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Benjamin Smith on Why "Fixing Yourself" Is the Wrong Goal · Step Wise

0:00
SPEAKER_01: But I also love what you just said there too about uh not pathologizing.
0:04
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a a key differentiator in in some of uh this work for me too is I see and coming out of training in in psychology and and in sports psychology too, of kind of looking at what's wrong and how do we fix it.
0:20
SPEAKER_01: And that's how so much of our world operates.
0:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, and shifting more to what if you were already whole and you already had everything that you need inside of you, and we just need to create a little bit of space for you to access that?
0:33
SPEAKER_01: And that shifts the coaching relationship too from one where where you or I are trying to impose something on others or fix them to how do we just create the space for you and recognize and honor the sacredness that you already have?
1:04
SPEAKER_02: Benjamin Smith is a performance and wellness coach.
1:06
SPEAKER_02: He works with athletes, executives, and high-performing leaders to navigate the pressures of excellence with greater clarity, resilience, and purpose.
1:16
SPEAKER_02: With experience spanning Yale University, Fairfield University, and Canyon Ranch, his work integrates mental performance, emotional awareness, and deeper questions of identity and meaning.
1:28
SPEAKER_02: Benjamin has coached individuals across the leaders boarding healthcare, education, and leadership environment, translating research and performance psychology into practical, real-world tools.
1:41
SPEAKER_02: His approach goes beyond traditional performance coaching, focusing on the whole person and helping clients reconnect with a sense of purpose, alignment, and sustainable high performance.
1:54
SPEAKER_02: His work sits at the intersection of performance and the inner life, supporting leaders and athletes, not just in how they perform, but in how they live, lead, and make meaning of their experience.
2:15
SPEAKER_02: Um if you wouldn't mind, give uh give the listeners a you know 30-second thumbnail of you and your background.
2:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks, Frost.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate being able to have this conversation with you and so much respect for the work that you've done in the leadership space and and really helping cultivate uh the inner life of leaders.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: And and that's really the essence of my practice, as well as is helping folks understand what's happening inside of them when they're in performance settings, when they're in leadership settings, and recognizing that so much of who we are at our best starts from that inner place of knowing um what matters most to us and having the skills to access calm, confidence, enter into that flow state regardless of the circumstances.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: So that's beautiful.
2:59
SPEAKER_01: That's the essence hard work.
3:00
SPEAKER_01: It is really uh context dependent, it's different for each person.
3:04
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I see my work as how do I help people be fully alive and fully alive human beings, as uh Brene Brown just wrote in her newest book, are unstoppable.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: So how do we cultivate more of that?
3:16
SPEAKER_02: Beautiful.
3:17
SPEAKER_02: And uh we can put a pen in this one, I'd love to come back to it.
3:20
SPEAKER_02: I was thinking about this today.
3:22
SPEAKER_02: I'm curious to know how early um we can uh begin that work on young athletes and how do you do it?
3:32
SPEAKER_02: So I don't want to necessarily derail this, but I'd love to come back to that because I'm just curious as I'll get out that says, what a beautiful inquiry about how to bring our fullness to that performance moment.
3:43
SPEAKER_02: Athletics is super clear about that.
3:45
SPEAKER_02: Totally.
3:46
SPEAKER_02: Uh how do we how do we begin to do that in a very supportive way?
3:49
SPEAKER_01: So that's partly why I coach I coach high school football, and that's partly why I am in that space, uh trying to help cultivate that at a young age.
3:57
SPEAKER_02: So you and I have had this conversation.
3:59
SPEAKER_02: Um explain that to our listeners.
4:01
SPEAKER_02: How'd you start doing this?
4:02
SPEAKER_02: Like, what drew you to that inquiry sounds kind of consultanty.
4:07
SPEAKER_02: What drew you to that field of thought and like why?
4:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, part of it is like I don't feel like I fit quite in any field.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: And that's um that's been a challenge and a gift of of this work.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's really is as we were talking about, it's a sense of calling.
4:22
SPEAKER_01: It's it's kind of the knitting of threads that have been an essence of of who I am.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: Um so it really started uh for me back in high school as a young athlete, struggling with performance anxiety as a quarterback.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: And I get on the field and uh with the pressure of expectations and and the sense of I need to I need to be perfect, I gotta hit every pass.
4:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'd end up just throwing the ball in the dirt.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: And it was this disempowering experience of like, what's wrong with me?
4:50
SPEAKER_01: Like I can do it when nobody's there, and then the pressure's on, and all of a sudden, like I can't can't access my skill.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: So when I went to college, I was like, how can I understand how my mind works so that I I don't end up in those situations again?
5:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, but also so I can help other people um navigate that too.
5:06
SPEAKER_01: And as I wrestled with some of the performance psychology tools, breathing, visualization, imagery, all these great evidence-based tools, there's something more there that was just like this doesn't quite scratch uh the deeper level.
5:21
SPEAKER_01: And what I ended up coming up against is these questions of values, of purpose and meaning, um, and really about shame and vulnerability.
