Latest / Devil Town / In the Woods | Chapter 3

Transcript

In the Woods | Chapter 3 · Devil Town

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This podcast is intended for mature audiences. Listener discretion is advised.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: And all the rest of them walked back in there.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: They never didn't say no more about her. That was
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: just mad. You could see the anger on her face.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: Did you ever see her again? Not after that? I
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: don't know what they do.
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: Do you see her the next day?
• 0:47
  Speaker 4: No?
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: I don't know what they don't for a body. They
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: just told me I wanted if we opened up saying
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: thing about what we say that they would kill us.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: I do the same thing those and we we're scared.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: And I still I'm scared.
• 1:04
  Speaker 5: Where you don't need to you're saying.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Around the time Kelly Wilson disappeared from the piney woods
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: of East Texas, some country folks in Gilmer got in
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: trouble with the law. The Curs, often referred to as
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: the Kerr Clan. There were a bunch of them, a
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: big incestuous family living in shacks and trailers and a
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: kind of run down compound on Cherokee Trace, the same
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: winding road where search parties would eventually comb the woods
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: for any sign of Kelly Wilson. The problems for the
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Curs started in the fall of nineteen ninety when one
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: of the brothers, this guy Wendell, left his wife Loretta
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: for a younger woman. Loretta reported Wendell to the authorities,
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: said he'd been abusing their four kids. The new woman
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: in Wendell's life, her name was Wanda. She brought her
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: own baggage. Wanda's brother, Lucas, was a molester too. He'd
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: abused Wanda's kid from her previous relationship with a guy
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: named Bad Jimmy. It was a tangled web. A caseworker
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: from Child Protective Services stepped in.
• 2:18
  Speaker 6: Yes, sir, Hey, my.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: Name is Wes Ferguson. I'm a journalist. I'm working on
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: a project about the Kelly Wilson case and looking.
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: For Ann Gore.
• 2:27
  Speaker 7: Is that you?
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: That was Anne when I knocked. You'll hear about her
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: throughout the series. Anne Gore, the caseworker, was a deeply
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: religious woman from Gilmer. The abuse she uncovered was more
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: than alarming. Thanks in part to Anne's efforts, Wendell and
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Lucas were arrested and they both got ten years probation.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: Less than a year after that slap on the wrist,
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: Wendell and his new flame, Wanda got married. Their wedding
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: took place on the Kerr family compound on Cherokee Trace.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Just days later, CPS filed to remove the kids from
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: the home of the convicted sex offender. In court, Wanda
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: also admitted that she had abused her own sons from infancy.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: It was all horrifying. By now, the investigation into the
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: Curs had sprawled throughout the family. Allegations went up to
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: the grandparents, Eugene and Geneva Kerr, a multi generational legacy
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: of incest and abuse. Some things about the case weren't
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: just appalling, they were bizarre. One night, Anne took some
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: of the Kirk kids to dinner. They had been singing
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: and playing games. On the drive back to Gilmer, one
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: of the young girls became very quiet.
• 3:38
  Speaker 8: All of a sudden, she got real serious. I want
• 3:42
  Speaker 8: to know how Anne fields about Jesus. Then she said,
• 3:47
  Speaker 8: do you like Jesus?
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: This is recreated from an interview and gave in nineteen
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: ninety five with contact an alternative newspaper and declined to
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: speak with me on them. So you're hearing from my
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: friend Beverly reading the voice of Ann.
• 4:04
  Speaker 8: I said, yes, I like Jesus. And she told me
• 4:08
  Speaker 8: she didn't like him, and I asked her why and
• 4:12
  Speaker 8: she said because he sexually abuses the angels.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: Anne was shocked. She asked, who in the world told
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: you something like that?
• 4:23
  Speaker 8: And she said, nobody told me that. I saw him
• 4:27
  Speaker 8: do it. I was an angel.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: By now there were more than a dozen Kirk kids
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: and stepkids and foster care. One day, they all went
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: to a birthday party. The children strangely began to chant
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: around the candles on the cake.
• 4:44
  Speaker 8: The youngest one said, the Devil's coming and he got
• 4:48
  Speaker 8: his fingers all perched up in a claw like form
• 4:51
  Speaker 8: and said he scratched me and he get blood.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: Hearing this, now, sure, it's kind of dark, but mostly
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: it just sounds like silly kids who might have watched
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: a scary movie or two. This child was only three
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: years old, though by now Anne was highly attuned to
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: other disturbing things the kids were talking about. As the
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: children kept opening up to Anne and their foster parents,
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: the stories became more gruesome, more explicit.
