Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / Interview Only w/ Johnny Olszewski - Taking The Pardon Power Away From The President

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Interview Only w/ Johnny Olszewski - Taking The Pardon Power Away From The President · The Chuck ToddCast

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  Speaker 1: I'm constantly working on this for years myself, and here's
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  Speaker 1: an opportunity for you to take matters into your own
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  Speaker 1: hands as well. So a few months, a few weeks back,
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time talking to you guys
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: here in these and in fact I did a subsetecon
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: about this that I said, you know, at the age
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: of a warm is coming, and the question was just
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: sort of when it would begin, And I used the
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: bipartisan endorsement. The first Republican to endorse my next guest bill,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: a constitutional amendment that he is proposing. It's a Democratic
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Congressman Johnny Oldchesky from Baltimore, and it was Don Bacon
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: became the first Republican to sign on. And it's essentially
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: a pardon nullification constitutional amendment. It uses in some ways
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: the same structure of a congressional override of a presidential veto.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: It's very similar in its structure. But it was I
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: saw it as an opportunity because this was done in
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: such a way that it didn't feel specifically targeted to
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  Speaker 1: one president. We know we've had abuses of the pardon power,
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  Speaker 1: but by both this one and the previous one, and
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  Speaker 1: you could argue multiple presidents going forward, going backward. And
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: there's some argue the that the pardon clause in our
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: constitution is the biggest you might say, loophole there is
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  Speaker 1: between a small D democracy and a small A authoritarian
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: UH regime. And so with that, I thought it would
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: be nice to hear from the author of this amendment himself,
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Congressman Johnny Oh. He says, we can call him Johnny Oh.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: We'll find out if I'm going to have to start
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: having a you know, use the code. My my friend
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: Tony Kornheiser, Congressman, loves Johnny O Polo shirts and they
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: advertise on his So maybe at this point people will
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: think it's you advertising.
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  Speaker 2: It's the number one gift I get when I talk
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  Speaker 2: to Chambers of congresces, et cetera.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the has You know they have that third
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: button right that that's what what's what guys like. It's
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: like that it's a three button polo rather than sometimes
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: the two button polo. So there is something about you know,
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  Speaker 1: it is.
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  Speaker 2: A nice print, a nice constitutional amendment.
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  Speaker 1: Here. There you go. It's a mighty fine constitution you have.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: There be ashamed, mighty find republican. There be shame if
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: we lose it. All right, Look, I want to bring
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: you on on this, but look we'll talk. I want
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: to talk a lot about sort of how to make
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: congressman Congress functional again. But this is an important step
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: because constitutional You know, I am one of the reasons
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: I'm long term optimistic, even if I'm short term pessimistic
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: about the direction of our republic is that when we've
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: had moments like this before we've used the tools in
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: our toolbox. We haven't done it very often. We need
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: to use them more, but we don't. We're in and
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: around the Civil War, we did in and around Teddy
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: Roosevelt throughout the r we did, and I think we're
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: in one of those periods again. And you update your constitutions,
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: and the same reason why you put a new roof
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: on your house, you know it. Sometimes you know you realize, oh,
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: it's kind of an old structure that's going to have leaks.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: We kind of need to put new technology in here.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: And so the updating of the constitution I think is necessary.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: But I'm curious where are we Do you have more
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: than Don Bacon on board the parton amendment? And since
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: I've been on here, am I missing a piece of
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: the amendment that you think is important for my listeners
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: and viewers to know. I think you pretty much hit it.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: We have a part of it where the petitioning for
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: review is a pretty narrow approach. Twenty members of the House,
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: five members of the Senate can petition for that vote,
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: and so part of it is just by having the
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: ability to review it, our hope is that presidents will
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: think twice before issuing these egregious pardons. But yeah, it
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  Speaker 2: is very much modeled after a veto override, which I
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  Speaker 2: thought it was a modest but important step forward to
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  Speaker 2: say some of these pardons that really are beyond the pale,
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  Speaker 2: especially under this president, are in need of that kind
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  Speaker 2: of reform. And so I appreciate Don stepping on and
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  Speaker 2: really stepping into this in a moment where we're so polarized.
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  Speaker 2: But that's why we structured that way. And I think
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  Speaker 2: that as a new member of Congress, having someone who's
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: a veteran who really I think understands the institution and
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: why this is important. We are now actually this week,
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: we're going to be opening up for co sponsors, and
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: so we're hoping to see Democrats and Republicans alike join.
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  Speaker 2: I know it's going to be harder because I think
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  Speaker 2: people view it as going after President Trump, and in
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  Speaker 2: some ways like his have been especially worse in my opinion,
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  Speaker 2: But as you as you point out, I think the.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: Preemptive partons were terrible. I mean, there's really no defending
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: the preemptive partons and what he did. And and I
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: might have empathy for Tony Fauci on a personal level,
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  Speaker 1: Lis Chainey in a personal level, there's no doubt there
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  Speaker 1: there could be attempts. But what really set me off
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  Speaker 1: about those pardons were they where they get out of
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  Speaker 1: jail free cards for his family members. That felt like,
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  Speaker 1: what are you doing to prevent what you think the
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  Speaker 1: next president is going to do? You just gave him
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  Speaker 1: precedent to do it with his own family m And.
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  Speaker 2: I suspect he will and.
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  Speaker 1: What will he say when he does it, just like
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  Speaker 1: the previous psident.
