously the ballet portion where, and I I have more questions on that as well, but specifically about the contemporary, are there now that we know that that you might see it's a grab bag of who knows what you're what's gonna pop out on that stage when you see contemporary at these ballet competitions?
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: But is there something that you as a judge specifically want to see?
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_03: Is there some kind of guide that we can give the studios out there to maybe structure it like this?
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: Like, do you want to see dancers on point doing contemporary ballet?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_03: Or would you rather see them do more grounded, modern dance movement that is in bare feet?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like, is there a preferred style of contemporary that you gravitate towards that you want to see more of and less of the tricks that you might be seeing?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: I can start this one off.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think for me personally, I when it comes to contemporary, I don't care if the dancer is in a point shoe or or you know, barefoot.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: I just care more so about their movement quality and about how they're executing the movement, about their technique.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think in classical ballet, you know, it's it's like like we can see in Airbus, we see the technique very clearly in what they're doing.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I think musicality, there's a chance in contemporary to see more musicality, to see if they're grounded.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I would much rather see that than a thousand pirouettes or a thousand jumps or side aerial back to, you know, whatever.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think just the movement quality and also how they're emoting and how they're they're truly performing.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because again, you know, we're talking about how in these ballet competitions there are professional company directors watching them.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen it, you know, with people I know.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen it with some of my students.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: They're beautiful, you know, in in ballet and in classical ballet, but in classical ballet, you don't necessarily have to emote the same way as though you're telling a story in a, you know, said contemporary piece.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think for me personally, I'm more interested in seeing how they're emoting and telling a story while obviously still keeping the technique.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: But that's what I personally um admire and look for when I'm judging contemporary.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, to dovetail on Alicia, I would say that you use the word emoting artistry, and that doesn't mean you're smiling the whole time.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean you're like, you know, credible, you're credibly experiencing some kind of angst.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: Interestingly, I find a lot of young people pick these sort of angst-written solos, and and I just personally I'm not into it because I feel like a 15-year-old should be happy.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: Not a hundred percent, but but I would say, you know, if you watch a hundred solos, 85 of them are gonna be sad driven.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's nice to see something that's joyous.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but regardless, you want it to be honest, an honest sense of artistry.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: I would agree, you've said all these things, Lish, I agree with you.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: Anchored weight that you because ballet is very up, so you want to see can the dancer feel their weight down into the floor.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, I prefer off point, although I have seen some outstanding point contemporary pieces.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: That being said, I would say most point contemporary pieces I don't like.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: I you know, there's a there's always there's always an Edith PF and there's always a tango.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: There's always a tango and and I've actually seen good tangoes and I've seen good Edith PFs, but I've seen more bad ones, to be perfectly honest.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: And the tango thing is often on point and with a chair sometimes.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: But it's you know, they it again it pulls the dancer up and it's nice to see can they be grounded.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: I also like to see a sense of breath.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: I was involved in triotonics with Julio Horbath when he was inventing those machines.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: I was called White Cloud Studio at the time, but really transformed my life.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: This the the because the Julio was a was a Romanian ballet dancer who then became a yogi and then created those machines with the circles.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so much of it is based on breath.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like dancers tend to hold a lot.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: So when you see a ballet dancer use their breath and use their weight, it it's noticeable to me.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then full body movement, that they're not just you know moving an arm, but you're s in ballet, you know, it's can be very sort of square.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it's nice to see in contemporary that if an arm moves, that it's coming from the back.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: If the leg moves, it's coming from the stomach, that you're feeling the whole body in motion.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I will say then, just to pull back the lens even further, you know, we are especially at Youth America Grand Prix, looking for potential.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: So there are sometimes dancers.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: I remember a dancer, David Donnelly, he he's a he's in, I think he's a soloist now with Royal Ballet in England.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: He wasn't my student, but he did love, he did um a grandpa classique.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-da-dum bum bum and three times he put his hands to the floor in the last diagonal, like boom's on the floor, boom, on the floor.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: But we were all enamored.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't matter that he put you because you could see the talent of this young man and and and what you know what incredible potential he had.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, he had like a bad run.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't win.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't matter.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody was interested in him for scholarships, and of course, now he's a solo royal ballet.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: So you are looking for potential, and that's like maybe also a difference with some other kinds of competition, and certainly with like Olympic competition, having just come off the summer Olympics.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: There is a first place and there's a reason they jumped the furthest or the highest or whatever.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: They, you know, they did a more difficult routine in ballet.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: There's that X factor of like, okay, you know, they're a hot mess, but that's a dancer.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: I can say there's something there.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that that that is compelling and um interesting.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: So listeners, so we just had the It Factor episode released recently.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: So the It Factor exists in the ballet world too.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: And also I I'm my my heart is so happy that like ballet people, they're just like us.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like we it it's not that different.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's really not, and that is like wonderful to hear.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I have another question, and this is actually one that kind of popped up recently in our Facebook community.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I'd love to hear your perspectives on this.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_03: Let's talk about point for a quick hot second because obviously you will be seeing a lot of point at a ballet competition.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_03: But how young is too young to see point on stage at a ballet competition?
