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Margaret Mary O'Connor | The Christian Reeve Podcast | #94 | · The Christian Reeve Podcast

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It's another episode of the Christian wife podcast, but are
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you subscribed? If not make sure to like, share
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and subscribe, spread the word about the Christian Reef podcast
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and enjoy this episode. Hello and welcome to another
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episode of the Christian Reef podcast.
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Today's guest is an author all the way from New York City.
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She's the author of Scandal in the shadows.
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Her name is Margaret Mary O'Connor?
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Welcome to the Show. Margaret, how you doing?
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Oh, real good. Thank you for stand for having
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me on. It's a pleasure.
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Especially I just want to say, first of all, I love the room,
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you're in this, I love this, this deck or and stuff.
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Oh, thank you. This is my kitchen.
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I caught I've been Irish, I caught my Irish kitchen.
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It's gorgeous. This Gorge is that with the, the
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woods and everything is that like handmade and stuff or it
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soak, you know, that was something that was biting, but I
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do love World, whether it's all Kur, while not on the same.
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I don't know what it is. II got two sets of tables the
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other day because I do volunteering here in Manchester
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every Monday and every once in a while.
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While our spot something that catches my eye like oh, that'd
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be nice. I'd like that.
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And for a while, I've been searching for a coffee table and
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I was very lucky. You can see just in the
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background here, there's one of the tables.
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Yeah, so that's one of the slightly larger one and then the
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one there's like another underneath table, it's a little
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bit smaller, but the thing that I that really excited, me was
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just the wood finish. It's just like a really kind of
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nice word. It's got a bit of weight to it.
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I don't know. I just, I love that.
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Yeah, if it has its shine on it. Yeah, it's just it just feels a
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bit real real. Like I know maybe some people
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listening might not know what the hell I'm going on about, but
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basically what I mean by that is, you know, when you look at
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like how most people get their Furniture, if these days from
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places like Ikea and stuff and it's like, okay, fine.
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I got some stuff in my house, fine.
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But there's like no character to it.
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Is that? Yeah, it's blah.
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Just doesn't know you cut Yukon. I don't think you can simulate
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character. Generally mean, it's like, you
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gotta a lot of the time things are collected over time and
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stuff. And I could tell, like, in the
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back of your kitchen, there is that little odds and ends and
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trinkets and stuff, that's like it adds character adds
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something. But anyway, we much, let's get
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you a book. So I did a little bit of
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research into, I've got like a vague idea, but I kind of wanted
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to let you kind of say it in your own words.
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Word. So what exactly is your book
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about and what is the overall goal with the book?
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Yes, I'm just a regular everyday camp.
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Like we're called the laity and I wanted to present to my
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fellow, Catholics the truth, a hidden history of the Catholic
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Church which involves any woman. And what I'm talking about is
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there was a centuries-old scandal of Lies cover-up and
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Deceit by the church hierarchy and Has been covered.
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There's some very interesting skeletons there, but I want to
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talk to any woman that you have been lied to, by your church.
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There's a betrayal of your own trust and once you realize that,
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that isn't something that's really easy to swallow, let
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alone Digest You know, how to get a handle on that.
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And when I first found, this fact, the factual evidence
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biblical evidence of the truth of early woman priest in our
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Catholic church history. I really went through a my rid
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of emotions and I had to decide. Am I going to stay in this awful
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state or is there something I can do after learning this awful
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evidence and really my conscience led me to write a
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book to get this factual truth out there.
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Which unfortunately, I mean, it's very sad, you belong to a
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church. And not that we're biblical
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Scholars. But I mean your everyday
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Catholic we pretty much know, I mean, the major parts of our
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faith life and then, wow. All of a sudden But a net other
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side, it's so exciting. Because now, you're seeing a
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whole new other side of your church history that you never
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knew existed. Now, that has cons and Pros
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because unfortunately, there are a lot of Catholics that
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basically want to stay in that. Let's say status quo, they're
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very comfortable with it. They don't want something that's
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perhaps rocking the boat as this new information would be.
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And then there's even woman in the church that for some reason,
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the Lot of having woman priest to them just doesn't set well
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and when I'm out, picketing for women priests, how do I put this
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politely? I hear many disparaging words,
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but there's such a variance of their emotions.
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Hmm. Some will like screaming at you.
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Go home. You hear it tick?
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Shut your mouth don't act anymore, stupid thing you are.
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I'm intrigued of the abuse that you sometimes receive is there
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ever any other women saying those things?
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Or is it just men? the men will basically say you
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belong in the kitchen and the first time that I heard that,
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and I grew up back in the 1950s. I was a little girl, then, and
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when you think of now today in 2021, and when I heard that the
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first time, it was like, oh my God.
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I'm like in the Twilight Zone, this different dimension of
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time. Yeah.
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And then they just are the walk by you and they put their eyes
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down and they just shake their heads.
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This is what you mean. Now that's kind of the attitudes
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of PS. Okay, okay.
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And I, it really, it took me back because I thought I'm, we
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finally through with that that woman belong in the kitchen.
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No, it's still alive. Unfortunately, very much so it's
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interesting for me because obviously come from a different
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generation to yourself. And for me growing up, I mean, I
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definitely saw sexism, you know, in many different places but I
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would describe it more as, like institutional sexism meaning,
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you know, like discrimination in the workplace or, or even when I
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was at school. I remember there were certain
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things that, you know, there would be, like, subtle thing.
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It would never be like, come out and be obvious.
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It be like, Underlying if you start digging at it and
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scratching it some, then it gets exposed by feel like over the
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past. Let's say the last 10 years,
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there's been a lot of change progressively as far as exposing
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these things and pushing it out then and kind of challenging as
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you said the state as quotes kind of attitude that a lot of
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people tend to have. And I think that I think for the
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In fairness, most people don't have that attitude.
