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Why Your Best Sales Engineer Is Your Most Underused Marketing Asset · Sales Pipeline Radio

• 0:16
  Matt Heinz: All right, we are back live here on the show floor
• 0:18
  here at Forrester B2B Summit.
• 0:20
  We are on the marketplace floor next to the Big Boot, still next to the Big Boot.
• 0:23
  Gonna continue our series of interviews with B2B go-to-market leaders.
• 0:27
  Very excited to have here Jarod Greene.
• 0:29
  He's the CMO at Vivun.
• 0:31
  Longtime marketing executive, sales enablement expert, and
• 0:36
  pickup basketball aficionado.
• 0:37
  We're gonna cover it all, Jarod.
• 0:38
  Jarod Greene: All right, let's get it,
• 0:39
  Matt Heinz: as long as you're open to it.
• 0:40
  Jarod Greene: I'm open to it all.
• 0:41
  Let's get it, man.
• 0:41
  Matt Heinz: Awesome.
• 0:41
  Jarod Greene: Appreciate you.
• 0:42
  Matt Heinz: Well, before we get into some of the fun personal stuff, I
• 0:45
  wanna just have — for people that don't know you — your background.
• 0:49
  You know, former middle school math teacher.
• 0:52
  You were in an analyst role, Gartner research director for a long time.
• 0:57
  I think both of those bring a level of discipline and patience to a CMO role.
• 1:03
  But just talk about that background.
• 1:05
  And, I mean, we've all got these unique, almost non-planned journeys.
• 1:08
  There's sort of a little bit of plan, a little bit of serendipity.
• 1:11
  And for someone that went from middle school to research to CMO,
• 1:15
  what's that unique path taught you?
• 1:18
  Jarod Greene: The path taught me that the one common denominator
• 1:20
  across all three roles is: how do you take something that is complex
• 1:24
  to the audience and make it simple?
• 1:26
  So I got seventh graders — how do you teach algebra?
• 1:29
  How do you teach math?
• 1:30
  It's complex to them.
• 1:32
  Find the analogy, find the hook, find the connection.
• 1:35
  Same for Gartner.
• 1:35
  There's a world in 2004, and for the time I was there, from
• 1:39
  2004 to '14, SaaS was the rage.
• 1:42
  BI was the rage, social, mobile, the whole bit.
• 1:44
  How do you take these complex topics and explain them to an
• 1:47
  audience in ways that make sense?
• 1:48
  And as a CMO, it's the same role — you just do it at scale.
• 1:53
  You have a complex technology, you're in a complex market.
• 1:55
  How do you make it make sense?
• 1:57
  So that's been the common theme.
• 1:59
  I've tried to keep those principles of simplicity, get to the point, make it
• 2:02
  make sense, at the foundation of what we do, and have had marginal success so far.
• 2:08
  So I appreciate it, and I'll keep going for as long as I can.
• 2:11
  Matt Heinz: I mean, you've had great success, right?
• 2:12
  I mean, leading product marketing at Apptio, a similar role, customer marketing
• 2:16
  at Highspot, and currently doing this.
• 2:19
  And I think even the journey you've had at Vivun — between Vivun and Ava — and
• 2:23
  just over the last couple years, really navigating what has been exciting but
• 2:27
  choppy water, you know, as a leader, as an executive at a company going
• 2:33
  through that and sort of coming out on the other side, it's exciting to see
• 2:36
  kind of the results you're seeing now.
• 2:37
  Kind of what are your lessons for others that are sort of maybe in the
• 2:40
  middle of that kind of a process?
• 2:42
  Jarod Greene: Stay the course.
• 2:42
  I mean, I think it's kind of like a puzzle with a lot of these changes.
• 2:45
  You open it.
• 2:46
  You know what it should look like at the end, but you dump those pieces on the
• 2:50
  table, and you know it's gonna be a slog.
• 2:52
  It's gonna be hard.
• 2:52
  Some of these puzzles are harder than others.
• 2:54
  Build the corners, build the foundation, and then start to build
• 2:57
  something beautiful in the middle.
