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Fire Service Assessment Centers: How to Prepare and Succeed · Fire Engineering Podcast

• Nat Kapustin: From MSA helmets and streamlight flashlights to seek thermal imaging cameras and so much more, the firestore.com has everything you need to serve your community safely and effectively. Greetings and welcome to the Women in Fire Radio Show. Today we will be talking about what is an assessment center. Thank you to Fire Engineering for allowing Women in Fire to be part of their radio show series. I'm Lisa Baker, a Southwest trustee for Women in Fire. Today I have Heidi Simon, a recently retired lieutenant from South Metro Fire in the Denver, Colorado area, who has sat on numerous assessment centers. So, what is an assessment center? It's a structured evaluation process used to assess a candidate for promotion within the fire service. It typically involves job-related simulations and exercises that mimic real life scenarios to evaluate a candidate's skills and competencies. It's one of the most misunderstood stages in the hiring process for promotion. Few understand it is designed to measure your skills and abilities. It's a structured evaluation process, unlike a written exam, which tests knowledge or an oral board or an oral board that evaluates how a candidate communicates under questioning. The assessment center puts candidates into simulated situations and are observed by the assessors. And we'll get into what an assessor is in a little bit. And departments use assessment centers because some competencies are difficult to evaluate through questioning alone. How a candidate handles a group conflict, prioritize comp competing demands during an incident command exercise or responds to the media or or the public in distress. There are these are observable behaviors that written and oral evaluation comp competency tests do not re are not reliable. So like I said, they're used for a promotional process. so Heidi, can you go over a little bit or we both can, is how is an assessment center developed? Yeah. So can hear me okay? Yes. Double checking. Okay, great. so an assessment center is typically developed in coordination with your department by using a professional organization that is in made up of industrial psychologists. Industrial psychologists will study the job description and dimensions of the position that they are testing, excuse me, that they are testing for, as well as work with the department to Determine what are the important characteristics that the department is looking for in each position. If your department does not use a professional testing organization, hopefully they're following the same plan of looking at that job description, looking at the dimensions of the each position, and identifying each area that they really want to focus on. that's what makes the test valid. And that's an extremely important important portion of the developing that test, that assessment center. And also just to add in that they departments usually use a job analysis, which is I don't Hardy, you've probably done one before in your department when they were what it is is it's a central fundamental step for the departments assessment centers. Some use them a lot of do them every five years, some use old ones, but It identifies the critical tasks, behaviors, and competencies required for successful job performance. And how they determine that is they use people in that have are that are currently in the position. And it's usually it's usually I have to be in the position anywhere from three to five years generally. And it's anywhere from like a hundred to two hundred question analysis, pretty much, where they're asking you what as you're the incumbent in this position, what do you feel is is necessary for a lieutenant captain or battalion chief that's to be successful in this job and that it's it's weighted. So if it you think it's like, do you need to know this right the first day you're a lieutenant, such as command. Right. Then it doesn't exactly yeah. A lot of that is based off of the job description. Then exactly what you said is what do we expect you to know and to be able to do proficiently the day that you're promoted and step off that rig. Exactly. And those Those people in your department that that help develop that test are usually called subject matter experts, and they won't be available to you for studying for the test, unfortunately. and also fortunately for the validity of the test. Exactly. they do you generally, and you just mentioned made a good point, they once the consulting department comes in, they sit down with probably your deputy chief of operations, maybe even your fire chief and or train and or training chief and go over what like Heidi mentioned, what do you feel are the the going on in your own agency that you want to see tested? And we'll get into that in a little bit. And then after that, then they will use a job analysis or like even like the job description. They use both of them. A lot of the problems like I mentioned earlier do not do a job analysis every year or every two years. as long as it's updated and that's what is the still the criteria for the position. And then they usually have Heidi mentioned, a lot of times we hear SME, which is the subject matter expert, they'll sit down and help develop the test with the psychologists. So why do w departments use an assessment center? I mean, we I kind of mentioned in the introduction that it man, you know, it measures your ability to do the job and you can't really determine that doing an oral interview. Or a written test. The written test is more job-related knowledge of your policies, procedures, rules and regulations, and a maraud of books that they give you to read. But why why are assessment centers used? So the I brought it up earlier, a little bit earlier, about the validity of a test. validating a test so that it can't be can't it can't be litigated on fairness. the department really wants