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I think most people just normal everyday people that are not
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sexist that are not for instance races.
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You know, they just want to live their life, be happy.
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And because at the end of the day, A lot of time it will bring
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it back to the church for a second.
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I would wager that that kind of attitude that those men tend to
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have is just as much about how they grew up and what they grew
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up around as it is about kind of routine, you know, it's like we
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humans fear change, right? And if it's been certain way for
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so long, and then you say, well, let's do it differently now.
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And then people like Like why should we do it differently?
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This is how it's always been and it's like yeah but what if it
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can be better, you know, and obviously female priesthoods.
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I mean that there's generally mean what's the difference men
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and women can do the same job? There's no General, I mean it's
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It's, I mean, I would use the word archaic in terms of that
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kind of mindset, but I do understand, I think it's just
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Generations. Generational differences.
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You know what I mean? But it's a yes it's obviously a
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good thing that that that's that's changing for the better
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bees. Interesting that there is still,
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that kind of attitude. I mean, you know, it's been a
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long time since we've kind of like I remember those jokes the
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women in the kitchen jokes in the in the kind of I want to say
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the mid-to-late 2000s. There was a suppose, I could
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Resurgence of it because I know that when you say that, when you
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say I experienced this, I can imagine a scenario.
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My head, it wouldn't have been a joke.
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It would have been like sort of an aggressive attack or
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something. Like this is where you belong
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kind of attitude whereas in the 2000 and when we were teenagers
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and that was thrown around like a joke, it was intended as a
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joke but it was obviously clearly very offensive and it
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hurt a lot of people. And I remember that the kind of
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humor that we had back then extended to everything wasn't
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just sexism, it was everything and I feel like these days you
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can't you make jokes like that. stuff and it's an interesting
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kind of Position to be in because on one hand it's like
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should we not be able to make jokes about how Society is
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maybe? Maybe not.
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But on the other hand it's like well.
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It. I suppose it would be fine if
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these weren't real issues that are affecting everyone.
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You know what I mean? Like, taking it back to, you
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know, things like women's rights and the Woman's Place in
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society. These days, I'd say there's a
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lot of very Progressive moves saying the business world, you
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see, many female CEOs and stuff like a female prime, minister's
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there's a lot Progressive changes, but yeah, I suppose
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bring it back to the church. You know, because it's such an
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old institution and old religion and stuff I suppose.
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And yeah. All the people running it at the
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top part of male. It's, you know, it's kind of
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Going to affect people's attitudes, but I think it's very
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good that people like yourself challenging that and yeah, I
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want I want to dive more into exactly what it is.
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You're looking to expose. Now you said obviously that
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those this kind of Scandal that is related to women in the
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church, right? So priests and everything but
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what exactly are these kind of Secrets and Scandals with?
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The custom Catholic Church. Like what's the end goal here
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with this book? Because I mean, I think many of
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us are many people. Listening home will have kind of
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heard of all the cat. The, the scandals in the
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Catholic church, over the years, both here in the UK in Italy.
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You know, it's, there's always things you hear about.
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But this knowledge here when I was reading through about your
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book and I was reading about what you're trying to expose,
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this is something I'd never heard of.
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So I'd love to learn more about like what it is.
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I suppose in as summed up version of like wow It is,
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you're trying to kind of get out to the people.
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Yes, the biggest finding is that, if first of all, if you're
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a Catholic, when the time your little, you are just told as a
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woman, you can't be a priest and that there never were women
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priests in this Church's history.
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Well, beyond having woman priest in the Catholic Church.
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There were women Bishops, women deacons.
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I'm going back in the early church history.
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But the most fascinating, Discovery was Jesus is own
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mother. Mary Mother of God was a woman
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priest and she was called Mary priest and her title was.
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The model for all priesthood in the Catholic Church.
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And this was from about ad 300 up to 1927.
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And when I say 1927, that's shocking because I never heard
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the Mary. First of all, was a priest,
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excuse me. Mary's title was taken away from
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her back. 1927. And this was really done
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low-keyed, because my mother, my grandmother, they never heard of
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this. They didn't realize this a Roman
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official over there. Had some newspaper, man, run a
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real smile article about this, and this Roman official is
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saying, isn't it? Well, the way you, you took care
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of this question. This is a question that should
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be put to sleep and they're referring to.
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The question is Mary Mother of God, I mean that is just so
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disrespectful but John wins. Guards had a book, The
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ordination of women in the Catholic church and he said well
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what was going on that all of a sudden after these centuries
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they would take that title from Mary and isn't it a coincidence
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at that time there were Other Faith denominations woman that
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wanted to be priests as well so of course this was for the
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Catholic church, we take this we basically you know take the
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title away from her. This is never talked again.
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And if anyone goes snooping around.
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Well this obviously from that point on it would never be
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mentioned. And that's what they did with
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the original history way back. They when they got rid of them
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and Priests they were very crafty, you know, how they did a
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Christian. There was they started their own
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law canon law. When Jesus was alive, there was
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no canon law. Well, in this canon law, they
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had a specific caveat, If a woman was a priest or held some
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Priestly position with this new canon law that they
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Incorporated, she could never again be on the church altar.
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So that really put the kibosh on any woman back in the early
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centuries. Whether they were women priests
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deacons or Bishops, that just ended it all very conveniently.
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And of course, then the scribes of the church from that point on
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would have no reason to bring up.
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Yes. Woman had these roles, you know,
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let's face it. Whatever we have now from
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tradition is something that's been you know, orally over the
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centuries repeated and repeated. But if you have something that
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the church has said, well no that's ended.
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Well then these writers have no reason to obviously.
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Never mention that again. So it's very conveniently
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forgotten and this is the whole issue.
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This early church history, The Church fathers will not
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acknowledge So basically, I feel it's put them in the driver's
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seat because do they have the press?
