Latest / Skin Anarchy / E.385: Formulating Skincare That Merits Praise ft. MERIT Beauty’s SVP of Innovation and Growth

Transcript

E.385: Formulating Skincare That Merits Praise ft. MERIT Beauty’s SVP of Innovation and Growth · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
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• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, welcome back.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: So right before this episode, I wanted to again pop in, say hello, and also remind you, if you're listening to us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify Podcasts, I would love it if you guys went on there, left us a five-star rating, and a written review.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: That helps us so, so much, and it just really boosts us up in the charts.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I would really love it if you again you could go to Apple Podcasts or Spotify Podcasts, and it's really easy to find our show.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: All you gotta do is just type it in into Google Skincare Anarchy on Apple Podcasts, and it'll pop right up.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: So if you could do that, I would really appreciate it.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I also wanted to say, oh my gosh, almost happy holidays.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is crazy that we're so close to Thanksgiving already.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I literally was looking at my calendar the other day and didn't even think that you know it was November.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm stoked and I hope that you guys have had a chance to check out some of our top picks.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: I have posted them categorized by step, and this was only strictly the majority of facial care, by the way.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot more to come.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: So please stay tuned.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: This year I'm doing things a little different because last year I feel like I bombarded everybody with all of the top picks from every category.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: So this year we're taking a little slow and we're dispersing them out, you know, um, through the end of November.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope you guys are enjoying them.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, I urge you, go shop these brands, you guys.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: They're really great products and they're really, really tried and true.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: The whole process of selecting a top pick um product is extremely like detailed on our end because there's so many criteria that we've identified to be something that um falls under under the category of universality.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just you know, good for your skin in terms of inflammation, good for your skin in terms of nourishment.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of things that we considered when we made these selections, and I really urge all of you take them, you know, as a great you know, place to start.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you know, write some down, go to Sephora, pick up some of those products.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: You guys will really love the way your skin changes when you start using the products that do what they say they're doing, and that's exactly what we're trying to do with our top picks.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not gonna rant anymore.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Just wanted to remind you guys to stay tuned for more to come.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: And also, again, like I said, if you could go on to Apple Podcasts or Spotify Podcasts and leave us five stars and our written rating, it would mean the world to our whole team.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for all your love and your support.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it really keeps us going, and I'm really excited to see the growth and just constant upward trend of skincare anarchy.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks to all of you.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you love this episode and almost happy holidays.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Skincare Anarchy.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: This is Ekta, and I'm very excited today because I have such a wonderful brand with me.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited because, you know, as we dive into makeup for the holidays, makeup for the winter, it's really, really important for us to find brands that are very, I think, in sync with just how we want our skin to look overall, right?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: And in sync with our skin health.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Ayla Morin, who is the senior VP of Growth Brand and Innovation at Merit Beauty.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the show, Ayla.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to be hosting you.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for having me.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to chat.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I'm really excited because I love Merit Beauty.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: I love the idea of it being this minimalistic brand that's very, you know, it's pro-skin health.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like it's pro-skin, like be yourself, you know.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I can't wait to dive into that, Ala, but I want to learn about you first.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: I want to learn all about you and how you got involved with Merit and then also your career, you know, what led you to beauty?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: So beauty was actually kind of my first love in terms of career.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: I um started working in beauty when I was 15 years old.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: I got a job at a cosmetics counter.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: And initially I was only allowed to pack gift bags.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I did that kind of behind the counter for a few months.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then eventually there were open shifts.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I got to start doing floor sales.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's really where I fell in love with both skincare and makeup.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: I got so accustomed to learning about it and to kind of coaching people on routines, what would work for them.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, just loved the connection that comes with beauty, kind of having those conversations.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think back then it was as a teenager so clarifying and so amazing to understand what other people were doing.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: So that was kind of my early introduction.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then I actually went to university, kind of didn't really think about beauty, um, studied international relations, and then ended up transitioning into sociology.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um and that was a great start, actually, for then working in marketing and branding, although it's not the degree you'd think that would be most helpful.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it I really learned about kind of social patterns, understanding trends, understanding, you know, how to communicate and how to speak to people.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: So that was incredibly formative.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then, like every Bachelor of Arts student there's ever been, I planned to go to law school after, um, did my LSAT, started my applications, and I decided to take a year off before doing more schooling.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: And at that time, I applied for, I mean, hundreds of jobs, but I ended up with three offers out of university.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: And one was being the manager at a beauty counter.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the second was being a translator from English to French, and my French is really not that good.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: So that really wasn't a great option.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um and the last one was actually to be a marketing coordinator at a newly launched brand.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: So a really small startup.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I brought to that interview this whole kind of analysis of their social media and what I thought they could be doing better and how I thought they could break into influencer marketing, because this is, you know, quite a while ago at this point.