Latest / Karl and Crew / Embracing the Truth with Abdu Murray & Waking up to the Goodness of Christ with Susie Larson

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Embracing the Truth with Abdu Murray & Waking up to the Goodness of Christ with Susie Larson · Karl and Crew

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  S1: Broadcasting from Chicago, across North America and beyond. It's Carl
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  S1: and crew. Come as you are an experienced guide. Overcome
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  S1: what seems impossible and live as you never imagined. Start
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  S1: your morning with a laugh.
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  S2: Practical from the Bible. Tips and tricks to kill. Not
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  S2: tricks but tips and tricks.
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  S3: Tips and tricks to kill. Tips and tricks.
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  S1: Delivering the truth daily.
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  S4: All of my attempts to, you know, prop myself up
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  S4: with achievement in good works. But God wasn't impressed by that,
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  S4: even if other people were.
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  S2: The gospel changes everything.
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  S5: Freedom in Christ. Man, it's like that backpack of cement
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  S5: just falling to the ground.
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  S1: Now from the call of Hope Studios, this is Carl
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  S1: and Crew. I want to preface this by.
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  S6: Saying I am not a great prognosticator on sports, as
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  S6: a general rule at all. Okay, mainly because I vote
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  S6: with my heart. So I'm not very good at that.
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  S6: But I will say mid-season I picked and I even
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  S6: talked to one of the players on Gonzaga. His dad,
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  S6: I said, this is a national championship team. When Michigan
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  S6: beat Gonzaga by 40 points mid-season.
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  S7: Oh man. Oh yeah, they were.
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  S6: So I didn't even watch any of these games like
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  S6: last night. I didn't see.
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  S2: It. I didn't realize it was on. I thought it was.
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  S6: Well, there you go. It's hard to see it when
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  S6: you don't even know it's on. But but I'm telling
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  S6: you man, that Michigan team, when I saw him mid-season,
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  S6: I'm like, wow. And you know what makes him so good?
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  S6: And Ali appreciates this because my goodness, her hubs is
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  S6: with the Bulls as one of the coaches. Um ball
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  S6: movement is everything isn't it Ali.
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  S4: Oh it's I mean it's so important from the from
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  S4: the youngest to the oldest. When you have a team
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  S4: that really shares the ball and gets a lot of
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  S4: people involved, that's always going to be a dangerous team,
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  S4: more so than a team that relies heavily just on
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  S4: on one person to get going.
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  S6: I mean, you got to have shooters for sure, but
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  S6: you can percentages go spread the wealth.
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  S4: Move that ball around. It was I saw a chunk
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  S4: of the game. So congratulations to Michigan our Michigan listeners.
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  S4: You get the national championship in your home state. I
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  S4: was I was pumped I had. I'm a big Illinois
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  S4: fan living. I grew up in Champaign-Urbana right near the
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  S4: campus of University of Illinois. So fighting a line I
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  S4: went down in the Final Four.
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  S6: Yeah.
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  S4: So I was bummed about that. So I didn't really
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  S4: feel like I had a dog in the fight for
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  S4: the national championship. But I guess you go Big Ten.
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  S4: I'll take a Big Ten team to win.
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  S2: That's funny that, you know, it's you're like, well, you know,
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  S2: Inter-conference pride because sure.
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  S4: Why not?
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  S2: Uh, my, my mom's side of the family are Ohio
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  S2: State fans, and I can't. My cousin's literally won't say
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  S2: the word Michigan.
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  S4: Oh my.
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  S2: They call it they call it the M word. And
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  S2: and if we're here in Chicago, you know, we took
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  S2: him downtown and I said, I said, hey, what street
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  S2: are we walking on? They said Ichigan Street. They're like,
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  S2: we're not using.
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  S4: Not even saying Michigan Ave, which is goodness.
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  S2: Okay, so that's your conference ID for every school.
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  S4: That's that's taking it to another level.
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  S7: Oh yeah. Yeah. But congrats Michigan, their second title since
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  S7: the 1980s, late 1980s.
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  S6: There you go. Yeah. Okay. Uh, they were just about
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  S6: to go around the dark side of the moon for
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  S6: this space travel in the history of the world. And
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  S6: before they went around, oh, my goodness, one of these
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  S6: young men, I can call him that because I know
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  S6: he's younger than me. One of these young men on
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  S6: the Artemis two had a few words to share. Young Turner,
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  S6: you got it teed up.
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  S2: I got it. Let's do it.
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  S8: The mysteries of the cosmos. I would like to remind
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  S8: you of one of the most important mysteries there on earth.
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  S8: And that's love. Christ said in response to what was
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  S8: the greatest command that it was to love God with
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  S8: all that you are. And he also, being a great teacher, said,
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  S8: the second is equal to it, and that is to
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  S8: love your neighbor as yourself. And so as we prepare
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  S8: to go out of radio communication, we're still to feel
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  S8: your love from earth. And to all of you down
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  S8: there on earth and around earth, we love you from
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  S8: the moon.
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  S6: Man, I gotta tell you, I know he's got a name.
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  S6: But for me now on he is space, Rev. Space
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  S6: he is space Rev. What's his real name? Young Thunder.
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  S2: Victor Glover.
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  S6: Victor Glover, all in Jesus follower. Glover.
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  S4: I love that NASA astronaut Artemis two pilot with his
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  S4: Christian faith.
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  S3: Open, I'll say open.
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  S6: He's quoting from.
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  S3: Mark.
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  S6: 1230.
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  S2: Well, you know what? It is a great opportunity for
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  S2: him to take that time and say something because the
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  S2: whole world is listening, guys.
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  S6: It's just huge.
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  S2: And he knows that. He knows the whole world is listening.
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  S2: So he says, I'm going to take my my shot
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  S2: and give the gospel. Give, give. Jesus Christ proclaimed.
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  S6: There's in the midst of all this craziness. I mean,
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  S6: you've got this downed weapons officer, this colonel that was rescued,
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  S6: by the way, one of the most. I mean, they're
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  S6: saying it's it rivals any kind of a rescue or
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  S6: special ops in the history of warfare to get this
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  S6: guy plucked. It was a big deal. I mean, he
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  S6: was injured.
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  S2: Injured.
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  S6: For 48 hours, bleeding. He had to climb a 7000
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  S6: foot summit, hide in a crevice while his beacon sending
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  S6: out location. It's just crazy. He said God is good.
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  S6: God is good. And they grabbed him off that mountain.
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  S6: Oh my goodness. So these little smatterings of all these things.
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  S6: But then you got an astronaut saying, hey, by the way,
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  S6: the great commandment, the greatest of all. Here it is, guys.
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  S6: It's just beautiful, man. Okay, coming up here in a minute.
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  S6: I had a chance to sit down with who I
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  S6: talk about, man. Myth, legend. Holy cow.
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  S4: We know that's that's your go to.
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  S6: Oh my goodness, this guy Abdu Murray who buckle up,
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  S6: get a swig of water. Grab a little cup of
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  S6: coffee too.
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  S1: Breaking chains and running free. You're listening to Carl and crew.
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  S6: This whole week we're tackling Hope rising. And it's this
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  S6: great reality that hope is not a strategy. It's not
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  S6: a whim. It's not something we stumble upon. It's a person.
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  S6: His name is Jesus. But that hope continues to grow
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  S6: as we've been looking in Romans five. Today, even through
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  S6: suffering which produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces. Yes,
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  S6: hope and hope will not put us to shame. Abdu
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  S6: Murray with us right now, speaker, author, attorney who specializes
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  S6: in addressing issues where religious faith and emerging cultural trends
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  S6: intersect and they collide. Abdu, it's so good to have
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  S6: you with us, man. What I love about Romans five
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  S6: is you've got this hope that is found in Christ.
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  S6: When we fall to the ground like a kernel of
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  S6: wheat and die to ourselves and receive him as Lord,
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  S6: and then it springs up to this life. But Paul
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  S6: is not ignorant of the fact that life's tough. Then
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  S6: it's not easy. I wish it was one and done right. Abdu.
