Latest / General Magic & The Soul of Tech / Ep. 5 | Vision as a Double-Edged Sword | Kris Rodriguez

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Ep. 5 | Vision as a Double-Edged Sword | Kris Rodriguez · General Magic & The Soul of Tech

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_0: This is Mike Stern.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_1: And I'm Tom "Hersh" Hershenson.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_1: Welcome to General Magic & The Soul of Tech.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_2: We believed we were building something that would change the world, and in some ways we did.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_2: In others, we didn't understand what we were setting in motion.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_2: The story of General Magic isn't over.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_2: We're still living inside what it started.
• 0:28
  Our special guest today is Kris Rodriguez,
• 0:31
  who was one of the original HR people at General Magic and who helped to build
• 0:36
  the team there.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_1: It's great to have you, Kris, on the show.
• 0:39
  You have a unique perspective because you were one of the people who played in
• 0:44
  in my estimation, one of the most important parts at the company.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_1: You were a gatekeeper.
• 0:50
  You were at the front lines of deciding who got to be on the island and
• 0:54
  who didn't get to set foot on the island.
• 0:57
  And you've had a tremendous career since then with a lot of insight about all kinds
• 1:04
  of important aspects of individuals' career trajectories
• 1:08
  and how they experience work and how organizations contend with the challenge
• 1:13
  of talent and workforce.
• 1:15
  But before we get into your more recent career,
• 1:18
  what do you remember of your job of General Magic?
• 1:21
  What to you was kind of the core of that work,
• 1:24
  the most important thing that you were doing as part of that team.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_3: Great question.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_3: And first of all, thank you for having me.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_3: It's great to connect with old friends and reminisce.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_3: You know, honestly the first thing that comes to my mind was I was a baby.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_3: I do wanna say, because I think I'm still twenty-six.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_3: It was one of my first careers.
• 1:46
  I actually worked for a major computer company before General Magic:
• 1:51
  if anyone remembers Digital Equipment Corporation, that little company.
• 1:55
  But yeah, gosh,
• 1:56
  coming to Magic it was like a graduate school experience,
• 2:01
  maybe even better,
• 2:02
  with the power of the creativity that existed in that company,
• 2:06
  just walking in the door, right?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_3: You saw it.
• 2:09
  And the weight of that responsibility to maintain that kind of unique culture coming
• 2:15
  in was felt right away.
• 2:18
  And I felt very lucky and to be a part of that team,
• 2:22
  in some ways not worthy to be a part of that community.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_3: And so yeah, I think gatekeeper, is that the word that you use, Tom?
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_3: That is that's a good way of describing it, right?
• 2:36
  How do you how do you maintain this level of connection of the people,
• 2:42
  the creativity, the space for trying and failing and redoing.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_3: And I do remember saying no to people.
• 2:53
  And I do remember having hard conversations with hiring managers about decisions
• 3:00
  where,
• 3:01
  you know, we wanted the best people that were really gonna serve the community.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_3: And yeah, that was that was definitely an important aspect and element of my job for sure.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_0: But what did the best mean back then?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_0: What were you selecting for and and why did people not make it through the gate?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_3: Yeah.
• 3:20
  You know,
• 3:20
  the word that comes to my mind is integrity,
• 3:24
  enthusiasm,
• 3:26
  and a bit of wantingness to play,
• 3:30
  to to be in a space of yeah,
• 3:33
  play, which probably encouraged the enthusiasm and the creation.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_3: And just really people that were gifted in their craft.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_3: At the end of the day we were hiring folks that knew what they were doing.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_3: This wasn't a training ground... well maybe for some that went on to do very well.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_3: But coming in with real of standalone rigor of their own, for sure.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_1: One of the things that's striking to me about what you just said is the concept of play.
• 4:02
  There really is something,
• 4:04
  and I hate to use the word,
• 4:06
  but I will,
• 4:07
  magical about being in a work environment where it doesn't seem arduous or
• 4:15
  if it feels arduous.
• 4:16
  There's also a sense of,
• 4:18
  and and here I'm reaching for words because what defines the human experience
• 4:23
  of play?
• 4:23
  But there's some sort of fun,
• 4:25
  and there's some sort of sense of,
• 4:28
  you know, delight is just around the corner, and you keep striving for that.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_1: How long do you feel like it took for it to click with you?
• 4:37
  These are the kind of things that are going to differentiate between someone
• 4:42
  who perhaps is really excellent at their craft,
• 4:46
  but they're just not quite the right fit versus somebody else who has
• 4:50
  that same excellence but is the right fit.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_3: I mean, I think it's something that you felt walking in the door.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_3: And so how did I know that?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_3: You know, it was the words that were used to me to describe the culture.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_3: It was when you walk in the door and you see, the logo of General Magic right?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_3: What is this?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_3: You know, what's happening here?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_3: What's the message that's being conveyed to me in this imagery?
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  I knew a couple of the people that worked at General Magic,
• 5:27
  so knowing them and their enthusiasm and hearing why they thought it was so special.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_1: Well, part of what I hear you saying is that intuition is involved and people have a feeling.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_1: Something just clicks.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_1: The other thing that occurs to me is that you were attuned to all these things.
• 5:48
  I mean,
• 5:48
  there's no guarantee that a candidate walks through the door and notices the logo
• 5:53
  and thinks deeply about what it reflects and what it embodies and what it has to say
• 5:58
  about that organization.