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: So none of that was really being done yet.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's how I got into marketing.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: So that was handbags that charged your phone.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I worked on a number of small brands, many that were not successful up until um, I think six years ago when I met the founders of Missouri.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and at the time, Missouri was a very small brand with just a few employees.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I joined them as their first leader in marketing and really grew that business um into the icon that it is today.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so proud of that brand and that team as they are kind of continuing to scale.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then in 2019, I actually chatted with uh Catherine about merit.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: So at the time she, you know, called me and was talking to me about this concept for a clean beauty brand.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I've you know have so much respect for her work and was really excited at the prospect of working with her.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: But Clean Beauty wasn't really resonant for me.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think, you know, more than anything else, I was always focused on skin health, like you mentioned, on having that kind of really easy look that just made me feel like myself.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I kind of walked away from that conversation and was like, great idea, but there's so many beauty brands.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: So how could it really be different?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it was actually only a few months later that I was in a Sephora and I was walking around kind of looking for products, and there was nothing that really spoke to me.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it brought me back to that conversation of Catherine saying that she felt there was this white space.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I realized kind of standing in the store that I saw the same white space, that it was this elevated, luxurious feeling brand that was excessively priced, that was responsible in its sourcing and ingredients.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um and that I'd be able to identify with because we've seen this explosion of brands speaking to Gen Z, but there's been so little innovation and attention to Gen X and millennials.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: So oh my gosh, I love what you just said.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, please continue.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: I just I didn't want to interrupt you, but yes, I agree.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: No, of course.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um that that visit is when I called her back and I was like, you know what?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's something here.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think it could be really compelling and differentiated.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I signed my contract in I guess like early February 2020.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: I was living in Toronto at the time.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: I was going to move to LA.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then a month later, the borders closed and everything shut down because of COVID, right?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: When I started working on a makeup brand.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, yeah.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: I had a moment of, oh my God, what have I done?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it ended up being really incredible timing because I spent all of 2020 building out kind of the infrastructure for the brand, the business planning, the creative and the brand itself.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it it gave me time to see, you know, the massive changes in the market that happened in 2020 and allowed us to build a brand that launched in January 2021 that was really designed for that change.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I feel like, you know, I really love that you've had the background you've had because when you mentioned sociology immediately, my ears perked up because I feel like that's that's such a cool background to have.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, you know, I'm really glad you went that route.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: Just tell you that right now because it was an accident at the time, but I mean, I didn't get I had no idea where I'd end up, but uh still haven't gone to law school.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, well, you know, I mean, I I think you know, sociology is one of those subjects that I think people really need to uh start like learning a little bit more about because it really dictates, you know, it's societal norms, societal behavior dictates how we purchase things as consumers.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, when we really are sitting down to analyze marketing or, you know, um whatever the best step is for a brand when it comes to reaching its target audience, people need people don't pay attention enough to that aspect, I think.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: They really don't.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: They look at, you know, numbers and you know, TikTok trends and whatever, but it's like that's not really what's there.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so funny to me that you, you know, you brought up the exact point.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: I was having a conversation just the other day about this exact topic with the idea of targeting millennials more.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because we're a giant population of people now that are not looking for the TikTok, uh, Instagram real makeup look.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: We're looking for something that's realistic, you know what I mean?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're working people, we have to go to our jobs, we can't look like, you know what I mean, like we're we're headed to a Halloween costume party every day, you know.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I get it.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: I totally get it.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: And the white space is definitely there, you know.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I I want to ask you actually about because I know that Merrit recently launched um, you know, into the skincare realm, which I'm so excited about.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely love the um for everyone listening, the product I'm referring to is called the Great Skin Instant Glow Serum.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's absolutely wonderful and it really kind of feeds into this idea of what we're talking about, which is you're really targeting a specific audience because we don't have time, right?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, a lot of people don't have time.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd love for to like, you know, have this exuberant uh routine.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love for you to dive into what your opinion is behind this move.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I think what worked so well for Merit when we launched in 2021 is that you know, makeup had gone from being this huge hyper saturated category to sales falling, I think between 30 and 40 percent in 2020.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: So as we were looking at it, you know, there was a ton going on.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: And everyone will always tell you, you know, what a saturated space.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: Can we pause for just a second?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so sorry, Ayla.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's some noise in the background.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what it's that's a New York City fire truck.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay, okay, okay.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, it sounds like something magical is happening or something in the market.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but that's the magic of New York.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, perfect.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love it.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is it better now?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, much better.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Much better.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'll start again.