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Losing a Spouse: What No One Tells You About Grief · Get Real with Jim Weiss

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: When I talked to Samina Barry about grief, which we
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: both share, we both lost spouses really around the same time.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I think everybody will relate to the story. But I
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: think what was most important about that conversation was related
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to how we do have to prevent the event relative
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: to how things will go. after a spouse passes on
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: or another loved one and how much executional logistics are involved.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: So she has a wonderful new platform. It's a digital
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: platform that help people get ready. It's not really fully
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: estate planning. I would call it planning and preparation for
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: a catastrophic event of any kind or a life-changing event
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: of any kind, which could include happy ones like births
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: and graduations and things like that you know getting ready
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: both financially administratively it will cut out all those issues
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: once and if the worst thing possibly happens because again
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: it's not what happens it's how we deal with it
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: and you know watching Samina who's been a longtime colleague
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: and friend, you know, I'm so impressed by her resilience.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: And of course she has to do it. She has
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: two young girls. She can't, you know, fold and, you know,
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: go into the corner and evaporate. She's got to figure
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: out how to help these girls get through this at
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: such a young age and come out better on the
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: other side. And I think that's a challenge. And she
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: was so honest and so real about about all of it,
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: which she always is. And I always appreciate that about her.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: You know, I think this is a really important health conversation.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: All right. Well, this is a long time in coming.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: I am so excited to have one of my besties
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: on this podcast. We share an experience nobody really wants
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: to say they've shared. in very different ways. And I've
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: been really excited to do it. I think it'll be
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: great for us, but also my audience really, really likes
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: this topic. And I think it's because it's not talked
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: about all that much. And I actually think it's a club,
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: it's a small club, and not a lot of people
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: are in it. And nobody knows what to say or
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: how to act. And I think that's a lot of what,
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: you know, your books deal with. So I always like
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: to Put those up and make sure everybody sees them
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: and downloads them and, you know, uses them. Don't Call
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: Me Widow by Samina Barry and Can I Will I Did,
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: which I've actually gotten and seen lots of really great
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: feedback on this one. A lot of people want to
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: meet you that I talk to. Wonderful. Like, I want
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: to talk to that woman. So we're going to give
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: them a little preview of that and then they can
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: call you directly, I'm sure.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: Great.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Look, we're here to talk about the books. Congratulations on
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: becoming a successful author, entrepreneur, to add to all your
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: other accomplishments. Don't Call Me Widows, really a guide to
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: helping support someone who's lost a spouse, as you have.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: And I Can, I Will, I Did, Lessons of Life, Love,
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: and Leadership is more focused on being a first-generation American.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: which I don't think I entirely appreciated or understood, challenging
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: expectations and reassessing what makes life meaningful. And I know
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: that has even gotten more challenging over the last couple
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: of years as you've gone through that. But I want
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: to try something new here. I want to do a
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: little social warmup to get us going rather than jump
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: right into all of my questions. What's something no one
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: warns you about about, you know, dating after losing a spouse.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: So I think a lot of people expect, some expect
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: something to happen quickly, some expect something to happen longer term.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: What's your view and experience on that?
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Well, that's a really good question. So first, let me
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: caveat it with, I haven't been on a date since
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: Doug died three years ago. I think there are different
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: ways to approach it. I have friends who really want
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: to see me with someone. It's mostly my male friends.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: Most of my men friends are saying, you deserve another
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: shot at happiness. You shouldn't be alone. And my girlfriends
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: are a little bit more cautious. They tell me when
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: I'm ready, they'll be ready to set me up. And honestly,
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: I don't know what to do, right? I was with
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: one person for 25 years. It's scary. It's daunting. It's
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: hard to think of being vulnerable with someone again and
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: to redefine it. And I don't know. I can't imagine
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: it right now. And I also have two young children.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: So for me, it's particularly hard.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I would think that complicates it a lot.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: It does. It does. I mean, our circumstances are different.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: Your children are grown. My kids are young girls, and
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: they're a little bit trauma-bonded to me right now. So
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: I can barely get to the store without a phone call.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, I can't imagine going out with another man.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know how they would take that.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it makes a ton of sense. I mean,
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: I relate to so many parts of that, and I definitely...
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: have different advice from different, you know, genders about, you know,
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: what to do and how to do it. What I
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: found interesting is that, you know, unless you've walked in
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: the shoes, it's really, it's nice to give advice. I
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: think people do it from a place of, you know,
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: wanting to do what's best for you and see what's
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: best for you. But what's something you wish people would
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: stop saying to someone who's grieving?
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: I know how you feel. I think that is the
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: worst thing you can do because you're comparing a loss
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: that's incomparable. And I think our loss, it's a different
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: kind of a loss, right? You know, we expect to
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: lose our parents when they get older and relatives when
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: they get older. And I said goodbye to both my parents.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: I was there with them for their last breaths. I
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: even said goodbye to my oldest, dearest friend of 50 years,
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: two years before Doug died.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: I grieve those, but the loss of a spouse is such,
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: it's the single most destabilizing event that can happen psychologically
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: because you lose your own sense of self. You lose
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: your hopes, your dreams, your memories, your, you know, where
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: do I fit on this earth? And so it's not
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: an imaginable loss. So comparing losses or trying to be
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: polite and say, I can only imagine seems so insulting
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: and you know, that's just my phrase.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: No, I relate to that. When people say, I can't imagine,
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: I feel pretty good about that. You know, I can't
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: imagine what you're going through and I don't ever think
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: I ever want to, which is, that's real.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: That is real.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: And I can feel that. But I agree with you that,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: you know, when someone says, you know, my parents or whatever,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: and I said, I've lost my parents too. It's not,
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: it's so not the same thing. It's kind of crazy.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: If you could tell new widows or widowers to do
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: one thing And I know the books talk about it.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: What would it be?
