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An Alarm, a Death, a Murder - The Wangler Case · RN's and Red Flags

0:07
SPEAKER_00: Hi everybody, welcome to R's and Red Flags episode three.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for joining us again.
0:16
SPEAKER_00: Uh I am here.
0:18
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm Amanda, you guys.
0:19
SPEAKER_00: I'm Amanda.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: And I'm Ashley.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: So Ashley, are you excited to hear?
0:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm excited.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: What I love is I have no idea what we're even talking about.
0:31
SPEAKER_01: So I'm excited.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: It is.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: It's it's genuinely like just two friends sitting over some coffee, and I'm telling you some like juicy stuff that I've heard.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: So, okay, we're gonna get into it.
0:43
SPEAKER_00: So I want you to imagine waking up because you hear an alarm going off.
0:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: You feel sick, you start stumbling around, you go up to check on your spouse, and your spouse is not responding.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: That's how this case begins in a home in Lima, Ohio, in September of 2006.
1:06
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that just gave me chill.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: So an alarm going off at out that at that hour would already freak me the hell out.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: And then finding someone upstairs, I don't know.
1:15
SPEAKER_01: Oh I know.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: I think we're talking about today.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: Well, well, okay.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: So the person that was found upstairs was Kathy Wangler, and she was found by her husband, Mark.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: Before I tell you exactly what happened in that house, or well allegedly, I want you to know a little bit more about her.
1:34
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
1:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, but a quick disclaimer, please, everybody, just remember that we are nurses.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: We are just giving our general comments.
1:41
SPEAKER_00: None of this is medical advice, and we are your not your medical providers.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, we'll continue.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: I want to give credit where credit is due.
1:49
SPEAKER_00: So the majority of my research I got from the CBS 48 hours episode called House of Secrets, reported by Peter Van Sant.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: So credit to their reporting and interviews, and we will link our sources in the description of this video.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: Um, okay, so Kathy and her husband Mark had been married almost 30 years.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: They had two sons, Nathan and Aaron.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: And Kathy supported Mark while he went through medical school when they were young, and he ended up becoming an anesthesiologist.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: People close to Kathy described her as outgoing, warm, and dedicated to their boys.
2:31
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: 30 years, almost 30 years.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: So that's like a whole lifetime together.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: 30 years are I mean, I just like a long time.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: How long have I been married?
2:42
SPEAKER_00: 11?
2:43
SPEAKER_00: And that seems like a lifetime.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: Lifetime.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: 30 years.
2:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: Long time.
2:49
SPEAKER_00: Insane.
2:49
SPEAKER_01: Long time.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: At the boys' school home at this time.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: No, so the boys were in college by 2006, and Mark did an interview in this 48 hours episode.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: And I was trying to figure out where he was giving this interview from.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: Because remember, I don't know.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm just learning about this as I'm doing the research.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: I had not heard of this case before, which is abnormal because I think we listened to and and watch so much of this.
3:20
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, I hadn't heard it.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, this man is like nicely dressed.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: Are we in prison or are we not in prison?
3:28
SPEAKER_00: Because doesn't it confuse you when that happens on shows?
3:31
SPEAKER_01: Every Amanda, every single time I watch shows, I will be like, hmm, I don't know.
3:37
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
3:38
SPEAKER_01: It can't be him because like he's really, really like well dressed.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: Yes, like put together.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, no, there's no way.
3:45
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, this guy, he probably does.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: He's got like a an orange or a cream color, like probably what he's so I do it every time.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: Every time.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: And every time they'll like pan out the camera at the end, and they're like they've got like a dress shirt on, and but they're sitting with their arms like um handcuffed to the table.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, okay.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: They gave me every time.
4:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm not the only one.
4:10
SPEAKER_00: No, you're definitely not the only one.
4:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, anyway, so he and Kathy he had said in this oh gosh, I digressed a lot, but he and Kathy had had kind of been growing apart, he said.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: He was very upfront about that in the interview.
4:27
SPEAKER_00: Uh, it was a multitude of reasons.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: He did say at one point he was complaining about her housekeeping habits, her spending habits.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, who knows?
4:38
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but again, that's all alleged.
4:40
SPEAKER_00: We don't know.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: Kathy was described as the outgoing one, and Mark was described as an introvert.
4:46
SPEAKER_00: And he was a self-described introvert.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: He even at one point said he's very awkward in person, and you could kind of tell that from the interview, but again, he spoke very eloquently.
4:56
SPEAKER_00: So I don't, but he's a very educated person.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, at this point, they had even been going to marriage counseling.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so things weren't great then.
5:07
SPEAKER_01: No, no, I mean they were working on it, yeah.
5:11
SPEAKER_00: And again, we I mean, I don't think any marriage is perfect all the time.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: No, so the fact that they were going to marriage counseling, I'm like, wow, that's that's that's nice.
5:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, so but that was Mark's account, anyways.
5:26
SPEAKER_00: He said that they never really actually talked about divorce, but Kathy's family described a much more like troubled marriage than Mark was giving uh the impression of.
5:37
SPEAKER_00: Her sister had even said, Kathy's sister said that she witnessed the couple at one point wrestling over a checkbook.
5:45
SPEAKER_00: And I don't when it gets to that point, we just mean to throw out the towel if we're wrestling over a checkbook.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, come on.
5:53
SPEAKER_00: Um, but relatives said that Kathy had told them that Mark was hurting her emotionally and financially, and pretty much every way that was not physical.
6:03
SPEAKER_00: So obviously that was troubling to her family.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: Uh at one point, I believe it was her sister, her friend, even asked her, like, are you feeling safe to go home?
6:13
SPEAKER_00: And she said, Yes, yes, I feel safe.
