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How to Speak Up When You Feel Awkward—and Build Trust with Henna Pryor · Loud & Lifted

0:00
You know that moment when you have something
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to say in a meeting but you start doing the math
0:04
in your head? What if it comes out wrong? What
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if everyone looks at me? So you say nothing at
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all. We've all been there. Welcome to Loud and
0:13
Lifted. I'm Betsy Hamm. And my guest today is
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Henna Pryor. Henna is a workplace performance
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expert, executive coach, and keynote speaker
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who helps people take bigger risks and communicate
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more effectively at work. She's also the author
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of Good Awkward and her new book, The Signal
0:30
Gap. Hanna has a take on awkwardness that I haven't
0:33
heard before. So we get into that and we also
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talk about how to get through those moments instead
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of letting them make our decisions for us. Then
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we get into the question at the heart of her
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new book. Once you do speak up, is your message
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landing the way you think it is? And let me tell
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you, one of her examples made me rethink a very
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common work email. So let's get into it. Welcome
0:57
to Loud and Lifted. Henna, thank you so much
0:59
for being here. Thank you for having me. I feel
1:02
like we've been dancing around each other all
1:04
summer, so I'm glad we finally did it. I know.
1:06
I'm so excited for this conversation. And you've
1:08
been busy, which we're going to get into why
1:10
you have been extra busy. But this is a great
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topic that I know is definitely going to resonate
1:14
with our listeners, because we're going to use
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one of my favorite words. We're just going to
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actually start with is the word. awkward. And
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you talk about awkward being a good thing. And,
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you know, on this podcast, we have talked a lot
1:26
about confidence and getting the reps in and
1:28
growing and all those sort of buzzwords, right,
1:31
that we hear a lot. But you come at this from
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a different angle. So let's start with, like,
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the basic of the definition. Like, what is good
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awkward? Yeah. So let me actually start by defining
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the word awkward, because I think sometimes people
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hear about this and they're like, Oh, are we
1:44
talking about get comfortable getting uncomfortable?
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It is much more specific than that. So what is
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the emotion of awkwardness? It is a social emotion
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of discomfort. So, yes, there is discomfort,
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but it is a social emotion, meaning you don't
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feel awkward typically when you're by yourself.
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You mispronounce somebody's name, you trip over
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your own two feet, but you're home alone. You
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might be like silly me, but you don't typically
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feel overcome by awkwardness. It happens in social
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settings. So some of the cousins in this world
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are awkwardness, embarrassment, cringe, as the
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teenagers like to say. These are emotions that
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happen in social settings. The other thing that
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I want to emphasize around this word is that
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it is an emotion. Awkwardness by definition is
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an emotion. And in some grammatical uses, it's
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an adjective. But it is not a definitive and
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objective state, meaning when someone says, I
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am awkward, there is no such thing as a factually
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awkward person. You are choosing to define yourself
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as such. So what you're actually saying in so
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many words is I feel incredibly awkward often,
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right? I feel awkward with some level of frequency,
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but that's a huge distinction to make early on
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because it is not a permanent trait. it is a
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transient state. And just by reframing that in
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our minds, it can make it a little bit easier
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to get through it. So short answer to what is
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good awkward. Bad awkward is when we let that
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emotion get the best of us, right? Where we don't
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take risks, we don't open our mouth, we don't
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raise our hand, we don't ask for the raise, we
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don't put ourselves out there. Good awkward.
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means understanding that this emotion is universal.
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It is something that is going to be frequent
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if change is going to be part of the equation
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with hello, look around. It's not going anywhere.
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If you plan to have any transitions in your life,
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if you plan to reach for goals, if you plan to
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do anything worth a dang, you need to get good
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at this emotion. And that is where we start talking
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about good awkward. I love that definition. I've
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never heard it positioned that way. And you're
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right. We'll be like, oh, I'm so awkward. Maybe
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it's in a social setting or whatever. But I love
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that definition. And it's good to feel awkward
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because you're uncomfortable. And I don't know,
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uncomfortable is almost overused, right? We're
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uncomfortable with a lot of things. And sometimes
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you avoid being uncomfortable, rightfully so.
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And sometimes you should lean into it. So I like
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that perspective. So let's talk about some of
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those times when people do feel cringy or that
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good awkward and it's good. It's okay. Yeah.
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I think, you know, ultimately there's two formats
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that it takes. The one is in moments that are
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completely unexpected. So you're walking down
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the sidewalk, you trip over your own two feet.
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You weren't exactly planning that, right? So
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that becomes a moment of, oh boy, I'm embarrassed
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because The social norm is that I should know
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how to walk down the street. I accidentally violated
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a social norm, right? The emotion of awkwardness
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has a lot to do with what we deem social norms.
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The other version, and I think where it would
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be useful to spend time for your community, is
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those planned moments of I'm going to try something.
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I'm going to take a risk. I'm going to put my
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hand up. And I don't quite know how it's going
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to be received. It's in those moments that we
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can especially work on our conditioning, our
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strategy. So again, in the workforce, it could
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be trying to pitch yourself to a brand new client
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with whom you have zero clout. You don't know
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how it's going to go. It could be advocating
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for a bigger promotion. It could be advocating
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for a salary. All of these conversations can
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feel incredibly awkward. especially on a continuum.