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  S9: Yeah, yeah, I wish it was. But unfortunately there's a lot.
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  S9: And then we're eventually done. But until. Until then. Until then,
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  S9: there's a lot to go through.
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  S6: Your story is one of extraordinary grace and almost surprising
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  S6: grace to some who wonder, can God save? Fill in
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  S6: the blank. A wayward kid, whatever. A friend and neighbor.
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  S6: And I want us to begin way back where you
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  S6: were raised in Islam. I mean, that was your guiding
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  S6: truth at some level. What level was that and what
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  S6: led you on this quest to find Jesus?
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  S9: Yeah, so I was pretty serious about it. I was
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  S9: raised to believe that Islam was true, and everything else
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  S9: that contradicted it was false. And so I was sort
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  S9: of an evangelist for Islam from an early age. I
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  S9: was raised in the Metro Detroit area. We have lots
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  S9: and lots of Muslims here, and the area I grew
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  S9: up in was sort of not a lot of Muslims, actually.
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  S9: When we moved out from the area I grew up in,
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  S9: and so I encountered Christians and I wanted them to
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  S9: become Muslims. But along the way, there were some Christians
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  S9: who not only could respond to the objections I was
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  S9: giving them, but actually had a couple of objections of
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  S9: their own for me to have to wrestle with as well.
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  S9: So that really began a journey where I was confident
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  S9: Islam would win. But what's interesting is, is that it
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  S9: was the Bible. As I was reading it to try
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  S9: to find flaws in it, the Bible itself, which actually
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  S9: began to show itself to be this credible document, which
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  S9: wasn't just giving me, you know, platitudes and ideas about
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  S9: good living and how you can live with this false hope,
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  S9: but real substantive hope and the beauty of the language
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  S9: and the reality of what it was saying was being
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  S9: backed up by the history I was looking into. By
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  S9: the philosophy I was studying with, the theology I was studying,
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  S9: and I was going into what al Gore would call
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  S9: An Inconvenient Truth is.
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  S3: That.
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  S9: Is that the truth of the Bible was becoming more
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  S9: and more pungent, more and more salient in my life,
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  S9: and it was contradicting that of Islam. Now, it took
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  S9: me nine years to get there. I found all the
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  S9: answers I needed sufficient to become a Christian within two years,
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  S9: but it took me seven more years to wrestle with
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  S9: the consequences of what that would mean. Because for Muslims
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  S9: around the world, no matter what country they live in,
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  S9: being a Muslim is a huge part of your identity.
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  S9: Religious identity is in a subset of who you are.
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  S9: It permeates everything about who you are, from friends to
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  S9: family to education to work. Everything is a subset of that.
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  S9: So becoming a Christian meant giving all of that up.
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  S9: And that was a tough thing for me to do.
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  S9: And so I wrestled with it because, as I've often said,
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  S9: the truth is not hard to find, but it is
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  S9: hard to accept.
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  S6: Yeah, no, you're right. It's interesting because becoming a Christian,
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  S6: being raised a Muslim is very akin to becoming a
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  S6: Messianic Jew. I mean, you're leaving behind traditions, systems, inheritances.
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  S6: There was risk of life and limb.
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  S9: It's interesting you say that because one of the books
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  S9: that was important to me during my journey was a
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  S9: book by a messianic Jew whose daughter came home from
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  S9: college and had become a Christian while he was Jewish
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  S9: and rejecting Jesus as Messiah, he set out to debunk
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  S9: her to try to get her back to what he
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  S9: believed was true Judaism and his book, Betrayed by Stan Torsion.
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  S9: The late Stan Torsion, was important to me because it
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  S9: opened up my understanding that it wasn't that the truth
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  S9: was hard to know. It was that it was hard
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  S9: to embrace. And so it's so funny you bring that up,
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  S9: because that was a big part of my coming to faith.
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  S6: What's the name of that book, again.
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  S9: Called Betrayed by Stan Telchin T e l c h
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  S9: I n. Very short book, but a really good one.
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  S6: Yeah. When I did that, because our listeners are keen
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  S6: to what's being said here and they're going to want
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  S6: to know. Okay. So I got asked a question, I
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  S6: made a social media post and one came back and
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  S6: a guy just genuinely said, he said, I got no
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  S6: bone to pick with you, but I just want to
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  S6: know what sets Christianity apart from all the other world religions.
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  S6: And I appreciated the question. I gave him a short,
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  S6: concise one, and I'm wondering if this was if this
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  S6: was anything to do with your story. I simply said,
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  S6: With biblical Christianity, Christ is at the center. He's done
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  S6: the work. We don't have to. He did the work
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  S6: with every other world, religion, a person. We are at
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  S6: the center. We got to do the work to get
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  S6: right with God. We know that's true. I mean, even
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  S6: the religion of materialism, you got to do it. You
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  S6: got to make it happen. How much did that weigh
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  S6: in to your conversion and transformation in Christ at all?
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  S9: It factored in quite a bit, actually, because one of
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  S9: the things I had done was I was not just
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  S9: studying Islam and Christianity, but I was studying every other
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  S9: ism and schism. There was, you know, and what I
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  S9: had come to see is that all religious systems are
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  S9: only superficially similar and fundamentally different, actually fundamentally different. However,
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  S9: they're all similar in one way, and it's the way
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  S9: you nailed it is that what they tell you is,
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  S9: is that through your effort, whether it's the religious works
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  S9: you do or the karma you work off, or the
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  S9: social things you contribute to, or education or resource redistribution,
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  S9: whatever it is, we can eventually manufacture our own nirvana,
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  S9: our own utopia. We can go into God's Paradise. Yes,
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  S9: in certain religious systems, you need God's mercy. Islam is
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  S9: big on mercy, but all of that is essentially earned
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  S9: and which makes you the solution to your problem. What
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  S9: is so unique, but also uniquely true about the Christian faith,
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  S9: is that Jesus doesn't tell you what you want to hear.
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  S9: Jesus tells you what you need to hear, and what
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  S9: you need to hear is that you cannot be the
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  S9: solution because you are in fact, the problem. And so
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  S9: we need someone who's not us to save us from us.
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  S9: And so he says that he says two things. He says,
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  S9: you are uniquely and beautifully and transcendently made in the
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  S9: image of God, which makes us inherently valuable, but we've
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  S9: strayed far from that. Do I need any more evidence
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  S9: than my own life and my own thought life, and
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  S9: my own emotions and my own envy? To know that
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  S9: I know that. Which means that I can't be the solution.
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  S9: And so Christianity is utterly realistic about this. How I
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  S9: look at it, Carl, is that if an ancient book
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  S9: pinpoints the human condition with unparalleled accuracy, and its accuracy
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  S9: is sustained over the course of millennia, it is unlikely
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  S9: to be crafted by a handful of shepherds and some fishermen.
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  S9: But if it sustains itself the way the Bible has,
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  S9: then maybe those shepherds and fishermen were inspired by the
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  S9: God who created everything.
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  S6: My goodness, Abdu Murray, our guest right now, we're going
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  S6: to have a link coming up here in a moment.
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  S6: In fact, I'm going to give it right now. Text embrace.
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  S6: If you can't stick around, I get it. Text embrace
• 14:22
  S6: to 800 555 7898. You are going to get linked
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  S6: up with one of the greatest apologists that God has
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  S6: walking this planet right now and no joking. Text the
• 14:34
  S6: word embrace to (800) 555-7898. Coming up. So the warning in
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  S6: Galatia by Paul was, what are you doing? What in
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  S6: the world are you doing? Why have you begun in
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  S6: the spirit? Now you're trying to work it out in
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  S6: the flesh. I'm going to talk about communicating that utter
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  S6: dependence on God and how we do that for the
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  S6: world around us, to provide the hope that we all need.
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  S6: And even speaking truth back to us who are born
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  S6: again in Christ Jesus. More with Abdu Murray straight ahead.
