Latest / PNW Haunts & Homicides / The Tragic Murder of Ashley & Dennis Prince - Love Lust Fridays

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The Tragic Murder of Ashley & Dennis Prince - Love Lust Fridays · PNW Haunts & Homicides

0:00
Speaker 1: Hello, Sins and Survivors listeners. As you know, we normally
0:03
Speaker 1: focus on cases that deal with domestic violence and occasionally
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Speaker 1: missing persons and unsolved cases. I'm your host, Sean, and
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Speaker 1: with me, as always, is the one and only John.
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Speaker 2: I am the only John in the room.
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Speaker 1: Today, we have a very special episode for you. Jake
0:18
Speaker 1: and Michelle from Loveluss Fridays invited us on to talk
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Speaker 1: about the Ashley and Dennis Prince domestic violence murder case,
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Speaker 1: to dig deeper into the case and get some different
0:28
Speaker 1: expert perspectives.
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Speaker 2: Michelle is a former associate family court judge and current
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Speaker 2: family law attorney who has handled over five thousand domestic
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Speaker 2: violence cases. Jake is well known for his podcast Love Lust,
0:40
Speaker 2: Fear and of course Love Lust Fridays, and he's also
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Speaker 2: the co host of Strictly Stalking. So we're really leaning
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Speaker 2: into talking with some serious domain experts.
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Speaker 3: Here.
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Speaker 1: We'll link the original episode in the show notes. You
0:51
Speaker 1: can re listen to the episode on the Prince murders.
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Speaker 2: We had a really in depth conversation with Michelle and Jake,
0:57
Speaker 2: really digging into a lot of the aspects of this case,
1:00
Speaker 2: and it was fascinating to get the perspective of a
1:02
Speaker 2: former judge who has pretty much seen it all in
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Speaker 2: the family court system.
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Speaker 1: So, without further delay, here's Jake.
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Speaker 4: I'm Jake Debtulah and this is Loveless Fridays. Here we
1:13
Speaker 4: delve deeper into the topics, themes and stories featured on
1:16
Speaker 4: Loveless Fear. Today, I'm excited to welcome Sean and John,
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Speaker 4: the host of Sins and Survivors Las Vegas True Crime.
1:22
Speaker 4: Their podcast uncovers Las Vegas' most disturbing true crime cases
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Speaker 4: with a special emphasis on domestic violence. Sewn is an
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Speaker 4: advocate with over twenty five years of experience and dedicates
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Speaker 4: her efforts to supporting survivors and working with various nonprofits,
1:35
Speaker 4: while John has twenty five years in tech consulting with
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Speaker 4: a passion for true crime, focusing on digital privacy and safety. Together,
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Speaker 4: they reveal the hidden, darker aspects of Las Vegas. On
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Speaker 4: their show, they covered the tragic case of Dennis and
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Speaker 4: Ashley Prince. Ashley was involved in a custody case with
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Speaker 4: her ex husband Dylan Houston. Her new husband, Dennis Prince,
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Speaker 4: was her attorney in the custody case, while Dylan was
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Speaker 4: represented by his father and Ashley's ex father in law,
2:02
Speaker 4: Joe Houston. Just minutes into the deposition at Dennis's law offices,
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Speaker 4: Joe Houston pulls out a handgun and shoots both Ashley
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Speaker 4: and Dennis to death. He then turned the gun on himself.
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Speaker 4: Also joining us as Michelle Locke, a former associate family
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Speaker 4: court judge in current family law attorney with extensive experience
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Speaker 4: in handling over five thousand domestic violence cases. She's here
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Speaker 4: to offer her valuable perspectives and insights. Sean and John,
2:26
Speaker 4: thank you so much for joining. What was it about
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Speaker 4: this particular case that made you both want to cover
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Speaker 4: it and highlight some of the toxic and devastating issues
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Speaker 4: that this case amplifies.
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Speaker 2: So this case was really shocking, as you might imagine,
2:43
Speaker 2: but there were a couple of things about it. Many
2:46
Speaker 2: times there isn't very much coverage at all, so they'll
2:49
Speaker 2: be just like that brief coverage, but with the high
2:52
Speaker 2: profile nature of the people involved, there was some more
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Speaker 2: information out there. These people were all very success full,
3:01
Speaker 2: very successful lawyers, and when it happened, we remember very
3:05
Speaker 2: well the day it happened because it happened very close
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Speaker 2: to where I used to live up in Summerland, just
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Speaker 2: right across the street, and initially the reporting was that
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Speaker 2: perhaps there was a mass shooting in a law office
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Speaker 2: in downtown Summerland, which is like a kind of a swanky,
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Speaker 2: very swanky shopping area that has an office building in
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Speaker 2: the center where Dennis Prince had his offices, and there
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Speaker 2: was a lot of sort of panic in the area
3:30
Speaker 2: on that day. So we really wanted to dig into
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Speaker 2: that and find out what happened. And it also highlights
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Speaker 2: the fact that this happens at every socioeconomic level. We
3:39
Speaker 2: cover a lot of people that have low incomes, but
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Speaker 2: it happens, you know, we say in our every episode,
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Speaker 2: what happens here, happens everywhere, and it's also true that
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Speaker 2: what happens at one the socioeconomic level happens at all
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Speaker 2: socioeconomic levels.