• 5:19
  Speaker 8: Eating body parts, drinking blood.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: Child trafficking, demonic rituals, killing babies in the woods. The
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: worst crimes were rumored to be happening at the Kerr
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: place off the dark trail of Cherokee. Trace Anne and
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: her caseworker colleague, Debbie Minshew, knew how to handle child
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: abuse claims. Sadly, those were all too common. The Satan stuff, though,
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: that was beyond their scope. That's when CPS brought in
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: a state cop, Steve Baggs, to take over the kr case.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: Bags had been involved in some recent investigations of murderous
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: cults and he was about to retire from the Texas
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Department of Public Safety. Needing backup, Bags turned to a
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: police chaplain from Louisiana named Brooks Flag, who fashioned himself
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: an expert on Satanic rituals. Bags and Flag the dynamic duo.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: They interrogate Wanda's brother, Lucas, who admits to being part
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: of a group that sacrificed children and babies. To prove
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: he's telling the truth, Lucas even takes a light detector test.
• 6:24
  Speaker 9: He told several girls that they had kidnapped, tortured, and
• 6:31
  Speaker 9: raped and eventually killed, and he passed the polygraph examined
• 6:36
  Speaker 9: with flying covers.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: That's Melvin Dodd, a Gilmer school teacher at the time.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: Melvin would become a key player in the Kelly Wilson saga.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: You'll hear plenty from Melvin in this episode. During a
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: search of the Kerk Place, cadaver dogs alerted on a
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: particular shed in the backyard.
• 6:54
  Speaker 9: And it had shackles in there where you could, you know,
• 7:00
  Speaker 9: like handcuff somebody to the wall, and there were cat
• 7:04
  Speaker 9: and nine tail whips in there and all kinds of
• 7:08
  Speaker 9: satanic stuff.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: The shed made the local news at.
• 7:13
  Speaker 10: A storage shed belonging to the Kerr families in the
• 7:16
  Speaker 10: hands of investigators to night. Police are keeping mom about
• 7:19
  Speaker 10: where the shed is and what they'll do with it,
• 7:22
  Speaker 10: but forensic experts believe the shed will undergo a battery
• 7:25
  Speaker 10: of extensive tests for evidence.
• 7:27
  Speaker 11: Partial listing of what they found inside and are labeling
• 7:30
  Speaker 11: as evidence. Inside the shed a pickup truck toolbox also
• 7:34
  Speaker 11: found on the floor and walls of the shed were hair.
• 7:37
  Speaker 11: Hair was also found in a wood rail and rope,
• 7:39
  Speaker 11: and there was a cat of nine tails made of metal.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: The investigators were closing in building their case. From Imperative Entertainment,
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: I'm west Ferguson. This is Deviltown. This is chapter three
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: in the woods. Talking to folks in Gilmer, I keep
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: hearing whispers about the Kerr family, about Sergeant Brown. Other
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: prominent names that come up repeatedly, and I'm trying to
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: check out all of them. Hardly anybody wants to talk
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: on the record, and I can't say I blame them.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: But there's an exception, John Melvin Dodd, the retired school teacher.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: Several Gilmer residents who wouldn't put their own names out
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: there said I should try him instead, seeing as Melvin
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: is a charter member of the Justice for Kelly Wilson Committee,
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: which we'll get to soon enough. So I called Melvin.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Here's a man who speaks his mind.
• 8:55
  Speaker 9: I'll tell you what you're taking on project. I hope
• 8:57
  Speaker 9: he makes some money. We were taking on a monstrous project.
• 9:02
  Speaker 9: I thought about writing a book about myself, but gosh,
• 9:06
  Speaker 9: I'm never dead, and I'm eighty years old. I'm not
• 9:08
  Speaker 9: going too now, but I guarantee I'll be very happy
• 9:11
  Speaker 9: to help you, really and truly. We're just kind of
• 9:15
  Speaker 9: scratching the surface.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: Back to that shed in the curves backyard. Shackles and whips.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: From what I've read, it was more like straps and ropes,
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: some rubber tie downs and insulated electrical wire and that
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: cat of nine tails, which is a little weird at
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: any rate. The investigators also discovered a long trail looping
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: through the woods behind the house, which they saw as
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: some kind of ritualistic footpath, and they thought it might
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: be home to shallow graves. By now the case had
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: expanded beyond the Kerr family. Wanda's sons claimed that one
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: of the neighbor kids had also been involved in the abuse.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: This seven year old kid named Raymond. Normally I wouldn't
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: name a minor victim like this, but Raymond gave the okay.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: CPS took Raymond and his little brother, who was just
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: a toddler at the time, and placed them in foster care.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: Their foster mom was named Barbara Bass. She had a
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: ton of kids in her care.