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  S1: Get to know the team behind the scenes. Follow Carl
• 15:13
  S1: and crew on Facebook and Instagram.
• 15:16
  S6: My guest right now, Abdu Murray. Guys, speaker, author, attorney
• 15:20
  S6: who specializes in addressing issues where religious faith, emerging culture,
• 15:26
  S6: and these trends intersect and collide. We got to boil
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  S6: it right down to the bottom here. 2000 years ago.
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  S6: The church in Galatia, Abdulx, they were trucking on the
• 15:35
  S6: right path, man. It was all Christ and Him crucified.
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  S6: And it was him. Him. He started it. He's going
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  S6: to complete it. I know that was written to Philippians,
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  S6: but they would have initially believed that because we all
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  S6: do when we're born again. Oh, Abdu, how do we
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  S6: get off on this thing that happened to Galatia? They
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  S6: began to work out in the flesh what was begun
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  S6: in the spirit. Why do we so tend to go there?
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  S6: And you, as an apologist, what do you say to
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  S6: get us back and keep us back dependent on Christ?
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  S9: Well, I'll take the apologist part first, because the important
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  S9: thing here is to understand that every single time that
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  S9: we resort back to our own righteousness and our own
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  S9: works to try to justify ourselves before God, or rather,
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  S9: to go back to Adam's sin and want to become God,
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  S9: is proof that the Bible has been right all along.
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  S9: Every single time we fall into This is part of
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  S9: the sinful condition we find ourselves in. And you see
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  S9: throughout the scriptures in First John, the whole thing, talking
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  S9: to believers, he keeps on saying, if we say we
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  S9: have no sin, we lie. We have to constantly remind
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  S9: ourselves that we're being sanctified over time, but we are
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  S9: not there yet, and we're becoming more and more like Jesus.
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  S9: But there is this ever present sort of like pull.
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  S9: Paul talks about it in Romans seven and over and
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  S9: over again, where there's this pull where we want to
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  S9: justify ourselves by our works and we want to do
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  S9: certain things, but then we disappoint ourselves over and over again.
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  S9: And the church of Galatia, starting off white hot and
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  S9: really on fire, ends up having to ignore they've ignored
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  S9: that old nature, which sort of closets way back and
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  S9: tries to get at us. And so we we ignore
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  S9: that to our peril. So I think what we need
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  S9: to do is pay attention to those scriptures. And what's
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  S9: interesting is Paul actually says, is that if we walk
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  S9: in step with the spirit, we will not gratify the desires.
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  S3: Of the flesh.
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  S6: By the way, that's one of the most astounding is
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  S6: not a strong enough word promises in all of scripture.
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  S9: Oh yeah. Absolutely. But it's important to understand the depth
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  S9: of the promise because it says, walk in the spirit
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  S9: and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
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  S9: Notice what he doesn't say. What he doesn't say is
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  S9: you will not have. Because what is happening is that
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  S9: we get disappointed because we still wrestle with the temptations,
• 17:47
  S9: and we still wrestle with our need to justify ourselves.
• 17:50
  S9: And the Bible is honest about that. And it says
• 17:52
  S9: when you become a Christian, you're not going to have
• 17:54
  S9: suddenly all of your desires and the earth is not
• 17:58
  S9: going to the world is not going to tempt you anymore.
• 18:01
  S9: That's still going to happen. It's still going to happen.
• 18:03
  S9: And the Bible is honest about that. And it doesn't
• 18:05
  S9: give you a self-fulfillment piece. You're never going to you're
• 18:08
  S9: never going to be touched again kind of way. The
• 18:10
  S9: New Age thought does it tells you realistically. But if
• 18:13
  S9: we walk in step with the spirit and that spirit
• 18:16
  S9: is the important part, that's the whole point. Walk in
• 18:18
  S9: step with the spirit, not in step with your flesh.
• 18:20
  S9: You will still feel the pull of the flesh, but
• 18:23
  S9: you won't gratify the desires of the flesh. And of course,
• 18:26
  S9: in communion with each other as a church, both with
• 18:29
  S9: a capital C and a little C, we can help
• 18:32
  S9: each other through this. That's why we confess our sins
• 18:34
  S9: to one another, that we may be healed. The Bible
• 18:36
  S9: and this is the apologist in me. The Bible has this.
• 18:40
  S9: It's this corpus of material that all of it intersects
• 18:44
  S9: with each other in beautiful, interlocking ways, that it almost
• 18:48
  S9: like what scientists call irreducibly complex. Yes, it's so complex,
• 18:52
  S9: but you can't take out any one part of it
• 18:54
  S9: because if you take out one part of it, the
• 18:55
  S9: whole thing falls apart. Not because it's fragile, but because
• 18:59
  S9: it's robust and it's so beautifully interlocking.
• 19:02
  S6: I was just going to ask you, Abdu Murray, our
• 19:04
  S6: guest right now. I was just going to ask you,
• 19:06
  S6: what's the overarching hope rising from the Scripture as compared
• 19:10
  S6: to the Quran or the Bhagavad Gita, or your instruction
• 19:15
  S6: manual on how to be a materialist, which is basically
• 19:18
  S6: the American dream? What is the overarching, uh, hope rising
• 19:23
  S6: from the scripture that absolutely crushes these other worldviews.
• 19:28
  S9: It gives the believer that which those worldviews only give
• 19:31
  S9: a pale shadow of. When you look at them and
• 19:34
  S9: they say, we rely on God and we, you know,
• 19:36
  S9: and Muslims would say that Hindus, certain versions of Hindus
• 19:39
  S9: would say that and all these things. But ultimately there
• 19:41
  S9: is this sense in which we can, through our efforts,
• 19:44
  S9: please God in a way that is salvific and we
• 19:47
  S9: can have salvation that way. What the Bible says is
• 19:50
  S9: not that we are saved by our good works, but
• 19:53
  S9: saved unto good works. And I'll give this one little
• 19:56
  S9: snippet from my background as a Muslim. There is the
• 20:00
  S9: Imam Ali was considered one of the greatest imams in
• 20:03
  S9: the history of Islam. He was Muhammad's son in law
• 20:06
  S9: and his cousin and one of the first male believers
• 20:08
  S9: in Islam. And he wrote a series of sermons. Now
• 20:11
  S9: listen to this. He says, among believers there are three.
• 20:14
  S9: There are those who worship God to attain his heaven.
• 20:17
  S9: That is the worship of the merchant. There are those
• 20:19
  S9: who worship God to avoid his hell. That is the
• 20:22
  S9: worship of the slave. But there are those who worship
• 20:25
  S9: God out of gratitude. That is the worship of the
• 20:28
  S9: free and the noble. What's interesting is only in the
• 20:31
  S9: Christian faith can.
• 20:32
  S3: You do the.
• 20:33
  S9: Same. Exactly, because God has done it for you. So
• 20:38
  S9: you're not trying to get heaven. It's already been secured.
• 20:40
  S9: You're not trying to avoid hell. It's already been avoided
• 20:44
  S9: for you. You can worship out of freedom and nobility,
• 20:48
  S9: solely out of gratitude, and then all your good works
• 20:51
  S9: flow from that. That's the hope that's rising. What other
• 20:54
  S9: worldviews wish were true is only and actually true in
• 20:57
  S9: the Bible.
• 20:59
  S6: Who Abdou. God is a good God to give you
• 21:04
  S6: life and to impart it to us through your sharing here. Oh,
• 21:09
  S6: this is great. Abdu Murray again, text the word embrace.
• 21:13
  S6: Embrace one word to 800 555 7898, you're going to
• 21:19
  S6: get linked to his website, you're going to get apologetic hits,
• 21:21
  S6: you're going to get shorts, you're going to get blogs,
• 21:24
  S6: you're going to get books. You're going to get all
• 21:26
  S6: the resources you need. Text embrace to 800 555 7898.