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  And and my sense is,
• 6:01
  that a through line of your career has been that ability to see beyond what's
• 6:08
  in front of a person to kind of get get beneath the surface and understand
• 6:14
  the larger context of a situation.
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  SPEAKER_3: I mean, I that's the only way I know how to operate.
• 6:20
  This is the heart of my coaching practice:
• 6:22
  is really helping leaders,
• 6:24
  leadership teams really come to their own humanity, right?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_3: It starts within them.
• 6:30
  We've been doing a whole lot of unwinding
• 6:33
  of some old school superficial leadership presence, and ways of being.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_3: It's not the cliche of, bring your whole self to work.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_3: There's no door you walk through figuratively or otherwise if anymore.
• 6:46
  We are who we are and how do we bring out the nuances of each of us
• 6:52
  into like how we lead and how we show up and work.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_3: So the crux of my business is helping to get at the heart of the human element of it.
• 7:00
  You know,
• 7:01
  interesting question to say:
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  how much my experience at Magic impacted how I think about work,
• 7:08
  how I think about leadership.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_3: Imagine a world where I stayed at a Digital Equipment Corporation.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_3: Right?
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  And that was the model,
• 7:17
  for which, you know, that was very traditional leadership back in that day.
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  I wonder how much General Magic did play a role for me and how I think about humans
• 7:26
  in the connection in the work.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_0: What was it like?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_0: You know, we shipped in late '94, went public in early '95.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_0: Six months later, the bottom had fallen out.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_0: What was that experience like?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_0: How did you deal with it?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_0: How did you help people deal with it?
• 7:40
  You stayed through the pivot to Portico and the natural language based business,
• 7:45
  which also was too early and eventually didn't make it.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_0: What was it like?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_0: And again, how did that inform the way you teach and council now?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_3: Yeah.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_3: You know, it was it was a heartbreak, I will say, right?
• 7:59
  And it was a complexity of things,
• 8:01
  but you know, to to not see it happen the way we envisioned it was the heartbreak.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_3: And then to see people move on, was the next level heartbreak from that.
• 8:12
  You know valiant efforts to turn the company around and shift assets and move
• 8:18
  into new spaces,
• 8:19
  but that was a shift in culture,
• 8:22
  that was a shift in leadership,
• 8:24
  that was a shift in mission, that was a shift in yeah, that culture left with it.
• 8:30
  And through that transition,
• 8:32
  a lot of our friends went on to do some cool things, not too far after that.
• 8:37
  So I'm thinking about the last part of your question,
• 8:39
  you know, how's that shapes me going forward?
• 8:42
  You know,
• 8:42
  now I have to tell you,
• 8:44
  that has been the cycle that I have experienced being in
• 8:48
  the Silicon Valley my whole career.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_3: And you know, maybe it was the nature of the time, right?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_3: Because if you think about General Magic not going where we want it, but you think, guess what?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_3: The internet's going like gangbusters, right?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_3: And that's the new wave that's coming through.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_3: So there's always a next thing, right?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_3: And then then there was a bust right, that went down.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_3: Just so happens in my career at that time, I pivoted industries for a variety of reasons.
• 9:18
  But I've I've been working in biotech the last 25 years or so,
• 9:24
  and Genentech was my first client.
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  SPEAKER_3: So here we go...
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_3: Launch, launch, launch, launch, launch... life saving drugs and technology.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_3: And you know the biotech field the last five years or so has gone through its own, shifting.
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  SPEAKER_3: And so what I know and what I've experienced in my career is: things change.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_3: You know, we we we have a lot of hype.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_3: And then we have a lot of reality.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_3: And things live on and then new things come up at the same time.
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  SPEAKER_3: And I feel like that juxtaposed to my dad's career.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_3: Defense contractor, Northrop Grumman forty years, stamp and and done.
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  SPEAKER_3: And that is not the world I've ever experienced in my career.
• 10:13
  So you know,
• 10:14
  the way AI is penetrating the corporate world,
• 10:18
  new tools,
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  new workflows,
• 10:20
  and all the rest, you've gotta see massive anxiety and fear on people's part.
• 10:24
  Again, given what you just said about,
• 10:26
  people went on, things changed, people learned how to do new things.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_0: What do you tell people now about how that's gonna affect them?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_3: Yeah.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_3: You know, I heard this quote and I repeat it all the time.
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  And it's that Amara's Law, right,
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  like we tend to overestimate the impact of technology in the short term
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  and underestimate its impact in the long term.
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  SPEAKER_3: And I just keep thinking about that because I wonder where we are, in that timeline.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_3: Right?
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  And, are we at that beginning where we're raising the flags now,
• 11:00
  of the potential rewards and the potential risks,
• 11:04
  which I love we're having those conversations.
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  But I just do wonder the things we're even thinking about now,
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  what's the reality look like decades from Like can we even fathom what
• 11:17
  that looks like in reality?
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  SPEAKER_3: I also will say that, you know, I'm in a world where I'm reading all the risks.
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  I'm reading all the same articles and I have young people in my life
• 11:29
  that have very specific concerns about the environment.
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  But I also want to live in a world where I can see the benefits of this technology
• 11:39
  when it comes to certainly the the medical field right when I look
• 11:45
  at what's possible in the acceleration and the development of of life saving drugs.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_3: So, I think with all these technologies, right?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_3: There are going to be pros and cons and there's gonna be bad actors.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_3: And so this is why I said yes to this conversation.