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I think, you know, what we did well in makeup was understanding that it was a very saturated market, but also understanding where the white space was.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: So for us, I mean, I'm sure you remember in 2019, every brand that was launching was either celebrity backed or it was backed by a makeup artist.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: So there are some really incredible brands that were launched, but they were, you know, high pigment formulas.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: They required technique, they required a certain number of brushes.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: And while that really appealed to certain consumers, um, it didn't really make sense for you know, the consumer that we're really targeting and the consumer that I am, frankly, who just doesn't have time on a regular basis.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, God help me with a high pigmented formula because I can't blend for the life of me.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: So as we were looking at makeup, there was just such a clear need for impossible to mess up formulas, really intuitive and easy to use.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: And more than that, as we looked at clean, you know, as someone who is both aging and still breaking out, I was looking at makeup formulas and chatting with Catherine about it, going, you know, why is coconut oil the third or fourth ingredient in a luxury clean makeup product when for anyone who has reactive skin, that's going to be highly triggering.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: So the work in terms of skin started very early.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, Biba D'Sousa has been consulting with us long before we actually launched the brand.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think she's been Catherine's facialist for over five or six years.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: And while we are, you know, EU compliant and clean it's a fora, we also use a list that Biba provides to exclude further ingredients that can be triggering.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: So coconut oil is a great example.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, certain algae, just things that are potentially going to trigger reactions because it's such a simple thought.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: But to us, it was how do you create makeup that actually leaves you with your skin looking better instead of making it worse over the course of the day?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: So that obviously really resonated.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: It was, you know, I think a leading principle that led to Merit's huge success, um, especially in year one.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: And and great skin, we'd actually been developing at the same time.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: So development on that product actually began around 2016.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it went through many, many, many iterations, like most of our products do.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think actually it had 52 rounds, which is crazy when you consider we tried every single one of those.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um and it was the same thesis.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: It was, you know, skincare is so crowded, it's so busy.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we really tune into our own consumption.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I always tell people I am, you know, my best focus group because it's incredibly overwhelming.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: We went from pairing back makeup in 2020 and a loss of sales there to a huge increase in skincare sales and things like a 10-step skincare routine or mixing retinols and vitamin C is like there was so much different information that as a consumer, it's incredibly difficult to know what you should or shouldn't be doing.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: So, this skin, this uh makeup minimalism was kind of countered by skincare maximalism, if you will.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: And as I was looking at my own routine, I was going, you know, there's there's so much, so much information I couldn't even distill what I should or shouldn't be doing.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and great skin was the answer to that, honestly.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: From our perspective, we're not looking to compete with your um clinical products or your set routine or anything you're getting from a dermatologist.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: We think that obviously has its merit and has its place.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: But great skin was designed to give you really glowing, easy skin so that the minimalist goes on smoother, so that that glow remains throughout the day and to frankly make it easier and faster to get ready in the morning.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: So every detail from you'll notice the formula is super viscous, it sinks in really quickly.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's by design because I always hated when you would put on, you know, an oil-based um skincare product and you have to stand looking in the mirror for five minutes, just waiting for it to sink in.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: So it was all really designed based on our own routines and habits.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the formula itself is incredibly intentional, like everything we do.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's an incredibly short ingredient list.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we, I mean, I learned so much through this process working with our product development team and our chemists, but we included things like four types of hyaluronic acid to make sure that we're penetrating different layers of the epidermis.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, niacinamide, but only at 2%.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think a lot of marketing makes us think that a higher percent is always better.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: But what we learned is that 2% can actually be just as effacious as 10% uh without the irritation.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: So we did a ton of work um just looking into clinicals, actives, making sure that everything that was in there needed to be in there.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, the results speak for themselves.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think um, you know, the the common thought is that a makeup brand can't launch skincare, but great skin has had absolutely insane results.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's um already sold out on Sephora.com, Sephora.ca.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I think as of right now, the ratings are like 4.8 out of five stars, and um, we're just under a thousand reviews.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: So it's been incredibly successful.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it has been for the same reason that Merit originally resonated.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: It just fit this white space that the consumers didn't necessarily know they were looking for, but that they needed.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I want to actually comment on you made so many great points.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I I really think that what you said about the minimalism, um, you know, we we went from this, you know, minimalistic skincare to now we have skincare math.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: We're coming back to skincare minimalism now.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Now things are shifting again, you know what I mean?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm noticing the makeup.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: The other day I was watching a very famous TikToker and she was discussing actually, she was talking about merit, and she was like, Oh, you know, she was talking about your bronzers, and I love them, by the way, they're amazing.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: And um, she was like, Are these really like you know, foolproof?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like anyone can use them.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: And she was she started using them and she was like, Oh my god, they really are.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you can't screw this up, like at all.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just laughing because I was like, She got she, she's a Gen Z person, right?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: But she's like experiencing what I think millennials are always striving for, which is this idea of I just need it to work.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, can you just give me something that works?
