Latest / Downshift With Tonnika / Young Technicians Aren’t the Problem. Bad Mentorship Is. | Phil Ubinger & Hunter Jackson - Ep 39

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Young Technicians Aren’t the Problem. Bad Mentorship Is. | Phil Ubinger & Hunter Jackson - Ep 39 · Downshift With Tonnika

• [Tonnika Haynes] You can't use my brain to do your work. Come to me with some solutions. You're definitely going to have questions. I want to hear the questions. And then when people say there's no such thing as a stupid question. Yes, there is. But if you let people do that, if you let a technician do that, a service advisor, even the parts person, then how do they learn? [Benjie Burris] Welcome to downshift with Tanika Haynes, the automotive auntie. The thing about Tanika, she gets to know you. She'll laugh and cut up with you, but then she'll hit you with some knowledge that you may not want, but that you need. Let's downshift. [Tonnika Haynes] So, yeah, I was just chatting it up with Phil and, um, talking about, you know, why I wanted to do this. And it is, today we're going to talk about mentorship and how it matters. Um, in our industry, mentorship is important. Like every day, I hear people talking about young people not wanting to work. Uh, technicians are impossible to find and nobody wants to learn. The future of the industry is doomed. It's all over. And I don't believe any of that. I mean, some of it is true. People are scared to come into the industry, but I think it's an internal problem. Um, but I do know there's a lot of young people that are still wanting to learn. And, um, I think it's important that we have experienced techs that are caring enough to want to teach and mentor the young technicians who are hungry to learn. So I just wanted to highlight that story today. Is that cool? [Hunter Jackson] Yeah, absolutely. That sounds good. [Tonnika Haynes] That sounds good. Okay. So, um, Hunter, let me find out about you first. Why, why automotive? [Hunter Jackson] Um, that's a good question. Uh, to be honest, I wanted to be a car designer growing up. I've always liked cars. And then I had a really bad drafting teacher in high school and it kind of left a sour taste in my mouth. And I was like, well, I like cars. So I guess I'll go to school to be a mechanic and just the rest is history. And then, uh, I actually was decided I was in a rough place, uh, just a stagnant job. Um, I just wasn't, I thought I wanted to get out of the industry, long story short. Uh, and I was doing engineering, mechanical engineering through weight tech full time on top of school for about a year there. And then I switched jobs and then, and actually that's how I met Phil. And then all of a sudden, what do you know? I switched jobs. My passion was reborn and I sadly quit the school part. Um, I should have just kept with it, reflecting back on it, but it would have been five years full-time school, um, on top of work, uh, and, uh, buckled down, you know, that said, said, Hey, if I'm going to quit this school, I need to make a career out of this automotive mechanic stuff and, uh, buckled down, uh, learned substantial amounts from Phil and, uh, others that carry car care. Um, and got all my ASEs, you know, just scanner, banner, blah, blah, blah, blah, kind of thing. [Tonnika Haynes] So you're like self motivator. Sounds like a lot of people. [Hunter Jackson] I'm self motivated to a degree sometimes. Uh, and I think it's just more of a, I realized like if I'm going to quit this school, I need to buckle up and put on my big boy pants if I want to provide for my family. [Tonnika Haynes] So when you first started at carry car care, like what were you hoping to learn there? Was that just a job because you're just needed a job or did you, had, had you already made that mind switch that this is what I really want to do? [Hunter Jackson] Um, so I dubbed my last, my job before carry car care was he was, or it was a great shop, but it was just stagnant and I was just there trying to put this in a better term. It was just stagnant and it just wasn't for me at the current season of my life and I just wasn't as internally motivated and I switched because I wasn't in the right mindset and carry car care wasn't, it was supposed to be partially a job, but I was more so looking for a home and just seeing where that took me. And then I realized, Hey, this automotive industry has more good people in it that want to teach, and aren't worried about share of production, money, money, money kind of thing. [Tonnika Haynes] Yeah. Those things are important because we got to pay the bills and cut your check, but you definitely need to pour into your employees. That's important. Um, and I wish more shop owners would learn that it is something that you have to continuously learn, but I think a lot of shop owners are looking at the wrong KPIs at certain times. So feel Dr. Phil, tell us a little bit about your journey. How long have you been at carry auto care? How long have you been in the industry? [Phil Ubinger] Well, I, um, I've been at carry car care since, uh, 2005. Okay. So 20, 21 years. Um, I've been in the industry since 1984 graduated high school. During high school, I went halfway through half a day through high school and half a day at the Votech and I learned automotive while I was in high school. Um, I had all my ASEs within, I would probably say within six months of graduating high school. And so I understood that ASEs were important to me and I, I kind of wanted, I kind of wanted to be around people who thought ASEs were important to them. Um, so I kind of, I always kind of, you know, promoted the idea of getting your ASEs. Um, um, and I, I worked in Pennsylvania. I mean, I grew up in Pennsylvania and then I moved from there to Florida and from Florida to North Carolina. And I just been doing it in a variety of different shops. I've worked in very large shops, small shops. I gravitated mostly to the family owned smaller shops, but you know, throughout my career, I just had, sometimes I just had to work where I had to work. Um, landing at carry car care was a huge thing for me, for my family. Um, it was close to home. It was five days a week. It was, it was, it was a place that understood that family was important to them. Um, and BJ and Kelsey were not owners at that time. They were much, much younger. I mean, take 25, 22 years off of Kelsey's age. I mean, it puts her near high school. [Tonnika Haynes] Don't do that. [Phil Ubinger] So, you know, so I was, I was employed by her father and he had a strong family. Um, I can't think of the word, but like it was important. Family was really important to him. So when family things came up with me, he understood. And throughout my 20 some years, the whole, the whole family thing has been really strong. Um, for, for a very long period of time, there was only two technicians that were ASC certified. Um, and then Hunter showed up. I don't remember what year you showed up. [Benjie Burris] I think it was 2022, 2022. [Phil Ubinger] He got his ASCs in a very short period of time. I would say, I can't remember. I would say probably within a year. [Hunter Jackson] Yeah. It was like, I got eight within, I think it was like eight. Yeah. Cause I did two every two months. [Phil Ubinger] Yeah. So within a year of him being there, you know, after being there for almost 20 years, there was only two of us were ASC certified master technicians. And then Hunter shows up. And within one year, he's, he was a master tech and he dedicated himself to becoming one. That's when for me, like the light turned on, like this guy cares about his career. He cares about his future. He cares about the