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  You guys are thinking about and starting that conversation about what are
• 12:08
  the guardrails we need to be thinking about that we can possibly conceive of now.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_3: So what what do I tell people?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_3: I I will give you one short little story.
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  SPEAKER_3: I recently befriended someone who is very young in their career.
• 12:24
  They graduated from a well-known,
• 12:27
  well-respected university, got scooped up into San Francisco, into the AI world.
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  SPEAKER_3: And you know, she she's in it.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_3: This is this is her field now.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_3: And I had lunch with her last week.
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  And what she reminded me of was the bubble that we are in in Silicon Valley
• 12:47
  and how most of the world is not really aware of what's happening with AI or
• 12:54
  the potential for AI.
• 12:55
  The day to day out beyond the bubble that we live in,
• 13:00
  really don't know, what's coming or or how to use it or how to engage with it.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_3: It's just not even in the masses at this point.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_1: No, I think that's a great point.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_1: I mean, there is this idea of of people's awareness and consciousness.
• 13:12
  And I certainly remember that from back in the day at General Magic,
• 13:16
  where we had such a clear sense of the vision that we were trying to bring to life.
• 13:20
  But, you know,
• 13:22
  drive two hundred miles away from Silicon Valley and,
• 13:25
  you know,
• 13:25
  in Central Valley,
• 13:26
  California, no one was concerned with, anywhere, anytime communication.
• 13:30
  And if you had showed them a prototype of what we were working on,
• 13:33
  I think you'd get,
• 13:34
  you know,
• 13:35
  puzzled looks as opposed to any sort of understanding or enthusiasm about it.
• 13:40
  Having said that,
• 13:41
  I don't know if you saw this in the New York Times so Christopher Olah was invited
• 13:46
  by Pope Leo.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_3: Did you read that?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_0: Right.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_0: Yeah.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_3: Interesting, the Vatican is taking notice and has some things to say.
• 13:54
  So it is making these political and apparently religious circle conversations,
• 14:01
  and certainly in Silicon Valley,
• 14:03
  but I I do think,
• 14:04
  we have to remember it's really not affecting a lot of people in terms
• 14:08
  of their day-to-day at this point.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_3: I was curious what you thought about why the Pope might be entering the conversation.
• 14:18
  Yeah, well I think the encyclical summarized his attempt to pivot the church toward
• 14:23
  a more social consciousness and more awareness of the potential bad impacts
• 14:29
  of innovation on people's ordinary lives and the need,
• 14:33
  you know,
• 14:33
  given the massive misallocation of capital right now into AI,
• 14:37
  to to look toward the things you're talking about— what are its potential effects
• 14:42
  on people's everyday lives?
• 14:43
  What can be done now to mitigate the downside,
• 14:47
  to provide safety nets,
• 14:48
  to look to humane,
• 14:50
  human centered innovation and to socialize,
• 14:54
  to spread the benefits of AI rather than keep them all concentrated in the hands of,
• 14:58
  five thousand people in San Francisco.
• 15:00
  So I think it was kind of a major policy statement on where he thinks
• 15:04
  the church ought to be going in terms of social awareness repositioning the church
• 15:08
  on the side of ordinary people against the the billionaires and
• 15:12
  and it was interesting that he had one of the Open AI founders there.
• 15:14
  Yeah, this is not new for the Catholic Church to be concerned about the moral
• 15:19
  and ethical implications of technologies.
• 15:22
  I remember the US Conference of Bishops and it wrestling with the question
• 15:26
  of nuclear weapons, for example, which is another kind of innovation.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_1: So this is not new terrain for them by any measure.
• 15:33
  I think that it speaks to the issue oft overlooked,
• 15:39
  if not completely ignored that innovation,
• 15:43
  design considerations in innovations are moral and ethical choices.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_1: I mean that's that's the bottom line.
• 15:51
  I don't read a lot about or hear a lot about venture capitalists
• 15:56
  or entrepreneurs talking about the moral and ethical dimensions of their work.
• 16:01
  And I think the Pope and the Catholic Church is drawing attention to that in
• 16:05
  an extremely, I don't want to just say appropriate way, but a crucial and vital way.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_1: That you know, that old Howard Zinn line about you can't be neutral on a moving train.
• 16:16
  And in the same way,
• 16:17
  there are decisions that a small group of people are making and
• 16:20
  that many people are not being consulted on or involved in the decision making that
• 16:24
  that are going to have profound effects for countless numbers of people.
• 16:30
  And to your point, Kris,
• 16:31
  tremendous effects,
• 16:32
  but effects that occur so slowly over time that we don't perceive in the moment
• 16:39
  the direction in which things are headed.
• 16:41
  Just to shift gears,
• 16:42
  you from Magic on have always been engaged in work that matters to you,
• 16:47
  and what I wonder is the leaders and the organizations who have the good fortune
• 16:53
  to have you as a consultant, what don't they understand when you come in?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_1: What are the the key things that just aren't on their radar?
• 17:02
  That they don't grasp around leadership and the human experience and what
• 17:09
  that human component needs to do or be for an organization to do as well
• 17:14
  as possible.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_3: Well, you know, leaders come in all forms and their own evolution, right?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_3: And I meet them all on many different paths, right?