5:30
SPEAKER_01: You know, who I was as a young athlete was I had to perform for my sense of worth.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: And when I didn't perform, I didn't feel like I was worth anything.
5:39
SPEAKER_01: Um and that's that's kind of the extreme version of that's not necessarily what my mental talk looked like on the surface.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: But at the core, the the deeper fear was this existential fear of if I don't perform well, I'm not gonna belong.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna fit in.
5:53
SPEAKER_01: That led me into this deeper study of like, well, where do we find this grounded sense of confidence that can persist regardless of the expectations, regardless of the situation or or the environment we're in?
6:06
SPEAKER_01: And I've always been a very deeply spiritual person, and that's been part of my formation as well.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: And so I ended up turning towards some of the contemplative traditions and practices in our ancient wisdom and spiritual traditions.
6:19
SPEAKER_01: So uh people have been wrestling with these big questions for thousands of years.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: And modern psychology has some great tools, but uh the spiritual traditions and and especially these wisdom traditions um are the place that I turned for these this bigger question of who am I?
6:38
SPEAKER_01: Which I think we're constantly trying to navigate and figure out.
6:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, where do I belong?
6:43
SPEAKER_01: Um and what do I want to help create or bring into the world?
6:48
SPEAKER_01: For me and my kind of journey, a lot of this centered around kind of my four core values of courage, connection, compassion, and joy and figuring out how do I live into that more consistently?
7:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then how do I help others as well.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: My journey, thought I was gonna go to sports psych grad school and keep working in that space, uh, but actually made a little pivot and went to divinity school to study those spiritual traditions more fur fully.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: And then in the process of just been working with people in that high performance space, athletes, coaches, uh, executives, doctors, folks in the military, because these high performance spaces often reveal um the deepest parts of ourselves and our deepest fears or deepest concerns, and helping them cultivate what I see as kind of high performance 2.0 or um this second version of high performance that's not performance out for our sense of self-worth, where we have to constantly strive and achieve in order to feel good about ourselves and feel like we belong, but really about how can my performance be an artistic expression of my deepest sense of self?
7:57
SPEAKER_01: And that takes knowing who we are, what matters most, and then also the skills and development to be able to show that to the world, whether that's through uh the fine arts, through athletics, through our leadership, uh, through parenting, whatever it might be, these places where we can fully express ourselves from that grounded, uh confident place.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: So that's a kind of whirlwind tour uh for me, but but part of part of my calling.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, and and for me it's a it's deeply connected to this uh this true sense of self that I I feel um and then have felt in in community with with others and hoping just to draw out the best of others.
8:38
SPEAKER_02: For the the lay listener who could begin a journey into self and wants to access maybe the more accessible parts of the wisdom literature, what would you direct people to?
9:32
SPEAKER_01: That's a good question.
9:34
SPEAKER_01: Um as you can see, my library is backed.
9:37
SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the club, man.
9:42
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the club.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: It it really kind of depends on where people are coming.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: If they're coming from in the in a season of transition and and trying to figure out like what is my purpose, um, I often point people towards Let Your Life Speak by Parker Palmer.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: The irony is I just uh uh shared that with a a young friend, a friend who's a little bit younger than me, um graduating college, trying to figure out what's next.
10:06
SPEAKER_01: Um and as I recommended, I was like, I should go back and read that.
10:09
SPEAKER_01: And it's actually been a very fruitful experience for me uh this fall and kind of clarifying some ideas and and threads in my own life and and coaching work.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: So I really love Brene Brown's uh Dare to Lead and Um Daring Greatly, just starting to figure out what are some of the unconscious inner patterns around shame and resilience and um and courage that we can we can cultivate.
10:33
SPEAKER_01: Um so those are some some great spots.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: From the contemplative side, uh my my mentor and and good friend Frank Rogers wrote this super thin, tiny book called Practicing Compassion.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: And it really starts with uh mindfulness for what's going on in my body, in my mind in this moment.
10:53
SPEAKER_01: But then also, how do I cultivate a sense of self-compassion for whatever's occurring?
10:58
SPEAKER_01: So um, it's a very practical, very tangible, um, has some clear exercises.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's been just a huge resource for me.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: Um and I send that, send that off to a lot of clients and and friends.
11:12
SPEAKER_02: Excellent.
11:12
SPEAKER_02: That's that's wonderful.
11:13
SPEAKER_02: It's a wonderful reminder, and I'm gonna put a shameless plug for my you know current book that I'm working on called Honoring, which says, in today's collision of so many forces, how do we learn to honor ourselves, our treat ourselves with compassion and not come from those great unanswerable questions, you know, covered with shame and guilt and and so forth.
11:32
SPEAKER_02: And then from a cleaner relationship, now how do I honor you?
11:36
SPEAKER_02: You're different than me.
11:37
SPEAKER_02: You have different beliefs, you have different generational kind of mores and stuff.
11:42
SPEAKER_02: How do I listen deeply without judgment, without standing on the sidelines, but really can use that opportunity to connect deeply?