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  Speaker 2: That's right, absolutely, And I think this is part of
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  Speaker 2: the larger issue. This is one of many places where
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  Speaker 2: I think Americans are so frustrated with all of us
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  Speaker 2: because the wealthy and the well connected and those who
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: are in power or are privileged or getting away with
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  Speaker 2: you know, literally crimes I don't want to say murder,
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  Speaker 2: but like they're getting away with pretty serious crimes. They're
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: lining their pockets, and everybody else is getting crushed. And
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  Speaker 2: so I think it's pastime, especially in this space, to
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  Speaker 2: look at the Constitution and say this is you can
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  Speaker 2: drive a truck through this loophole.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: I like to think that.
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  Speaker 2: Our founders had some better sense, that the better angels
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  Speaker 2: of those who were presidents would not have abused it.
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  Speaker 1: In these ways. But here we are.
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  Speaker 2: And you know, I'm a Democrat who can say that
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  Speaker 2: presidents I didn't Clinton others also abuse this whether it
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  Speaker 2: was Clinton's half brother.
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  Speaker 1: Do you do any research on this as to why,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, what are my favorite I find the pardon
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  Speaker 1: I inclusion in the Constitution one of the biggest head scratchers,
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  Speaker 1: Like if I could go into a time machine, because
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  Speaker 1: here's a group of men and it was obviously we
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  Speaker 1: know it was all men who were so concerned about
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  Speaker 1: a monarchy and about preventing a monarch as the leader
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  Speaker 1: of our country that they wrote this pretty incredible document
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  Speaker 1: that has stood the test of time but created a
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  Speaker 1: loophole right out of a monarchy. And it is one
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  Speaker 1: of those how the heck did this get into the
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  Speaker 1: Constitution in the first place.
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  Speaker 2: It's pretty wild considering all the checks and balances that
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  Speaker 2: are otherwise written into the Constitution. I mean, they were
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  Speaker 2: so deliberate about, to your point, preventing a return of
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: the monarchy, and I think that they would be surprised
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  Speaker 2: by the amount of presidential authority being exhibited today. Generally,
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  Speaker 2: I think that the inclinations of those founding fathers were
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  Speaker 2: actually have as strong legislative branch that could sort of
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  Speaker 2: help dictate and set the pace for our governance. So
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  Speaker 2: I did not go that far back in terms of
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  Speaker 2: my history on the pardon, but I was intrigued to
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  Speaker 2: learn that there actually was a very similar amendment put
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  Speaker 2: forward following the pardon of Richard Nixon, almost exactly the
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: same in terms of a twoth thing that happened.
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  Speaker 1: To It installed, obviously, but like, why did you get no?
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  Speaker 1: But did you get some understanding? Who stalled it? Why
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: did it stall? This was a not a super majority
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: of Democratic majorities, but pretty close in seventy six and
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  Speaker 1: seventy eight.
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  Speaker 2: My sense is that it ended up not being bipartisan,
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  Speaker 2: which is why we were so deliberate starting this out.
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  Speaker 2: I didn't want to drop this, this legislation, this constitutional
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  Speaker 2: amendment until we had a Republican on board, And you know,
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  Speaker 2: having Don agreed to do this was a game changer.
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  Speaker 2: And it's really open doors to my Republican colleagues at
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  Speaker 2: a time where it's really hard for us to have
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: conversations about anything. But I like to think that both
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: he and I approach our work in a way where
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: we may have pretty strong philosophical differences on any number
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: of issues, but that we treat each other in our
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: colleagues with some decency and respect, and that we can
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: approach this issue with the seriousness that it deserves, and
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: we're hopeful that, if not under this Congress, that in
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: a subsequent Congress, we actually do get this done, because
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  Speaker 2: this is more than just I mean, I want to
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: see this done.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: Beyond right, I assume your goal is you'll introduce this,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: assuming the voters of Baltimore send you back, that you
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: will do this every Congress until you get us right.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's one of many reforms that
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: we should be looking at. I mean, the fact that
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: we can't get a decent stockband passed, for example, is
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: sort of beyond beyond me. These are things that are
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: supported by eighty percent of the voters out there, Republicans
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: and Democrats alike. And so I'm I'm a firm believer
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: that one of the things we have to do, whether
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: it's as Democrats or as members of Congress, is have
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: people believe in the institution again. And that's sort of
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: holding ourselves to a higher standard and living that standard
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: a little bit. So this is one place where I
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: had a chance and step and lead.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: And sort of know. It is a modest I mean,
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: I'll just be honest, It is a somewhat modest proposal.
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  Speaker 1: I you know, I don't know if one individual should
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  Speaker 1: have this kind of power. And whether you thought of
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: creating a pardon board, you know, that might be made
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  Speaker 1: up of the two most senior justices, the Attorney General,
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  Speaker 1: maybe the chairs of the Senate Judiciary and House Judiciary.