• 17:25
  And it's really fun to have worked with a leader that is is already
• 17:31
  an enlightened state of their own leadership, right?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_3: Because then we're teaming together to bring that vision to other leaders.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_3: And the the others, which we'll call them, this place I start was is within them.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_3: Why do they want to lead?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_3: You know, what is their what is their vision?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_3: You know, what what inspires them?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_3: What is you know, we talked about mission and purpose.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_3: Like what is your mission and purpose as a leader?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_3: And we always start there.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_3: Because I think what I'm dispelling in that is the textbook.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_3: Decades ago we handed you literally instruction manuals, right?
• 18:14
  And on how to lead and here are the steps and here's the thing
• 18:18
  and here's how you give feedback and here's how you project yourself
• 18:21
  and here's how how you own a room and you know,
• 18:25
  those things maybe have a place in time,
• 18:27
  but I'm dispelling the the textbook of leadership and really helping them to connect
• 18:33
  to like why does this matter to you?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_3: Why does it matter to work in drug development?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_3: What what drew you, to drug development?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_3: You know, what drew you to the handheld device?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_3: Like what is it about that?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_3: Why are you passionate about that?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_3: What do you What do you envision that's possible because of this?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_3: And it's helping people connect there first.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_3: Because if they don't have it or if they don't know it, then you're just reading lines, right?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_3: And that doesn't resonate for people.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_3: It doesn't come through.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_0: Are most are most of them focused these days?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_0: You know, it it's about money and power, right?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_0: That's kind of the sense you get from the broliarchy, right?
• 19:12
  That the AI arms race is focused on in you know,
• 19:15
  at the Open AI,
• 19:16
  the the Musk versus Altman trial,
• 19:18
  the emails that came out were about how do I become a billionaire?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_0: Is Altman's question.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_0: Is that what you hear when you question people about why they're doing what they're doing?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_0: Or is it better than that?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_0: Okay.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_3: Mike, I will say those are not the people I work with.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_3: Those are not the those are not the they're they're they're not calling me.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_3: Right.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_3: Those people have their own belief system about what they are doing, right?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_3: So they're not calling me for enlightenment into their leadership.
• 19:47
  And I tell you what,
• 19:48
  I mean it is funny,
• 19:49
  but it's so frustrating because I I mean I've been out
• 19:53
  of grad school whatever number of years and we still have a book club
• 19:59
  that we formed post postgraduate school.
• 20:02
  A couple of us still would say, Okay,
• 20:04
  we're gonna keep reading all the books and it's kind of taken on a life of itself
• 20:08
  and we still read OD books and and I just get so frustrated because I'm like
• 20:14
  but these guys aren't doing any of this!
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_3: What the heck?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_3: Right?
• 20:19
  And we can name them,
• 20:20
  but it's it's it's that small group that don't behave the way you know,
• 20:27
  the way that we know really pulls people and and and delivers people.
• 20:32
  You know,
• 20:33
  there's the notion that people will claim their motives are one thing,
• 20:37
  but when you dig deep, you find out it's something else.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_1: And I I wonder, do you encounter people who do proclaim a pecuniary motive?
• 20:47
  You know,
• 20:47
  they I wanna I want us to go public and I'll have a ton of money
• 20:52
  and my life will be comfortable.
• 20:54
  And you dig deeper and you find out that if they really think about it,
• 20:57
  that's not what they're after.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_1: They're after a deeper source of or a different source of meaning.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_1: Does that happen or am I waxing poetic?
• 21:04
  Say I I mean I've not I've not heard that quote come out of any of my clients about
• 21:09
  the, you know, just want to make money.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_3: And and those people exist.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_3: The closest I get to that is the CEO that is under tremendous pressure to deliver.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_3: Right.
• 21:21
  So they may not be translating it in words for their own benefit,
• 21:25
  their own pocket,
• 21:26
  but the drive they are exhibiting, and maybe the demands they're they're seeking.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_3: Right, the push they have is you know, when you go public, as you know, forget about it.
• 21:38
  Like the pressure,
• 21:39
  like that is the expectation that that is what you're delivering back
• 21:42
  to shareholders, right?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_3: So that that's how I see it manifest.
• 21:47
  It's the system that we have when you you capture public money,
• 21:51
  you know,
• 21:52
  at the end of the day,
• 21:53
  we're probably all invested in those same markets that we're frustrated with, right?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_3: For our retirement benefits.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_3: And so I'm happy for that pressure, right?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_3: In a way.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_3: But it's also important to have these kinds of conversations, right?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_3: Where we're trying to hold people accountable.
• 22:12
  Well, I hope it's not mythology,
• 22:14
  but the culture of Magic when when you were interviewing people for jobs,
• 22:18
  you know,
• 22:18
  it was about their intensity and their passion and their commitment to trying
• 22:24
  to achieve the company's vision of everywhere,
• 22:26
  every time communication it was gonna make our lives better and all that.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_0: And they weren't focused on salary and they weren't focused on options.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_0: I I is that a little bit too over romanticized or was that really true?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_0: You can tell by your expression that it's a little over romanticized,
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_3: I think
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_0: maybe.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_3: I mean look, Maslow's Hierarchy still exists, okay?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_3: Like there's there's still we weren't underpaying people either, Mike.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_3: Let's be clear about that.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_3: We were paying we were paying a good
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_1: Weren't doing it for free.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_3: but with that being an equal playing field, right?
