Latest / Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast / MBA Wire Taps 478: Seeking a test waiver. Diplomat in Moscow. Yale vs Columbia

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MBA Wire Taps 478: Seeking a test waiver. Diplomat in Moscow. Yale vs Columbia · Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to the Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast. I'm Graham Richmond, and this is your Wiretaps for Monday, March 2, 2026. Looking for an MBA experience where you're truly seen, supported and inspired to grow. And at Vanderbilt Business, you'll discover a personalized learning environment that elevates your potential and turns ambition into action. Whether you're switching careers or accelerating your current path, the Vanderbilt MBA offers a customizable curriculum, exceptional outcomes, and a community committed to your success. Propel your future with a program invested in who you are and who you're becoming. Vanderbilt is waiving their $200 application fee for MBA Wiretaps listeners. To learn more about the Vanderbilt MBA program and to claim your application fee waiver, Visit Business Vanderbilt. Edu ClearAdmit. I'm joined by Alex Brown from Cornwall, England. Alex, how are things going?
• 1:09
  Speaker B: Very good, thank you, Graeme.
• 1:10
  Speaker A: I cannot believe March is here. I mean, you know, it's felt like a long winter, probably especially for people in the United States where, you know, the eastern part of the US where it'd been terribly cold, so. But spring, you know, it's kind of right around the corner, which is exciting. I will say this week we've got a great episode. We've got London Business School's career report for the class of 2020 25, which we're going to break down. We've got some deferred enrollment tips straight from the admissions team at Stanford and as usual, some pretty interesting candidates to discuss, including a U.S. diplomat who's applying to business school and someone trying to decide between Yale and Columbia for their MBA with a decision wire entry that you pick. So we'll get into all of that. But Alex, I know we're kind of past the big dates for interviews, right? You know, we saw a couple weeks ago we had what, MIT and Wharton being the last of the two big schools. But is there if I don't have an interview at this point in early March, am I kind of cooked? Are there still some schools that are trickling? And also, do you have a sense as to when are we almost to decision weeks? Aren't there going to be some decisions coming soon or maybe towards the middle of the month?
• 2:11
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, you're cooking. I wouldn't say you're absolutely cooked yet, but yeah, if you do the data analysis, you would say as the season goes on, there's less opportunity for an interview invite with more folks waiting, so the percentages will shift. But the reality is there are plenty of schools that release interview invites through a good portion of March. So for those folks, there is still some hope. But yes, we're heading two sort of, sort of nuanced changes in the admission season. We're seeing a few, few final releases of decisions for round two. And this upcoming week, Oxford, Sade, Johns Hopkins and Tepper are amongst schools releasing decisions. Not necessarily all round two, but releasing decisions. And we're shifting also towards round three.
• 3:11
  Speaker A: Oh, right.
• 3:12
  Speaker B: So we're seeing some early round three application deadlines. The likes of Keena, Flagla, Tepe and a couple of other programs are hitting the next cycle. So, yeah, things are starting to shift.
• 3:26
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I think when we did our live stream a couple weeks ago, there were a lot of questions about this stuff, like, oh, I haven't had an interview yet, when's the last date that I might hear? And we did see there are some of those schools and I think Cornell maybe and nyu, there were a couple that sort of, they might trickle out into, you know, well into March a little bit. So we'll see how it goes. But our fingers are crossed for anyone still waiting. And obviously this is one of those years where applying in round three may not be the worst idea for the US Schools. You know, it seems like application volume is down mostly. I mean, it's hard to say. We don't have all the final data from, from schools yet. They normally don't tell us that until, you know, the end of the year. But, you know, some initial reports would suggest volume's down a bit and, you know, so this could be an okay time to apply late. We do have, we've, we've gone through a ton of events recently. I know a lot of people joined us for some of the events over the course of February. We just have one big event in March and that's on March 19th. So it's a couple weeks away still. And we're going to have 14 top MBA programs and it's going to be so much fun. We're going to talk about kind of admissions. So this is an event for international students considering US MBA programs. So we're going to talk about admissions and how admissions looks at international candidates. Then we're going to talk about on a separate panel how the process of going from getting an acceptance to showing up on campus works. Like, how do you get your visa? How do you get settled in? And again, another panel for that and then a final panel on outcomes. So where you work, how do you work and stay in the U.S. what are your other options? How do the visas Work again. And joining us for this event is going to be Duke, Columbia, Stanford, Yale, Berkeley, Cornell, mit, Kellogg, Chicago, nyu, uva, ucla, Michigan and Tuck at Dartmouth. So really great list of. And I've been looking at the panelists. We've got career services directors, we've got admissions directors, an immigration lawyer who's an expert in kind of visa stuff. We've got some current students. So it's going to be a great group of individuals representing these different schools and talking us through all of this. So that's definitely not to be missed and I'm really excited about it now.