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The hierarchy of the church is the Press hounding them.
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No, because what is the issue there is no issue there?
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Never were woman priest, but what really irks me is in the
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light of biblical research that we now know.
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Mary was a woman priest and as well as these other woman in
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different religious position. The church will not recognize
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that truth. They have not moved forward and
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that truth. So again, why is this an issue?
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Because there's so many when you think of all the diathesis, he's
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like right in the United States. Well, let's go worldwide.
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Let's go to your area. Let's go to Ireland.
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Let's go to Australia. Let's go to Asia.
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Let's go to Seoul. America, there's millions of
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American woman out there that don't even know there's any type
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of an issue. And I mean isn't that sad in
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2021 it were in that state? Yeah, it's interesting while you
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were talking. I was kind of think it just pour
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up so many different things. So many different points.
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For example, what you were talking about about how there's
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been this major shift and almost like, you know, A conscious
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effort to try and stop women from being priests in the
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church. It's I kind of feel like that
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has existed throughout history like it.
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Begs the question that, you know, because there is
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historical evidence of women's place in society, being you
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know, much more equal than it than it has been, you know what
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I mean? Like, I can't think of any
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specific examples, but I know in certain civilizations, I've
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definitely not missing history before that, you know.
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Time's the female would be equal to or even superior to the man
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in some cases I think in more like, you know, possibly
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Egyptian culture stuff like that.
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But the point still stands that that existed.
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And it makes me wonder sometimes if maybe, you know, these things
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were trialed and then like the men controlling the society,
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that then sort of decided to double back because of Well,
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basically politics, I think all of these things generally bull
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down to politics, to some degree, you know?
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Like again another thing that came to mind when you were
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speaking, it reminded me of Henry the 8th who very famously
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in order to divorce someone because he was oblivious
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Protestant, wasn't he originated and then yeah, he then created
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Church of England. Yes.
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To divorce a woman like that, which I know it's not.
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In a way, it's kind of funny to me.
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It's like he literally created his own version of this religion
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just so you could do this one thing but you know still yes but
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it's is it is interesting because it's like changes like
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that, right? I would I would imagine would be
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throughout history would be very calm and this moves that you're
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talking about where it's deliberately put in place to
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prevent women from being preached that to me.
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He screams politics screams, some sort of thing, where
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possibly women were getting too much control.
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And then the men within that Faith felt that that was a
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danger of some description. I don't know why silly.
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I would, I would think it would be more sensible to come
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together as a society, both men and women and try to work
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through these things. But we move.
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But, you know, again it just to me, it always sounds like
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politics, particularly with the Catholic church because with
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we've Christianity, like, I'm personally not Just by, I have a
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keen interest in like all religions and I kind of see
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every religion has always been split between the actual Faith.
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What your everyday person believes in users, as a Guide to
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Life. I mean, people often forget
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that, that religion is the basis for societal rules.
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You know, our laws are based on religion.
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So, you know, it's a very important part of culture and
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Society, but on the other hand, there is this big control
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aspect. And To aspect see famously in
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the UK. You know, we flipped and flopped
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between Catholic and Protestant, you know, over the course of
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many different rains and kings and queens and such and has been
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different versions of the Bible. According to, you know, the King
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James Bible. For instance, it's a very
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interesting concept to me that these things get Rewritten
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changed tweaked in order to reflect that particular rule
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leadership at that time. And of course, very convenient
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if they need for some reason to make change.
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Well they can definitely you know like you said, be very
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creative, you know, doing whatever they're doing.
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Yeah supposedly nothing is supposed to change but if it's
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needed like in this case this new law came in to take care of
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a woman. Well the argument normally the I
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hear is always that it's interpretations.
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It's different interpretations of the same.
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Thing, you know, like like I in Christianity alone.
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I mean, I've seen, what is that Protestant Catholic Church,
21:58
Christian Science methodism? I don't understand that
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Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-Day Adventists and start
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like there's all these different versions and often they'll be
22:08
like big particular rules that they Clash on.
22:12
But then as you said, you know, they all kind of are based on
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the same principles but these things that they differ on Like
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points for contention from the sound of things and a lot of
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cases. But I think the church does
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always get a bit more scary. And concerning when it comes to
22:32
things like money and, and power and such because, obviously, in
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the UK, you know, before money became like the, if you want to
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call it new religion. You know, it was the church was
22:44
the the way that you would control the people because, you
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know, everyone was Christian or Protestant or whatever, you
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know. If you read any history books in
22:53
the UK, they'll always tell you that, you know, when there was a
22:56
shift, a major shift from one Queen to one king and they
22:59
decided. Okay, now a Protestant you had
23:01
to go with it or you'd be executed.
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It was like that serious like religion was that serious?
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Whereas obviously these days you know it's a thing that you know
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it's up to you you believe what you want?
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You can you can be, do you can be Hindu you can be seek, you
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can be whatever you choose to be which is great.
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Obviously. But yeah like when again when I
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look at like around the world particularly like the Vatican I
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look at that and I'm kind of thinking like there's this a lot
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of things that are just a bit iffy.
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They're like the very fact that like there's this whole V in the
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Vatican church in the Vatican. Sorry that just has all this
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material. That has pretty much never seen
23:46
the light of day and it's restricted at, I mean if there's
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nothing to hide, why is it? What'd you know, it makes you
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wonder, what kind of knowledge is there like, what
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thought-provoking material is there?
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That could change things or expose things or, you know, I
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mean, more definitely and they said it goes 53.
24:05
You know, the bookshelves figuring like the width, you
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know, the bookshelves 53 blacks long underground, and why would
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I love to get in there? I would have to have someone
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with me that would And I like, Greek right Aramaic French,
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whatever the different languages are Italian but it actually
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unfortunately the everyday person can't go in there.