• 21:35
  S1: It's Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
• 21:39
  S6: I don't know if there's a better apologist out there
• 21:41
  S6: right now. Abdu Murray has got to be top of
• 21:44
  S6: the heap.
• 21:45
  S2: He's incredible.
• 21:46
  S6: I mean, his perspective having been raised, uh, really defending
• 21:53
  S6: Islam and spending nine years trying to convince others of
• 21:58
  S6: it and then really wrestling with the texts in a
• 22:01
  S6: way that I've never heard a man. So pin this
• 22:04
  S6: thing down.
• 22:05
  S4: Oh, and I mean, what caught my ear is when
• 22:07
  S4: he said that it took about two years into this
• 22:10
  S4: nine year search that he was on, it was enough
• 22:13
  S4: evidence in his mind. He knew that that it was true,
• 22:17
  S4: and that the last seven years, it took seven years
• 22:20
  S4: to wrestle down what he knew would be the cost
• 22:24
  S4: to convert to Christianity. Giving up so much of what
• 22:28
  S4: had been his identity that that was fascinating to me.
• 22:32
  S6: Yeah. What a what a guy. I mean, I just
• 22:34
  S6: can't say this enough, guys. If you want to get
• 22:37
  S6: linked up with an apologist who is being so mightily
• 22:42
  S6: used of God for such a time as this, you
• 22:44
  S6: got to get this link. And I'm I'm saying that
• 22:47
  S6: to people because we've had hundreds. They're just flying out
• 22:50
  S6: the door right now. But just text the word embrace
• 22:53
  S6: to (800) 555-7898. Embrace to 800 555 7898. I know I
• 23:01
  S6: go on and on about this guy, but my goodness,
• 23:04
  S6: God is using him. Ali.
• 23:06
  S4: I just his perspective is, I think really a helpful
• 23:11
  S4: one too. He's a good one to share with people
• 23:13
  S4: in your life who who have these kind of questions,
• 23:16
  S4: maybe consider themselves an intellectual and come at it from
• 23:21
  S4: a standpoint of, I'm going to need more evidence to
• 23:24
  S4: convince me sometimes that that can be a smokescreen. But
• 23:28
  S4: for those who genuinely, honestly have questions, that they're just
• 23:31
  S4: looking for somebody who is willing to engage with the
• 23:34
  S4: tough issues, I think he's he's one of the best.
• 23:37
  S6: Yeah, truly. Okay, we're going to open up phone lines
• 23:40
  S6: and you might be saying, well, what do you want
• 23:42
  S6: us to talk about?
• 23:44
  S4: What do you want us to talk about?
• 23:45
  S6: I got I got an idea here flows out of
• 23:48
  S6: one of the most epic passages on Hope. We're talking
• 23:50
  S6: Hope rising this week. It comes out of Romans five
• 23:53
  S6: one through five. Therefore, since we have been justified by faith,
• 23:57
  S6: we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
• 24:01
  S6: Through him we also have obtained access by faith into
• 24:04
  S6: this grace in which we stand. And we rejoice in
• 24:08
  S6: hope of the glory of God. Now that's the first
• 24:11
  S6: two verses, and that stands alone. It's like, yes, we
• 24:14
  S6: have hope. We've been regenerated by the power of the
• 24:16
  S6: Holy Spirit. We stand in this hope. But then Paul
• 24:19
  S6: goes on, not only that, he writes, but we rejoice
• 24:23
  S6: in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance
• 24:27
  S6: produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not
• 24:32
  S6: put us to shame. Here's the bookend of hope. When
• 24:36
  S6: we're born again, we have this great hope welling up
• 24:38
  S6: inside us, and then life hits us. So what Paul
• 24:42
  S6: is proposing here is this truth that we will have suffering,
• 24:47
  S6: but that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and
• 24:53
  S6: that character lets us look back with hope, with fresh eyes.
• 24:57
  S6: So we've got a question for you this morning.
• 25:00
  S4: We're asking you, as you consider this passage of Scripture
• 25:03
  S4: out of Romans five, what character did God produce in
• 25:06
  S4: you through suffering that gives you hope today? Think about it.
• 25:10
  S4: Think of maybe it was a period of trials or a.
• 25:13
  S4: You went through something really hard, but you can say
• 25:16
  S4: that God produced something in you, some character trait that
• 25:20
  S4: gives you hope. 805 55 7898 can you testify to
• 25:26
  S4: this today? 800 555 7898.
• 25:30
  S6: Yeah, give us a call. 800 555 7898.
• 25:36
  S1: He was running from God, but God's love brought him home.
• 25:40
  S1: Carl is in the crew. It's Carl and crew on
• 25:44
  S1: Moody Radio.
• 25:45
  S6: You know, there's inevitably going to be challenges suffering, trials
• 25:50
  S6: that we're going to go through. But the promise from
• 25:51
  S6: Romans five is that there's a hope that's produced because
• 25:55
  S6: through it we persevere. And out of that perseverance, character
• 25:59
  S6: is formed in us. It's a great promise. And you're
• 26:02
  S6: going to testify to it. 800 555 7898. Give us
• 26:06
  S6: a call. Let's go to the phone lines here.
• 26:08
  S4: Ali, let's go to Melanie calling in this morning from Yorkville, Illinois. Melanie,
• 26:11
  S4: what's that character that got produced in you through suffering?
• 26:18
  S4: Melanie go ahead. You're on with Carl and crew.
• 26:21
  S10: Hi. Um, yeah. So my mother passed away at the
• 26:27
  S10: end of December. Um, and a month after that, my
• 26:31
  S10: father ended up passing away. Um, they were both believers
• 26:35
  S10: in Christ. So we know, you know, death. Where is
• 26:38
  S10: thy sting? Um, and now my husband is now in
• 26:42
  S10: the hospital. Um, so it's just kind of been one,
• 26:45
  S10: one thing after another. And it's only by the grace
• 26:48
  S10: of God that I'm able to just put one foot
• 26:50
  S10: in front of the other and people ask me how
• 26:52
  S10: I'm able to continue on. And, um, instead of just
• 26:56
  S10: being a complete mess and I'm able to witness to
• 27:00
  S10: so many people and tell them that it's, it's his grace,
• 27:04
  S10: it gives me the endurance and the perseverance to keep
• 27:07
  S10: going in his name.
• 27:09
  S6: It's beautiful. Melanie. Good word. Sister from Yorkville. Boom. That's
• 27:13
  S6: why we call you the Boom crew. There's great lessons,
• 27:15
  S6: aren't there, Ali? Great lessons in this.
• 27:18
  S4: Yeah, and I mean, everyone who's called in has spoken
• 27:21
  S4: to that process. I mean, this is not kind of
• 27:23
  S4: a magic wand type of thing. I mean, there is
• 27:27
  S4: that endurance, that character that's being formed. What about you?
• 27:31
  S4: What character did God produce in you through suffering that
• 27:34
  S4: gives you hope today? 805 55 7898 Philip calling in
• 27:39
  S4: this morning from Aurora, Illinois. Good morning brother. Give us
• 27:42
  S4: your story.
• 27:44
  S11: Oh, good morning, my sister. Good morning crew. Steadfastness without
• 27:48
  S11: a doubt steadfastness. Now we know that steadfastness is connected
• 27:52
  S11: to patience and we shouldn't ask for patience, because, you know,
• 27:56
  S11: God will put us in a situation where we have
• 27:58
  S11: to be patient. You know, that's how God works. But
• 28:02
  S11: I do know that those that season I walked through
• 28:04
  S11: cancer and knowing that that it was inoperable, that they
• 28:07
  S11: could only do chemo and radiation. And I knew that
• 28:12
  S11: if it didn't work, that I'd be home with the Lord.
• 28:15
  S11: You know, that that, you know, you know the saying,
• 28:18
  S11: either he's Lord of all or he's not Lord at all.
• 28:22
  S6: Yeah.