industry. And it was, it was an easy thing to, for me to, to help him. It was just easy. Um, so that's my, that's my journey to becoming his mentor. [Tonnika Haynes] So he says, proud to say that he was excited for you guys to have this conversation, but for feel, I want to know who mentored you. Did you have a mentor coming up? [Phil Ubinger] I, the, the very first person that jumps into my head is my very first job. It was at a local tire shop. And the guy was, I can't even think of his name, but the guy was, I was probably 18, maybe 19, 18, 19. He was probably in his mid twenties and he, he was like, he was just, he was just like a chill person. He wasn't like, like Uber focused on grinding out the hours. And he wasn't, um, you know, like all about me, me, me. He was just like a chill person. And if I asked him questions, he would, he would take the time to answer them. And shortly after I was there, maybe a year after I was there, he moved on to another shop. And then shortly after that, I, I moved away. So that's the only person that I can think of that was that what I could say would be a mentor. Um, and throughout my career, I did, I did bounce around a lot. Like this was the eighties and the nineties and you, it was, it was difficult to advance in a shop. If there was somebody there who was a little bit older than you, a little bit more experienced than you. I was young, 18, 19, 20 years old and finding a shop that I could advance in was not easy. So the, the, the, the idea was your toolbox has wheels. So if it's not working out where you are, go find another one. And that's kind of the way I had to work through the early parts of my career. So that guy was the only guy that, that I kind of hung with for about a year and everybody else at all the other shops, there was just lots and lots of transition throughout the years, just lots of transition. [Tonnika Haynes] Well, you talked about how that at the other shops at the senior tech or the lead tech, you knew if he was going to be there, that there was no room for you to grow. Do you think that that's because the shop owners didn't invest in your growth or that the guide was possibly threatened by you taking his place? I think it's both. [Phil Ubinger] I think it's both. Yeah. The shop owners, they have to lean on what they know. Right. So if you have, if you have a guy that's been there for five, 10 years and, and he's a, he's a constant, like he's somebody who can crank out the, the, the, the expected amount of hours. And, and we can talk about that too, but we'll talk about it all. [Tonnika Haynes] Phil talk about it. [Phil Ubinger] And then that, and then that guy is somebody who shows up every day. He does the job. He does good quality work. Well, they're going to lean on him. I mean, it's, it's only natural. Right. And to the early, the early years for me, it really felt like I had to cut my teeth. Like, like you were not really respected. You were respected, but you really didn't get the group respect, like the shop respect, the camaraderie respect from the other guys until you, you know, you had to really grind it out. You had to have some really tough jobs that you scratched your head on for days and you had to really fight hard and work hard to try to get, you know, hours and stuff. And then, then they were like, okay, you were down in the trenches where we used to be. Now you're working your way out. And I think that whole mentality needs to change. And I hope it is changing. [Tonnika Haynes] But if it would change in my opinion, then you would have more people like your mentee here, Hunter that can come in there and grow. Because I mean, honestly, how long can you sit there and be the top dog at the shop? Before it starts to wear on your mind and your body and your spirit. I'm no spring chicken. I might talk a good game, but at about a certain time of the day, Ms. Tanika is just as dumb and tired as she could be. So if I were not, for me, it's my front office staff. If I didn't step out the way and say, okay, let me see if they can do it now and not try to be the top dog and say, oh, I'm blah, blah, blah, blah. And not let ego get in the way and edge other people out, ego, edging, others out, whatever. I mean, I think that's part of the industry problem. Like we've got the head mechanics, the big dogs, very, very seasoned technicians that don't either have, they have the ego problem or they just don't have the patience to train up the next generation, or they're not putting them through the hazing. For example, it's not hazing. Cause that sounds a little crazy, but there is a little bit of hazing that has to go on in the shop. You know, you gotta, everybody's got to get old oil bath. Right. And then, you know, why wouldn't you feel Hunter comes in the shop and he's, he's got the young, strong gristle. Cause he doesn't have bone yet. He's just got cartilage. Um, and you're making him do the heavy lifting, but why he's doing that heavy lifting for you. He's also learning. Does that make sense? So Hunter, when did you realize that Phil wasn't just training you? He was being your mentor. Cause that's more than just teaching somebody how to do a job properly. That's a whole three 60. Like when did you figure out like this, this is, this is my mentor. [Hunter Jackson] Um, that's a good question. Probably. I realized whenever I was first with there, the way Carrie car care is kind of set up. Um, I would say like, we'll say three quarters of the shop is on one side of the building. And then the other one quarter is on what we call, I called it Phil's side of the building. [Tonnika Haynes] Cause I've been there before. Which side is your side? [Phil Ubinger] That's the upper side. [Tonnika Haynes] The upper side. You're on the other side, the Upper West side. [Hunter Jackson] And so after I got, uh, finished my onboarding and all that stuff, I got moved upstairs. That's Phil. And for the most part, I mean that everyone comes in to check on you and the alignment racks up there. So you talk to everyone all the time, but for the most part, it's just Phil and I 80, 90% of the time. Um, and so we'd always, you know, just start cracking jokes, you know, give it. And she was the older guy. So I'd always go to him for help because he's right beside me. And regardless, it just, when I learned that like whenever I would try to go to him to cherry pick for answers, which I've got a bad habit of doing, it's just something of my generation. I try to cherry pick for answers of a, like a difficult diagnosis or like explaining like a shortcut or something. He would answer my question with a question and drive me insane. But in hindsight, I've reflected back on after the end of the day, I'm like, Huh, that really made me critically think and actually learn versus when you cherry pick for answers and then you get handed the chair and you, you don't learn as much. [Tonnika Haynes] Right. And the one thing I told my son, I was telling Phil before you logged in is, um, not everybody gets tired of hearing about Jordan. I don't care. That's my baby. Um, he's getting out of the Mercedes drive program. He's going to be working at a Mercedes and carry. And one thing that I told him is they're slow right now because the other one of his friends staying with me now, he's like, they're slow. I say, dude, I need you to get in there and find a mentor. You get in there and you find a tech that's been there for a long time. And Jordan can make friends with any and everybody. You know, Jordan can talk to a fish if you want it to. I'll say get in there and get under the wing of someone that's seasoned, that wants, that respects the industry and wants to teach. Now everybody's