11:49
SPEAKER_02: And then at the same time, we still have, you know, the trains have to run.
11:52
SPEAKER_02: We still have to perform.
11:53
SPEAKER_02: That athlete has to be on the balance beam and perform to her her best.
11:57
SPEAKER_02: So how do we honor that?
11:59
SPEAKER_02: It's a kind of a tripartite relationship.
12:01
SPEAKER_02: And and so that's a wonderful remember reminder and and suggestion too, Benjamin.
12:06
SPEAKER_02: I appreciate that a lot.
12:07
SPEAKER_02: Um, I really so value the fact that you're this is not just an athletic practice.
12:12
SPEAKER_02: This is you're dealing with military leaders, you're dealing with corporate leaders, you're dealing with parents, you're dealing with all kinds of people, because at the end of the day, it's life.
12:21
SPEAKER_02: We are living this life, and we are trying to live the live it as the best versions of ourselves.
12:25
SPEAKER_02: So I appreciate that.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: I started in sports, and one of the reasons I love that I love sport for this uh purpose is that it's such an embodied, uh, clear manifestation of the invisible being made visible, of what's happening on the inside showing up on the in the outside.
12:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, but that happens in every spot, every place in life, every space, every performance setting, every uh friendship, every relationship.
12:55
SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, that's getting to this deeper core uh essence of what it means to be human and and what is a life well lived?
13:02
SPEAKER_01: And those are the two questions that that guide my my work and and practice and in my personal life.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
13:08
SPEAKER_02: You know, I've practice this uh on this credo of beliefs drive, behaviors drive performance forever.
13:14
SPEAKER_02: And that part of my practice um individually and collectively with with individual leaders, with individual athletes, with teams, with organizations is to really uncover the truly held, deeply, deeply practiced, deeply held beliefs.
13:28
SPEAKER_02: What is it that's driving your performance right now?
13:30
SPEAKER_02: Is it an unexplored fear that you've had since you were three?
13:33
SPEAKER_02: And you felt you know, I was I was an adopted child and I had this subconscious thing that if I'm not perfect, I'm getting thrown back.
13:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
13:41
SPEAKER_02: That little minnow is getting thrown back in the ocean.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:44
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, a lifetime of you know, need to be perfect and need to please others and stuff.
13:49
SPEAKER_02: On top of, I've got this practice, and that's an unexplored belief until I dig in.
13:55
SPEAKER_02: And once I can get to the point of being conscious about it so that I can make a more mature choice for my life, I'm driven by that.
14:05
SPEAKER_02: Um and yeah, it affects lots of stuff.
14:07
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, yes.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's the most beautiful and freeing work that we can do.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: And it's hard work, it's scary work, it's uncomfortable work.
14:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, and yes, once you can actually sit sink down to that, those deeper beliefs, all this freedom, choice, uh, agency opens up.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: Then we can stack any type of performance tools or breathing techniques and whatnot on top of that.
14:31
SPEAKER_01: But if you don't have that strong foundation and really know where you're coming from, then everything else is is just kind of uh you know, grasping to try to maintain this this performance that isn't isn't really steady.
14:45
SPEAKER_02: I love that.
14:46
SPEAKER_02: You know, I I had heard a lot of cynics talk about um you can't yoga class your way to mindfulness.
14:56
SPEAKER_02: You know, like there aren't enough breathing techniques if somebody's not mindful, but what they fail to look at is if you can explore the stuff underneath all that and use breathing or big meditation or nature baths or whatever it is as a mindfulness practice to stay in good place with yourself, then it works.
15:18
SPEAKER_02: I'm reading a wonderful book right now uh by Jen Fisher, uh former client, the first chief wellness officer of any major professional services organization on the planet.
15:29
SPEAKER_02: In there, Jen talks about the the hard work she had to do to convince an accounting firm, if you will, that wellness was important, that there and exploring those beliefs that held us back was a critical piece of that.
15:46
SPEAKER_02: Just wonderful.
15:47
SPEAKER_02: Um so Benjamin, deciding to do that and then getting your degree in divinity from Yale is a long way from setting up a private practice and doing that for others.
15:59
SPEAKER_02: What gave you the courage to step out and do that?
16:02
SPEAKER_02: And what were the obstacles you had to you have to overcome to get to the place where you are right now?
16:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a good question, and and one I'm definitely still wrestling with.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've I've worked with uh a major Division I university doing some of this work.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: I I also worked at Canyon Ranch um a retreat center where folks from all kinds of different settings were coming in the midst of transition, in the midst of loss and grief and and doing that work.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: And when that kind of that season kind of came to an end, I was like, you know, this is time to to branch out and and launch this uh as a private practice.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's still it's still an ongoing, unfolding experience.
16:43
SPEAKER_01: And and honestly, it's been the site of my inner work lately too, is is figuring out what um where do I find my people?
16:51
SPEAKER_01: Where are the people that um this work resonates with and uh are ready to go to those depths?