6:15
SPEAKER_00: I feel safe to go home.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: Uh Mark, I think the part that really got me though is again, I'm looking at this man who is well dressed and he's speaking eloquently, and then he makes a comment about her weight, like saying something like she had been gaining weight.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: And to me, right, like uh immediately, because I was kind of like, because again, I didn't know how like I didn't know how this case ended, so I was thinking to myself, like, oh, he seems like an okay guy, but then he made that comment, and immediately I was like, Oh, oh, you yeah, you definitely got dropped some notches, sir.
7:01
SPEAKER_00: That was really not cool.
7:04
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
7:05
SPEAKER_00: Um, but anyway, so at this point, they were actually sleeping in separate bedrooms.
7:10
SPEAKER_01: I mean, sleeping in separate bedrooms doesn't like really bother me on its own, but I mean, again, people maybe sleep better that way, but I think the whole you're like, yeah, the couple was wrestling over a checkbook.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: Um take it all in.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's crazy.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: I mean it sounds like Cathy was telling her family things were tense.
7:31
SPEAKER_00: So I mean that's exactly and you know, I think about like sometimes, yeah, I would like to kick my husband out of the room when he's snoring and I need to just sleep.
7:40
SPEAKER_00: And I'm looking at my sleep, what is the provision?
7:44
SPEAKER_00: You're like, right?
7:45
SPEAKER_00: I'm looking at my aura ring reading, and my my sleep score is like 56.
7:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, can you just get out?
7:52
SPEAKER_00: But we're not wrestling over a checkbook, okay?
7:54
SPEAKER_00: We're definitely not doing that.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: No.
7:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, so yes, his family did say, or her family, excuse me, that things were tense.
8:04
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and they were.
8:05
SPEAKER_00: Mark had even mentioned like again, different schedules, Kathy snoring as reasons for separate bedrooms.
8:14
SPEAKER_00: Uh, one bedroom was downstairs, and that's where Mark slept, and Kathy's was upstairs.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: So please just keep that layout in mind when we actually get to the morning that this okay.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: So so wait, so one bedroom was downstairs, that's where Mark.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: So Mark was downstairs, and Kathy was upstairs.
8:34
SPEAKER_01: So you want me to remember?
8:35
SPEAKER_01: Yes, mark down, Kathy up.
8:37
SPEAKER_01: All right, let's go.
8:40
SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, this feels like nursing school all over again.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: Like, try how can we remember?
8:45
SPEAKER_00: Hmm, let's see.
8:47
SPEAKER_00: Let me think.
8:48
SPEAKER_00: Mark down, you're gonna get marked down if you get something wrong.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: So now we're gonna remember.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: Bring it all back.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry for any nurses that are listening and you're getting PTSD from remembering the studying days.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: Lord have mercy.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, okay, so it's early Monday morning, September 4th of 2006.
9:11
SPEAKER_00: Mark later said that it was actually the carbon monoxide alarm that woke him up.
9:17
SPEAKER_00: He described feeling very disoriented, nauseated.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: He even said that he vomited along the way at some point.
9:25
SPEAKER_00: He went upstairs and found Kathy unresponsive.
9:29
SPEAKER_00: He thought she might be having a seizure.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: The court record says that Kathy had an epilepsy diagnosis.
9:37
SPEAKER_00: Wait a second.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: Hold on.
9:40
SPEAKER_01: If you feel confused and disoriented and nauseated, all the above, and you see someone unresponsive.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can't imagine how like chaotic that is.
9:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so what happens when he calls for help?
9:58
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: This is like so I know it's it it's a it's a weird situation.
10:03
SPEAKER_00: And the 911 call came in at 518 a.m.
10:07
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: Mark told the dispatcher about the alarm and said that his wife was having a seizure.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: During the call, he said that he opened the windows in Kathy's room and began CPR.
10:19
SPEAKER_00: The first fire chief arrived about four minutes after the call, and he heard the carbon monoxide alarm and found Kathy without a pulse or breathing.
10:29
SPEAKER_00: EMS continued resuscitation and took her to the hospital.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: So four minutes is fast.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it didn't feel you know fast in the house, but um, okay.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: Well, did they get her back?
10:43
SPEAKER_00: Oh no, no Rosk in this case.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, yep.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: So she arrived at the hospital at 5 45 a.m.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: and was pronounced dead at 5 54.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: Now what's interesting 545 and then 554.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: I'm just I'm just like putting this all together.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: Okay, you know, and and so there was actually a uh the emergency room physician that was deposed in this case, and I had it was a witness on trial, and the physician described her as pale and cool with stiffness and signs of lividity by the time she got to the hospital.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, right?
11:23
SPEAKER_00: What?
11:24
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
11:25
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's awful.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so the doctor believed that Kathy had died before she reached the hospital.
11:32
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
11:34
SPEAKER_00: I know so wow.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: In you know, in these situations, you just to put a medical perspective, bodies, you know, especially when someone's doing CPR, right?
11:52
SPEAKER_00: They did do CPR, Mark allegedly did CPR.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: I'm assuming EMS did CPR, resuscitation efforts continued.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: So the blood is still flowing.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: And for a body to become cold and stiff with signs of lividity, nope, I mean, that's you're gonna that's gonna be right, yeah, not that quick.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: I mean, because you're talking uh well, hold on a second, because that's when he saw her, right?
12:25
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: So I mean, she very well could have passed away.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know you know, I guess it would depend on how her body was at that moment when he you know what I'm saying?
12:39
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and the thing about it is is he was disoriented because my thoughts are you are a physician, you not only a physician, you are an airway expert, right?
12:50
SPEAKER_00: An anesthesiologist.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: So in the call, you can hear he sounds panicked, he's she's not breathing, you know.