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They basically said what little I read was that you had a maybe
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have like, special education on degree, maybe you were working
24:43
for your doctorate at something and that whatever the specific
24:47
subject is it can't be an area. Area that someone else already
24:54
did something on. So there are different
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definitely, you know, rules and regulations even on that.
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So unfortunately, no, it's not open but there is another reason
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is, you know, how they say that. Oh, woman were never priests.
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Well, as you said, what is in those vaults?
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Beyond the biblical research that's been done by like John
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wins guards. He was a former Catholic priest.
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There's Catholic religious sisters.
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Christine shank has an excellent book out on Christina and her
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sisters and they go into the catacombs.
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And they really do research. It's interesting of the diagrams
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on the catacomb law walls and like one else tration is the
25:39
bishop always sat in a chair that, which had a very high back
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to it, so he's there. And obviously his, you know,
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Priestly attire and he's officiating a man to be a
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priest. Well, now on the left side of
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the wall, you have the same thing that high back chair, but
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now there's a woman in that chair.
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So it's just interesting how that history is there, whether
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it's on the inscriptions on stones that they found, you
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know, of religious priests woman.
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Priest the artifacts of that time.
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I just love history because it just really obviously brings
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alive. That particular period, what was
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going on? But when you were talking just a
26:29
few minutes ago, You have to remember if you go back into the
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church history, that's where you really get.
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An idea of why is there this awful disparity, that men seem
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to be up on the top and woman are down on the totem pole?
26:48
Well if you go way back in history, our church law in the
26:53
Latin, the Theologian Canon lawyers, they Incorporated Roman
26:59
law and they They formed and shaped it from Roman law, which
27:04
wasn't very friendly their civic law with woman woman, unless
27:11
they had money or they had land. They were just obviously really
27:15
nothing. So it started way back then and
27:19
if these Roman theologians are incorporating such a law which
27:24
is not equal for a woman, I mean, and then you bring that
27:29
into the church. Well, right?
27:32
Woman already had a few strikes against them.
27:35
You know if men are viewing woman already is down below but
27:40
there's five specific reasons that the Catholic Church says
27:45
that women can't be priests. All right.
27:49
Now these are supposed to be biblical reasons and yet with
27:53
the research they have all been proven that it's cultural
27:58
Prejudice and the first one One is that women were believed not
28:03
to have been made in the image of God because again, men at
28:07
that period basically had dominion over woman.
28:12
So in their minds. Well gee I mean how can this
28:15
woman be, you know, equal to God.
28:19
So then we move on and then there was a belief from Paul
28:24
where he said, basically, that woman shouldn't be teaching in
28:27
the church. Well, they actually had a common
28:32
law at that time and it said that woman were so mentally
28:38
feeble feebly minded and as well, they had this awful,
28:43
emotional instability. So this particular condition
28:48
miraculously was attributed more to women at that time than men.
28:54
So, I mean, how can we have a woman out there?
28:56
Teaching in public, you know, she's got this.
28:58
Say of it. And then there was the belief
29:01
that woman all woman, carried the sin of Eve, and you have to
29:06
go way back into Genesis for this, but miraculously, there
29:11
were perfect candidates at that time, for priesthood.
29:15
And these were the men in the church because the woman were
29:19
believed to have sinned. So, they weren't the best
29:22
Stellar candidates and then we all know Jesus picked the 12
29:26
apostles, you know, to represent the 12 tribes, This is real.
29:30
Well, again you go back and you study the culture.
29:34
Ancient Israel was really patristic in nature.
29:39
So just imagine if Jesus, at that time, tried to put in 12
29:45
woman to represent the 12 tribes of Israel.
29:49
He would have been driven over some cliff and then, lastly,
29:53
again, the last reason it's not biblical at all, Jesus was a
29:57
male. So So therefore at the
30:00
Eucharistic consecration of the the bread and the wine we have
30:05
to have only men up on the altar.
30:09
But my question is Christian. Why hasn't the church hierarchy?
30:15
Come out and made some type of a pronouncement?
30:18
We are sorry, but these five biblical reasons really aren't
30:25
biblical at all. And this is another thing, this
30:29
is blatant, they're using supposedly this tradition which
30:34
is solely biblical to keep women from becoming praised when it no
30:41
way is biblical but read your cultural prejudice. yeah, I
30:47
could see her eyes all day about that and I mean, it's largely
30:53
nonsense keter ministers. Just thinking about that just
30:59
makes me angry. But anyway, It's like I said
31:04
before, I think I really do think it comes down to business.
31:08
You know, there is such a thing as the business of church and,
31:11
you know, as we know that's obviously run by men.
31:15
And for whatever reason, I believe they're scared probably
31:20
about women being in power, which I really don't get out of
31:26
really don't understand that to be honest.
31:28
Yeah. No.
31:28
No just sort of basic level but also just In general Jin and I
31:33
mean like like like that. Okay, what you were lying out
31:37
there that those biblical reasons like things like our
31:39
women were deemed as not being emotionally kind of sound in
31:45
terms and that would affect the Judgment or something like that.
31:48
That to me read what? Historically at least reads as
31:51
like a just an ignorant kind of thought process that people
31:56
might have had in the past because they were just less
31:59
educated science. Maybe wasn't as good for you.
32:01
I mean like, I mean science is changing all the time, but we've
32:06
learned clearly that your memory and men and women and women are
32:10
perfectly equal, sound body. And mind is its has nothing to
32:13
do with gender or anything or like that.
32:16
It's more kind of random as, for General, I mean, like every it's
32:21
it's genetic. It's it's it's based on many
32:24
factors but it has nothing to do with gender.
