Latest / The Epstein Chronicles / Mega Edition: Michael Thomas And The OIG Witness Statement (Part 14-16) (5/16/26)

Transcript

Mega Edition: Michael Thomas And The OIG Witness Statement (Part 14-16) (5/16/26) · The Epstein Chronicles

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
• 0:03
  Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're gonna pick up where
• 0:06
  we left off with a Michael Thomas interview with the
• 0:10
  OIG Inspectors. Question, So, as far as visitors to the shoe,
• 0:16
  you said that there was redacted lane came at four,
• 0:19
  but you don't recall any another CEO coming in at
• 0:23
  five thirty am. Thomas, I don't question. No. And the
• 0:26
  food delivery, you said that's all outside of the shoe.
• 0:30
  You go out and get that yourself, Thomas, You go
• 0:33
  out and get that. I mean, it happens. I mean,
• 0:36
  if I'm not mistaken, it was just me and Noela
• 0:38
  up there. At some time the six count come. He's
• 0:42
  pushing it in when he comes along. But I don't
• 0:44
  remember seeing the six cart come in at that time.
• 0:48
  Question all right, Thomas, I don't recall. I don't remember
• 0:52
  if he was there or not. I really don't remember.
• 0:56
  Question Okay. And you said no one entered Epstein's cell
• 0:59
  between twelve am and six am that you know of, Thomas,
• 1:03
  not by my knowledge. Question and did you enter Epstein's
• 1:06
  cell at all between six and approximately six thirty Thomas? No,
• 1:11
  question and so never before the initial He gets cut
• 1:14
  off by Thomas the yes the initial question. Okay, do
• 1:19
  you know who the last person was to enter Epstein's cell? Thomas,
• 1:23
  I do not. Question. Okay, do you know what would
• 1:26
  be the purpose of someone for the last person to
• 1:29
  enter his cell? When you give people food? Do you
• 1:32
  do it through the food tray? Thomas? Food slot? Question?
• 1:35
  Food slot? So what would be a purpose to actually
• 1:39
  enter a cell? Thomas? During which shift? My shift? The
• 1:42
  overnight question? Yeah, so if you can think of a
• 1:46
  reason why people would go into an inmate cell, what
• 1:49
  would be the reason why someone would have Thomas. Most
• 1:52
  of the time, you don't go in an inmate cell
• 1:54
  unless authorized. The lieutenant has to be there to go
• 1:58
  in there. Into an inmate cell, Thomas, Well, if you're
• 2:02
  talking about during the morning watch, I can't go in
• 2:05
  there until the lieutenant comes. I wouldn't just go in
• 2:08
  there unless the lieutenant was in there. Question. Okay, so
• 2:12
  officers don't go into inmate cells unless lieutenants are present. Thomas, No,
• 2:17
  not for all. If an inmate is harming himself, I'm
• 2:20
  not going to wait for the lieutenant. Question. Yeah, that's understood.
• 2:27
  You know what I'm saying, but as far as just
• 2:29
  going into the cell, I'm not going to go in
• 2:32
  there unless the lieutenant is present redacted. Okay do you call?
• 2:38
  Do you recall any issues with any other inmates? On
• 2:41
  August tenth, twenty nineteen, during your shift, Thomas with me question? Yeah, Thomas,
• 2:48
  no question, you add, no any issues. Do you remember, like,
• 2:52
  were inmates complaining about the cells being left on or
• 2:55
  anything like that? Thomas, cells being left on? Question? Sorry,
• 3:00
  the lights being left on? Thomas, Nah, I don't remember.
• 3:03
  They can plan a lot. I don't really remember. Question.
• 3:07
  Do you know if any other inmates that were like
• 3:09
  or came from Suicide Watch or were supposed to have
• 3:12
  special attention or anything. Thomas No, I don't remember. Question,
• 3:18
  So you don't remember complaints about the lights being left on?
• 3:20
  Nothing Thomas, no question. How do the lights work? Are
• 3:25
  the lights left on down the range? Thomas? The lights
• 3:28
  are left on down the range, but all inmates cover
• 3:31
  up their lights anyway. But even with the lights witch,
• 3:34
  it doesn't cut off all the lights. It's a light
• 3:36
  switch as soon as you go into the tier to
• 3:39
  the left, and it shuts off the lights. But some
• 3:42
  work and some because you can't shut it off, and
• 3:45
  an inmate could still turn on his light. It doesn't
• 3:48
  shut the power off to him redacted. So they have
• 3:51
  access to their own interior lights Thomas, Yeah, they do. Question,
• 3:55
  but the outside lights that you have access to, they
• 3:58
  remain on. Thomas there on twenty four to seven. Question
• 4:02
  they do, all right? And is this like they have
• 4:07
  to remain on type of thing? Thomas, I guess so.
• 4:10
  Question okay, Thomas, I don't know. Question all right. Now
• 4:14
  we're going to talk about the medical emergency. Was there
• 4:17
  a medical emergency in the shoe on the morning of
• 4:19
  August tenth, twenty nineteen. Thomas, Yeah. Question why was the
• 4:25
  medical emergency called? Thomas? When I went up to the
• 4:28
  cell to feed the tear, when I knocked on the door,
• 4:30
  seen mister Epstein. I said to come to the door.
• 4:34
  Come to the door, and he didn't move, and then
• 4:37
  I said I'm coming in, and then I went in
• 4:39
  and he was hanging. Question Okay, when was the medical
• 4:44
  emergency called? Thomas? I called it immediately. I couldn't tell
• 4:47
  you the exact time. Question, but you called it in Thomas, Yeah,
• 4:51
  I yelled to Noel to get help. Question Okay, So
• 4:56
  You've gone to the door, saw what you saw, and
• 4:59
  you yelled to immediately Thomas. Yeah. Well, when I got
• 5:03
  to the door, I couldn't see what I was seeing.