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: I would say don't have any expectations of what you
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: should or should not do, should or should not feel,
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: how long things should take, or those stages. That crap
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: about stages. Those stages of grief were meant for terminally
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: ill patients reflecting on themselves. And it was widely disputed
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: after that whole, you know, after the psychology community hijacked
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: it to make it apply to all grief. That's not
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: true of all grief. That was for terminally ill patients
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: reflecting on their own mortality.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: Okay. I mean, I agree with that. I mean, I
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: tell people it never ends.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: It doesn't.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: I don't think. And it's different. I mean, I'm still
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: in the midst of it. Yes, SMI.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's different for everyone. And so there should
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: be no expectation whatsoever. And don't let anyone tell you
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  Speaker 2: what you should or should not do or how you
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: should feel or how long it takes or, God forbid,
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: make a life-altering decision immediately. You know, throwing out clothes
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: or moving or doing something rash.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about how we got here. It's been
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: a long time in coming to get together. A lot
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: of my audience has heard me talk about the loss
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: of my wife, Audra. That was a longer-term loss to cancer. Yeah.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: You lost your husband, Doug, which was more of a
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  Speaker 1: sudden loss. I'm sure they're a difference in this experience.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: So give us the backstory on how you and Doug happened.
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  Speaker 1: I'm kind of, you know, I always love the origin stories.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: You had this big career in biotech and healthcare, advising
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: CEOs and brands, working on M & A transactions worth
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: billions of dollars. How did you fit in love and marriage?
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: You know, for those of you who read my first book,
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: you'll recognize it was a struggle. And for so long,
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: I put myself and proving myself first. So I focused
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: first on breaking out of a norm that my parents
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: put me in to create my own identity. And so
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: that was where my struggle and my fight and my
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: anger was channeled. It was proving myself. And in doing so,
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  Speaker 2: I put so much of myself into my worth and
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: my work and creating an identity around that.
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  Speaker 1: And that was in New York.
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  Speaker 2: And that was in New York.
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  Speaker 1: I'm a New Yorker.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: Very.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: Very much so.
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  Speaker 2: And yes, it was a long time ago, way before
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  Speaker 2: social media. Like I had no role models. I had
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: no one to look up to or aspire to or,
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  Speaker 2: you know, even be a mentor at that time. Because,
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: you know, I was a lone single, you know, brown
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: girl in an all-girl white Catholic school on Staten Island.
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  Speaker 1: New York. Staten Island. Yes. I didn't even think I
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  Speaker 1: knew that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And so much of my life was focused on proving myself,
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  Speaker 2: proving that I could be who I wanted to be,
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: regardless of my parents and culture's expectations. And I did that.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: And so I probably sabotaged relationships along the way. And
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: I went through dates that, you know, I dated people,
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: but it was never anything serious, because I don't think
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: I knew what I wanted. And finally, of course, when
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: you're not looking for it, I'm at a meeting, I
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: was working at an agency and My client contact had
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: changed and they introduced a new client to me. And
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: in walks this magnificently gorgeous man in a black turtleneck.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: And like he was taken from my childhood dreams of
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: who I wanted. He had the green eyes, the strong chin,
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: beautiful jawline, dimples, full head of hair. And I just
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: fell in love with him. It was like one of
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: those moments. And it's a client meeting. And I was obsessed.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: He was my client.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: That was the best client meeting I've ever had.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: It was. And I asked him out under the ruse
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: of an account update. That became our first date. And
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: about three weeks later, I spoke to my boss and
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: I asked to get off of the business because that
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: was a conflict of interest. And I knew. And he
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: and I were together from that moment on. Amazing. Yeah.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: So there's the before, the after, and the transition from
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: shock to grief. You go from us, we, to an I,
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: me overnight. Can we go back to that time in
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: your life? And can you talk a little bit about
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: it briefly?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I maybe feel foolish about this, but,
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: you know, I was so happy and content being happy
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: because so much of my life was a struggle to
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: get to what I think I'd wanted to work to deserve.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: And that was just being normal and happy and having
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: kids and a husband. And maybe we take those relationships
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: for granted, right? Because I was with him for 20
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: years at that time. And there was never a me.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, the me was a new me that was
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: me because of him, right? Because we don't recognize how
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: much we meld into each other, right? And there's unspoken
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: words and the glances and we kind of think like one,
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: we stand up for one another. I wouldn't be who
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: I was without him. And so to have him gone,
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: it's so, you just feel lost and confused because you
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: don't know where your start line is and your finish
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: line is anymore. And I felt so alone. And in
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: some ways, I am. I am alone because I don't
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: have any family. He didn't have any family. It was
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: always just the two of us. And it took us
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: a long time to have kids. And so that was
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: the four of us. And there are times I still
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: say we. I still just can't make myself say me.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: Is the ring still on?