not set out for teaching. I know that. Oh my goodness. Um, but I'm sure, I hope that he can find somebody in there that could help him learn how to think critically. Cause you nailed the, um, you hit it on the head when you said your generation and how old are you Hunter? [Hunter Jackson] Um, 29, 29. [Tonnika Haynes] You're, you're, you're not a baby, but you still have a little spring chicken. My son's only 20, 20 years old. But what I do know, not in my household, there's a lot of coddling that happened in a couple of generations and it kind of came into the workforce. And so, um, even though we don't want to have the responsibility, um, there are people like me and Phil that kind of have to, you know, they call me automotive auntie. We have to auntie and uncle you. And so sometimes that's more than just talking about that repair procedure. It's talking about confidence and work ethic and communication. So it's a lot more than technical ability that makes a great employee. How much of that do you think you picked up from Phil? [Hunter Jackson] Um, I think Phil was a part of it for sure. But I mean, I, when my, so I first started out in a dealership changing oil, um, and I hadn't grown up yet. I was immature. I was, I had some work ethic, but you know, if I didn't have anything to do, I'd be sitting there on my phone, you know, I still be doing good work, but I wasn't like uber motivated. And then I got, I was part time cause I was going to automotive school at the time and I got let go and the tool guy got me a job at an independent shop. This is before carry car care and that owner of the shop, he was kind of old school in a way of if I'm paying you hourly, you need to be working. You're not sitting on your phone. I'm not saying like, Hey, I need to be, you need to be working the whole entire day. You can stop, you know, talk to your wife or talk to your girlfriend or whatever. But he was really kind of hard on me and kind of said like, Hey, like you don't want me to give you something to do. Like he wasn't trying to be mean about it, but he said, my busy work is going to be a lot worse than your idea of busy work. [Tonnika Haynes] And that sounds like me. That's how I am with my guys. Like you don't want me to find something to do. Like if you see me walk by, you put up be busy. [Hunter Jackson] Yeah. [Tonnika Haynes] I mean, I think he wasn't being mean. He was just telling you the truth though. You're on the clock. [Hunter Jackson] Yeah. And it kind of taught me that work ethic of, Hey, this is what it means to be a professional. Hey, we, when you're done with, you know, a job, you know, clean the engine bay, you know the way, this is how you talk to customers. This is how you do this. And it was a critical part of my foundation. And then Phil just kind of built off that, I guess you could say. And it also helps that I've always, I tried to do my best to help others. And so that kind of mindset always translates into the automotive world in terms of trying to do a good job and trying to learn. [Tonnika Haynes] Did you ever think when Phil, like, I don't think Phil comes off like this. I've never met Phil before. It seems like a pleasant guy, but there was ever a time he was like, well, you know what? This guy's getting on my nerves. [Hunter Jackson] Yeah. Phil got on my nerves from time to time. Whoa, whoa, whoa. That's not what she said. I mean, most of the time we had our moments. I mean, we never had any negative, super negative moments, but I mean, when you're essentially there 50 hours a week and you're working with this guy, not everything's going to be sunshine and daisies 24 seven. I mean, we had a lot of great times, but I think 98, 99% of the time we would always have a good time. And I think that's what Phil is like. If he was watching what he was obsessed with sailing videos at the time, I would always give him grief about sailing videos. And if I watched my fantasy football show or something like that podcast, he'd give me grief about the podcast, you know? [Tonnika Haynes] Oh, that sounds like healthy banter. So looking back, I got one question like Hunter, what was the piece of criticism that feel like, what was the criticism that you guys maybe bumped head on that actually helped you the most? Like something that you couldn't see that Phil saw in you, you were kind of stubborn with it, that maybe helped you the most and it's still continue to stick with you now. [Hunter Jackson] Overthinking things and that, Hey, I need to have some confidence in myself and that, um, that I can do this kind of thing. Uh, not that I couldn't do it, but I've always just kind of lacked confidence to a degree. And so the silly things like the, whenever he'd answer my questions with questions, like, dude, you know, this like stop overthinking things, you know, kind of thing. Just the whole answering questions with questions to subliminally help build confidence kind of thing. [Tonnika Haynes] So feel like constructive criticism. A lot of people can't take that and it's a lost art. Like people are really sensitive now. It sounds like the first person you talked about Hunter sounds like the way my dad ran his shop. I mean, he wasn't, he's still alive and with us, but he wasn't a, he was, he is a hard ass, but he was right all the time. And there was not a lot of sugar with it. Um, but sometimes people are really sensitive to constructive, constructive criticism. I think it's like a whole lost art. Phil, how do you correct somebody without taking away all of their confidence? Like there's, I can't, I can't imagine there's some senior texts or lead texts or whatever that are just talking to these young kids. Like they're the dumbest things since like they're dumb as boxes of rocks. Like, how do you do that? How do you correct somebody without discouraging them? [Phil Ubinger] Well with, with, just to be clear, um, there weren't very many technicians that, that I latched onto and left and the, and the, and the technician latched onto me. Um, and, and it's mostly because, um, um, of who Hunter is and, and what he brought to the table. Um, so how do I do constructive criticism? Well, it's, I, I guess it's part of my, my parenting. I have three children. Uh, one of them is almost Hunter's age. So a lot of times I would just say stuff to Hunter that I would normally say to my children. Like he would ask me a question and I might go, dude, we talked about this yesterday. Did you forget? You know, and I would just like, I would just like kind of be like right there. Like, did you forget? What do you mean? I'd be like, well, we did this and we did this and we did this. And he'd be like, well, this is a little different. I'd be like, no, this really isn't. It's pretty much the exact same thing we talked about yesterday. Yeah. So I would, I would try to remind him of the conversations that we would have in a way that would try to get him to remember that we had these conversations. And then I always asked him questions. He would ask, Hey, how about this? I would say, well, what do you think it is? Does that sound like that would be an emissions repair? You know, does that sound like that would be a misfire repair? You know, like I would ask, try to ask him questions about what he was asking me to get him to think about what he was asking me. A lot of times I would say to him, Hunter, what would you do if I wasn't here? [Tonnika Haynes] Great question. I did the same thing with my front office. What would you do if I were not here? [Phil Ubinger] And sometimes he'd go, I'll just go downstairs. I'd say, no, if I wasn't here, like, would you immediately run downstairs or would you pause and go, okay, I've