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Speaker 1: For me, part of it was Ashley was trying to
3:58
Speaker 1: break away from the person who was abusive in her life.
4:02
Speaker 1: She was trying to do right by her family, and
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Speaker 1: it became this huge, toxic, awful mess for her, And
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Speaker 1: I think it just really highlights that a lot of
4:11
Speaker 1: times we as people, we like the simple solution. We
4:15
Speaker 1: want to say, just leave, just leave and move on
4:18
Speaker 1: and Ashley did. She divorced this man, but because of
4:21
Speaker 1: her children, she was always going to be connected to
4:24
Speaker 1: him in one way or the other. So even though
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Speaker 1: she tried to leave, it wasn't In some ways, it's
4:30
Speaker 1: not going to be enough without her going to the
4:32
Speaker 1: court and asking for more help and more support.
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Speaker 4: Michelle, you're no stranger to any of these issues when
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Speaker 4: it comes to domestic violence court, when it comes to
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Speaker 4: custody battles.
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Speaker 3: What would you like.
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Speaker 4: To share about this particular case and why it resonated
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Speaker 4: with you?
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Speaker 3: For me, the facts are horrendous for so many reasons,
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Speaker 3: and family law in itself is contentious when you get
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Speaker 3: to custody litigation, especially post divorce. If you are on
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Speaker 3: what we call in Texas a modification suit, which seeks
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Speaker 3: to modify parental rights post divorce or post the original proceeding,
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Speaker 3: you already have high conflict because if you're back in
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Speaker 3: court after you were already there before for your original case,
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Speaker 3: you don't get along. So that is makes you high
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Speaker 3: conflict to start with. But what was particular about this case,
5:23
Speaker 3: and if you know how litigation works and how depositions work,
5:28
Speaker 3: what struck me as interesting for many reasons. Is that
5:34
Speaker 3: at this deposition, it took place at the new husband's office.
5:39
Speaker 3: His wife was there, and she's a party. And typically
5:41
Speaker 3: when you have a deposition, parties are present, even if
5:44
Speaker 3: you're taking a third party witnesses deposition. And so Dad
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Speaker 3: was taking the deposition in theory of his own wife
5:53
Speaker 3: against the new husband and the ex wife, his son's
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Speaker 3: ex wife. The person that was missing that should have
6:01
Speaker 3: been there was the other party, Dad. Why wasn't Dad there?
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Speaker 3: And I know in the legal filings in court there
6:09
Speaker 3: were allegations immediately after the shooting of he must have known,
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Speaker 3: and then Dad denied that, and I understand those their
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Speaker 3: legal positions. I'm just gonna tell you there are certain
6:19
Speaker 3: smell tests we use in court, and that one smells funny.
6:26
Speaker 3: That is what I'm gonna say, because parties are almost
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Speaker 3: always present at depositions, even for third persons. In this
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Speaker 3: particular case, it was his mom being deposed. His ex
6:37
Speaker 3: wife was there, her new husband there, his dad was there,
6:40
Speaker 3: but he chose not to be there that day. Interesting, Yeah,
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Speaker 3: for sure.
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Speaker 1: That was one thing that we did talk about though
6:48
Speaker 1: during this school day before anything was confirmed in the press.
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Speaker 1: Who was a victim, whether or not Ashley had been shot,
6:56
Speaker 1: whether she was dead or alive, Dylan showed up and
7:00
Speaker 1: pulled his kids out of school in the middle of
7:01
Speaker 1: the day. Yeah, and John, and I want to say
7:04
Speaker 1: that the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department did clear Dylan.
7:09
Speaker 1: They did an investigation and they cleared him. So I
7:11
Speaker 1: just want to say that for the purposes of the podcast.
7:13
Speaker 1: But I agree with you with the smell test. He
7:17
Speaker 1: wasn't there, and then in the middle of the day
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Speaker 1: he went and took his kids out of school.
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Speaker 3: And I agree with you. He was cleared. Absolutely was cleared.
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Speaker 3: And I'm not suggesting anything other than he was cleared,
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Speaker 3: and that's what the facts are. I'm just gonna say.
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Speaker 3: He's an officer of the court. He knows how the
7:31
Speaker 3: system works, he knows how depositions work, he knew what
7:35
Speaker 3: was going on. I mean, he's a think a personal
7:37
Speaker 3: injury attorney, if I recall correctly from the information, and
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Speaker 3: so it is just odd that he would not be there.
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Speaker 3: I'm not saying it means anything. Is just odd, really odd.
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Speaker 4: It seems like Joe Houston was triggered once Dennis started
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Speaker 4: questioning his wife. I would like to know the mindset
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Speaker 4: where Joe Houston was. And I know this is completely
8:00
Speaker 4: least speculation at this point, but would love to know
8:02
Speaker 4: your opinion on this.
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Speaker 2: Yes, definitely speculation for sure. And it did seem like
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Speaker 2: it was extremely contentious right from the beginning. So Joe said,
8:12
Speaker 2: is there any way we can resolve this for the
8:13
Speaker 2: sake of the kids? He did not receive an answer,
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Speaker 2: and then he went in and started directly questioning his wife,
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Speaker 2: which of course can be stressful, but it's a deposition.