• 2:58
  Won't always be easy, won't always be without challenges,
• 3:01
  but it will be worth it.
• 3:02
  And I would say the only constant is change.
• 3:05
  In all those roles you mentioned, especially with the pivot and change
• 3:09
  we made now — leverage the team you have, trust the advisors you work with,
• 3:15
  but more importantly, trust yourself.
• 3:16
  You've been put in the role to do the thing that you're uniquely
• 3:20
  qualified to do, so don't doubt yourself through the process.
• 3:22
  I know it sounds cheesy and corny, but I think it's real.
• 3:25
  I think sometimes it's easy to get down on yourself, and it's easy
• 3:28
  to fall into this pit of despair.
• 3:30
  Keep going.
• 3:31
  You're uniquely qualified and been put in this position to
• 3:35
  do the great work, so do it.
• 3:37
  Matt Heinz: So I wanna talk about sales enablement, and what has really kind of
• 3:41
  become almost — if we had to rename it, we might call it buyer enablement now, right?
• 3:44
  So there's a whole topic around that, and it's one thing to talk about what
• 3:47
  we think the market is doing and another thing to show what the market is doing.
• 3:51
  I mean, your SDR team has grown pipeline 40% quarter over quarter
• 3:55
  with a materially smaller staff.
• 3:57
  And that — I mean, that's AI signal intelligence.
• 3:59
  That's sort of drinking your own champagne.
• 4:01
  What's been key to making that successful, and what lessons would you impart
• 4:04
  to others that want similar results?
• 4:07
  Jarod Greene: I think the key for us is — you mentioned buyer enablement.
• 4:09
  I got in trouble, Matt, at a conference last week — or last month — where I
• 4:14
  made an assumption that said, if we were doing SiriusDecisions a decade ago at
• 4:17
  this very conference, the stat would go up and say, "Buyer's 70% through the
• 4:21
  journey before the first phone call." Everybody knows that famous stat.
• 4:24
  And I took a leap, and I said, "Look, I probably think that's
• 4:26
  like 90, 95 right now." I think the buyer is probably further
• 4:30
  along the journey than you believe.
• 4:31
  I think AI-powered search has changed the way, and I think our friends at AI Ops put
• 4:37
  a survey and a study together that said close to 50% of people have changed the
• 4:43
  way that they start to search for tools.
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  Used to be the three Gs — Gartner, Google, G2.
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  I used to hit those three, and then I'd find and narrow
• 4:50
  the scope of the tools I want.
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  I'd read some reviews, I'd figure it out, I'd go on those sites,
• 4:54
  I'd put in some demo requests, and now I'm off to the races.
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  I think with AI now — particularly the Claudes, the Geminis, the OpenAIs and
• 5:02
  GPTs — you and I could get 95% down the path of: what are the tools I want?
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  What are the requirements?
• 5:09
  What's the price point I should look at?
• 5:11
  What are the daggers I should look for?
• 5:15
  And then take it one step further: what's my business case to my CFO look like?
• 5:19
  What's the stakeholder map that I need to build internally?
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  And if I can get 95% of the way there, the first contact with the vendor is
• 5:26
  everything I couldn't do on my own.
• 5:28
  So your BDR, or your AE, or your SC better be ready to handle that 5% of
• 5:35
  what they don't know in a way that's flawless, otherwise they're moving on.
• 5:39
  There's just a few moments that make or break the call and the process, and
• 5:45
  I think in shrinking that window, we wanna make sure we meet the moment.
• 5:48
  We wanna make sure our customers can meet the moment.
• 5:50
  But I think that's the key — recognizing that the buyer's
• 5:53
  never been this armed before.
• 5:55
  Sometimes they're armed with incorrect context, but
• 5:58
  they are armed, and they are confident, and they are ready to work.
• 6:01
  And if you can't meet them where they are, they will work with your
• 6:05
  competitor in a different way.
• 6:07
  Matt Heinz: Talking today on the show floor — Forrester B2B
• 6:10
  Summit floor — with Jarod Greene.
• 6:11
  He's the CMO at Vivun.
