Latest / Pelvic PT Rising / Blending Pelvic Rehab & Health Coaching: An Interview with Jessica Drummond

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Blending Pelvic Rehab & Health Coaching: An Interview with Jessica Drummond · Pelvic PT Rising

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: In the last 10 years, our field has gone from an unknown specialty to a household name.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: This brings unprecedented opportunities, but we need to rise up to meet them and give our patients the care that they deserve.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: In order to help others get better, we need to be better.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: This podcast will help you to become more confident with your patients, more successful in your practice or business and a leader in pelvic health, and we're going to have some fun along the way.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Join us as we rise together.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: We're Jesse and Nicole Cozine, founders of Pelvic Sanity Physical Therapy and the creators of the Pelvic PT Huddle, and this is Pelvic PT Rising.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the Pelvic PT Rising podcast with Jesse and Nicole Cozine.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Hey, nicole, hello, I cannot wait for this interview that you do with Jessica Drummond at someone you've known for 10 plus years.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've known Jessica for a long, long time and seen her sort of trailblaze in this field on health coaching and nutrition and functional medicine and just showing us all the expansion of what we can do for our patients if we have the right training.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: And I'm really excited for you guys to listen to her.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: I do fly solo again in my interviewing skills with this, so I hope you all like that.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: I was having a little brief discussion.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Whenever we do this podcast, I get on with the people.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: We actually record it on Zoom with face to face so we can actually see each other and stuff.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: And I was talking to her a little bit about.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: I was like can we at some point in this podcast talk about this definition of health coaching?
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Because I said to her so I think you're responsible very much in a good way, or this obsession we all have now to become a quote unquote health coach, like let's do health coaching.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: And then I was laughing a little bit because I was like there's a lot of people that are like, oh, I'm just going to go into health coaching a little bit and put that online and have it be passive income.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: And we both were like totally laughing a little bit about how that's like she goes.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: That's someone that sounds like they haven't ever done an online business before.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, and so we were just.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: It's not how that works.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Right, and but I was like you know, all kidding aside and everything, can we please define what health coaching is and how does that play a role in what we are doing?
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: What happens if you're not a certified health coach?
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: Can you still do health coaching?
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: And so we get into all of that, in addition to some other amazing things and clinical pearls and a missing link, all the things here with Jessica German.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: But that I think I'm really most excited for y'all to hear about is this definition of health coaching, who can do it, when?
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: And we just get to hear from just somebody that is so awesome in our field.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, cannot wait to hear her speak at Pelvicon.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: If you guys are joining us, I hope you're getting excited.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: If you were not able to come this year, make sure you have gotten your recording.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: You want to get the early bird discount that's $50 off on that but you're going to get access to both talks from Jessica Drummond as well as two talks from all of our incredible speakers and Nicole, you use that word again trailblazing, and that absolutely describes Jessica, and I think that's the recurring theme that keeps coming up with these speakers.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: Almost everybody we are talking to has in some form or fashion expanded the Pelvic rehab scope.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: What you can do the mindset it's going to be such an incredible conference.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: I cannot wait to learn from all of these incredible speakers.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: So, with no further ado, here is our interview with Jessica Drummond.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: All righty folks here with us today on the Pelvic PT Rising podcast we have Dr Jessica Drummond, who probably needs no introduction, but I'm going to have her give you one anyways.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: Dr Jessica Drummond, thanks so much for being on the podcast.
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me.
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: It's my pleasure so for many of you.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: As many of you know that we are doing a Pelvicon speaker series.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: Dr Jessica Drummond is going to be speaking at Pelvicon here in gosh really soon.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: That Pelvicon's in the beginning of September, so it's coming up and we're just really excited to have her talk with you guys all about health coaching, a lot of the things that she's doing.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: She is the founder of the Integrative Women's Health Institute.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: She's the author of Outsmart ENDO.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: She is the creator of some of the first women's health coach certifications.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: Jessica, you do it all.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: How do you do it all?
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much for that kind introduction.
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: I do it all because, one, I've been doing it since 2006.
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: So it takes a while to build some of these things.
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: And two, because I have a really great team that I work with in our company and yeah, so you know and a very supportive family as well.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: That's how that's awesome.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: Now, can you give for people that don't maybe don't know your entire journey both into Pelvic Health and then also into health coaching and the beginning of the founding of your Integrative Women's Health Institute?
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: Can you just give us the little timeline of when you got into all of this and what you're doing now?
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I graduated from physical therapy school in 1999 and I started off in sports medicine and orthopedics and manual therapy and I was an athlete as a kid and kind of forever.
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: I even sort of still consider myself an athlete, at least in mindset.
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: So then, pretty quickly though, I began to specialize in women's health and pelvic health.
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: I started actually in orthopedic rehab for things like breast cancer and shoulders and spine, for pregnant and postpartum women.
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: I did many years of pregnant and postpartum exercise, training and fitness, and you know I taught at CSM on pregnancy related exercise, probably in like 2002 or something.
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: You know how I even had kids, yeah, like sometime before 2003.
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: So and then after the birth of my first daughter, who was about to turn 20, I got sick.
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: I was just kind of busy and stressed and I think what happened?