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Speaker 2: One of the things that we did not share in
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Speaker 2: the podcast is that Joe Houston was apparently sick, so
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Speaker 2: he had learned that he had prostate cancer that had
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Speaker 2: spread to his bones that had returned just days before
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Speaker 2: the incident occurred. So when trying to wrap my brain
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Speaker 2: around what is the motivation for someone in that sort
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Speaker 2: of situation, I absolutely can't imagine. I can speculate, we
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Speaker 2: try not to speculate, but it does seem that was
8:52
Speaker 2: probably on his mind.
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Speaker 3: I'm sure it was, But why are you going to
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Speaker 3: a deposition locked and loaded? It's not.
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Speaker 1: And Joe Houston and Dennis Prince were arguing via email
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Speaker 1: over the what was going to happen. At this deposition,
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Speaker 1: Joe asked that Ashley not be there, and Dennis was like,
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Speaker 1: you can forget it, Ashley's going to be there. But
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Speaker 1: he did send him an email in all caps that
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Speaker 1: was like, I demand Ashley not be there, which I
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Speaker 1: think Dennis just basically laughed at what is this? What
9:20
Speaker 1: kind of demand is that to make? But it just
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Speaker 1: I just think it's just one more piece of evidence, Michelle,
9:26
Speaker 1: that this had gotten way out of control.
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Speaker 3: And that's the other part for me, speaking as a lawyer,
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Speaker 3: one of the reasons you have independent counsel is to
9:36
Speaker 3: remove that venom, the emotional entrenchment that occurs if you're
9:44
Speaker 3: involved in your own case. I don't know why, because
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Speaker 3: in this particular case, there were three attorneys, right there
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Speaker 3: was the new husband, there was the father in law,
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Speaker 3: and there was the son you're telling me. Between those
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Speaker 3: three attorneys, not one of them sat back and said, yeah,
10:02
Speaker 3: this is a bad idea, like because most of them
10:05
Speaker 3: were probably a fact witnesses to begin with. And so
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Speaker 3: for me, I'm just like, at what point did someone
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Speaker 3: go Someone should have said this is a bad, bad,
10:14
Speaker 3: bad idea.
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Speaker 1: And you know what, Michelle, Joe Houston's wife, Dylan's mom
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Speaker 1: had her own attorney, you know what I mean. Even
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Speaker 1: this other, let's say sort of on the outside looking in,
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Speaker 1: non family attorney person was even somewhat connected to this case.
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Speaker 1: I don't know how it got as far as it got.
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Speaker 3: Shocking to me, it was designed to explode. You've got
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Speaker 3: that much animosity and then quite frankly, that much brain power. Like, no,
10:43
Speaker 3: no offensive attorneys, but I am one. When we're in
10:45
Speaker 3: depositions and we're good attorneys, we can ask questions in
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Speaker 3: a deposition that will make someone extremely angry. And so
10:53
Speaker 3: if he's just been told his cancer is back, it's metastatics,
10:57
Speaker 3: so it's spread to his bones, and his wife is
10:59
Speaker 3: getting ask questions that he doesn't like, Well, that's design
11:03
Speaker 3: for a problem. I mean to me, why didn't he
11:06
Speaker 3: step aside and have the Yeah, I need to step
11:10
Speaker 3: back from this. I mean that part of your job
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Speaker 3: as an attorney, so no, when you can't do it anymore.
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Speaker 1: And originally when John and I covered the case, Metro
11:18
Speaker 1: was still doing their investigation. But just recently in the
11:20
Speaker 1: last and I want to say it, towards the end
11:22
Speaker 1: of the summer, they released their report their findings and Joe,
11:27
Speaker 1: Joe fired that gun twelve times. So it wasn't like
11:30
Speaker 1: a one, two three. I don't want to get too graphic,
11:32
Speaker 1: but I mean, it wasn't like that. He got Dennis
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Speaker 1: seven times, seven times, three in the back and Ashley
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Speaker 1: one in the front, three in the back, and the
11:40
Speaker 1: twelfth bullet was for him in his own head. I
11:43
Speaker 1: believe there was a staff person from Dennis's office was
11:46
Speaker 1: in the in the room. She was pregnant. It must
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Speaker 1: have just the horror of that is the order there.
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Speaker 2: Yep, court reporter was there, lawyer was there, Catherine was there,
11:55
Speaker 2: and initially Ashley wanted to hire private security for the deposition.
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Speaker 2: Speaking of presence of mind, right, So she's the one
12:05
Speaker 2: who's not a lawyer, not an officer of the court,
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Speaker 2: and she has the presence of mind to say maybe
12:09
Speaker 2: we should bring private security into this. But they canceled
12:12
Speaker 2: the private security once they found out that Dylan wasn't
12:16
Speaker 2: going to be at the deposition, because everyone expected that
12:20
Speaker 2: the violence would come from Dylan, not from Joe.
12:24
Speaker 3: All I can say is these poor children, yeah, because
12:28
Speaker 3: this is the legacy they're left with because adults couldn't
12:32
Speaker 3: be adults. It's horrific.
12:38
Speaker 4: Ashley had the foresight to understand that Dylan was a
12:42
Speaker 4: threat emotionally, mentally, physically, and otherwise. Can you speak to
12:47
Speaker 4: some of the conditions that Ashley faced during her marriage
12:52
Speaker 4: to Dylan.