• 10:13
  Speaker 9: She had been the East Texas Foster Parent of the
• 10:18
  Speaker 9: Year I think the year before, and she had been
• 10:23
  Speaker 9: given custody of Raymond Smith during this and so she
• 10:28
  Speaker 9: and Anne Gore and Debbie Minsh took Raymond to the
• 10:32
  Speaker 9: Dairy Queen And while Raymond is there eating, he casually says,
• 10:37
  Speaker 9: I don't know what happened to Kelly Wilson.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Seven year old Raymond claimed the curs had abducted Kelly Wilson,
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: the local girl that hadn't been seen at this point
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: in a year and a half. And not only that,
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: he said the curs they'd killed her.
• 10:52
  Speaker 9: That's how all of this started. Raymond Smith told about
• 10:56
  Speaker 9: how they would go out there and the beat Kelly
• 11:01
  Speaker 9: and a raped her and all this kind of stuff.
• 11:06
  Speaker 9: And there were other kids, mostly girls, who were brought
• 11:12
  Speaker 9: in by the truck drivers in the family, and they
• 11:15
  Speaker 9: would do this to them and kill them.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: And Gore and her fellow caseworker, Debbie Minshew shared Raymond's
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: claims with Gilmer police Sergeant James York Brown, who'd been
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: leading the unrelated so far search for Kelly.
• 11:30
  Speaker 9: James Brown is the policeman who was assigned to investigate.
• 11:35
  Speaker 9: So they took it to James Brown. Well, two or
• 11:38
  Speaker 9: three days later, they hadn't even heard from James Brown,
• 11:41
  Speaker 9: so they go see James Brown and he told them
• 11:45
  Speaker 9: you stay out in my case, if you don't, I
• 11:49
  Speaker 9: will destroy you and I'll destroy the kid.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: To be honest, it's hard for me to comprehend that
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: James Brown ever said this, but it's pretty much exactly
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: how En Gore has described their exchange in that interview
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: she gave for contact newspaper Brown it seems wanted no
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: one coming close to his investigation. By now, the investigation
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: into the Curs was really heating up. It was August
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: ninety three going into September. The Curves were heading toward
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: a criminal trial on dozens of sex abuse charges.
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: Now I got a phone call from I believe it
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: was Anne Gore, who was with the Job Protective Services.
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: She told me that they had a bunch of molestation
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: cases involving an extended family in Gilmer, the Curves, as
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: well as some other folks who were associated with them.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: This is Shane Phelps. At the time, he was an
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: Assistant Attorney General for the state of Texas. Shane had
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: just been named the chief of a brand new division
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: in the AG's office, set up to assist local prosecutors,
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: and they need extra help.
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: So I asked her, you know, what kind of cases
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: are we talking about? What are they going to trial?
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: Because this is the kind of thing we did. I mean,
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: the attorney, the district attorney of that jurisdiction, Upshire County,
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: apparently discovered that he had a conflict and so he
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: almost at the last minute said I can't handle these cases.
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: As it turned out, there were some forty five indictments
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: involving about six or seven people, which is a ton
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: of cases. I mean, that's an extraordinarily complex and difficult
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: case to prepare and get the trial or trials. So
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: when I asked her, well, when is this thing except
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: for trial? As I recall, it is very quickly. It
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: wasn't the next week, but it was very It was
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: on the trial dock and already it may have been
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: a month out, and I just said, look, I've got
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: a capital murder case I'm handling right now, I'm staffing
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: this office. I'm just taking over. We just can't take
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: that case of that magnitude on at this time. Was
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: there anything about the Satanics at that point, No, No,
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: it was just a molestation, sexual assault, indecency with a
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: child involving these children. She didn't give me any details
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: since she certainly didn't mention anything at all about the
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: Satanic stuff. She did mention that they had made contact
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: with a lawyer named Scott Leiford. I think he was
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: out of Galveston. It was a civil lawyer.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: Scott Lefford was indeed a civil lawyer, but he'd worked
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: on child abuse cases earlier in his career. With Shane
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: Phelps unable to help, Lyford was appointed special prosecutor. The
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: first thing he did was appoint Bags and Flag as
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: special prosecutors. Next, Bags and Flag got named special investigators
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: for the Sheriff's office too, and just like that the
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: team had real power power to unravel the story.
• 15:00
  Speaker 5: It is about five minutes until six on Thursday, December
• 15:05
  Speaker 5: the ninth, nineteen ninety three.
• 15:08
  Speaker 6: We're with Connie Martin.
• 15:10
  Speaker 5: Also here is Debbie Minshew, Steve Baggs, Brookes Flagg, and myself,
• 15:17
  Speaker 5: Scott Leifert. We've been talking to Connie Martin on and
• 15:20
  Speaker 5: off most of the afternoon. Her lawyers here in the
• 15:24
  Speaker 5: jail and insisted with her on several occasions. And we're
• 15:28
  Speaker 5: going to go over again some things now that she
• 15:30
  Speaker 5: just told us and gotten off her chest.