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If you're someone who grew up in a household
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where money wasn't talked about, for you, having
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the money conversation is going to feel disproportionately
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awkward to someone who maybe those conversations
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were more present and more tolerated. So what
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makes people feel that way really depends on
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their conditioning, but that's where we start,
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is we start to look back at our stories and our
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conditioning. So there's a good chance that we
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all have felt awkward probably at least once
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this week, right? Like chances are so when that
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happens and let's let's use the professional
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situation of you know, like we want to present
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in a meeting or we want to talk up speak up in
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a meeting because we usually have taken like
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the backseat and we have that Awkward feeling.
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What do we do about that? Mm -hmm. So again awkwardness
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lives largely in uncertainty right? In these
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unexpected. So, I did something, I tried something,
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and the response that came or the moment that
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followed wasn't exactly, you know, whether I
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was conscious of it or not. It wasn't what my
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brain expected or wanted. So, I either wanted,
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you know, a boisterous response and instead I
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got silence, right? I expected that they would
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agree with me. Instead, they contradicted what
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I said, right? It's something went the other
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way. A few things are happening very, very quickly.
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But the first is I just want us to understand
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what does that moment represent? For many of
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us, we actually have a very incorrect story about
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what's happening in that moment. So I don't want
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to sugarcoat it. Is someone potentially looking
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at you in that moment for a beat? Sure. We're
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social creatures. They would almost be rude if
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they weren't. But they are not harping on it.
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or obsessing over it nearly the way that we think
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they are. So that moment in our minds tends to
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linger. We're thinking about it in the next meeting
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we're in. We're thinking about it in the shower
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that night. We're still thinking about it while
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we're making dinner. For that person, that moment
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has passed. So there's various psychological
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phenomena. One of the popular one is Elliot Aronson.
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He discovered the spotlight effect, which is
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we think people are looking at us, staring at
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us much more intensely. than they actually are,
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as though there's a giant spotlight on us. They
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might be for a moment, but they've honestly turned
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it back on themselves relatively quickly, right?
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That's usually the case. The other is the illusion
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of transparency, which is when we feel embarrassed
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or awkward about something, even if we don't
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have the physical signs. Yes, some people get
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a little red, maybe a little bit warm, sweaty,
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but we think, oh my God, people can see that
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I'm internally melting. Right? I'm dying right
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now. This is going to be horrible. Most people
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can't actually see through you that easily. So
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if you have a strategy to sort of, you know,
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either use some humor or name the awkwardness,
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we can talk about strategies. It's actually far
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easier to move through it than we think. And
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it's the person who has a strategy to move through
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it quickly. That's the person we actually deem
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the confident one. Confident people make mistakes
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all the time. They just have a really fast comeback
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rate. Their comeback rate is very, very quick.
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Their recovery rate is very, very quick. And
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we look at that person like, oh, they're confident.
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They're unflappable. Oh, they're flapped. They
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just came back. Came back quickly. Right. I like
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that. So let's talk about those strategies in
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a second, but I want to back up to is there anything
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we can do to prepare to feel less awkward or
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do you think it's just life, right? Like it's
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going to happen. You're going to feel uncomfortable
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in certain situations. Yeah. So on the preparation,
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the prescription is simple, but people won't
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want to do it. But I'm going to tell you anyway,
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the prescription is social pushups before you
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need them. Social muscle is a muscle. It can
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atrophy. Our team did a research study. You can
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download it for free at socialmusclereport .com.
9:09
We did a research study on working Americans
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and social muscle in the workplace. One in three
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working Americans would rather clean a toilet
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than ask for help at work. Wild. It is completely
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wild because we feel awkward. We worry that,
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oh, they're going to think I'm incompetent. They're
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going to think I don't know what I'm doing. It's
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all these things that are, you know, really modern
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day conundrums. And a lot of it has to do with
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the system. So I always tell people, listen,
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this isn't about extroversion, introversion.
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Yes, there's a component of that. But even extroverted
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people, I'm pretty 100 % extroverted. Yeah, I
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feel awkward with the best of them. This is not
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something for introverts. But what we have to
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realize is that the system right now is optimized
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to buff away friction, to buff away social mishaps.
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If I wanted to, Betsy, today, today, if I wasn't
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talking to you right now, if I wanted to, I could
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order my lunch on DoorDash. I could get my groceries
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on Instacart. I could, you know, Slack DM my
10:12
teammates. I have been married 20 years, but
10:14
I swipe whatever direction and go get a date,
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right? We don't actually have to physically talk
10:20
to someone where there could be a, oh, I'm sorry.
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I didn't mean to interrupt you. What did you
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say your name was again? Like, we barely have
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to do that. And so because we're not getting
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practice in those little moments, those big conversations
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like salary advocacy, promotion, you know, would
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you consider working with me? Let me make an
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offer to you. They feel gigantic in the level
10:42
of awkwardness. So how do we prepare? Again,
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silly little things like, you know, take the
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long way in the grocery store and chat up the
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cashier if there's nobody behind you. Take your
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headphones out from time to time in the coffee
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shop and, you know, see if you can strike up
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a conversation. It's those small practice moments
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that we've all been eliminated. that make it
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hard for us to tolerate those bigger moments
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where ambiguity is likely. Oh, that makes so
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much sense. And how about virtual world? How
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does that play into just with work with so many
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people being remote or just on Teams meetings
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or Zooms meetings? Has that impacted this as
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well? For sure. Because again, when we're in
11:18
proximity with each other, I would say the only,
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not the only, but one of the common virtual awkward
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moments, it seems to be the one that happens
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on repeat, is when you've got a group and people
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start talking over each other, right? And you're
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like, oh, I'm sorry, go ahead. Oh, I'm sorry,
11:31
go ahead, right? That's kind of the extent of
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what we would call like the little dance that
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we would do in person. But it's not the same,
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you know, in person, it turns into, oh, I totally
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misunderstood what you said. Oh, I, you know,
11:43
with that thing you said in the meeting, I wrote
11:45
it down incorrectly. We just don't have that
11:47
hallway chatter. We lost our hallway read. So
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virtually, what I tell people is we actually
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have to build this in. Awkwardness has also felt
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like a heightened emotion because We don't see
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other people tripping over themselves. We don't
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see other people getting it wrong. We're doing
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all of these conversations in silos. We don't
12:07
overhear it anymore. So it feels like it's just
12:10
us. It feels like I'm the only one stepping in
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it. I'm the only one who feels mortified that
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I didn't have that answer right at my fingertips.