• 5:05
  When I popped it open, I seen what I saw
• 5:08
  and I yelled for help. Question, so was the medical
• 5:11
  emergency called before you even entered the cell? Did you
• 5:14
  call Noel to call the medical Thomas? Yeah, I called
• 5:18
  for Noel to call for the medical emergency. Yes, question
• 5:21
  prior to entering, Thomas, Right as soon as I entered,
• 5:25
  Right as soon as I entered. Question Okay, so kind
• 5:28
  of like open the door and you said call for help. Thomas, Yeah, exactly.
• 5:33
  Question that type of thing and you ran in Thomas simultaneously. Yes.
• 5:39
  Question okay, so at what time? So if the medical
• 5:42
  emergency was called at six thirty three am, approximately what
• 5:46
  time was Epstein discovered? Do you think like a minute
• 5:50
  went by, two minutes, three minutes, five minutes Thomas. I
• 5:54
  can't tell you the exact time, but I know whenever
• 5:56
  I popped because I don't know what time the food
• 5:59
  card came the food cart came up. I don't remember
• 6:02
  if we set up all the tears first, or we
• 6:04
  set it up usually how I do it is just
• 6:07
  set all the tears, and then I come back to
• 6:09
  the first tier and then I put it on. I
• 6:12
  don't remember if I did so or not. But when
• 6:14
  I got to this particular when I got to his cell,
• 6:17
  I got there, I came with food. I put all
• 6:20
  on the walking food cart that's there and that you
• 6:23
  could take. Let's say it was fifteen inmates up there
• 6:28
  that you take usually in the morning. There's two trays.
• 6:31
  I walked up there. I had it all set up.
• 6:33
  So if the food cart, I don't know who was one.
• 6:35
  Certain people food cart comes early. Some people came up early.
• 6:40
  Let's say by the time I discovered by the time
• 6:43
  I would say. Let's say if I went in there
• 6:45
  at six yeld, the medical emergency at six oh one. Question. Sorry,
• 6:49
  So the medical emergency was called at six thirty three, Thomas,
• 6:53
  six thirty three, So I opened he gets cut off.
• 6:57
  So I'm saying, Thomas, the cell, if it's closer. I
• 7:01
  opened the cell at six thirty two. Question so approximately
• 7:05
  probably like a minute Thomas. Yeah, I couldn't have taken her,
• 7:09
  because I yelled to Noel. She yelled. It couldn't have
• 7:11
  taken more than thirty seconds for her to rush and
• 7:14
  yell for that emergency. Question all right, but you are
• 7:18
  the one that discovered Epstein in his cell Thomas, Yes,
• 7:22
  I am. Question okay? And who called the a medical emergency? Thomas?
• 7:27
  I would assume Noel, did she yelled it over the
• 7:30
  radio or whatever? Question? And that's what I was going
• 7:34
  to say. How was a medical emergency called? Did she
• 7:37
  call it on the radio? Did she have to call
• 7:39
  the police? How does it work? Thomas? She could have
• 7:43
  called on the radio. She could have did either, or
• 7:46
  she could have called over the radio, should need assistance,
• 7:49
  She could have had the radio over the phone. I
• 7:52
  don't remember exactly which one that she did, but it
• 7:55
  could have been either. One question. Do you know what
• 7:58
  she said? What did you tell her at the time?
• 8:01
  Did you say we need assistance? Thomas? Yeah? I said, yeah,
• 8:05
  medical emergency, need help, need help? Question need help? Thomas, Yeah.
• 8:10
  I don't know my exact words. I'm sure I just
• 8:12
  said to say we need help. Question Okay, When was
• 8:15
  the last time you saw Epstein prior to the discovery Thomas?
• 8:19
  Prior to discovery the day that I sat with him, No, No,
• 8:23
  probably the day prior the day prior when I fed him. Question,
• 8:27
  So the day prior Thomas, the day prior when I
• 8:29
  fed him. Question on August ninth, on your shift, sometime
• 8:34
  between I guess in the morning, around like six six
• 8:38
  thirty Thomas. Yeah, whatever, it's between six and six thirty. Question.
• 8:43
  So approximately twenty four hours before Thomas that I actually
• 8:47
  seen him. Question that you laid eyes on him? Thomas,
• 8:51
  Probably when I did my count like when you're talking
• 8:53
  about we actually fed, right when I did my account
• 8:57
  that night, the night prior the night when I did
• 8:59
  morning walk much question. All right, so you wouldn't have
• 9:02
  seen him. Did you feed him? Thomas? I'm sure I
• 9:06
  did the feeding question, but you don't actually put eyes
• 9:09
  on people when you do the feeding. Thomas. Yeah, when
• 9:12
  you do the feeding, so you have the feeding prior
• 9:15
  in that time redacted. So I'm just saying when you
• 9:18
  looked at him, he gets cut off by Thomas, Oh,
• 9:21
  looked at him. Besides he grabbed the tray and we spoke. Yeah. Question,
• 9:25
  So probably about twenty four hours before Thomas, twenty four
• 9:29
  hours prior to that, Yeah, that morning watch on six
• 9:33
  when I did the feeding. Question and did you notice
• 9:37
  anything unusual when you last saw him Thomas no question, No, Thomas, no,
• 9:43
  just took his tray. Question. Do you know who was
• 9:46
  the last person to see Epstein alive? Thomas, no question, No, Thomas,
• 9:51
  not there. Question. Do you remember hearing anything from Epstein's
• 9:54
  cell between the times of twelve am and six thirty
• 9:58
  three am? Thomas, no question. So you never heard like
• 10:01
  any kind of banging or rustling or you know, coughing,
• 10:06
  no movement or anything like that. Thomas, Uh huh. Question.