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: Because I had a pretty easy pregnancy with her and I worked all through it in a women's hospital in Houston and that was a great learning experience environment because we had great mentors.
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: The department was led by Fatima Hakim, who was one of the kind of premier in our work, and you know we had a group of several PTs, which is the time was very rare and is still somewhat rare, in the sense that we had each other to learn from and with, and Fatima brought a lot of great women's and public health PTs in to teach us all the time and she basically threw us on stage as fast as she could, and so I was surrounded by people like you know, beth Shelley and Holly Herman and Kathy Wallace, and when I was really young I was in my early 20s and actually Tracy Cher was one of my colleagues.
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: We're about the same age and so we learned a lot.
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: We saw everything there.
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: I was doing manual therapy in labor and delivery rooms, you know.
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: We had all the complex pelvic pain, we had immediate postpartum, and I did that off and on for about like 12 years.
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: I kind of it kind of overlapped with my work in nutrition and health coaching, but when I got sick it took about two years.
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: So basically what I had after my daughter was born in 2003,.
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: I just was so fatigued and I had started having anxiety and other like vague symptoms and what I know now from all my functional medicine training.
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: It was probably a reactivation of Epstein-Barr virus and adrenal dysregulation related to that, and so I had to really kind of rebuild and readjust my perspective and take a lot of rest.
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: It took me about two years of not exercising and changing how I ate and that's what spurred me to be interested in functional nutrition, which is a little confusing because functional nutrition and health coaching are not the same thing, but in functional medicine they're all three not the same thing, but there are aspects of all of them that overlap and in terms of the training.
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: So I was fortunate enough when I was quite sick to live like down the street from a functional medicine doctor whose son was an acupuncturist and they had a wonderful clinic right near my house and over that year I recovered with their support and then I started training in more like biochemical systems-based nutrition and I started applying it because I thought, okay, if this was a hormonal issue, I could apply that to my public pain patients.
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: Because back then now we're talking like 2006-ish people still the treatment the patients we were seeing for things like endometriosis and chronic pelvic pain and bladder pain had like stimulators in their spine and they were all addicted to opioids and they had had 16 to 20 surgeries.
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: The treatment was horrible, really, really bad, and we would see them in the clinic so late and do what we could, but the physical therapy tools were just not enough.
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: So I started integrating nutrition tools, lifestyle medicine tools, and they worked.
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: I had patients who avoided hysterectomy because they made a couple of simple dietary changes, which was shocking to me, because anyone who went to PT school with me is currently shocked that I am a nutrition.
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: My contribution to any given potluck was something like slice and bake cookies in graduate school.
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: Like all the glue coats.
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: my roommate actually yeah all the glue coats, all the gluten, all the dairy.
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: When I originally like my first functional medicine doctor was like, oh, just try and stop eating gluten and dairy.
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: And I was like, what are you talking about?
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: This was again in 2004.
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, I don't really think that's a thing.
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: All I really eat is like yogurt and pasta.
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: So what am I going to eat?
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: So I was starving and confused, but it did Like, immediately when I made some of these changes, I had complete elimination of pain and things happened rapidly Because, first of all, I was in my 20s, I was young, I could recover quick.
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: But also, even for my patients who had unrelenting pain to the point they were going to have insurrectomies, also had big shifts, and so that spurred me.
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: I really had to see it to believe it, because I was just completely shocked.
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: And so I started studying nutrition.
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: I went to Duke after my second daughter was born and got an initial certification in health coaching, and then I felt that we needed to look at it through a particular lens for women's and pelvic health and integrate the work that we knew from physical therapy with the lifestyle medicine strategies and the tool of health coaching, and that's when I started teaching that to women's and pelvic health professionals and we had our first women's health coach certification program in Houston.
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: Live in around, I don't know, 2006, 2007, sometime in that timeframe.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is quite the journey, and correct me if I'm wrong, but yours is the first women's health certification for health coach.
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's still the only and the only, first and the only.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: That's so awesome, true trailblazer.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: What kinds of people then do you feel like in our field would benefit from doing something like this?
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: Because I feel like here's a slightly leading question, but I will qualify it by saying that when I was in PT school and I graduated in 2006, we had one half of one class on quote unquote behavior change, and I know that all of us were so annoyed that that was taking time out of ortho and neuro.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: And we just need to get into the lab and do some more hip mobilizations and we just need to learn a little bit more about the SI joint and the tailbone.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: And I don't even want to deal with this other didactic class that is so dumb, because I'm surely going to be able to get everybody to do what I want them to do.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: And so fast forward now, after 17 years of being in this field, and I, every single day, am just wishing that that was more in our curriculum as a foundational principle to treat.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: So if someone's looking to get some of this health coaching aspect into their practice, who do you think is it appropriate for everybody?
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: Is it appropriate for only certain people with certain interests?
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Can you just speak a little bit to who that's appropriate for.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: So I think, first of all, what is health coaching right?
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: So it's appropriate for every clinician for sure, every clinician physician, maybe.
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: Maybe not if you're a surgeon, but even then it would be best if you talk to your patients once or twice before EG surgery and after.