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When we have a virtual meeting, we can create
12:21
space for that. So I tell executives and teams,
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hey, at the five minutes at the start of the
12:25
meeting, please you know, just spend a couple
12:28
minutes sharing cracked egg stories where everyone
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goes around and to share one example of a cracked
12:34
egg. That's a time that they messed up. They
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made a mistake. They stepped in it and people
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are like, well, why do we want to start like
12:40
that? Because first of all, it normalizes that
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this is what's happening even when we don't see
12:46
each other doing it. But second of all, research
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suggests that when we start a meeting with something
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like that, the rest of the ideas that follow
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in that meeting are more creative. They're more
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generative. They're more, you know, interesting
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because we've sort of let our guard down right
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at the beginning. And so there's so many reasons
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that exercises like this now need to be baked
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into the fabric of virtual teams. I've never
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heard that term cracked egg. When you first said
13:11
that, I'm like thinking, what the heck is a cracked
13:12
egg? But that makes sense. I love that. And I
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can totally see that. That just takes the, I
13:17
don't want to say the seriousness out of the
13:18
room, but it is. Some people come in and you're,
13:20
you know, going from one meeting to the next
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and just go, go, go. It's like taking people
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outside of their like, just constant routine
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and having to think a little differently and
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letting their guard down. I love that so much.
13:30
Exactly. Pattern interrupt, right? Love it. Okay.
13:33
So we have been in a situation and we feel awkward
13:36
because we messed up what we were saying or didn't
13:39
say the right thing and now we're sitting there,
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you know, cringing about our behavior. So what
13:43
do we do to recover? Maybe we can fix it in that
13:46
moment and maybe not, but how do we move forward
13:49
after we have that cringe moment? Yeah. I mean,
13:52
it depends on the severity of the cringe, right?
13:55
Not every awkward moment is designed equally.
13:57
I would say depending on size, there's two different
14:00
moves or two different roads that you can take.
14:02
So for something that's small, I think speed
14:05
and humor tend to be damage control, right? So
14:09
if it's a small thing, you don't need to make
14:11
it a big thing. It's just that quick response
14:14
and a little bit of humor. So one of my favorite
14:16
examples in the book is Sarah Blakely, when she
14:19
was early with Spanx, she told a UK reporter
14:22
about the product and she was saying that Spanx
14:25
smooths your fanny before anyone explained to
14:29
her what that word fanny actually means in the
14:33
UK. It means, let's just say a different body
14:38
part in the UK. So of course, That could be something
14:43
that would make some people go, I can't recover
14:45
from this. I've lost focus entirely, but she
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kept going. She's very good at just continuing
14:52
and taking the moment, owning it and keep going.
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Her comeback rate is higher than a lot of people
14:56
I've seen. She is playful and she kind of sometimes
14:59
says what she thinks without thinking it through,
15:01
but she comes back really quickly. for a real
15:05
misfire where the awkwardness, you know, may
15:07
have been a little bit higher stakes. You know,
15:10
someone feels a little bit hurt by it, or they
15:12
feel like it was a little bit too far. This is
15:14
where, you know, this is a misfire and requires
15:17
repair, right? This requires naming it very quickly
15:20
saying, you know, I'm sorry, this is an awkward
15:24
situation that I've created. I noticed it. I
15:27
noticed the temperature in the room change. You
15:29
know, let me address it now and what I meant
15:31
by that. So this is kind of like admitting where
15:32
your first signal felt short, sending a corrected
15:35
signal. But in most cases, I like to think that
15:40
awkwardness tends to sit on the side of those
15:42
smaller situations. The bigger ones where it's,
15:46
you know, potentially hurt or conflict, those
15:48
require a slightly different set of skills with
15:50
awkwardness in particular, usually a little bit
15:53
of ownership, usually a quick response and humor
15:56
go a long way. The last thing I would just add
15:58
is naming it. Ironically, the avoidance of awkwardness
16:02
increases awkwardness. Totally agree with that.
16:04
The longer you sit in it, you're like, it's just
16:06
getting worse. So the first person to say, well,
16:09
this is a bit awkward. Oh, that was a bit embarrassing.
16:12
It tends to like take the balloon down and just
16:16
take that sting out of the moment. and allow
16:18
us all to laugh, all of our shoulders drop, and
16:20
we can move on. It's a very human thing that
16:22
we can all agree has happened to all of us. So
16:25
it kind of just brings it back to the moment.