• 10:10
  All right, So you said when you discovered him, you
• 10:12
  were outside the door, you saw through the actual window,
• 10:15
  correct Thomas, Yes. Question. And that's when you noticed something
• 10:19
  was off? Thomas, I noticed something was off anything like that? Yes. Question.
• 10:24
  And where was Noel's standing? Do you remember? Thomas, I don't.
• 10:28
  I can't recall. Question was she near you? Was she
• 10:31
  on the same tier? Do you know if she was
• 10:33
  like somewhere else? Thomas, I don't. I really can't recall.
• 10:38
  I don't know. To just be specific, I really don't
• 10:42
  know where she was standing, if she was standing at
• 10:44
  the grill or if she was standing at the base.
• 10:47
  I don't remember. Question. When you were feeding the inmates,
• 10:50
  is she typically near you? Thomas No, she doesn't have
• 10:54
  to be. She could, Like I said, it all depends
• 10:56
  on how that day. Like I said, we were both tired.
• 11:00
  She could have been setting up the rest of the
• 11:01
  tears if I didn't set up the tears. So until
• 11:04
  I yelled for that help, that's the minute. And when
• 11:06
  I yelled for help, she reacted to my yell. Question,
• 11:10
  when you yell for help? Do you remember ever seeing
• 11:12
  her making sure she knew Thomas? I really can't recall. Question.
• 11:19
  You just remember yelling, Thomas, because I'm in the cell. Yeah,
• 11:22
  I'm in the cell at that time. Question. All right, Thomas,
• 11:27
  But I know she heard me. Question? You know she
• 11:29
  heard you. Do you remember like her responding or anything
• 11:33
  like I'm on it, Thomas. I don't remember questioned, received,
• 11:37
  copied anything. Thomas. I don't know. Question. So you just
• 11:42
  know that you yelled, Thomas. Yeah. Question. You don't know
• 11:46
  where she was, Thomas, I don't know where she was.
• 11:49
  She was just like at the grill or whatever. Maybe
• 11:51
  she was at the grill. I don't remember exactly where
• 11:53
  she was at. But I yelled, and I know she
• 11:56
  called for help because help came. All Right, we're gonna
• 12:00
  wrap up right here, and in the next episode dealing
• 12:02
  with the topic, we're gonna pick up where we left off.
• 12:05
  All the information that goes with this episode can be
• 12:08
  found in the description box. What's up, everyone, and welcome
• 12:12
  to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode,
• 12:16
  we're going to pick up where we left off with
• 12:18
  the Michael Thomas deposition with the OIG inspectors. Question, all right,
• 12:26
  so when did you see Epstein? This is where we're
• 12:28
  going to have to get into a little more detail. Thomas, sure,
• 12:32
  question what did you see? Thomas? He was hanging by
• 12:35
  a sheet? Question So what was he hanging from Thomas's bed?
• 12:40
  Question from his bed? Thomas, yes? Question did you see
• 12:44
  the picture? Mitchell? He needs a break? Question you want
• 12:49
  to take a break? Thomas? Yeah, I got another ten
• 12:52
  minutes here, I've got to go. Question all right, Thomas,
• 12:56
  the hour and a half is up for the thing. Question,
• 12:59
  so we have to ten minutes Thomas, yeah, question, all right,
• 13:02
  ten minutes and then we'll take another little break. We're
• 13:05
  getting close, but so this can help us with this
• 13:09
  when we were talking about the shoe and just so
• 13:12
  can we get these maps out of there? Do you
• 13:15
  mind just initiate initialing and dating this, Thank you, sir.
• 13:18
  All right, So here's some pictures I want to show you.
• 13:21
  Is this was Epstein on Eltier? Thomas? Yeah, see, this
• 13:25
  is exactly what I'm saying, Like this is down from
• 13:28
  m Tier, but yeah, he's on el Tier. Question Okay,
• 13:31
  where was his cell? Thomas? It would be back here?
• 13:34
  Question back on this side, Thomas. Yeah. Question all right?
• 13:39
  What am I looking at here? Are you able to
• 13:41
  tell Thomas? I couldn't tell you what tear it is,
• 13:44
  but it's just a hallway and that's the food cart.
• 13:47
  Question Okay, do you mind just initialing and dating that?
• 13:52
  Is this the door that you walked up to when
• 13:54
  you saw Thomas? If you say it is, okay? Question
• 13:58
  all right, so you can't even actually see that because
• 14:01
  it's crossed with this crime scene Thomas, Uh huh. Question
• 14:05
  do you have any reason to believe that wouldn't be
• 14:08
  the door that you went into where Epstein was discovered? Thomas,
• 14:12
  I have no reason to believe it. Question Okay, when
• 14:15
  you walked in, does this look like it was the
• 14:17
  same type of cell? Because all I'm going to ask
• 14:21
  is where he was hanging Thomas, he was hanging over here.
• 14:24
  To the side. Question. Okay, so is this a picture
• 14:28
  Thomas cuts them off. Yeah, because if you put them
• 14:31
  together like the bunk, it's over to this side. Question
• 14:35
  all right, So is he hanging from something in there? Thomas? Yeah, hanging.