• 5:36
  Speaker B: It's going to be an absolutely fantastic event. Yeah, no doubt in my mind it's going to uncover the some real sort of black box type issues for international candidates. So I'm really looking forward to learning from it.
• 5:48
  Speaker A: Yeah. So join us. 10am March 19, that's a Thursday, 10am Eastern. And it'll run about an hour and a half. The other big thing is in May we're doing our MBA fair, which I've already been plugging the last couple of episodes. You can sign up for all of these events by just going to clearadmit.com events. So yeah, lots to look forward to. A little less chaotic than February where I think we did like, I don't know, eight events or something, so. So things are settling in a bit. Alex, anything that you want to say about the MBA interview simulator? Because there's still some people probably interviewing and I presume they're using the simulator and have been. I mean, I just feel like you've been tracking this and I know we're recording in advance a little bit this week, but it seems like people are still making good use of this and I'm guessing MIT interviews are going to be on the rise in the last couple weeks given that they issued their invites and stuff.
• 6:39
  Speaker B: Yeah, I'm still waiting for someone to do an interview for Johnson.
• 6:43
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 6:44
  Speaker B: The only school off the 20 school pick list that's not been selected or someone hasn't actually completed a simulated interview. But that gets back to the point that when does Johnson roll out interview invites? It's always a little bit off the schedule of several of the other programs. But yeah, but yeah, no, we're seeing a lot of activity, quite honestly, sort of sustained activity and hopefully it's providing a really good resource for those candidates and they're getting really good interview reports that they can then use feedback to develop that, you know, get ready for their interviews. Yeah, I'm really excited to then survey folks that have used it, that gave us our email because then we'll really know how folks, you know that what they thought of the overall experience. I'm really excited for that. But I think by any measure, the uptake of the tool has been fantastic.
• 7:51
  Speaker A: Yeah, really cool stuff. So, yeah, stay tuned. Yeah, I can't wait to do that survey work too. So that'll be interesting. One other thing that happened, we're talking about events. So we did all these events on deferred enrollment and we decided that we were going to mine those events for some interesting content. And I wanted to share something. So I know you love this essay that Stanford has, which is the question is what matters most to you and why? It's been in the Stanford application for eons. And we had Paul Mani the third, who is an admissions rep from Stanford. He joined us for a panel on deferred enrollment and he happened to take some time just to talk about that essay because they asked that essay of whether you're applying deferred or regular, it doesn't matter. And he gave some really great advice that I wanted to share with you. He said, when it comes to like sitting down and writing this, he said, don't pressure yourself to find the final answer immediately. Start smaller. Don't get stressed on getting started. Just start with what matters most to you today and then keep asking why. So he said, they have this exercise that they call the five whys, and you go down a few levels until you feel you found something that actually is a through line. And he gave an example that I thought was kind of interesting. He said, you know, it's kind of like how ordinary habits can reveal, you know, something. So he says, what matters to me today might be getting up and showing up to work on time. Now why did I just write that down? You know, he's kind of imagining he's a candidate here. He's like, why did I write this that down? So go down a few levels. Like, why do I care about showing up for work on time? And you know, and it could be, oh, I know that others are depending on me and I don't want to let others down because I have a stress strong ethic around that or it could be something. So he's like, just keep asking yourself, why keep going down. Why do you have that ethic? And he said that it can be really useful and it's just an exercise as you're kind of pre writing to sort of force you to go beyond surface level stuff and uncover deeper motivations. So in Any event, he said that Stanford's actually less interested in what you claim matters most to you than they are in whether or not you can convincingly explain why it matters and how it shows up in your actions. So I know you'll have that essay. What do you think of that advice from him?