16:27
Well, and especially if you're the person in
16:28
the room who didn't do that, right? You're sitting
16:29
there, you feel awkward for that person a lot
16:32
of times. You're like, oh, I feel bad. But if
16:34
they do just acknowledge it, move on, whatever,
16:36
it does sort of help to like, okay, they're going
16:38
to be okay. They're going to keep moving on.
16:40
You know, it's not going to derail their entire
16:42
day, even if it is slightly to themselves. But
16:45
yeah, and I'm all for being authentic, right?
16:48
And I've gotten positive feedback, whether I'm
16:50
speaking at an event and I mess up and I do something,
16:52
you know, just being quick to call it out and
16:56
sort of joke about it and move on. And then I
16:57
just think it makes people feel so much more
16:59
comfortable. Like, well, yes, guess what? We're
17:01
all human. We all have awkward moments. We all
17:03
do things and we're like, oh crap, I can't believe
17:04
I did that, said that, whatever. Tripp, spill
17:07
coffee. I'm a big coffee spiller, which is awkward
17:09
if you're... doing that in a meeting. But yeah,
17:12
it's just we're all human. We're going to have
17:14
those moments. So just being real about it and
17:16
moving on, I think, is really great advice. And
17:19
one of those things that is always easier said
17:21
than done, I think, but it's if you're kind of
17:23
thinking about it when you're not in that situation,
17:25
you can help to mentally prepare for when it
17:28
happens. Yeah. Can I share an example that I
17:30
think you'll like? Absolutely. Maybe you know
17:32
it already, but you know, Simon Sinek has a story
17:35
that he tells about he was giving a keynote and
17:37
for whatever reason, in the middle of it, he
17:40
just blanked. Completely blanked on what he was
17:43
going to say next. And so he decided in that
17:47
moment to literally look at the audience and
17:48
go, I just, my mind just went completely blank.
17:53
What was I just saying right before this? Somebody
17:57
in the audience shouted out, you know, you were
17:58
just talking about this and this. And he's like,
18:00
ah, yes. Okay. Thank you. And kept going. This
18:04
was one of his highest ratings he's ever gotten
18:08
on a keynote. Now, what's the takeaway from this?
18:11
Some people hear stuff like this and, you know,
18:12
actually there's a study about, you know, spilling
18:14
coffee that Elliot Aronson's team did and how
18:16
it was considered relatable. So people are like,
18:18
well, should I, you know, should I purposely
18:20
put a blender in there? No, it doesn't work when
18:23
you fabricate it. The whole point is that when
18:26
one of those moments inevitably occurs, which,
18:29
hi, you're human, it will, that you just learn
18:31
how to own it with grace. But today, especially,
18:34
and this ties a lot to the second book, polish
18:37
or over polish has gotten so cheap that polish
18:42
has actually started to feel suspicious. Sure.
18:44
So more than ever, we are putting more outsize
18:48
value on the person who is giving us all of this
18:52
stuff without sanding and smoothing away the
18:54
edges. We appreciate it. even more than we did
18:56
before. Right. When it feels real and relatable
18:59
versus super polished or heck AI created at this
19:02
point, whatever. Correct. It's funny when you
19:04
were saying about Simon, it made me think too,
19:05
and maybe because one of our recent episodes
19:07
is about perimenopause, but I can't tell you
19:09
how many conversations I've had in the last,
19:12
I don't know, let's say year, where a woman is
19:14
talking and she has that blank perimenopause
19:17
moment where she forgets the word and now… Just
19:19
call it out, especially if it's to other women.
19:21
And I don't know if it's uncomfortable. Oh my
19:22
God, I'm totally having a parabenopause moment.
19:24
Like, and then they move on, right? Like, but
19:25
it's otherwise you do, you sit there and you
19:28
feel awkward when we have that moment of forgetting
19:31
a word or whatever. So I can totally relate to
19:34
that. So I love that. I mean, I don't love forgetting
19:36
words, but I love that. Sure. Yeah. I'm with
19:39
you. Be real about that. So the good awkward
19:42
is really helping us to be brave enough to show
19:44
up, right? But let's switch a little bit or kind
19:47
of evolve into your latest book, which is right
19:50
about now the time is episode the signal gap.
19:53
So tell us what that is really as this next layer.
19:56
Oh my gosh, I'm so excited about this book. So
19:58
it's called the signal gap, how to boost believability
20:01
and influence in the age of doubt. And I know,
20:06
you know, a lot of your listeners are women,
20:07
although you've got a mixed bag and a lot of
20:09
women, you know, all of us are looking for an
20:11
edge on how do we accelerate that building of
20:15
influence, that building of trust, whether we're
20:17
using it for sales, leadership, our own self
20:19
-advocacy, communication with trying to get an
20:22
outcome, that is influence. We are trying to
20:24
get someone to do something, and that is harder
20:27
than ever. So I'm just going to slightly brag
20:30
out of the gate. I am so grateful for this book
20:32
to have interviewed some of the most brilliant
20:34
thinkers in the influence and trust space, Seth
20:37
Godin, Daniel Pink, Adam Grant, and then some
20:39
of the boss women, Dory Clark, Tasha Yurik. folks
20:42
that have studied this stuff their whole lives.