• 28:23
  S11: And that taught me during that season that being steadfast
• 28:26
  S11: in my faith and really walking it out, putting shoe
• 28:30
  S11: leather to it, as we love to say, that's what
• 28:32
  S11: brought that steadfastness into my heart, into a practical way
• 28:37
  S11: of living it out in front of my wife, my kids,
• 28:39
  S11: my grandkids, the men that I minister my ministry. It
• 28:45
  S11: proved to me that if you truly are in, you
• 28:48
  S11: are in. Because Christ is living in you and you
• 28:51
  S11: are walking in faith, real faith.
• 28:55
  S6: You can't. It's it's boom, brother. It's hard to have us.
• 29:01
  S6: It's hard to have perseverance, and it's hard to have
• 29:04
  S6: steadfastness without trials, without challenges. But with them, it proves
• 29:13
  S6: the power of God. Good word. Philip, let's go back
• 29:16
  S6: to the phone lines. Ali.
• 29:17
  S4: Gabriela calling in from Lafayette, Georgia. What character did God
• 29:21
  S4: produce in you through suffering that gives you hope? Gabriela.
• 29:26
  S12: So when my daughter was two, she was diagnosed with
• 29:30
  S12: autism and she's about to be seven and she's still nonverbal,
• 29:35
  S12: and he's just taught me how to let go of
• 29:39
  S12: my expectations and lay them at his feet. And just
• 29:43
  S12: to look a little closer to see what he has
• 29:46
  S12: offered me.
• 29:47
  S3: Yeah.
• 29:47
  S6: Gabriela, what's your little girl's name?
• 29:51
  S12: Her name is Lelo.
• 29:52
  S6: Lelo. Father, in Jesus name. I'm praying over Lelo right now.
• 29:57
  S6: And Lord, you are a God of miracles. And we're
• 29:59
  S6: not presuming anything, but you say to ask. And so
• 30:01
  S6: I'm asking over a little precious Lilo, that you would, uh,
• 30:07
  S6: not only wrap your arms around her, but in. Continue
• 30:11
  S6: to show the beauty of this little girl to her mama.
• 30:14
  S6: But Lord, we we do appeal to you that you
• 30:17
  S6: would break through here. And Lord, we're grateful for the
• 30:22
  S6: things that you teach us in those desert seasons. Dark
• 30:26
  S6: night of the soul. You're a mighty God. And we
• 30:29
  S6: got a strong mama here. But we pray for Lilo
• 30:33
  S6: and we pray it in Jesus name. Amen.
• 30:36
  S4: Amen.
• 30:37
  S6: Taking your calls 800 555, 7898. What character did God
• 30:43
  S6: produce in you through suffering that gives you hope today?
• 30:48
  S6: 800 555 7898.
• 30:53
  S1: Take your next step with Jesus. Today you're listening to
• 30:57
  S1: Carl and crew.
• 30:58
  S4: We're taking your phone calls this morning, answering this question
• 31:01
  S4: that comes out of Romans five. What character did God
• 31:05
  S4: produce in you through suffering that gives you hope? If
• 31:08
  S4: it's true that our suffering produces endurance, endurance produces character.
• 31:13
  S4: Character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame.
• 31:17
  S4: What from your story proves that? 805 5578, 98 Adamson.
• 31:23
  S4: First time caller from Iowa. What character did God produce
• 31:26
  S4: in you through suffering?
• 31:29
  S13: Um. God produced compassion and empathy in me. Uh, I
• 31:34
  S13: lost five of my family members over the course of
• 31:36
  S13: five years, and now I'm a servant of Christ. He
• 31:40
  S13: called me back. I was a prodigal son and a
• 31:43
  S13: prodigal daughter, and he called me home to prepare me
• 31:47
  S13: to take care of the lost and the broken. And
• 31:49
  S13: that's what I'm doing now.
• 31:51
  S6: It's a beautiful story, compassion and empathy. You know, it's
• 31:55
  S6: an amazing thing. I went through a season of my
• 31:57
  S6: life that was just like that, and it's one of
• 32:00
  S6: the greatest fruits of challenges, is you begin to look
• 32:04
  S6: with totally different eyes at people around you. And that's
• 32:07
  S6: that's powerhouse. Welcome back to God's family, by the way, sister.
• 32:11
  S6: Welcome back. Let's go back to the phone lines here.
• 32:14
  S4: Ali Ruben calling in from Clearwater, Florida. What character did
• 32:18
  S4: God produce in you through suffering? Ruben.
• 32:21
  S14: Good morning and hello to everyone. I love you, brother. Um,
• 32:26
  S14: God has produced. Love you too, Baba. God has provided.
• 32:30
  S14: He's shown me his omnipotence, omniscience. The characters he's produced
• 32:36
  S14: in me is humbleness, humility, and he has grown my
• 32:40
  S14: faith because I believed and trusted in the Heavenly Father
• 32:45
  S14: and his perfect will. And because of those things I am,
• 32:49
  S14: I 100% can guarantee you when God says he is
• 32:53
  S14: the good Shepherd. He is the good Shepherd at the
• 32:56
  S14: end of the day. Period.
• 32:58
  S3: Boom!
• 32:59
  S6: Ruben! Way to go, brother. Way to go! Wow! The
• 33:03
  S6: beat goes on. Sue. First time caller. Chicago. What do
• 33:06
  S6: you say?
• 33:10
  S15: Lost my, um, husband 18 years ago. Of a massive
• 33:16
  S15: heart attack. It was unexpected. But God gave me the
• 33:22
  S15: strength to put one foot in front of the other
• 33:26
  S15: every single day. And because of that, I now have
• 33:30
  S15: a grief group that I share my story with. To
• 33:34
  S15: so many who are struggling and feeling that loneliness inside.
• 33:39
  S15: I ask God, please do not take my joy away. Please.
• 33:43
  S15: And to this day he has not. I am a
• 33:46
  S15: very joyful person and I serve the Lord. Thank you.
• 33:50
  S3: So much. What a.
• 33:52
  S6: Story. Boom! Sister. First time caller from Chicago. And the
• 33:57
  S6: beat goes on. How about you? Can you praise him
• 34:02
  S6: in the storm as you lean into him? You can.
• 34:05
  S1: She was trying to earn her way to God, but
• 34:08
  S1: God showed her she didn't have to. Ali is in
• 34:11
  S1: the crew. It's Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
• 34:15
  S6: It never gets old because it's true. Still, he is risen.
• 34:18
  S4: He is.
• 34:19
  S3: Risen.
• 34:19
  S7: Indeed.
• 34:20
  S6: Yeah, man, it's so true. You know, it's a it's
• 34:23
  S6: a bummer. By the way, I'm not a big goal
• 34:26
  S6: setting guy. You guys know that I'm big into X's
• 34:28
  S6: and O's, and the score will take care of itself.
• 34:31
  S6: But I did do a holy reset on this great celebration,
• 34:36
  S6: Resurrection Sunday. And I am convinced I put a post
• 34:40
  S6: out on social media about it that it's the January
• 34:43
  S6: 1st of every Christ follower. It's better.
• 34:47
  S7: Yeah. Ever since you said that, I think it was
• 34:50
  S7: last week. I, I, I loved.
• 34:52
  S4: That. I really did because I think it's so true.
• 34:55
  S4: January 1st is kind of the stereotypical reset. New year,
• 35:00
  S4: new you. But really Easter is where it's at.
• 35:03
  S3: Yeah. Yeah.
• 35:04
  S6: It's just it's such a day to commemorate. It's such
• 35:08
  S6: an event to anchor some of the things that we
• 35:11
  S6: know that needs to change in our life. And it's hopeful, man.
• 35:16
  S6: It's hopeful. We're talking about hope rising all week long
• 35:19
  S6: and we're experimenting. And so far it's paid off. Yesterday
• 35:23
  S6: was just tremendous. Oh my goodness. If you missed anything
• 35:27
  S6: from yesterday where do you want to point them.
• 35:29
  S4: Ali you can just text show to 800 555 7898
• 35:34
  S4: text show to 800 555 7898.