to bring a fair assessment of the people. And the the best way to do that is to use a consulting testing company that has industrial psychologists because they actually study very in depth each one of those dimensions of the job through the job description and the job analysis. And then they the ch the questions should accurately if it's a written, ask the question that they The question should be phrased so that it actually asks the question exactly to get the answer that they actually want. So it's not a confusing question. And the same with all of the the others the actual personal part of the assessment center where you're present in the assessment center. each one of those questions tasks is developed so that they can accurately measure each one of those dimensions. And just to add to that, And it's fair. It's been determined that it's one of the fairest processes there is to do because everybody's asked the same exact questions. generally if anyone's taken an assessment center, they know that generally there if there is follow-up questions, it's always the same follow-up questions to how many of our candidates. And a lot of times there's no follow-up questions. So the assessors are the people that are actually grading you. And and they are trained all in the same manner as well. So they are trained how to. assess each one of the dimensions that they're they're looking at. And that also adds to that fairness. Exactly. They they can go ahead. Sorry, my my apologies. Sometimes the the test might be recorded either video or audio. Sometimes it's not. But the recording actually does add not only to the element of fairness, but it actually helps the candidates to better understands understand the successes and the failures that they may have made during the assessment process. So it really helps in that post evaluation and growing your people. So going back to assessors a little bit, like you mentioned, they they're they're brought in from outside your own agency. You won't s you may see somebody recognized from a neighboring agency, but departments because testing f is so expensive, they try to get people that aren't familiar with anyone in your own agency that might correct If you go on a lot of mutual aids for example. and then like Heidi mentioned, the assessments are the assessors are trained and a lot of time people think that they're using a check sheet and they're just checking off what you said. And and that sheet that that if you have taken assessment center and you see people like the assessors checking or something, you should not be worried what they're checking or what not checking. That's not gonna be a result of any kind of score, it's the main points or some points that they don't want said. And so the assessors are, usually the same rank or one rank above or or two ranks above the the test that's being or the position that's being tested for. So if you're a lieutenant, obviously they'll pop they'll want maybe want captains. If you're a captain, they'll probably want battalion chiefs, battalion chiefs, deputy chiefs. Some departments go ahead and use the same, like if it's a lieutenant's test, they do use lieutenant's captains, battalion chiefs for that test. and it's not just somebody random that it's somebody that's been in a position anywhere from a year to ten years in the position. And if yeah, each each center, each testing group or organization that requests assessors will have qualifications. there you will start seeing when the battalion chief and and above ranks, you will see a variety of ranks also under that rank. this it's a more common practice now to get a variety of ranks because they can assess what it's like to work for and what they are looking for in a division chief, the services that they would be provided. But they're rate they're also looking at them in a different light than would a a division chief at the same rank. But it is nice to have some lieutenants, for instance, on a battalion chief test because they can give that feedback on how that battalion chief is going to communicate with those people underneath them. The other thing is that the reason that we get the outside assessors is to prevent bias, because there's a a natural tendency to towards different types of bias within the assessment center if you know the candidates. They do even if you are working for an adjacent agency and you're in a testing center. if you know the candidate, they're they'll teach you a the testing company will teach you about how to recognize your bias and you have the opportunity to to state that prior to making your assessment of that person if you have a bias towards them or against them. Exactly. So some of the typical exercises that you find on assessment center would be so the the the most common ones that I have seen are some sort of oral interview will have a number of a number of questions for you to answer. the second one would be a role play or personnel issue. Different ways of presenting that role play is very difficult because there's a an actor person that is present that will only answer certain questions and act a certain way. And it's difficult for it's an awkward position to be in. when you do that though, you have to just stick with what the facts are, not with not putting ideas in your head that it could be. so the role player personnel issue, the tactical, and that can be done in two different ways. It can be a static tactical where you just have one picture, maybe a a series of of pictures that are that are static with maybe some changing fire conditions could due to what you have what the actions that you've taken. versus a dynamic, which you may have a a more dynamic fire scenario as well as people talking to you on the radio. And those are not as common anymore, but like anything in the fire service, it comes and goes. And so they may they're still out there for sure. And they may be more prominent at at different ranks. The inbox is something that also comes and goes in the