32:26
Really that mean, I think there are, you know, certain things
32:29
here and there as far as As as like traits that the maybe women
32:36
have that men don't have and vice versa but you can't really
32:40
always generalize. It's more kind of just like it's
32:43
might be the case in most instances but not exclusively
32:46
kind of thing. But anyway my point being that
32:49
maybe like that's where that comes from and then it's just a
32:54
combination of a laziness that you know, it hasn't been
32:57
challenged enough and it hasn't changed and I think that really
33:00
does come down. To, who is at the top?
33:03
I think, if you had women at top in power, that be changing real
33:08
quick, for obvious reasons. And you know, people like
33:13
yourself obviously making the move to to try and expose that
33:19
and try and push that is an excellent start to that.
33:21
And, you know, it's a really good thing that you're doing.
33:25
But yeah, I think it does come largely down to that and I'm
33:29
probably yeah, their sense of history, and Ian and stuff.
33:32
I mean, I've seen a lot in the UK here, obviously, I don't
33:35
follow the church a lot, but I do think see things here and
33:39
there about progressions. In terms of making female Bishop
33:43
Bishop, making female pretty stuff like that.
33:46
I do see that from time to time and as I understand it's not
33:49
something that's become prevalent everywhere but it's
33:53
beginning to it kind of sounds like the church here is coming
33:57
into the 21st century very slowly. maybe it's, yeah, maybe
34:03
it's just kind of like a A question of time.
34:07
But yeah, yeah. It fascinates me all of this, to
34:12
be honest. I mean, since we were talking to
34:15
better what is your kind of view on, you know, the Vatican and
34:21
its influence on Christian it because obviously they still
34:23
have a lot of power and influence and as we were talking
34:26
about before, like, religion and Christianity differs all around
34:30
the world, there's all different thoughts and feelings, and about
34:34
the religion. And, obviously, You just
34:35
cultural differences that then impact on that.
34:38
But, you know, obviously, they still have like, a really big
34:42
kind of influence over Christianity everywhere.
34:44
But what's your view as an individual?
34:48
What do you sell on that? Well, particularly and in
34:52
relationship to the woman priest issue.
34:56
The Vatican has really done this awful cover up.
35:00
What do I mean back in? 1976?
35:04
The pope has his own. Own commission, pontifical
35:07
biblical commission, they looked into the question of woman being
35:12
priest in our church. The commission's findings
35:16
explicitly said there is no biblical reason to prevent women
35:22
from becoming priest. Alright, hello 1976 here we are
35:28
today they have completely sat on this.
35:33
They haven't moved down there. And then go back, two years
35:37
prior there was another International theological
35:40
commission and they were looking into the question of women
35:45
deacons in our past church and if you go back, there were
35:51
three. Greek studies that were all
35:54
really alike and they were talking about the ordination of
35:58
like a deacon, whether it was a man, whether it was a woman,
36:02
they would be on the altar in the church, the Ship would be
36:06
officiating over them in prayer. Lays his hands over them, Stole
36:12
was placed on the May last all was placed on the woman and both
36:16
the man and the woman as well. Received the cop to drink from
36:21
and the woman then were known as deaconesses.
36:25
So my question is here again they sat on that.
36:29
There would have been known need for Pope Francis to convene the
36:34
20s. 16 commission and woman being deacons and hair again,
36:41
where have we gone with this? It's just totally unbelievable.
36:47
And it really is, I its cunning, it's deliberate, women should be
36:56
priests. And that's why I think this
36:58
whole issue it's forcing. There's other Church
37:03
organizations that a lot of Catholics don't realize that
37:06
have been working on this issue. Since back in the 70s there's
37:10
call to action there's future Church there's Roman Catholic
37:15
woman priest women's ordination conference And so many of these
37:21
organizations have the explicit proof that look at.
37:25
This isn't really even an issue. Here's the truth and yet between
37:31
what they present to Rome what the own these commission's
37:37
Church commissions have presented to the hierarchy.
37:40
They will not move on that truth.
37:44
And so I think really the issue should be presented differently.
37:49
Lee wants Catholics. Find out the truth.
37:55
Rome once and for all has to be held accountable for what
37:59
they're doing or in this case, really for what they're not
38:02
doing. I mean just, wouldn't it be
38:05
marvelous if every single Catholic here in the u.s.
38:10
worldwide would just ask Rome are ask their own pastors,
38:16
whatever. Why isn't our church following
38:22
its own commission's findings? Like, you know, that Men can be
38:25
praised that woman were deacons. I know it's ridiculous because
38:29
it's so simple. But something has to happen to
38:36
to make this happen and this is a whole other Area.
38:40
Christian it's like a it's like I'm running into a roadblock,
38:45
there are so many Christians Catholics that believe
38:49
explicitly in what our church hierarchy has told them.
38:54
Look at theirs. Never never were catholic woman
38:57
priest. So then you get someone like
38:59
myself or other woman out there, well, who were going to believe
39:08
and they just won't even momentarily.
39:11
Try to, you know, consider seeing the subject in a
39:16
different slant. There's no room to wiggle around
39:20
it under it, it's this way and isn't Add fine and dandy for the
39:26
Catholic Church hierarchy, because then they're stirring up
39:29
these other Catholics. And I mean, it's so sad because
39:33
they are, they believe that they're, you know, fighting
39:37
protecting their church when they don't realize that it's the
39:42
other way around. Why do you think that this is
39:48
the case? Why do you think that we haven't
39:50
gotten to that point yet where women are at the very top and
39:54
our priests and stuff? Like, obviously, we have kind of
39:56
discussed it a little bit but like in your personal opinion,
39:59
why don't you think we've got there yet?
40:02
Well, it's it all stems with the present hierarchy.
40:06
When you think of even our present Pope Francis, which they
40:09
got was a breath of air. After our former Pope ratzinger,
40:15
back in 2010, when he was a cardinal, he had a book on
40:18
Heaven and Earth. And in there, he made the
40:21
statement that these women feminists, they received
40:26
everything they wanted back when woman received the right to
40:30
suffrage. Each.