gotten this far. Let me think about what I've done. And I've had a lot of conversations with BJ and Kelsey on this exact thing. And since, since Hunter, and one of the things I've learned about myself, which I didn't realize until I was working with Hunter was I in, in, in my growing years, I've learned that I don't, and this is gonna be really hard for me to say, it's gonna be really hard for people to hear. I don't really like, I don't really like wasting my time with people who don't want to bring something to the table. And that is a really, you know, so if, if someone would come to me and say, Hey, how do I fix this water pump? I would immediately ask, well, what have you done so far? Well, I haven't really done anything. I'm just worried about it. I'm concerned about it. Well, how about you get elbow deep in it first and start to figure out some of the problems that you might run into before you come to me and say, Hey, how do I fix this oxygen sensor? Or, Hey, how do I diagnose this EGR valve? You know, we have, we have a computer that has all data. And at the time we had, um, that other right. And I'm like, what have you done to this point? And if you haven't done anything, then what, what do you expect me to do? You expect me to drop all my tools, walk over, point to it and say, test this, you know, sometimes they do. So what ha what I learned about myself was, if, if, if a technician brings something to me, Hey, I tested this circuit. It has 12 volts. It has six volts. It, it, you know, now I can say, okay, did you test the other circuits? Cause this one sounds, you know, like, what did you do to this point? And that's what Hunter would do. He would, I, and if he did, if he would ask me a question and he didn't really bring anything to me, I would be like, I think you know where to go. So go back to the car, get some information, come back. If you need to, like, you're not required to come back to me, but if you feel you need to come on back and we'll talk about what you have found. And then he would be, you know, two days away and he'd start laughing. He'd be like, ah, dang it. I'd be like, dude, you found it. [Tonnika Haynes] Didn't you? [Phil Ubinger] Yeah. I'm like, yeah, see, you know, you had it. You just had to, you just had to work through your, your own hurdles. Not necessarily the car hurdles. Sometimes it's your own hurdles, you know, like, right. You're, you're, you know, you're, you're looking through your own mindset and holding yourself back. Yeah. Yeah. You want to want, sometimes guys want the easy way out. And, and I, I have way too many years under my belt to give someone the easy way out. [Tonnika Haynes] It's like, sorry. Like what you're saying is a part of leadership that I, um, I, I love what you just said. I really do. Because even with my front office staff, you know, I'm not back there mentoring the technicians, but it's like, okay, you can't use my brain to do your work. [Benjie Burris] Right. [Tonnika Haynes] Come to me with some solutions. You're definitely going to have questions. I want to hear the questions. And then when people say there's no such thing as a stupid question. Yes, there is. Yes, there is. Okay. So maybe I know, I know I do this thing that when you ask me a question, even with a client, a customer, I, and if I think it's a stupid question, I will repeat the question to you to make sure you heard what you said. And usually people are just like what you just said. Oh, oh, all right. All right. You're right. You're right. You're right. But sometimes it's just easier to lean to somebody else's brain at times. But if you let people do that, if you let a technician do that, a service advisor, even in the parts person, then how do they learn? They don't learn. And then they don't feel the confidence in themselves. So right now, if a service advisor for an office, front line, people have a question, I want them to come to me with some solutions. Like Ms. Tanika. So this is what I'm going through. I think I should do this or maybe I should do this. All right, shoot. What you got. But like you said, have you invested in your own problem yet? No. Well, going back, unless you want to give me a little cut of your paycheck this week, then don't do that. And I did that with my kids. It just came to me. So Santana and Jordan will tell you, you know, we call it a French fry tax or dad tax or mom tax. I did not call them my kids a whole lot. I know they're full as my problem, but there's a lot of things that I was like, I'm not doing that. And one thing was cutting their food. And I know it sounds really silly. I would not cut your waffles or your pancakes or even your steak or your chicken. You, if you're going to eat it, you're going to figure out how to take that food apart and get it in bite sizes. So you don't die. Okay. Even to this day. And so my kids figured out what state and chicken that they could use the kitchen shears and cut easier than an actual fork and a knife. So now they know how to use a fork and a knife at 20 something years old, but they will get the kitchen shears and cut their steak. Because if you want mommy to cut it, it's going to cost you a tax and I'm going to eat some of it. And it would take them off so much. So if you want to use my brain to diagnose your job that you're getting the hours on, give me some of that paycheck at the end of the month at the end of the week or whatever. And if like, Oh no, no. Okay. Then if you, nah, I got it. I got it. Then you think about it differently, but it is very easy for adults and children to just lean on somebody else's brains. And you think, Oh, well, you know, the answer, I do know the answer. And you know how I know the answer. Cause I figured it out myself. Now I want you to work on that a little bit. And if I can help you learn, I can do that. But you just can't depend on everybody else forever. That's part of mentorship. And I'm glad that you do that for people. Do you have someone in the shop right now that you're mentoring Phil? [Phil Ubinger] No, actually no. Hunter, did you work with, you worked with Brian and Landon, right? Yes, sir. Yeah. So currently we have pared down our, our technicians down to just four technicians and, and the, the four of us all have many, many years of experience. So I don't, I mean, I, I help them all if they want help, but it's not the same as a new person coming in or someone who is, who is, I would say assigned to a technician and, and going back to, to mentoring, when, when, when you get a new technician and the owner or the manager says, Hey, I want you to work with Hunter. You're kind of being assigned to someone. And I wasn't really assigned to Hunter. He, there, there was another person in the shop who was, we'll just say he had a label of a shop supervisor. We'll just say those two words. I really don't know what the label was, but, and, and, and the relationship was, was expected that if Hunter had issues, concerns, questions, problems, he would go to that person, but that required him to go down to the other side of the shop. Whereas me, I was just 20 feet away. So the relationship between Hunter and I was just like a natural relationship. Like I wasn't assigned to him. He wasn't expected to come to me. We just kind of started off being friends and his, his attachment to, to me only happened because I was next to him. Like, you know and I, I wonder what would have happened if he was assigned to downstairs as a new technician, if they put him downstairs, cause coming upstairs would have been an effort for him to, to, to, to come all the way up, ask me a question, go all the way back down, do the work, come all the way back up. So I kind