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was a very cool moment for me, you know, just to see your brand like being used by somebody else that isn't used to that, you know, because we're seeing this move again, this shift again to now skincare minimalism where everybody wants a quick fix, you know.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's because people realize that, you know, what you had mentioned, that those 10 steps, those multiple, you know, products, yeah, they were doing something for your skin, you know, they were noticing a difference, but they didn't know what it was coming from.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: So then I think as consumers have started to educate themselves and become more, I guess, you know, intellectually inclined to understand why skin works the way it does, we're now coming to the skin minimalism, you know, rave.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I I mean, I'm kind of like on the on the fence about it, you know, that's a whole different topic.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: But I I do agree with the idea that if you know what your skin likes, stick to those ingredients and find one product that's gonna work for you.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I really love the idea of skincare for makeup application because there's not a lot out there.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, you guys have created a beautiful formula.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, I use um the Great Skin Serum, I use it under my makeup because it's a really, really it is, it delivers what you say it does.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's an instant glow serum.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, to your point about hyaluronic, I love that point because from a scientific scientific perspective, there's only so many receptors on your skin surface that can be utilized at any given moment.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, once you reach saturation of your skin barrier, it's not going to keep putting pushing things in.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's not, it's that's not how anything works.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: And also, a lot of times, topical application of things that are uh lower in dosing is actually better because it gives that molecule time to expand, time to work, time to do what it's supposed to do rather than just being excessively concentrated.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's it's very, very intelligent, you know, how you guys have gone about it.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: I I really enjoy the serum myself.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you have another five-star review from my end.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so glad to hear it.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, I think so much of so much of what's working for merit is making claims that make sense.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: So what I mean by that is the bronzer being impossible to mess up, you better believe we made sure it was impossible to mess up before we launched it.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and same with Great Skin, we made sure that we were delivering a product and spending the years on product development to make something that would generate those reviews and give you that instant glow.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think if anything, TikTok and social media is holding brands accountable to the statements that they make.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and ultimately, my goal is that we make much more conservative statements and we make sure that we really meet them and make sure that we're honoring what consumers are being marketed and then ultimately what they're using.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I absolutely agree with you.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's definitely hard these days for a brand to make claims and then, you know, just sit around and expect nobody to like check in on it.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're gonna get called up pretty quickly if you do that at this point as a brand, I think.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen that, you know, and and I like that as well.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: I agree with you.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think TikTok and these social media outlets do hold, you know, brands and founders and everybody accountable.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, at the same time, I also am starting to see the shift again to makeup, uh, you know, where I'm like, oh gosh, can we just stay on the skin part?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because honestly, healthy skin is where it's at, you know.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're done, when you get your skin to a point where you're not breaking out anymore, you're happy with what you have, your makeup is going to be naturally more minimalistic, you know.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I keep trying to tell people that, but unfortunately, you know, we I it's just the I guess it's just.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: the way things are, you know, the ebb and flow of makeup and skincare trends, you could say.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, I want to actually talk about the actual marketing around merit because I know that um when I found you guys, it was a while ago, but I didn't, I mean I've noticed you guys aren't huge on like, you know, shoving things in people's faces.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know how some brands like they're everywhere.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: You can't get away from them.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to talk to you about the actual like marketing technique behind merit and getting your target consumer because I would love to, you know, just hear about that in general.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean I have to remind people all the time that Merit's not even two years old.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: So when they haven't heard of us, it's it's probably because we're so young.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: But I would say, you know, my background's in in marketing, branding, creative and product.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: So really merging all of those things together.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what's worked really well at Merit is making sure that our storytelling is working holistically across all channels.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: So as we look at marketing, we still believe that the number one marketing tool in beauty is word of mouth.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: You're always going to trust a recommendation from a friend more than you'll trust a recommendation from anybody else because it's a trusted source.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: So that really has been our greatest growth channel, if you will, is making really great products, making sure we speak to them in an accurate way, and then ensuring people are happy with them.