• 15:33
  Speaker 12: And Steve, I'll that you y'all pick up where you are, Okay, Connie,
• 15:37
  Speaker 12: where are you gonna start? You wanna start at the
• 15:39
  Speaker 12: trace or at NTV where she was picked up.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Connie Martin, she was the common law wife of Danny Kerr.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: When a bunch of the curs were getting rounded up
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Connie was arrested too. You heard Connie at the top
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: of this episode. Here she is again talking with Steve
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: Baggs about the abduction of Kelly.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: Kelly got in a van, a white van with the MTV.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: It was right beside the video clubs.
• 16:09
  Speaker 13: We went from there out to Geneva's house on Cherokee Trace.
• 16:16
  Speaker 13: Danny and all of them was We was all sitting
• 16:18
  Speaker 13: in the kitchen. I was sitting beside Kelly. They asked
• 16:22
  Speaker 13: Kelly if Danny and Wanda had asked Kelly if she
• 16:25
  Speaker 13: wanted to go outside, and she said yes, so they
• 16:28
  Speaker 13: followed her out the door.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: According to Connie, Kelly had been friends with Danny Kerr,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: so it wasn't strange for her to get into Danny's
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: van or for her to visit the Kerrs house in
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: the woods. Connie said they were coerced into group sex
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: after they.
• 16:44
  Speaker 13: Made up that they made a man wanted to put
• 16:46
  Speaker 13: her clothes back on, made us take the children back.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: To the finals.
• 16:50
  Speaker 12: Did you ever see her again?
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: Not after that?
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know what. They didn't move. Do you see
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: her the next day?
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: No, I don't know what.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: The don't tell m They just told men Wanda. If
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: we opened up say anything about what we say that
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: say kill os. They are very violent.
• 17:13
  Speaker 13: No, if they had threatened to kill money, if I
• 17:17
  Speaker 13: open my mouth, they have threatened to kill Wanda. I
• 17:19
  Speaker 13: had to sing marks on Wanda's throw, and I asked
• 17:23
  Speaker 13: Wanda what happened to her throw, and she would tell me,
• 17:26
  Speaker 13: I don't know.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: She was scared to tell me or what we heard
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: about Wanda earlier. She's the wife of Wendell Kerr, and
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: she'd already confessed to abusing her own sons. The Lifer
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: team grilled Wanda for hours. Eventually she cracked. The team
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: even escorted her out of jail so she could show
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: them around the Kerr place where their heinous crimes supposedly
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: went down. Wanda said Kelly was a birthday present for Geneva,
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: the matriarch of the Kerr clan. She said, Danny and
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: a few of the other Kerr family members pulled up
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: beside the movie store, and Kelly came over to their van.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: Here's Wanda with investigator Steve Baggs. The story she tells
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: is kind of similar to her sister in law Connie's.
• 18:10
  Speaker 6: Did she lean in the window now, she just stood there. Okay,
• 18:17
  Speaker 6: what did Danny say?
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: Danny ask her, which do you would you like to
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: go out and meet my mother, Geneva Man?
• 18:26
  Speaker 6: Then what did Kelly say?
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: Kelly did okay?
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: Sure, Wanda said. The van took Kelly to the Kerr
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: compound on Cherokee Trace. Everybody gathered around Geneva's kitchen.
• 18:38
  Speaker 6: How long were you there for? The conversation got the
• 18:42
  Speaker 6: van a few minutes.
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: Danny told Kelly that his mom wants to talk to her.
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: Kelly went over there as mom asked if she would
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: take her clothes off, she said no, and that's where
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: the arguments though.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: She was stunned.
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: She was stunned. Yeah, I didn't know what was going on.
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: Somebody spoke up said it was just a joke. It
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: was just picking on you, and asked would you like
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: to go outside and walk around to her? Cut off
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: a little bit?
• 19:17
  Speaker 6: Went out the door first I did, and you went
• 19:23
  Speaker 6: out the door and then came out behind.
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: You, Kelly, she was right there behind the story.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: Did you go out the back door?
• 19:32
  Speaker 6: Back door?
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: Always the back door stood outside right there at the
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: back backsteps till everybody got out there. Then it was
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: just like walking around it started out towards stuff.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: The peach trees.
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: It's out there, uh, past the clothesline a little bit.