• 10:01
  Speaker B: I think it's absolutely fantastic. And, you know, the practice, the five whys. Absolutely, you know, really insightful, so really good advice. It's certainly not an essay that you can brainstorm and complete all within one sitting. This is a. And we've talked about this before. It's an essay that I think you need to percolate on and think about over a significant period of time, take notes as you're thinking about it, etc. Etc. Yeah, it's a super important essay. Even if you're not applying to Stanford. I challenge MBA applicants to draft a response to this essay as a, as a cornerstone to where, you know, their application process, wherever they're applying.
• 10:46
  Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's fair. So stay tuned because what we've done is we, we realized, we always do these events. We get these amazing transcripts from the events and we realized, you know, we should turn these into kind of articles on the site. So we've been. We started with Stanford, but we're. I think Wharton's up next and there's going to be several of these because we just get such great insights from the admissions reps that join us and. Yeah, so that. Stay tuned. There's a whole series kind of coming on this. And I have to give you credit, Alex, because this was an idea that you had about, you know, because you take these transcripts and feed them into our AI tool to help keep it educated. But then you're like, hey, we could also write articles based on these. Right. So that's where we're at. Which is great.
• 11:24
  Speaker B: Yeah, give me full credit. I like that.
• 11:26
  Speaker A: And I got. Well, I have to give a shout out to Lauren on our team who actually then shaped the article. So. Yeah, but yeah, no, definitely. Over on the website, we also have a piece, an admissions tip on background checks. This is something that, you know, if you were admitted in round one, you might be going through at this juncture, if you've, you know, sent in your deposit, just so you know. You know, schools do kind of look into your background, make sure that what you have in your application is actually accurate. And they do that by verifying your transcripts, checking with your employers about title, salary, date, dates, etc. So this is why you need to Be honest in your applications because some of the best schools will either for everyone or kind of randomly do background checks. So you got to be ready for that. And we have a whole sort of tip that explains how the process works. The other big news, Alex, is that London Business School published their class of 25 employment report. So as usual, I wanted to go over that with you. We did recently, I think it was a few weeks ago now. We talked about like, what was it insead and maybe Cornell. So this, we're getting to the tail end of the, you know, kind of cycle with these career reports coming out. But I'll give you as I have been doing the kind of metrics for the class of 25 followed by class of 24. So you can kind of compare and we'll just go through it. So the size of the class this year was 488. It's actually down slightly from 502, but you know, in the ballpark. And this is the statistic that I love, that LBs reports and that I don't see other schools reporting, that is reporting rate. So they literally say like, okay, how many students did we actually gather data from? Because there are some schools that, you know, they're not getting everyone to kind of weigh in and they had a 98% reporting rate. So they basically got, you know, to the bottom of what every student in that class was up to in terms of an employment situation.
• 13:14
  Speaker B: Except 10 of them.
• 13:15
  Speaker A: Yeah, well, okay, yes, yes, technically there are some. But I mean I think that if I have, if I had to guess, that's not that that's a high rate compared to some of the other schools out there who.
• 13:25
  Speaker B: No, I think it's a great rate. Yeah, but you said it. Everyone. I'm like, no, nearly, yes, 98%. Which computes to 10.