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like that these dancers in this generation are progressing so quickly and are becoming high advanced level dancers so fast that maybe they're pushing those boundaries a bit before those building blocks have happened when it comes to their training and the natural progress, especially when it comes to something like getting onto point and working in point shoes.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_03: So, are there any rules at the competition as to how how old you have to be to be able to have point shoes on in your classical solo?
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_03: Are there not?
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_03: Have you seen dancers eight, nine years old competing in point at these competitions?
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, what do you prefer to see?
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'd love to know more about point.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I'll speak to it in the sense of, you know, I think a lot of studio owners or teachers think that the younger the dancer, the more impressive it is to see a point shoe on the dancer.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: And to me, that's just absolutely wild because, you know, the reason that dancers typically around, you know, 10, 11, 12, that's when they go on point and not when they're five, six years old is because that's when your feet are done, like they're still developing and growing, et cetera.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so to me, it's dangerous to put a child who is not ready.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is just common sense, but it's it's dangerous.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's not just uh, are you gonna win or are you not gonna win?
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually dangerous for the child to be put on point too soon.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: But to me personally, I would much, much, much rather see a younger kid, you know, eight to 10, 11 years old in a flat shoe, executing the movement properly, executing a variation with turnout, you know, because I I mean, I didn't go on point until I was 11.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what I've seen in competitions is kids will just get thrown in a point shoe and they're not, they don't even know how to get on the box.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just sitting there, you know, clenching my pearls the entire time, hoping that this kid doesn't break their ankle.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that I am just, I say this all the time: quality over quantity, and not that point is a quantitative thing, but I would just much rather see a lovely variation, you know, a lovely bluebird executed in a soft shoe rather than, you know, a kid struggling to get through the movement.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because also a lot of kids, you know, I I've seen it before.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: I see a kid do, you know, bluebird, for example, in a point shoe and it's a hot mess and it just looks terrible, if I'm being honest.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: But then you put them in a flat shoe and it's gorgeous.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then in my mind, I'm like, you should have just competed in a flat shoe to begin with.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that if a if a kid is not ready, then there's no way you should put them uh on stage in a point shoe, in my opinion.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, once upon a time there were no uh regulations at Youth America Grand Prix, but now the pre-competitives you they do ask you to be off point.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that's up to age 11.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when I worked for Boston Ballet, Boston's a town with wonderful health, and we had many health professionals talk to us about puberty, about point.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: In general, you want the growth plates in your foot to be starting to stabilize and you want puberty to be occurring before you put a dancer on point.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, this is not just women anymore.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now we have men that are turning on point with some regularity.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: So in general, you're looking around 12 to 13.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: That being said, we are human beings and whereas we are all equal, we are all different.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, some people have very late puberty and some people have an early puberty, so there can be some variation there.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: But to Alicia's point, I know I've seen 16-year-olds on point, but I'm like, what is going on here?