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: If you're a trauma surgeon who never talks to your patient, then you probably don't need it, but everybody else ever talks to their patients does would benefit from health coaching.
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: And the reason is that health coaching is actually and it's really confusing because there are hundreds of thousands of health coaches on Instagram who are just people giving kind of random lifestyle recommendations, but health coaching is a true board certification.
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: There is a National Board of Health Coaching.
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: It has a clear definition which was actually come up with very rapidly in the field of how quickly things move in health care among many stakeholders, everyone from payers to institutional, private institutions of education, to public and to university institutions of education.
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: A lot of stakeholders came together and defined health coaching and really what health coaching is is this communication, skill set of empowerment and client or patient-led lifestyle behavior change to be healthier.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: And the VA hospital, the federal government's program of the Veteran Administration Hospital, has just recently come out with a mandate that they want absolutely all of their health, their clinical staff trained and certified, board certified as health coaches, and so, by the way, if you work at a VA and you're in women's or public health, we're increasingly working with people in their departments.
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: Every hospital administers this program a little bit differently, but there is funding for you to get our program paid for from the government, so it's something to look into.
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: If you're a women's or public health nurse, nurse practitioner, urologic nurse, pelvic PT, ot, this is part of what they're looking to do and I think that's fantastic because really and we have the same thing we had a class in PT school called Teaching and Learning, which I have no idea what they taught us.
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, that was a really long time and we all loved it because we thought it was kind of like easy and it was like a place to skip.
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: But the truth of the matter is, once you get into practice, your biggest challenge is always connecting with your clients such that they not only two things happen.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: When you have really good health coaching skills, your job gets 100% easier because you're no longer like dragging your patients to try to do what they're supposed to do to get better for themselves.
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: You start the engagement with every single client at a level of their understanding what their commitment is going to be, the process, what they're willing to do, what they're able to do, what they want to do, what their real goals are.
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: Not like my doctor sent me here, I'm going to lay here and check out while you mobilize me and then I'm going to be better.
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: We don't actually have the capacity and I think this is a little bit revolutionary, I'm saying this, but we don't really have the capacity in most cases to fix anybody.
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: We create the environment such that the physiologic mechanisms of the body can do the work of healing and sometimes that does involve sort of like manual mobilization of fascia or space or strength training or something like that.
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: But really the body heals, if you will.
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: The person has to have a level of motivation around what they're willing to do to sustain that, because there's so much involvement with the digestive system, the immune system, the nervous system.
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: We can't heal if we're under stress.
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: We can't heal if we're in a freeze state.
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: We can't heal if we're in chronic inflammation.
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: And most of the modification of that kind of stuff involves the client or patient making day-to-day changes, big or small, over time, and different paces.
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: You know the pace of change and all that, and that's what the communication skills set of health coaching allows clinicians to utilize, and it really puts the onus of healing on the patient, which makes your job a hundred times less stressful and the client's results so much better because they are immediately in an ownership seat of their recovery.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: Which is such a gift to be able to give to people.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like, at the end of the day, one of the things that is plaguing our field right, as you all know, is burnout, and if you really think back about why burnout is such a thing, it might be going back to the fact that we might not be as much as we think we are, we might not be meeting people where they are, and instead we have this construct of what we think they should be doing.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: And if only they just did these things, because I think that they're important.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: Not even taking into account, do they think they're important?
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: Are they gonna be able to make those changes in their life?
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: Do they want to?
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: All of that, and I feel like if we can, yeah, use these health coaching principles to our advantage, then the patient wins, we win.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: Like you said, it makes our job a hundred times easier and then the longevity in the field for us is going to increase exponentially, I bet.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: Right and it changes things so much because when you realize that you don't have the power to fix anyone, you also don't have the responsibility, in the sense that when people don't get better, it's not your fault, which is, people take a lot of that on right.
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: I should have figured that.
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: What else can I be doing?
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: Well, what I always say is slow it way down.
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: Sometimes they need a more specific or different kind of recommendation or referral, or you do need to do something different or whatever, but most of the time it's slowing it way down and reassessing with every session.
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: Oh okay, what are you actually doing at home right now with your nervous system to keep moving them all forward?
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: Because what we end up doing when we get kind of in this fear zone of like someone's not getting better and they're getting mad at me and they paid me all this money and they've been here for six months and they're getting worse and this thing's getting worse, you're like piling on the recommendations.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: You're like, well, let's try this, let's try this, but you haven't really taken a moment through the journey to be like let's really make sure you've done step one.
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: And then they didn't do step one and they you know where.
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: They did step one, but not all the way, and then they don't.
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: You don't know why they didn't do it because you never talked to them.
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: So you just gave them step two, three and four, and then they're like I tried everything and nothing works because.
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: And then they go see someone else because they're like that person's gonna tell me what to do.
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: It's never one thing, especially when we're talking about complex chronic pain, chronic pelvic pain.
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: It's a hundred small things, but most of which you've skipped the base layer, most of us have not spent enough time at the base layer.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: And when you skip the base layer and you pile on a hundred different things, suddenly they're taking 25 supplements and 10 medications.
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: And they've done.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: They're doing visceral therapy and meditation and you know they're doing all kinds of you know hypnotism and vaping, like anything.