20:45
And the part that I'm most excited about is I
20:47
approached all of those people with this one
20:49
idea of everything you have ever taught us feels
20:52
correct. And I also fear is incomplete in this
20:56
moment in time that the world has changed so
20:59
much. And I set out to sort of finish that sentence
21:02
because the world now is so skeptical. Yep. We
21:06
do not trust by default. So a good awkward helps
21:09
you, you know, find the courage, find that confidence
21:12
to have the conversation. You've gotten yourself
21:14
into the room. The signal gap now addresses ensuring
21:19
that what we communicate and what we intend to
21:22
communicate actually lands with an increasingly
21:26
skeptical, distrustful, I don't know whether
21:29
to believe this or not, audience. And so that's
21:32
now the next turn of the wheel. Oh my gosh, that's
21:35
so important. And you know, influence is one
21:37
of those things where I think sometimes people
21:38
think, well, I'm not in leadership or I'm not
21:40
in sales or marketing. I don't need to be influential.
21:43
No, you need to be influential whether you're
21:45
a coordinator or an intern in your day to day,
21:48
professionally and personally, right? Like that's
21:50
just how we, so how do we even start with that,
21:54
right? That's such a big undertaking. How do
21:56
we start to grow that? Yeah. So first thing,
22:00
you know, in the spirit of this book, I would
22:01
say the one piece of awareness that's a fundamental
22:03
shift that everyone just needs to accept is that
22:06
we have shifted from what used to be trust, then
22:11
verify, to verify, then trust. So many years,
22:16
if you've worked in any sort of business context,
22:18
whatever level you're at, you probably heard
22:20
this expression, trust, then verify, which essentially
22:22
says, you know, humans should trust each other
22:25
unless They give us a reason not to. So we meet
22:28
someone, we generally give them the benefit of
22:30
the doubt. If something smells a little off or
22:34
seems a little fishy, then maybe we'll go searching.
22:38
That is no longer the case. The dynamic has shifted.
22:41
We verify then trust. We now live in what I call
22:44
the verification era. So I'll prove this to you.
22:47
If you were to be sold a car, And would you go
22:51
blind to the dealership and then say, well, only
22:54
if something feels weird, am I going to go Google
22:56
this later? If you had a friend who was going
22:59
on a first date and didn't Google that person
23:01
first, you'd say, are you trying to be murdered
23:05
in the restaurant? This has become our standard
23:07
behavior. We will do this before we interact
23:10
with someone. We will do this while they're talking
23:13
on our phones. We'll start Googling them. mid
23:17
-sentence. So it used to be that we would extend
23:19
benefit of the doubt first. Now we are in this
23:21
verification era and that's a result of, you
23:24
know, eight different shifts that I talked about
23:25
in the book. But essentially the learning here
23:28
is that it used to be to be influential. There
23:31
was a few things that people were looking for.
23:32
They were looking for clarity. They were looking
23:35
for competence and they were looking for confidence,
23:38
right? Some of your presence. Those three things
23:42
are table stakes now. Everybody needs those minimum,
23:47
but they are table stakes now. Now, what people
23:50
are also looking for is congruence. Congruence
23:53
across four different layers that I talk about,
23:56
but congruence simply means that what you say,
24:01
what you mean to say, your intention underneath
24:03
of it, and what the verifying audience actually
24:07
receives, are all pointing in the same direction.
24:12
And there's a lot of spaces in the modern day
24:14
climate that we live in where even for the highest
24:16
intent person, and this new book is written for
24:18
the high intent person, where that's breaking
24:21
and people don't even realize it. So it's been
24:24
really fun watching head explosions happen as
24:27
they learn where it's breaking. Is there a certain
24:29
part, is like there's consistently breaking at
24:31
the same part? Well, it's breaking across all
24:34
of the layers. There's four layers, but the most
24:37
popular ones for discussion have been communication
24:40
congruence and belief congruence. I'll just give
24:43
you a very simple example of each of them. For
24:46
the first one, again, I know you work with a
24:47
lot of females in business. Let's just say you
24:51
are advocating for a promotion for yourself,
24:54
and you write your boss a multi -paragraph, very
24:59
detailed, researched impassioned email making
25:04
a case for why you've earned this position or
25:07
this promotion, right? Okay. In detail. You put
25:10
a lot of effort into it. Probably took you 30
25:12
minutes to an hour minimum to put this thing
25:14
together. Your boss is an executive at a big
25:17
company. You get a response from your boss with
25:21
a detailed responding to each of your bullet
25:23
points, super thoughtful, super personalized,
25:27
eight minutes later. So Betsy, I'm just, I'm
25:30
going to ask you. What would be your immediate
25:32
reaction to that? I would assume that they did
25:35
not write it. Right. AI. Yeah. Right? Yeah. You,
25:39
ChatGBT wrote this, Claude wrote this. Now, here's
25:42
the thing. People are like, oh, because it sounded
25:44
like AI. You know what? Let's put that aside.
25:46
No. If they really have set their AI up, well,
25:48
maybe not. Probably doesn't sound like AI anymore.
25:52
But our brains, before we can realize that we're
25:54
doing it or not, we are searching for patterns.
25:57
We are searching endlessly for patterns. So let's
25:59
think about this for a second. So your boss,
26:01
who's the executive of a large company, you're
26:03
telling me with the schedule that they normally
26:05
have going in and out of meetings, not only in
26:09
eight minutes read this very detailed email where
26:12
you put all of these different things in there
26:14
that you would research. Not only do they read
26:16
it in eight minutes, they then had the time to
26:18
consider what you wrote and put together a detailed
26:21
response to each point in eight minutes. You're
26:23
like, no way. The time stamp. gave it away. So
26:28
here's the thing. People are like, well, is that
26:31
wrong? The person felt slighted. They felt like
26:35
they didn't care. So here's what they need to
26:38
do instead. Was the boss a low intent person?