• 6:13
  And so many different directions we can take this.
• 6:16
  I wanna talk about something — you talked about Vivun Next last year.
• 6:20
  And, you know, you've been big in your career and in your content
• 6:23
  around community-driven marketing and serving communities, and there's an
• 6:27
  underserved community that I really hadn't even thought about, and this is
• 6:30
  probably why: not the sales engineers.
• 6:33
  Right?
• 6:33
  Sales engineers that are out there grinding it out, that
• 6:36
  often don't have a big team of similar SEs in their organization.
• 6:42
  But you can connect them together.
• 6:44
  That becomes powerful for them, and it becomes powerful for you as a facilitator.
• 6:47
  Talk about that specific use case and what that has taught
• 6:50
  you about community marketing.
• 6:51
  Jarod Greene: So, let's take a look — we look around the show floor,
• 6:53
  and you know the unsung heroes: every single one of these booths has
• 6:56
  a great sales engineer, and they're the ones who are doing the demo.
• 7:00
  They might not be the person that brings the person to the booth, but as
• 7:02
  soon as technical questions come, the person who got them there says, "Oh,
• 7:05
  talk to Paul here." And, you know, Paul's running on fumes right now.
• 7:09
  He's tired, and his feet hurt, but he's here — making it work on maybe, it's not
• 7:14
  a Forrester knock, but maybe subpar Wi-Fi, maybe a bad connection, maybe the product.
• 7:17
  But he or she is working very hard.
• 7:20
  And I would attribute a lot of my success in product marketing to having
• 7:23
  a great sales engineer partner in crime.
• 7:25
  The key to Apptio, and Highspot, and Cherwell was finding the
• 7:30
  SE who understands the product but also understands sales.
• 7:34
  That person is dangerous.
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  That person can teach you things and show you things that the product team
• 7:40
  won't show you, and the things that the sales team won't show you, and
• 7:42
  the things that really happen in the product when it's in front of the
• 7:45
  right stakeholder — and that's gold.
• 7:47
  And when we talk about underserved communities — what drew me to Vivun
• 7:50
  was the fact that this was a community I think that was just waiting to have
• 7:54
  not just a platform, but a place.
• 7:57
  How do I find other people like me, who have my goals, who have my
• 8:00
  aspirations, who fell into sales engineering through serendipity?
• 8:04
  No one went to school for product marketing.
• 8:06
  No one went to school for sales engineering.
• 8:08
  These — they used to be an engineer, a product or sales leader.
• 8:10
  And so when you think about the ability to connect them, great things happen.
• 8:15
  You notice, Matt, they're also great — they're kind of tinkerers.
• 8:19
  And tinkerers on the go-to-market side can be dangerous, because
• 8:22
  they can build a lot of the things that they need to get the job done.
• 8:25
  And in building those things, they're exposing a lot of insights, a lot
• 8:28
  of opportunities for your product, for your marketing team, for your
• 8:32
  sales team, for your post-sales team.
• 8:34
  So, I just believe in the power of community, and that when you get smart
• 8:37
  people together to talk about things in a way that doesn't involve a sales
• 8:41
  pitch, or a product, or trying to jam something down someone's throat, some
• 8:45
  amazing insights come out of the room.
• 8:47
  And the more you can put those communities and platforms together, the more informed
• 8:51
  and smart everybody leaves from it.
• 8:54
  Matt Heinz: It seems like every category right now is evolving
• 8:57
  rapidly — the market is evolving, the landscape of competitors is evolving.
• 9:01
  I think AI for technical selling is not immune to that.
• 9:05
  How do you build a brand?
• 9:07
  How do you build a marketecture, or go-to-market strategy, that stays
• 9:10
  durable even as the underlying technology is moving so quickly?
• 9:14
  Jarod Greene: Yeah, I think the goal — or the focus should be — just don't chase the
• 9:19
  shiny objects that just may feel alluring.
• 9:24
  Building on this foundation of sand and rock is important.
• 9:27
  What's the core competency of what you do?
• 9:29
  How do you do that thing really, really, really freaking well?