fire service or in basket. And that is we did a a show on that last month. And that is assessing really your time management skills and your ability to critically think through the tasks of your day. You may have an oral presentation. That presentation is typically on a topic, maybe a teaching opportunity or a topic that is hot in your department. And some departments are actually doing a written assignment that may be based on a book or something or quite some questions that they've asked prior to the exam or the assessment center. or a follow-up. For instance, in an inbox situation, you may have to write a report or some communications to a chief or a citizen from your inbox and that written assignment would be done after the test or during the assessment, but after all of your other things are done. And just to add a little bit to that, the the oral the written exam could be also be a issue that's going on in your own department and they want to see how you're gonna handle it. within you could it could be the personnel issue and then at the end of it you have to write a written memo to the chief about how you handled it. Or it could be something totally different about describe how we could develop a secession plan or I mean with right now now every department seems like there's a lot of mandatory overtime and the morale is bad. So there could be a question on how to improve morale. And so it's I mean the other the ones we Heidi just mentioned you could practice those. You could and you can practice your writing too. And I think that departments went back to the written exercise because they realized that people the way things, reports and such were being done, it was almost in text format. the instead of putting four FOR, people were writing the the number four and it was almost like U is the letter U and such. And a lot of times emails and such are privy to public records requests and then the press gets a hold of these emails that we have, officers and senior officers writing and it looks bad for the department. So that's why a lot of departments have s went back and I kindly mentioned it comes and goes. I we mentioned the assessors being in the room that they're going to ask the same questions and such. That'd be a live assessment center. And a lot of departments use not a live assessment center. They bring all the candidates in at one time. Whether it's twenty or forty, and they all take the test pretty much at the same time. and it's recorded. And then at a later date, either you know, two, three days later, they bring an assessors in and they the assessors watch the recorded videos. And some the some departments like that, some candidates like that, some assessors like that. There's pluses and minuses for that. The plus is is that you know, you're watching the video and there's no nothing is gonna go wrong because they're all given the same information. So you know that no one's going to read a question wrong to you or anything like that. The negative is some people feel it's not as personable as as you're doing a an in-person assessment center. So as far as costs, I would think it's a little bit cheaper probably to do the recorded assessment centers because everyone's doing it at one time. And some departments do it because when you take an assessment center, you sign a confidential agreement, whether you're the assessor or the assessee saying you're not going to disclose what's on this test. And so if you have 20 candidates taking the test, obviously you can't have 20 assessors or 15 assessors for 20. You'd be there all day. So they have like 10 on one day, 10, 10 the next. And information gets leaked out. Even though you're assigned you're signing a confidential confidentiality agreement, we all know that information is going to get leaked out. So some departments that have had issues with information being leaked out now pretty much go to the recorded. versions of assessment centers because no information will be leaked out because everyone's I would think that would be I would think that I know that I've seen that for interviews for outside positions such as PIO or fire marshals that will they'll have the initial interview will be via video recording. And then so I could see especially in a large department that has a number of candidates of doing that first screening maybe to to chunk down from 50 people down to their top 10 where they then bring them into live assessments. I definitely think a live assessment center is is the best for your department, but obviously the constraints that all fire departments are having right now, it may not be the most realistic thing. So I think I'd be prepared for to see other one. And on on that note, we mentioned about consulting companies and such. So if you know your department is getting ready to give an assessment center. Ask around. Ask the people that already taken the test. Ask neighboring departments. Who did you guys use? Who what was the consultant that developed your test? Who developed your test and how was it? a lot of times departments in your own jur neighboring jurisdictions are going to use the same company that you use, and the companies are actually they bid for the process through an or request for proposal. The department puts out a request for proposal, and these agents or these consulting companies put in to want to Say we want to give come give your test. So find out if it's live or if it's it's recorded. Really, it doesn't have a that much of an effect on how you prepare. You still want to be prepared for it, but you just know that there's no one gonna be sitting across from you and taking notes and such. So we talked about the different exercises and such. what are we looking for? What's an assessor looking for from for the responses? So I'm sitting in there, I'm an assessor on the personnel issue. What are the we call them dimensions? And it's the dimension that the exercise is trying to determine if you know how to properly answer the question. So