16:57
SPEAKER_01: And how do I do this in community too?
16:59
SPEAKER_01: Because I think so much of the coaching space is is often just one-on-one work.
17:04
SPEAKER_01: Um and we're really we really thrive in community, in person, in in real uh encounters.
17:10
SPEAKER_01: And so those are ongoing questions as as this uh shapes itself out.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: And then I've also had to figure out who am I as a coach?
17:17
SPEAKER_01: What is uh what are the frameworks and the the basis of how I approach this this work and and how am I helping clients move from one space to the other?
17:27
SPEAKER_01: Uh where are they coming from and and where do they want to leave and and how do we cultivate that path?
17:31
SPEAKER_01: And because it's so unique and an individual, um, it's very fluid, but there's also some, there's a roadmap that I I have on kind of where we're we're heading.
17:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's kind of kind of where how it's shaping up thus far.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: But it's it's tough work, it's it's hard work to to build that that kind of of a platform and business.
17:50
SPEAKER_01: But it's also the most life-giving, engaging thing that I found too.
17:55
SPEAKER_01: This is uh work that I've thought about doing for you know a decade and and really being able to do it with clients and just see them uh find that deeper sense of confidence, that deeper aliveness, and then watching how it transforms the world around them uh is j my greatest joy.
18:39
SPEAKER_01: That's that's why I do this.
18:41
SPEAKER_02: There will be people um younger than you listening to this podcast who will be contemplating a step out from where they are to an express a better expression of themselves, a more aligned expression of their lives and their practice.
18:54
SPEAKER_02: And I know that you're fairly early in the journey, but if you could make practical three tips for anybody considering doing to get to where you are now, what are those things that they should think about or do that have been most useful for you?
19:10
SPEAKER_01: I I mean the first is just develop your own form of a contemplative practice.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: And there are millions of ways to do that.
19:19
SPEAKER_01: And I can I'll give a few examples.
19:21
SPEAKER_01: Um, but find some place where you can create a little bit of stillness throughout the day to just check in on how you are and what's what's driving you, what are some of the underlying concerns or fears?
19:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, what are the things that matter most to you?
19:37
SPEAKER_01: And so that can be a journaling practice, uh, just sitting down with pen and paper and writing out your thoughts and and and emotional experiences.
19:46
SPEAKER_01: That can be a mindful prep mindfulness practice, sitting down and just kind of watching the breath or watching your bodily experience and your mental experience.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: That can be in conversation with a mentor or or a good friend.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: Uh, it can be in just a simple walk outside.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: There's so many ways into that, that kind of contemplative awareness.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, but really cultivating what my favorite quote around this from Walter Berghardt who's a Jesuit theologian, he says, contemplation is a long, loving look at the real.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: And I love that because we can do that in so many different ways, but what is it like just to pause for a second, to take a long look?
20:26
SPEAKER_01: Because we're running through our days so fast and things are happening fast and we're on our phones and there's information coming at us fast.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: What is it like just to start to slow down just for a moment?
20:37
SPEAKER_01: When we slow down, often we find we don't like what we are feeling or experiencing or thinking.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: And so that's where that loving look comes.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: What is it like just to hold this experience with compassion?
20:48
SPEAKER_01: That it doesn't have to change, it doesn't have to be better, you don't have to judge yourself.
20:53
SPEAKER_01: It can just be.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: And in that process, we gain just a little bit more insight into what's real.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: And he uses the capital R real, kind of a connection to the sacred reality that's ever present.
21:07
SPEAKER_01: What clarity comes from that long, loving look?
21:10
SPEAKER_01: Where we don't have to change or fix ourselves or our environment, but we can just pause and be with it.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: And the irony is often the greatest insights, creativity, uh, and the next step emerges from that space.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: And it's so clear to us once we take that space.
21:25
SPEAKER_02: The world doesn't operate at the speed of the soul.
21:28
SPEAKER_02: No, no, not at all.
21:29
SPEAKER_02: To access that, we have to slow way down.
21:31
SPEAKER_02: It's really interesting, so I don't want to interrupt you, but I've got two thoughts here.
21:35
SPEAKER_02: One is when you do your work, the real happens.
21:37
SPEAKER_02: And so your desire young people who are considering uh a move out of corporate world, maybe into a who knows, uh some sort of coaching practice or whatever.
21:48
SPEAKER_02: If you base it on real stuff, not I'm frustrated in the moment, my company's not paying me, you know, like this is not enough money in the world, and I'm gonna go out so I can have you know three-hour coffee breaks and stuff.
21:58
SPEAKER_02: I I exaggerate, of course.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: But start with something that is real, start with a real sense of who you are and connecting that to whatever the pursuit is.
22:07
SPEAKER_02: Second point, to the point of community and how important mentors are around us.
22:11
SPEAKER_02: Tonight at my house, sitting outside around a fire pit, are gonna be gathered somewhere between eight and fifteen men, uh, members of my community who've never done this before, but to a chance for us to just kind of slow down and breathe together.