• 9:32
  And then how do you earn the right to go do other things?
• 9:34
  I think a lot of companies fall into a trap of, "If I have my persona,
• 9:39
  and my persona has this wish list, I gotta go build against that wish
• 9:43
  list." And to your point, not only is the tool landscape evolving, but
• 9:47
  the tools that allow you to build, and to code, and to create products,
• 9:50
  and to create prototypes is evolving.
• 9:52
  So that notion of vibe coding something on the weekend has never been more prevalent.
• 9:57
  I don't know what your LinkedIn looks like, but I mean, how many times do you
• 10:00
  see, "So I did this over the weekend," and you respond with, "Happy to, if
• 10:04
  you want this." I feel like in a world of everything can do anything, be
• 10:11
  really, really good at first things.
• 10:13
  Be really good at the core of what you do, and then earn the right to go
• 10:18
  do other things, because that anchor will get you through a lot of things.
• 10:21
  And there's a lot of tools — I think we can come up with examples — but
• 10:23
  if I do one thing world-class, I've earned the right to do more, as
• 10:26
  opposed to doing a bunch of second, third, and even fourth things subpar.
• 10:33
  Matt Heinz: I've always struggled with — I'm gonna pivot for a second — I've always
• 10:36
  struggled with the concept of balance.
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  Like, work-life balance is hard for me to sort of define, especially
• 10:40
  as a founder and entrepreneur.
• 10:42
  And I think sometimes less about balance and more about anchors.
• 10:46
  You're an avid PlayStation player.
• 10:49
  Jarod Greene: Yeah.
• 10:49
  Matt Heinz: You're committed to your — what — date nights with your bride.
• 10:52
  Jarod Greene: I try to be.
• 10:54
  Matt Heinz: You know, you and your family attend church, sounds like regularly, and
• 10:57
  sort of talk about the importance of — so, anchors in your life that help you stay
• 11:04
  — I don't know if balance is the right word, but just stay present and stay real.
• 11:08
  Jarod Greene: Balance is the right word.
• 11:09
  I'm a Libra — scales is the sign.
• 11:13
  I sought work-life balance for a long time, and then a mentor and
• 11:16
  a friend pulled me aside and said, "Look, there really is no such
• 11:19
  thing." You do have to recognize, in the world, though, for most of your
• 11:23
  kids — you only have a couple summers.
• 11:26
  Right?
• 11:27
  You got a couple summers as a toddler, a couple summers as a
• 11:31
  teenager, and then they're gone.
• 11:33
  And within that window, we're working our butts off to provide for them and make
• 11:37
  sure that they're well off and giving them all the things we didn't have.
• 11:40
  But you gotta be present.
• 11:41
  And I think one of the things he taught me was, like, "Look, they're
• 11:44
  not gonna remember that presentation you crushed at the Forrester Summit.
• 11:49
  They're not gonna remember that white paper you wrote at Gartner.
• 11:51
  They're not gonna remember that launch you did.
• 11:53
  They will remember you not being at the game when they hit their first home run.
• 11:57
  They will remember you not being at the dance recital.
• 11:59
  They will remember having to go to that party without you." When you recognize
• 12:03
  that, in a world where you can work all the time — we are hyper-connected
• 12:09
  — those moments ain't coming back.
• 12:11
  Matt Heinz: No.
• 12:11
  Jarod Greene: And so once you realize that, you can say, "Look, here's how I'm
• 12:13
  present when I need to be. Here's what I lock in." And I think the importance of
• 12:18
  not only building a team that can kinda hold you down when you're not there, but
• 12:22
  empowering them to miss those moments too.
• 12:25
  I don't know if you follow this, but there's a head coach in the NFL,
• 12:27
  Bruce Arians — he would say he'd fire a coach if they missed something for
• 12:32
  the team, or if they missed something for their family for the team, right?
• 12:35
  It was really important that those guys on his staff felt like they could miss those
• 12:39
  moments, and it's part of why I'm here at Vivun, as a completely remote company with
• 12:43
  flexibility to do what I need to do and unlimited PTO — because I'm a type A, I'm
• 12:48
  a competitor, I wanna get the job done.