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: The rings are on. Yeah, mine's still on too. Yeah.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: yeah and i've had people tell me you don't you
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: think it's time to take them off absolutely.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: Not i don't think i ever will i don't.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: Think i will either again one of those things that
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: people who shouldn't be saying say um because you know
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: we didn't get divorced there was no choice in my
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: heart he's still my husband right but a life on
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: the outside it's different but you know i talk to
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: him every day and he's i always said you know
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: when he died i said we're gonna say his name
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: we're not going to not say his name and My
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: kids are used to hearing his name. Our friends talk
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: about him all the time. So we keep him alive.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: So I haven't felt like it was that we to me.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: I do feel it in moments of stress because, you know,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: it is all on me now. And it's hard to
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: go from parenting two children as two parents to having
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: the entire burden on you. And that's really when I
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: feel it because I don't have that thought partner to
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: bounce ideas on or say, what do you think of
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: this or what should we do? It's a really big
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: emotional burden. So that's really when I feel like it's
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: just me.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: So you talk about it, you know, losing Doug, changing
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: your sense of self. You were a very strong, powerful
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: woman before you met him. I mean, is that there
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: or has that changed, you know, about who you are
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: and who you're going to be?
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it has changed a bit. You know,
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't be lying if I said I haven't changed.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: I've changed in a lot of ways. And that's because
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: grief does something to you, right? Physiologically, biologically, it does
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: change us. It softens some edges, it sharpens others. But
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: here's the one thing, I will never be a victim.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: And so I choose to control the future and my destiny.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: And so in that regard, it took me a while,
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: it took me about a year and a half to
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: get myself out of being in bed every day and
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: kind of going through the motions.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: Is that when you started writing the books, or were
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: they in your head?
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, no, absolutely. The books, yeah, the night that
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: Doug died, I was actually reading the manuscript for my
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: first book. And I got the phone call that I
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: knew something had happened. And he died later that night,
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: never having read that first book of mine. And I
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: was actually supposed to give it to him the next day.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: So I put it down and it took me about
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: six or seven months. And I thought for Doug, I'm
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: going to finish this book because it was the last
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: thing he expected of me.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: And so I don't know, you know, I don't know.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: I'm putting this, I'm, I sensed it, I guess, you know,
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I just felt like it was something
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: I would do it or he knew I finished it.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: And I was reading it that evening because the next
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: day we were, I was going to get it to
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: him to read. And I promised it to him. So
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: while I was in bed with my glass of white wine,
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: just like ticking off last minute changes, I got the
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: phone call that changed my life, that something had happened.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: So six months later, I finished, I wrote a new
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: chapter for the book, a new ending, because obviously I
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: had a different ending when he was alive. And it
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: was raw and real. And I talked about what it was,
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: but I also talked about who I was now, which
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: was changed forever, but fundamentally the same, that I was
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: not giving up. And about a year and a half
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: after that, I wrote my second book, Don't Call Me Widow,
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: because I was sitting in grief groups with other parents
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: who had lost their partner. And it was so extremely sad.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: And it made me so angry to think that we
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: all felt as though there were two different worlds of
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: a world in which people have not been touched by
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: it and say the most insensitive things and do the
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: most insensitive things. And then there was all of us.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: And I thought, well, you know, we're in an echo
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: chamber if we just keep on lamenting to ourselves. Why
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: don't I write something, pull back the curtain on these
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: two worlds? Because loss is inevitable. And as a society,
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: we've done a terrible job.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. As I said, everyone gets hit by the bouncing ball. Yeah.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And we've done a terrible job dealing with it
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: and recognizing it. And so there's such supreme discomfort around
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: grief and loss that we don't deal with it until
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: we have to. And then we all suffer because we
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: don't know what to say. We don't know how to
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: show up or we're on the receiving end, feeling hurt
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: and angry and even worse. So that's why I wrote
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: Don't Call Me Widow. It's not a book about grief.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: It's a book about how to show up for someone
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: who's lost their spouse. And again, I focus primarily on
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: spousal loss because it is a very different loss. I
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: wouldn't have had any great insight to share if I
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: was writing about the loss of a parent. Because that's
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: a different feeling. Or the loss of anyone else. Again,
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: this is a very destabilizing moment in people's lives.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Although your kids lost a parent.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: They did. And that's a different angle.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: So that's a whole other thing.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: That's a whole other thing.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: That's a whole other thing. But I put out Don't
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: Call Me Widow as a guide. And I was very
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: intentional about how I wrote it. I made sure it
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: was pithy. It was succinct. It was clear. It was indexed.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: I used large font. I used wide spacing. And I
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: had it so clearly indexed that people could pick it
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: up when they need it because I didn't want it
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: to be daunting. And it's indexed in the self-help section,
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: not in the grief section.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: Wow. So let's talk about, you just answered some of this,
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: but there aren't really many resources to share grief outside therapy.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: I have wonderful chosen family. So I rely mostly on them. And,
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: you know, I'd cultivated my chosen family over the years.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: So I'm really fortunate. They are aunties and uncles to
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: my girls. And these are my soul sisters. And the
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: uncles are the dads who show up for my girls.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: So I speak with them. But, you know, you have
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: to be careful, too, because they also don't know what
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: to say up until a certain point. They try to
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: be helpful, but they don't quite get it right. I
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: tried therapy for a little while, and believe it or not,
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: the therapist was comparing my loss to her mother, her
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: mother's loss. And so I just stopped that. But I
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: will say the feedback I get from Don't Call Me
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: Widow and I Can, I Will, I Did, the podcast,
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: the limited series podcast I did, which is called Afterlife,
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: and even a lot of the outreach I do on
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: LinkedIn has people reaching out to me. And I have
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: been wanting to not write about it, to write about grief,
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: but write about my experiences to normalize it to some extent,
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: to not make it so taboo. So we're not all
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: afraid of it. And people have really responded to that.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: So I was just published in Newsweek. And I go
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: out there and I speak, I speak about it because,
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: you know, we can't all hide from it. It's, you know,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: it's going to come for everybody eventually. And it's really
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: how we show up that matters because, you know, how
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: we show up for others will be what we want
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: for ourselves one day.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: And do you ever think that's what Doug would want
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: or not really? I mean, you know, how you're showing
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: up because, you know, you don't really stop loving the
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: person who died. What, has been moving forward been like
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: for you? You know, it's like how, you know, doing
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: all this, give back the way I did it. And
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: then my kids were wondering, how is it that you're
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: popping out of the gate and running so fast and
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: doing all these things? And we don't feel that, you know,
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: we're stuck back here. And I'm like, cause I did
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: two and a half years of, you know, caregiving on
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: top of it, which is what I've talked about a lot.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: So I was grieving a From the moment she got
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: that diagnosis to, you know, through the whole process of
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: watching her, you know, fight it in many ways really
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: nobly and well, and in other ways really difficult. So
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: I think I had been experiencing it for so long.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: And it's never done. So as you said, but what
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: has moving forward been like for you?