for a personnel issue, what dimensions would we be looking for? So, what is a dimension in itself? So these are things a good example would be your knowledge of your department's procedures. So if you're dealing with a per personnel issue, what is your What is your policy on a performance improvement plan or disciplinary action? There might be looking at your pres presenting skills, your ability to come up with and acknowledge what the problem is, what your process of finding out what the problem was, the all sides of it, how you analyzed it, and then how you what the process that you put together to solve the problem. decision making, how your decision making is, are you able to recognize the severity or the lack of severity of this issue? planning, are you able to plan how you're going to go about looking into the problem or into the the project that you've been assigned? And then a big one here is following up. that's a big part of the planning process. customer service. Are you recognizing the customer service of your your internal and external customers. we used to use this this phrase a lot, like I don't know, 30 years ago, that you have your internal customers, which are the people that work in your department, all of the people. And then your external comp customers, which are the citizens that we serve and the purpose that we are there. So are you addressing both of those? Are you keeping people healthy on your do on the job? And then are you also addressing and serving the public as you were as the department has intended for you to do. Your leadership ability, your command presence, flexibility, your ability to kind of switch roles and be flexible with different people in different ways. your ability to function under pressure, interpersonal skills. This is a big one, political awareness. right now, just recognizing that there are topics that are are very political, and then there are topics that that and there and there are topics that need to be kept out of the firehouse and out of personal situations. and then your ability to communicate orally is obviously critical so that you can talk to your people and talk to doctor people that you are servicing, your citizens as well as the people you are working directly with and your chiefs and people above you. Those are the primary ones for That I can think of off the top of my head. Yeah. I mean collabor I don't know what you kind of said interpersonal collaboration would be one. Collaboration is great. Not all exercises are gonna obviously test the same thing. It's a if it's a personnel issue, you're probably not gonna have command presence as one of the dimensions. So each exercise will have three to five dimensions on it. usually they are like your problem solving Organization. Organization, decision making, interpersonal skills, and oral communication. The command one, obviously we come in and obviously the tactical that we'll get into about. but they're all going to measure your communication. By communication, you we all communicate, but if somebody goes in there and doesn't answer the question and they're elaborate as as anything, and you're we're as an assessor, you're listening to them. And it's like, well, that's great, man. That I used card from that person. They're so convincing. But they never answered the question. Their communications are not going to be great because what you're looking for in the communication is that you're communicating what the the issue is and how you're gonna handle that issue, not you know, going around in circles and and every which way and not addressing the issue. Right. So the other side of that, Lisa, is that if you have a live personnel issue with a role player, Another large part of communication is obviously listening. So are you practicing those active listening tactics? Are you understanding and listening to what the person is saying? And so if you I think oftentimes you'll see candidates, they're so excited, anxious, or nervous, whichever one you want to put it in, that they aren't really listening to what the role player is saying, they are just trying to solve the initial problem that they heard, but that is never the whole problem in in real life or in the assessment center process. And so I think there's this big big ni misnomer that the assessment center is just this made up process. And it really is very much like your daily job. It just Is in a testing situation. So if you're not listening to your people, you're never gonna get to the bottom of the problem, including in the assessment center. And that's like kind of everything in life. If if a lot of people they listen to respond, not to understand what the issue is. So exactly if they're hearing something and they just want to interrupt you and respond to what you're saying instead of listening to you, comprehending what you're saying, listen to the whole scenario and then respond. So I think the best advice you just gave is make sure you're listening. to understand, not to just I want to give you an answer. Because if you're giving me an answer that's not answering the question, then your decision making's not going to be well and your oral communication probably won't be as well as you think it would be because you're not answering the question. We could probably do a whole class just on active listening. Yeah, we could in life in general, right? I mean But this is not marriage counseling. So so We've talked about the assessment centers and then you know, why they're used and the dimensions and such. But even before someone wants to take an assessment center, what what would advice would you be giving? If someone wants to come and your department gives a promotional promotional exam for an assessment center, what advice would you give to that individual to not only prepare for the assessment center or maybe ask them what What do they know what an assessment center is and then how to repair? Because some people think they're going to an assessment center, and the