• 35:38
  S6: Yeah. What what we saw through AI with Drew Dickens
• 35:42
  S6: and with parenting with Arlene Pelikan, we saw that there
• 35:47
  S6: is hope even in some of these things that we
• 35:50
  S6: feel deep down, especially with AI. No, not especially AI
• 35:54
  S6: and parenting. Those are two situations that you go, oh,
• 35:57
  S6: give me some hope now.
• 35:58
  S4: Challenges galore.
• 35:59
  S6: Yeah, challenges galore. But in Christ Jesus, man, he gives
• 36:04
  S6: us the fuel that we need. There's a red thread
• 36:07
  S6: of redemption running through everything that we find ourselves up against.
• 36:12
  S6: You know, today we're going to anchor ourselves in a
• 36:14
  S6: passage of Scripture that has bookends of hope. And I
• 36:19
  S6: think hope is without a doubt. I know not think
• 36:22
  S6: I know from Scripture that there's great hope just being
• 36:27
  S6: in Christ. But hope is not something that you just
• 36:30
  S6: land on one and done. It's something that grows and
• 36:35
  S6: it grows in unusual ways. I don't want to give
• 36:38
  S6: away the punch line, but hope is the byproduct of life.
• 36:44
  S6: And we need that, don't we? Because this this life
• 36:48
  S6: that we live. It's filled with trials, right?
• 36:52
  S4: So I think our hope can wane sometimes. Certainly. Right.
• 36:56
  S6: It can. And it's all about approaching these trials, tribulations,
• 37:02
  S6: adversity with the scripture in mind. And we've got a
• 37:07
  S6: twofer coming up. We've got open in the Word of
• 37:10
  S6: God to the book of Romans. And Susie Larson joining
• 37:14
  S6: us here. And here's the thing that you need to know.
• 37:17
  S6: And Susie is an expert on this, that when you're
• 37:20
  S6: going through the dark night of the soul, we can
• 37:23
  S6: still hang on to hope, knowing that that's going to
• 37:26
  S6: produce something in us. It's really amazing. Susie Larson and
• 37:30
  S6: Romans five coming up.
• 37:33
  S1: Breaking chains and running free. You're listening to Carl and crew.
• 37:38
  S6: Well, we're talking hope rising all week long. And hope
• 37:42
  S6: is more than a concept or a strategy, right? Ally.
• 37:45
  S4: Hope is a person. Hope is in the person of
• 37:47
  S4: Jesus Christ.
• 37:48
  S6: You know, we find something interesting here in Romans five. Therefore,
• 37:52
  S6: since we have been justified by faith, we have peace
• 37:55
  S6: with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we
• 37:58
  S6: also have obtained access by faith into this grace in
• 38:03
  S6: which we stand. And we rejoice in the hope of
• 38:06
  S6: the glory of God. And that is so true when
• 38:09
  S6: we are regenerated by the power of the spirit. God's
• 38:12
  S6: grace poured out into us. So this new birth miracle. Wow!
• 38:17
  S6: Hope galore. But Paul doesn't stop there. In fact, I
• 38:20
  S6: love how he writes this. Not only that, can you
• 38:23
  S6: imagine him writing this? Not only that, but we rejoice
• 38:26
  S6: in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance
• 38:33
  S6: produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not
• 38:37
  S6: put us to shame. Susie Larson with us right now,
• 38:41
  S6: is this one of the most epic texts on Hope
• 38:44
  S6: rising in our life on a day to day basis? Suzy.
• 38:48
  S16: Karl. I can practically hear music as you read that. Really?
• 38:51
  S16: I mean, you just hear this crescendo, this thundering promise
• 38:54
  S16: from God that nothing in our lives is wasted, nothing
• 38:58
  S16: in our lives is wasted. And any trial that we
• 39:01
  S16: walk through will actually serve us well if we'll dare
• 39:04
  S16: to trust God in it and remember who he is
• 39:06
  S16: in it.
• 39:07
  S4: Suzy Larsen, our guest right now, well known radio talk
• 39:10
  S4: show host and podcaster. Over 16 million downloads. National speaker,
• 39:15
  S4: best selling author. You know, when we think about what
• 39:18
  S4: hope is linked to, we said hope is linked to
• 39:20
  S4: a person when circumstances are going well, when we're getting wins,
• 39:25
  S4: when we get the promotion, when our health is good,
• 39:28
  S4: it's easy to take for granted that we can remain hopeful.
• 39:32
  S4: But then as soon as we get our knees bumped
• 39:35
  S4: and bruised a little bit, when life knocks us down,
• 39:38
  S4: hope can be a very difficult thing to hold on to.
• 39:42
  S4: And that's something that I know that you have walked
• 39:44
  S4: and know well. Right.
• 39:46
  S16: Oh, that's so true, Ali. And you think about it, though,
• 39:48
  S16: when things are going well, I don't even know if
• 39:50
  S16: you realize how often we shift our hope onto our circumstances.
• 39:53
  S16: You know, and so there's sometimes a false sense of security. Yes.
• 39:57
  S16: When the winds are at our back and it all
• 40:00
  S16: seems to be going well, trial is the great clarifier,
• 40:03
  S16: and it actually serves us so well because it's in
• 40:06
  S16: that place. You know, scripture talks about, you know, that.
• 40:09
  S16: I think it's in Hebrews where it says, right now
• 40:11
  S16: things are being shaken, so that which cannot be shaken
• 40:14
  S16: can be clearly seen. And we, you know, often want relief.
• 40:18
  S16: We want things to go well, who doesn't? Right? Nobody
• 40:21
  S16: wants to walk through trial and trouble, but it's in
• 40:25
  S16: those places where you look around, okay, okay. What is
• 40:28
  S16: not shaking God's love? God's promise, his purpose for me
• 40:31
  S16: in this place. And so any in every trial that
• 40:35
  S16: I've walked through, I've lived with God long enough to
• 40:37
  S16: know it's a tempered storm even though it doesn't feel
• 40:40
  S16: like it. And it will serve me well. There are
• 40:43
  S16: treasures in those dark places. If I can keep my
• 40:46
  S16: wits about me and remember who God is, who I am,
• 40:49
  S16: and then look around going, Lord, there's something in this
• 40:53
  S16: that you have for me. So help me to discern,
• 40:56
  S16: to find hope in you. And I'm telling you what
• 40:59
  S16: something in you will be actually activated in your trial.
• 41:03
  S16: And then when you get victory through that, you're not
• 41:05
  S16: as afraid of the next trial. What I was doing,
• 41:08
  S16: and I've been very honest with you and past shows
• 41:11
  S16: with you because I was like, every time I come
• 41:13
  S16: up for air, I'd get smacked by another trial. I
• 41:16
  S16: developed a posture of bracing for impact. And if you're
• 41:19
  S16: in that place, you need a fresh dose of hope.
• 41:22
  S16: You need a fresh reminder that all is not lost.
• 41:25
  S16: All will be well, and God will see you through.
• 41:27
  S6: And love it. Susie Lawson, our guest right now, I'm
• 41:30
  S6: going to duck back in here to Romans five three.
• 41:33
  S6: Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that.
• 41:37
  S6: And look at the progression here, Susie. Suffering produces endurance.
• 41:41
  S6: In other words, we aren't ready made with endurance. So
• 41:44
  S6: suffering is requisite and endurance produces character. So we aren't
• 41:48
  S6: ready made with character. But this suffering and endurance produces character,
• 41:53
  S6: and hope does not put us to shame. This is epic.
• 41:57
  S6: I mean, Paul's laying down life as it is here. Susie.