22:29
SPEAKER_02: And it's not a men's group.
22:30
SPEAKER_02: We're this is a men's group, not a men's group.
22:33
SPEAKER_02: But most men that I contacted for this, who are I people I respect a lot and love in this community, have never done anything like this before.
22:41
SPEAKER_02: This is like they're going, is this therapy?
22:44
SPEAKER_02: No, we're not doing that.
22:46
SPEAKER_02: But just a chance to slow down, really, to get in touch with an awful lot of stuff.
22:50
SPEAKER_02: So anyway, yeah, no, beautiful here.
22:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I and our work never stops.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: No, no, absolutely.
22:59
SPEAKER_01: And I think there's a real need.
23:00
SPEAKER_01: And a real hunger for that right now.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: That's the thing I'm I'm so curious about is where, and for myself included, like where are the places where we can gather and have these conversations about what it means to be human?
23:14
SPEAKER_01: Traditionally, folks went to church or other religious spaces for that.
23:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, and people just aren't doing that as much anymore.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: And there's a whole host of real reasons for that and and good reasons, but that leaves us with this void of where do we go to do this in community.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: This life isn't made to be lived alone.
23:34
SPEAKER_01: And we really often find ourselves through the practice of speaking our story and sharing that with others and then hearing other people's stories too.
23:43
SPEAKER_01: And so to have some kind of unstructured or or loosely structured space uh just to be with one another, I think is is extremely powerful and a huge gift.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: And it's hard because you can't always measure the uh immediate ROI on that experience.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's powerful and those things really sit with us and and shift and change us.
24:04
SPEAKER_02: Benjamin, I'm curious, um give example, give an example, if you wouldn't mind, of a recent athlete you worked with.
24:11
SPEAKER_02: Um what was the presenting problem?
24:14
SPEAKER_02: You know, without getting into too much depth.
24:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, what did you do with him or her?
24:21
SPEAKER_02: Uh, what have you seen?
24:22
SPEAKER_02: What do they struggle with?
24:23
SPEAKER_02: What did they succeed with?
24:24
SPEAKER_02: Just if you could walk us through one of those cases, it would be helpful.
24:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I had a uh pro soccer player recently who is just pivoting into a new phase of his career, signing a bigger contract and um stepping into a different role on a team, um, new coach, and he'd played with so much joy and ease before and and really this kind of childlike playfulness.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: And then he got into this new setting, new coach, new expectations, um, and the pressure was was quite a barrier um for him.
24:58
SPEAKER_01: And you could notice like he'd be playing okay, and then all of a sudden you'd hear his coach yelling from the sideline, and then just have start this mental spiral.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, make more and more mistakes and just start to beat himself up internally.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so we kind of just started with really what we've been talking about in this conversation of slowing down.
25:18
SPEAKER_01: And so rather than kind of combating the negative thought, negative thoughts with more negative thoughts of get away, self-doubt, like I don't want to hear from you.
25:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, just like letting it be there and noticing where did it showed up in his his body.
25:31
SPEAKER_01: By the way, was that hard for him to do that?
25:33
SPEAKER_01: You know, I found for a lot of athletes it is hard.
25:36
SPEAKER_01: Um for this person in particular, it he he was really able to access it, um, which was kind of it was a bit surprising for me, um, but really fun to be able to play with and and work with together.
25:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:46
SPEAKER_01: So he was he kind of noticed that that performance anxiety showing up in his uh chest and shoulders and this tightness, kind of protective posture.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: And we just stayed with that for a little bit uh and then asked some of the the those curious questions in that that long stillness of like, what's this sensation, what are these thoughts there for?
26:07
SPEAKER_01: Because all of these experiences that we often associate as being negative are there for some reason.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: And the more we kind of sat with and and explored that, um really kind of uh this theme, these themes of, you know, I don't want to screw up because I don't want to lose my contract and lose my livelihood and lose this thing that brings me so much joy and pleasure.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: And we also noticed this kind of second competing voice that was like, if we are anxious, then we're not gonna perform well.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: So we need to shut that voice up.
26:38
SPEAKER_01: And so this kind of back and forth internal conversation.
26:41
SPEAKER_01: And we were able to just kind of slow everything down and recognize like both both sides are trying to help you be at your best.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: And they may be doing it in ways that aren't uh the most efficient or effective, but let's just appreciate the way that your system is trying to make sure that you can perform at your best.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: And then we kind of pivoted and focused on what is it like when you are at your best?
27:05
SPEAKER_01: And connected to this early memory for him of playing soccer in the backyard with his parents and with his uh his sibling, and just this childlike wonder and awe and playfulness, uh, just let that kind of run through his whole body.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: And you instead of that tight posture, it's this open, expansive chest and open-hearted stance, we just let that kind of move through his whole body and noticed the differences between those feelings.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: And then we kind of close the session thinking about how can you tap back into that space when you go back onto the pitch and recognize, you know, you're probably gonna have those other voices that are the anxious and the don't be anxious voice.