• 14:40
  It was tied up right here, and then it ripped
• 14:43
  it down and I put him on the ground. Question
• 14:46
  So was this what he was tied to? Thomas? It
• 14:49
  wasn't just that little thing. It was more stringed and
• 14:53
  then that I ripped it down. Question all right, Thomas,
• 14:56
  maybe it's down there or something like that, Like I
• 14:59
  see string and stuff right here. Question do you just
• 15:03
  mind like marking where it was, where the noose or
• 15:06
  whatever the rope was tied Just for clarity what it
• 15:09
  was attached to, Thomas. It was attached to the bunk.
• 15:12
  It's attached to the bunk. Question Is this it here though? Thomas? Yeah,
• 15:17
  it's attached to the bunk, to this general area right here.
• 15:22
  Question so just circle that general area Thomas, yeah. Question
• 15:26
  all right, you mind just initially and dating that? All right? Thomas?
• 15:30
  Am I doing the same with this one? Question? No?
• 15:33
  Well you can if you want. I mean, you looked
• 15:35
  at it, and do you believe so did you take
• 15:38
  down this in somebody put it back up? Thomas, No,
• 15:42
  it was attached to them and it wasn't just that
• 15:44
  singular piece. It might have more rope to it. Question
• 15:48
  all right, there was more rope to it. Thomas, yeah. Question,
• 15:52
  but this is what what was hanging? He was hanging.
• 15:56
  I don't know if that's a sheet or a shirt
• 15:58
  or whatever the case may be. But yeah, Thomas, he
• 16:01
  was hanging from over there. Question from this area Thomas, yes.
• 16:05
  Question all right, you mind just initially and dating that.
• 16:09
  So when you went in you found him, he was
• 16:11
  still hanging Thomas, yes. Question And what did you do? Thomas?
• 16:16
  I ripped him down and I yelled for help and
• 16:19
  I started CPR. Question, So how did you rip him down? Thomas? Yeah,
• 16:24
  I just ripped the sheet down. Question You ripped the
• 16:26
  sheet first, Thomas, yeah. Question. And then did you like
• 16:30
  pick him up or did you throw him on the
• 16:32
  floor Thomas yeah? Or did he fall on the floor?
• 16:35
  Thomas kind of just like got him to the floor.
• 16:38
  I ripped it off like that, and then he dropped,
• 16:41
  of course, and then I laid him onto the ground. Question. Okay,
• 16:45
  so he dropped fall Thomas, Well, it wasn't as you
• 16:49
  could see, it's not that far if you can see
• 16:52
  by the thing like that. Where's the picture? Question right here?
• 16:57
  Can I have the picture back? Thomas? Oh? The ground
• 17:00
  right there? Question? Sure? Thomas, Like, if you take he's
• 17:04
  maybe like PLoP two, he was maybe about an inch
• 17:07
  and a half or maybe an inch off the ground. Question.
• 17:10
  So Thomas, like he was lower he gets cut off.
• 17:14
  So after you rip this thing, did he just fall first?
• 17:18
  Thomas just dropped down? Yeah. Question, he just dropped down Thomas,
• 17:23
  uh huh. Question, and then you moved them so all
• 17:26
  right Thomas, I didn't move them. Question. So you rip
• 17:30
  the sheet, he falls to the floor, and then you
• 17:33
  move him where you could start CPR. Thomas, Yeah, so
• 17:36
  I could lay him down and start CPR. Question all right,
• 17:39
  do you remember if it's like if anything of his
• 17:42
  body hit anywhere? Thomas, I don't remember. Question when he
• 17:46
  fell Thomas, No, I don't remember his body hitting anywhere. Question.
• 17:50
  The reason why we're asking is like with the autopsy,
• 17:53
  we've got to make sure of that. Thomas. Yeah, yeah,
• 17:57
  just like a drop down all right, so he basically
• 18:02
  do you remember if he landed on his butt? Thomas, Yeah,
• 18:04
  on his butt. Yeah, he landed on his butt here.
• 18:07
  Question he landed on his butt Thomas, Yeah. Question, but
• 18:11
  his head remained upright Thomas, Nah, I'm sure he gets
• 18:15
  cut off. I don't mean upright like looking at you,
• 18:18
  but I mean like his body remained upright. Thomas. I
• 18:22
  would guess he was just limped over. I would say
• 18:24
  just limped over. Question Okay, Thomas and I just he
• 18:29
  gets cut off and then you physically moved them Thomas
• 18:32
  to the floor. Yes. Question all right. Do you remember if,
• 18:37
  like anything hit harder than another when you moved them? Thomas,
• 18:41
  I don't really he gets cut off to the floor, Thomas,
• 18:44
  I don't remember other than that question. Yeah, no worries.
• 18:47
  All right, So he was still hanging, that was the
• 18:50
  position that you found him in. You ripped him off,
• 18:53
  he fell to the ground. You then moved him to
• 18:55
  the ground. What was he wearing at the time? Do
• 18:58
  you remember, Thomas pants? Question? Was he naked or anything
• 19:02
  like that? Or he still had his clothes on? Thomas,
• 19:05
  He wasn't naked. He wasn't naked. I'm going to say,
• 19:09
  I want to say he had a jumper on. He
• 19:11
  had his jumper. How they it's not all the way
• 19:13
  up to the top right here, but it's like around
• 19:15
  the waist. So maybe he had pants on. I do
• 19:18
  remember he wasn't totally naked. Question okay, Thomas. And he
• 19:23
  wasn't in his boxer shorts or anything like that, but
• 19:26
  he was he had no shirt on. He didn't have
• 19:28
  a shirt on. Question he didn't have a shirt on?
• 19:31
  All right? You said this was still around his neck
• 19:34
  when he fell off. Did that come away from his neck? Thomas? Yeah,
• 19:38
  he didn't have anything around his neck when he came up. Yeah.
• 19:41
  Question okay. And what was it that was around his neck?