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: That is always going to be the most important marketing channel.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: And then on top of that, we've really focused on community.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: So partnering with content creators, working with editors, ensuring that people understand how to use the products and frankly hearing their feedback.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's really easy to kind of push hard on a message that you want to be received, but I think listening and taking back the feedback is equally as important.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: And then we are a really interesting brand because we are you know really strong in both Sephora and direct to consumer.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: So you'll see us kind of in in different ways, but I think social is absolutely an avenue that most people discover us on.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: And then you can always try the products in store at Sephora if you'd like to play with them.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then of course our signature bag has become Instagram famous in that it's you know on everybody's feed these days, but that's really become an important part of our business as well is focusing on the value that we're also delivering to customers through our marketing.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I mean I think that you know marketing has its place.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think a lot of times people just get hyper focused and the reason I asked you that question was it was very intentional because you know people get focused on this idea of like well it's all marketing hype you know it's all marketing hype.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like no I asked you that question because it's important for people to understand that everything is not marketing hype.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know there's a lot of truths behind why things go viral, you know, you could say I think that merit has definitely come to that point because I've seen a lot of people talking about it.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people notice the quality they notice the you know the ease of use the the functionality of your products and I think that that by itself is something that's it it speaks so much louder than any marketing technique could ever accomplish and I and I want to you know make sure people understand that about your brand because it's you know I do interview a lot of brands that do invest a lot of heavy you know heavy portions of their finances into marketing you know I'm not gonna lie I'm not blaming them and I'm not saying that's marketing hype, but you don't always need that is my point.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's my point because a lot of people listening in are entrepreneurs and that's why I'm making these statements you know so and I think that you know with merit um it it really is a show of a brand succeeding on its merit.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know it's it's it's something that is succeeding because it's working it's it's like you said addressing a real white space you know and with that with that in mind I want to actually ask you you know when you guys go into the idea or not the idea into the um whole process of formulating a new product coming up with a new concept what's that whole process like for you?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean do you really kind of do what you mentioned earlier which is like you know go into a Sephora or an Ulta and like see if this exists or like what's that process you know the initial steps of the process I guess.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah so I guess just to respond to your to your earlier question I think if there's anything I've learned through all of the fails failed startups that I've worked at and now a few successful ones, um product market fit and excellence of product is what drives your business more than anything else.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: So finding a white space, making the exact right product for that white space and making the best product is really the backbone of any business.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: You can you can scale as much as you want around that but that's what's going to drive your repeat rate and that's what's going to actually build a business that's going to have longevity.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: So when we look at product development we do it quite differently than a lot of beauty brands are doing today.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: We really aren't trend driven um we really are focused on making classic products that'll be on your vanity 10 years from now that are high quality easy to use have intentional ingredients and that we've really fully proof tested.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: So the serum is a great example of that we uh Catherine actually started development even prior to us speaking because she was looking for something that would give that instantaneous glow.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: And when I joined and we continued to work on the formula, we don't necessarily benchmark we don't really look at what other people are doing.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: I really believe in the space of product development and brand development frankly that having blinders is really healthy.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: Just focusing on okay this is the pain point we're trying to fix.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then from that pain point saying here are all of the issues that we'd like to tweak and then start to develop a formula based on that.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: And a great example is actually bronze bomb the bronzer that you were referencing.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I as I've said I'm not a makeup artist and I have had there's no product that I've screwed up more times than bronzer.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: And by that I mean I've had you know an orange forehead or a streak on my cheek, something not blended.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: It is it's just a it's a tough UX is what we found.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: So when we started to develop bronzer instead of looking at everything else in the market we sit down and we go, okay, what are we solving for?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: So first I wanted a really precise way of applying it because what I found is when it's a powder and you put it on a brush, I ended up with it all over my face, not necessarily creating shadow where I wanted it.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: So precision became the first one.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: We wanted a really sheer formula.