• 13:33
  Speaker A: There you go. So offers within three months. Of those seeking jobs, 88% had offers. That's up 1% from last year. Those with who had accepted an offer within that same three month window were 86%. That's unchanged. There were 21 students in the class who started their own business. That number is basically the same as last year. The mean salary this year is 123,000 US and that's up from 116. So they had almost a $7,000 rise in annual mean salary. And then in terms of they also, I love the way they do this there. They have this kind of career switch data too. So they literally tell you like what percentage of people changed industry, changed geography or changed both. So 45% of the class changed industry, 44% changed geography, and 32% changed both. And that 32% figure is interesting because last year that number was 21%. So they saw a lot of what I would argue flexibility in terms of people being able to move both industry and geography, which, again, that's a good sign to me.
• 14:40
  Speaker B: No, very, very good.
• 14:41
  Speaker A: Yeah. And so now I'll give you the industry placement and then the geography and let you weigh in on everything overall. So the number one industry, as you would expect, was consulting. 40% went into that field. That's down 2%. 26% went into finance, unchanged from last year. Tech saw 21%, also unchanged. And then diversified corporates, 11%, and that's also unchanged. Consulting, obviously, you know, still at the top of the heap there in terms of where people go. 43% of the graduates landed in with. With jobs, job offers landed in the UK. That's down 2%. It was 45% last year. 11% went to Africa and the Middle East. That's down a few percentage points. It was 14% last year. 12% went to Southeast and East Asia. That seems flat from last year. North America, 12% went to North America. That's up 2 percentage points. Latin America, 10%, Europe, not including the UK, 8%. That's down from 9%. And then they sent 2% to South Asia. And it seems like they did not have anyone go in there last time. Or maybe they were kind of measuring this slightly differently, but I don't have a number for that from last year. So those are the figures. What do you make of this, Alex? There are a few things that jump out at me, but I'm curious to hear what you think.
• 16:04
  Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, obviously these are good numbers for London business School relative to previous years, et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, one thing that does stand out, we talked about this when we discussed insead, is the lower mean compensation for European programs versus their peers in the United States. So that should be factored in when folks are deciding on their MBA destination, I suppose. Obviously, the geographic diversity is really interesting for London business schools. So, you know, 43% staying in the UK, potentially 42%.5 staying in London. I'm not sure many of them are coming down to Cornwall, for example, but that geographic diversity is interesting, and this would be symptomatic of being a European MBA program. INSEAD will be somewhat similar in this regard. Africa, Asia, North America, Latin America and so forth. And that's what Financial Times really rewards Right, yeah. In terms of their rankings. So that's why some of these European schools get a heavy boost. Whereas if we look at the geographic diversity of the top programs in the United states, it's like 95% plus are remaining in the United States. Even though they might be going from the east coast to the West coast or etc. Etc. They're still staying in that one country. So I think that's interesting. Other than that, Graham. Yeah. I just think the numbers are very decent for London Business School.
• 17:52
  Speaker A: Yeah. One thing that stood out to me is that increase in salary, because we did see. I'm looking back and we saw INSEAD's average salary come down a little bit. And I think if I'm going to quickly do the math in my head, I think INSEAD lands at more like 116, 118 at most, and LBs is up there at 123, 124. So. So if we're talking about dollar terms, so. Yeah, so. So LBS did well there. I love the reporting that they get. You know, they just give us a lot of data, which I think is terrific and a testament to their leadership over there. The other thing I would say that always surprises me and I feel like I probably said this last year too, but I am surprised at the high percentage of people that are going into all these markets except Europe. Right. So 8% went to Europe. That's less than they sent to North America. And I don't know if that's sort of. Sort of. I don't know, is that like saying something about job opportunities in Europe or is it saying something about opportunities in America? Like, I don't know what that's saying, but it is interesting and probably a fallout because of Brexit. I'm guessing that these numbers must have looked different before, like if we go back, you know, five years, 10 years. But it's, it is interesting to me. I mean, because you're so close to the continent.
• 19:01
  Speaker B: Yeah, we should do that. Obviously, we've got the data and we could get Elliot to do a report on that switch because clearly it's a Brexit issue.
• 19:10
  Speaker A: Must be. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:12
  Speaker B: A ridiculous decision by the uk. No, I'm not getting into politics.