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: Jenny would wanting to show her her peach trees, the
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: one you playing, right, Wanda, to show our page. Jason
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: to me at Saint Laco's Sun. Your mind occupied, That's
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: what it seemed like to me.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: Kelly and the Currs ended up deeper in the woods.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: At this point in the interview, Steve Baggs asks Wanda
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: about the names of other people who are over there
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: that night. Then the recording ends. So while Bags and
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Flag are doing their thing, you got to remember that
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: Sergeant James York Brown is still heading up the original
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: search for Kelly Wilson. Although Sergeant Brown was initially dismissive
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: of the curR connection, he went ahead and interviewed Wanda's
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: brother Lucas. Remember, Lucas had told Bags and Flag that
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: he'd been part of the cult that sacrificed babies and children.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: He'd even passed a polygraph. Now, though Lucas had a
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: different story, He told Sergeant Brown that he made all
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: that up. Brown also talked to Wendell Kerr. According to
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: the Special Prosecutors, Star witnesses. Wendell had been on the
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: scene when the Curs kidnapped Kelly. The way they told it,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: he was practically the ringleader of the Devil cult. But
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: Wendell was a truck driver. He'd been hauling freight on
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: the East Coast on the night Kelly Wilson disappeared from
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: the video store in Gilmert, Texas, and Wendell had the
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: receipts to prove it. Brown took his findings to Scott Lefford.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Now it was Lifford's turn to be dismissive. If the
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: Currs were capable of demonic sacrifices, they were capable of anything,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: and that includes the relatively simple task of forging a
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: bunch of receipts. Sergeant James Brown wasn't buying it. He
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: wouldn't back down.
• 21:46
  Speaker 14: I mean, I knew they hit false fied information and
• 21:49
  Speaker 14: falseified evidences stiff in those channel cases.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: That they were in on that at the time.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: That's Sergeant Brown just to be He's accusing the life
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: or team of falsifying evidence here. I'm not aware of
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: them doing that. Lots of different interpretations though, and I
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: told him that when.
• 22:09
  Speaker 14: They went to court, I don't justify an instant And
• 22:14
  Speaker 14: as it built up, he turned around and fretted me
• 22:16
  Speaker 14: that he would ruin me and destroying the whole livelihood
• 22:24
  Speaker 14: everything else politically and all.
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: Of course I.
• 22:30
  Speaker 6: Didn't think he could do it.
• 22:34
  Speaker 14: And when they lied about those things, and then they
• 22:38
  Speaker 14: lied about the evidence, you know, so we're gonna said
• 22:43
  Speaker 14: when you falsify evidence, you make up evidence, and you
• 22:46
  Speaker 14: present it to somebody like a grand jury.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: They don't know what they did do and didn't do.
• 22:53
  Speaker 6: And that's the sad part of that. They lied completely.
• 22:57
  Speaker 14: And then that's how they and some guy says Menian
• 23:00
  Speaker 14: to him because they said, well, if we didn't get
• 23:03
  Speaker 14: him killed, is why I looked at them.
• 23:05
  Speaker 6: They walk away as white knights.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Wait, was the Lifer team trying to kill Sergeant Brown?
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: I think he means they were trying to kill his case.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: Rival investigations were heading straight toward a collision. On the
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: one hand, there was Scott Lefford with investigators Bags and Flag,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: joined by caseworkers An Gore and Debbie Minshew, and on
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: the other Sergeant James Brown keeping his version of the
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: case to himself. Meanwhile, CPS had to do something with
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: all those Kerr kids. Some of the kids went with
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: Barbara Bass, the foster parent of the year who I
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: mentioned earlier in the episode. Others ended up with an
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: older couple named James and Marie Lappie. James and Marie
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: were actually so afraid of the Kerr family they fled
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: with their ten foster kids to the West Texas town
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: of Colorado City, trying to put a ton of distance
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: between themselves and the supposed devil cult In Gilmer. James
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: and Marie built a tall fence to keep the kids in.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: They homeschooled the kids and even brought in this guy,
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Dan Sullivan, to teach Sunday school.
• 24:25
  Speaker 7: And it became clear to Dan Sullivan that the children
• 24:28
  Speaker 7: had been deprived.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: She said that.
• 24:32
  Speaker 15: They had been through so much and she wanted to
• 24:34
  Speaker 15: give them a treat with moving and all the stress
• 24:36
  Speaker 15: and everything, and she was going to take them all
• 24:38
  Speaker 15: to the grocery store and let them get whatever they
• 24:40
  Speaker 15: wanted as a treat to eat.
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: And they went to the dog food section.
• 24:46
  Speaker 15: That was there a treat to them. Was she afraid
• 24:51
  Speaker 15: of having the children interact with other children when they
• 24:55
  Speaker 15: first came to Colorado City, Yes, absolutely, because the children
• 25:00
  Speaker 15: were taught to abuse other children and hurt and name
• 25:06
  Speaker 15: of their children. She told us that they knew the
• 25:10
  Speaker 15: older boys knew how to kill and field as a
• 25:14
  Speaker 15: baby a baby, a baby Yesterdir.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: Of the dozen or more Kirk kids placed in foster care,
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: one was a seven year old boy named Danny Kerr Junior.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: In November nineteen ninety three, his foster dad, James Lappie,
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: slapped Danny in the face and repeatedly slammed his head
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: against the wooden floor of their home. Other foster kids
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: who witnessed the assault described the back of Danny's head
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: in gruesome detail. Here's Shane Phelps again describing the injury.