of wonder what would have happened if he had been assigned to a bay downstairs versus a bay next to me. [Tonnika Haynes] What do you think would have happened, Hunter? [Hunter Jackson] Um, I think there was just a natural kind of, I guess, we related to each other in ways in terms of our mindset kind of thing. And whenever I went to him with a question, not saying the other guy wouldn't help me and would it provide useful guidance and try to force me to critically think. But I think it's just the natural way that Phil would teach me. And I not, the way, the way Phil teaches isn't for everyone. The way Toneika, I apologize. How do you pronounce your name again? [Tonnika Haynes] It's Toneika, you had it right. [Hunter Jackson] Toneika, okay. The way Toneika teaches everyone isn't for everyone. And I think it was just the right mindset for me. And the way he taught me and mentored me was the right way for me to learn at the time. [Tonnika Haynes] If you don't mind me asking, what is the age difference approximately between the two of you guys? [Phil Ubinger] 30 years, give or take a few weeks. [Tonnika Haynes] You know what do you feel at this point in your career? And, um, don't want to sound ageist cause I'm no spring chicken. What lessons, you know, you're not teaching anybody in the shop yet. So you got another kid coming in next week, 20 year old kid. What lessons are you really trying to pass on at this point? Are you teaching somebody to repair the car or are you helping to build a professional? Cause it sounds like you're helping to build a whole person. [Phil Ubinger] So when I was hired in 2005, I was hired by Kelsey's father and Kelsey's father had many years of, of being a manager and an owner. And he had a, it still does a kind of a, kind of a strict set of rules that we were expected to follow. And these strict set of rules are just simple, basic stuff. Like it's simple, basic stuff. Like the first day it comes to mind is you put wheels on and you use a torque stick to torque the wheels. And if you're not going to use a torque stick, put it on the ground and use a torque wrench. You know, it's like, it's, that's a very simple thing. And he was so strict on that. He could walk through the office door, open the door, look across the shop and tell if you were using a torque stick because he could see it. Right. And then he would come over and he would pretty much chew your butt because you weren't doing it. So, so, and I, you know, it's those kinds of things about like the simple, basic, this is the way we expect it to be done type of things. So I get a brand new technician and, and I've been assigned to work with a lot of technicians that carry car care over the years. And you know, if I say something like, yo dude, you got to use a torque stick every time I have all the torque sticks, you can use them anytime you need them, use the proper one for the car. And then the question would be, how do I know? And then I would tell them, you look it up, every car, you look it up to make sure the torque sticks being used, the proper tour sticks being used. And I kind of don't, I kind of run out of patience when I have to tell somebody four, five, six, seven times that you got to use torque sticks. You got to use the right torque stick. So when, when a technician, if I say something, Hey yo dude, you know, you got to use torque sticks. Oh, okay. Yeah. I didn't know that. And then they, and then they start using it that day and they use it from that day on. I'm like, all right, this, this guy, he, he follows the rules. And they're not necessarily my rules. They're just shop rules. And those kinds of things are the things that I see in a new technician. If they're able to understand that the rule is a rule, it's not, it's, it's not something that, that it's only applied to just you as a person. It's applied to everybody in the building and that they, they listen to the rule. They, they, they follow it and they take it on and then it becomes natural every day and not like, Oh, well, you know, sometimes I do. And sometimes I don't, you know, it's, it's the, it's that type of person that, that I say, okay, I am willing to continue to offer you help and, and, and tell you more rules. And carry car care currently has quite a number of rules and they're, they're small, but they're things that they want every technician to be in line the same way. So if a car, yeah, car comes to me, I do it the same way. A car goes to another guy, he does it the same way. So, you know, and that's like what I saw with Hunter. I, I don't even recall telling him about Torque Stix. I mean, he may have been using them from day one and I didn't even need to. And I'd have been like, Oh, cool. I don't have to tell him about Torque Stix. You know, it's like little things like that, that, that, or like little things like rotating tires. If you rotate them the right way, then everybody rotates them the right way. And we have a standard for how you rotate tires, front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, all wheel drive. It's in the book. You just follow the way we're supposed to do it. So when a technician, when a technician accepts the fact that there are standards and the standards might be very different from the last place you were at, but guess what? You're not there. You know, you're not there anymore. So don't tell me like, Oh, we used to do it this way. Go back, go back. [Tonnika Haynes] My deal is like my newest guy's been with me less than 30 days in his first week. He kept telling us what he did at Firestone. And before I could come out of my office, cause he's right there in my office and get to him, I walked out the door and I is maybe it's nine 30 and I said, Hey, what time is it? And he's like, yes, new guys. Like it's nine 30. And then the tech right next to him, he said, yeah, you've got about to 10 o'clock before she has a fit about you saying what you did at Firestone, get it out of your system. And he said it just the way I would. It's like, dude, that is not what we do here. This is how we do it here. And if it was so great at Firestone, he should have stayed there. But this, these are our standard operating procedures. So everybody has the same experience and the customer's cars get the same experience. [Phil Ubinger] So yeah. [Tonnika Haynes] Yeah. [Phil Ubinger] Right. [Tonnika Haynes] You hit it on a hit, but that you can see that, that, that person, young or old, that new person coming in and saying, okay, I'm invested. I want to be here. How do you guys do it? Right. Instead of saying, well, we didn't do it that way. Well, you're not there anymore. Big dog. Why are you not there? [Phil Ubinger] Right. And I, and I would try to remind these new guys that, okay, you're here to carry car care. And we, we are leaps and bounds better than the place you just left. And if you don't believe that. [Tonnika Haynes] Six years independently on without a big, big, big retailer name behind us. [Phil Ubinger] Right. If you don't believe that go back and you'll see how much better it is, you know? So, um, I was sad the day Hunter left because I knew that he was leaving a good place and he wasn't coming back cause he was going to Texas, Texas. Yeah. He left to go to Texas. [Tonnika Haynes] And I mean, Hunter, I remember you saying that you actually shopped around a couple shops before, like you've had a couple of jobs since you've been in Texas. How hard has it been able to, to find a new home for you? [Hunter Jackson] It's been a little bit of a struggle. Um, I moved to Texas because I was ready for change. And my wife and I were at the time of our lives, like, Hey, if we're going to move, we need to