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: Just pile it all on and they feel worse because there's no connection to the goals.
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: There's no settling of the nervous system, there's no clear path of what they're trying to accomplish.
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: They're just trying to, like, shut down the symptoms.
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: And that's really a game of whack-a-mole if you don't have the communication skills of getting people to kind of slowly go through a systematic process and learn along the way.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I feel like you know something that hit me when you said you know we take it on ourselves and then we give them steps, you know, two through 17, when they haven't even gone to step one.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: A lot of that sometimes, especially as our field is going more into the cash-based realm, is a little bit of our own money, mindset issues.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: Like you said, I'm paying all this money, they're paying me all this money and I can't help them, we feel, in order to make ourselves feel better about charging them the $200, $250 a session, to be giving them stuff that's so basic isn't, you know, appropriate?
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: And in fact, what I'm hearing you say is it might be the most appropriate thing that you do, even if it takes six sessions for them to fully be able to do step one.
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that is a huge problem because I see this all the time People feel very stressed about how much they're charging and all of that, and so they just give people more and more and more complicated, expensive, challenging things to do.
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: But that actually is counterproductive.
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: And instead if we set, if we really sit with people the first, you know, for the first three months or the first six weeks, the first few sessions, and we really help them understand how much they're gonna have to change, how much they're going to, you know, and again, we're not even really helping them understand that Like they're deciding and we're then collaborating, because it's really always client led.
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: That's one of the most important tenants of house coaching.
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: They're deciding what they really care about, what they have the bandwidth for, what their support network is like, what they're willing to do, what they're not willing to do, and then we can practically talk about the results that we can expect given our experience.
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: So let's say I meet with someone on their first session and they have endometriosis and they've had pelvic pain for 16 years and they have painful sex and they have back pain and they have a lot of fatigue and anxiety and they're also like studying for the LSATs and they're getting married in three months and yada, yada right.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: Like all of our patients, yeah, that's everybody right.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: Did you read my charts?
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: Amazing cake yeah, right, I mean, and the reality is that's not a crazy case Like, that's a normal case of someone I would see, right Totally.
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: So I say, okay, let's start with how much.
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: What have you already done?
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: And they'll say, well, I went to pelvic PT.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: My first PT was okay, and then I stopped seeing her because I just didn't have time to get there, and then that sort of helped.
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: And then I went to this other PT and that was terrible.
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: And then I had some nerve blocks and I had, you know, botox injected into my pelvic floor, and then somebody did dry needling, and then, oh, and then I did, I went gluten free.
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: None of this worked.
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: I'll say, oh, okay, so when you went to that first physical therapist, that did help.
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: Briefly, let's really dive into what was helpful about that.
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: Are you continuing any of it?
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: How much time do you have to do your home pelvic PT exercises?
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: If you only had $100 a month to spend on your health, do you think that maybe going back to that person every week for the next three months would be helpful?
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: You know, and you really ask a lot of questions about, like, what was the king of the armor?
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: And the first step, though is with health coaching, is you really have to listen because you'll hear a different thing than what they sort of you know?
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: It's sort of like how you read a research paper and the conclusions just like blah, blah, blah, and you're like, yeah, that's not really what this paper said.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah it's exactly.
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: Yes, three analogy it's the same thing, right, it's the same thing with patients, right?
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: They come, they tell you this whole story and you're gonna have to really listen slowly, patiently, without interruption, for way longer than you think, which ends up being like 12 minutes.
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: But it feels like, oh my God, I've used half my session, I haven't done anything, I haven't told them anything.
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: How can they pay $3,000 for this?
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: You know, I'm like, no, this is what they're paying you for to slow it way down and listen for what's helpful.
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: And there we start, and then we ask questions kind of before that, like what brought you here?
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: So there's a lot of listening, a lot of reflecting back.
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: You know, I'll say something like oh so that first PT, you felt better, let's talk more about that.
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: And then we'll be like, oh, this felt better, this felt better, this, this works.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: But it only lasted for 10 minutes and then it okay, great.
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: Then we have more information and the more you develop these skills, the less work there is to do and the more that the client figures out how to heal herself.
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: Which is yeah, Because she often has so much information right.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: Right, right, right, and we're just the facilitator in helping the person see it for themselves.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: And, honestly, sometimes the questioning then can help, even just by helping the person say it out loud instead of you telling them.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: That brings its own sort of healing and realization process in the mix.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: So and you also learn how to sit with the emotion around that, because there's a lot of pain, a lot of emotional pain that we are afraid in as PT's.
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: I think when you get trained in health coaching, you get a lot of tools and skills to manage that and you also know when mental health therapists is appropriate to bring in who is a red flag Like.
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of training on that because it's distinct skill sets.
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: And when you're working in PT, you never wanna open the box of emotions Cause you're like what am I gonna do with that?
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: I have no skills.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: When you learn coaching, you are safe to work with people as they experience emotions related to well.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: I could have actually been better five years ago had I really understood this then, and maybe I would have been able to have a baby.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: That's painful.
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: You have to be okay to sit with that, and that is a skill.
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: This is what health coaching really is.