• 19:17
  Speaker A: Yeah. But I also thought it was kind of fascinating to see that they're sending 12% to the US, which that's a number that's been coming up. And so that's, that's probably good news for them, you know, to find.
• 19:26
  Speaker B: But again, I'm not sure I mean, it's great that they produce those switching percentages, but they didn't do it at a granular level. Right. So are those US students going to London to return to the US or are they students not from the US going to the us? It would be super interesting to have that granular level of data.
• 19:51
  Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. So in any event, I think in a choppy market, LBS has done pretty well holding the line. Compensation story is kind of quietly strong, I would argue, given what we saw to insead. So in any event, always fun to look at these and unpack the numbers. As some of you probably have noticed, there were some extra episodes in the feed on the podcast. I sat down with the dean at smu. Cox had a great conversation that's now available wherever you're listening to this episode. And then also we ran an episode about financing business school where I was able to convince one of the co founders of Juno. It's a guy who's named Chris, he's an HBS grad and they, you know, he sort of talked through how do you pay for business school? How do most people kind of go about doing it? What? You know, and even some fun questions. I don't know. I'm a very hands on. I need examples to understand things. So I was like, okay, if I borrow all this money for business school, what am I actually paying back? You know, after I graduate or whenever the loan kicks in, like, how much per month am I going to have to pay back? And he had all these stats and facts and figures. So it's very useful to kind of talk through. So enjoy that episode. If you're listening, you can find it in this feed. Otherwise, Alex, I think we can talk about candidates. As always, people can write to us@infoearadmit.com use the subject line wiretaps. But Alex, anything else from you before we talk about these candidates you've picked out?
• 21:12
  Speaker B: Let's kick on.
• 21:13
  Speaker A: All right, so this is WireTaps candidate number one. Our first candidate this week has four schools on the target list and they are Chicago, Booth, Harvard, Kellogg and Stanford. This person's been working in tech. They're hoping to start as soon as next fall, although it's unclear because they have, as you'll hear, a slightly interesting strategy. They want to work in consulting after business school and so they've got companies like Bain, BCG and Deloitte on the list. They have a perfect 4.0 GPA. They've been working for eight years. They're located in the US and they want to head out to the west coast ultimately in terms of where they'd love to land. They studied business and accounting as an undergrad and they've been working for eight years as an IT director and an information security director. Now they haven't yet taken a test, they say. They say that they're hoping to get a waiver but are willing to take an exam. And we'll unpack that, that one in a moment. And they did also mention they're thinking Kellogg part time evening or accelerated full time. They're not sure there and then Stanford would be preferred and that would obviously have to be full time. They mentioned they have like a some certifications, one of which is a pmp. I never remember what that stands for, but I think it's project management something or other. And they said they're gonna eventually get a CPA once they finish the MBA. Anyway, they mentioned they have owned businesses and have some copyrights and trademarks due to a brand that they own and they're wondering if their profile is good enough. They said I did have one admissions officer ask me why I'm even getting an mba, but I really want one and feel they're valuable. Also scholarships would be cool, but I plan on self funding if scholarships are unavailable. So what do you make of this candidacy, Alex?
• 23:05
  Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I think there's quite a lot to potentially discuss here. I mean let's just assume that they do have a strong experiential profile, right? In terms of their work experience. They talk about, you know, a director, IT director, so that's, I mean some properties, some good leadership there, etc. They talk about their own businesses so some entrepreneurial stuff there. So I got to imagine that their professional record can really help them stand out a little bit. We don't really know what makes them tick outside of work and I think as someone that's also more entrepreneurial outside of their regular job, maybe that's how they spend their additional time, which is fine. And They've got a 4.0 GPA. I always admire folks that have a strong academic record over a four year period. I think there's a lot to be said for that commitment as well as the fact that it shows that they're smart and stuff. So all that I think is really good. I worry though that there's some issues in terms of their approach to the application, this idea that they want to waive the test if at all possible or however they couched it. I think they need to take the test, they need to Take it for a couple of reasons. One is if they've got a 4.0 GPA, then they should be able to prep well and get a test score that helps them stand out further. And the top schools that they're targeting aren't going to let them waive the gmat. Now I don't know Kellogg's rule for their part time program, maybe there is an avenue there. But if, if they're looking at any of these programs on a full time basis, which I imagine that's Stanford for sure, they're going to need to take the test.