move now. And she found an incredible opportunity. I found a really good opportunity, but it just wasn't for me at that season of my life. Uh, it's kind of the best way to put it. And then it's just been a little bit of a struggle because Carrie Carcara is not perfect. I mean, nobody's perfect at the end of the day. And then reflecting back onto it, uh, some of the silly things that weren't perfect there really in hindsight, I mean, no, maybe it wasn't that bad. Maybe I should have just stayed in North Carolina. I mean, the silly things that Carrie Carcara did, I mean, the, the lamb deads are great people. I mean, they gave me bereavement pay after I'd put in my notice to move to Texas. Um, the silly things like that, but it's been a little bit of a struggle. Um, I'm at Genesis of Plano now. Um, and so, um, at a dealership for the first time in nine years, uh, and it's honestly, one, one of my mentors always told me that if what you're doing isn't working, do something different. Um, it's a very stupid saying, but it's just always stuck with me. And so I, one, I was just kind of at a rough spot and one day I prayed and then an old manager messaged me and it just, the cards fell into place and I've honestly been liking the dealership. No, it's not perfect. [Tonnika Haynes] Um, nothing is like, nothing is perfect. No matter what these people lie about their shops, nothing's perfect. [Hunter Jackson] Yeah. And it's not perfect, but I think it fits me at this current season of my life. Um, and it's kind of exciting working for focusing on one car line again versus trying to change gears all the time. And it's just kind of refreshing and just, it's not easy, but it's a different type of mindset you have to have kind of thing. [Phil Ubinger] So, so when, so when, when Hunter went to Texas, he, I, I recall that, that he was very positive about a job that he had landed there. And I, I was like very proud of the job that he had landed. And then when things were no, not, I'll just say, they weren't working out and I I'll just leave it at that. He and I had many hour long discussions over the phone about what would be like the best thing to do. Like, do you, do you, cause him and his wife were planning on making a family and buying a house. And, and I was like, well, you know, if you're going to, if you're going to change jobs, you want to consider, you know, changing now before you have the baby or buy a house or, you know, we talked many, many hours, we talked and, and then he landed another good job and that one was, was good. And, and then things kind of maybe was not so good. So he called me again and we talked for hours again. And, and you know, this is a, this is a relationship that I've never had with another technician at work. Like, like nobody, I mean, people that I've worked with for years have never called me on the phone ever, like because we work 10 hours a day, like nobody wants to talk to anybody. [Tonnika Haynes] But what does that say about you feel that gives, that's a lot to say about how important you are to Hunter. Like, like you really need to sit there and I want you to chew all of that up. Like you have not filled a void, like he was missing anything, but you have just been pouring into this young man for how many years now? And for him to trust you with helping him make life decisions regarding his family and future still after you guys don't get to see each other every day. That makes that lets me know that the relationship you guys built wasn't superficial and it wasn't just about grease and wrenches and cars. So I think it's important like right now, I'm not going to make this into a Dr. Phil moment, but this is a time for Hunter to give Phil his flowers. I mean, this is your opportunity Hunter for you to tell Phil what he means to you. Things that you saw, something you've never said. And I know, I know. So you don't have to do it. The whole wide world on the internet is going to see that Hunter had nothing to say. [Phil Ubinger] Hunter and I have talked for many hours on the phone about stuff and it's all because when he first came to Cary Car Care, he, he showed a level of professionalism and he showed a level of dedication, even like when he was in college and he was trying to get through his his, his studies at school and, and trying to work. And you know, it was like he brought it all to the table in the front. Like he, he like there's nothing that he has to, to, to make up for at the back end now. Like he brought it all up at the front. And that was something that I noticed. Like I noticed that he was somebody who was, who was going to do the work, but give a crap about doing the work, you know? And that reflected through everything and through his marriage and his kids and his house and you know, everything. It's just, it's all there. It's like somebody who gives a crap. And in this industry, there's so many people who just, you know, who fight through their job and their day every day and they, they give a crap, but maybe they don't give a crap, you know? Like maybe they're just miserable and, and just, just hoping for something to get better or hoping for, you know, something. I don't know. I don't know. I don't even know what that would be. I don't even know what I'm trying to say. Cause I, I, I don't try to hope for anything. I just go to work and I work and, and I try to do a good job. And if I see somebody else who does the same thing, then I align myself with, with that type of person. And if a person is just a cranky, I mean, it doesn't have to be an old bastard. It could just be a cranky young guy. Like, sorry, I'm putting space between you and I, because it's just too hard to get through my day. If, if you're the type of person that's dragging me down and Hunter wasn't like that, like he was always, you know, upbeat and like, he went to the gym all the time in the morning before work and crazy. He would get up in the morning and go to the gym. I'm like, dude, you're nuts. But you know, you know, so it was just, it's like, so it doesn't surprise me one bit that he has advanced and will, I know he'll continue to advance. And I, I know that, you know, I see him put stuff on the internet sometimes about the, his diagnostic stuff and he's got lab scopes and computers and all this stuff. And, and I don't see anybody else doing that. Like I don't see anybody that I've ever worked with do that. Everybody just relies on what their environment provides and, and so, yeah. Yeah. [Tonnika Haynes] We talked about, um, on another podcast, how some people get stuck in a shop that's not willing to invest in them. They don't invest in the training and you know, the ASTAs and the tools and things like that. But if you are dedicated to your craft, there's no one or no thing that can keep you from learning. And so it looks like despite, no matter where Hunter's going to land, he is going to learn. I've seen him talk about, you know, Brandon Steckler. I've seen him talk about Paul Danner. So there's so many opportunities for the young techs that don't have a feel, but there's ways to get out there and get involved and learn. And it seems like no matter what you're going to do, Hunter, you're going to be that person that is learning and growing and doing things right and elevating the industry. And I want to thank you Phil for pushing him and teaching him things beyond the wrench and in the grease and helping him develop into the technician that he is, that he's, he is now in all the growth that he's going to continue. You know, he's going to continue to grow. But Hunter, you know, unfortunately you probably have, um, it's going to be your turn to mentor somebody. Do you, have you