• 19:45
  Question or answer? I mean, Thomas, it was either a
• 19:48
  sheet or a shirt. I don't know which one. It
• 19:51
  is a sheet or a shirt. I didn't really pay
• 19:53
  attention to it. Question. Now are the sheets and the
• 19:56
  shirts both orange? Thomas? Yes? Question O, so it wasn't.
• 20:01
  You weren't able to tell if it was Thomas cuts
• 20:04
  him off. I couldn't tell you if it was a
• 20:06
  sheet or a shirt. No. I didn't question okay, Thomas,
• 20:11
  I didn't look to see what it was. Now, what
• 20:14
  did he look like? Thomas white male? I don't know.
• 20:18
  Question was he like completely purple. Thomas, No, absolutely not.
• 20:22
  He was just he looked like he'd been hanging, like
• 20:25
  he just hung himself. It wasn't like he was red
• 20:28
  or blue, or his lips like a different color. It
• 20:31
  wasn't any of that stuff. Question. It looked like it
• 20:35
  happened just recently. Thomas. I mean, I'm not a doctor
• 20:40
  to tell you if I'm a doctor, I just he
• 20:42
  didn't look I don't say he looked any different. I mean,
• 20:46
  he just like he just hung himself. It wasn't no
• 20:49
  discoloration of anything like that. If that's what you're trying
• 20:53
  to get. And it's like like he just hung himself. Question,
• 20:56
  all right, so you don't he didn't look at that
• 21:00
  much different than when he looked when he was alive. Thomas, Yeah,
• 21:03
  didn't look question, he looked pretty much the same Thomas. Yeah.
• 21:09
  Question okay. And you said, or did you notice anything
• 21:12
  unusual in his cell when you went in? Thomas, No,
• 21:15
  I didn't. Question. No, And you said that you started
• 21:18
  CPR Thomas, yeah. Question what did you do? Thomas? I
• 21:23
  started chess compressions. Question just chest compressions, Thomas, Yeah, just
• 21:28
  chest compressions. Question any kind of like mouth to mouth Thomas. No,
• 21:33
  I didn't do any mouth to mouth. I was doing
• 21:35
  chess compressions. It took maybe about it wasn't that long
• 21:39
  before they came with the thing and they started doing
• 21:41
  all the other stuff. I can't remember the medic's name,
• 21:44
  the guy, I can't remember his name. Question all right,
• 21:48
  did he stay all kinds Was it all kinds of
• 21:50
  right there next to the bed? Thomas, Yeah, it was
• 21:53
  right there. Question did you have to move him out
• 21:57
  at all? Thomas, No, because they did. They he was
• 22:00
  doing the AED and everything right there inside the sell.
• 22:03
  Question so right in the corner of that bunk, Thomas,
• 22:06
  it's not in the corner. It can stretch out like
• 22:08
  you know, he gets interrupted. No, No, I'm saying for you.
• 22:12
  When you're doing your chest compressions, Thomas, No, when I'm
• 22:16
  doing my chess compressions, he's laying out right here a
• 22:19
  few feet maybe all right here, but he's laying about
• 22:23
  right here like about this way. Question okay, Thomas, without
• 22:28
  the wall, of course. Question But so he was on
• 22:31
  the floor, Thomas, he was on the floor. Question while
• 22:35
  you were doing the CPR, you didn't really have to
• 22:38
  move them that much, Thomas. I did not question after
• 22:42
  you like move them from the hanging position to the
• 22:44
  ground to the floor chess compressions immediately Thomas yes. Question
• 22:49
  all right, Did you do anything else Thomas, Uh, other
• 22:54
  than the chess compressions question Thomas No. Soon thereafter there
• 22:59
  was a whole bunch of stiff there. Question about how
• 23:02
  long were you doing the chest compressions for Thomas Maybe
• 23:05
  a minute or so, don't I can't really recall. Question
• 23:09
  you don't remember, Thomas, It seemed like the blink of
• 23:12
  an eye before everybody was around me. Question did he
• 23:16
  seem like he was dead at the time? Thomas, No,
• 23:18
  he didn't. Question he actually seemed like he was alive. Thomas.
• 23:23
  I don't really want to say dead or alive, but
• 23:25
  I was doing chess compressions. I mean, I'm not a
• 23:27
  doctor so anything like that. But I just know I
• 23:30
  just keep going. I don't know if he was dead
• 23:33
  or anything at the time. Question did you notice if
• 23:36
  he had like did you check for a pulse or
• 23:39
  anything like that? Thomas, The doctor was there. I know
• 23:42
  I was doing chess compressions. I didn't stop to check
• 23:44
  for a pulse. I let the medical staff do that
• 23:47
  because it was somebody from medical doing that question? So,
• 23:50
  how did you know to do chess compressions if you didn't?
• 23:54
  He gets cut off. I mean, I don't know if
• 23:56
  somebody looked like they're not breathing or anything like that.
• 23:58
  He's not talking. I'm yelling out his name, he's not responding. Question.
• 24:04
  So did you check for breath? Thomas? Yeah? I did
• 24:07
  a check for breath. Question, So prior to doing chess compressions,
• 24:12
  you check for breath? Thomas? Yeah, I checked for breath.