• 25:04
  Speaker A: Yeah. There are no waivers.
• 25:06
  Speaker B: No. So there are no waivers there. So they're going to need to do that. And I think it's also important to get a really strong test score because they've got eight years of experience. Experience. So there's some distance between when they graduated with that great GPA to show that really good test score.
• 25:24
  Speaker A: Right.
• 25:25
  Speaker B: I imagine that they, you know, even if they've stated this season, if they really want a full time experience, it's going to be next season in the application process. I mean unless, unless you get the doctor in a row for round three, but round three is going to be more challenging and so forth. So, you know, maybe it's a question for them. Apply Kellogg part time this season because they could probably do that a little bit later in the cycle and if not successful, then have a really strong approach for full time applications for next season. I really admire the fact that, that they've been questioned on why they want to pursue an mba because obviously they've already been successful as an entrepreneur as well as a tech leader. So the fact that they really understand this value and so forth I think is a real positive. I just hope that they better develop their approach and strategy.
• 26:30
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting. There were a few things that jumped out at me. I mean one is as you say, they have to, to take a test if they want to go to Stanford or Harvard or you know, most of these schools full time, like the very top schools are not allowing you to waive. And so it sounds like they may not know that. So they need to take the test. And then you're, you're, you're kind of honing in on something I think is really important. Just more generally speaking, I think this is, you know, you put kind of your admissions officer hat on here and you look at a profile and you say, okay, eight years of experience for ogpa, terrific. But that was like eight years ago. And by the time they start Business school, that'll be almost like 10 years ago or something. Right? So it's kind of, you know, you want that recent indication of academic readiness and that's where the tests can really help. So they need to understand that, that as a slightly older candidate having that recent indicator would be really important. And then as you know, the last thing is, as you also point out, we just don't know a lot about what they do outside of work. So hopefully they have a robust profile there because it's, you know, these top schools are, you know, no matter how impressive your work experience is, you need to be the full package. And that means a great test score, interesting extracurriculars and so on. They may look at all that and just decide, oh wow, I'm just, I'm going to apply part time for Kellogg and I'll do that. And that's a terrific program and it just, but it has a slightly different set of thresholds and requirements and there might be waivers on tasks and things like that. So yeah, they need to decide that. But as you point out, maybe they do that now and take an approach that they could apply to some full time in the fall if it doesn't work out with, with Kellogg part time. So we'll see. I do want to thank them for sharing their profile. Really interesting stuff. And it gave us an excuse to talk about some elements of admissions that are important. But let's move on and talk about wiretaps. Candidate number two. So our second candidate this week is applying to Columbia, London business school, Kellogg, NYU and Yale. This person is a US diplomat and they have had 10 years of experience across Latin America, Asia, Eurasia. They are currently posted in Moscow. They have aims on a career in kind of marketing. After business school they had a 3.2 GPA as an undergrad. They've taken the GRE and got a 319 and they're not happy with that. So they're going to be retaking it again. In fact, by the time this episode airs, I believe they will have retaken it. So hopefully that goes well. They want to land in New York City after business school and they do say that, you know, their career has been focused on crisis response, policy analysis, stakeholder coordination and public facing. Engagement in complex political and diverse social environments. They indicate that they've led intra agency initiatives. They've advised senior leadership which includes ambassadors, US Congresspeople, foreign Supreme Court justices and so on. And they've, you know, managed high stakes issues involving reputational risk, public trust and institutional decision making. So A lot of interesting stuff in their career. I will mention they have a graduate degree as well and in the graduate degree they had a 3.7. So much better than that 32 from under undergrad. They also have some strong performance in quantitative coursework. And again, as I said, they're retaking the GRE and hoping to get a higher score than that 319. So they want to use the, you know, business degree to transition out of, you know, the kind of public sector and into sort of more marketing related stuff. They talk about marketing, media, etc. So any, you know, any thoughts on this, Alex, that they did throw in that they're LGBTQ and you know, again, hoping to land in New York. So what do you think of their school selection, their profile? All of it?