found someone at your job or at any shop you've been to since you left Cary that you feel like you have been able to mentor? [Hunter Jackson] Yeah, I think there's been, I've always been a person that wants to help others. Um, and so one of the big thing I learned with Phil in terms of me going to him, cherry picking and answering my questions, questions is I give that same, I retain that same mindset. So whenever I go to teach others or somebody comes to me asking a question, I try to do my best to answer their question with a question. And I have found that people, but nobody, I have found incredible people, but nobody just on that next level. I've had a few really good, sharp young technicians that want to learn, um, just nobody yet. That's like on a best friend level kind of thing. [Tonnika Haynes] And it doesn't have to be, I would encourage you to continue to do that. Um, so what do you think like advice for young technicians? If somebody's listening to you, 18, 20, 22 years old, they want to become a technician or they're in the industry and they're just stuck in as a loop tech. Um, first, how do you think they should look for a mentor? How do they earn respect and how do they show that they're serious? [Hunter Jackson] I think the best thing you can do is just constantly, uh, I'm a firm believer in asking why, why I drill it into young techs all the time. Why, why, why, why, why, why is this part failing? Why is the customer asking for a charging test? Why, why do we need to twerk the wheels every time? just constantly being curious and having the mindset of wanting to learn and realizing that if you want to advance, sometimes it has to come at the expense of your free time. Um, and sometimes that isn't fun and pleasant. It isn't fun waking up at 5 AM and watching scanner Danner, before you go to work. Um, but sometimes it can be. Um, and I think just wanting to invest in yourself and asking why, um, is really my biggest two things that I believe in. [Tonnika Haynes] I definitely believe in, we call them, you know, some people call them truth tapes, but I just, it's the tape. What are you deciding to listen to? What are you deciding to spend your time on? You know, you're on the way. You talk about how Hunter gets up in the morning and goes to the gym. That's the decision. The same way that you decide to go to the gym, the same way you decided to go to the club, the same way you decide, you know, to listen to that comedy channel and get a couple laps in. It's the same way you can turn on a YouTube video and watch scanner Danner. So it's your decision and whatever you decide is what you decide. But Hey, if you want to grow and no more, it's not, it's just not going to come to you and it just can't happen in 40 hours a week. Nobody's going to invest in you more than do you invest in yourself? So I know, like I was saying, I know there's shop owners that don't believe in training or they don't have time for it. They're not going to spend the money to send you ASTA. That doesn't mean you can't go by yourself. You can take a vacation and go to the beach. You can take a vacation and go to ASTA or go to tools or go to vision. So young texts, there are so many opportunities to learn what scanner Danner is. Well, when I subscribed for the shop, it was only $11 a month. The book is $60. I believe, I'm not sure, but that's an investment that someone can never take from you. You know, people, we say that, you know, your toolbox has wheels and if you're in a crap shop, your toolbox does have wheels, but your brain, no matter what you learn, you're going to take that with you. So like I said, it doesn't happen in 40 hours. You have to do the work. Just like if you want to gain muscles, you got to go to the gym. I can pray for muscles all I want to. Oh, please bring me muscles. Please. Got to do the work. You got to do the work. You got to do the work and feel advice for mentors. Why would somebody spend time teaching someone when they're busy? Why is mentorship worth it? Like what's the payoff for you? [Phil Ubinger] Well, if you go into it with the idea that there's something in it for me, you're going in for the wrong reason. So, mentorship can happen with any tech at any shop, but the better that the shop is run, the easier it is to have a mentorship happen. So we, I briefly mentioned earlier that, you know, when an older tech is just trying to bang out the maximum amount of hours, if you don't have a shop that recognizes, we'll just say every shop is going to want everybody to have the maximum amount of hours. [Tonnika Haynes] You want to be efficient. Yeah. [Phil Ubinger] But if there's a balance, so if you're able to, if you're able to look at the production of a person and that person's producing an acceptable amount of hours, and you take the pressure off of that person and say, I need you to work with Hunter for a few hours a week. That takes the pressure off the technician and it gives them permission to be able to provide mentorship to somebody when they're not just trying to bang out hours and keep their job. Right? So when a shop is set up in a way that the owners understand that the only way the technicians are going to learn is if they have to invest in a technician for training. If you don't see that at the shop, if you can, if you're able to, you know, enlighten them, great. If they're not interested in being enlightened, then maybe that's not the shop that fits that person. So the tech, the shop management, the shop ownership, the shop philosophy all has to roll into one big ball and then everything works through that process. If you're fighting an owner who only wants you to bang out hours, you'll be lucky if, if two people, if two people who work next to each other even speak throughout the day, right? Like, so it's, it's the, it's this whole thing with the shop that I've worked at many shops in the past where, where it was just bang out the hours and you know, just no talking, no goofing off, whatever, just work, work, work. And at the end of the day you were exhausted and you didn't want to be around anybody and you just wanted to go home and come back and get through your week. And it was, it was not fun. But carry car care is a place where they understand that the only way that they can produce a quality technician is if they invest in that technician with training, with a, a normal, I'll say normal, a normal work schedule. Um, uh, the ability to have a full hour for lunch to be able to unplug completely and just put your feet up and forget about the problems sitting out there in the Bay. Cause who knows? You go back out there in five minutes, you might find it. But if you, if you're trying to, yeah, if you're just trying to drag your, yeah, if you're trying to drag your ass through it through all, you know, all day, you just, you just get, you know, worn down and you can't focus. So, so I think that the mentorship isn't just, isn't just a fluke that happens between two people under a roof. I think it's, it, it really is about the philosophy of the operation of the shop and, and how both people are able to work together. Like if Hunter, if Hunter felt the pressure of, of trying to bang out 50 hours a week, he would have been pretty difficult to try to work with because he would have been like, I just need to, I just need the answer. I just need the answer. I just think that got this done, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he might've been like, screw this place. I'm leaving. [Tonnika Haynes] Yeah. [Phil Ubinger] But instead he was like, able to take a breath, think ask questions, absorb information, apply that to the car, make a repair and be like, Hey, it