• 42:01
  S16: That's so true. And I might step on a few
• 42:03
  S16: toes here, but I got to say, when you hear
• 42:05
  S16: like the health and wealth gospel, it does not serve
• 42:08
  S16: us well. Because if you don't normalize suffering on this
• 42:11
  S16: side of eternity, you will be perpetually disappointed. But all
• 42:15
  S16: you got to do is read the scriptures to see
• 42:16
  S16: that suffering trials are a part of life. Jesus himself
• 42:19
  S16: said so, but he is not. He's a you know,
• 42:22
  S16: he's our King. We serve a good father. He is
• 42:25
  S16: righteous and just. So anything he allows, he redeems. And
• 42:29
  S16: if you know anything about like exercise or fitness or
• 42:32
  S16: health of any kind, we all have thresholds, and the
• 42:35
  S16: only way to get to the next threshold is through opposition,
• 42:38
  S16: is through pushing back is through hardship. And so if
• 42:41
  S16: we could not idolize relief, comfort, ease, which we do
• 42:46
  S16: in the Western culture and normalize instead, trials are going
• 42:50
  S16: to be part of this life. But it's again, they
• 42:52
  S16: will serve me well if I will lean in and
• 42:54
  S16: know I have grace here, I have the promise of
• 42:57
  S16: God here I have the presence of God here. And
• 43:00
  S16: one last thing I'll say about this is, you know,
• 43:02
  S16: self-pity and, and kind of a faux victimhood mentality when
• 43:06
  S16: we go through our trials will absolutely weaken us. We
• 43:10
  S16: don't need pity. We have the promises of God. We
• 43:13
  S16: have the presence of God. And so when we start
• 43:16
  S16: to throw our shoulders back a bit to say, I'm
• 43:18
  S16: a child of God, and if I'm walking through this,
• 43:21
  S16: it's because there's something in me in my character that
• 43:24
  S16: needs formation for my next place of promise. So I'm
• 43:26
  S16: not going to take this as an indictment. I'm going
• 43:29
  S16: to take this as God is with me in this,
• 43:31
  S16: and I'm going to find reason for hope. And it's
• 43:33
  S16: not in an outcome, it's in the person of Jesus.
• 43:36
  S16: This is not a hope. So hope this is a no.
• 43:38
  S16: So hope when you hope in him, you cannot and
• 43:42
  S16: will not be disappointed.
• 43:43
  S4: I love that. Not a hope so hope a no.
• 43:46
  S4: So hope. Susie Larson, our guest this morning. Coming up.
• 43:49
  S4: Maybe you're walking through a time of great trial or grief.
• 43:54
  S4: Susie wants to share with you, coming up how grief
• 43:56
  S4: is a part of our journey, but the difference between
• 44:00
  S4: dark sorrow and holy lament. More coming up here on
• 44:04
  S4: Carl and crew.
• 44:06
  S1: Get to know the team behind the scenes. Follow Carl
• 44:09
  S1: and crew on Facebook and Instagram.
• 44:11
  S4: As you wake up on This Morning, we don't know
• 44:14
  S4: what it is that you're going through, but many of
• 44:16
  S4: you are going through something very difficult. We can know that.
• 44:19
  S4: I've heard somebody say that you're either in a trial
• 44:22
  S4: right now, you're coming out of it, or you're walking
• 44:25
  S4: into one. Susie Larson, our guest this morning when we
• 44:29
  S4: encounter seasons of trial, suffering, loss. We can slip into
• 44:34
  S4: a place of of deep sorrow. But what's the difference
• 44:37
  S4: between dark sorrow and holy lament?
• 44:41
  S16: You know, first of all, say, you know, a guest
• 44:42
  S16: on my show about seven years ago said, and this
• 44:44
  S16: was way before Covid, he said, one of the epidemics
• 44:47
  S16: of the church's unresolved grief. So let me say, there
• 44:50
  S16: needs to be space for holy lament and grief, because
• 44:54
  S16: we tend to just accumulate sorrow, loss. We may compare
• 44:57
  S16: our loss to someone else's and then minimize that loss.
• 45:00
  S16: We will walk around with wounds in our souls. You
• 45:03
  S16: let that build up. Over time. You will start to
• 45:05
  S16: accuse God of things that the devil is guilty of.
• 45:07
  S16: You will, uh, walk on a shaky foundation because when
• 45:11
  S16: you forget about the goodness of God, the redemption power
• 45:13
  S16: of God, you will suddenly feel shaky in the way
• 45:17
  S16: that you walk with God and not secure, and then
• 45:19
  S16: you will lose your hope. So I want to just validate.
• 45:21
  S16: First and foremost, we need time and space to, to,
• 45:25
  S16: to sit before the Lord and resolve those parts of
• 45:27
  S16: our story that are like open loops right now, because
• 45:30
  S16: those are the places the enemy is going to get in.
• 45:32
  S16: How did he why did he allow that? Did God
• 45:35
  S16: really say, you've got to resolve the hard parts of
• 45:37
  S16: your story in light of God's love, so that when
• 45:39
  S16: the enemy comes knocking, you say, I've talked with God
• 45:42
  S16: about this. He's redeeming my story. So that's one side
• 45:45
  S16: of the conversation. But the other side, maybe you've met
• 45:48
  S16: someone before who lost someone and never want to minimize loss,
• 45:51
  S16: but then they get into a place where they they
• 45:54
  S16: make an idol out of their pain, where their identity
• 45:57
  S16: is their sorrow, and they go to a dark, dark place.
• 46:00
  S16: And that is so tempting when you're grieving your losses.
• 46:05
  S16: And one of the ways, you know, one of the,
• 46:07
  S16: some of the markers of dark sorrow that's not of God, self-pity, ruminating,
• 46:13
  S16: no hope. Again, you get your identity from your loss
• 46:15
  S16: or you're making an idol out of your pain that
• 46:18
  S16: is not of God. And you're not the only person
• 46:20
  S16: being robbed in that. Because there is a sphere of
• 46:23
  S16: influence God has given you, and you are so lost
• 46:26
  S16: in your loss that you're missing the call of God.
• 46:29
  S16: On the other side of this conversation is holy lament
• 46:33
  S16: where you're honest with God about your sorrow. But we
• 46:36
  S16: don't grieve as those without any hope. With holy lament,
• 46:40
  S16: there's always expectant hope that you're moving through the valley
• 46:44
  S16: of the shadow. And you know in that place. Goodness
• 46:47
  S16: and mercy is chasing after you. He prepares a table
• 46:50
  S16: for you. He anoints your head with oil like he
• 46:52
  S16: identifies you and anoints and appoints you even in sorrow.
• 46:56
  S16: And people who are walking through holy lament. It is
• 46:59
  S16: like new wine. It's someone being crushed and something so
• 47:03
  S16: beautiful and powerful coming out of it. You want to
• 47:05
  S16: hear from those people. People who are grieving the right
• 47:08
  S16: way are a wellspring of wisdom, and that is what
• 47:11
  S16: the Lord wants and invites us to as we walk
• 47:14
  S16: through some of our losses.
• 47:15
  S6: How do we. Susie. Susie Larson, our guest right now,
• 47:19
  S6: because you're a big champion of hopeful expectancy or expectant hope,
• 47:24
  S6: which is exactly what Paul tells us to do in
• 47:26
  S6: Romans five one through five. How do you hold on
• 47:30
  S6: to lament and hopeful expectancy? How do you hold on
• 47:36
  S6: to two at one time?
• 47:38
  S16: Boy, that's a great question. And right as you're asking, Carl,
• 47:40
  S16: what comes to my mind is, is John the Baptist
• 47:43
  S16: when he was in prison. You know, Jesus says, no
• 47:46
  S16: greater man born to a woman than John. And yet
• 47:48
  S16: in his time of obscurity, I mean, he was where
• 47:50
  S16: the action was for a long time. And then he's
• 47:53
  S16: in obscurity and he had his doubts. And so he
• 47:56
  S16: sent his friends to ask, are you the Christ? This
• 47:59
  S16: is his cousin. Are you the Christ or should we
• 48:01
  S16: be looking for someone else? And the Lord doesn't fault him,
• 48:05
  S16: but he does give him an answer that's got some firmness.
• 48:08
  S16: And it's got a holy confrontation, I think, and an invitation.