40:32
Whoa, wait a minute 1920. I mean, seriously, take that
40:38
issue out of the public realm. Bring it back into the church
40:42
today if our the pope, which is obviously the head person, the
40:48
hierarchy is it no wonder that the issue of women's inequality
40:54
in our church is in Is it even being recognized?
40:58
If that's seriously where they are coming from.
41:04
And it's just it is, it's mind-boggling to even try to
41:11
understand that from a woman's perspective.
41:15
Yeah, I kind of obviously I'm a also.
41:18
I do obviously it's like differently, but yeah.
41:20
I feel the same. I kind of especially.
41:24
We're what you just laid there. Yeah.
41:25
The suffragette movement, obviously was sort of like,
41:29
really in the its biggest point at the top 20s and days.
41:32
I think it did probably start the end.
41:34
The tail end of the 19th century possibly.
41:37
I don't know if that's 100% correct but I do remember.
41:40
Yeah, twenties and thirties. That's when you really hear
41:42
about major moves they made. But yeah, when you Shutter speed
41:46
up and everything. And you look at where we are now
41:48
versus where we were. Then obviously there's been a
41:51
lot of progress in that time but then there are still areas that
41:55
aren't quite there. Like, simple simple, things
41:58
like, okay, I know this more business related, but still, I
42:05
remember the last kind of ten years or so, maybe a little bit
42:08
more, there was the issue of, like, female tennis stars.
42:11
Not getting paid the same amount of money as Mount Everest.
42:15
And you often hear about that many types of Industries and
42:18
they never give you a reason. You don't mean that the only
42:23
feasible reason I could see that they wouldn't and allow that and
42:28
this is this has nothing to do with gender.
42:30
This is that she's just like the only thing I can think of is
42:33
that the female tennis stars play less sets than the men.
42:38
They play three as opposed to five.
42:41
So maybe you could argue, there's less tennis being played
42:43
there for pay less money that but that would be like the only
42:46
logical reason I could think of if we're talking about
42:49
everything else it's literally the same.
42:51
Like, even like the woman soccer players.
42:54
Remember when they showed the men's exercise room with all the
42:59
equipment? And then they span back to the
43:02
woman, they have really nothing, they had nothing but then of
43:06
course as soon as that was on there, the TV news, then things
43:10
got rectified very quickly but I mean that was a definite slap in
43:14
the face and even lately it's the woman teams that have been
43:18
winning. Yeah, women's women's I mean I
43:22
don't watch women's football, but I know I've heard that, it's
43:24
it much more competitive than men's for bullet much more
43:27
interesting because men's football, there's just so much
43:31
money in it. Now it's just only about money
43:34
and because of that, it's pretty much always the same five teams
43:38
every season. Whereas in the feet, like
43:39
football, women's football league.
43:41
I mean, for instance, fun fact, the English women's football
43:45
team has won the World Cup several times.
43:49
I call him the last time, but fairly fairly recently, but
43:53
obviously the men's team 1960s was the last time we won quite a
43:57
difference there, span of time, base, is interesting about
44:01
football because I think that's a really good point.
44:04
Women's football is is an incompatible men's.
44:06
Football is very interesting, as far as because I mean, I think
44:10
it all comes down to money in marketing and as you said it is
44:15
slightly getting better. Like, for instance, I live here
44:17
in Manchester, right? And It's two major teams are,
44:21
there's Manchester United and Manchester City.
44:23
If you drive past the Manchester City Stadium, you can see two
44:27
massive kind of backdrop, posters on the side of the
44:31
stadium, and they show both the women's football team in the
44:34
men's football team winning at 2018 seasons of the like that.
44:39
But they're featured prominently together.
44:42
And I was like that, that kind of suggests like a shift in the
44:46
right direction. We're slowly getting there but
44:48
the perception is still and of the same don't like women's
44:50
football is not put on the same pedestal as men's football and I
44:55
think it comes down to money like not investing enough money
45:00
in it and as far as where the money is invested not pushing it
45:04
enough. In terms of marketing, I, I
45:06
can't remember. The last time I saw like an
45:08
advert for women's football or like hear about it on the radio,
45:12
or do you know what I mean? But you hear about meant you
45:15
don't? Ya be here men's football all
45:17
the time everywhere. Hi, I think that's that's
45:22
largely the issue, but as you said, whenever these things come
45:25
to lie and they get exposed enough, and they get into the
45:27
public Consciousness suddenly you start seeing Progressive
45:30
changes really quickly but that that's not because people care.
45:34
That's because the company or institution or whatever is
45:38
afraid of the pr damage because it can destroy, you can destroy
45:41
your business. So you have to react on it to
45:44
show all you here. Yeah, we're making these
45:45
Progressive changes. We're, you know, we're doing
45:48
everything we supposed to do it like, Even CSR as a concert
45:51
Corporate social responsibility because I come from a marketing
45:54
background. So, like, I just whenever I see
45:56
all this, I'm just like, this is, this is nonsense.
46:00
But I do look at it. A lot of the time is just the
46:03
thing that they use to kind of just improve their reputation,
46:08
you know, or in some cases, improve their tax interests, you
46:12
know, if you do a certain amount of Charity, every year, you
46:15
avoid tax and actually, that brings me nicely back to a
46:19
really Point about about Christianity, they wanted to
46:22
cover and now this is more about America, but I see a lot of
46:26
like, the churches like, okay, there's this really famous
46:30
Pastor in in America. A common for his name but he's
46:36
literally got like, really scary crazy eyes.
46:39
And he's like, like, an old-fashioned pasta is like a
46:45
picnic all until a pastor's or something like they used to,
46:47
like, to tell tell. Televangelist?