13:00
SPEAKER_00: And then at one point, I think he said that she's no pulse, like you can hear the panic in his voice, but I'm thinking to myself, again, I don't want to pass judgment, god forbid any of us are in that situation, but I'm just like, how did you not know that yeah immediately, right?
13:18
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
13:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you and I have both walked into rooms with a deceased person, and it's pretty obvious.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: Um, especially if it's been to the point where they're cool and you're not doing CPR, yeah, yeah, yeah.
13:36
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: Um so Mark was also I have a lot of questions, just letting you know.
13:42
SPEAKER_01: I just have a lot of questions.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, wait, fire away when you're ready.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, so Mark was brought in too, and he showed a carboxyhemoglobin level of 13%.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: Uh he had been exposed to carbon monoxide.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: That's what that's telling us, right?
13:58
SPEAKER_00: However, the next day, Kathy's autopsy showed a level of 69.6 percent.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: That I mean, that's a significant difference, right?
14:11
unknown: 13.
14:12
SPEAKER_00: Almost 70 percent.
14:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, almost 13 to and almost 70 percent.
14:17
SPEAKER_00: So now the pathologist concluded that she died of acute carbon monoxide poisoning.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: And after reviewing the medical record, the pathologist estimated that Kathy died one to two hours before she even reached the hospital, which sounds much more realistic you know, considering what the ER physician would make sense a hundred percent.
14:42
SPEAKER_00: That makes sense, yes.
14:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think that I don't know.
14:48
SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, those are such different levels.
14:51
SPEAKER_01: Um wait, can I give like a nurse sidebar?
14:56
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, so if someone comes in nauseated and confused, uh-huh.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: We uh I mean, as a nurse, in in in my opinion, I'm gonna put a pulse ox.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, I mean vitals immediately, right?
15:09
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so with carbon monoxide poisoning, that familiar little number can look reassuring even when that person is seriously sick.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: Yes, because it can be delayed, right?
15:20
SPEAKER_00: Yes, in a person with carbon, carbon, uh yes, carbon monoxide poisoning.
15:24
SPEAKER_00: It can be delayed.
15:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're right.
15:26
SPEAKER_00: That's a really great point because just saying, uh, yeah, okay, that's fair.
15:32
SPEAKER_00: That's fair, yes.
15:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, that is a good sidebar.
15:37
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for bringing that up.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: Now, the so the oh go ahead.
15:42
SPEAKER_01: Well, I was just gonna say because like a regular pulse ox can't again to like go back on that really distinguish oxygen from the carbon monoxide.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
15:53
SPEAKER_01: So what would you do?
15:55
SPEAKER_01: You would need to have the test to confirm the exposure.
15:58
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
15:58
SPEAKER_01: So somebody saying, like, my oxygen looked fine doesn't technically rule out carbon monoxide poisoning, right?
16:06
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: Yep, absolutely.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's why they would have to run that specific test, the carboxyboxy hemoglobin.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: Hemoglobin, exactly.
16:13
SPEAKER_00: So otherwise, you don't know.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: You don't, you can't just tell by your thinking, which is really odd.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: So at one point in my career, I worked in the emergency room for what, I don't know, five years.
16:27
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not sure that I ever got a patient that came in to rule out carbon monoxide poisoning.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: I know we ran carby carboxy hemoglobins, but I kind of crazy.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of crazy, like just it is.
16:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I guess it's not like maybe super common, but I'm just thinking about that because there's not very much in the ER you don't see often.
16:49
SPEAKER_00: So um I would think we have uh a couple sprinkles of those, but yeah, something, right?
16:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but anyway, so yes, so the medical evidence did establish officially the poisoning.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: Uh finding its source, I think was the next question.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: So that morning, a deputy walked through the house in the downstairs.
17:09
SPEAKER_00: This is where it gets interesting.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: In the downstairs chills, and I don't even know what you're gonna say.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, that's the whole point.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: Uh, so in the downstairs bathroom near Mark's bedroom, he the deputy saw wet carpet around the toilet and an open window and a floor fan running.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: So I hope that's I'm just saying, like, I hope that's a rug and not actually carpet.
17:37
SPEAKER_01: Sorry for anybody who has carpet in the bathroom, but I oh I never thought about that.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: Okay, you're right.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: Oh, gross.
17:45
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm so grossed out.
17:46
SPEAKER_00: I can't believe you said that.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: So stopped.
17:50
SPEAKER_00: Like we put our toothbrushes under the sink and they're not even close to the toilet.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: I just can't imagine having if you had carpet and yeah, disgusting.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, okay, that was yeah, sidebar.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, so Mark he had said that Kathy had overflowed the toilet, which come on, man.
18:13
SPEAKER_00: Like your wife just died, and you're gonna shame her like that.
18:18
SPEAKER_00: Could you not have even said you overflowed the toilet, Mark?
18:23
SPEAKER_00: Like, just take one for the teen.
18:25
SPEAKER_00: So, like, red flag, if you ask me.
18:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: Anywho, so he said, um, so he said Kathy had overflowed the toilet, and so that's why he'd open the window and turned on the fan.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: So, okay, so there was really wet carpet.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I wouldn't just dismiss that explanation, but I'm also thinking that a window open near where he slept, I mean, could have made a big difference though.
18:53
SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, absolutely.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: What a weird coincidence.
18:57
SPEAKER_00: And I think the other thing is uh again, this is just me uh spitballing here, but I'm like, did Kathy not overflow it and you just like dumped water on there, and this was all part of your cover up, knowing that she wouldn't be alive?
19:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like it's just it's a really weird setup.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: And I guess my other question is odd if someone overflows the toilet, my first instinct isn't going to be opening a window, maybe blowing a fan on it.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: I mean, maybe I guess if there was like like remnants in there, but I don't I don't know, whatever.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: The whole thing is just a little weird to me.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it is uh later, an engineer had said that ventilation could explain why Mark's carbon monoxide level was much lower than Kathy's, whether it was just like a lucky coincidence or something more disputed.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that makes sense.
19:52
SPEAKER_00: That uh okay, all right.
19:54
SPEAKER_00: It does, it does make sense.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: Well, obviously, yeah.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, if you have a fan blowing and it's just going right out the window, well, that would explain it.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but then if you think about it, where the hell was this carbon monoxide coming from?
20:07
SPEAKER_00: Because I feel like the majority of things that can cause carbon monoxide are in the basement.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: And if he had a fan blowing and a window open and he was still at 13%, was it 13%?
20:19
SPEAKER_00: It was 13, right?
20:21
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's gotta be a significant amount of carbon monoxide that's blowing in there, you know, despite the the ventilation.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, so uh another interesting part is the deputy also noticed dark markings near a floor vent in Kathy's upstairs room.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: And at that point, nobody had established what made those marks.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: The marks looked like soot above the vents.
20:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, like soot it was like soot.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, and we'll get so we'll get to why that might make sense a little later.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: But in the 48 hours episode, the sons were specifically asked about that, and one of the sons was like, Oh, we just like to burn candles, we just like to burn, but I'm thinking, are you setting a candle on the ground?
21:11
SPEAKER_00: You're setting a candle on the floor that never burned the wall.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: No, and that close to the wall, and the soot.
21:20
SPEAKER_00: If you if you saw it, the soot was coming up both sides of the vent.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: So, like a fan.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't just like one area where there might have been, you know what I'm saying?
21:31
SPEAKER_00: Might have been a candle.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was just I don't know, it just it wasn't making sense to me.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let me just okay, I have a mental picture right now.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: So, okay, him downstairs with outside air, her upstairs, and this vent in her room.
21:48
SPEAKER_01: But again, like you said, what the hell was producing the carbon monoxide?
21:53
SPEAKER_01: Yes, before anything of it.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: I want to know what I'm saying.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: So, Mark believes.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: That the natural gas water heater was the source.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: He said that its pilot light sometimes went out when it was windy.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: A gas company worker came the same morning and tested the furnace and the water heater.
22:13
SPEAKER_00: The tests did not produce dangerous carbon monoxide levels.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: But the worker did find a code, and the the problem was the water heater's outside vent was a little too short.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: So that's an actual issue with the vent.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: So even though the appliance wasn't pumping out dangerous levels when they checked it.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: So I guess my thing is, is to me, it doesn't really make sense for it to have been the vent that was causing this issue if it never did before, because clearly it's been short for a long period of time.
22:47
SPEAKER_00: And they said and it wasn't producing dangerous levels, right?
22:50
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: So two days later, an engineer tested the gas appliances under a range of different conditions and still didn't find the source that was sufficient to explain Kathy's huge exposure.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: So his report said that the short vent might allow backdrafting in certain conditions and that more testing would be needed.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: But he also could not eliminate a running car in the attached garage as a possible source.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: Wait.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I'm I'd be really frustrated right now.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: Um you know what killed her, but the tests aren't recreating what happened in the house at night.
23:33
SPEAKER_01: So what happened?
23:36
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: That's a fair way to put it.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the water heater explanation remained possible in the defense's view, and they were arguing it.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but investigators eventually looked in a whole different direction, but they could not eliminate a running car in the garage as a odd, right?
23:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: Odd, right?
24:00
SPEAKER_00: So over the following months, Kathy's mother and sisters grew even more suspicious of Mark.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: They told 48 hours that they stayed close to him.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: It was like a keep your enemies closer type thing.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but privately they were keeping notes about things that upset him that he was doing in the time right after Kathy's death.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: So, for instance, he almost immediately got rid of her belongings, which to me is a crazy red flag.
24:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: Comments about her burial, saying thing like stuff that he said was he didn't have an opinion on where she was buried.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: He didn't care if he was buried next to her or not.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: Uh, this is things that he actually said, like to the family when they were trying to figure out arrangements.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: Um and then also what they considered inappropriate behavior around her funeral.
24:57
SPEAKER_00: So, for example, they were on the way.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: It was something like it was either on the way to the funeral or the service, and he made a comment about the cemetery, like, oh, people are just dying to get in here.
25:11
SPEAKER_00: Oh sir, we are going to your wife's funeral.
25:16
SPEAKER_00: I understand that things may not have been peachy, but after 30 years of marriage, who wouldn't be?
25:24
SPEAKER_00: I mean, even if you divorced somebody, doesn't matter.
25:26
SPEAKER_00: You there, you still have those feelings.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: It's the the it's the mother of your children.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: Like, come on, it's just it was really tasteless.
25:35
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
25:36
SPEAKER_01: When someone you love dies suddenly, and I can see how every comment gets replayed in your head, and some of that would hurt too.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: Um at the same time, I wouldn't want grief behavior to be the only no, do you know?
25:47
SPEAKER_00: Because people do grieve differently, right?
25:49
SPEAKER_00: And and that's totally like maybe he said himself he's very awkward, like socially, right?
25:55
SPEAKER_00: So maybe that's what it was.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: It definitely wasn't proof on its own, but Kathy's mom kept pressing the sheriff's office.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: And about four months after the death, investigator Clyde.
26:07
SPEAKER_00: I I'm not gonna say this correctly.
26:09
SPEAKER_00: Forgive me, Clyde Breedigan.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: Breedigan was I hope so to say it fast.