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: So if you swiped it on and you blended it really quickly, it wouldn't really matter you'd never get that solid line it would kind of diffuse into skin really perfectly then on top of that there's been all this you know noise around contour versus bronzer warm versus cool and we decided to develop shades that were neutral.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: So they would do both.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: So you're never going to have a gray stripe you're never going to have an orange stripe they're really developed to just add shadow to your natural skin tone.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: And then the component itself you know bronzers have always been made in two shapes.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: They've either been sticks that are round or in palettes if they're powders.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: And instead of looking at what had been done we went okay so if we're we're aiming for precision here it needs to be thin enough to go under a cheekbone but then you want it to be wide enough to put across the top of your forehead without it taking forever.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: So as we were developing we started to go okay so an oval shape makes sense here and then actually the the design of the bronzer was inspired by a deodorant stick.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: So the way the bottom clicks as it moves up is exactly how a deodorant works.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what I mean about intentionality in formula but also in UX it's it's less about looking at what's on the market.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's much more about saying what are the unsolved problems and how can we address those problems in a really smart way on a product level.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then that's what drives the marketing and the story because once you have a great product that solves problems it's really easy to talk about it and to connect on that with other people absolutely I love that and I love how you walked us through that thank you so much.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean that's that's beautiful I love that I love that process I love it it's solution oriented that is you know the epitome of being solution oriented.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, you know you're right because as I'm looking at your bronzers because I've used I use them you know this is I'm the same way by the way with the bronzer I really screwed it up in the past you know I have I still to this day can't contour I won't lie I really can't whenever I try I look like a clown.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: So your bronzers have been uh truly a godsend for me as well you know I just as a consumer um because it they're so easy to work with and everything you described you know all of the components I notice them as a consumer you know I do like they're and it's hard to not notice them because it's so well thought out that when you're using the product you're like oh I like that oh I'm so glad it does that you know that kind of thing like it's like it's this moment and it's this uh experience that captivates you.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a point that I I really really love about brands in general is like when I find a brand that can do that as a consumer, I can say you've hit the nail on the head.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: You've done it because that's what it's really about in my opinion is consumer experience.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because when we experience things and we like them, we stick to them, we come back for more you know what I mean we develop trust we develop and this all goes back to that sociology thing right even a little bit of psychology is that we have this need to form connections as human beings.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: And believe it or not, even if it is with a product we form connections you know and your favorite bronzer is going to stay your favorite bronzer.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's just how it is especially with millennials.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I won't lie there the days of you know not being able to find even the right shade of foundation or bronzer are not long, you know, too far behind us, you know, I still remember them.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: So for me as a consumer as especially as a woman of color I stick to those memories you know growing up and so now when I find products that work, yeah, I I hold on to them forever, you know, I'm gonna come keep coming back as a consumer.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: So it's huge what you said.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's absolutely beautiful that your brand functions like that and you guys approach problems like that because right now even though we're screaming at the top of our lungs, oh my gosh, the market is saturated the marketers, it's still not being unsaturated anytime soon.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: So like you know the best thing we can do right now is to really weed out the really uh top of the line in terms of consumer experience brands from the ones that are just redundant, you know?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think merit really stands out to me.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: I love every product.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean you guys just there's thought in everything you've created.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean everything I've tried at least I've have there's not a single complaint I've had and that for me as a consumer is everything because that means I can trust you as a brand you know what I mean so that's amazing yeah so I I I love it you know I love everything you're doing and the new the new serum um the great skin instant glow serum everyone listening you really have to try this you guys it's really really great stuff and as Ayla mentioned you know it's very easy to use it sinks right in just like you said Ayla it's beautiful you know you wash your face you put this on it even works as a primer I was going to tell you that actually it works as a primer for me because it creates the such a smooth um feeling to your skin that whatever you put on top is like a very smooth application very easily blendable very easily movable in the way you need it to go and then you just you know do what you do and you go you know move on with your day.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I love it.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely I think that's all of our products are designed to solve multiple problems at one time.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: So hearing it's a a primer and a skincare product is is always amazing.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: And and I would say also just say from your your commentary around saturation, I always remind people that good design is really what gets you out of that.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean the best example is literally PC versus Apple, right?