• 24:15
  Question and how did you do that? Thomas? I just
• 24:18
  when I would go like this, I was telling Epstein,
• 24:21
  like yo, Epstein, Epstein. He wasn't breathing. So that's my
• 24:24
  interpretation of checking. I'm yelling, he's not breathing, he's not
• 24:27
  calling to me, he's not saying anything. Question, So I
• 24:30
  guess what I'm asking Thomas. Did I put my hand
• 24:34
  over and check for a breath? Question? Yeah? Yeah, Thomas, No,
• 24:38
  I did not question, So you didn't like? He gets
• 24:42
  cut off. No, I was yelling for his name and
• 24:44
  everything to see if he was like doing like anything
• 24:48
  that in there. I'm like Epstein, Epstein, I'm pushing his
• 24:51
  upper torso. Question all right, So you didn't feel for
• 24:54
  a pulse or check for a breath. Thomas. No, I
• 24:58
  didn't do all that stuff, no question, all right, But
• 25:00
  you believed he wasn't breathing. Question. I don't know if
• 25:04
  he was breathing or not. I know he was just hanging,
• 25:07
  so I was just trying to get him to start. Question.
• 25:09
  So you saw him hanging and just your natural reaction
• 25:13
  then was to Thomas absolutely. Question. So you don't actually
• 25:17
  know if he was breathing. Thomas, I don't know. Question.
• 25:21
  You don't know if he was breathing, So you don't
• 25:23
  know if he was alive or not. Thomas, I don't
• 25:26
  know if he was alive or not. No question, okay,
• 25:29
  So just all right, so you didn't actually check for anything.
• 25:33
  You just went right to chess compressions Thomas. Yeah, went
• 25:37
  to chess compressions and yelling. I wasn't getting no response. Question, Okay,
• 25:42
  did you like hit him or anything first? Thomas? No question,
• 25:46
  like trying to wake him up? Thomas. I just kept
• 25:49
  yelling his name, and I'm shaking him and doing chess compressions.
• 25:52
  That should be enough to wake somebody up, for somebody
• 25:55
  to hey, hey like that. I didn't he gets cut off.
• 25:59
  Didn't they teach you, see though, Thomas, Yeah, that's part
• 26:02
  of the art. Question. Did they teach you that prior
• 26:05
  to doing CPR, you're supposed to like check to see
• 26:08
  if they're alive first, Thomas, prior to CPR, the standard
• 26:12
  model is check for airways and everything like that. But
• 26:15
  in the course of the moment, I didn't slow down
• 26:17
  and say, let me see, I check for responsiveness. And
• 26:21
  that's exactly what I did. When I'm yelling your name.
• 26:24
  That's checking for a response. Question, right, Thomas, I wasn't
• 26:28
  getting any response. Question Okay. No. The only reason I'm
• 26:33
  going more into detail is because you said you aren't
• 26:35
  sure if he was alive or not. Thomas, Uh huh,
• 26:40
  I understand question. No, I'm just trying to figure out
• 26:43
  if there's more questions I need to ask with regard
• 26:46
  to that, Thomas, No problem. At any time when you
• 26:50
  were doing chess, compressions or any of that, did he
• 26:54
  ever open his eyes or seem to take a breath, Thomas,
• 26:57
  Not that I recall. I don't remember, really, question okay,
• 27:01
  all right, didn't know, well ever enter the cell to
• 27:04
  assist you? Thomas, I don't remember. I remember seeing her.
• 27:08
  I don't know if she was in the cell. There
• 27:10
  were so many people in that cell in such a
• 27:13
  short period of time, so I really don't remember if
• 27:15
  she was one of the people or not. I can
• 27:17
  only remember actually two faces at this present time. One
• 27:21
  is the medical person I can't remember his name, and
• 27:24
  the other one is question, how do you spell redacted?
• 27:28
  Thomas redacted? Question? Okay, who is that? Thomas? Officer? Question?
• 27:34
  Just an officer that came in response Thomas, mm hmm.
• 27:40
  All right, folks. We're gonna wrap up right here, and
• 27:42
  in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna
• 27:44
  pick up where we left off. All the information that
• 27:47
  goes with this episode can be found in the description box.
• 27:52
  What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
• 27:55
  Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're gonna pick up where
• 27:58
  we left off with the Mike Thomas deposition with the
• 28:02
  OIG inspectors question and I'm sorry you may have said this,
• 28:07
  but I don't recall after you did chess compressions, you
• 28:11
  said you did it for like a minute before they
• 28:13
  responded Thomas, Yeah, maybe about a minute, nothing more than
• 28:17
  a minute. Question Okay, Thomas. It seemed like a flash.
• 28:22
  Question Okay, Thomas, it seemed like a flash that everybody
• 28:27
  was inside the room. Question okay, And when they came in,
• 28:30
  what did they do? Thomas? Once the medical staff I
• 28:34
  can't remember his name. Once he came and was doing
• 28:37
  chess compressions. I know I got a little exhausted and
• 28:40
  tired and everything like that. He was doing chess compressions.
• 28:43
  He put the aed on, and then that's about all
• 28:46
  I can remember. That the guy put the a ed on,
• 28:49
  and I know he told me to stand back. Question
• 28:52
  all right? And did you did he check for a
• 28:54
  breath or pulse? Thomas? I really can't remember. Question do
• 29:01
  you know when they put the aed on? Did it
• 29:04
  ever advise for a shock or anything like that? Thomas,
• 29:08
  I don't remember. Question you don't recall, Thomas, I don't remember.
• 29:12
  Question So when they came in, did you stay in
• 29:14
  the room or at that point? Thomas? Yeah, I stayed
• 29:17
  in the room. Question okay, Thomas, I actually helped to
• 29:20
  carry him downstairs. Question all right? And was that medical
• 29:24
  personnel Thomas, he was with us the whole time? Question
• 29:28
  and what was his name? Thomas? I can't really remember.
• 29:33
  Question No, Thomas, Question but he's the one who took
• 29:37
  over chess compressions. Thomas, Yeah, he took over chess compressions.
• 29:41
  He was in the room the whole time. Question all right,
• 29:45
  and you said you were trained on CPR though, Thomas, Yeah.