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's not a straight line, right? Like,
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: I had some great days, and then I have some
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: days where I just, you know, I'm down, and I
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: need to be in bed, and I, you know, cancel meetings,
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: and I just need to shut down. You know, it's
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: been stop and start, right? Because I wanted to, I
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: have to be a mother. I still have to show up, right? Like,
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: I don't have the luxury of of just wallowing and
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: doing my own thing and feeling sorry for myself. Because,
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: for example, with that set, I have to show up
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: for my girls. So right now, I focus all of
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: my energy and time into my girls. And also, recognizing
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: that statistically, women do outlive men, that there are a
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: lot more deaths that are going to occur, right? When
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: we think about the aging population, our demographics, and the
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: great wealth transfer that we all talk about, you know,
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: that great wealth transfer is coming because of the loss
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: of aging parents and spouses. And so I am just
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: trying to do my best to make sure that women
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: who will come after me kind of have their eyes
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: wide open and are better prepared than I was because
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: there's someone showing them the way. And so I found
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: that's really gives me purpose. I think that, you know,
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: that's what Doug would want to do because he was
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: a really empathetic, caring, nurturing person. Um, and he wouldn't
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: want this to just destroy my life. Um, but no,
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: it hasn't. No, it hasn't. Um, and so I think
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: this is very much what he would want to do.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: I want me to do.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: Great. Um, sometimes I answer that question with, I don't
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: know what, sometimes I know what she wants and I don't,
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: but sometimes I don't know that. They're like, sometimes I
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: think she's guiding it all. And then sometimes I'm like,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: that's nuts.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: No, I do the same thing.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: I really doubt myself more with the kids, right? Because
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: Doug was the stay-at-home dad.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: So we had a role reversal in our house.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: So that's a really big thing.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: That's a major dynamic. And yes, that's been a big
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: change for me.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: What a shift. It is.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: And also, to my sense of identity and self, I've
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: always wanted children, but I knew I didn't want to
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: be a stay-at-home mom or anything. I mean, I'm not
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: built for that, quite frankly, and that's okay. But I've
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: had to become one. I've had to become more of
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: a mother than I was used to doing in that,
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: not emotionally, but I don't really cook. I'm not great
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: with domestic things. I mean, believe it or not, he cooked,
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: he cleaned, he sewed, he mended, he loves that stuff.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: I do it.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: I do it, you know, but I love my children.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: So I would do anything for my children. So it's
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: been a lot of shifting of, of my life. You know,
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: I baked my first pie last week and I, like
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: I sent apple, but you know, I've never done that
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: in my life. Um, so I'm doing things that are
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: completely out of my comfort zone this late in life
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: because I have to, I drove a car in Italy
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: and I mean, I'd never driven a car outside of
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: the United States before in my life. I did it
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: this summer.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: But that was on the side that we can still
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: relate to. It's not like you were on the other side.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: It is, but I just never did it.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: But it's very hard to get through those streets. Oh, exactly.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: But I was always afraid to do it my whole life.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: And then I'm thinking, I have two little kids. How
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: am I going to get from here to there? I've
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: got to rent a car. I've got to drive it.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: And I did it. So I'm doing all of these
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: things that I normally wouldn't have done. Because, you know,
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: what are you going to do?
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: And.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: you know, yes, I'm sure he was cheering me on
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: in those moments. And then, you know, I'm sure he
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: was over my shoulder telling me on, you know, watch
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: your fingers when you cut those apples. And because I
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: had terrible knife skills.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: That's good to know. Um, let's talk about being a widow, widower.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: What is your relationship with that word? Do you have any?