12:53
Speaker 2: So there was an incident when they were married and
12:56
Speaker 2: they were only married for four years, I think, yeah,
12:58
Speaker 2: so at one point he used a baseball bat to
13:02
Speaker 2: smash there and like smash up their home. She left
13:07
Speaker 2: shortly after that. But what we said in our intro
13:11
Speaker 2: was that she put up with years of unrelenting emotional
13:14
Speaker 2: abuse and threats. Right so, he would text her up
13:18
Speaker 2: to seventy times a day, just blowing up her phone.
13:21
Speaker 2: And Ashley's family shared some of the text messages during
13:24
Speaker 2: the trial, and they said things like prepare for a
13:27
Speaker 2: future on your knees, And there was one that said,
13:30
Speaker 2: I don't want to see you unless you're in a casket.
13:33
Speaker 2: And there was another one that we didn't quote here
13:36
Speaker 2: that said something like, and I'll have to paraphrase it,
13:39
Speaker 2: the children would be better off without you. Very direct
13:42
Speaker 2: threats upon her life.
13:44
Speaker 3: And that was from her ex husband.
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Speaker 2: Right, yeah, long before the deposition.
13:49
Speaker 3: When we talk about red flags, and jac you and
13:51
Speaker 3: I have talked about red flags before, and someone that
13:55
Speaker 3: puts that into writing is a danger. That mean, generally speaking,
14:02
Speaker 3: there's always exceptions. But he's a lawyer, his dad's a lawyer,
14:05
Speaker 3: the new husband's a lawyer, and he's putting that into writing.
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Speaker 2: And he hadn't been sanctioned in any way by.
14:14
Speaker 1: The court or the court told him to stop.
14:17
Speaker 3: But oh, he don't stopp Okay, but he didn't stop.
14:20
Speaker 1: But there was no consequences to not stopping.
14:22
Speaker 3: Well, And then what happened was, at least from what
14:24
Speaker 3: I have gathered, is that the case was transferred from
14:27
Speaker 3: Judge Henderson to the new judge, because I think Judge
14:30
Speaker 3: Henderson handled it for like two years total, but then
14:33
Speaker 3: it was transferred to a different judge and I heard
14:35
Speaker 3: her talking about it, and I remember her criticizing him
14:39
Speaker 3: about his communications, like knowing who he is, knowing it's
14:42
Speaker 3: under the watch flaw of the court, still sending these communications.
14:46
Speaker 3: And I have a case now that the communications are
14:49
Speaker 3: somewhart of this, and it's just but how do you
14:53
Speaker 3: stop someone's First Amendment?
14:54
Speaker 2: Right?
14:55
Speaker 3: You can't stop someone from being an a hole who
14:57
Speaker 3: wants to be an a hole. But holy cow, talk
15:00
Speaker 3: about red flags of I mean, someone puts that in writing.
15:05
Speaker 3: Start watching your back and have your nest cameras on
15:07
Speaker 3: at all times and pay for the subscription because y'all
15:10
Speaker 3: it's worth it.
15:12
Speaker 1: And Michelle, you you're a parent, how do you how
15:14
Speaker 1: do you even begin to try and parent a child
15:17
Speaker 1: with someone who behaves this way?
15:19
Speaker 3: I dealt with it. I want. One of my children,
15:21
Speaker 3: who's now an adult, had a particular issue with a
15:24
Speaker 3: younger girl when he was younger. And I have three boys,
15:27
Speaker 3: and it is different raising boys in today's world than
15:31
Speaker 3: it was when my parents raise my brothers and I
15:35
Speaker 3: and I am very, very very frank with them, and
15:40
Speaker 3: I mean probably more so than most parents, because I've
15:44
Speaker 3: seen the stuff that I wish I couldn't see, stuff
15:48
Speaker 3: that I don't want my kids to see. But let
15:50
Speaker 3: me tell you what. I'm very blunt with them about
15:53
Speaker 3: the risk, the dangers, et cetera. And I was the parent.
15:57
Speaker 3: They're under eighteen. I'm paying for their cell phone. Sorry, guys,
15:59
Speaker 3: I'm going through through it because no offense. Your prefrontal
16:02
Speaker 3: cortex is not fully developed. You don't make the right
16:05
Speaker 3: decisions yet because you're thinking with hormones and you're thinking
16:08
Speaker 3: with your physical responses, not with your executive functioning, and
16:11
Speaker 3: so it is my job to be on your tail
16:14
Speaker 3: every single day making sure you make the right decisions.
16:18
Speaker 3: The problem is when th't eighteen, they think you're still
16:20
Speaker 3: stupid and they ignore you for about four more years
16:22
Speaker 3: they figure out mom actually knew what she was talking about.
16:25
Speaker 3: But I'm very blunt, and I raised my ex husband's
16:29
Speaker 3: two girls. I was very blunt with them. I told
16:32
Speaker 3: them the risks of dating. I told them stories from
16:35
Speaker 3: the courtroom because I think it's important for them to
16:38
Speaker 3: know that it's not My kids have lived a very
16:40
Speaker 3: good life. They may tell you differently, but they have
16:43
Speaker 3: lived a very good life. That being said, because of that,
16:46
Speaker 3: they've been in protective bubble for the most part, because
16:49
Speaker 3: that's how they've grown up, and they don't understand the
16:52
Speaker 3: realities of what can go really wrong. And to some
16:57
Speaker 3: extent they listen, but it takes them a little while
17:00
Speaker 3: yet there.