26:16
SPEAKER_00: Clyde Bridigan was assigned, and he told 48 hours that he eventually interviewed roughly 80 to 85 people, and he examined the couple's marriage and questioned whether a gas appliance explained the scene.
26:31
SPEAKER_00: Eight zero interviews, eight zero, eighty to eighty-five.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: And again, it was because Kathy's mom was pressing them like you need to look harder, something's not right.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh, you know, at I think that the sheriff's office was just like, all right, all right, like we'll put a different investigator on this, right?
26:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, clearly it's becoming a serious investigation, yes, it was, and during this period, Mark also grew close to a woman named Esther.
26:58
SPEAKER_00: Now, here we go, here we go.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: Long time friend, uh-huh, long time friend.
27:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's exactly right.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: But that ironically, that is what he said.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: She was a longtime friend.
27:10
SPEAKER_00: I swear to god, he said everybody says that was just a long-term friend, yes, that was in his words and Esther's words, and apparently it was a longtime friend.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: And get this, she's actually a psychologist, PhD educated, okay, which is uh well, we'll get back to that.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: So uh her husband had actually died, and after he died, they had gotten closer.
27:40
SPEAKER_00: They said they had not been romantically involved before Kathy's death, but some people in town, yeah, suspected otherwise.
27:48
SPEAKER_00: That suspicion was never like established as fact, and Mark and Esther uh they adamantly denied that they had anything going on prior to her death.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: However, they were married about 14 months after Kathy died, and Esther Esther publicly supported him through this entire case, was very vocal about how she thought it was just so wrong.
28:15
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I can understand why Kathy's family would have feelings about that, but I don't want to work backwards from a later marriage and decide that there must have been an affair.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: I know, I know, but still like dang, that's just again, people grieve differently, but there are really just a lot of red flags, in my opinion.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: A lot, so yeah, and investigators at this point needed evidence about the death itself.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: So in April of 2007, remember, she was found dead in September of 2006.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: So in April of 2007, deputies went back and searched Mark's home and took several items, including three handwritten journals.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: Kathy's mother had told them that he was keeping journals and they described tension in the marriage.
29:03
SPEAKER_00: The journals did.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: He had documented in the journals that he was feeling rejected, angry, trapped, all these different things.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: So oh, that would be a hard thing to read in the courtroom.
29:17
SPEAKER_01: People write down thoughts they might never say out loud because in a journal.
29:21
unknown: I know.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: Was he doing that for himself or for counseling?
29:24
SPEAKER_00: Like, what are I'm pretty sure if I recall that his marriage counselor, yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: He did say his marriage counselor had encouraged him to write honestly about his feelings, but one entry even discussed suicidal thoughts and mentioned car exhaust.
29:42
SPEAKER_00: Okay, right.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: So in a September 1st entry, so we want to remember, yeah, so because if we are remembering, this was what what was the exact date?
29:57
SPEAKER_00: September 4th?
29:59
SPEAKER_00: Let me look.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: I want to go back because yep, September 4th.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: So September 4th was the day that she was found dead.
30:08
SPEAKER_00: So in a September 1st entry, three days before Kathy died, he asked God in his journal to act powerfully in their marriage.
30:19
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
30:20
SPEAKER_00: Then in November, about two months after her death, uh he ended up writing in his journal that he was thankful or something along those lines.
30:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm not quoting it, but something like he was thankful that God had acted so powerfully.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I won't lie, hearing car exhaust, like I told you, and a carbon monoxide case makes my stomach just drop.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: But if the entry is about suicide, I just don't think that we can rewrite it into a plan that he was gonna kill Kathy.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: I know, you know what I'm saying?
31:04
SPEAKER_01: And that reflection was written in November after after she died.
31:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and in he had said something like his marriage had changed forever or in the journal entry, and this was three days after she died, which is true.
31:19
SPEAKER_00: I should tell you as well, he was deeply involved in the church, okay.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: Oh, very deeply involved in the church, a very godly person.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't like to say godly because was he godly if he actually did commit this atrocity?
31:39
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, I digress.
31:41
SPEAKER_00: So uh later, prosecutors argued that the writing showed a motive and a significant uh connection to the exhaust.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: So the defense said that they reflected counseling, faith, and a troubled marriage, but not murder.
31:59
SPEAKER_00: So the journals were real and their meaning was like fiercely contested between the prosecutors and the defense.
32:05
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that feels like one of those things a jury would have to read in context, not as like a scary sentence, you know, just pulled out by itself.
32:12
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
32:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that it's true because again, yeah, you're very right.
32:16
SPEAKER_00: When things are just mentioned and you're not giving the full context.
32:21
SPEAKER_00: The full because I guess, you know, the full context technically would be like, what did their day look like that day, right?
32:28
SPEAKER_00: Right.
32:28
SPEAKER_00: Had they had just had it now, mentioning car exhaust is just it again.
32:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm having a really hard time separating the coincidences and the red flags, uh, in my opinion.
32:39
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, anyway, so meanwhile, detectives developed a theory that an engine's exhaust rather than the water heater got into the home's furnace ductwork.
32:51
SPEAKER_00: So there were cars.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: Now this is the weird part.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: There were cars, another weird part, and a generator and an RV camper at the property.
33:01
SPEAKER_00: If I remember, the RV was in the driveway.
33:04
SPEAKER_00: And in November of 2007, they searched again.
33:07
SPEAKER_00: They removed pieces of the ductwork and the register from Kathy's room and nearby carpet for laboratory testing.
33:15
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: So I'm trying to picture how exhaust would even get into the duct, the like the ductwork.
33:21
SPEAKER_01: But did they find a setup still attached?
33:24
SPEAKER_01: So this is my thing.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: First of all, why did they not take all this prior originally?
33:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I just wonder if they were looking at it like, okay, this is very straightforward.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: But again, like we heard in our previous cases, could have just been taking this guy's word for it, right?
33:44
SPEAKER_00: I'm a physician.
33:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, she has epilepsy.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: It looks like she had a seizure and levels and yeah.
33:54
SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, and her ruling was her death ruling was you know, acute carbon monoxide poisoning.
34:02
SPEAKER_00: So it didn't even say homicide, it didn't say whatever, and death by or I guess murder, alleged murder by carbon monoxide poisoning.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: I can't imagine that's very common.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: So, um, but no, so Brighton, no, mm-mm.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: So Brightagan discussed a possible hose in his 48 hours interview, but he said that he could not prove or disprove that particular setup.
34:28
SPEAKER_00: And the defense argued that the proposed route for exhaust didn't make any physical sense and continued to point to the water here vent.
34:36
SPEAKER_00: So what they they did find a hose, and when I'm looking at this hose, it the defense was saying, Oh, well, everybody has hoses on their property.
34:46
SPEAKER_00: This hose looked different to me, it didn't look like a water hose, it did not look like a water hose, and it was exceptionally long.
34:53
SPEAKER_00: Okay, it was white, and it was it just looked different, but then the defense tried arguing, well, you know, carbon monoxide is a hot gas, and remember, Mark is down, mark down, so he was downstairs.
35:11
SPEAKER_00: So it was saying for it to go from the car exhaust and then travel down the hose into the basement, into the furnace, and through the ductwork, they were saying that that that shouldn't be possible, just based on you know, warm things rising to the top, but whatever.
35:27
SPEAKER_01: So the sores and the route are still question are in question, yeah.
35:32
SPEAKER_01: Even though the investigators technically have a theory, yeah, exactly theory.
35:39
SPEAKER_00: Yes, correct.
35:41
SPEAKER_00: So the duck samples went to a lab in January of 2008.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: Gosh, you just think about that timeline, how dragged out these things felt and I just think about like long, yeah, and I just think about the families, and like at this point, could he not have scrubbed those babies clean?
35:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
35:59
SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm saying.
35:59
SPEAKER_01: That's why I don't understand.
36:00
SPEAKER_01: Like it, I mean, sometimes this is like a year or two years after, you know.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: And yep.
36:06
SPEAKER_00: So that so the duct samples went to January of 2008.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: In September of 2009, the lab reported molecular markers in soot from the ductwork that were commonly found in engine emission.
36:21
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I just got chills.
36:23
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: Third chills, third, third chills for you.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
36:28
SPEAKER_00: Keep in tank.
36:29
SPEAKER_00: Oh my.
36:30
SPEAKER_00: So Mark, so Mark's defense challenged the testing and its whole interpretation, obviously.
36:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah the report didn't identify a specific engine or show someone introducing exhaust into the ducts.
36:46
SPEAKER_00: So that's the angle they were coming from.
36:48
SPEAKER_00: And I can see why the state would think that results matter, right?
36:52
SPEAKER_01: Right, of course.
36:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, I can also see why the defense would press them on exactly what proves it.
36:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:59
SPEAKER_01: Well, exactly.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: What it, you know, what it proves.
37:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, what it proves.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
37:03
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, right?
37:05
SPEAKER_00: So that freaking soot was from engine exhaust.
37:11
SPEAKER_00: Now, when it's visible to the naked eye, that's a decent amount of soot and exhaust coming out of that vent, right?
37:21
SPEAKER_00: So, oh no.
37:23
SPEAKER_00: Now, on September 17th in 2009, a grand jury indicted Mark for aggravated murder.
37:31
SPEAKER_00: So, about yep, and this was three years or roughly after Kathy's death, he pleaded not guilty and continued to say that she had died in an accident.
37:41
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
37:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, and what I don't want to say what's funny, I don't know how else to start this, but in the interview, the person, the 48-hour interviewer asked Mark, Well, you're an anesthesiologist.
37:56
SPEAKER_00: So some people would say you're kind of a master at gases and different things, putting people to sleep.
38:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, and he brought that up.
38:05
SPEAKER_00: And to be fair, Mark was like, I don't deal with carbon monoxide.
38:10
SPEAKER_00: Like, that's not the kind of gas that I use.
38:14
SPEAKER_00: So he was kind of like, no, you know, like, yes, he's like, I am an anesthesiologist.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I do deal with gases, but carbon monoxide is not one of them.
38:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: So um the trial began in 2011, and prosecutors said that Mark deliberately introduced uh engine exhaust into the ductwork.
38:35
SPEAKER_00: So their case combined the lab findings, the downstairs window and fan, the differences in the exposure, the medical testimony, and the journals.
38:45
SPEAKER_00: And they also argued that he had reasons to avoid divorce, including his standing in his church, because again, divorce is highly frowned upon in the church, and he was very into church, and the financial cost of ending a long marriage.
39:01
SPEAKER_00: Uh, that is their motive theory, and obviously not something we can know that's in his mind, but that was their motive.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm just thinking about how much is writing on the pieces that fit this all together.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the land finding is one of a kind evidence, right?
39:16
SPEAKER_01: And then a journal or you know, the way someone acts is another.
39:21
SPEAKER_01: Um but what did they say about the marks by Kathy's vet?
39:25
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's like the soot, yeah, because like maybe he didn't even know that it was there.
39:34
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know, I don't know how you mean the soot, yeah.
39:38
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
39:39
SPEAKER_00: Oh, and and then I forgot one of the sons, can't remember which one.
39:43
SPEAKER_00: One of the sons even said, Oh, well, that was my room, and I I know those were there, or something like that.
39:48
SPEAKER_00: Not quoting, but you know what I mean?