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  Speaker 1: Whatever you could create, we could just in the same
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: way we have the Gang of Eight for intel briefings
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: that administration. You know, you could put together a pardon
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: board where you would just like anything. I mean, I
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: think plenty of states have taken the power away from
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: the governor, created these boards with the governor having ultimate
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: sort of thumbs up, thumbs down sign off. Essentially they
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: will sign off or they won't sign off. Did you
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: think about adding that or were you fearing that was
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: too complicated that it would sort of sort of take
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: the eye off of the focal of the focal point here,
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: which is just putting a check on his part and power.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: Part of it with simplicity and aligns with the check
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: that already exists in Congress on other bills where there's
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: a conflict between the two branches. And frankly, the other
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: piece is most other boards. I guess it depends on
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: the state, but you sort of get into the questions
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: of does the governor or the president still have the
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: ultimate authority? And if they do for me, it doesn't
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: actually address the problem. And if they don't over the board,
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: then I think it could have been more challenging to
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: get Republicans on board to this idea, especially under this trank.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: I'm just going to be real, under this administration, taking
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: away the decision making of the president is not something
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: that is looked favorly by colleagues in the Republican Party
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: right now.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: So when I think about the history of tough things
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: that need bipartisan support to get through, it's amazing how
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: often they happen in the month of December. Right, Don't Ask,
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: Don't Tell was repealed the month after the twenty ten
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: mid terms. And I remember, if somebody told you Democrats
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: just got shellacked in the twenty ten mid terms, you
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: know what they're successfully going to do next. They're going
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: to repeal Don't as, Don't Tell. And nobody would have
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: seen a company. Now, was it paired up with solidifying
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: the Bush tax cut? Yes, right, there was, certainly, you know,
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: this is this is what what we expect Congress to
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: do right, a little bit here, a little bit there,
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: and that's how that's how compromise happens, and that's how
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: progress happens. This screams December vote to me, meaning you
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: know if you could attach it to a must pass
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: bill that you would see you know, do you have
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: a strategy yet in your head of how you want
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: to get this passed? Or right now? Is it? If
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: you build it, they will come mindset.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: Speaking at this point, it's building the coalition and helping
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: to tell the story about why this is important, why
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: it's needed, why it's not a partisan a proposal. But
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: I will say I actually I love the idea of
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: this being a December gift to the American people. So
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: I think that that's something that as we're you know,
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: as we're having the conversations, people are well, at least
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: say that's.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: A great idea. We have to we have to do
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: something about. Yeah, let me ask this. Have you had
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: anybody say well, that's a terrible idea. And here's why.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: No, if anything, it's I can't sign on that because right,
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: and so I think, to your point, right.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: No, what do you say it's a bad idea? They're
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: just deciding whether they want to put their name.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: On it, because what we've seen is indefensible.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: You can't defend Juan Orlando Hernandez pardon in Honduras. You
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: can't defend the cz crypto con artists who gave millions
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: of dollars to the Trunk cryptocurrency. You can't defend the
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: pardon shopping industry where people are now paying upwards of
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: half a million a million dollars to seek a pardon
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: from people closer.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: It's just it's indefensible.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: And so it's more a question of like, I don't
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: I'm not worried about it passing if it's giving a vote,
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: it's just the function of right. How do we find
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: a legislative vehicle or pathway to make sure this actually.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: Gets I mean, look, the reason I look at December
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: is sort of you're probably an opportune time is if
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: the House is going to change hands and there is
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: going to be some cleanup, they're going to want to
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: get some votes out the door before they lose their majority,
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: and they want to be able to say that that
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: you know, you know, maybe that's when you get the
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: stock band, right. That's where you could picture how those
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: that have survived want to be able to say, hey,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: we we hear you, we heard the message, and this
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: is a way to respond. I mean it's like, look,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: I'm just I will confess. I just want to see
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: I want to see this work. We need to prove
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: that we can use constitutional amendment. I do think there's
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: a lot of people who feel powerless at the moment
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: that they look at the democracy and they think it's
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: rigged and I have no say in this. Yep, the
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: thought that a constitutional that Congress could propose a constitutional amendment,
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: it passes the House and the Senate, and it then
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: heads to the state legislatures. I mean it's you know,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: civics one oh one, right, Like how an amendment becomes
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: comes to be would be a healthy exercise because it's
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: one of those things once we once we teach the
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: country had a fish, I think they'll keep trying to fish.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: Just you know, that'd be nice to actually person in me.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it'd be nice to actually see what I told
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: my kids in ninth grade government class when I was
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: a teacher before I got into politics, that yes, this
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: stuff actually works and this is how things happened. Because
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: that has not been my experience in the past.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: We really haven't passed a meaningful constitutional amendment, arguably since
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: the Kennedy assassination with the twenty fifth Amendment, Right that
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: that was a meaningful Oh we have a what if
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: the president had lived? Right? That was that to me
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: was at least responding to something. Hey, we hadn't dealt
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: with this, and perhaps we ought to deal with this scenario.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: We really haven't had a meaningful one since then and
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: it worked. Well, that's close to sixty years now. I
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: know we've had a few things on pay raise and
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: lowering the age from twenty one eighteen, but to me,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: this wasn't a dealing with something that was structurally broken
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: inside the republic.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: Well, and your point, I think people want to have
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: something to believe in again and to say this is
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: something that transcends our parties and politics and that we
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: can look at our structures and how we function.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: As a nation.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: And I would love to give that hope to I
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: think a very weary, a weary.
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  Speaker 1: And yes, I too, am a customer. You said something
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: else a few moments ago that I'm more skeptical frankly
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: that that is going to be easy to prove, and
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: that is that you can prove to the country that
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Congress can you know, be a independent branch of government again.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: And you know, if Democrats get the House back, you know,
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: some people are going to think they've got a mandate
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: to go impeach Trump, and some are going to say
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: they have a mandate to just simply oppose all things Trump.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: And some will say, no, we have a mandate to
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: make Congress a functional branch again. The problem is, and
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm just speaking reality, your own caucus probably
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: is divided in three like this now, which is you know,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: what what should be the focus, you know, what it
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: takes to create more belief in the independence of the
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: legislative branch, which might not be in the best interests
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: of the hardcore base of the Democratic Party. So how
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: do you navigate that?