46:51
That's the one. Yeah, so it's very specific
46:54
style of Christianity where they constantly like hell and
47:03
brimstone. It's like like I like it in the
47:07
eighth as I'm standing the 80s as when it really became popular
47:10
and I tried doing that telethons over the TV in saying your you
47:13
must donate your money you know and reserve your place in heaven
47:17
and blah blah blah. Tammy, Faye, and her husband, he
47:22
ended up in prison and they did. They had like one of those big
47:27
schemes. Yeah.
47:29
Now, this guy's not even in prison.
47:30
This guy. I wish I could name a name.
47:34
He's been memed like crazy. It's going to bug me.
47:38
Oh, when I do the clips for this afterwards, I'll look him up and
47:42
it'll be, and then you'll see what who I'm talking about.
47:44
But basically, this, this particular pasta, first of all,
47:49
His church, he's billionaire. He's a legitimate billionaire
47:56
and he's managed to do that because of the tax exemption
48:00
that you can achieve in the states via religion.
48:04
If you run a charity, you can completely avoid tax and
48:10
obviously, because all the money that's coming in is through
48:12
donations. You know, they can keep 100% of
48:16
it. So he's built himself like kind
48:20
of leaving said like a massive huge private compound.
48:26
He flies in private jets around the world.
48:30
He has his own little kingdom. Yeah.
48:33
Yeah. And and you know whenever he
48:35
gets interviewed about it, you know because obviously it's been
48:37
heavily criticized about it. He always just says there is
48:40
going to feed the poor for sure. I mean he makes Argument that,
48:45
you know, he flies around the world constantly and, you know,
48:47
he's always doing the work of God and stuff and that, you
48:49
know, he needs. He needs a private jet in order
48:52
to do that and he needs this huge compound to do this work.
48:57
Only grandson a common prison. A my honest.
49:01
No, that doesn't ring a bell. Okay.
49:04
He was OK, during the covid pandemic.
49:07
The beginning of it he was like he kind of came out and and and
49:11
very famously like try to He was like blessing everyone over the
49:16
camera and sort of his hand was like really weirdly wet, and he
49:20
was just like, I don't know, trying to remove covid through
49:25
the TV screen or something. Yeah.
49:28
Now you got my Fascination who this is, I got to find his name
49:33
and I'll send it to you because it's fascinating because I just
49:37
wanted to ask you about the tax side of things because I think
49:39
he's always been interested in the business side of the church
49:42
and how, you know, there's a See, there's a big difference
49:45
between, you know, giving a bit of a couple of dollars in the
49:48
church collection pay versus, you know, making regular
49:53
donations, large sums of money that this guy has very famously.
49:57
Often told and threatened his people and been like, you know,
50:00
if you know, if you don't have the money, you need to write a
50:03
loan, make a loan for this. You need to you to find a way
50:06
because, you know, if you're not making pledges, then, you know,
50:11
you're turning your back on their religion, or their sort of
50:13
stuff, and it's Very extreme stuff.
50:16
I must say basically the only be prevalent in the in the United
50:19
States. That's what I've noticed.
50:21
Okay. I haven't seen that in other
50:22
parts of the world. I could be wrong.
50:24
So apologies for that, but it just seems and I think that is a
50:27
systematic issue. I think it comes down to the
50:31
American tax system and the way the business works and let
50:34
enables you to do that. And obviously, as you sort of
50:37
highlighted there, there's been other people that have done that
50:40
so it's not the first time and it is basically the fraud, you
50:43
know, I can't This guy's gotten away with it.
50:45
I mean, he's clearly there's nothing religious about that
50:49
like, you know, it religion, And it's at its core is about
50:54
providing, you know, a system of beliefs for people to live their
50:59
lives by and concept for them to believe in and to live a good
51:03
life and stuff. It's not about giving all your
51:07
money away to fund someone else and then book your place in
51:13
heaven. I mean I'm not religious but if
51:15
if I was religious you're not thought about this before, you
51:20
know, plenty of times, I would think that if there is a God or
51:23
whatever or entity of some description, you couldn't book
51:28
your place into their good graces by giving money to an
51:31
enemy or the concept of repentance like, you know, oh
51:34
it's okay ever do all these horrible things because I repent
51:37
for them every time and it's at that kind of feeds the point
51:39
doesn't it's like you repent sort of once you know to sort of
51:46
say okay yeah I did all these bad things I'm sorry I From my
51:49
mistakes and we move from this point onwards and we don't do it
51:52
anymore. yeah, I mean That's that's right.
52:01
There are the biggest Hypocrites.
52:03
Really, you know, you step back and you wonder how what acting
52:10
school they went to because it's so sad because the majority of
52:13
their money is coming from a lot of people which really don't
52:17
have that money to give. Exactly.
52:19
And then how they're totally, you know, ruining their lives.
52:23
But you know, what difference does that make?
52:25
I'm have my Playing, I have my swimming pool, I have whatever,
52:30
you know, I can do this or that and it's that hypocrisy and like
52:36
back in the Catholic church that they did a study and like, back
52:39
in the, the Millennials it's more prominent that the
52:44
millennial woman are leaving the Catholic church because they
52:49
have just had it with the hypocrisy.
52:51
They know, if they get a calling from Jesus, that it's going to
52:54
go. Nowhere.
52:57
And I am trying to reach the, the younger Millennials because
53:03
really if you're fed up, which I believe you are and it said to
53:07
say is a Catholic, this is your chain to speak out to speak up
53:15
because our church we know now we have the truth behind us and
53:20
I called these men so-called men of God, really.
53:25
If you look at Jesus, Tree of truth of inclusion of love.
53:32
What are these present men doing as a former chaplain?
53:36
A minister of the Catholic Church?
53:37
Would you say that the church is kind of adapting?
53:40
Well, to the changing nature of our world, because obviously
53:43
religion has always kind of in general as a concept, is always
53:47
kind of struggled to adapt to, you know, the changing demands
53:50
of society in certain areas and sometimes that's reflected in
53:53
the, in the kind of Conflicts of interest, this put it sometimes
53:58
between two in the nature of our world is changing, and then this
54:02
this institution, that's many. Many, many years old.