39:50
SPEAKER_00: He tried to say, Oh, we like to burn a lot of candles and on the floor, yep.
39:55
SPEAKER_00: On the floor, like, come on, it's just not it's just and again, well, the the ways that looked above the vent, but anyway, yeah, so prosecutors actually argued that the dark marks supported their exhaust theory, but Mark Sons testified again that their marks or discoloration were present before Kathy died, so just like we said, and um the original marks couldn't later be tested because the wall had been painted, so they couldn't further test them.
40:29
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
40:29
SPEAKER_00: Um wait, wait, wait.
40:31
SPEAKER_00: When the walls were painted, yeah, he painted the walls.
40:36
SPEAKER_00: Why?
40:38
SPEAKER_00: Girl, I don't know.
40:41
SPEAKER_00: He probably did it the day he threw Kathy's belongings out.
40:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, let's be real.
40:46
SPEAKER_00: Or like took Esther out on their first date.
40:49
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
40:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm salty about this guy.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because like I wouldn't want to tell viewers those marks were confirmed engine exhaust.
40:56
SPEAKER_01: So I mean that may look alarming, but that's I don't know, different from proving what made them.
41:02
SPEAKER_01: I guess.
41:02
SPEAKER_00: I know, I know, and I guess it's wild.
41:06
SPEAKER_00: I know, I know the whole thing is weird, but um the jury also heard Mark's 911 call, and prosecutors questioned his demeanor and why an anesthesiologist seemed to need dispatcher to prompt checks of Kathy's breathing and pulse.
41:24
SPEAKER_00: The defense said that he was panicked and that he himself had documented carbon monoxide exposure.
41:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've heard people sound surprisingly calm and awful emergencies, and then other people sound completely confused.
41:36
SPEAKER_01: So with carbon act on the board, I'd be especially careful about deciding guilt from just someone's tone right on that, you know.
41:44
SPEAKER_01: Gotta play devil's advocate.
41:45
SPEAKER_01: I know I'm just saying, but what did the medical witnesses say about Kathy?
41:50
SPEAKER_00: Well, again, the emergency doctor testified that about her condition at the hospital that we talked about earlier, and the pathologist estimated that she had died again, one to two hours before being there.
42:02
SPEAKER_00: And that that the timing of Mark's account of discovering her and starting CPR was suspicious based on that testimony, right?
42:12
SPEAKER_00: Obviously.
42:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean, again, could she have been deceased, you know, an hour prior to him finding her, two hours, maybe, but I I feel like he would have known that as an anesthesiologist.
42:24
SPEAKER_00: And I'm again, again, you're you're grieving.
42:28
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: But the other thing is, is they questioned his mention of taking a shower after the death while the water heater was under suspicion of CO2.
42:43
SPEAKER_00: So allegedly, somewhere along the line, he was like, Yeah, I gotta go shower.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: I gotta go shower this off of me.
42:50
SPEAKER_00: And it it kind of struck people as odd.
42:53
SPEAKER_00: That is odd.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is odd.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: I can see why those details got the jury's attention.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
42:59
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, so the the defense argued that a defective water heater vent caused the accident, and they emphasized the code issue and challenged the engine exhaust theory and the labor interpretation and pointed out that Mark was poisoned too.
43:17
SPEAKER_00: His open window and fan could explain a lower exposure, which is what they were going with.
43:21
SPEAKER_00: And they said no one had seen Mark running an engine or connecting a hose to kill Kathy.
43:26
SPEAKER_00: Well, who's outside watching them in the middle of the night?
43:32
SPEAKER_01: Right.
43:33
SPEAKER_01: You're not doing this in broad daylight while people are gonna see you.
43:36
SPEAKER_01: I know, I know, you know.
43:38
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I mean, was it deliberate?
43:42
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
43:42
SPEAKER_00: We we don't know.
43:43
SPEAKER_01: One account is a terrible appliance failure, but what you did say earlier that the guy said that the the data or the carbon monoxide was not enough to like didn't you say something about that?
44:00
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't enough to cause that big of a right.
44:03
SPEAKER_01: It was just like microscopic.
44:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:06
SPEAKER_01: So then, okay, so the, you know, appliance failure, and then the other would be a deliberate act.
44:12
SPEAKER_01: So and neither side can show you the jury of a recording of the exact moment that the guest entered the house.
44:17
SPEAKER_01: So I mean, it is a lot to weigh, right?
44:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:20
SPEAKER_00: I I mean it definitely is.
44:21
SPEAKER_00: I just I, you know, now that you say that, I'm thinking about it because let's say that it was car exhaust that was run through there.
44:30
SPEAKER_00: Because again, the soot, they said that that was common emissions found in car exhaust, right?
44:37
SPEAKER_00: And the the defense was saying, well, well, it doesn't match any certain car or any certain engine, whatever.
44:45
SPEAKER_00: But in I don't want to say in his defense, but kind of no matter where it was coming from, whether it was coming from the furnace, the water heater, the uh exhaust from a vehicle, regardless, they're saying it came from the ductwork.
45:04
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
45:05
SPEAKER_00: How come no matter what, it wasn't showing larger than like a molecular amount or minuscule, whatever word they used.
45:16
SPEAKER_00: You know what I'm saying?
45:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah so, regardless of where it was coming from, I'm I'm that part's a little perf perplexing, but yeah, anyway, so the prosecutor did acknowledge the state could not definitively identify the engine, but after hearing the circumstantial evidence, the jury reached a verdict on March 16th, 2011.
45:38
SPEAKER_00: Uh, guilty of aggravated murder.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
45:42
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
45:42
SPEAKER_00: Mark was sentenced to life in prison with parole eligibility after 25 years.
45:48
SPEAKER_00: However, the Ohio Appeals Court affirmed his conviction in 2012.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: So they denied his first appeal.