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: The same way I think about all this is it's
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: sort of the I approach politics as a Maslow's hierarchy
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: and as a party and as a institution. We should
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: be focusing on addressing people's base needs first, and as
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: we were saying earlier, I feel like we've failed at
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: that miserably. Cost of living was supposed to be the number.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: You know, day one, President Trump that he would address it.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Any number of my colleagues and I ran on lowering
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: the cost of living. And I always say, if people
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: can't put food on the table and provide for a
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: roof over their head, they don't really care about any
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: of the other issues. And so I think that we
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: can hold the president accountable, and if there are impeachable offenses,
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: we can look at pursuing that. But we have to
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: also provide for Americans, whether it's a fair wage, whether
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: it's addressing the healthcare crisis that is. You know, I
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: think the average maryland is paying four thousand dollars more
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: a year if they're still in the Affordable Care Act.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: But we have to also, I guess what I'm trying
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: to is like prove that we can govern with integrity.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: And so whether it's the millions of files that still
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: haven't been released on Epstein, whether it's the insider stock trading,
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: the constitutional it's all these things that make people feel
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: like from a policy perspective, they see people getting rich
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: off of these debts on war in Iran. They see
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: members of Congress trading stock and becoming millionaires while we're serving.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: And then we're cutting food benefits, we're making healthcare more expensive,
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: we're not addressing the housing costs that people are experiencing.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: And so I think just delivering, delivering on those basic needs,
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: doing so in a way that has some level of
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: ethics and integrity, I think provides the space that if
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: you were operating in good faith, you can then and
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: also do this impeachment or whatever else needs to happen.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: As Democrats, Look, what you say seems pretty rational and normal,
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: and yet that isn't what ends up being what people
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: hear and they see coming out of Congress, right, I mean,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: it gets partisan quickly, and it's going to be even
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: harder if you guys take control immediately there's going to
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: be a presidential campaign starting, and that is always even
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: harder on, you know, especially if you were the majority
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: in the House and you've got a bunch of people
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: running around Iowa, South Carolina with Democrats next there in
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: the name going Washington's terrible and dysfunctional. Congress doesn't know
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: what it's doing. You know, it will like create this
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: weird negative feedback loop that I think is going to
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: be quite hard to navigate, you know. And oh, by
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: the way, you're still dealing with potentially a runaway executive branch.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, right now, it is Shrewe are dysfunctional. This
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: is one of the least productive congresses I think in
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: the history of Congress. What I tell people is that
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: at the end of the day, Congress is an institution
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: that is made up of people. And maybe this is
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: me being a little pollyannish as a new member and
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: someone who hasn't been jaded by decades of service, But
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: at the end of the day, I don't think any
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: one person is beyond redemption. And so if you have
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: an institution full of people, you have to believe that
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: the institution isn't beyond redemption, it can also change, and
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: so I come at it as someone who, like my predecessor,
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: Doug Ruebersberger, was a local executive before coming here, and
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: I had a split counsel. We had four Democrats, we
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: had three Republicans. We passed gun safety legislation, we passed
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: police reform, we passed balanced budgets. We both cut cut
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: spending and found new ways to raise revenue. I mean,
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: it was just there's a way to do it.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: Well. It's funny, though, you're actually in the minority in
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: the House, aren't you of executives serving in the legislative branch? Right,
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: there's a few more executives in the Senate, right, a
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: few more former governors.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: And I think we'd be stronger if there were more
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: of us, can't.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: Right, I mean, I'm trying to think. You know, you've
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: got uh uh, you've got Carlos Simnez, who's the former
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: mayor of Miami Dade County. You've you've got your county
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: exact Mecardo greg Stanton, that's right, Stanton, Mary mayor of Phoenix.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: It is. You know, it's funny. Anybody who spent time
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: as a mayor right knows you can't be an ideologue,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: you know. And to me, I know, county exact county
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: judge in some states, you know, but it's essentially we
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: call it our county mayor is a mayor in Florida.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: Here it's a county executive. I know Texas it's a judge, right,
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: which gets really confusing, but I mean it is. You know,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: it's easy to be a partisan when all you have
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: to do is legislate, isn't it.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, governing is hard and if you want to find
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: I think the other challenge is is too is these
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: chambers constantly are shifting back and forth, and we can
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: we can like we can play this game where it's
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: constantly we win and then we just sort of like
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: bash away everything the last group did and then we
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: build something and they take it.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: Well, look at HR I think about this, and I
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: don't think you were there for HR one, but you
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: had Democrats who had there like Christmas Tree wish lists
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: when it came to what they how they would like
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: to see our voting rules. Well, guess what. The Republicans
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: came in and they have their wish list of and
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: neither one is reality based, right, They're both some things
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: seem reasonable, and some things seem a bit aspirational right
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: on eich side. And whenever I hear somebody say well,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: it's all of it or nothing that, I'm like, oh,
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: you're not interested in passing any legislation then, right. I mean,
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: if Republicans were serious about voter ID, then they'd only
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: make it about voter ID, and I promise you they'd
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: probably get it past. Yes, I think there's forty percent
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: of the Democratic caucus. I would probably vote for vote ID,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: and once I got that, I it might be all
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: of everybody. You know, we built somehow of that stuff works, yep.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: And if Democrats have just simply wanted to guarantee a
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: minimum standard for early access to voting, and that's all
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: they wanted, they would have gotten bipartisan support for that. Right,
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: you know, the inability somehow to you know, go find
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: the slice of bread that everybody wants and let's let's
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: share it.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Well, those are those solutions that are sustainable, right because
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: you forced that compromise and that consensus, and they don't
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: ask forever. Necessarily, sometimes you'll have a big package that
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: will undo it. But I think by and large the
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: decisions are better and they're more sustainable when you take
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: that approach. There's another suit as opposed to President Trump
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: voting today by mail in Florida.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Rules for thee not for me. But here's another challenge
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: I think you guys are going to have if you
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: get control the House. Is I take it at that
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: as a minority, you don't feel like the majority has
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: treated you very well? Do you feel that way?