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it's you know, there's also a responsibility to the teachers to understand who's capable.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: Many times I've judged Youth America Grand Prix semi finals, and the dancer is uh, you know, very weak with minimal training, and the teacher has put them off point, and I will always comment great decision, great coaching.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Happy to see this dancer a point because I know that there's pressure from parents and kids to put them on point.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: So if a teacher is taking, particularly like somebody who's clearly old enough to be on point, but they're taking them off, I always applaud the teacher, even if that dancer is not a serious contender.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: I I want those teachers to feel empowered to make the right decision.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then with point work, you know, it's interesting.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think Alicia and I have a similar background, so we with with balancing work as my base.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like we we're not a balancing school.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: We we try to teach the speed and um excitement, but we lean classically at the rock school.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: But balancing has a very articulated point work, um, which is why they like freed shoes.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: We are an official freed school at the rock school because they're softer shoes.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: That being said, there are many good shoes, but there are also different methodologies in terms of how to get up on point and how to get down.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: So for instance, when I would drudge, I would also often say, you know, roll through your foot more.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: But then I realize these children are being trained not to.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're being trained to bring up.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: So that's another thing that you want to be mindful that someone is doing is executing the training that is asked of them well, even if it's different from your artistic perspective.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: And separating those two things.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 45:16
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• 46:14
  SPEAKER_03: That's the hardest part about being a judge in general, you know, because like I can relate to that in so many ways.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I know I I don't specialize in ballet.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_03: When I'm when I'm sitting on uh more of a commercial style judging panel, I'm versed in every style that I'm judging, but I don't specialize in ballet.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_03: So I wouldn't be able to determine the difference upon how a dancer is dancing if they're doing Ballantine or Veganova and and because of that knowledge immediately, oh, make sure we're articulating our foot in a different way.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like I wouldn't know how to express that and articulate that as a judge in that moment, because that's not my specialty.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_03: But that's why you go to ballet competitions is to get that type of criticism from people who specialize in these genres, this these different techniques within ballet.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what makes it so special.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_03: So, but I think that that it can be very relatable in the sense of like tap terminology and different execution of tap dance and different styles of jazz technique and things like that.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's like everyone has these different training from our time as dancers.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_03: So when you hear a judge critique, take it with a little bit of a grain of salt because it they might be just saying what they what they've learned and what they're seeing in that moment.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, the people on the other end might be like, well, I'm dancing Balanchine, so they should know that it's XYZ.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, well, maybe they don't know that, or maybe they didn't know.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_03: And that's okay too.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_03: They still belong in that seat.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_03: But I think that it's important to compare that to what we also get at our commercial dance competitions because it's very, very much the same.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_03: And like, if you want that ballet-specific feedback, that's why you are going to a ballet-based competition.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_03: For sure.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: Can I jump in for one thing, Courtney?
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because you do you do bring up something interesting with you know balancing and magona, but I do feel like if you're using a competition for a networking opportunity, now I'm not talking about those kids that are like, you know, they're spectacular and they're out to win and they're gonna be coached, you know, uh, you know, to their pinky toenail.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: If you're using it for a networking opportunity, I actually think to be too stylistically specific works against you.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to be too balancing to Vaganava.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: You want to have enough base and perspective in your movement quality, but but also let the judges or potential recruiters know that you are open.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I always equate ballet technique to a tree.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: So the base of the tree is the same.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: Are your shoulders and hips square?
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: Are you pronating your feet or your knees stretched?
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have a branch of Chiquetti, you have a branch of, and if you go out too too much on one branch, it can turn off other people.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: So you you can go a little bit out on a branch, but you really want to focus on sort of a core.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say even with like the makeup and costuming, like if it's if it's too overdone, it can be a turnoff to some people.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: And to Peter's point, I think as a judge, I'm looking, and I think most judges are looking for for students that are teachable, you know.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think that, you know, again, if you if you overdo it, if you're if you're too balancing, then it's like, okay, if if a classical person is watching, then it's like, oh my God, I have to do so much to to reel them in from the, you know, from that.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: And even even me, when I when I'm judging, I was gonna mention this uh a while ago, but when I'm judging, sometimes I'll see a dancer that's very classically trained, like very, very veganava, and you know, their fingers are like this.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I I find myself being like, spread your fingers.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: I want to see every finger, you know, like I'm like, I like I I my balancing training wants to come out, or if they have a long attitude, I'm like, bend your attitude.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: But then I have to remind myself that again, this is how they're trained, and and and that's okay.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we can always work on that.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I think students that are the most teachable are the best students to work with, in my opinion.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_02: And we talk a lot on our podcast about versatility and being able to be hired in multiple different places.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, I don't, I've never seen you dance, Alicia, but based on your resume, you are clearly a very versatile dancer and somebody who's willing to say, I'm gonna abandon this mode of thinking for a minute, and I'm gonna go over here and do this.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then you know what?