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: It's not going on Instagram and people teaching people to make smoothies.
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: It really isn't.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's profound actually, and then that also kind of leads me into my.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: The next thing I just want to touch on a little bit is is this a phrase scope of practice?
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: Because what you're describing to me is something that is, like you said, a communication skill set.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: It's as complex to need to be worthy of a board certification in this right, so it's not just something that we should already know, necessarily, but it's an extra skill set that we can obtain in order to help our clients and patients, and I love what you said about it.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: It can be part of what we do already as a clinician, as a PT, as an OT, especially in this public rehab space.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: It's both and it's not either or, and so many times I'm seeing, you know, I keep my finger on the pulse of, you know what the Graham is doing, and I feel like even some of our colleagues are being like, oh, I'm going to go into this other thing now.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: You know, instead of doing pelvic rehab, I'm going to do health coaching, and I love the.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: What you just did right there is is help us to see that those two things are not mutually exclusive and can be practiced together and can be practiced within our scope of practice as a pelvic rehab provider by using those skills.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: So I love that that we went through those definitions.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for clarifying anything else you want to say about that.
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think.
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: Lastly, I would say that any clinician who deep dive learns the skill set of health coaching, that will absolutely benefit your practice and you can just integrate it within your practice.
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: You can also, you know, because you can do it in periods of time.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: So let's say you have a 45 minute session with someone, it's how you speak to them is just going to change.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: It's not like it's a whole separate thing necessarily and you're never going to have time to put your hands on them.
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: That's not true.
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: The better you get at it.
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: And there are kind of variable sort of legal and insurance and stuff like that areas in terms of, like, what is in health coaching scope of practice and what is in PT scope of practice.
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: And so you could set up two different entities or two different things like services, products, whatever, within your business.
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: And you know some attorneys will tell you to do that.
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: And I think it's important that anyone who has a business, of course, of any kind, has an attorney.
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: Every business owner has an attorney that they directly consult with for their own circumstance, because we've trained tens of thousands of practitioners in like 60 countries and most US states.
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: So, like every law is different, Everyone's scope of practice is different, whether your nurse is different than if you're an OT or PT or whatever.
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: But I think that what's important to understand is that health coaching can be a legitimate separate profession so you could decide to not be a pelvic physical therapist anymore, in the sense that you don't put your hands on people, you don't give them direct exercises or whatever, and you like change careers, just like if you decided to become a nurse or become a lawyer or something.
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: You could do that.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: And there is a whole independent job, like if someone is a HR director.
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: They can become a health coach by taking a health coaching certification, get a board certification, same thing with any health professional.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: And it's interesting because we teach in our programs over the years we've probably had about 60% people who came from a clinical profession.
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: Many of those people will integrate it with their profession and not really change professions but amplify their profession.
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: You know, do both of these professions, or collaboratively, which is totally fine.
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: And we have about 30% of people who are complete career changers, like they were doing something totally different, not even in healthcare.
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: And what's challenging for people who are in healthcare, who become a health coach, is that unlearning of constantly telling people what to do before you've engaged with them actually doing things.
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: And I had the exact same problem when I learned to be a health coach, because I said exactly what you said earlier in this conversation, like I remember even saying to my like professor at Duke, like, but like, what do you do when you're just sitting there?
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: And you know that if they would do ABC and D, they would get better.
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: And she was like that's not health coaching.
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: And she was like you know, she's like, no, that's wrong.
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: And I got like I understood it, but it was very hard transition to make because in our clinical graduate training it's like your job is to fix this person.
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: They never told us.
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: You know, when I was in my master's program at Emory, not once did they say you're not actually healing anybody, you're creating the environment for people's bodies to heal.
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: No, it was like your job is get this person better or you're not meeting your productivity standards or whatever Right, that's just untrue.
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: It's just untrue.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: So so untrue and can be freeing.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: So I hope that anyone listening to this podcast can.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: If you don't take anything away from that, take that away, that it can be a weight lifted off of you so you can help your own adrenal system with that.
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: All right, so well, that's interesting and then so what?
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: so what I'm going to sort of pivot into now is that we're basically we're we're having you talk at Pelvicon about how we can help people with things like fatigue, anxiety and chronic pain with this mind, body medicine approach to healing, and I'm so excited that you're bringing this to Pelvicon because I feel like you're so uniquely equipped to to have all of these foundations of health coaching and pelvic rehab and nutrition and all of that kind of rolled into one big teaching platform.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: I'm so excited for this.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: But you're actually doing part one and part two.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: So the same title, the part one and part two.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: So can you what?
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: When we asked you to be a part of Pelvicon and you're kind of throwing around ideas what made you land on this topic?
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: Well, I think it really aligns with what we've just been talking about.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: At the end of the day, clinicians in pelvic rehab and pelvic health in general whether you're in nursing or your organic colleges to your pelvic PT or OT Our goal is to help people have pain-free sex, pain-free urination, pain-free defecation, healthy, no bloating.
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: We want basically the part of the body and because Western medicine does this, we kind of chops us up.
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: We want our body, between our ribcage and our knees, to feel fine and to function well and to feel pleasurable.