assessment center is not it's not an event. It's not your you're it is an event to some sort of regards. You're going to a test, but it's a location. It's not like I'm going like I'm going to the basketball game tonight. I'm going to an event. I'm going to an assessment center is you're going to a testing process. So there's that kind of misunderstanding of what an assessment center actually is. I know a lot of the testing companies now do an orientation. So if you are going to be taking an assessment center by all do the a lot of them are on Zoom now just because flying out the assessor or the consultants for just to do a one day, prep on the assessment center is those are the most valuable things I think I would tell anyone listening to this that's about the tech assessment center. And then you could Google, Google that company. I mean, Google's everyone's favorite, you know, friend. So Google the company, find out what they're about. But yeah. So if someone came up to you and you're, they're like a five year firefighter and now they say, Hey, I want to take the assessment center, what advice would you give to them? Well, so I have two two areas that I like to address. And there are, I know there are departments that do assessment centers, and they don't have any prequalifications or very little pre qualifications before they do their assessment centers. the department that I worked at had a very very long and and complete process to prepare to promote versus preparing for the assessment center. And so to I take those in two different parts. When you think you want to take an assessment center, you are taking, you're looking at testing. But really you have to back up and say, why am I promoting? Because is it just the money or is there there needs to be more than just the promotion itself. So, first of all, I tell people to start thinking like an officer. From the second you think, not that you want to be an officer, but the second that you think you want to be an officer, start acting like it. You know, start being more proactive on completing your tasks that are assigned to you, looking at a bigger picture of crew readiness, looking at your operational priorities and and your organizational priorities and how do you live your life on a daily basis to best represent the mission, vision, values of the department. you really have to take that informal leadership role, and really work on developing your interpersonal skills and kind of seek opportunities outside your your comfort zone because you are trying to be excellent at your current job, but also you're trying to learn cred and build credibility through Through the experiences that you are taking on. One of the biggest things we say is we see is the people having difficulty transitioning from the firefighter to the officer. So start understanding the boundaries that your current officer has between them theirselves and their crews. and whether or not they are taking accountability because those are our things that we're gonna look for. Also seek seek feedback early. Look at from your current officer, from adjacent officers that you run calls with. You know, what are things that are strengths and weaknesses that are going to help you or hinder you from be from being successful at that next position. Really that's not promoting is not the time that you become the leader just by being promoted. It's a development process. And so you need to really recognize that. After you are decided all that and have been working on that, and then you're preparing for the exam, it's really good to understand the promotional process, like we just talked about. And I cannot reiterate how important that that introductory video or or conference that the organizational or that the consultant company puts together. That is critical because they will talk about the dimensions. They'll help you understand what they are, how you will be graded on those measured, how those are measured. They'll tell you what exercises will be on the test so that you can properly prepare for them. You need to build a study plan, not just this random today I'm going to do this. because tech typically what we do is we end up studying the stuff that we're most comfortable with and leaving out the stuff that we're most uncomfortable with. So have a good plan. you have to practice. You cannot just memorize these things. You have to practice orally. You have to practice in front of other people. You have to prepare for personal challenges. For instance, that that personnel issue or role play section of the test is a really difficult thing and uncomfortable thing for officers to address in real life. And so you need to practice that. you need to have your crews bringing you problems that are you know scenarios that that are not hopefully not real that you can help that you can help problem solve with. And on occasion maybe your officer will bring you in and say, Yeah, help me pro problem solve this. And I and then to interject a little bit right here, when you said that a lot of when we're talking about test developers and such. A lot of the questions and scenarios and such you see on tests are issues that your own department is having. Absolutely. So like you mentioned, you know, your policies and if you know your policies and procedures and your SOGs and and everything else, once that list, that reading list comes out of the books that might be on your written test, you're already ahead of the game because you already know all that. Right. So it's like you don't just I mean, people start they see a job description, job announce announcement, and then it's like They like all of a sudden they're locked in. I want to read these books, I wanna study, I wanna do this, I wanna do that. And then it's like, help me p pass the assessment center. And it's like you could probably we could probably teach someone how to pass an assessment center, but it's like, is that gonna make them a good officer? Well, and you wanna be they're