worked, you know? And I think that's all about the philosophy of the shop and how it's run. I understand that shop owners all need to make money. I, it's no, you know, I've been around a long time. [Tonnika Haynes] It all makes sense. The culture has to be right. You have to have a culture of mentorship and training. And if you have that, that technician that was 80% by default will end up being a hundred, a hundred and 20% because he'll have more knowledge. He'll know what he's doing less mistakes and more confidence. [Phil Ubinger] And like one of the things that happened to, it still happens to carry car care. We get, we get these invitations to go to do training at, um, I like, I think a car quest maybe has a CTI building in Raleigh. CTI. Yeah. So in other facilities like that, and it's not 100% participation in the shop. And I think that from an ownership standpoint, there needs to be a little bit of a little bit of pressure to say, Hey, do you really care about your career? Do you really care about your future? I'm providing you this opportunity to go to training. How come you're not going? And Hunter would go. [Tonnika Haynes] He wouldn't go to train you about a lot of texts that would tell you. It's like, yeah, or ASTA last year and I were right here in Chapel Hill. So you know where we are. [Phil Ubinger] Yeah. [Tonnika Haynes] I, I, I pay for the guys. We go, we live at ASTA. Everybody gets a hotel room. Everybody's getting paid. Yeah. We, we ascend on Raleigh and I want them to enjoy the whole experience, the funds part, the teaching and everything. So every we've done this for the last five years, I believe I'm not, might be wrong, but I think it's been five years we've done it. So my one tech that I was really invested in and I could slowly tell that I'm more invested than you. I try to provide the, the, the training. I do provide the training, uh, as relaxed of an atmosphere as I can. Customer's not always right. We've got KPIs and we've got benchmarks to meet, but they're not the be all. So the week before ASTA, it's like, okay, asking him, I'm getting ready to pay for this ticket. Are you going to go right here? Miles from the house? He says, no, I don't have anybody to watch my dog. And I said, so you come every day to work and who watches your dog while you're at work? Now tech that's invested that also had the dog would have said, yes, but I can't stay because I get to get home to my dog. So that's an excuse. And he, I mean, there's nothing that he had to be invested in other than time. So I need texts to understand that. I want you to be in the right shop with the right culture, the right training. And there are a lot of shops out there, but you're not, if you're not participating in your own rescue, that is a you problem. [Phil Ubinger] Exactly. [Tonnika Haynes] And that, that eventually will separate you from the great. And that's any job, any industry. If you're a young person, nobody's here to give you anything. But if you're coming in that door and you're hungry and you are worth the investment, I will feed you into your fat as a tick. And you're going to find a field and you're going to find a Miss Tanika, and you're going to find a hunter and they're going to help you grow and prosper in all kinds of different areas. But you have to be hungry. And I'm not talking to Phil and I'm not talking to Hunter. I'm talking to that one tech that really maybe hasn't found his mentor. And he's thinking that it's everybody else's fault. But he is, I'm going to ask you young tech to look inward. What did you do about it? The same way Phil told Hunter, okay, you just came to me with your situation. What have you done about it? You're telling me you're in a shop and they don't do training. What did you do for yourself? And when you can elevate yourself, you make yourself more attractive to the next shop. So you can get in the shop with a great culture, be respected and continue to learn and grow and pass that torch on to those that are coming behind you. [Phil Ubinger] Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. [Tonnika Haynes] Yeah. So, um, you know, the automotive industry is, you know, it's not about tools and equipment is built by people. I remember being in my 20 group meeting one time and our coach said, this is a people business. Yes, we fix cars. We fix cars for a living, but we're taking care of people. We're taking care of each other while we're under the same roof for eight to 10 hours a day. And we're taking care of all the citizens that have to go back and forth to work, daycare, all of those things. So this, this is a real people business. It's more than just turning wrenches. It's more than KPIs is more than profit margins. Um, so it is a industry full of humble technicians, some of arrogant, but I think more people are kind of getting that, you know, how do you say it? People are going to have to learn how to respect blue collar trades, but in order for us to earn the respect, we have to show them who we are as an industry. And so feeling Hunter, the hour that I've spent with you, I really feel like you guys are doing it right. And I know there's a lot more people out here doing it right or wanting to do it right. And again, we were just talking before we started recording field. That is some of the stuff that I want to highlight when I'm talking to people on the downshift. So, so if every shop had one field and one Hunter, and we just kept making fields and Hunters only, only field and Hunter, well, you, your name, feel, you can get a job, name, hunt, get a job. Nope. You can't get a job. So I just feel like this episode may have, um, talked to a more seasoned tech that doesn't know that he has a job like you have a job. I have a job to mentor and love on the next generation. If they're willing to accept it, Hunter, now that's your job. You've got that torch. Um, and so I hope a whole lot more people pick up the torch and we stop complaining about the industry and saying, Hey, what can I do to change it for the better? Let's stop talking about all of the problems or the situations say, Hey, maybe I'm a part of the problem. Maybe if that young man came and asked me a question, I wouldn't grunt at him. I'd mentor him. Yeah. Or maybe if that old man is grunting at me, I actually listen and understand why he's boy, cause you asked him that same question three times. So anyway, anything, what Phil, I feel like you got something else to say. I, I'm really digging your vibe, dude. I can't wait to come to carry and meet you. I'm gonna come over there and take Kelsey to lunch. [Phil Ubinger] Yeah. I'm there. I just come on upstairs. Upstairs to the east side. The Phil side. The Phil side. Yeah. Uh, no, I, I'm, I'm all talked out. I think. You're all talked out. [Tonnika Haynes] How often do you guys get taught to each other now? [Hunter Jackson] Oh, probably every few months. Something along the lines. Oh, but we usually text, uh, every few weeks, usually. [Phil Ubinger] He'll send me something silly and I'll be like, all right, dude, call me. But yeah, it's good. It's good. [Tonnika Haynes] I really enjoyed you guys taking time out of your Saturday to talk to me. Downshift with Tanika is where we slow down long enough to have real conversations hosted by myself, second generation shop owner, Tanika Haynes. This goes beyond your car count, your KPIs. We want to talk about leadership, legacy, mindset, and the messy, beautiful journey of building something that lasts. You will hear stories from shop owners, technicians, and other industry leaders who are figuring it all out by themselves in real time. This is a space for growth, tough love, laughter, and leveling up.