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: If we decide to do that, I think what I have been lucky enough to develop over my 24-year clinical career and just life is also and I didn't mention this in the intro, but in I don't know, like five or six years ago, something like that I also got it I finished my doctorate in clinical nutrition.
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: So what I've been able to see in having all these clinical tools plus having these coaching skills is that when a lot of times these things are siloed, they're sort of mind-body medicine, like if you're just kind of spiritually right and you're meditating enough, all your symptoms are going to go away.
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: Or if you just do the right nutrition, all your symptoms are going to go away, or if you just do the right physical therapy, all your symptoms are going to go away.
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: But all of those perspectives forget to ground the experience with the patient and a lot of how I learned that was being really, really, really sick myself.
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: So I did have that issue with my when I was sick after Claire was born in 2003,.
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: But I was much, much sicker in 2020 when I got COVID and what I and not that I wasn't already practicing like this, but I had to really live it, which was not fun.
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: Isn't fun?
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: Humbling?
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: right, I'm sure.
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: Humbling and it taught me that navigating complex chronic illness, which really is what almost all of our patients have, right, we just talked about, like that case, Nobody really.
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: Endometriosis doesn't have a sort of quote, unquote, known cure.
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: Most of our patients also have some kind of autoimmune disease.
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: Lots of them have things like chronic migraines or TMJ or they've had multiple surgeries or they've had infertility or whatever postpartum depression.
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: Generally speaking, people are increasingly sick and there's a lot of reasons why that probably is.
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: But I think if we're practicing in a realm where most of the people and maybe this is all of clinical medicine, but my space is generally public and women's health so almost all of our people are really complicated and so we have to become more skilled to be able to help them navigate a system that is not at all designed for complex chronic illness.
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: Our system is designed for a very straightforward what I'll describe in public on a hero's journey and that almost never exists in my patients.
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Sometimes, every once in a while, you get something like that's fairly simple and you're like, oh, I'll have to do this, but even then there's something interesting that that client often learns.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure you've read it, but I started down this journey a little bit too, when I was reading a book by Robert Sapolsky called why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers.
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you've heard of this.
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: I haven't read it, but I've heard of it, yeah.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: So, anyway, he studies chimpanzees and he basically just describes the fight-flight-freeze response in animals as a huge spike.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: But then it comes back down and the problem with our society now is that instead of it's a life-or-death situation like any byline, it's oh my gosh, I'm taking the LSAT, oh my gosh, my boss is going to text me and I'm not sure how I want to respond to that type of stuff.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: So it's not as high, but it's more prolonged and our system is not set up for that.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: So it's very interesting to help patients then navigate in this.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: And everybody has that.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: Even the most quote unquote healthy of a client will have some form of this just by living in the world that we live in.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you can attest to that and so I'm sure, because you're a healthy person, right, it's like.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: I'm sure there's like an identity situation with that too.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: It's like I'm a healthy person.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: How can this be happening to me, which is exactly what our patients go through all the time?
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, and it's very interesting.
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: I've been fully updating our endometriosis certificate program and I realized I was reading into the nervous system module around how endometriosis actually changes the part of our brain that gives subjective meaning and feelings to everyday experiences, to any experience, and it's very important that we even think about what is the meaning of these changes, of anything we're experiencing, to that person, because it's often very different when you look at data.
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: The other thing I was recently digging into was that when you look at data about what physicians or clinicians think about what their patients think, we're almost always wrong.
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: We're just wrong.
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: They don't think like we do.
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: They don't Some of them do, I'm sure, but however you think is probably not how your patient thinks or the meaning they've subscribed to their experience, and because it couldn't possibly be right Like I don't expect any of my doctors to really be thinking about moment to moment, like how this long COVID is impacting my life they couldn't possibly do that.
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: How could they do that for all their patients?
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: So they just can't.
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: All they can do is give me some consultation to maybe help me better navigate the recovery or the improvement, whatever that looks like.
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: And so I think, when we think about those chronic stressors too, we have to think of them at all levels.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: They're relational, they're financial, they're EMFs.
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: When I graduated from BT school, we didn't even have cell phones.
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: The amount of just stuff that's in my office right now to like admit radiation on me is just, you know, oh, it just didn't exist 15 years ago, so we don't really know what that's doing.
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: You know the amount of air pollution.
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: I live in Connecticut.
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: We've never.
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: You probably you're in California, right, yeah, so you guys have had fires and whatever.
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: We haven't ever had that before in my lifetime and we had days where I couldn't go outside as a person with lung issue, you know, with chronic COVID, and so you know the black what's in that.
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: My husband was telling me actually that, like the air pollution meter, when they set up the colors, they made a few extra things like we're just never going to hit those.
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: Well, those will just be pretty on the dial.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: Oh, no, we're hitting them, you know.
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you guys have been hitting them for years.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: Yes, you know the amount of like Xenoestrogen, like in everything, like we thought we were good and then it's like.
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: Now it's in all our clothes too, right, so like there's no way we're going to be able to come out from under the physiologic stressors because there's just nowhere to move to.
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: I was talking to a colleague of mine who's been in Bali and you know she lives this very healthy raw food life.