27:49
SPEAKER_01: But now that you have a relationship with them, you know how to navigate that.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: And you have this inner strength, this inner confidence and clarity that you can reconnect to and you have those sensory memories, sensations and experiences that are that are really in your body of what it means to play free and and easy.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: Um and so left that that session going off with uh some more tools, um, but also a deeper understanding of what um the kind of underlying fears and concerns were that we've been talking about in this conversation.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: Instead of just, you know, breathe in for count of four and out for count of six, and it'll be fine, uh, which I've noticed doesn't work.
28:33
SPEAKER_01: It's not not quite as effective.
28:35
SPEAKER_01: A real understanding and and developing that self-compassion for all of those inner parts of themselves.
28:41
SPEAKER_02: Aaron Powell Not disparaging performance coaches, because they're they provided, you know, kind of great insights and great help for many, many people and athletes over time.
28:49
SPEAKER_02: What might a more traditional performance coach have done differently than what you did?
28:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've I've seen a lot of in the kind of self-talk is like, oh, if you have a negative thought, just uh try to push that away and replace it with a positive thought.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: And in my experience as an athlete, this didn't work because I would, you know, I've I'd have that kind of like don't mess up thought, and then I'd be like, uh I can do this, but the I can do this thought was is was pretty a weak voice and it didn't instill very much confidence.
29:18
SPEAKER_02: Two angels that you have different voices in your shoulder.
29:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: So so being able to really kind of earn the the right to say, like, I can I can do this and draw on those moments of of past success, um, but also not disparage all the other voices that are that are there because they're there for a reason.
29:40
SPEAKER_01: And so being able to understand that and and offer a little bit more self-compassion for me, I think, is is a little bit of a different approach than um tools that that regulate the nervous system or uh setting the right goals, um, all really important work.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: But I think that comes after this this deeper work of who am I at my best, what matters most to me.
30:01
SPEAKER_01: And uh for this soccer athlete we've been talking about, he really was able to go back out um seeing soccer as a form of self-expression, a form of artistry of his deepest gifts, right?
30:13
SPEAKER_01: Um and and so for me, it's it's helping people notice like what are those deeper gifts and what do you want to bring into the world?
30:19
SPEAKER_01: And how can we we bring that that to light?
30:22
SPEAKER_01: Um and that's a little bit different than just um you know, I'm I'm struggling to perform to this high level that I need to, and I feel like I need to because other people are counting on me and uh just this really anxious, fear-based form of performance.
30:35
SPEAKER_02: Excellent.
30:36
SPEAKER_02: That's a great example.
30:37
SPEAKER_02: Let's so let's come back to my initial questions.
30:40
SPEAKER_02: Coming from a pure sense of self, an unencumbered sense of self.
30:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:45
SPEAKER_02: In my book, my terminology, kind of having a clear stream in which you can apply your energies and passions and talents and visions and all that kind of stuff.
30:54
SPEAKER_02: How soon can we start that thinking process methodology with an athlete?
31:01
SPEAKER_02: And how do we do that with younger athletes?
31:04
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think about this true sense of self as something that we are born with.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: This is our innate birthright to be whole, to be complete, to be able to tap into creativity and curiosity, compassion for ourselves, and compassion for others.
31:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so the way I've I've found it it often works is that it's at those young ages where whether it's from our parental figures, whether it's from our first encounters on the schoolyard, uh, we start to incorporate, oh, it's not okay to be fully me for some reason.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't fit in the social contract.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: And then we start to armor up and build kind of this divided life between who we are on the inside and who we are on the outside.
31:49
SPEAKER_01: And this is kind of core to Parker Palmer's work.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so the invitation as we mature is how do we um find that adult form of wholeness that integrates who we are on the inside and who we're expected to be on the outside?
32:04
SPEAKER_01: This work can start at any age, right?
32:07
SPEAKER_01: And and sometimes often the younger we are, the less layers of protective armor we've accumulated.
32:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so when I'm thinking about as a coach of young athletes in in the uh volunteer as a high school football coach, um, how do we let them continue to flourish from that sense of play and from that sense of growth?
32:30
SPEAKER_01: And so that doesn't mean not pushing them or challenging them, um, but it means allowing their gifts to flourish, recognizing that and naming it back to them.
32:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's helping them recognize that, you know, defeat doesn't equate to your self-worth and building a culture around them that really supports them.
32:49
SPEAKER_01: Um and so I've been fortunate to be a part of some amazing teams the last couple of years where we struggled at the beginning of the year, but the kids really bought in to the process and bought into each other.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: And by the end of the year, we're pulling out games against the best teams that we uh really had cultivated the that skill and expertise through the entire season.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it was that inner belief, that inner sense of confidence, and then the collective group pulling together around that confidence that allowed us to win those games.
33:20
SPEAKER_01: Winning wasn't a manifestation of you know feeling good about ourselves as a team, but it was a really an expression of who all these young people were together as friends, as companions, um, and as athletes challenging each other.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: So to circle back to your question, I think we can start this work at a young age.