• 48:11
  S16: You go tell John the lame leap. The blind receive
• 48:14
  S16: their sight, the deaf hear again. Blessed are those who
• 48:18
  S16: are not offended with me. And I will tell you
• 48:21
  S16: when you're in this place, it is so nuanced and
• 48:24
  S16: it's not a formula and it's not a one size
• 48:26
  S16: fits all for anybody. But you know, when you lose
• 48:28
  S16: your peace, you're on shaky ground. You know, when you're
• 48:31
  S16: mad at God and he can handle again, you're pounding
• 48:34
  S16: on his chest. You're lamenting, oh God, why did this happen?
• 48:37
  S16: We see that with the psalmist. But when you get attitude,
• 48:40
  S16: you're off ground, you're out of bounds. And so to me,
• 48:43
  S16: holding on the tension is being honest, but you're tender,
• 48:47
  S16: you're teachable, and you still are remembering who God is.
• 48:51
  S16: That is of critical importance as we sort through our losses.
• 48:54
  S4: Susie Larson, our guest right now, you mentioned something earlier
• 48:58
  S4: in our interview about how you realized that you were
• 49:00
  S4: living kind of bracing for impact, almost like your elbows
• 49:04
  S4: were locked out trying to hold on and make sure
• 49:08
  S4: that you were ready for the next for the other
• 49:10
  S4: shoe to drop. How did God deliver you from that?
• 49:14
  S16: You know, I had a friend who addressed me in
• 49:17
  S16: a very loving, compassionate way because I was in a relapse,
• 49:21
  S16: a health relapse with Lyme disease mold, and the trauma
• 49:24
  S16: of the symptoms was so terrifying. I actually needed to
• 49:28
  S16: see a counselor once I got out. It was a
• 49:29
  S16: seven year relapse that was horrific. And I you guys
• 49:33
  S16: were with me in that. I've been on the show
• 49:35
  S16: plenty of times during that time, but I was bracing
• 49:38
  S16: for impact. I didn't realize it till she lovingly said, Suzi,
• 49:40
  S16: you've lost your joy. You've lost your hope. It seems
• 49:44
  S16: like you're constantly waiting for the next shoe to drop.
• 49:46
  S16: And she had so much compassion and not a hint
• 49:48
  S16: of judgment that I took that to the Lord. And
• 49:51
  S16: I initially just thought, well, this is a natural reaction
• 49:54
  S16: to a terrible disease. But because she had such deep
• 49:57
  S16: compassion and she's a woman of God like Lord, is
• 50:00
  S16: there more to what her words than what I'm seeing?
• 50:03
  S16: And he'd show me that I'd lost my joy. I'd
• 50:05
  S16: lost my hope. And because of that, I had been honestly,
• 50:09
  S16: subconsciously accusing God of things, the devil. And I wasn't
• 50:13
  S16: like outright accusing him. But I was, by my lack
• 50:16
  S16: of hope, my lack of trust, and just bracing for
• 50:19
  S16: impact because you can't simultaneously live with the holy expectancy
• 50:23
  S16: while you're bracing for impact. So even your locked elbows
• 50:26
  S16: says something about what you believe about God. So for me,
• 50:29
  S16: I really got healed by looking around and sincerely thanking
• 50:34
  S16: God for my history with God, for the blessings in
• 50:37
  S16: my life that I would miss tomorrow if they were gone.
• 50:40
  S16: And when I entered into sincere gratitude, that's when I
• 50:43
  S16: started to see things as they were and not as
• 50:45
  S16: they seemed. And that's another marker that if you're in
• 50:48
  S16: dark sorrow, you're not grateful. You're all you can think
• 50:51
  S16: about is your loss. And you're entitled to that loss.
• 50:54
  S16: And everybody loses when you let yourself go to that place.
• 50:58
  S6: Susie, you touched on it, but I want to go there.
• 51:01
  S6: I want to go there. And I think it manifests
• 51:03
  S6: itself in two different ways health, wealth, prosperity. For sure.
• 51:06
  S6: I mean, that focus is on, man. This is what
• 51:09
  S6: we got in Jesus. And we start quoting the every
• 51:12
  S6: promise to Israel as if it were us and to us,
• 51:15
  S6: as if it was without pain. And that's one side.
• 51:19
  S6: The other side is this quite Bible believing evangelical meme
• 51:22
  S6: culture that we got right now where it's like, it's,
• 51:25
  S6: it's health, wealth, prosperity. It's just a little more scriptural sometimes.
• 51:30
  S6: Let's just get after that here for a second. That
• 51:32
  S6: is dangerous because it sets you up when there's no
• 51:37
  S6: hope but a meme. Then you're wondering, well, what's going on?
• 51:40
  S6: And then you become that very thing that you don't want. Susie.
• 51:44
  S16: Right? And the thing is, when we're not honest about
• 51:48
  S16: how life can be, when we're living behind enemy lines,
• 51:51
  S16: if you develop a formula and let's say it works,
• 51:53
  S16: your formula might work in your time of favor. You know,
• 51:57
  S16: let's say you did everything that you knew to do
• 51:59
  S16: and your kids are following Jesus. Like I said, in
• 52:03
  S16: times of favor, we default to formulas and we don't
• 52:06
  S16: even realize it. We just start to believe, well, a
• 52:08
  S16: plus b equals C until that apple cart is completely disrupted.
• 52:12
  S16: But if you are in a season where you believe
• 52:15
  S16: a plus b always equals C, you are. When you're
• 52:18
  S16: going to become like job's friends. I just got to
• 52:19
  S16: be honest. You. You know what your problem is? Job.
• 52:22
  S16: You must have you must have missed a step. And
• 52:25
  S16: then you leave this wake of people who are suffering
• 52:27
  S16: without understanding, without compassion. Because secretly you're going. You must
• 52:32
  S16: have missed a step. Now, let's say they did. Let's
• 52:34
  S16: say they brought their trouble on themselves. How did Jesus lead?
• 52:37
  S16: He looked at the crowds and was moved with compassion.
• 52:41
  S16: And you know, in the crowds, there are those who
• 52:43
  S16: endure trials through no fault of their own and others
• 52:46
  S16: who brought it upon themselves. But he was no respecter
• 52:48
  S16: of persons. He was a respecter of faith and humility.
• 52:52
  S16: And so I wonder if there's a way that we
• 52:54
  S16: can normalize the hardship and days are going to get darker,
• 52:59
  S16: the love of most is going to grow cold. But
• 53:01
  S16: we can have hope because not only is our story
• 53:04
  S16: gaining momentum to that glorious day when God reveals who
• 53:08
  S16: his children are, there's so much reward for you if
• 53:10
  S16: you have stayed the course, trusted God when it didn't
• 53:13
  S16: suit you. There's so much reward for you. But what
• 53:16
  S16: I'm in awe of these days, friends, is that we
• 53:18
  S16: get to see some of his goodness in the land
• 53:20
  S16: of the living. You know, if he never did another
• 53:22
  S16: thing for us again, except for what he's storing up
• 53:24
  S16: in heaven, that would be beyond amazing. But he gives
• 53:28
  S16: you new mercies every morning. He gives you answers to
• 53:32
  S16: your prayers. He moves on faith. So right now, while
• 53:36
  S16: the culture is swirling around us and the enemy is
• 53:38
  S16: going after people and stealing from them, left and right
• 53:41
  S16: babies are being born. People are getting new jobs, bodies
• 53:44
  S16: are being healed. God is doing things in our world
• 53:47
  S16: and we have reason for hope.
• 53:49
  S3: Amen.
• 53:50
  S6: Susie Larson, everybody. You want more? Oh, we got it
• 53:55
  S6: for you. 16 million downloads of our podcast.
• 53:57
  S3: Are you kidding.
• 53:58
  S4: Me? Incredible. Text goodness to 800 555 7898 comes from
• 54:04
  S4: the title of one of her books, Waking Up to
• 54:06
  S4: the Goodness of God. Text goodness to 800 555 7898.