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, I hate it. I hate that word so much. Um,
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: I don't know how, you know, just imagine, I don't know,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever said it, really. Exactly. I
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: find it incredibly offensive. And I actually looked it up
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: in my book, because we're communications people. I looked it up,
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: and it dates back to the 1500s, where it means
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: to be destitute, to be kind of put aside in society.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: And it completely conjures up what you think of a
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: little gray-haired old woman stooped over in a corner, not
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: contributing and not participating. And also, I find it really
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: interesting that It's a negative word with a feminine connotation,
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: whereas most words are masculine first with a feminine connotation.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: But in this case, very deliberately, the name widow came
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: for a woman first.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: I find that curious. But, you know, essentially it's saying
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: you're done. You're no longer a benefit to society.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I guess that's right.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: I hate it.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: I kind of forgot that that's what it was. So
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: you're kind of saying don't call me that and redefining
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: what it's like. Let's talk about the burden of being
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: strong for your kids, for yourself, being told you're so strong,
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: you must be strong. How do those kinds of phrases land?
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: I understand the intention because no one says it to
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: be unkind. I get that. But that's actually the premise
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: of my book because you don't know what to say,
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: so you say that. But listen, I'm not strong. I
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: am ordinary. I am an ordinary person that had something
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: happen to me that happens to other people. And you
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: have to go on. And just because you go on
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: doesn't make you strong or weak. It's just what you
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: have to do. So I don't feel like I'm doing
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: anything heroic. I'm putting one foot in front of the
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: other and trying to live. And there's nothing strong or
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: brave about it. What's the alternative? You don't do anything.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: You roll up and die of a broken heart. And again,
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: I've never been a victim.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: So I.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: I rankle a little when people say that.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, sometimes that happens, doesn't it?
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: It does.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: Like people do. Like the spouse follows the other spouse.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: It does, yeah.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: Especially when they're older.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: Especially when they're older, right? I mean, and that's an
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: entirely different phenomenon, which I totally get. But, you know,
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: I'm doing what millions of people are doing. And, you know,
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: that's the thing. Those of us who've lost our spouses,
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: we number in the millions. We're there everywhere. And some
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: people don't know, you know, if you've lost a spouse
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: or not. you don't have to put a medal on
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: our backs. We're just living. We're living in a life
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: that we didn't plan for in the best way we can. And,
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: you know, I don't know if that's strong or not.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: I don't know. How do you feel about that?
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: I guess I feel pretty much exactly how you're saying it. And,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: you know, I always say I went back to what
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: I was taught as a kid, you know, this, this
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: concept of buck up.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Right. You know, just get on with it. I mean,
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: we're not just how you're taught and how you're, Plus,
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: like you said, even though my kids were older, they
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: weren't beyond the ages of needing to be parented.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: Of course.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: And that was huge role reversal for me too, because
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Audra did all that work. Right. You know, she was
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: the rock. I was the traveling fun dad. And I
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: think I had to, you know, make kind of a
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: quick switch and I didn't really do it. And I
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: think that's why my kids would say things, you know,
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: you need to be the parent. And that was not something...
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: You know, it's not that I never parented, but I
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: think in certain cases they are and were looking for parenting.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: And that's like a new muscle skill. Right. You know,
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: thing that you don't, you know, and that sounds like
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: you've gone through the same thing. And your kids are
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: really at the, you know, I mean, you've got a
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: good 10, 15 years here. I do. When they're strong,
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: like what, are they 10? They're 10 now. They're 10 now, right? Yeah. Oh, God.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: It just turned 10.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: How long has it been since this happened to Doug?
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: Three years. It's only three years.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: So he died within two weeks after their seventh birthday.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: Right. I knew it was close, but I wasn't really sure.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: Parenting while grieving is sort of an impossible balancing act.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: How are you helping your kids grieve? And are you
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: careful about grieving in front of them?
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: Oh, such good questions. um i will say again because
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: our circumstances of our losses were so different um i
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: fell apart you know i i couldn't breathe i couldn't
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: eat i couldn't sleep i couldn't function um because it
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: was such a shock.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: And um Well, that's shock.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: It's shock, it's PTSD, it's everything, right? And so I
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: did grief very openly, but I had a house full
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: of people who were taking care of the kids, and
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: that was a lifesaver. And of course, telling my children
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: that their father had died will always be the worst
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: moment of my life. I mean, obviously saying goodbye to
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: him was the worst, but telling children I knew I
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: was destroying their lives for the rest of their lives.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: And so I was not myself for several months. I
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: had to be on tranquilizers. I mean, I was really
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: a mess. But again, I have such a wonderful chosen family.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, who showed up? So when you say that, who
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: were some, like you said, you had a house full
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: of people.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: I had a house full of people, yeah.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: So who were these kids, friends from school?
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: No, you know, so I lost two years earlier my oldest,
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: dearest friend from when I was five years old. Her
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: children are my godsons. When Doug was in the hospital,
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: I knew he was gone and I was just waiting.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: I called my dear friend Stephanie from the East Coast
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: and it was three o'clock in the morning here, six
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning there and through sobs. And I
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: don't even know what I said. Um, somehow she was
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: magically in my house that same day. She just, she
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: jumped on a plane like within minutes and was here.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: It is right. Um, she's a darling. And then we
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: had really, we've really close friends in our neighborhood who
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: were with Doug. Um, you know, that night it happened. And,
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: They were the ones who picked me up at the
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: hospital and all of that. And, you know, again, we've
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: collected a wonderful group of family members. And so everybody
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: was kind of there at once. We had people drive
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: down from Modesto. We had people come up from LA
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: and everyone was in the house. And I made the
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: decision not to tell my girls the day he died.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: He died on early Friday morning. I waited until Saturday
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: because they were staying at a babysitter's and they were
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: having a good time. And I thought to myself, dear God,
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: let them have one more day of happiness. And I
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: told them the next morning and everybody was there. And
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: so they were very supported, but it was interesting. They
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: also said, everyone is here for you, mommy. No one
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: is here for us. They're all your friends. We have
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: no one here for us. And it's really amazing when
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: you think about the child's view of all of this.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Because they really didn't have that established group of friends yet.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: No.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: They were seven.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: No.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Right? And so the kids, I, wow, what a contrast. Because,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: you know, in the Jewish religion, we do death so well.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: It's like, you know, you're prepared. We had, I don't
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: know if you did this, you know, we had Shiva, right?