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: She's like yeah, but in Bali the beaches are amazing, except four months a year when they're full of trash, because, like the entire beach is just trash.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: So it's like that's terrible.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: That's terrible, Right?
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: So how can we learn to yeah, how can we help our patients and how can we, like, learn to thrive in this environment?
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: Now?
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because we have the chronic stress of people being able to connect to us all the time.
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: Our work is more 24-7.
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: Like I said, things like social media.
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: We just didn't have any of this stuff when I was a kid.
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: Both of my kids can't even understand not having it, and one of them is 20.
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: Right, no.
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: It's like great, let's make me feel old now I know, but I think that what we have to help people navigate is what their definition of health is, because sometimes people who look healthy.
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: What's interesting about long COVID is it's much more common among people who are very fit.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: That's so interesting.
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: The healthier, the more fit you are, the more receptors you have for how COVID can get into your cardiovascular system.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: That's interesting.
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so be careful.
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: If you're fit, keep wearing your mask.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, keep wearing your mask.
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: Because you can get it.
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: I've had more and more clients who are like oh, this is my third COVID infection.
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: That's when I got long COVID, it's not over.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: No, it's certainly not.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: I'm going to stretch.
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: Although I would say it is easier to navigate than it was two and a half years, three years ago, because we know a lot more about it now.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, think of this.
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: But the reality is yeah, the reality is all of our patients have all these things Endometriosis very common with Epstein-Barr.
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: So I've had the benefit of a ton of training in not just physical therapy but also functional medicine, functional nutrition and health coaching, and so I think, when we thought about what to do with Pelican, the best thing is to help people start thinking more broadly, and to start thinking broadly in the context of how you can practice better for your own longevity and health and sustainability, because we also it's only our patients are all living in that terrible trash environment and the rest of us are fine over here in the whole family.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: Somehow we're in a different bubble Right.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: No and actually, it's interesting that you said that, because that's one of the reasons why Jessica and I, at Pelican, as part of the clinician's lunch, are actually going to talk about, because the theme of Pelican 2023 is it starts with us.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: One of the ways that that is going to be woven into the experiences is, jessica and I are going to talk at a clinician's lunch about longevity in the field, and part of that is taking care of ourselves and what can we do about that, and so I love that your talk from a patient perspective is also going to sort of dovetail nicely with taking care of ourselves in that way, so that we can continue to be healthy and happy and be staying in love with public health, essentially, as things get difficult to navigate as we go.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: So I'm excited about that.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: So, jessica, you briefly mentioned that you were doing a deep dive and enhancing some of your endo health coaching certificate programs, so can you speak a little bit to what are your current projects?
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: What are you doing right now and all of that?
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: Right now we are fully relaunching the Endometriosis certificate program.
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: That is perfect for any health or wellness practitioner who works with people with endometriosis and it's a really deep dive from this multi-dimensional perspective systems by systems healing.
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: You said for 15 years our motto is kind of don't chase symptoms, optimize systems and that's the lens that we look at this through and using all the hottest new therapies red light therapy and HBOT, and supplements and nutrient supplements and herbs and when we need that or don't need that.
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: But just learning and understanding about it is, I think, really valuable because our clients are asking about it, because it's all over social media and podcasts and all of that.
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: We want to be able to have really educated answers.
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: So we're doing that with Endometriosis starting right now, and our perimenopause and menopause program certificate program was also launched back in the fall and then, sorry, in the spring April of this year and then later in the fall of this year we're going to release perimenopause and menopause level two for all of those clients who can't tolerate hormone replacement therapy.
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: What the heck do we do with them?
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, or we shouldn't take it or whatever.
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: We're going to deep dive into that and especially because so many of our clients now have perimenopause and menopause in the context of chronic illness, or they're postpartum.
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: They had a baby at 42, 45, 47.
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, I think you're a good experience.
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so we're going to be talking about the more interesting and challenging issues around perimenopause and menopause.
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: And then, of course, our women's health coach certification is.
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: We have a back to school group starting up with us in September for that, so I'm excited, that's awesome.
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: Now, if anybody is interested in that, and I'll put this in the show notes, but where can they just go to the website integrativeomancehealthinstitutecom.
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: Yes, all of our programs.
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: There's a little programs tab at the top and most of them, I think, are referred to right on the homepage.
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: But our main programs are the certificate programs that are focused on specific topics, and then the women's health coach certification Nice.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, great, all right.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: Well, we are heading into the lightning round.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: So, for all of our public on speakers, we're asking you guys all the four same questions and seeing what answers you all give.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: So are you ready, jessica, for our lightning round?
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: Okay, ready, ready.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: I'm going to take it, but I'll broaden it for you to the East Coast.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: But, jessica, what is the most East Coast thing about you?
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think despite that, my constant commitment to meditation and slowing down and all of that I am a little bit of a driven East Coaster.
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: I've never been able to shift into that West Coast chill vibe.
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: I enjoy it, but it's just not my root nature.
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, man, you know what I think too.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: I think that people in California are just like undercover type A.
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: I feel like we super chill on the outside and then are actually like this covert, frigging, anxiety ridden mess and so just with a little bit of a hey surf set vibe, yeah.