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: Very fair assessment, right, with the exception of especially my
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: Small Business Committee Roger Williams.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's the baseball.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: Connection because he's the coach of the Republican team and
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: I play for the Democrats, but we've passed like three
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: bipartisan bills out of that committee.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: Everybody loves small business. It's a reminder, right, there's certain
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: there are certain committees that can get stuff done. Agg
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: has usually been one that also can get stuff done
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: on a bipart.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: But you generally know we have not been treated very
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: well by by the majority here.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: Because I say that, because it then becomes really hard
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: to then say, oh, no, we're unlike how you treated us.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: We're going to treat you better. Because the golden rule.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: Everybody lives by the golden rule in politics and and
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: but they always live at it, live on it more
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: defensively than offensively. I mean, well you did this to me,
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: so I'm going to do it to you. Right everything is.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: It's more biblical Old Testament, Biblical justice. Right eye for
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: an eye. That's not going to solve the longer term
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: problem of Congress's dysfunctional dysfunctionality. And yet you and I
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: both know leadership will get a lot of grief if
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: you know, from the base and maybe from donors if
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: if they don't punish the other side. Here's how it
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: gets described. Let me get it. You're trying. This is
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: not a simple question to answer, and maybe this is
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: a better way to deal with this debate. There are
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: some that argue that, hey, when Democrats have power, they
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: ought to use their power. Look at how those guys
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: use They have power because of a three vote majority,
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: but they behave like they have a sixty vote majority.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: We should behave the same way. Do you feel that
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: I think that's why they're losing so bad.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: It's because of they're both but acting like a sixty
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: but they're not incorporating what I think are oftentimes good
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: democratic ideas which might win support on some legislation, and
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: they're allowing themselves to go so extreme, particularly with this
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: president's or of dictating the terms of what they're pursuing,
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: and they're not sort of showing any of that independence.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: So I actually I'm going to be controlling here. I
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: think if Democrats and we shouldn't compromise our values, I
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: think we can compromise about compromising what our core values
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: are as Democrats. But if we're willing to at least
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: on a good number of items in good faith, say, okay, Republicans,
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: if you have an idea that is worth listening to,
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: for example, and it can win win your support to
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: help you know, move this piece of legislation forward, we'll
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: hear you out. I mean, my frustration going to rules
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: any number of times has basically been if if Virginia
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: Fox the chair, who's actually a very nice person. We
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: don't agree on anything, but we've gotten to know each other,
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: but she's the only one there there's even a conversation.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: It's sort of any ideas the Speaker's committee for a reason, and.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: It operates that way. But again, like things don't you've
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: you've covered this and been around this a lot more.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: I just I just really think that there is there
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: is a crop of new members, especially in the Democratic side,
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: but also some Republicans I think, who see a different
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: way forward. And so I think depending on who comes
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: in and replaces the members who are departing, there might
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: be I think some space for maybe not a one
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: to eighty degree turn right, but but just maybe like
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: a thirty degree turn towards.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: Well, all right, let me make I I appreciate your
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: optimism on that, but let's be realistic. The Republicans that
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: are likely to lose are the ones that are like
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: your co sponsor and the pardon bill Don Bacon, right,
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: these are the ones you know, it is it is
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: the It is those that are not hardcore MEGA that
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: are more likely to lose. And that so you may
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: have fewer Republicans in the House next year, but by
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: percentage in devotion to MEGA, you may have a greater
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: majority of MEGA adherents and so and that, Look, this
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: is due to this redistricting fiasco, which which you know,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: I don't see why more redistricting in blue states makes
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: this better.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: You couple partisan redistricting with partisan elections. That's what you're
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: going to get, right, Like, and so that's that's I
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: think a much harder reform is. I think that people
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: will defend those systems more than say the pardon situation
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: that we open with. But yeah, like and I think
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: you actually may see more progressive Democrats coming in in
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: addition to the crop right who are.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: Not going to be interested. I mean, look, I've talked
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: to plenty of progressive who says I want my own
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump. That you know, it's sort of if we're
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: going to live, if if if the world is ends
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: justifies the means, all right, then let's go get our
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: version of Donald Trump. Look, I obviously don't think that
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: that's the idea. But when you live in a reactionary
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: political environment, which is the one I think we're living
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: in in the moment, it's almost inevitable we're going to
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: see a version of this.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: It's a good chance that we're going to see that. Right,
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: I think that there's a But the most important thing
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: is someone who can win.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: And so I don't know that.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: Elections are unique to the candidate, the circumstance, timing, and
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: so you're going to certainly I think see candidates in
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: that vein. Yeah, the obviously I think it might do
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: better in the respective primaries. But I think also, at
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: least for Democrats, I think we are coming to a
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: reckoning where it's like, if we don't win, none of
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: it matters.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: Right, So, and I hear you know, look, you and
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: I I'm guessing, even if it's Baltimore, you've seen the
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: redistricting ads that Obama's the spokesperson for quite a bit.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: I'm sure, right, if you've watched the NCAA tournament, I
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: feel like I've seen it. You know, I'm seeing Barack
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: Obama as much as I'm seeing Rick Patino on my
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: screen at the moment. And it is hard. You know,
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: you sit there and you're like, okay, hey, in order
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: to create fairness with Texas, we're going to have to
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: be unfair in Virginia.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: And look, Maryland has contemplated this, and you've got some
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: Democrats in the state legislature, like, you know what, they're
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: worried about the long term consequences. I'm empathetic to the
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: fight fire with fire mindset, I get it right. And
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: if you do believe right, there are some you know,
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: Gavenusen says it out loud, and maybe I'll you know,
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: he believes if Democrats don't win the House this year,
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: there won't be a fair twenty twenty eight election. Now