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: And for seven days, and all my, all the kids came. Yeah.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: But they were older. Right, right. You know, my kids
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: were in their 20s when this happened. And they were
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: here in my house. Holding my kids, you know, for
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: a week.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And, you know, and it's not even just like
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: a peer thing, but the adults themselves were so sad
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: and uncomfortable with what happened. People made themselves busy, but
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: people forgot to ask my kids, how are you? Can
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: I give you a hug? Do you want to cry?
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: You know, they, the kids were invisible. They were kind
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: of part of the scenery. It is, right? And it's
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: one of those things that you don't think about, that
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: you have to be so intentional about children because children
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: who have suffered the loss of a parent at an
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: early age are more likely to become alcoholics or drug addicts,
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: suffer from anxiety, depression, and suicide. So you really cannot
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: ignore children who suffer this loss. And so one of
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: the first things I did was I got them into therapy.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: So that they have their safe person and, you know,
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: who they can talk to, whatever those feelings are. And
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: they go to this day. In fact, one of my daughters.
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: I would think so. Yeah. I don't think that's, that may.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: Be a long process. Well, it's, yeah, it is a
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: long process, right? You know, but it's every week. And so,
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: and it's been going for three years, every week. And
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: I drive them, you know, every week. And Like those
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: are the adjustments I've made because I have to be
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: there as much as possible because sometimes I go into
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: sessions with them. And one of my children, her therapist said, oh,
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: we can move to every other week. And my daughter said, no,
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: this is my time. I want every week. So whatever
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: it is she talks about, whatever it is she feels,
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: that's her safe place. And that is what I will
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: give her.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: Do you see a difference over time with it or?
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: You know, it's hard for me to say what the
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: difference is. I mean, they're definitely not the same children
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: they were. They're not happy-go-lucky children. They, you know, to
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: strangers who don't know them, they seem perfectly normal. But
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: I know who they were before, and I know they're
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: not the same children. They are so articulate and clear
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: about their feelings that it's heartbreaking. Like, it really, like,
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: you know, you think children that young should not talk
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: like this, and yet they do.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: Which I guess is good in some ways. Yes. Right?
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: That they're putting it out there in the world.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: It absolutely is. But, you know, for example, they just
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: turned 10 in March and we were talking about double
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: digits and being a big year and it got very
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: somber and they said they weren't looking forward to it.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: Why not? Well, because daddy's not here. And I said,
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: I know. And well, daddy's not, it evolved. Daddy's not
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: going to be here for my speed 16. Daddy won't
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: be here for prom. Daddy won't be here for graduation.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: Daddy won't be here to see me get married. No
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: one's going to be there to do the father-daughter dance
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: with me. And they're 10. And this is how they're thinking.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: And it breaks your heart, right?
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: It's just, I don't think I, I always learn something
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: from these things, but this, you know, not what I
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: expected and thought about because it wasn't exactly my experience.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: But it's certainly making me think I need to check
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: in on that more. They're of course feeling it more
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: than I think. But we try, you know, we did the,
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: you know, the three, the, the three of us, but
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: we had a guy doing it. So Emily was like,
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: what's with the three guys and me. And you're not
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: getting my perspective as the daughter, right. Who's lost her mom,
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: who is saying the same things, right. My mother's not
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: going to.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: Walk, you know, she's not going to see her half
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: her first child. She's, No, and those are going to
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: be big milestone moments for her.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: You know, we went to a RISE festival, a music festival,
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: and you write on the lanterns. And, you know, I
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: could see she wrote, I have a dear mom, I
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: have a boyfriend now. You would really love him. You know,
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: it's just like, just not going to have that ever.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: No, I know. And I'm, you know, of course, I'm
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: so sorry it happened, but I'm grateful that your kids
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: had that time with her. You know, through that, those
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: prime developmental years, you know, my children are still kind
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: of wild west, like which way will they go? Will
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: they turn out to be okay or not? I don't know.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: That's why I put all my energy in making sure
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: they're okay and making sure I'm not adultifying them. I'm
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: trying to make sure, you know, we're trauma bonded to
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: some extent because it happened to us, but I need
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: to make sure they're like, you know, they are able
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: to stand on their own and launch when they need to. Um,
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: but yeah, it's really complicated. You know, you have little
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: kids because, you know, I can't even really express my
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: grief the same way because I'm focusing on theirs and
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: mine has to come last.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: Right. Somewhere else. Right. How do you fit it in?
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: So death's practical paperwork, finances, insurance that you have to
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: deal with the start of grief process. How did you
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: handle that? You know, that's another whole thing. Like the administration, um,
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: of death, right? That is so impersonal. And how do
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: you help others navigate it? I assume through this book, but,
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: you know, through talking to people, I know it was
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: something you and I talked about in the beginning. I remember,
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: you know, getting snagged, you know, dealing with my wife's lease,
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: you know, and just crazy, you know, Carly's, I just,
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: obviously it's mounds of work.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: It is, it is. It's hundreds of, tasks, decisions, processes,
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: you know, pieces of paperwork, discussions. And, you know, like you, like,
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: you know, I had will, we had trusts, we had
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: all of the paperwork.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: Which is great, right?