• 29:48
  Question okay, do you know when the last time you
• 29:51
  were trained on CPR? Thomas had to be Art? Question? Art?
• 29:57
  Are you always every year trained on CPR? Thomas? Every year?
• 30:01
  At Art? There's training? Question Okay, So like April of
• 30:06
  twenty nineteen would have been the last time Thomas, okay.
• 30:10
  Question um, all right, So after a medical emergency, called
• 30:15
  walk me through that a little bit in detail what happened?
• 30:19
  So he came, the medical person comes in, he starts
• 30:22
  going chess compressions. About how long is he doing that? Thomas,
• 30:26
  I don't know. I don't know how long he was
• 30:28
  doing them before he put the AAD on. I couldn't
• 30:31
  tell you how long he was on before he actually
• 30:34
  put the AED because the AED right on the you
• 30:38
  see the one right there and show I know there's
• 30:41
  one right there on the ninth floor. So I don't
• 30:43
  know how long ago that he was doing chess compressions
• 30:46
  before he actually put the AAD on. I couldn't tell you.
• 30:50
  Maybe thirty seconds, I don't know. Question And at that
• 30:53
  time did you believe that he was alive or dead? Thomas?
• 30:57
  I had so many things going through my mind. I
• 30:59
  was just told everything worked out. Question Okay, So what
• 31:03
  was going through your mind at the time, Thomas, A
• 31:06
  whole lot? What's going on? There's a man in front
• 31:09
  of me, you know what I mean? That's it, just
• 31:11
  that it's a man in front of me hanging. I
• 31:14
  just seen him hanging. Question. Yeah. Had you ever had
• 31:18
  to respond to something like that before, Thomas? Yeah? Question,
• 31:22
  So you've actually had to take people off from hanging
• 31:24
  on things? Thomas, No, I've responded to like I've maybe
• 31:29
  seen one other hanging, but they cut him down and
• 31:32
  like that. But he was actually gotten alive when they
• 31:35
  were indiscernible. But yeah, I've seen a few. Question Okay,
• 31:39
  and you have to do the same type of thing, Thomas. Well,
• 31:43
  nothing to where they had to put the AD on
• 31:46
  a person, just some chest compressions and they were revived.
• 31:53
  Question anybody else die from it? Thomas, not that I
• 31:56
  would recall. No. Question all right, but now you did
• 31:59
  say you ripped it down, you didn't cut it down. Thomas. Yeah,
• 32:03
  I just tipped it down, ripped it down. Question in
• 32:06
  the past, they actually cut it down, is what you
• 32:08
  just said? Thomas. I don't know. Question. Oh, I thought
• 32:12
  you just said that people were hanging. They cut it down. Thomas.
• 32:16
  Maybe if they cut it or if they ripped it down,
• 32:18
  I don't know whatever they had at their disposal at
• 32:21
  the time. Question Okay, though, did you ever have to
• 32:25
  he gets cut off by Thomas cut somebody down? Thomas, No,
• 32:31
  this was my first time. Question that was your first
• 32:34
  time ever being the first responder Thomas, yes. Question okay.
• 32:39
  And do they train you on that on if you
• 32:41
  come in and find someone hanging what you're supposed to do? Thomas.
• 32:46
  I don't remember specific training on like that, but I'm
• 32:49
  not mistaken it's life limb or something for the bureau
• 32:52
  or something. I know I'm not supposed to just let
• 32:55
  somebody sit there and hang. Question. No, I'm just saying,
• 32:59
  like they teach you how to like respond to these things. Thomas.
• 33:03
  Maybe it's something in art training. I don't know. Question. Okay,
• 33:07
  so you know CPR was done in art, but you're
• 33:10
  not sure if it was in a response he gets
• 33:13
  cut off by Thomas. It's in a particular response to
• 33:16
  if you see somebody hanging, you do this no question right, okay,
• 33:21
  but is that something that occurs a lot people inmates
• 33:25
  hanging themselves at mcc Thomas, not a lot, but you
• 33:29
  know sometimes people have You don't know what someone else's
• 33:32
  stressors are they going through at home or what they're
• 33:37
  in for. Question Yeah, I guess what I'm asking is like,
• 33:40
  does this happen like once a week, once a month,
• 33:43
  or once a year. Question mister Thomas, I've been there
• 33:47
  for fourteen years. He's been there a lot longer than me.
• 33:50
  I've seen maybe about seven hangings. Question seven hangings Thomas,
• 33:56
  Uh huh. Question so if you were to estimate about
• 34:00
  one every two years, Thomas, if you want to break
• 34:03
  it down to that question, Okay, What did you do
• 34:06
  after the medical emergency was called? Thomas? After I got
• 34:10
  him down, he gets cut off. No, I'm sorry. After
• 34:13
  they responded, what did you do? Thomas? After they responded,
• 34:17
  I helped carry him downstairs? Question you help them? Thomas? Yeah,
• 34:22
  I helped them on the stretcher carry him downstairs. Question
• 34:26
  now downstairs? He gets cut off by Thomas. To the
• 34:29
  medical floor it's the second floor. Question So if you
• 34:33
  went all the way from the shoe all the way
• 34:35
  to the second floor Thomas, yes, question okay, And you
• 34:38
  were with them the whole time Thomas, Yes. I was
• 34:41
  with them the whole time, and the medical staff was
• 34:44
  with me, and it was a bunch of other people
• 34:46
  in the elevator at the time. Question and what were
• 34:50
  you doing during that time? Thomas, I was holding the stretcher.
• 34:53
  Question because you were one of the people Thomas, yeah.