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: I don't happen to believe that, but I respect people
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: that believe that, Like you know, I might be wrong
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: and they may be right. Where are you on that
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: level of concern.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: I'm deeply concerned about the efforts with like the Save Act,
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: for example. I do think that the Senate's going to probably,
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: if not narrow, stay the same, and so I think
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: it's going to be hard, at least as as envisioned
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: to pass what they're trying to get through. I am
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: actually concerned about, having lived through it and having seen it,
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: I'm actually concerned about the certification. So I am concerned
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: and obviously working to help elect a Democratic majority in
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty six, but knowing that the House and Senate
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: have to certify the elections in twenty twenty eight, I
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: think having at least one of those chambers be a
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: Democratic majority is actually the thing that I'm more interested in,
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: so that we have hopefully a fair free count and
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: we don't have any shenanigans around contesting the election results.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: And are you confident that this House, you know, the
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: House Republicans. I've had, you know, some the House Republicans
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: will still have the majority in December when elections get certified.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: And people don't really fully realize this, but Congress can decide,
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: ultimately decide whether a House race is yeah, yeah, it's
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: actually not something that's done by the state. What's your
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: level of concern that Speaker is going to get involved
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: after the election.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: As we sit here today, I don't think the Speaker
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: is spotting to do that. I think that having led
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: a local election agency and partnered with election like they
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: do incredible work at the state and local levels to
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: run these elections, and overturning and challenging an election is
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: a pretty big step.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: And look, last time Congress did it, one could argue
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: it's what created New Kingridge. You can go back in history.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: It's called the it's an incident. It's referred to as
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: the Bloody Eighth. It was an Indiana eighth Congressional district
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: in eighty six. Within a year later, Democrats overturned the
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: recount the House Administration Committee and at the UH and
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: set the candidate that had lost the recount, and it
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: was arguably I've had people say you know when did
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: this polarization begin. And some will argue that that was
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: the moment that gave life to New Gingridge and when
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: you give he was the backbencher ready to throw bombs
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: at the time, Well, I look, I My level of
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: concern on that is only if it's a really tight margin,
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: right if we if we're looking at if we're looking
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: at three seats again, but this time it's three seats
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: on your side instead of the other side, then yeah,
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: I think every I think everything's a knife fight. If
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: it's a twenty seat gap, I don't see it.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: Well, the seat gap and the margins of the elections themselves.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: I think if it's if it's a three seat gap
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: but Democrats are Republicans have blown you know, we're one
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: fifteen points in those elections, it's harder, I think to justify.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm learning a lot as a as a
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: new member here about sort of the ways in which
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: we govern ourselves.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: And thens do you miss Do you miss being in
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: local government?
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: There are parts of this job that I enjoy and
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: I choose to focus on them. I definitely miss getting
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: things done. I mean that was that was the thing.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: Every day.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: It was like we and this is why I like
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: I'm in politics. Every day was a chance to make
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: somebody's life better. Yeah, and if we what's frustrating is
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: I know the resources this government has and the tools
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: at our disposal, and if we actually channeled them in
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: a way that was targeted and thoughtful and productive, it
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: would be I mean, we could transform We have transformed
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: this country before, right, you know, RAO, interstate highways, clean drinking, Like,
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: There's so much we could do, but instead we're yelling
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: at each other on social media. And it's I think
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: that's that's what's really unfortunate about all of it.
• 39:59
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• 41:50
  Speaker 1: I think sometimes, you know, in reporting, it's I've always
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: thought it was really important to change beats. Now I
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: never did, and but having a fresh set of eyes
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: joined me on any beat was always helpful. You know what,
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: what have I gotten used to that isn't normal? But
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: I'm treating as normal. So you're a fresh set of eyes.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: What is Congress treat as normal that You're like, w TF?
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: What I mean? This? This is insanity. Give me a
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: few things like that. We already talked about the stock trading.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: I think you can look through any number of the
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: ethics reports that are at least now public that in
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: any other environment, even what's already publicly made available would
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: lead to lead to the dismissal of members.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: Just very out.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: Again, it's this disconnect, and this is why people are like,
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: you can get away with anything if you're elected, or
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: if you're rich, or if you're you know, well connected.
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: But meanwhile, I can't pay my damn ortgage, right, I
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: can't find a job, and so like that's.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: The what the heck is is all of this like.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: Good good for me, not for not for thee or
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: if you're you know, if you know the presence people,
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: you can get a part.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: And if and I have to say like.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: Both is as like a kid who grew up in
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: like a steel town that shut down, Like I feel that, and.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: It's it's frustrating.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: It's hard to see because there are I think there
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: are so many good people who are there for the
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: right reasons.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: But all that's let me let me ask you this
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: is it is the following statement true that ninety percent
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: of the work you do in Congress, there's ninety percent
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: agreement on nine of the work that we do. I
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: don't think so currently. No, you think it's that you
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: think that what we're fighting over is more than ten
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: percent of these days. And I look at it not.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: You can look the numbers of suspension bills that we
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: pass every week, right, So like if you look at
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: it from a pure bill number perspective, yes, but I
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: think about all of the in my opinion, the terrible
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: things that were put into reconciliation, the debt increase, the
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: healthcare changes that are taking away of food supports, the
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: transfer of tax cuts to the wealthiest of the country,
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: and those are like I weigh though so much more
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: heavily in terms of like big things, things that are
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: impactful to this country that like renaming a post office.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: I can't sort of give the same I got you wait,
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: so like in terms of like number of bills. Sure,
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: in terms of like impact or the magnitude of the issues,
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: not so much.