• 22:58
  The compensation aside being an equal playing field, Gosh, yes,
• 23:03
  it was about the mission,
• 23:04
  it was about the work,
• 23:05
  General Magic had a life of its own,
• 23:08
  not only what you were doing, but what it was like to work there.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_3: And I I think I was I was saying this to Tamara in our prep.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_3: I think it's the thing I've been trying to get back to for 30 years.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_3: And I hadn't really thought about it until we started chatting.
• 23:22
  And certainly when we get together occasionally for our reunions,
• 23:26
  it's the thing that I've been trying to get back to.
• 23:29
  I I that yeah,
• 23:31
  I mean, if I were in a certain kind of church I would stand up and yell, preach it.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_1: That is exactly the way I feel.
• 23:38
  It's and I remember when I was there,
• 23:41
  Jane Anderson said,
• 23:42
  This job's gonna ruin you because you'll never work at place
• 23:45
  that has this many talented people who are so united in trying to do something
• 23:52
  beyond just themselves.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_1: You'll never see this again.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_1: Magic was truly unique in that way.
• 23:57
  And I think that that was part of why it was such a powerful experience,
• 24:02
  not just because of the technological revolution that we lit the fuse on,
• 24:06
  but doing something that's that is,
• 24:10
  you know, the cliche phrase greater than yourself.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_1: That you're really trying to usher in something for the good of people far beyond the company.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_1: And we really bought into that.
• 24:20
  One thing Mike and I have kicked around is whether there was a kind of a a hubris,
• 24:25
  naive optimism enthusiasm for the vision.
• 24:28
  I mean,
• 24:28
  I don't think anybody at General Magic had to think that much about trying to get
• 24:32
  in touch with the vision.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_1: That was part and parcel of the deal.
• 24:36
  But did that blind us to thinking hard about the potential perils
• 24:41
  of what we were trying to usher in?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_1: I mean, is vision a double edged sword?
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_1: I guess is my question to you.
• 24:47
  Do you find people who their vision animates them and helps them be great leaders,
• 24:51
  but it also creates blind spots?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_1: Is that something that you see or that you have thoughts about?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_3: Wow, what what a great question.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_3: I think it definitely can create blind spots in a way by design.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_3: Right?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_3: Because the work you're trying to do in your stated vision is unbelievably hard.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_3: And likely just full of landmines and shouldn't be that easy to achieve.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_3: Nearly impossible to get to.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_3: And so in a way, the most compelling vision is going to blind you to those things.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_3: Yeah.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_1: That's such an excellent point.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_1: I never thought of it that way.
• 25:32
  But like it's so you know,
• 25:34
  you're trying to scale a a vertical ice wall,
• 25:38
  and there's no time for doubt,
• 25:39
  there's no time for second guessing, there's no time for maybe we can't do this.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_1: You really have to go full force, or else there's no way you're gonna surmount that.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_3: Yeah, I mean, that's definitely my advice.
• 25:52
  Now, can I answer the other side of that question that says then also,
• 25:58
  let's also have a conversation to manage,
• 26:01
  the potential risks, that might come our way.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_3: Right.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_3: It's not the maybe on stage story or the recruitment story.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_3: Or the team event story, but certainly don't go blind to it.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_3: And I think that's the message that you've been telling with the story of General Magic, right?
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_3: And that's also I think what a successful business should be doing.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_3: So I don't want to say blindly follow the vision.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_3: You're not gonna blindly walk up Everest, right?
• 26:31
  You are going to hold that vision like nobody's business,
• 26:34
  but you're gonna plan and you're gonna think about the potential risks,
• 26:38
  and figure out how to navigate around them.
• 26:41
  That leads me to an off-the-wall question,
• 26:42
  which is how much of your work involves helping people understand the concept
• 26:47
  of saying no,
• 26:48
  or the concept of setting something aside,
• 26:51
  or something... not just isn't worth doing, but it doesn't align with who they are.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_1: Is that a component of it?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_3: Boy, people don't like to say no to things.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_3: It's true.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_3: And especially when you've got two good ideas.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_3: Right.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_3: And how do you make those choices?
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_3: I mean, AI might be the example of that.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_3: Or like, wow, look at these great benefits.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_3: Wow, look at these, big concerns that we have.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_3: You know, it's a polarity there.
• 27:16
  But you know,
• 27:17
  in a strictly business context in my coaching practice,
• 27:20
  we talk about saying no a lot,
• 27:22
  and practice different ways of thinking about saying no,
• 27:26
  but it comes down to making what we call trade-off decisions.
• 27:30
  And bringing forward not just the no,
• 27:33
  but the why not now or why no now,
• 27:37
  and what are you saying yes to in service of knowing the loss of saying no
• 27:43
  to this now.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_3: And so trying to bring forward a full conversation around that to paint the picture.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_3: Like here are the choices.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_3: We're gonna say yes here.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_3: Understood that the trade-off of not doing this now is this.
• 27:58
  And I feel like when you have that full,
• 28:00
  and this is in a coaching context,
• 28:02
  but when you have that fuller conversation about what you're saying no to,
• 28:07
  it helps people understand those trade off choices that you're making.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_1: Yeah, I think that was sorely lacking.