17:00
Speaker 4: I'll be real honest, Michelle, you're someone who's been in
17:03
Speaker 4: the trenches of domestic violence and seen the worst. Do
17:07
Speaker 4: your kids understand that at this point when you speak,
17:11
Speaker 4: they really need to listen because you've seen it all.
17:15
Speaker 3: So it actually has a double whammy. My ex husband,
17:18
Speaker 3: who I was married to for twenty two years, as
17:20
Speaker 3: a prosecutor and has been a prosecutor for thirty years
17:23
Speaker 3: and tried I mean, I think he had seven or
17:26
Speaker 3: eight on death row. I mean tried all the big
17:29
Speaker 3: ugly cases. And so between the two of us, they
17:33
Speaker 3: had more access to information than most youth get. Whether
17:37
Speaker 3: they listen to it or on, I don't know, but
17:39
Speaker 3: I can tell you my old er two, for the
17:41
Speaker 3: most part, don't drink, they don't do drugs. They're not partiers.
17:46
Speaker 3: They're relatively good kids. I've got my issues with them,
17:48
Speaker 3: but they're they're good, caring kids. But they've heard the
17:51
Speaker 3: horror stories. We have not sheltered them from the realities
17:55
Speaker 3: that there is a dark side, and you have to
17:58
Speaker 3: pay attention to those warnings to know that if it
18:02
Speaker 3: doesn't pass the smell test or the other side I
18:05
Speaker 3: tell them is if it walks like a duck, talks
18:07
Speaker 3: like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck.
18:08
Speaker 3: I don't care what you call it.
18:09
Speaker 1: It's very true.
18:11
Speaker 4: Sean and John, what are some of the takeaways that
18:15
Speaker 4: you can reveal from some of the cases that you've
18:17
Speaker 4: seen in some of the trends of steps that happened
18:20
Speaker 4: right before a tragedy like this unfolded.
18:23
Speaker 2: I think you hit on it earlier. It's really about
18:26
Speaker 2: looking for the red flags. And the thing that kills
18:30
Speaker 2: us about this one is that Ashley saw the red flag.
18:34
Speaker 2: She lived through years long red flag warning with him,
18:40
Speaker 2: and the fact that she was going to hire security.
18:43
Speaker 2: I think you need to trust your gut. And if
18:46
Speaker 2: you see red flags and you think something's wrong here,
18:50
Speaker 2: you need to trust your gut. Don't let someone talk
18:52
Speaker 2: you out of it and say, ah, I think it's fine.
18:55
Speaker 1: John and I are also always cautious when we say
18:57
Speaker 1: this because we do not victim. So I'm going to
19:01
Speaker 1: say this and I want the people to hear it
19:03
Speaker 1: and understand that this is not a personal criticism on
19:06
Speaker 1: anything anyone did or didn't do. But in a lot
19:09
Speaker 1: of the times these situations, we have heard or seen moms, sisters,
19:14
Speaker 1: fathers say I knew something was wrong, but I didn't
19:17
Speaker 1: know what to do. I didn't know if it was
19:19
Speaker 1: a big enough deal. And to John and I, that's
19:22
Speaker 1: like heartbreaking, and what John usually says is in situations
19:26
Speaker 1: where you think someone is at risk of being murdered
19:28
Speaker 1: by their partner, you cannot overreact. You can only underreact.
19:33
Speaker 1: And we want people to feel comfortable figuring out ways
19:36
Speaker 1: to talk to their loved ones about what they think
19:38
Speaker 1: they see is going on. I think that's the takeaway
19:42
Speaker 1: that we have in a lot of these cases, is
19:43
Speaker 1: that after it's over, the press does the interview with
19:47
Speaker 1: the mom or the sister or the dad, and they
19:49
Speaker 1: are saying things like I knew something was wrong. He
19:52
Speaker 1: always treated her badly. She she didn't want to listen
19:55
Speaker 1: to me. So it's kind of like, how do we
19:59
Speaker 1: look out for each other better when we see the
20:01
Speaker 1: red flights? Because sometimes if you're in it, you don't
20:03
Speaker 1: see it, or you don't want it. You balance it
20:05
Speaker 1: out with the other good stuff that's happening, so you
20:07
Speaker 1: don't accept it. And it's like, how do we have
20:09
Speaker 1: those conversations with each other in a productive, safe, and
20:13
Speaker 1: caring way.