54:05
But yeah. Do you think it's adapting,
54:07
well, or whatever? Whatever it is, that's very sad
54:18
to say, because people think I'm trying to tear this church down,
54:21
I love the Catholic church, but I just wanted to get back to the
54:26
Worlds, the ministry of Jesus. And that's why we need change
54:36
and we need this church to be held accountable once and for
54:41
all to try to explain, you know what they're doing?
54:46
Pope Francis is thank God, a breath of fresh air and he has
54:51
tried to make some moves towards helping woman but you Have to
54:57
remember, there's What's called the curia.
54:59
And this is like an institution. That's Been there forever and
55:06
they're very upset with the Pope because they think they can't
55:10
understand. Why is he making all these moves
55:12
to be more inclusive, you know, to make changes.
55:16
So he's getting all that, flak from them, they don't want to
55:19
change. And then again, you have so many
55:22
Catholics again which are all status quo.
55:28
I don't know. I know, as you get older, I
55:31
obviously you're out, you know? And I'm not trying to put born
55:33
the one basket, but so many of them are getting older, they
55:37
can't help with the change, but then, It's complacency in the
55:44
church. We had what we called, pray and
55:47
Obey. And you knew back, like, back in
55:49
the 30s, 40s, 50s 60s, you never would question your pastor, ok?
55:55
So people really aren't questioning what's happening
56:00
within the church and plus they're just fed up because
56:05
nothing has ever changed. So why should I get involved?
56:09
And that has to change? And that's why I've been younger
56:13
Millennials. You have had energy.
56:17
You have the truth. Now, let's get together and let
56:22
us help. Hold the hierarchy accountable.
56:26
I do have a petition on my website and I'm asking to bring
56:30
back the title and Mary, I'm asking them to give the equality
56:36
back to woman. That Jesus said all are one in
56:39
Christ Jesus, there is no man or Woman bring the equality judge
56:46
woman that we need in our church.
56:48
And let's just finally get together and there could be so
56:53
much we could do in this church. The church we are the people of
56:57
God Vatican. 2 has said that net, I know that might sound
57:01
like pie-in-the-sky words but if we get things turned around, we
57:07
have to remember, we are in the church and let's act that.
57:11
That way and remember our voices are important.
57:17
Degree Mall. This switching up here, but I'm
57:23
intrigued. What's the biggest life lesson
57:26
that you've learned so far? Well, I've sadly learned that.
57:37
the truth, I guess this was the most frightening part was you
57:44
would expect of our organizations the truth from
57:49
your church. and and then to find out the way that they've
57:56
gone about that with woman, how they've completely lied to them
58:02
and in such a I can't even think of the right.
58:06
The right words, what it is. It's sickening is a woman.
58:11
How your own betrayal of trust? You know what they've done and
58:16
what they've continued to do? And unfortunately, the Catholic
58:22
church is like any other organization big conglomerate,
58:27
they need that money. And now you have these victims
58:31
of sexual abuse and everything is going into bankruptcy.
58:36
And the church is saying that they don't have the money for
58:39
this and yet in the New York dassies, I think it was Cardinal
58:44
Dolan or for wasn't New York, it was Chicago.
58:48
He Took all this money and put it into a cemetery fun.
58:54
So that that couldn't be used to pay victims.
58:58
So unfortunately, it's things like that.
59:02
Just there would never be a part of Jesus's Ministry and the life
59:08
lesson is if you feel something needs to be changed, don't be
59:14
afraid to speak up. And and move on and move
59:21
forward. Don't get stuck with something
59:23
like this, which is so awful. And you think all, I'm just
59:25
going to leave the church. Why should I do anything?
59:30
No, you're only one person, but you start something and then
59:35
every other person starts something.
59:38
And yes, we'll come together. Really like a grass roots
59:41
effort. Thank you for that, by the way,
59:46
I haven't got anywhere, but I've just been having a lot of Camera
59:49
problems lately. And my camera is just decided to
59:52
leave suddenly. So that's fun.
59:56
But it's to God's. Yeah, and all that, it heard it
1:00:02
so. Well, you're the guest of honor.
1:00:04
Anyway, it's about you, it's not about me anyway but yeah, I'm
1:00:08
actually drawing it to an end to a close for today.
1:00:10
So do you have any upcoming projects or so?
1:00:13
Maybe some final thoughts that you'd like to share with us
1:00:15
today? Yes, I will be right.
1:00:18
Ting another book and actually I have started writing another
1:00:22
book. And I kept getting the, in my
1:00:27
mind, I was thinking of this view of like woman priest,
1:00:31
women's ordination and I completely stopped writing that
1:00:35
first book. And then I went ahead and read
1:00:38
wrote this book. So I will be doing that.
1:00:42
And if anyone wants to maybe learn more, you know about this
1:00:46
church history, my website, Is your radical truth that calm you
1:00:52
are radical truth deck. Calm and my book is called
1:00:58
scandal in the shadows. The original priest mother Mary.
1:01:04
Excellent. Thank you very much for sharing
1:01:06
has been an absolute pleasure talking with you and Christian.
1:01:10
Yeah, I will say to all my listeners, make sure to go and
1:01:13
check out. Margaret, Mary O'Connor's book
1:01:15
scandal in the shadows. Make sure to go follow her and
1:01:17
our projects. It's and yeah for everyone who
1:01:21
is listening to the Christian we podcast on YouTube Spotify.
1:01:25
Apple podcast Google podcasts. Leave us a review let us know
1:01:28
your thoughts and let us know who do you like to see on the
1:01:32
show next what you'd like to hear on the show next and as
1:01:36
always be safe be well and I see in the next one.