• 28:13
  In our enthusiasm,
• 28:14
  we didn't tap the brakes or press pause at any moment to try to sort
• 28:19
  through what our enthusiastic yes about what we were trying to bring
• 28:23
  to life was also a no to.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_1: In the simplest example is anywhere, anytime communication.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_1: And for many of us, there are many times we experience that as the bane of our existence.
• 28:36
  You know,
• 28:36
  when you get a chime that you have a new email from your boss just as you're about
• 28:40
  to turn in for the evening, no one is delighted by that moment.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_1: And that was entirely foreseeable.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_0: Yeah,
• 28:47
  It sounds like we had some thoughts of what could be,
• 28:52
  but likely they weren't to the extent that we now experience
• 28:56
  that constant communication, right?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_3: Like I don't think we even knew how bad it could get.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_0: No, we only thought about how it would make our lives better.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_0: We did not think about how it would make them worse.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_0: We really didn't.
• 29:08
  I mean,
• 29:08
  we just we saw it as as something that was so enabling for everything from bringing
• 29:12
  the family closer together,
• 29:13
  to f friendships and community building and all the rest.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_0: We just didn't see it.
• 29:19
  I Tom, I don't know if you disagree with that,
• 29:21
  but I I don't remember sitting around talking about,
• 29:24
  you know,
• 29:24
  w we're creating the possibility that there'll never be any escape from work.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_0: I mean we never sat around and talked about that that I can remember.
• 29:33
  I I didn't give one thought, Mike,
• 29:36
  to how we were accelerating life, how we were creating intrusion after intrusion.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_1: Never occurred to me.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_1: It was unalloyed good.
• 29:47
  And it really gets to that point, Kris,
• 29:50
  that you brought up of when you're saying yes to something,
• 29:53
  you're saying no to something else.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_1: And to make those choices explicit and obvious, and as you also mentioned, thought out.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_1: People really examine or what a yes means in terms of the doors that that shut.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_1: You know, there are times in life where you cannot have it both ways.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_3: And I think with this AI, I mean, it's not going away.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_3: That train is not stopping.
• 30:19
  As I was just reading some of the latest articles out there,
• 30:23
  I didn't realize how much some of the AI leaders are
• 30:28
  the ones saying we need guardrails, we need I dare say regulation.
• 30:35
  I won't put words in their mouths,
• 30:36
  but they're out there first and forefront, concerned about safety.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_3: Yeah.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_3: Which is very
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_1: They have concerns.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_1: Yeah.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_1: Yeah.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_3: interesting and scary to me as the creators that they're that they're saying this.
• 30:51
  When the guys whose financial futures rest on AI triumphing are sounding the alarm,
• 30:57
  y you better take notice because they have billions of reasons not to clue anybody
• 31:03
  in that there's could be some bad outcomes from this.
• 31:06
  So yeah,
• 31:06
  I think that it's really telling that they are some of them are sounding
• 31:12
  the alarm quite loudly,
• 31:14
  and I think for some of them in a very sincere way,
• 31:16
  a very authentic way,
• 31:17
  some of them I think they've seen up close and it's it is disquieting to them with
• 31:22
  the technology might usher in.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_3: Yes.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_3: Yes.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_3: I mean I just reading and I'm not gonna be able to quote him exactly.
• 31:28
  So Christopher Olah,
• 31:29
  who was the Anthropic co-founder,
• 31:31
  he had three things to say and I'm not gonna remember them all,
• 31:33
  but the third one he said, "We are seeing things that are unnerving."
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_3: That's almost a quote of what he was saying.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_1: Yeah.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_1: Yeah.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_3: Like models that are re replication of the neuroscience of our own brains.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_3: That scares me more than anything I've been reading.
• 31:50
  The fact that they and yet,
• 31:53
  you know, it's like they're going on to to to to continue to develop these tools.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_3: And I think, okay, is this the strategy of enlisting the masses in helping to solve for that?
• 32:05
  I'm not sure I understand why being so forthright about the concerns
• 32:10
  that their own developers are are making.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_3: But it certainly then creates a space for more of us to have these conversations, right?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_3: Because we've said yes to AI.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_3: And so now what do we need to be concerned about today?
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_3: We can't probably anticipate future generations.
• 32:28
  And then I think about you mentioned earlier,
• 32:31
  we have loads of other technologies that can decimate societies.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_3: And somehow we haven't done that.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_3: Knocking on my wood desk.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_1: Not yet.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_3: Gosh, is this like that?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_3: Is this a nuclear bomb?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_1: It's it's also fire, right?
• 32:46
  And you know in other discussions we've talked about you have building codes,
• 32:51
  you have codes against having open flames,
• 32:53
  you have in the dry season,
• 32:55
  you know, fire risk warnings, you have emergency response to fires.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_1: Now, sometimes they're catastrophic failures in that approach.
• 33:03
  But the point is that there are things that are extremely risky
• 33:09
  and we've figured out ways to try to mitigate those risks,
• 33:13
  prevent them, respond to them, et cetera.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_1: My concern is twofold.
• 33:18
  First of all,
• 33:19
  that AI is so powerful and evolving so quickly that humans are unable
• 33:24
  to get our minds around what the risks are.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_1: And that second of all, various interest groups are uninclined to try to put up guardrails.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_1: Or have every reason to minimize the risk and paint people as Luddites and naysayers.