45:55
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
45:55
SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
45:56
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I've been holding off on deciding and how I thought that the jury would see it.
46:00
SPEAKER_01: So I can understand, you know, why the collection of details persuaded them, even with the unanswered questions about the exact source.
46:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just like it's all so weird.
46:09
SPEAKER_01: It's also hard like stays with you the most out of the case, would you say?
46:14
SPEAKER_01: Um the soot on the walls.
46:20
SPEAKER_01: Dude, I'm just like soot on walls on the walls, visible to the naked eye.
46:27
SPEAKER_00: I know that's yeah, right there.
46:31
SPEAKER_00: It's like have you ever touched an exhaust pipe on a car?
46:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, dude.
46:36
SPEAKER_00: Your fingers are black, yeah, and it is hot, hot immediately.
46:42
SPEAKER_00: So that there's no question in my mind, like that soot is gonna be, you know, whatever.
46:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm just curious if they found anything that was tampered with, like if he had to cut a little.
46:54
SPEAKER_01: No, I'm not, you know, so cut anything, you know what I'm saying?
46:59
SPEAKER_01: Like investigated that there, yeah, the furnace, if there was little cuts and put it like a hose and if there was tape or whatever, you know.
47:05
SPEAKER_00: Well, his actual his defense attorney did a walkthrough during the episode and showed the furnace, and he was trying to explain me laugh actually a little bit because he was trying to explain, like, how you guys really think that this is possible to, you know, what cut this open and put a hose in.
47:25
SPEAKER_00: And the part where he was saying cut this open, there was a part that looked like it had been cut open at one point, and there was like a patch of metal over it.
47:36
SPEAKER_00: He's like, What?
47:37
SPEAKER_00: He's gonna take out all these screws, and but I'm like, I mean, that is a very obvious patch.
47:42
SPEAKER_00: And the thing is, is yes, there are patches on furnaces for reasons that I do, I'm not gonna pretend to understand that, but it just made me laugh because I'm like, you're pointing directly at a spot that he very well could have he very well could have cut that sucker open, but yeah, and another thing too is like you know, I I would say the soot and then Kathy's uh levels like tell us that the exposure was devastating.
48:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, very high.
48:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, and Mark's level tells us that I mean, obviously he was exposed too, but again, a blood test result can't just tell or you know, a blood test result can't tell us whether the gas came from a water heater or an engine.
48:20
SPEAKER_01: Right.
48:20
SPEAKER_01: But it can tell us, okay, why that window was open.
48:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, those are different questions, right?
48:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, totally they are.
48:29
SPEAKER_00: And and you know, carbon monoxide itself, obviously, as everybody knows, well, maybe not everybody knows, but for all of our friends out there that might not know, it has no color or smell at all.
48:40
SPEAKER_00: That's why it's very important to have functioning alarms.
48:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, exhaust from an engine may have a smell because of other compounds.
48:50
SPEAKER_00: So carbon monoxide can cause nausea, headache, dizziness, confusion, collapse, even death, obviously.
48:58
SPEAKER_00: That's why clinical signs can help us understand what happened to a person without proving someone's intent, right?
49:04
SPEAKER_01: I keep thinking about Kathy beyond even the evidence.
49:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean, she was someone's mom.
49:08
SPEAKER_01: Her sons and her family had to live through both her death and the years of you know disagreement about what happened.
49:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
49:15
SPEAKER_01: And I and then I keep thinking about Amanda.
49:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, so let's say, let's say that was a hole in the furnace.
49:24
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
49:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
49:26
SPEAKER_01: If he had it going, this is all just I'm a lawyer.
49:30
SPEAKER_01: Now I'm a lawyer, right?
49:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
49:32
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
49:33
SPEAKER_01: So he did all this and like, you know, gassed her.
49:37
SPEAKER_01: Gassed her, Jesus.
49:38
SPEAKER_01: And then do you know what I'm saying?
49:39
SPEAKER_01: Like, yes, so she's, you know, passed away because of the carbon monoxide.
49:46
SPEAKER_01: Right.
49:47
SPEAKER_01: He had to have whatever he did, he had to take it all back out, yeah.
49:53
SPEAKER_01: Right.
49:54
SPEAKER_01: Before he called 911, right?
49:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying, I'm I was like just thinking about the I mean, but think about it.
49:59
SPEAKER_00: If she was cold and stiff and lividity had set in, you're talking a couple, he had a couple high hours, which makes sense with the hospital with when they were saying that.
50:11
SPEAKER_00: So right, exactly.
50:13
SPEAKER_00: And you know, so Kathy Wangler died on September 4th, in 2006, and her family fought for an investigation.
50:21
SPEAKER_00: Think about that because her sons were on their father's side, they supported him the entire time.
50:30
SPEAKER_00: And you know, the interviewer on 48 hours said, like straight up asked one of his sons, like, do you think your father had absolutely anything to do?
50:39
SPEAKER_00: And he was absolutely not, absolutely not, like supported him wholeheartedly, yes, still to this day, even when he was convicted, even when he was convicted, and and it was so sad because Kathy's mom got up and addressed him in court and said some not so nice things, and I just think about how her sons must be feeling yes or no, there's always going to be that question maybe in the back of their minds.
51:12
SPEAKER_00: But regardless, I don't know.
51:14
SPEAKER_00: But Esther also supported him, um, you know, publicly through all of this.
51:19
SPEAKER_00: And if you've seen the 48 hours episode, any of you guys listening, tell us what evidence stood out to you.
51:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh, obviously keep it respectful for Kathy and her family.
51:30
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but this has been RN's and red flags.
51:33
SPEAKER_00: So we will see you next time.