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: So I think we're all in it.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: Jessica, what pets do you have, if any?
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: We have a guinea pig.
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: Just keep Chip.
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, my pet actually belongs to my younger daughter.
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, how cute is that now, and is that the daughter that just went to college?
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, my younger one's 12.
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: Oh, okay, Cool, so you still.
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: It's not like you had to take care of the guinea pig while your other daughter went to college.
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: This is the.
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: This is your daughter's guinea pig.
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: No, yeah, the one at home is still cleaning the cage.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, my gosh, okay, cool, and then it's just one.
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we are.
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: Apparently we were supposed to get two, but I don't know.
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: My husband was in charge of that.
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: That's the only cats we've ever had.
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: I'm not really an animal person.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: I'm not against animals, but I'm not an animal person Right, hence the guinea pig in the cage Awesome yeah, oh my God All right and what do you feel like you're most excited about in our pelvic health field moving going forward.
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: I think I am most excited about this opportunity in the space of medicine in general for people to begin to own their data.
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: One of the things we're talking about a lot in the endometriosis certificate and all of our other programs in this coming year is look, I'm going to make a prediction here that I don't think is too out on the limb sometime in the next five to 10 years, ai is going to be way better than us at recommending literally anything.
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: It's moving extremely rapidly, and my husband has a master's in machine learning and I've been immersed in this for the last five years or so.
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: So right now we get recommendations from teams of people also great.
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: But what we're going to all become if we're going to stay in healthcare is health coaches.
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: Otherwise, there's actually not really a role for us other than the hands-on treatments.
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: But what's great about that for individuals who are trying to get healthy themselves is we are more and more owning our own data.
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: You can get direct consumer testing.
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: You can get all this analysis of your information faster, easier, cheaper, year after year after year, just like iPhones are so readily available.
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: Now Our health is in our hands, not having to wait for the right specialist doctor to tell us it's just that's going to completely change in this next decade, right, we need to be staying on the forefront of that and making sure our skills can match where we're going, not where we've been.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: So that's a really interesting insight.
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: Okay, last question, jessica If you could not be, or if you weren't a pelvic PT, or if you weren't a health coach or in anything that you're a doctor at nutrition, if you didn't do any of that, what would you be?
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: I would be living in Cilento, italy, and making pasta in my own kitchen and retired.
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: You're like screw a second career.
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: I just want to be doing that.
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: I'll be farming, slash gardening in my little mountain house and taking walks on the beach.
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: Breaking wonderful.
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: All right, well, jessica.
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here.
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: Many parting words for the podcast listeners.
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: No, just thank you so much for having me and I'm really excited about the event coming up Pelvicon 2023.
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: And I really appreciate the work that you and Jessica are doing in general and with this event in particular, and I'm looking forward to seeing you there.
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, same.
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much, and thanks so much for your time today.
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: Well, nicole, what a great conversation.
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: I cannot wait until Pelvicon, when we actually get to hear both of her talks.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: I thought that was perfect.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: What she said about health coaching.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: Dude, it was so helpful to hear somebody that is basically an expert in that field, has created a certification program around it, explain what it is.
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: I feel like that is just.
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: It's huge for all of us to realize all of what she said.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: So here's the other thing that I loved about what she's going to be doing at Pelvicon she's the only person that has a part one and a part two, and when Jessica Rial and I were talking about us wanting to have each speaker have two different topics, we were super stoked to let Jessica Drummond do this part one and part two exhausted to a live.
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: It's going to be a super amazing approach to her talks.
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: There's too much to pack into one lecture and so it's going to be exhausted to a live.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: Part one Mind Body Medicine, approach to treating anxiety and everything else with people with chronic pelvic pain.
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: So I'm really excited.
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: It's going to be a great cliffhanger.
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: I love what she said too.
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: Just going back, all of you guys listening here are already health coaches.
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: It's just a question of how good are those skills?
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: How good are those skills?
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: I love the way that she described it.
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: Now, I think you're right, nicole.
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: I think that's become such a buzzword and it's almost like that's held up in opposition to what you guys are doing in pelvic rehab.
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: Oh, are you a pelvic rehab provider or are you a health coach?
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: It's like, well, no, by definition, if you're a pelvic rehab provider, you are a health coach.
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: Just a question of how well you're doing that.
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: So I cannot wait for her to bring her expertise to Pelvicon, for you guys to all get here Again.
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: If you need to check out, you should be following her.
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: She's doing amazing things.
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: She's got a new certification right, coming for Endo.
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: She's doing stuff with perimenopause and menopause.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: You can find all of that on the Integrative Women's Health Institute website.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: You can follow her on Instagram, obviously, but man, make sure, if you haven't already go out and get the recording for Pelvicon, it is going to be unbelievable.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: You're going to be able to go back and listen to these talks again and again.
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: I think you're going to get so much out of Jessica's talk, but also everything from all of our other speakers as well.
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: So, guys, if you have questions, please reach out.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: If you're excited for Pelvicon, you damn well should be.
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: As always, feel free to reach out.
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: Dm.
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: Nicole, shoot us an email.
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: We want to keep this conversation going.
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: And let's continue to rise.