competitive with the other people, right? So you have to you know, I all I when I am coaching and I I do coaching on the side, so I Tell I ask the people, what are the top five? And I want five issues of your department. because the top one is the loudest, right? So is that the one that's going to be on your test? Probably not. It's the loudest. There's possibly, you know, changes coming. So there, but what what are these underlying problems that are occurring in your organization? And do you have thoughts on that? And ways to successfully help problem solve that. So look at what your what your top five issues are within your department, because I think that, and then apply those policies and procedures and ideas to that and discuss them with other people. You have to practice. when you go, for instance, a tactical exercise, I think that that was probably that when I tested, that was my weakest. link because I didn't practice with other people. I practiced by myself, but I did not practice with other people. So my comfort level was definitely less. And that showed and that it showed that I was hesitant. It showed I I met all the marks of it and I scored okay, but it showed that I was hesitant to make those decisions because I was intimidated by looking at these live assessors of some of which who I knew. And it it made me really insecure. So you have to practice in front of people that you know because then when you test in front of people that you don't know, it's so much easier. And you also are confident in the tactical decisions that you're making because when you step off your on that first day on your first fire, when you step off your rig, you're going to be handed a a sandwich and you want to be able to eat it fall. That's funny you said about the tactical. I think a lot of people that I've helped, they just want to focus on the tactical. I want to practice the tactical. And it's like, okay, that's that's fine, but that's a small percentage of what the fire department does is a tactical, a tactical response. Or and so it's like the people think in your head, the small things that get departments in trouble, which are the personnel issues, which are the written exercises when the public records come out and you got, you know. People writing the four with the number four, you, And it's like, how professional is it? and especially now, with the ec economic times we're in right now, is especially. Yeah. and I so I think I did the opposite. I knew that that was the those that was the crux of the job. And so I spent a lot of time on that, which which served served me very well. I think though that personally I would have liked to have nailed all of them. Not just like I mean you gotta be on to you have to be uncomfortable to get comfortable. So if you know what your weakness is before you even start preparing for an assessment center, we talked about we keep talking about oral communication, oral communication. You have to be able to communicate in Heidi, you've been on a numerous assessment centers. I've sat on numerous assessment centers. And if someone's sitting there clicking their pen and I would do and then and every other like within two minutes, they've said awe. A lot, it's very distracting, number one. And it's like we get your normal. the assessors don't want to see anyone fail. There's this perception with some people that the assessors are out to get you. One's gonna play good cop, one's gonna play bad cop, and that's so far from the truth. It's like we're on the other side of someone that's pre that's prepared, put their life on hold the majority of the cases, and studied, studied, studied, took classes, went to seminars and everything. We do not want to see you fail. We're actually gonna We want to see you be successful, but you have to prepare for this test. So I mean, the main thing is if you're uncomfortable with something, keep doing it till you feel comfortable and stick outside your comfort zone. Yeah. Lisa, you're absolutely right. And how do you do that? You know, you you figure out which one of those scenarios is really uncomfortable for you. Don't leave out the rest of them, but put yourself in an uncomfortable situation so that when you're in front of those people, the then front of the assessors, it's it's not that big of a deal to you. I think one thing to remember when you're looking at those assessors is like you said, one, we want everyone to succeed. And what we are looking for at the heart of it is someone that we want to work with or work for. Exactly. And and represent who is going to represent our department, their department, and and never gonna look back and say, God, why did we promote them? Exactly. We want people that are not just competent at the job, but that are real people. So we're not looking. So don't come into an assessment center and look at the assessors and think, that's a female. She's gonna want me to address every female issue on the in the fire service. Like, no, that's not. I'm a fire officer. I want you to address the issues that we are asking you. And I want you to be yourself. I don't want you to be someone that you think. I want you to be. Be yourself. Be the officer that you're going to be in the firehouse and on the fire ground. And you will be successful. And I mentioned. And you aren't, sorry, look, if if you aren't successful, you will give us specific dimensions that we will be able to write feedback on for you to improve and nail it the next time. Exactly. And we and I said, you know, a lot of people once the I I mean, I saw people that never had any aspirations to be a company officer, never showed any kind of leadership skills. And by that I mean go along with the thing. And if you're sitting at the kitchen table and everybody's bashing, you know, administration or bashing this or whatever. And you're sitting there right, right, right bashing back with them. And now all of a sudden you want to be a company officer, remember your reputation starts the minute you