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: I understanding was that there was a blow to his
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: head or series of blows to his head. It basically
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: reduced his head to mush and it was a horrible injury.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: The same day he injured Danny Junior, James Lappie wrote
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: a note claiming that he had merely fallen on the child,
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: while admitting quote if that boy dies, it will be
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: my fault. James Lappie then shot himself to death in
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: his own backyard. James's wife, Marie was next to die.
• 26:16
  Speaker 13: Two days later.
• 26:17
  Speaker 7: In his office at the Colorado City Record, reporter Wade
• 26:20
  Speaker 7: Warren was listening to his police scanner.
• 26:23
  Speaker 16: There's a nine to one one call at Saint Mandris.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: So I went up there and.
• 26:29
  Speaker 16: Found the I got there right after the police department did,
• 26:32
  Speaker 16: and in the JPE and found, you know, found that
• 26:36
  Speaker 16: he had committees apparently committed suicide with the woes of
• 26:39
  Speaker 16: Peel prescription drugs awful.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: As for poor Danny Junior, he was left severely impaired.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: From what I understand, he never recovered, spending the rest
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: of his days and assisted living. Danny Junior died in
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: twenty eleven at the age of twenty four. Okay, I
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: know I've thrown a lot of names at you. Here's
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: another Tammy manis Tammy was a bus driver for the
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: Kirk kids when they were in foster care.
• 27:09
  Speaker 17: I was driving a school bus in nineteen ninety two
• 27:13
  Speaker 17: for Gilmour Independent School District and I had some children
• 27:16
  Speaker 17: on my bus, small children, and mentioned something to the
• 27:19
  Speaker 17: effect of knowing what had happened to Kelly Wilson. And
• 27:24
  Speaker 17: I called and reported that to Sergeant Brown that evening.
• 27:28
  Speaker 17: I never heard anything back. Sergeant Brown didn't seem that
• 27:32
  Speaker 17: concerned as to where the children lived at that time,
• 27:35
  Speaker 17: and as the case progressed, you know, there was really
• 27:38
  Speaker 17: nothing until January of this year, whenever he was indicted.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: So Tammy was already suspicious of Sergeant Brown. When she
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: got her hands on some secret documents provided to the
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: grand jury, she saw a cover up. So Tammy got
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: together with our friend Melvin, the Gilmer school teacher, and
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: yet another investigative team was born.
• 28:01
  Speaker 9: I barely knew Tammy. She had driven the school bus
• 28:05
  Speaker 9: that my kids wrote on. We called it the Justice
• 28:08
  Speaker 9: for Kelly Wilson Committee, and the oldest and the youngest
• 28:13
  Speaker 9: Curs were members of our committee.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: Daughters, two of the Kerr sisters, were both adults when
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: all this was going down. They declined to speak with me,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: but I did read a couple of interviews they gave
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: back in the nineties where they claimed to have been
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: abused by their family members. Marie Kerr even talked at
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: a couple of news conferences.
• 28:35
  Speaker 8: My parents and my brothers put me through the same
• 28:37
  Speaker 8: thing as these kids are saying, and I don't I
• 28:41
  Speaker 8: want to check my nieces and nephews. This is why
• 28:45
  Speaker 8: I'm fighting so hard.
• 28:48
  Speaker 16: I get quote my parents, my.
• 28:49
  Speaker 9: Brothers, and you know, the both said, well, well, all
• 28:55
  Speaker 9: this child molestation was going on, we underwent it, their
• 29:00
  Speaker 9: satanic worship, every bit of this. So and yes, they
• 29:05
  Speaker 9: did kidnap and murder Kelly Wilson. So we wound up
• 29:13
  Speaker 9: meeting interviewing the people. And you know, when you're doing this,
• 29:21
  Speaker 9: most of the people were involved in drugs themselves. That's
• 29:26
  Speaker 9: why they knew about all of this. Nobody was ever
• 29:30
  Speaker 9: interested in what we were told. They were totally uninterested
• 29:35
  Speaker 9: in what we were looking for because they were trying
• 29:39
  Speaker 9: to cover up what was going on and trying to
• 29:41
  Speaker 9: blame Chris din for her murder.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: Chris Denton, you may remember, was a boyfriend of Kelly's.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: We'll take a closer look at him later. James Brown
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: saw Chris as a prime suspect and that was going
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: to be the focus of the investigation he was running.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: At first, it seems like Kelly's mom, Kathy, was inclined
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: go along.
• 30:00
  Speaker 9: With that hunch James Brown. Kathy totally trusted because James
• 30:05
  Speaker 9: Brown was coming by her house every day two three
• 30:09
  Speaker 9: telling her leads that he had how he was investigating
• 30:13
  Speaker 9: these and she just had total confidence in James Brown.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: Kathy changed her mind though, when details from the interrogation
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: of Connie Martin began to come out.