26:40
Were they a jerk? Absolutely not. The boss was
26:43
a high intent person that was optimizing for
26:46
something else. They were optimizing for speed.
26:50
They were optimizing for, I like this employee.
26:52
I don't want to leave them hanging. I want to
26:55
respond to them quickly, right? There was no
26:57
low intent here. Sure. But the intent didn't
27:00
matter. It created a believability break. Right.
27:02
It created a trust break. So instead, they could
27:04
have either gone old school and said, hey, received,
27:08
but I am in and out of meetings for the next
27:10
five hours. Likely won't look at this till tomorrow,
27:13
right? But just wanted to let you know I saw
27:14
it. Or, hey, Read this quickly before I ran into
27:19
my next meeting and I didn't want to leave you
27:21
hanging. So just full transparency I used AI
27:23
to help me organize my thoughts. Yeah, but the
27:27
thoughts are all mine Let's find time to discuss
27:30
next week, right? Either of those would have
27:33
kept believability intact. Yep Examples like
27:36
that abound but that's Yeah. And it's funny,
27:39
I was working with a company and their CEO was
27:43
very into AI and was not one to write long emails
27:46
or elaborate responses. And suddenly everything
27:49
became very lengthy and it just felt so cold.
27:51
And even as like an outside consultant, like
27:54
I could see his team getting so visibly upset
27:56
because it's like, well, he doesn't care. He's
27:58
not thinking, right? And it was like, he thought
28:00
he was optimizing his time, but it was like,
28:03
and let's be honest, sometimes they didn't even
28:04
make sense, but it was kind of like the whole
28:05
point of like, He doesn't care. He can't take
28:08
five minutes to come walk down the hall and talk
28:10
about this. So it's that impact that that's having
28:13
on the person. There's not a relationship. And
28:16
you start to lose that credibility, which ultimately
28:18
impacts influence no matter what your title is.
28:20
Yeah. I love, Betsy, that you said that because
28:21
these are those subtle things that our brain...
28:25
may pick up unconsciously, but in many cases,
28:28
our gut picks up on it before our brain does.
28:30
So you're like, this person normally writes three
28:32
-sentence emails. Now they're writing three -paragraph
28:34
emails, right? For some people, they see that
28:38
conscious and their logical brain grabs it. For
28:40
others, they don't even realize that that's what
28:43
changed. They just know that something did, and
28:46
this feels icky now, right? So it's often like,
28:49
it's not our gut, it's actually the signals.
28:51
I mean, it's maybe in part gut, but what I'm
28:53
setting out to help people understand in the
28:55
book is a lot of this thing we say is gut, something
28:58
feels off. Vibes are weird, right? There's actually
29:03
a congruence issue. There's an incongruence across
29:06
one of these four layers. And so part of what
29:07
I want people to understand is this is happening.
29:10
Let's give language to it. So either you can
29:12
identify it in others, but more importantly,
29:14
catch yourself in spots that you may not even
29:16
realize you're doing it. Oh, so true. So how
29:20
do we be more intentional about that, right?
29:22
Like almost like an audit of ourselves because
29:24
we all probably have those times or moments where
29:26
we can be better. So where do we even start with
29:29
that? Yeah. So again, the prescriptions vary
29:31
depending on which layer of congruence we're
29:33
talking about. But let's say we're talking about
29:35
communication in the example that we just gave.
29:37
You know, there is a self -audit that we need
29:39
to do. Typically, You know, people say, well,
29:42
does this mean, you know, mean what you say,
29:44
say what you mean? No, it's not that. Again,
29:46
it's not that we're trying to be dishonest. It's
29:49
understanding that the level of clarity required
29:52
now for people to not assign intent to you is
29:56
even more than it needs to be. So the biggest
29:58
solution to the communication congruence is to
30:01
name your intent to actually upfront, say. you
30:05
know, hey, I'm going to be using AI to help me
30:07
write this email. You know what, we're going
30:09
to have this meeting and I just want to let you
30:11
know upfront that I'm going to lead with all
30:14
the parts of this project that are going to be
30:16
really hard on us because otherwise my fear is
30:19
I'm going to want to bury it because that feels
30:21
easier for me. Right? It's that level of, you
30:25
know, intent naming upfront about what are we
30:27
doing, why we're doing it, not smuggling under
30:30
corporate comfortable language, right? There
30:33
used to be so much, you know, for many years,
30:36
vague was actually a form of strategic politeness,
30:40
right? You know, we'll get back to you when we
30:42
know something. That felt like strategic politeness.
30:47
Today, We don't have the ambiguity tolerance.
30:50
Our door dash tells us it's going to be here
30:51
between, you know, 332 and 335, right? We don't
30:55
have the tolerance for, well, we'll let you know
30:58
whenever. So what we are looking for people to
31:01
say to us now is some version of, you know, I
31:06
am uncomfortable with the fact that I don't have
31:08
an answer for you right now. I'm going to have
31:10
to share some news that's going to probably land
31:12
a little bit more challenging than I want it
31:15
to. And I'm going to deliver it the best I can,
31:16
even if my words aren't perfect. But I want to
31:19
let you know that this is my intent, right? This
31:20
is what I'm expecting. People are looking for
31:22
that. It used to be considered radical transparency.
31:26
Now it's what people are looking for as a baseline.