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: I can shift focus and go over here and do that.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: And you can clearly do it all well because you're not married to this one way of doing things.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, there's something to be said for specialists.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_02: And if if that's what you do and that's all you can do, and you do it 110%, okay.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: But that's not everybody.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: So 100% for me personally, I'm you know, so happy that I grew up in the competition, you know, in the commercial competition world.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because I grew up mainly like ballet was like an afterthought.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was like, I hated ballet, honestly.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I used to call my dad on the landline and be like, I'm sick for ballet, but I'll be fine for jazz.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, But, you know, I'm so happy that I have that as a foundation because now, you know, even when I was at Dance Theater of Harlem, we would have, you know, super, super, super contemporary choreographers and Bella Lopez Achoa, you know, a bunch of choreographers come in and they would want you to do, you know, all this like jazzy or more contemporary movement.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a lot of my coworkers that were like, I've just been doing ballet my whole life.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: And they had to kind of teach themselves how to move in a different way.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm really grateful and thankful that I've I have, you know, a strong base of being able to turn a switch off and on and and to have that comparability and different types of movement other than just the balanceing style of ballet.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I always tell my students, change equals success.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it's, I mean, first of all, as as we discussed, to be in any company, there's a the rep is is is is all over the place.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: But look at what's happened in our dance world in the last decade.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: Nearly every major arts organization has had a leadership change.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, the folks that were in San Francisco ballet under Hal Git Tomasin, you know, when a new director comes in, if Tamara Rogers shows up that first day, you better do what she wants, you know, however she wants to rate or fonda or whatever it is she's looking for, and be willing to change or find another job.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_00: So even if you're in an organization, it there you you may be required to do that.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: So being open to change and and responsive to the teacher is is a necessary skill for success in this field.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_03: Great advice.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_02: So in uh this is a more recent uh change in the competitive dance scene on our end, and I say recent within the last 10, 15 years, but early in the 90s, you know, 80s, regular dance competitions didn't have levels.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_02: You just competed within your age group, and that is what you did, and people won and they lost, and that was it.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_02: These days, we have multiple levels.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: Some competitions have as many as five levels on our end.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm curious, do ballet competitions have levels that are that equate to certain amount of training or skill-based levels, or is everybody just competing in their age category and it is what it is?
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I I'm only familiar with Youth America Grand Prix and Friedalaisan, where we're I judge and send students and and those are age-based.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_00: But it's a great idea.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: I like it.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_02: Don't say that.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_02: It complicates everything.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: The challenge is, and this is a this is like another uh podcast for you, but you know, ballet is one of the few things you can teach in America with zero qualification.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why Raymond Lucinson, Franco Davida, tried to codify this ABT teacher training more than the ABT way of doing it, but try to help people to have more knowledge and how to teach.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: Not just how to do tondus, but what's appropriate for a four-year-old, what's appropriate for a 12-year-old child development, physically, mentally, every other way.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: But the reality is anybody can hang a shingle, and people can be uh, you know, self-professed experts, which is why parents really need to, you know, do their research before sending their kid to a jam school because it can be very expensive and everybody says they do it the best.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: I love the idea, Leslie.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: I just I worry that people will say, I'm a level five.
• 54:08
  unknown: Right.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: But then how do you how do you you know, how are you gonna to uh quantify and clarify, you know, but I it's a great idea if we can figure it out.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's one thing to your point, Peter.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: I also judge for Youth America Grand Prix, as well as the other competition I judge for Sheer Elite.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: And at Shear, you know, at YGP it's age-based, but at Shear, it's pre-comp pre-elite and pre-compete.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't even know what it is.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's so complicated.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like uh uh nine to eleven-year-olds that train less than three hours a week, go in one division.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then if you train four or more hours a week, you go in another division.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_01: And there usually is a clear difference, but what starts to happen sometimes is you know, you see a nine to eleven year old doing like round off back hands we're gonna back tuck, back tuck, and this and that, and doing really advanced things.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then you're kind of sitting there thinking, can you really learn that in three hours a week?