20:14
Speaker 3: So I have two takeaways. It's amazing how smart my
20:18
Speaker 3: gut has gotten as I've gotten older, And it's not
20:21
Speaker 3: because it actually got smarter, it's because I started listening
20:24
Speaker 3: to it. That is absolutely number one. The number two
20:29
Speaker 3: takeaway that I wish I'd known younger, and this is
20:33
Speaker 3: the big mistake that I think youth makes in particular,
20:36
Speaker 3: because truly wisdom comes with age. Is when everyone around
20:41
Speaker 3: you dislikes the person, there's a reason for it. It's
20:45
Speaker 3: not because they don't understand him or her, right, Oh well,
20:51
Speaker 3: they just want him, or they don't understand him like
20:54
Speaker 3: I do. No, they get him, they get her. They
20:59
Speaker 3: don't have have the rose colored glasses on. And instead
21:03
Speaker 3: of fighting the people, because those people love you and
21:06
Speaker 3: they want what's best for you, and they're trying to
21:09
Speaker 3: help young ladies. It's not jealousy. It's just not listen
21:14
Speaker 3: to your friends. When the ex wife says he's a
21:18
Speaker 3: terrible SOB, she's speaking from experience, y'all. It's not that
21:23
Speaker 3: she just all of a sudden became hateful. She knew.
21:28
Speaker 1: Listen to them they know, or my favorite that you know,
21:32
Speaker 1: he says all his exes are crazy.
21:33
Speaker 3: Right, Oh, listen, if they say all their ex'es are crazy,
21:36
Speaker 3: I would say that's red flag number one. But that's
21:38
Speaker 3: like red flag number ninety nine by the time you
21:40
Speaker 3: get there. Oh no, she was crazy. She was or conversely,
21:43
Speaker 3: he was crazy. He was crazy, he was crazy, he
21:46
Speaker 3: was crazy. No, the common denominator is not them.
21:51
Speaker 2: You know.
21:51
Speaker 4: One of the things that all of you mentioned you
21:53
Speaker 4: have to have uncomfortable conversations to come up with healthy solutions.
21:58
Speaker 4: There's no way around this same thing. You witness a crime.
22:01
Speaker 4: I don't want to be involved, don't want to rock
22:03
Speaker 4: the boat. I don't want this drama in my life.
22:05
Speaker 4: And you see these moments when you said this earlier, Sean,
22:08
Speaker 4: I wish I would have said something. You don't want
22:10
Speaker 4: to be in that position, you don't want to be.
22:12
Speaker 4: Would a could have, should have, especially if there's a
22:15
Speaker 4: tragedy like this. It's not victim blaming, but I think
22:18
Speaker 4: we have to help people feel more comfortable with coming forward.
22:21
Speaker 4: And even if you may lose a friend in the process, you.
22:25
Speaker 3: May lose friends. You will lose friends. But and quite frankly,
22:31
Speaker 3: the last thing you want to do is not have
22:33
Speaker 3: said something, and then you see you get the phone
22:35
Speaker 3: call a month later at six am because that person's
22:39
Speaker 3: body's been found. I've had a conversation with someone before
22:42
Speaker 3: where this was a particular issue was like, he's threatening suicide.
22:46
Speaker 3: Do I call his fan. Do I call? I said, yes,
22:49
Speaker 3: you call, because if you don't call, what are you
22:51
Speaker 3: going to do? The next day? Something happens? And if
22:53
Speaker 3: you get it wrong, oh well. But everyone is so
22:56
Speaker 3: afraid to have uncomfortable conversations these days because it's everyone
23:01
Speaker 3: wants to be politically correct. No one wants to talk
23:04
Speaker 3: bluntly about the realities of life, the realities of relationships.
23:08
Speaker 3: Quite frankly, knock it off. Let's talk bluntly because more
23:13
Speaker 3: lives could be saved if we did so.
23:23
Speaker 4: Sean and John, we all collectively cover and have either
23:27
Speaker 4: faced or report on such tragic and horrific cases. Okay,
23:33
Speaker 4: sometimes they have a ending or something that actually gives
23:36
Speaker 4: survivors hope to move on with their lives.
23:39
Speaker 3: But you know what kind of toll.
23:40
Speaker 4: Does this take on you, consistently dealing with the endgame
23:45
Speaker 4: of tragedy when it comes to so many of the cases.
23:48
Speaker 3: That you cover.
23:49
Speaker 1: I think for me it helps a lot that you know,
23:52
Speaker 1: I'll get a little sappy that you know, my best
23:54
Speaker 1: friend is my partner in this. So it's good to
23:57
Speaker 1: have someone that's close to you, that is available at
23:59
Speaker 1: any time that you can just be like, let me
24:03
Speaker 1: just tell you this fucked up thing, or let me
24:04
Speaker 1: just share this with you, or let me tell you
24:06
Speaker 1: what I'm going through. And like we will raise our
24:09
Speaker 1: voices or express our frustration not with each other but
24:13
Speaker 1: to each other about the things we read. And I
24:15
Speaker 1: think that's always helped me. I'm much I'm very much
24:17
Speaker 1: a venor that I will, you know, say everything that
24:21
Speaker 1: I'm thinking and be very angry about it, and then
24:23
Speaker 1: somehow I just kind of move on. But John definitely
24:27
Speaker 1: always keeps me laughing. He's got a lot of he's
24:30
Speaker 1: got a great sense of humor. He's always finding, you know,
24:33
Speaker 1: a way to make me laugh, and that that's just
24:36
Speaker 1: exactly what I need.