• 30:18
  Speaker B: Yeah, they're 37 years old too and I think that's important to recognize. So yeah, 10 years of experience but that's on top of then the graduate degree, etc. Etc. Yeah, so they're going to be, I mean we use this term non traditional candidate quite loosely, but they're the quintessential non traditional candidate in my book. I mean their experience has got to be fascinating. I mean, crikey, I didn't realize we had or we, the U.S. had folks in Moscow at all. I mean, obviously with the current crisis and so forth. So yeah, I mean, kudos. This experience has got to be absolutely outstanding that they've had or are having and so forth. So schools will be really attracted to that, I'm sure. But the caveats will be, all right, this person's 37. How are they going to fit with the 25 and 26 year olds that are generally our median student in the program and how are they going to fully embrace and engage and participate? So they just need to make sure that they overcome those potential questions in the minds of the admissions officers. And then in terms of their goals, obviously they're using the MBA as a major pivot, which makes perfect sense. But there's a couple of things again as adcom that I'm going to be really questioning. One is the actual outcome pathway that they're looking for, are they passionate about it, committed to it, and so on and so forth. I don't want them in our program just fishing around trying to find an opportunity. I want them coming to our program knowing what opportunities that they're seeking because they're going to need to do that as an older candidate and be very deliberate about it.
• 32:23
  Speaker A: Right.
• 32:23
  Speaker B: And you know, again, that that gets to the other thing that I think is really important. How realistic will it be for someone a little bit further in their career to take advantage of our career resources and to pivot in the way that they're passionate about pivoting. So if they can overcome that too, then that's going to go a long way. They're going to retake the GRE or they'll have retaken the GRE by the time this show airs. If they can come back with sort of a 325, 326 GRE, which I think is what they're predicting with a stronger quant score, then. Yeah. I mean, frankly, Graham, I don't know that we've had a more non traditional candidate than this for a long time, but their experience has got to be absolutely fascinating.
• 33:18
  Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I, you know, this is the kind of person you definitely want to get a cup of coffee with and learn about, you know, what they're.
• 33:23
  Speaker B: Oh, a beer.
• 33:24
  Speaker A: Yeah. Or a beer. Yeah. As you would.
• 33:26
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 33:27
  Speaker A: And just understand. Yeah. What they've, you know, these experiences which would be so valuable to have in the classroom. So I get all that. I think, you know, they. Yeah, there's a lot to like, I will say, you know, being older and having that lower undergraduate gpa, which for better or for worse is, you know, something that they look at, does lead me to say, yeah, they need a high GRE score in this case. So I'm glad they're retaking and hopefully that went well. And as you say, they can get up into the mid-320s or better, that that would help because there is the grad GPA at 3.7, which tells a different story and helps. But, you know, this is all like 10 years ago or something. Right. So. So we need something, as I said with the first candidate, that suggests kind of recent academic readiness. But I do, you know, I like the candidacy. I think that of the schools on their list, which they said in order are kind of Columbia, Kellogg, Yale, Stern, lbs. I think one of these schools at least will be interested in this candidate, assuming they can, as you say, spell out a career goal that's compelling and interesting, but also doesn't seem like a major. It'd be great if there was some link to the public sector or to the type of work they've been or maybe the regions that they've worked in extensively. That would help kind of hold this all together as some glue to make it more palatable. Because you're right, some employers will be like, whoa, this person's Going to be like, you know, 40 when they graduate or something. Like we're, you know, we normally hire, you know, 20 something. So they need to think about what sort of roles they would want and how they can make sure that it's palatable. So in any event though, very interesting and I agree they might be one of the more interesting candidates we've come across recently in terms of being non traditional. So I want to wish them the best of luck and thank them for sharing their profile. Let's move on and talk about wiretaps. Candidate number three. So our final candidate, Alex, this week is one that you picked from Decision Wire and this person applied to Columbia, Wharton, Yale. They got into Columbia and Yale and I guess they didn't get into to Wharton but they're now deciding between those two. So Columbia or Yale. They had a 337 on the GRE and a 4.0 GPA. So talk about running the table in terms of your numbers. They're located in the northeast, they're in their late 20s, they'd had five years of work experience in IT and they're hoping to get into product management for tech strategy in the legal tech fintech domain. One or the other there's, as I said, they're choosing between Yale, which has offered them a 75% scholarship and has a much lower cost of living, they said, versus Columbia which is an MBA Ms. Which I guess in computer science or something. Right. It's a, It's a tech MBA degree where they have a 50% scholarship but they point out higher cost of living so they'll have more, more debt. They're wondering if the dual degree plus the New York City location materially improves one's chances of getting a PM job after business school so that they could justify the extra cost. So what do you say to this, Alex?