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it becomes a fine line, and then you get the teachers involved and it's just it can be a headache, but I think in the ballet world, it would it would really be cool to see, but you know, in the commercial competition world, I feel like it could be more of a headache.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's that's interesting.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_02: That that's an interesting concept that ballet competitions would be interested in because on from our perspective, it has only created controversy and and uh challenges for the judges and teachers.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, you you're constantly, like you said, Alicia, having people dance down in order to win.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, as you were saying, Peter, that like, you know, winning one of these ballet competitions means more than just saying I got first place.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_02: It means heading on to training and getting scholarships that actually matter to places that are that could provide you a job at one point.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so I think that that would maybe be the difference just because the sort of standards of the ballet competitions are a little bit different than everybody else.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_02: But that that's so interesting.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_02: That answered my question.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah, this was great, y'all.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like that we covered a lot.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_03: I've learned a lot about ballet competitions, and I appreciate all of this knowledge that you shared with our dance world out there.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_03: To the teachers, the studios, the dancers, the parents who might be attending an upcoming ballet competition or their kid wants to start competing in one.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_03: Now you know a lot more about what it really takes to uh compete in one of these awesome and exciting additions to our dance world.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_03: To Peter and Alicia, thank you so much for joining us on this chat.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_03: And how we always have our guests lead us out is with one final thought on the topic today about ballet competitions.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_03: So if you want to speak to studio owners out there, parents, dancers who may be competing, any final tips, tricks, advice, guidance that you want to share with them as we lead out on this week's episode?
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'll go first.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: To me, I think that with competitions, the process is the prize.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: The process of working with your teacher, the process of trying something hard.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh most of the variations in classical ballet that you learn are things that principal dancers do, ages 25 and up.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it would be many years before you'd actually do something like that with a professional ballet company.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_00: The process of failing can be a really wonderful learning tool on a variety of fronts.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and can get a young dancer to double down to decide this is really what they want to do.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say focus on the process, don't focus on the results.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think kind of piggybacking off of what Peter just said, a message to dancers don't get discouraged if you don't get first place.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_01: Don't, don't get discouraged, don't let your, you know, you know, your mental go there.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because, for example, when I competed with YGP, I didn't even make the top 12, you know.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_01: And at first I was obviously upset and hurt.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_01: But again, the process is the prize.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely loved training.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_01: I loved coaching.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: I loved, I learned so much.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, I competed in Orlando when you were in Orlando, Peter.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: And getting to take classes there at the Orlando Ballet School.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like I loved it.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I know also that it, you know, if you don't win, if you don't even place that, can be discouraging.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: But for example, some of the dancers, like I still keep in touch with somebody that ended up like going to New York the year I competed and in a winning like third place, something like that.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: But now she is a nurse.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, that's wonderful.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I didn't even place and I became a professional in the dance world.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, everybody's destiny is different.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that as long as you, when you're competing and you know you don't win, you can kind of use that as fuel to, you know, kind of kind of want to train more and want to fall in love with ballet more and really be successful in that.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_03: So we hope you enjoyed our latest episode all about ballet competition.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_03: Special shout out to Alicia and Peter for joining us on this chat.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_03: Don't forget to follow them on social media.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_03: You can find Alicia at Alicia MayHolloway underscore on Instagram and follow Peter's pre-professional ballet training studio, The Rock School, on Instagram at Rock SchoolDamps.
• 59:12
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• 59:19
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• 59:26
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• 59:34
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• 59:41
  SPEAKER_03: Ready to take your competition dance to the next level?
• 59:44
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• 59:47
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• 59:51
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• 59:58
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  SPEAKER_03: Parents, dancers, choreographers, and studios are loving this personalized and professional service for our dance world.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_03: We even offer genre-specific judge requests, 24-hour rush delivery, and bulk order discounts for studios submitting five or more dances.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_03: Prices start at only$35 per critique and are available year round.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_03: Visit our website to learn more and submit your dance now at ImpactDanceAjudicators.com/slash online critiques.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_03: Get ready to wow the judges at your next competition after using IDA's online judges critiques.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_03: We can't wait to see your dance.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_02: We are on a roll in season six with some excellent episodes coming your way.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_02: Stay tuned for episodes on alignment and anatomy for dance, costuming, and winter and summer intensives.