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: We were all happy using PCs for the longest time and everyone was innovating on what existed and then when you take design and you don't look at what exists but you look at the problem that you're solving it instantly changes the user experience.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: So that's always how we thought about it.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: And that feeling you have of you know not being sure how to use bronzer or not feeling like you can find your shade, I think everybody has there's a fairly universal experience about not knowing how to use beauty products or feeling like we're not expert enough.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: And there are absolutely people who are incredibly talented and know exactly what they're doing.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I admire those people so much because that's an entire separate skill set.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: But that feeling you have and that I have is so incredibly universal.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I think the backbone also of product and business is finding what the sentiment is and finding a way to address it in a way that appeals to people on a personal level.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely I completely agree with you.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: And also you know just to even add to what you said, you know, we're not like you said we're not professional makeup artists.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: If everyone was Pat McGrath we would all look fabulous all the time you know like runway ready all the time but we're not we're we're just normal consumers putting on makeup and so to be able to feel like you've done it right and to be able to feel like you've done what you wanted to do and accomplish what you wanted to accomplish with your look is a beautiful feeling.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's that is instant gratification.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: And if you have a brand that's helping you do that and create this feeling of wow I did that right.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, you know I like the way I look you know I'm not too bad with makeup I can do this you know that's uh it's a beautiful beautiful thing and it really you know it always for me I don't know it just comes back to the idea of as a brand have you created a connection with me as a consumer if you can't make that connection I'm probably not gonna buy you you know your products again because it is about the psychology it is about the um immense amount of options that are available in the market you know we were talking about neutral undertones earlier right I didn't even know that I had a neutral undertone till like three years ago you know I didn't even know because I you know until I started watching makeup artists explain this stuff I had no idea so the fact that you guys even did that by itself is phenomenal to me because it makes so much sense you know if I use a cool you know cool based product on my skin I look crazy you know I look like I have rosacea like it just doesn't work out you know and so for us I think we're still not there yet as consumers where we're like oh my gosh I need the exact shade the exact you know color theory you know needs to be on point.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: Some of us are there some a lot of us aren't so for those of us who aren't let's just start at a neutral place.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's brilliant that you did that.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for doing that with the bronze yeah well for everyone listening this has been so lovely Ayla thank you so much for coming on the show I absolutely love merit I love the whole brand um you know I'm a huge fan obviously of the new launch into skincare I can't wait to see what you guys do next.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know what are you guys doing next if you can give us a teaser that'd be nice.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah so we, you know, we're kind of known for our intentionality behind launches.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: So since we launched the brand in January 2021 we've actually only released three new products which in the world of of beauty maximalism these days is is quite few.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what's really honestly led to I think it's 70% of our products are number one in their categories at Sephora.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: So it's led to really outsized performance by just being intentional and only launching products that are really excellent and and ready to hit the market frankly so we're gonna keep that same methodology.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: We'll have a few new launches next year ones that have been in the works for many years at this point and we'll continue to expand in both makeup and skincare.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: I love that I absolutely love that and I can't wait to see everything that you guys come up with in the future.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be extraordinary like everything else.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much, Ayla.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: This has been so lovely and for everyone listening you know I really hope you guys you know find options through these episodes that's always my goal is to you know have brands on that are just you know things we can actually use you know brands we can stand behind and I definitely think that merit is you know by merit it is one of those brands you know you can literally blindly pick up one of their products and I promise you it's gonna work for you in some way shape or form because it's it's made to you know it's made to work.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I really really love the brand I hope you guys check them out.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna tag everything in the concept art for this episode but Ayla thank you so much again and I'm I would love to have you back anytime your schedule allows of course thank you so much for having me this was amazing yes this was lovely and also a huge shout out to Catherine Powers by the way your co-genious thank you yes she's incredible absolutely thank you so much thank you hey guys so I hope you love that episode please make sure to hit subscribe if you're tuning in to us on any podcast platform we are available on so many different platforms so wherever it is that you're tuning in just go hit subscribe you'll be immediately notified when we publish new episodes this way you're able to tune in to amazing insights from experts brand founders industry leaders authors all the wonderful people that we host and that's very important for me because I love to hear from you guys and really understand what you love and what you want to hear more of.
• 39:00
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• 39:08
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• 39:14
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• 39:24
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• 39:30
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• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you