• 34:57
  Question So was it just you and someone else? Thomas yeah,
• 35:01
  me and three other people holding the stretcher. I don't
• 35:05
  know who else was in there holding the stretcher staff
• 35:07
  helping bringing him down. Question So it was an actual
• 35:11
  stretcher that you had to carry, not something like was
• 35:14
  moving them Thomas Yeah. Yeah, it's on a stretcher. They
• 35:18
  have stretchers on the wall, and you're like that you
• 35:21
  have to carry you get them to the thing, and
• 35:23
  then you just go Question did they continue life saving
• 35:27
  efforts Thomas the whole time? Question So while he was
• 35:30
  being moved in the stretcher, people were like doing compressions
• 35:34
  Thomas yep. Question was there anything like on his face
• 35:38
  trying to give him air or anything like that. Thomas.
• 35:41
  I don't recall. I don't really remember. Question. Okay, do
• 35:45
  you have pictures of that stuff? We actually have a
• 35:47
  ton of pictures for each Do you remember recall was
• 35:51
  this like? Is that in medical Thomas? It looks like
• 35:56
  I don't know if that's the ninth floor? Is that for? No?
• 36:00
  Right here, that's the MS question. That's the MS all right,
• 36:03
  So this isn't anything that's in the cell or anything
• 36:07
  like that what we're talking about, Thomas. No, that's not no, No,
• 36:11
  that's not question. This is, after all the medical Thomas. Yeah,
• 36:15
  that's all medical question. Do they know if any pictures
• 36:20
  were taken while you were doing this medical emergency? Thomas?
• 36:23
  I doubt it. I'm sure nobody stopped to grab a
• 36:26
  camera question. Yeah. No, just because we have all these Thomas.
• 36:31
  And again I'm not still I didn't mean nothing by
• 36:34
  indiscernible question. So none of these pictures have anything to
• 36:38
  do with you, Thomas. No question. Were you even in
• 36:42
  the room during that? Thomas? I wasn't in the room
• 36:45
  for none of that question. Okay, it doesn't look like
• 36:48
  we have any pictures of that stuff. So from the shoe,
• 36:52
  all the way down to the second floor. You stay
• 36:55
  with them. You were carrying the stretcher and someone was
• 36:58
  doing compressions yup. Question and trying to revive him. Thomas,
• 37:04
  So you said that responded to a medical personnel. I
• 37:08
  remember seeing and seeing the medical personnel, and I'm sure
• 37:12
  the lieutenant was there. Question. Do you remember who the
• 37:14
  lieutenant was? Thomas? No, but I can remember who was there.
• 37:19
  Question does lieutenant redacted sound familiar? Does that make or
• 37:23
  help you recall? Thomas? I mean maybe maybe he was there.
• 37:28
  Question so we can go back to that duty agent
• 37:31
  roster Thomas. It shows that he came on in the morning. Question. Yeah, Thomas,
• 37:36
  but you know the two hour prior, but he probably
• 37:39
  was there. Question So you think it was probably him?
• 37:43
  And do you remember making any statements after the medical
• 37:45
  emergency ride? Thomas. I don't remember what I said. I
• 37:50
  could have been saying a whole lot. I mean, like
• 37:52
  I said, I just seen a man hanging. Question. Sure, Thomas,
• 37:57
  you know I don't remember exactly verbatim what I said
• 38:00
  or anything. Question do you recall Noel saying we didn't
• 38:04
  do our rounds at three am and five am? Thomas,
• 38:08
  I don't recall her saying that. Question all right, Thomas,
• 38:13
  I don't remember seeing Noel after this, actually after I
• 38:16
  carried him downstairs. I don't even remember seeing Noel. Question,
• 38:21
  do you recall saying to Noel that we didn't do
• 38:23
  the rounds? Did you say that it was not Noel's
• 38:26
  fault and say we didn't do the rounds, we messed up? Thomas,
• 38:29
  I don't remember saying that. I could have said that,
• 38:32
  I don't remember saying it. Question, So you don't remember
• 38:35
  saying it's not her fault? Thomas, No, I don't remember
• 38:39
  saying anything. Like I said. I don't know what I
• 38:43
  said exactly from that time. It was three years ago. Question,
• 38:47
  all right. So my only question was, so that's the
• 38:51
  statement we have is that you stated she said we
• 38:54
  didn't do the rounds, and you said we didn't do
• 38:57
  the rounds, we messed up. It's not noel old fault.
• 39:00
  And I was just wondering why you would say that
• 39:02
  it wasn't her fault. Do you remember, Thomas? I really don't.
• 39:07
  I really don't. Question. Yeah, you were just uttering things, Thomas,
• 39:13
  just uttering things, Like I said, I don't remember saying that.
• 39:16
  I don't remember not saying that I don't remember that
• 39:19
  was said or who said that. I said that, Like
• 39:22
  I said, I don't remember saying it. Question, Okay, so
• 39:26
  it wasn't like the only reason that I asked is
• 39:28
  that it sounds like you were taking responsibility for the
• 39:31
  rounds and the counts, and I just wanting to know
• 39:34
  if there was a reason why you would have been
• 39:36
  taking responsibility, Like we said, you're both responsible, Thomas, indiscernible. Question.
• 39:44
  So I don't know why you take responsibility over her
• 39:47
  and saying it's not her fault. Thomas, I don't know
• 39:50
  why I said anything like that if I said it. Question,
• 39:53
  You don't know, Thomas, Like I said, I don't remember.
• 39:56
  There was a lot going on, all right. We're going
• 40:00
  to wrap up right here and in the next episode
• 40:02
  dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where we
• 40:04
  left off. All the information that goes with this episode
• 40:07
  can be found in the description box.