• 36:41
  Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I think this is an interesting question where we won't have, it's not black and white in terms of the answer, but I would look at these potential roles that they're interested in product management, tech strategy in and they're very specific. The legal tech and fintech areas. I would look at where are those jobs and if they are concentrated in New York City or there's a preponderance of them in New York City that does give Columbia a pretty significant advantage because they're probably the types of firms that you've got to network with quite intensely and potentially do some in semester type work. I don't know this. I'm sort of making it up a little bit. But these would be the sorts of things I would be thinking about as I make my final decision. I mean, I get that there's some financial implications for choosing Columbia over Yale, but I would really scrutinize, well, what are the advantages of being in New York City during my mba? So that would be something I would scrutinize quite highly. There's obviously, you know, Columbia is in the tier above Yale, so you would imagine there should be some scholarship differential. But yet for this type of career goal, I gotta think being in New York is going to be an advantage. Graham.
• 38:15
  Speaker A: Yeah, And I just want to clarify one thing. So the degree is the MBA Ms. That they offer, which is in engineering and applied science. Right. So it's a, it's, so it's, it, it's tech, but it's not computer science, purely.
• 38:26
  Speaker B: Right.
• 38:26
  Speaker A: So it's a little bit broad. You know, you asked them and they said it takes the same time. Right. So you go through the program two year, so there's no issue there. The only thing that I would say is, you know, I would, if I were them, I would do some interviews with tech companies and just informational interviews and find out what they think. You know, like, do you need this extra degree or not? Because if you don't, obviously Yale's a lot less in terms of the cost, and it's a pretty short train ride from Yale and New Haven down into Manhattan if you need to go network. So there are. You can make the argument for the other side there. Yeah, but I also, there's a question of fit. I mean, these are different schools, different sizes, different, very different locations. So they should think about where they'd be comfortable as well. But I do feel, you know, they're in a great position. I mean, they have these nice scholarship offers at both programs. These are both excellent schools. And like you said, neither the jobs that they want after business school are not going to do structured, what I would call structured recruiting, as, you know, where they come to campus and hire like 20 kids every year. So this is going to be more. Go out, find these companies, do the networking. So that's a very fair point. And if those companies are in New York, you'd have an argument there. Right. So, yeah, tough call here. Like you say, not black and white. But I want to congratulate them on these pretty astonishing results and great money from these schools. So, yeah, champagne problems, as we like to say.
• 39:47
  Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. Best of luck to them for making the right choice. Well, the right choice will be the choice they make.
• 39:52
  Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. They can't go wrong.
• 39:54
  Speaker B: There's no counterfactual, as I get told.
• 39:58
  Speaker A: So in any event, I want to thank them for sharing their acceptances and congratulate them once again. Alex, thanks to you for picking out these candidates this week. Some really interesting stories and admissions elements to discuss. I'll see you next week. We'll do it all again.
• 40:11
  Speaker B: Very good. Stay safe, everyone. Take care.