33:38
SPEAKER_01: I think um creating cultures, especially as as adults around um young athletes that support their growth rather than their performance is a huge component of that work too.
33:52
SPEAKER_01: And as coaches, as parents, as uh fans, that's all work that we can contribute to as well.
33:58
SPEAKER_02: I had wondered because I thought that the personality formation had to be at a certain level for them to really understand, you know, kind of character formation and values alignment, what they really stood for.
34:13
SPEAKER_02: I started doing work with um athletes at this level as young as 18.
34:20
SPEAKER_02: And I used tools to get in there to, you know, like an Enneagram or something for them to begin to have a conversation about themselves and what they prefer.
34:29
SPEAKER_02: And that the when I would work with teams, I would always do stuff with or without the coaches, always with the coaches' consent to create a safe space for them to truly express themselves, what they wanted, what they feared, what they what excited them, all that kind of stuff.
34:46
SPEAKER_02: And but I've always wondered about that.
34:49
SPEAKER_02: Is there a requirement of some sort of emotional development past adolescence that we really require to do this?
34:58
SPEAKER_02: The coach that I did an awful lot of this work with would take an athlete and give me that troubled athlete and give another troubled athlete on her team to a sports psychologist, and then would see how they would perform in the comic.
35:16
SPEAKER_02: And I didn't find out about that until the second year, but uh and and and the person showed up for work and I, you know, like I said, I don't care about your pathologies, I don't care about how old you were when you're a potty trained, I don't care when you're standing on the balance beam.
35:32
SPEAKER_02: What thoughts are going through your mind?
35:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:34
SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about those.
35:35
SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about the limiting beliefs and the and the expansive beliefs and stuff like that.
35:40
SPEAKER_02: So it was uh it's always been a question of mind like how early.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I think I mean it's a live question for me too, and in kind of what age can can also have the language to talk about these things, even if it's already felt and experienced in their their being.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: But I also love what you just said there, too, about uh not pathologizing.
35:58
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a a key differentiator in in some of uh this work for me too, is I see and I'm coming out of training in in psychology and and in sports psychology too, of kind of looking at what's wrong and how do we fix it.
36:14
SPEAKER_01: And that's how so much of our world operates.
36:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, and shifting more to what if you were already whole and you already had everything that you need inside of you?
36:24
SPEAKER_01: And we just need to create a little bit of space for you to access that.
36:27
SPEAKER_01: And that shifts the coaching relationship too, from one where where you or I are trying to impose something on others or fix them to how do we just create the space for you and recognize and honor the sacredness that you already have and let that come to the surface and and flow through.
36:47
SPEAKER_01: Um that's a fundamentally different orientation and and really shapes uh, I think that for me at least the felt sense of being in relationship with someone.
36:55
SPEAKER_02: A much more appreciative approach than a deficit-based one.
36:58
SPEAKER_02: And if I could wave a magic wand, which I can't, I've learned.
37:03
SPEAKER_02: It's one of my great learnings that my life cannot wave the magic wand, but if I could, I would wave a magic wand over anyone who coaches another human being.
37:12
SPEAKER_02: That's a lesson that I would I would share with them about let's find out what works well, let's find out when they are at their fullest and their freest and their most activated and do more of that.
37:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
37:24
SPEAKER_02: Let's not hammer on them when performance, which is controlled by lots of context, when performance doesn't measure up, hammering on them is for your ego, not the athletes.
37:33
SPEAKER_02: How do we be more appreciative without lowering standards?
37:37
SPEAKER_02: So we can still have super high standards.
37:38
SPEAKER_02: So it's you know, this is you know, all of that kind of stuff.
37:41
SPEAKER_02: So I have a few kind of rapid-fire questions that I like to ask everyone.
37:47
SPEAKER_02: What is the one thing excluding family you're proudest of yourself for?
37:52
SPEAKER_01: Building communities where people feel like they belong, spaces where they can show up in their full self and and share that, and where I, as a facilitator and leader, can also do the same thing.
38:05
SPEAKER_01: Showed up vulnerably with the big questions, knowing that there might not be answers in in that time, but that we can really be with each other.
38:14
SPEAKER_01: Um that's been the most transformative experiences in my life and and the things I'm certainly most proud of.
38:20
SPEAKER_01: That's beautiful.
38:21
SPEAKER_02: Question number two What's the lesson you keep having to learn over and over again?
38:26
SPEAKER_01: It's so cliche, but dressing the journey and and the process and not getting the outcome.
38:32
SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, even in building a coaching practice, wanting to be at a certain place and and having all the answers and having things figured out, but um really just enjoying the journey and and savoring the people along the way and and the people in my life who I love, the people that I have the privilege of of walking with and coaching, um, and not taking that for granted.
38:55
SPEAKER_02: Aaron Powell You know, you're you're not immune from expectations about uh what should be.
39:00
SPEAKER_02: And oh yeah, yeah.
39:02
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to humanity.
39:03
SPEAKER_02: It's all it's all it only affects all of us, so yeah.