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: That you're supposed to have, right? But I think we're
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: all lulled into this feeling that, oh, if you've got
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: all of this, you're set. But you know what? None
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: of that matters if you can't execute that plan.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: And in the moments of life that we are least
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: prepared emotionally prepared or have capacity to do all of
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: this stuff that's when it hits us right like we
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: still have to do this stuff and things have to
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: be done in a certain order by a certain time
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: and um and it was so overwhelming and i remember
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: i first called my financial advisor and i said what
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: do i do what am i supposed to do first
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: and he said well you know here are the the
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: financial things and i can help you with this and
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: i'll pre-fill things but you know you have to do
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: all of this other stuff and my other stuff, you know, it's,
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: you know, freeze your credit card, um, you know, your
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: credit and all of that. Um, and who can help me?
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: And he said, well, let me send you a PDF checklist.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: And he sends me a checklist. And I thought, are
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: you kidding me? Like, are you assuming I have mental
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: clarity right now that I can go through a checklist?
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: And yet that's all there was. And I called my
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: state attorney and he couldn't do anything. He said, no,
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: I only really handle this. All of that other stuff
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: is up to us, right? And in regular moments, we
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: still do that stuff, right? It's all the stuff we
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: don't really.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: Want to do.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: We have to do.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: They must've helped.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: Some of them helped. Yeah. Some of them helped a
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: little bit.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: I have a twin sister who helped.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, and that's awesome. Yeah. And you can do
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: it right. And you can, and you should have your
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: friends and family help where they can, but it's impossible really.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: Like it's so overwhelming. It's hundreds and hundreds of hours.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: And people did help. But ultimately, I was still the
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: one who had to kind of coordinate it and remember
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: what did I do before? What comes next? When do
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: I reach out again? What do I need to follow
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: up on? And all of those steps. And I remember
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: being really supremely angry. One night, I was on Google
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: because it was way before chat and AI. And I
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: was Googling this stuff. And I was like, how can
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: this be that I have a team of professionals, and
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: I'm doing all of this. And why is this so hard? Right?
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: And then I realized, well, I'm not alone. Millions of
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: people are doing the same thing. And you think about
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: what's the definition of crazy, right? You do the same
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: thing over and over again. But here we've got millions
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: of people who are doing the same exact work over
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: and over again. And I thought, wait a minute. There's
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: got to be a better way. There has to be
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: a system to do this better. And, you know, fast forward,
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: that feeling of even though I had the resources, never
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: left me. And I thought, what about everyone else? So
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: I set out last year to build a system for
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: this that handles the execution of all of those plans
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: so that you don't have to when you're least capable.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: And that's called?
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: It's called Farewell. And AI is so sophisticated that it
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: does include AI, an AI-powered engine that focuses on empathy.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Because emotions are the gatekeeper to whether we get things
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: done or not, whether we can get through execution or not,
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: whether we are just going to give up and go
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: back to bed or not. And so it maps, it curates,
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: it organizes and guides you through every single step in
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: the order in which it must occur. And it does
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: as much for you so that you've got clarity, you've
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: got companionship, and you've got the execution capability. And it
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: stretches across your financial life, your legal life, your medical life.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: and everything else in between. But it gives everyone a
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: roadmap to get things done, and it allows other people
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: in your life to do the work for you. Yes,
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: so that you're not singularly burdened.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: So can we get it on Apple? Where do we
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: get it? Absolutely.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: It's at withfarewell.com. It actually just launched, and it's been fantastic.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: It's really the empathetic execution infrastructure that's been missing in
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: our industry's Because all of the industries have their systems
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: for their transactions, but we're the people in the middle
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: who've got to do it all. And when you think
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: about it, all moments in life, happy and sad, they
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: come with emotions and paperwork. Whether you're having a baby,
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: getting married, buying a house, career change, retirement, aging parents, whatever.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: And I've built out journeys for all of these. And
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: I've called it farewell because farewell doesn't mean goodbye. Farewell
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: means journey safely.
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I thought.
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: And these are journeys. All of these moments in life
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: are journeys.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: So through the books, you've made grief a mission and
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: a reason to go on through the business too.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: Does that resonate with you that that's your purpose and
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: your mission? You know, to help others through this process?
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: Is that what you're going to do now? Or is
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: that just a part of you?
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: No, I think. Fundamentally, that's always been who I was.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: I got into healthcare because I wanted to impact people's lives, patients' lives.
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: The boards that I serve on, it impacts people's lives.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: I belong on a stillbirth prevention board. It's about impacting
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: lives for the better, positively. And I see the books
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: and the beautiful messages I get from people who tell
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: me that they feel like I've given them a voice.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: That's helping them. And Farewell will help millions because these
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: are inevitable moments in life. And, you know, plans can
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: only do so much, but if you can't execute the plan,
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: it's no good.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: Well, vision without execution is hallucination.
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Exactly. So this will be it for me. This is,
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: you know, I will always do something that's of service
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: to others, that I can use my experiences to make
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: it better for people. I made mistakes in this whole process.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: And you know what? I built my mistakes into Farewell.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: so that other people don't make those same mistakes.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a health product, no doubt about it.