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: Well, that's it is because there is such a What
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: I try to convey to folks outside of Washington is
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: that you know, there's the stuff that gets the most
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: attention is still only ten percent of the of say
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: there's two Washington's. There's like a Washington that's consistently having
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: to get things done enough to let everything function. And
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: then there's the performance art political theater of Washington. And
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: I feel like the House of Representatives, those that have
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: whose names are the most famous are the ones that
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: do the least.
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of truth to that. And
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: that's a choice, right. I think at the end of
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: the day, you get you to choose, like do you
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: want to try to get stuff done or or do
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: you try to go viral?
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: All right, let me get at a couple of things here.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: The redistricting in Maryland is something that you were supportive
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: of politically, but glad it didn't happen, or do you
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: think it should have happened.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: I think it reinforces why we should be doing national reforms.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, if Republicans and Democrats and we both yell
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: at each other about how terrible as in all the states,
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: then like, let's again, let's come together and do something
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: bipartisan and roll it back out everywhere.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: You know, you have a simple way to solve this,
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: to potentially mitigate this issue. So my reform obsession is
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: something that Congress regularly did until nineteen twenty, which was
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: expand the size of the House. And you know, because
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: of a fight between the two parties about how much
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: we should reapportion and how many new seats should be
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: added to Congress, in nineteen thirty they shut it down.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: Four thirty five became the number, and we went from
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: you went from representing one per three hundred and fifty
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: thousand to now one per eight hundred and it's on
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: its way to one two a million. And that was
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: not the founder's intent. And the bigger these congressional districts
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: are ironically the easier it is to use a faction
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: to win them, right, and if you actually narrowed them,
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: and if you had more of them, you know, essentially
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: we went back to one per three fifty. And I
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: think you could do this as constitutional amendment if you
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: wanted to, and sort of mandate that the House had
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: to expand make sure that no congressional district was bigger
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: than point oh three percent of the population, which is
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: the math that would get you to about one per
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: four hundred thousand. That you may not need the gerrymander,
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: you know. And look, it would fix the electoral college
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: discrepancies because it would raise the numerator right, and you
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: would have less likelihood. There'd still be a chance that
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: the popular vote and the electoral college would go differently,
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: but it's like a one percent chance, not where we
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: are now, which is somewhere in that ten to fifteen
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: percent range, which is destabilizing to the democracy. It just
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: is I think we all can you have a series
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: eve enough elections in a row or the majorities, you know,
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: then people lose faith. I mean we've seen that in
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: Israel's dealing with this. The majority hasn't been that government
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: hasn't been a majority government in thirty years, you know,
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: and you sort of see what happens. There any appetite
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: inside the House to uncap the House as the as
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: us dorky kids who would like to who would like
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: to see this happen?
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: Call it, uh nothing that I've I've heard. I hear
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: more rumblings about things like rain choice voting. Frankly, and
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: that's mostly from the Democratic side of the House. I
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: haven't really heard much appetite other than folks who have
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: been impacted on the Republican resist by the raddiction who who.
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: Well, that's been the dirty little secret is that the
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: people that hate this the most are the actual members
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: of the US House, Like they're literally be treated like
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: ponds in this game again between Trump and the Democrats.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, and look, and so I understand like why
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: Democrats punched back, why there was a response, but I
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: tried to lean back into like I was ready drunk anywhere.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: But it's it's.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: A chance for us all to say, we've all said
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: this is wrong. We've said's wrong. In Texas, we said wrong,
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: you know, Democrats criticized Texas, Republicans critics a California. So
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: then we agree. So let's do something about it. Oh yall,
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: eventually least not yet. What's your advice to came Jeffries
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: if you become speaker, keep it, keep it simple, focus
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: on that kitchen table, you know. Let's let's raise wages.
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: Let's provide opportunities for people to find jobs or get
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: trained for jobs.
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: Let's lower costs through ending tariffs.
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: Let's make healthcare more affordable by pushing the ACA Tax
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: Credit extension.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: And let's let's lead with our values. Let's lead with integrity.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: Let's let's pass the Pardon Integrity Act, and let's fix
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: the pardons. Let's band stock trading by members of Congress.
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: Six or seven things that people understand and get. Let's
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: try to put it on the president's desk and let him.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: Say, Now, what's interesting there is you didn't say anything
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: about impeachment or account. It doesn't sound like you'd like
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: to see that be a top priority.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: Okay, Look, I voted to advance the articles of impeachment
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: this term against this pressent. I think you certainly have
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: done any number of things that are are worthy of impeachment,
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: and so I'm prepared to do that.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: I'm prepared to hold.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: This president accountable at the end of the day. I
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: also understand math, and so even if we impeach the
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: president in the House, I don't see the numbers or.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: The math changing in the Senate. And so maybe it's
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: an important Well, that's a question, you know. It's funny.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: I had this conversation with George Conway, who's running for Congress,
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: on this issue, which in some ways I appreciate the
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: honesty about it, right and the transparency. Right. What mandate
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: do you want? Here's the mandate I want you voters
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: decide whether you give it to me. There's two schools
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: of thought here on a third impeachment right. One school
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: says you have to show you're you're going to try
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: to hold them accountable, because you've got to send a
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: message to the next president and the next person that
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: may hold office. Another says, if you shoot the if
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: you go for the if you shoot the king again
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: and miss again, have you made it where that tool
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: in the toolbox is no longer a usable tool? I can?