• 33:42
  Not only do we not understand the risks,
• 33:45
  but even for the risks we understand we're not gonna get there fast enough
• 33:48
  to head them off at the pass.
• 33:50
  Things are gonna spiral very quickly and we're not gonna act in with the you know
• 33:56
  as decisively and promptly as this technology requires.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_1: Other than that we'll be fine.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_3: I mean I so I gotta ask you guys have been thinking about this.
• 34:08
  Any places of traction that you're seeing or possibility conversations starting
• 34:15
  to be had or support you're starting to see that could help.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_0: Yes.
• 34:19
  One of the interesting things that's happening in terms of resistance
• 34:22
  to data centers is that it crosses the political divide.
• 34:25
  In the heart of MAGA America,
• 34:27
  coalitions are forming of people who voted for Trump three times
• 34:31
  and progressive Democrats to to do something about the environmental
• 34:35
  and social impacts of data centers.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_0: There was a town in in in Missouri where Trump carried the county by thirty-one points.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_0: It's heartland MAGA.
• 34:44
  Yet the people when they found out that the city council did a secret deal to enable
• 34:48
  a data center in their backyard, they initiated a recall election.
• 34:52
  All of the city councillors were recalled,
• 34:54
  the mayor was recalled, and they were replaced with people who said no.
• 34:59
  I mean that that's just one of many kinds of things that could happen in in terms
• 35:03
  of enlisting public resistance.
• 35:05
  But you know,
• 35:06
  I think we've learned from the oil companies and the tobacco companies that there's
• 35:09
  an awful lot of lip service to guardrails.
• 35:12
  And I don't take any of the things that the AI leadership right now,
• 35:17
  including Anthropic, are saying.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_0: I see it as much more like oil company.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_0: The you know, when Chevron, was all for reducing the use of fossil fuels.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_0: Yeah, right.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_0: You know, I I I just don't buy it.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_0: And so we've got a long way to go and a lot to learn about how to do it.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_0: But there but there's there's some green shoots out there.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_3: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 35:35
  Yeah, you know,
• 35:36
  my day job is for a company that part of what it does is technology,
• 35:43
  including AI,
• 35:44
  for large and sometimes smaller law firms,
• 35:48
  international law firms and large national law firms
• 35:51
  and corporate legal departments.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_1: And there's tremendous discussion about how to use AI responsibly in those contexts.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_1: And there's acute consideration given to mitigating risk around the use of AI.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_1: Various types of risks.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_1: There's a lot of anxiety about AI replacing lawyers.
• 36:13
  But once you get beyond that,
• 36:14
  there are a lot of leaders in organizations who don't see it
• 36:20
  as something that's going to put the whole department or the whole law firm out
• 36:23
  of work.
• 36:24
  Second of all,
• 36:25
  it's a reality that they have to deal with competitively
• 36:28
  and otherwise operationally.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_1: And third, that they have duties.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_1: They have legal duties to shareholders.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_1: They have rules of professional responsibility.
• 36:38
  And really wrestling with questions about what is both safe,
• 36:44
  appropriate use of AI and legal use of AI.
• 36:49
  So you know,
• 36:50
  I think that there are people trying to get their arms around this,
• 36:52
  but to your point, Kris,
• 36:55
  this idea that people live in so-called flyover states
• 36:58
  that people aren't even aware.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_1: It's interesting.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_1: You know, Mike's bringing up that no, no, no, there are people aware of a certain aspect of AI.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_1: I mean, undeniably, AI is about large data centers and fantastic energy consumption.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_1: I mean, that's intrinsic to it, right?
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_3: Yeah, right.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_1: So it's interesting.
• 37:19
  You know,
• 37:19
  if somebody from the AI world says to people in this town in Missouri,
• 37:22
  Missouri, no, no, no, you don't understand.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_1: It's this great technology.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_1: But a retort to it is, no, no, no, you don't understand.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_3: Trust me.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_1: It's built on the backs of X, Y, and Z.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_1: And there's that disconnect in both directions, it seems like there's a disconnect.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_0: In your leadership coaching are you seeing people be explicit about ethical guidelines?
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_0: You know, that they want their businesses to be ethical.
• 37:45
  What do they come to you for in terms of strengthening their ability to infuse
• 37:49
  that value into their organizations.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_0: You know,
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_3: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_0: what works?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_0: How how do you make that happen?
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_3: Yeah.
• 37:56
  So I mean in ethics in particular,
• 37:59
  there's definitely a a bias here, in who who I'm working with.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_3: And and by the way, coaching isn't a good turnaround tool, right?
• 38:06
  So if you've got some unethical and you know uncouth behaviors,
• 38:10
  coaching is not the solution that will change those behaviors.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_3: But gosh, I think you asked me a question about Magic and some of the qualities.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_3: And I think the first thing I said was integrity.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_3: Right?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_3: Integrity.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_3: I mean I want to deal with humans.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_3: I want to deal with humanity.
• 38:24
  And I think someone who shows up with a question or is presenting
• 38:30
  as questionable is does it have either that self awareness or the type of humanity
• 38:38
  and and empathy that I want in my life and that I think others thrive in.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_3: So it isn't a real question that I have to interface with for the most part to be honest.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_3: And those people aren't seeking my advice.