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: Eventually, I always say you have to organize versus agonize. Right.
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: It sounds like you've been doing that.
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: I have, yes.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: Despite the agony.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's always there, but yeah.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: And I think I've gotten, this is my year of
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: really dealing with it more because I don't think people,
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: like you said, it's actually devastation. right? It is a,
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: you know, spectacular, um, when something like this happens, especially
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: suddenly it's such a, you know, like a nuclear bomb.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: It is right. The, the devastation that happens and the,
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: you know, it's cataclysmic and, you know, it's always remarkable
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: when people rise from that. Um, and I think, you know,
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: founding Pharrell, your platform, um, It's so critical, but I
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: just have to ask what's next for Samina Barry. Are
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: you bringing back the podcast afterlife, you know, or what else?
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I'm, you know, I'm going to focus on
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: farewell because my mission really is that no one go
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: through that chaos again. And it happens repeatedly millions of
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: times a day, every single year. So if I can
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: improve that experience for people, that's where I'm focusing on.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: Because that ultimately will change kind of the framework of
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: society and how we deal with things. And, you know,
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: perhaps there's a podcast again in the future. You know,
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: that depends. I don't know if there's another book, but
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: right now I'm focusing on getting that business scaled because
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: it really will make fundamental differences. It is self-funded. It
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: is bootstrapped. I have a few private investors. I'm running
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: a pre-seed round right now. So if anyone is interested,
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: I'm happy to do that. I'm being really careful with
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: taking money from VCs at this point. Because again, it's
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: a very mission-driven product. And I don't want the soul
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: sucked out of it. But I want it to impact
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: people's lives positively. Because it's coming. And when we think
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: about the demographic, 40 to 60, we don't have another
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: 50 years to live. So we have to be realistic
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: and we have to make sure that we don't just
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: have plans, but our kids know what to do with
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: the plans and know what to do first, second, third,
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: and in what order, and avoid costly mistakes and one-way
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: doors that our legal and financial system are full of.
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: Well, this sounds broader than just loss, right?
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: It's much broader than loss.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: It's all the big milestones and how to navigate them, right?
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: When we think about all of that Life administration, I
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: call it. It's the stuff that sits in our head
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: undone that occupies mental energy. It's always there because no
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: one loves to do paperwork. So what I'm doing with
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: Farewell is I've liked people to take a free peace
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: of mind score, less than two minutes, and it kind
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: of maps out where your deficiencies are. And so if
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: you know where you stand, you know what to do.
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: And so just unlock a quick 30-day journey and get
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: all of that in order so that if, God forbid...
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: someone is in an accident or you're incapacitated or having
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: surgery or anything, people know what to do and how
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: to get it done. Because, again, life is unpredictable. I
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: never in a million years could have thought that I
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: would lose my husband so suddenly in such a freak accident.
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: We were living our best lives and we had years
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: and years. We were supposed to grow old together. And
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: my girls should have had a father. But life is unpredictable.
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: And I want people to be protected and their loved
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: ones to be protected. And I think we talk about
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: legacy so much, but I think legacy is also the
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: chaos or calm you leave your loved ones with. And
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: I want people to have calm guidance that, you know,
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: that helps them and their families navigate really emotional times
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: in their life, whether it's divorce or marriage or a
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: new house or a new child or a career transition
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: or caring for aging parents is a big one. Lots
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: of sandwich generation people out there. That's a whole other process.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: So I've got journeys in there for all of those situations.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: It makes so much sense. I mean, so you had programmers,
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: you know, do this?
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: I have an amazing tech team from Berkeley who has
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: built it with me. And I have a patent pending
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: on it because there is no empathetic AI. So because,
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: you know, again, I could create an app and I
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: could create a process. But if no one's going to
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: use it, then it's not done anything. I need people
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: to use it. And I have to, you know, you
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: have to acknowledge the feelings.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: To hear that, use it.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: Use it.
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: Download it now.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: If you don't acknowledge there's a feeling that causes procrastination
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: or dread or fear or anxiety, you're never going to
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: get past it. So you go in with a check-in
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: of how you're feeling and the program will curate for
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: you things that it thinks you can accomplish to completion.
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: The goal is completion.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: So things don't remain undone.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: Execute.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: It's all about execution.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: So amazing. Wow, Samina, so exciting. And we'll spend more
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: time on that when we have more time. But before
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: we say farewell, I always ask everybody, what album is
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: the soundtrack of your life if there could be one? Ah, yes.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: Okay. Well, I am a New Yorker, and I would
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: have to say Billy Joel's The Stranger, right? Because it's
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: all about kind of not fitting in and not being,
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: you know, not kind of feeling at home always and
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: doing things a little bit differently. And, you know, like
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: she's always a woman to me, you know, you can
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: be loud and bold and not fit a stereotype or
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: an expectation, but still be your own person.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: You know, I do think that some of the things
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: you said today and what you're doing with farewell will
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: impact a lot of people. Um, I just want to
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: say thanks for being a friend and you know, so
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: long a client, uh, an inspiration. And, um, I knew
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: this was going to be awesome. It far exceeded my expectations.
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: So thanks for coming out of the way. My pleasure.
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: Hey everyone. Thanks for watching. I really appreciate that you
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: take the time to listen to this and, Tune in.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: So please subscribe, follow. We've got a lot of amazing guests.
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