31:29
And that is a shift. And do we ask people we
31:34
work with or our team for feedback on this, like
31:36
how we're landing, like how do we do that? How
31:39
do we get sort of feedback of how we're showing
31:41
up or how our influence really is? Yeah, I think
31:44
it's a courageous thing to ask, but I love it
31:46
when people ask each other, like how am I coming
31:49
across, what are my signals saying that I'm not?
31:52
I'll just give you a very easy example. I have
31:55
a good friend who I know has a very big heart,
31:59
okay? We have communicated. you know, together
32:01
as peers, as colleagues for many years. And sometimes
32:04
I will send an email about a project that we're
32:07
working on together, and it'll have, you know,
32:08
a deck or an outline, something I've worked hard
32:10
on. Sure. And within two minutes, I get a looks
32:15
great, thanks. And so again, depending on the
32:19
relationship, I wouldn't be able to say that
32:21
to somebody who was a loose colleague. But because
32:23
this person's not a loose colleague, it's someone
32:25
with whom I've built trust, I say, hey, that
32:27
actually felt crappy. right? I know that your
32:32
intention was good, but there's no way you looked
32:35
at it. So I would rather you not pretend, right?
32:40
I would rather you not pretend that you opened
32:42
it, that you read through it, and it looks great.
32:44
Just don't respond at all before you kind of
32:48
give me this, this platitude. And he was like,
32:51
oh, oh my God, right? So again, not low intent.
32:57
Sure. Busy, busy person. who is trying to fire
33:00
off, but these are those small, you know, that's,
33:02
I hate to be cliche, but like death by a thousand
33:04
paper cuts that make us stop believing a person
33:08
over time. And this is where, you know, one of
33:11
the huge theses of the new book is that influence
33:13
and trust today live and die on one hinge. And
33:16
that's believability. If we don't believe you,
33:21
we won't be influenced by you. And we definitely
33:24
won't trust you. We have to make sure skepticism
33:27
is addressed first. That is that is so that is
33:31
so true and that's so good and that influences
33:33
You know a team and their motivation or their
33:36
engagement or their their willingness to Give
33:39
a shit. You know, whatever it is, it has a pretty
33:41
big impact on how your team ultimately shows
33:44
up. So I think sometimes there's this confusion
33:46
that I have influence or credibility because
33:49
I'm in a certain position, right? Like, oh, well,
33:51
I'm the director of the department. Of course
33:52
I have influence. And it's not about the title.
33:56
I think there's a total misconception on the
33:58
title piece. You could be the CEO. Heck, you
34:00
could be the president. And you might not have
34:02
influence, right? It's not always title related.
34:06
And some of that goes back to the relationship.
34:08
Absolutely. You know, what I think is interesting
34:10
too, with both of these topics, they're so good
34:13
and I love how they go together, but are very
34:15
different. But if you had to like boil it down,
34:19
it seems like so much of that is about being
34:21
genuine and authentic, right? Like in how you're
34:25
showing up and again, we're human, we're gonna
34:26
mess up, we're gonna do things wrong, but it's
34:28
being genuine of how you're showing up and then
34:30
how you... fix it when you don't do it right.
34:33
Yeah, so it's funny that you say that. One of
34:35
the distinctions I needed to make early in the
34:37
book is how is congruence different than authenticity?
34:42
Oh. And different than consistency. So let's
34:45
just, you know, I'm going to use not necessarily
34:47
the definitions in the book, but my own just
34:49
in my brain definitions. You know, consistency
34:50
is doing something when, you know, on the rhythm
34:54
in which you say you're going to do it, right?
34:55
That's being consistent. Authenticity has about
34:58
a thousand different definitions. But for the
35:00
purposes of this, let's say showing up as your
35:03
fully expressed self in the room with which it
35:06
feels. you know, safe to do so, right? So an
35:09
authentic version of you, I believe, can be contextual.
35:12
A personal authentic version of you, a professional
35:14
authentic version of you. I don't think any of
35:16
those versions are liars. It's just contextual.
35:19
Congruence is a little bit more nuanced in that
35:22
it has less to do with just showing up fully
35:24
expressed, but more to do with showing up with
35:28
all of the parts, even when they're uncomfortable,
35:32
because they are reality. Because they are true.
35:36
Because what is interesting in this moment right
35:39
now is, let's just quickly talk about the generational
35:41
thing. Again, this isn't just a generational
35:43
issue, but I always like to absolve more senior
35:46
leaders when I push back on them about some of
35:49
this stuff and they're like, really? You know,
35:50
we shouldn't be just keeping the cool. You know,
35:53
don't we need to be the even keel, the flight
35:55
attendant who is not making people worry? And
35:58
I say, listen, I'm not saying fly off the handle.
36:00
That would not be a good look. But if the company
36:02
is in turmoil, If people are being laid off,
36:06
if people are struggling and they are dealing
36:08
with big emotions and you come in, they're going,
36:10
we are going through a right sizing right now.
36:13
And some of this transitioning is going to feel
36:15
difficult, but we will come out the other side.
36:18
That was something many people of a certain generation
36:21
were trained to do. They were rewarded to be
36:24
unflappable in that moment. So there's nothing,
36:27
they didn't do anything wrong. That was their
36:28
training. The environment though has changed
36:32
and the expectation of a millennial employee,
36:35
a Gen Z employee, is that you don't go down into
36:39
the despair with them, but that you acknowledge
36:42
the temperature of the room. So I always like
36:45
to use the analogy of, if I'm in the hospital
36:47
getting surgery, I don't want the surgeon to
36:48
be like, yeah, I'm nervous too. This is really
36:51
scary. Heck no, I would be running out of there.