• 38:53
  But you know as I think about what will happen in the future,
• 38:57
  this dystopian world I want to believe this and you know by now I'm
• 39:01
  a glass half full gal.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_3: But I I foresee more space for humanity.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_3: Like when things are done for us, right?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_3: What does my life look like?
• 39:13
  And I hope that then enters more space for discussions about ethics,
• 39:20
  the the back and forth, of what it means to be ethical.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_3: Is there more space in the world for us to connect as humans and have these dialogues again?
• 39:30
  I mean, I,
• 39:31
  I want to be at the French cafes where we sit around all afternoon drinking coffee,
• 39:35
  smoking cigarettes, just kidding the cigarette part.
• 39:37
  But like philosophizing and like really getting in touch
• 39:42
  and questioning these things that are happening in the world,
• 39:45
  whether they be politics or technology or or medicine, or or ethics.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_3: And that's what I hope for.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_3: And it will take people maybe being awakened because they're hurt.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_1: Mm.
• 40:01
  But you know,
• 40:02
  like in the life sciences and in biotech,
• 40:04
  gene editing now is going to lead to the possibility
• 40:06
  of rich people buying genetically edited embryos,
• 40:10
  to give their children advantages,
• 40:12
  selecting for things like resistance to disease or cognitive improvements
• 40:16
  and things like that.
• 40:17
  Are you seeing debates inside leadership in biotech saying,
• 40:19
  you know, that that could be an outcome of what we're doing.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_0: How do we how do we
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_3: Mm-hmm.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_3: Yeah.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_0: make the benefits more widely available than that?
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_0: I mean,
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_3: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_0: are people talking about stuff like that?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_3: Yeah, so a couple rungs down from the the CEOs of the biggest pharma companies.
• 40:34
  And I will tell you those people that I work with,
• 40:37
  you know, pharma companies have the bad rap, right?
• 40:40
  And the potential the you know the the harmful impact of some of the technologies
• 40:44
  that are happening.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_3: My exposure is I'm with scientists.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_3: And I'm with people that are passionate about the missions of these companies.
• 40:53
  The people in these companies that I interact with,
• 40:57
  are like vice presidents, senior vice presidents.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_3: They're not the executive vice presidents and CEOs of Bayer.
• 41:03
  But even Bill Anderson,
• 41:05
  CEO of Bayer, like his focus is on curative, positive, patience, solving.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_3: I can say that because I know him.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_3: And those are the executives that I have met in the biotech space.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_3: And that's the message that they're saying.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_3: And and you know, I love talking to people that want to naysay the industry.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_3: Because I can say I'm working in it for twenty, twenty five years.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_3: The people that are doing this work... Look, there's always gonna be bad actors.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_3: But and I think we can say this for the masses.
• 41:43
  I'm I'm gonna believe we're all here for the good,
• 41:46
  and that has been the experience of the people that I've run in circles with.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_0: We're about out of time.
• 41:51
  If if you're gonna sum up the trajectory from being a young recruiter
• 41:57
  at General Magic,
• 41:58
  someone at the beginning of a career,
• 42:00
  and where you've ended up now,
• 42:02
  what are you happiest about in terms of what you've been able to accomplish?
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_3: Mm.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_3: There's this young leader that I met recently and I asked her who's her role model?
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_3: What's what's your role model for leadership?
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_3: She's COO of her three person startup.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_3: And you know, she's she's wanting to learn, you know, how do I think about this?
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_3: How do I think about leading and I said, Well, who are the role models?
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_3: Who is it that speaks to you and she's going to go and search for that.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_3: She's not sure she has that.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_3: And I think that the experience at Magic taught me many things.
• 42:38
  But just having a a model of what's possible in how we work together,
• 42:43
  is the vision that I will keep trying to bring to life.
• 42:47
  What are a couple words for someone meeting or listening to Kris Rodriguez for
• 42:53
  the first time, you'd want them to come away with?
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_3: Mm.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_3: Yeah.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_3: You know, the first word that came to my mind is human.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_3: And the second word that came to my mind was mom.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_3: And caring, compassionate is is something I try to be.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_3: But yeah, those are those are the words.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_1: That's great.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_1: I think you're an eye opener, Kris.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_1: I think you're somebody who brings people into a state of awareness about certain things.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_1: You guide people to more clarity about stuff.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_1: That I would add to you to the list of descriptors for you.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_3: Thank you.
• 43:33
  For those interested in your consultancy and the tremendous value you provide,
• 43:40
  what's the best way for them to get in touch with you or to learn more?
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_3: Thanks.
• 43:43
  So yeah,
• 43:44
  my business practice,
• 43:45
  it's Clear Path Communications,
• 43:47
  focused on organization development consulting,
• 43:50
  including change management work,
• 43:52
  organization design, and then leadership coaching practice.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_3: So yeah, clearpathcommunications.com or Kris K-R-I-S at clear path communications dot com.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_1: Excellent.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_0: Well, it was fun to reconnect and to talk about these things.
• 44:07
  And I think all three of us and many more Magicians have been in search for
• 44:12
  the rich, enabling, enlivening experience that we had then.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_0: It was a special place that you helped to create and we'll always be thankful for that.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_0: So thanks.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_3: Thank you.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_2: Thank you for listening to General Magic and the Soul of Tech podcast.
• 44:28
  Tune into our Substack for more interviews and articles
• 44:31
  at spellboundproductions.substack.com.