walk in the door at the training division. You have companies down there that are watching you and assessing you, not even if there's a test, they're watching how you interact with people and such. So if you really have aspirations to be a company officer, probably should start the minute you get off probation or even before you get off probation. It because if if if you're a person that messes up all the time, always late, never has on a uniform, looks sloppy, and now all of a sudden you pass the test, and now you're telling people you can't do that, you can't do that. A lot of them, especially if you're a younger officer, are gonna come back with. Wait, time out. That's what you did three days ago or a month ago. Now you're telling me I can't do it. So the the level of respect is not going to be there. And some people think that they got that badge on that says Captain Lieutenant, that I'm deserve respect. And it's there, there's a small level that you do do deserve respect, but in the fire storms, you earn somebody's respect. And you could agree to disagree with that. But you earn people's respect. And so we keep harping on, you know, prepare for the test and such. Because that's gonna make you if you if you somehow don't aren't successful in the test the first time, you know what? It's gonna make you a better firefighter until you take the next test and are successful because now you're gonna know your your department's agency, your agency's policies and procedures. You're gonna know all that and you're gonna like, okay, I need to change my attitude here because obviously what you did was not correct. But I think that you can sum that up into accountability, right? how you handled adversity in the station and how you took accountability for your part in that. How you it like you said, showing up the at the fire ground, people are going to watch how you are. If you do something that was wrong or make mistakes, it's how you respond to that, not the fact that you made a mistake. It's tell me, it's did you recognize it? What do I do better? It's always striving to be better. And I think that That that accountability portion, it it gives people it gives people pause. Like, yeah, they screwed that up, but they learned from it. And the other key is that is they were they were big enough or to admit that they messed it up. Absolutely. My fault. I made that my mistake, my mistake, I made that and learned from it. So And it's not all about saying, yeah, my bad. It's it is about actually what you said, learning from it and then showing that you learn from it from it. And asking for help. Exactly. So what's the biggest mistake that you see when someone's taking the tactical portion as an assessor? You're an assessor and they're doing the tactical portion. What's your biggest mistake that you see people make? I feel like on the tactical portion, people are just trying to put the fire out quickly and they are not addressing the critical factors. they forget what the the assignments are that the department has put down in their SOGs. You know, whether the very first thing that you do is are they doing a good size up? Are they getting their 360? Whether departments do them or not, I think nowadays most most people are either getting it done or assigning it to ensure that it's done. through your your policies and procedures, whether you address a writ team or not. That's a writ team, a team team. but if you're if your department assigns writ, did you remember to do that? but addressing all of your critical factors, whether it's fire attacks, search, water supply, 360, whichever tactics, there should be a practice of how you are going through your strategy and tactics to address the tactical scenario. On the statics, I think most of it is people not understanding what the static scenario truly is. And that they can't read your mind. And it's stuff that you wouldn't say on the radio, but you are thinking. So you have to be able to talk with some clarity, not a bunch of rambling words that don't mean anything, but talk about exactly what you do. I'm arriving on scene and seeing fire through the second floor. My size up is going to be this. My tactics are going to be this. This would be in my size up. I'm going to do a 360. And while I'm doing that, I'm assigning my firefighter to pull a line and do a transitional attack. My second do is we'll always get water supply, but I'm going to ensure by assigning them water supply. So you're talking through each one of the events that you're that you want to happen. versus in a static scenario where you might just be making those assignments and you're not actually talking through your Thought process. You're just doing the assignments on the radio. That's one of the reasons why they've gone back to that static scenario is so that they can actually not just see you run a fire on their radio, but they can actually see your thought process by what you are verbalizing to them. so I think that when they don't when people don't practice, then it it really shows that they don't have a smooth thought process when they're going to go on a real fire and attack the fire. And from what I've seen, no, you answered it. Very well. I wasn't sure. Did I answer? Okay. I got sidetracked. So from what I've seen is especially if you're a captain going for a battalion chief's test, is they're operating at the level they're currently on and not the level they're testing for. Because like for captain, you're testing for battalion chief, you have to realize battalion chief's gonna oversee the entire scene, not just one company. And another thing is not following the agency's policy and procedures as far as you know the writ company or two in, two out, or water supply and stuff. and what what a lot of departments now are going back to is because they want to see how your process or thought process is, is one of the questions is what are your pre-arrival considerations? Yeah, excellent. Yes. And people like they they don't