• 30:23
  Speaker 9: Connie Martin just sang like a bird and she started
• 30:28
  Speaker 9: giving details. Connie really noticed things and was mentioned things
• 30:34
  Speaker 9: that the average person probably wouldn't.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: For example, Connie was said to have noticed a particular
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: detail about the Rugby shirt that Kelly was wearing on
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: the night she disappeared.
• 30:45
  Speaker 9: She described the shirt she was wearing, and she said
• 30:50
  Speaker 9: it had rubber buttons on. Kathy knew then Connie Martin's
• 30:54
  Speaker 9: down truth because she was wearing a Rugby shirt and
• 30:59
  Speaker 9: Rugby shirts have rubber buttons on. Kathy knew that there
• 31:03
  Speaker 9: was no way in the world Knnie Marten would come
• 31:05
  Speaker 9: up with that detail unless Knnie Marten was there, So
• 31:08
  Speaker 9: she knew right the end James Brown had been lying
• 31:12
  Speaker 9: all this time. So that's when Kathy Carlson joined with
• 31:17
  Speaker 9: Tammy and Glenn Leech.
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: Then Lee.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Kathy was now a member of the Justice for Kelly
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Wilson group. Glenn was another member who was really good
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: at research. Melvin says the group kept hearing whispers about
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: James Brown. I wasn't able to confirm them but the
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: rumors were certainly flying around Gilmer. At one point, the
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: Justice for Kelly Wilson group got their hands on the
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: security camera footage from the bank where someone had made
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: the deposit after Kelly's shift at the video store.
• 31:47
  Speaker 9: Now, I've got a double first cousin whose son was
• 31:52
  Speaker 9: an Apple computer freak at this time. He was into
• 31:57
  Speaker 9: all kinds of graphics, crazy looking pictures and everything like that.
• 32:03
  Speaker 9: The boy, he was a guru when it came to
• 32:06
  Speaker 9: using an Apple computer.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: A double cousin is when two siblings from one family
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: married two siblings from another family, and both couples have kids.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: The son of Melvin's double cousin was able to enhance
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: the video quality, revealing more detail.
• 32:21
  Speaker 9: A van pulled in there, and a man got out
• 32:27
  Speaker 9: and made a deposit. And this man, I guarantee you
• 32:35
  Speaker 9: was James Brown in a Gilmer police uniform. Now, James
• 32:41
  Speaker 9: Brown always wore real dark sunglasses day and night. There's
• 32:48
  Speaker 9: no question it was James Brown. Well, now, this was
• 32:52
  Speaker 9: an old enough fan that the side windows were just
• 32:56
  Speaker 9: clear glass. You know, nowadays even the side winners are
• 33:00
  Speaker 9: so dark it's hard to see anybody in there. But
• 33:04
  Speaker 9: there was an old woman sitting right behind James Brown,
• 33:09
  Speaker 9: and she put her face up to the clear glass
• 33:14
  Speaker 9: of the window, and that was Janeva Kerr, the old lady.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: I'm still trying to get my hands on the security
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: footage so I can make up my own mind on
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: this one. But Cathy also found it suspicious that James
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Brown had refused to take part in a citizen search
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: she'd organized on the Cherokee Trace the month after her
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: daughter went missing. Was the proximity to the curR home
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: just too close for comfort?
• 33:40
  Speaker 7: My husband and I had conducted a citizen search in
• 33:42
  Speaker 7: February ninety two short left Kelly disappeared, with many, many,
• 33:47
  Speaker 7: many of the townspeople going with us and participating, which
• 33:51
  Speaker 7: was outside the city limits.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: And we asked Sergeant Brown, why can't.
• 33:54
  Speaker 7: You help us on this, and he said, it's outside
• 33:57
  Speaker 7: my jurisdiction.
• 33:59
  Speaker 17: He wouldn't on that particular search, which was the closest
• 34:02
  Speaker 17: to the guitar residents where they found where Life Its
• 34:05
  Speaker 17: team found some evidence human hair.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: Human blood.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: Melvin also deduced the Kurz motives for their alleged crimes
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: based on something he believes Connie Martin said when being
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: grilled by Bags and Flag.
• 34:18
  Speaker 9: Connie Martin talked about watchers in the woods. Out in
• 34:23
  Speaker 9: the woods where they had this. It was greatly worn down,
• 34:29
  Speaker 9: and they had people who were allowed to come there,
• 34:33
  Speaker 9: but there were others who had just watched from the woods.