• 12:50
  I'm locked in when I'm locked in, but it's really important to remember your why.
• 12:54
  It is for your family.
• 12:55
  You shouldn't live
• 13:01
  to work — you should work to live.
• 13:04
  And it's gonna be very important — you keep those anchors in a world where,
• 13:07
  again, you only have but a few summers, and nothing's promised.
• 13:11
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 13:12
  I'm leaving early today — I'm gonna miss the concert with The Fray in the evening
• 13:15
  'cause my daughter turns 17 tomorrow.
• 13:17
  Jarod Greene: Mm.
• 13:18
  Matt Heinz: And that is a non-negotiable.
• 13:20
  I'm gonna be home — not just during the day, but in the morning — so we can
• 13:23
  celebrate for her, 'cause, you know, she's a junior, and she's gonna be gone soon.
• 13:28
  And every moment matters.
• 13:30
  And I'll tell you, an earlier version of Matt would've been too anxious
• 13:36
  and not confident enough to do that.
• 13:38
  And my anxiety would've said, "You gotta stay here, you gotta network, you gotta
• 13:41
  do your thing." And if I'm doing this for my family, the best thing I could
• 13:44
  do is go back and be with my family.
• 13:47
  So — that's something that… sometimes someone'll say, "Don't you wish you could
• 13:51
  go back and tell your earlier self all these things?" But he wouldn't listen.
• 13:56
  Jarod Greene: That's right.
• 13:56
  Matt Heinz: He definitely — he 100% would not be listening.
• 13:58
  Jarod Greene: Yeah.
• 13:58
  I wouldn't listen to me either, but I needed a mentor.
• 14:01
  I needed someone who had been in my shoes and said, "Hey, I see where you're going,
• 14:06
  and I see the path you're headed down.
• 14:08
  It's going to lead to burnout.
• 14:10
  It's going to lead to frustration.
• 14:11
  It's going to lead to angst.
• 14:13
  It's gonna lead to tension in your house.
• 14:15
  I don't want that for you."
• 14:16
  Matt Heinz: Right.
• 14:17
  Jarod Greene: "So here's what I need you to do." And I'm forever grateful for that,
• 14:20
  and I'm telling anybody who's in that mode right now: you can grind season all day.
• 14:24
  You could work, but the people in your life that need you to be
• 14:28
  present will see that, and it's hard for them to un-remember.
• 14:34
  It gets sad, right?
• 14:35
  It's hard for them to un-remember the birthdays and the moments
• 14:39
  and the touchpoints you miss.
• 14:40
  So good on you for heading back to the PNW to be with your daughter.
• 14:43
  Matt Heinz: Yeah, and it's a work in progress, right?
• 14:46
  You know, because even as you do that, you're like, "Boy, I'm gonna miss out
• 14:48
  on those business opportunities." But, you know, sometimes I'm — I was telling
• 14:51
  someone earlier, I'm in the middle of this book called Be Where Your Feet Are.
• 14:54
  Jarod Greene: Mm-hmm.
• 14:54
  Matt Heinz: Right?
• 14:55
  Like, if I'm here, I got these things lined up, we're getting this done.
• 14:58
  I am here, but when I go home tomorrow, it is birthday time.
• 15:00
  Jarod Greene: Yeah.
• 15:01
  You are locked in in that moment.
• 15:02
  Matt Heinz: And, you know, as the day ends, there's things I didn't
• 15:06
  get done, but there's a day with my daughter that will last forever.
• 15:10
  Jarod Greene: Amen.
• 15:11
  Matt Heinz: And it's important.
• 15:12
  Jarod Greene: Yep.
• 15:12
  Absolutely.
• 15:13
  Well said, man.
• 15:14
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 15:14
  Jarod Greene, CMO at Vivun — loved being able to have a wide-ranging conversation.
• 15:20
  Thanks for being here, man.
• 15:20
  Jarod Greene: Thanks for having me.
• 15:21
  I appreciate you.