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: I can, I can argue both sides of this. If
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: you made me do it, where do you fall I
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: fall on?
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: I want to actually have accountability where we can, and
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: so part of the reason why I think taken the
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: House is so important is really the oversight hearings and
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: the subpoenas that we can do and actually getting information
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: out to the public that makes it harder for this
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: president to keep operating in what I think are often
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: lawless ways and passing the legislation that, in my opinion,
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: for example, is the common sense reforms to ice that
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: are both best practice and that are overwhelmingly supported by Americans.
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: And so I'm not opposed to impeachment. In fact, was
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: affirmatively for it. But I think at the end of
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: the day, accountability means that we're changing what's happening in
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: people's lives, and we're changing the restraints on this president
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: and future presidents, and so I'm for whatever does That
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: is sort of my focus in all of this.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: All right, let me get you out of here. On
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: Wes Moore for president, he has said he's not running
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: for president in twenty twenty eight, and I think it's
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: actually true. He is currently not running for president in
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty yes, that I'm aware of. If he chooses
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: to run in twenty twenty eight, is there any hesitation
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: in your part to endorse him.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to broad coalition of I think exceptional
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: Democrats that we have. I am not pre committing to
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: endorse any of them, look forward to seeing what they
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: all have to offer for America. The Governor's been a
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: great partner here in Maryland. I think he would be
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: a viable candidate should he changed from now to striking
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: the now part of the answer. But I think that,
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: especially in this moment, that Democrats need to put all
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: of our voices forward and I think have a robust
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: discussion about what the future of our party is going
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: to be, who's best equipped to lead us? And I
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: think it'd be great to have Governor more be part
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: of that conversation, but not at a point where I
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: would be endorsing any particular candidate at this point.
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: What does what does electability mean to you? How do
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: you define it? If that's going to be quite the
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: debate in twenty twenty eight? Who's electable? And what's electability?
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: I mean? And obviously it's true at senses. Who can win?
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: I think I think it's someone who has policies that
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: resonate with the American people and someone who can be
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: cool and fun.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: And I feel like that's one of the places where Democrats.
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: I do think there's got to be a little bit
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: of a personality test here.
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we've fallen fat flat on our faces
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: as Democrats. We've lost the sort of swagger and the
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: coolness of our presidential candidates.
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: But it just it hasn't and it's Cleton and Obama
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: had their own level of cool when they were in office.
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: Even Biden the first time, you know, the aviators in
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: the ice cream it was, it was a little bit
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: of a swagger and a thing. And so figuring out
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: as a party, how we get back to having both
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: someone with the right policies, who can I think speak
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: to those working interesting.
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: So you really think the Democrats need to find what
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: one what the kids might call it, the main character
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: they need to find. They need to find, you know,
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: I find my one of my favorite lines during the
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty presidential debates was from Michael Bennett and he said,
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: you know, if you elect me president, you may go
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: three weeks without hearing from me. And I thought, hey,
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: there's I like that. But I realized I'm not I'm
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: not the maturity I think. So the point is is
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: you're saying that is not what you think the country
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: is going to be looking for. Is is somebody to
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: be a character, a sort of Gerald Ford and I
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: say that, show me some.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: Show me some rids man like as as as my
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: daughter and her friends would say, Yeah, I think you
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: have to be able. You can have the best vision
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: and ideas in the world. But if you can't and
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: then and look, Trump is a hell of a salesman.
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: He puts on a hell of a show. I don't
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: agree with most of his policies. I think they're garbage
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: for this country, but he puts on a great show.
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: And he did it at the State of the Union, right,
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: didn't didn't talk about a ran at all, but the
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: show and the spectacle was impressive. And so we need
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: I think we need someone who both can speak to
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: our values and touch our hearts, but also can do
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: it in a way that people are like, Yeah, let's.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: Go Coivers and Johnny Olcheskey, how'd I do? Not getting it? Okay? Johnny? Oh,
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: it's I think man, you got it? Johnny Oh, I
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: mean it's going to be you ever run for state
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: wide office that you definitely have to be Johnny Oh,
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: that's easy on the bumper sticker, right, I.
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: Think that's it. That's the sticker. Now we're gonna just
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: make the transition.
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: Well, I enjoyed this, joyed getting to know you. Likewise,
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: let's see if the uh you're gonna is the Are
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: the Oriols going to make Camden Yards a hot ticket again? Uh?
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: Ti Alonso was a great free agent pick up. The
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: fact that we optioned Dean Kramer to the Miners tells
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: me that we have a starting rotation that actually looks
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: pretty good this year. So I'm a big fan of
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: our new ownership team.
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: Uh yeah, No, I'm jealous. I wish he bought the Nets.
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: I was I was hoping that that David. I was like, no, no, no,
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: no no, he took Baltimore and we lost David Rubinstein.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: But you're right, you do have a good owner, a
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: great owner, great team. Oriol Park is quintessential like the
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: new era. So yeah, I'm always big. Also, like, it's
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: hard to be Johnny Oh and.
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: Not be for the O's. So you got to be
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: for the O's, right, you know, you never know who, right?
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: So uh yeah, I can to see the black and
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: orange Johnny O hats there for you. So Anyway, Congress
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: didn't great to get to know you. Thank you, I
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: appreciate it. H.