• 34:38
  Speaker 9: And we interviewed several people who were watchers in the
• 34:41
  Speaker 9: woods and seeing all these satanic rituals take place. And
• 34:46
  Speaker 9: of course it's just like, you know, I used to
• 34:50
  Speaker 9: just be amazed at the children of Israel in the
• 34:54
  Speaker 9: Old Testament. Now why did they so easily, so quickly
• 35:01
  Speaker 9: referred back to paganistic worship. Well, flip about the major draw,
• 35:09
  Speaker 9: It was all of the sex they had. And that's
• 35:13
  Speaker 9: the draw of the satanic rituals, is all the sex
• 35:17
  Speaker 9: they have.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: Meanwhile, the Lifer team was also making headway in its
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: parallel investigation of the curs which now included Sergeant Brown.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: Bags and Flag took several statements from Gilmer residents who
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: claimed to have seen James Brown or a police officer
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: who looked like him with various members of the Kerr family.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: While excavating another clearing where the ritual sacrifices supposedly took place,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: they found a piece of bone in the dirt lab
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: testing suggested it was from the leg of a subadult human,
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: as in maybe Kelly. The deeper they dug into the case,
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: the more the Lifer team was getting spooked. One night,
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: they were having dinner when the phone rang. The only
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: sound on the other end of the line was of
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: a baby crying, which they found really disturbing. The Lifer
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: team ended up going into hiding, setting up headquarters at
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: an undisclosed location in the country way outside of town. Remember,
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: the Lifer team is just five people, a couple of
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: social workers, a retired state cop and police chaplain, and
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: a civil lawyer. They desperately needed back up.
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: At some point, Scott called me Scott Leifer, and I
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: had a long conversation with him and told him, here's
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: my home number in my office numbers.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: This is Shane Phelps again with the Attorney General's office.
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: Call me if there's anything you need at all. I'd
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: be glad to help you, because it was pretty clear
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: to me that he had limited experience in prosecution at
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: the time. Just based on our conversation, it sounded to
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: be like he needed him, which is why I offered
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: it and assistance here offer. So he called me at
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: one point, and I've talked him through some of the
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: complexities had on those kind of cases, and particularly on
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: the criminal side. It offered our assistance. You need anything
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: at all, call any time, We'll make ourselves available to you.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: That was in the fall of ninety three. One morning
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: in January, Shane was flipping through the day's news clippings
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: when a story caught in by surprise, k.
• 37:19
  Speaker 11: LTV, how do we seven, This is East Texas News
• 37:23
  Speaker 11: at six.
• 37:26
  Speaker 10: Arraignments today in the case of a missing gilmertine, good evening,
• 37:30
  Speaker 10: thanks for joining us.
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: My next recollection of becoming involved in the Gilmer case
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: was I think it was in January of that next year,
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: which would have been ninety four. I saw this article
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: about an indictment of all of these people the kurs.
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: I noticed Scott Leffer's name. I said, well, that's peculiar
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: because it was talking about indicting all these people for
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: death penalty offenses. I think it was murder, aggravated sexual assault,
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: aggravated kidnapping, and mentioned Kelly Wilson. I had no hint
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: of I didn't even know who Kelly Wilson was at
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: this time, so I kind of raised my eyebrows. Was
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: I wonder what's going on in Gilbert.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: Within days, a state politician from Gilmer named Bob Glaze
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: was reaching out to the AG's office asking for help.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: Team Lyford wasn't just coming after Sergeant Brown anymore. Lyford
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: and crew were setting their sights on anyone who stood
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: in their way, including the town's big wigs. Gilmer's civic
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: leaders were embarrassed and they wanted this case to go away. Shane,
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: Phelps's immediate supervisor, asked him to take another look.
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: The nature of the request was, you know, we need
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: somebody to come in here and stop what's going on,
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: because their perception was that Upshire County and Gilbert particularly
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: were being made a laughing stock across the country. That
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: was the first time I got the hint that there
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: was anything about, you know, satanic covens and things like that.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: And obviously that was so far afield of the original
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: conversation I had with Anne Gore.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: On the flight from Austin to Gilmer, Shane read a
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: report about the case. The report didn't say who it
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: was written by, but Shane has always assumed the author
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: was Scott Lefford, the special prosecutor, and it.
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: Was pretty wild. It told this tale of the Satanic
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: coven that was operating in Upshur County, and they were
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: kidnapping teenage hitchhiker girls, they were sacrificing babies, they were
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: they were in cannibalism. I mean, it was just wild,
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: and there was just enough in there that I thought,
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: oh God, if any of this is true, Oh this
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: is insane.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: If reading about the case was insane, just wait till
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: he landed in Gilmer. That's next time on Deviltown. Deviltown
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: is a production of Imperative Entertainment. It was written and
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: created by me Wes Ferguson. Executive producer is Jason Hoak.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: Audio engineering and editing by Shane Freeman and Jason Hoak.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: Original score is by Robert Ellis. Recording by Austin Sisler
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: at east Side Studios. If you like the show, leave
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: a review and don't forget to tell your friends thanks
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: for listening.