39:06
SPEAKER_02: And then the third question is if the younger youth showed up and tapped you on the shoulder, what would you say to them?
39:12
SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Since I've been young, I've always been kind of on on the next step.
39:16
SPEAKER_01: Like, what is what does it mean to be further along the path?
39:18
SPEAKER_01: And so I think I would just tell my younger self, like, you don't have to grow up so fast.
39:23
SPEAKER_01: Enjoy the enjoy the the space that you're in, play, have fun, um, and and savor each each moment along that journey.
39:32
SPEAKER_02: Aaron Powell I really appreciate your generosity of time and your thinking.
39:36
SPEAKER_02: I appreciate the work you're doing, obviously.
39:39
SPEAKER_02: It uh resonates very well and very deeply with me and and uh and my practice.
39:43
SPEAKER_02: I wish I had the insight and wisdom that you have gained at uh a much earlier age than I did.
39:49
SPEAKER_02: How do we draw people's attention to you?
39:51
SPEAKER_02: I know you offer a weekly resource guide.
39:53
SPEAKER_02: I've signed up for that.
39:55
SPEAKER_02: It's called A Life Well Lived.
39:56
SPEAKER_02: Um they can access you at um inner lifeofsport.com.
40:01
SPEAKER_01: And then the the weekly newsletter has been um really a joy for me to create uh a space to kind of combine all of my interests in performance science.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: So there's a uh summary of research and then also some contemplative practices uh and the things that I'm I'm reading and thinking about and the places that I've I'm seeing others in that that intersection um between those two disciplines.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: So a joy to to create each week and and send out and share with others.
40:28
SPEAKER_02: I will vouch for that.
40:29
SPEAKER_02: It's it is a useful resource.
40:31
SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, please uh please go to the website, sign up for the weekly newsletter.
40:35
SPEAKER_02: Benjamin, thank you.
40:36
SPEAKER_02: I appreciate you and appreciate the work you're doing and appreciate your time today.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
40:41
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Foster.
40:41
SPEAKER_01: It's been a wonderful conversation.
40:43
SPEAKER_01: Love the the back and forth on all things leadership, the inner life, and and what it means to be in community and be human.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
41:05
SPEAKER_02: I wish I had access to him earlier in my life, with his focus on helping leaders and athletes have the skills to access calm and confidence and enter into a flow state regardless of the circumstances.
41:19
SPEAKER_02: His work, you know, his calling, is helping people be fully alive and unstoppable.
41:25
SPEAKER_02: If I was an athlete, the parent of an athlete or emerging corporate leader, I'd sure want to know this guy and access his work through his website and newsletter found at inner lifeofofort.com.
41:40
SPEAKER_02: In my humble opinion, his wisdom is genuine, well beyond his ears, and his writing is beautiful.
41:47
SPEAKER_02: Check him out.
41:49
SPEAKER_02: He's a great testimony to my belief that wisdom is not fully reserved for society's elders.
41:55
SPEAKER_02: You know my mind from the table.
41:58
SPEAKER_02: Invite cool people to magic happen.
42:06
SPEAKER_02: Until next time leadership is worth your time.
42:19
SPEAKER_02: Help people like you, help people like me find the show.
42:23
SPEAKER_02: What we talked about today is worth something in you.
42:28
SPEAKER_02: There's a book called Leadership.
42:31
SPEAKER_02: Rethinking the true path of the Great Lady.
42:33
SPEAKER_02: That is the real title.
42:35
SPEAKER_02: It goes deeper into this territory.
42:37
SPEAKER_02: It's on my website, fostermobly.com.
42:41
SPEAKER_02: Check it out.
42:42
SPEAKER_02: And then designer for our email list to be notified when my next book, honoring it, goes into pre-sale in 2027.
42:49
SPEAKER_02: And if there's one person in your life who needed to hear this episode, send it to them.
42:53
SPEAKER_02: Not because we need the numbers, it's because they need the conversation.
42:57
SPEAKER_02: Set the table, invite cool people, make magic happens.
43:02
SPEAKER_02: I'm Foster Mobley.
43:04
SPEAKER_02: As always, friends, stepwise.
43:07
SPEAKER_02: Our music for season three is composed and performed by Montana musical legend Philip Aubert in the courtesy of Sweetgrass Music.
43:15
SPEAKER_02: Phil's recent passing was felt by many, including those of us associated with this podcast.
43:21
SPEAKER_02: If you're not familiar with Phil's Grammy nominated music, do yourself a favor and follow him on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your music.
43:30
SPEAKER_02: We thank Patty Auberg and Sweetgrass Music for access to this beautiful piece.
43:38
SPEAKER_00: Stepwise is produced, edited, and promoted by Zedis with support from Amber Gillard Consulting.
43:44
SPEAKER_00: You can find more episodes and resources at fostermobbly.com.
43:49
SPEAKER_00: And follow Foster on social media at fostermobly.
43:53
SPEAKER_00: We'll see you next time.