24:37
Speaker 2: So oh, that is true. I mean, especially the stuff
24:40
Speaker 2: about me just kidding. But for me, I think to
24:45
Speaker 2: kind of get through some of these I like to
24:48
Speaker 2: think about and we often talk about the fact that
24:51
Speaker 2: by highlighting these cases, there's a chance that we can
24:56
Speaker 2: potentially prevent them from happening again by educating people, by
25:00
Speaker 2: telling you know, there are people I don't know how,
25:03
Speaker 2: but there are people that don't understand what red flags
25:06
Speaker 2: are and what are red flags. So the more you
25:10
Speaker 2: know what to look for in your relationships, just the
25:14
Speaker 2: same kind of things that you talk about. I like
25:16
Speaker 2: to think that I am helping people.
25:18
Speaker 1: Not ignore things and be ready to address them and
25:22
Speaker 1: understand where to go and that help is available, all
25:25
Speaker 1: of that stuff.
25:25
Speaker 3: I mean.
25:26
Speaker 1: The weird thing about working in prevention kind of like
25:30
Speaker 1: I do, is that there's it's almost impossible to measure
25:33
Speaker 1: things that did not happen. We don't know, We don't
25:37
Speaker 1: really know, but yeah, that's definitely one thing that keeps
25:40
Speaker 1: us motivated. We want to educate our community and we
25:44
Speaker 1: want to try to help people.
25:45
Speaker 3: I left the bench, y'all because all I saw was ugly.
25:50
Speaker 3: It wasn't And I left the full time bench because
25:53
Speaker 3: all I saw was ugly. All I saw were women,
25:57
Speaker 3: men getting victimized and them not understanding women with a
26:03
Speaker 3: crowbar to a chest. I saw that what we call
26:05
Speaker 3: baby in a microwave. The stuff I saw I can't unsee.
26:10
Speaker 3: And if anything we do and just this arena save
26:14
Speaker 3: someone from being killed, then everything I did is worth it.
26:20
Speaker 3: People are gonna love me or hate me, and it
26:21
Speaker 3: doesn't really matter to me because they're not paying my bills.
26:24
Speaker 3: But if I can get someone to listen to this
26:28
Speaker 3: this conversation and be the friend that goes and tells
26:31
Speaker 3: their buddy, I don't like them, and here's why I
26:34
Speaker 3: don't like her. Here's why you're gonna lose friends. And that,
26:39
Speaker 3: guess what is okay because at the end of the day,
26:41
Speaker 3: you did the right thing. Your conscience is clear, and
26:44
Speaker 3: that is what we're supposed to do as human beings
26:46
Speaker 3: is try to help others. And you can't only lead
26:49
Speaker 3: a horse to water, you can't make them drink, but
26:51
Speaker 3: at least you do your duty and you do what
26:53
Speaker 3: you should do as a friend is tell them, hey,
26:55
Speaker 3: here are my concerns. I love you, I want the
26:58
Speaker 3: best for you. Here's what I'm seeing. And the people
27:03
Speaker 3: receiving that message need to listen to these types of
27:06
Speaker 3: podcasts and think they're not jealous. They're not trying to
27:10
Speaker 3: hurt me. They are trying to educate and make me
27:14
Speaker 3: take those rose colored glasses off.
27:16
Speaker 4: Sorry for my soapbox, No, that's amazing. I have a
27:20
Speaker 4: question for Sean and John what inspired you both to
27:23
Speaker 4: get into crime podcasting.
27:25
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty two, Crime con came to Vegas, and
27:29
Speaker 1: that was the year that Gabby Patito was murdered by
27:33
Speaker 1: her boyfriend, and I reached out to the people in
27:36
Speaker 1: charge of crime Con and I said, Hey, like, you're
27:39
Speaker 1: coming to my city, you're going to talk about domestic violence,
27:42
Speaker 1: Please have resources available for people, because this is going
27:45
Speaker 1: to bring up some stuff for people and they're not
27:47
Speaker 1: going to know where to put it. People are going
27:49
Speaker 1: to want to know the hotline, They're going to want
27:51
Speaker 1: to know where to go for help. But crime Con
27:53
Speaker 1: never got back to me, so I ended up attending
27:56
Speaker 1: myself and trying to hear what they all had to
27:59
Speaker 1: say about Gabby Patito and I just started researching more
28:03
Speaker 1: about how true crime can help people and be more ethical,
28:07
Speaker 1: and that's how I kind of learned more about the
28:10
Speaker 1: podcasters that are out there doing the work to raise awareness,
28:13
Speaker 1: to help families, to advocate for justice. And John and
28:18
Speaker 1: I went to a different conference, the True Crime Podcast Festival,
28:22
Speaker 1: just to kind of listen and hear and see what
28:24
Speaker 1: was going on. And during one of the sessions, John
28:27
Speaker 1: just kind of poked me and he was like, are
28:29
Speaker 1: you hearing what I'm hearing? We're hearing these stories of murder,
28:32
Speaker 1: We're hearing these family tragedies, and do you see that
28:36
Speaker 1: domestic violence is an undercurrent in all of these cases,
28:39
Speaker 1: and he's like, we could do this. We could make
28:42
Speaker 1: a show that where we really spotlight that, we really
28:45
Speaker 1: go into that, we talk about the facts and figures
28:49
Speaker 1: in reality, and we make it more than just a tagline.
28:52
Speaker 3: You know.