36:54
But I do want them to say, It's really natural,
36:57
Henna, to feel nervous about this surgery, but
36:59
just know it's one that we've done 100 times
37:02
before, and we are well equipped to handle this.
37:05
Makes sense. That's just honest. That's just
37:08
honest, but you're building trust. But that's
37:11
more honest than the, it'll be fine, don't worry
37:14
about it, right? Like we want the honesty. And
37:17
so a lot of leaders who were trained on that
37:19
previous thing, when they are that unflappable
37:22
version, There's a whole swath of people now
37:24
who view them as being evasive or being cagey
37:29
or not living in the same reality as they are.
37:33
So there's a real opportunity to bridge those
37:36
gaps now. That's, no, that's a great point. And
37:39
again, it goes back to how it's landing and it's
37:41
going to land differently for everyone. So yeah,
37:43
you don't want to be, you don't want to be fake.
37:45
You don't want to be robotic. You don't want
37:46
to be painting a sunshine and roses picture when
37:49
it's not. So it's how that's landing. That's,
37:51
that's hard. And not to use as, you know, as
37:54
I said about the genuine part, I was like, I
37:55
kind of want to take that back because Part of
37:59
you is thinking how like some people use it as
38:01
an excuse, right? Like the further delivery that
38:04
is is either just short or like maybe it's kind
38:07
of rough or rude Then they're like, well, that's
38:10
just how I am like and they want to use that
38:11
as the excuse So I'm like actually I want to
38:12
take that back because part of that is then people
38:15
use that as an excuse versus no Really? How are
38:17
you landing? How are you? How are you from the
38:19
other side of it? So it is interesting to think
38:22
about the other person's perspective versus how
38:24
you're just trying to put something out there
38:25
Yeah, I think of what you meant Just maybe making
38:28
you feel better about this. I think what you
38:30
meant by genuine, and I'm just going to paraphrase,
38:34
is part of what creates believability right now
38:36
is saying the awkward part out loud. And when
38:40
we deem someone genuine or sincere, they're not
38:44
performing. They're not trying to perform. They're
38:46
not performing past it. Right? They're just staying
38:48
in it. Even when it's uncomfortable, even when
38:51
it's like creating a body, you know, tension
38:54
in them, they stay there anyway. Yeah. So I think,
38:58
you know, your word wasn't wrong. I think it's,
39:00
you know, just interpretation. What does it mean?
39:02
If we are defining genuine that way, then absolutely.
39:05
That makes sense. Thank you for not making me
39:07
feel awkward. Listen, if you do feel awkward,
39:11
great. We're doing great. Hey, I haven't gotten
39:15
to read your book yet, so I'm excited to read
39:16
it. So speaking of, so where can people find
39:19
more information and connect with you? And of
39:21
course, when your book's available. Oh, thank
39:23
you. No. So thesignalgap .com has lots of information
39:26
about the book, but it is available everywhere.
39:28
Books are sold. So Amazon, Barnes and Noble,
39:31
Target .com, Bookshop, all your favorite indie
39:34
store. You know, you can request it anywhere.
39:35
I am Henna Pryor on all the socials. So that's
39:39
H -E -N -N -A, last name Pryor, P -R -Y -O -R,
39:43
although LinkedIn. and Instagram are probably
39:45
my two primary playgrounds. And, you know, I'm
39:49
so passionate about the difference that this
39:51
insight and work is going to make on people's
39:53
communication. So if you grab the book, I am
39:55
not a diva. You know, DM me. I want to hear from
39:58
you directly. Like, how are you applying it?
40:01
What did it make you think about? Who did it
40:02
remind you of? These conversations honestly become
40:06
fuel for creating content in the future. So I
40:09
would love to hear from anyone. No, that's so
40:10
great. And it's one of those things when you
40:12
start to talk about it, it's like, OK, it can
40:13
feel overwhelming. But to me, it's always like,
40:15
OK, let's acknowledge it. Let's understand what
40:17
it is. And then slowly, you're just going to
40:19
make changes. Or you're going to catch yourself
40:20
in that situation or the next time you feel awkward
40:23
and be like, oh, I'm OK. I'm going to get through
40:24
this. And this is how I'm going to get through
40:26
it. So I love that you even open up the doors
40:28
to these conversations. It's great. And I can't
40:30
wait to read the tips and the strategies of how
40:33
to overcome it for sure or improve it. So thank
40:35
you so much for being here. Of course, thank
40:37
you for having me. OK, I definitely have sent
40:41
the looks great thanks email when I was moving
40:44
too fast. Hannah's example made me stop and think
40:47
about how that might land with someone who's
40:49
spent an hour putting the work together. My intention
40:52
may have been, I appreciate this. The message
40:55
they receive could have been, she didn't even
40:57
read it. That's what I'm taking from this conversation.
41:00
I want to be willing to feel a little awkward
41:03
and say the thing. Also want to pay attention
41:07
to what people are actually hearing once I do.
41:10
If you want to explore that more, Henna is sharing
41:13
the first chapter of the signal gap for free
41:15
at thesignalgap .com backslash loud and lifted.
41:19
I'll put the link in the show notes too. Until
41:21
next time, stay loud and keep lifting.