28:52
Speaker 1: Oh, you see those shirts. I'm sure you've seen them before, Jake, Michelle,
28:55
Speaker 1: you may have seen them too. People wear the shirts
28:57
Speaker 1: that say the husband did it, and it's like, yes,
29:01
Speaker 1: the husband did it. Let's talk about the issue. Let's
29:03
Speaker 1: not make light of it. It's so serious and it's
29:06
Speaker 1: something that really affects the Las Vegas and community where
29:10
Speaker 1: we live. Nevada for twenty three out of last twenty
29:12
Speaker 1: five years has been in the top ten for women
29:15
Speaker 1: being murdered by men per capita. So we just kind
29:18
Speaker 1: of wanted to tell our local stories, help our local families,
29:22
Speaker 1: and just raise awareness about the issue.
29:24
Speaker 4: Well, you're both making a huge impact, especially to take
29:27
Speaker 4: these stories and highlight the cases, the victims, the survivors
29:33
Speaker 4: in your own community. And I see a lot of
29:35
Speaker 4: these podcasts they cover sort of a global level, but
29:39
Speaker 4: the fact that you're basically making this a homegrown effort
29:42
Speaker 4: and sort of a mandate to advocate for people that
29:46
Speaker 4: you're surrounded by. Generally, when people think Las Vegas, they
29:50
Speaker 4: think sensationalization. Right, there's a way that you could really
29:54
Speaker 4: push the boundaries of tongue in cheek, and you really don't.
29:57
Speaker 4: You go at Las Vegas like it's boise ido in
30:01
Speaker 4: a way, just a small town just trying to get by,
30:03
Speaker 4: and these are the crimes that happen. So I really
30:06
Speaker 4: admire that.
30:07
Speaker 1: What I say about Vegas a lot of times is
30:10
Speaker 1: the part that most people experience is the show that
30:14
Speaker 1: we put on for all of you. So we are
30:17
Speaker 1: your stage crew, We are your PA's, like, we put
30:20
Speaker 1: this show together for you. So you come and you
30:23
Speaker 1: see the performances, you see the bright lights, you eat,
30:26
Speaker 1: the delicious food, you enjoy, the sporting events, you do
30:29
Speaker 1: all of that. But behind that backstage are the firefighters
30:33
Speaker 1: and the cops, and the teachers and the acrobats in
30:37
Speaker 1: circ like we are all regular people just living our
30:40
Speaker 1: lives here. So I think from us, from our point
30:42
Speaker 1: of view in the suburbs, it probably doesn't feel very
30:45
Speaker 1: different from anyone else's life in the suburbs, you know,
30:49
Speaker 1: But there is that part that people see and then
30:52
Speaker 1: there's the part that people don't see.
30:54
Speaker 4: What do you want the future to look like for
30:56
Speaker 4: your series, the impact it makes, and how you're going
30:59
Speaker 4: to grow and expand what you're doing.
31:00
Speaker 3: And how can we help.
31:03
Speaker 1: Yes, I think that there's some good stuff happening in
31:06
Speaker 1: Vegas that probably doesn't get enough attention, Like we do
31:09
Speaker 1: have the Vegas Justice League where Justin Wu and company,
31:12
Speaker 1: they are trying to raise money every day to really
31:16
Speaker 1: get into the cold case backlog. I think the tech
31:19
Speaker 1: that we've seen improve around DNA testing could really mean
31:23
Speaker 1: some breakthroughs. And we've had some amazing solves and identifications
31:28
Speaker 1: recently that John and I covered some of them on
31:30
Speaker 1: the podcast. It's a little out of our scope, but
31:32
Speaker 1: we like are We just get such a like a
31:35
Speaker 1: hopeful feeling from it. We want to cover those cold cases,
31:38
Speaker 1: especially when they're solves that like energizes me. I really
31:43
Speaker 1: try and embrace that. I would love to see people
31:47
Speaker 1: in our community become more familiar with the work we
31:50
Speaker 1: do and come to us to say, I have a
31:53
Speaker 1: cold case. I want people to talk about this. I
31:56
Speaker 1: want to do more of that.
31:57
Speaker 4: Thank you for joining Sean, John, Michelle and I on
32:00
Speaker 4: loveless Fridays. If you have dating a relationship story to
32:02
Speaker 4: share or want to participate in a discussion here on
32:04
Speaker 4: loveless Fridays, dm me on Instagram at lovelss fear pod
32:08
Speaker 4: or email me at Lovelessfearpod at gmail dot com. Thanks
32:11
Speaker 4: for listening, sharing and supporting. Links against social media and
32:14
Speaker 4: some content mentioned are in our show notes. If you
32:16
Speaker 4: know someone who's being abused by a partner, there is
32:18
Speaker 4: help available twenty four hours a day, seven days a week,
32:21
Speaker 4: three hundred and sixty five days a year. The National
32:23
Speaker 4: Domestic Violence Hotline provides essential tools and support to help
32:27
Speaker 4: survivors of domestic violence so they can live their lives
32:30
Speaker 4: free of abuse. Call one eight hundred seventy nine nine
32:33
Speaker 4: safe that's one eight hundred and seventy nine nine seven
32:36
Speaker 4: two three three, or text start to eight eight seven
32:40
Speaker 4: eight eight