understand what the pre-arrival and I tell people when I'm helping them, I'm like or coaching them. It's like think about when that alarm goes off, what are you thinking in your head? Cole was wealth, Wallace was hot or whatever. But if you're gonna use Cole was wealth and Wallace was hot and you have it memorized and it says what are your prearrival considerations and you start just rambling off coal was wealth and wallace was hot, and half of them don't apply to your going to a two story single family dwelling and you're talking about auxiliary supplies and and all this other stuff, it's like, okay, they don't really understand what a pre arrival consider. So that's where you stay, you know, and and You you were gonna hit the benchmark, but the assessors also realize you just memorize something and you don't really comprehend what the question was. Right. yeah. A good a good so oftentimes they're given the scenario, you are you're getting dispatched to a smoke investigation at a single story residential structure. you got to work today, it was thirty degrees, the roads were icy, and it's going to be cloudy and cold all day. So you've been given that. So you, so I think that's one of the mistakes is people, well, the some of that is already covered. I don't need to re-regurgitate that. You're right. You don't need to tell me it was cold, it was there. But you need to tell me what your response problems could be. Like I know it's cold and icy. We are going to be slowed down. We're not gonna be, we have to be careful. We if we don't get to the fire because we slide off the road, we're in trouble. So you have to be able to address. That the truck is out of service. So my second U truck is going to be quite delayed. So my search team will probably not be the truck. It will probably be my third U engine. Those are the things that we want to hear about based on the information you were given. If you weren't given that information, then go with the weather that is today. Today is sunny and dry. I I know that there's no delays. I've looked at staffing. Staffing, there was no delays. I know that. Nobody is out of service. Nobody is at training yet. It's that time of the morning. We're first do you talk about some of the things that could affect your response readiness and your tactical develop your tactical priorities. Which and you only usually have 20, 20 to 30 seconds to respond to answer this question. So think about like just said, what are the key ones? Weather, time of day. Why is weather important? Like Heidi mentioned, you can slide off the rig. It's so hot outside, you might need rehab. time of day, is it is it a school versus, at nine o'clock in the morning as nine o'clock at night? Is rescue going to be needed? You know, what it what direction are the other apparatus responding to? Is this my normal compliment of, you know, addresses? or a compliment of apparatus responding. So it's that I think that's one of the biggest questions that mess people up. Or then the second question is now you've arrived on scene, give your size up. And now they start back to the first question and it's like You're on scene. I need a size up kind of thing, right? Right. And I think Answer the question. So that's like we talked about listening. listen to the questions. I mean, because most even if it's a live assessment center now, a lot of this information is on a computer screen and and the assessors are just hitting the button and you're answering these questions off of the off of the screen. And when you finish one, the next one's gonna come up. They're gonna give you the instructions for the next scenario. And the reason they're doing that is there was so many People said, Well, they said this to that person, they said that to that person, and it's it could have been as easy as the the person said of instead of was in a scenario they're reading to the candidate. So even if it's a live assessment better center, but be prepared, the assessors are not going to interact with you. It's gonna more than likely be on a computer screen, they're gonna hit the screen and the the screen, the that computer or iPad, whatever is gonna do all the information for you on that screen. So listen or you will be reaching. On a piece of paper the exact question that they are reading to you. They'll give you the question as well. Yes. Right. Or a lot of times if it's a personnel issue, the question stays up there. They're gonna say, you know, and then they'll read the questions or the question, you know, is it's like so it's the assessors and and a lot of departments have gone away from the assessors interacting reading anything except maybe the instructions, because like I said, it could have been was or if and just that little thing and people are gonna, you know. say well it wasn't fair this wasn't fair so we talked about preparing and such and anyone that you know googles or there's probably flyers in your fire station should a candidate take an assessment center prep class for a company unfamiliar with their own agency's operational procedures so you see a flyer and assessment center prep class is coming up it's four days it's $500 and or whatever how much ever they charge and should somebody go take this assessment center class? I I think that the the more the more personally, the more information you have, the better officer you're going to be, the more you learn. I think that if this is your first assessment center, it is really important to be you you have to understand that if their tactics are not the same or their that their processes are not the same as your department, that that could lead you down the wrong road. So I would be cautious of that. Once you have gotten through that first level of a promotion, then I think those just add to the depth of your knowledge because you also know that you can't just employ those tactics at your department because because you you took this class. there's some really great, really great preparation classes that are out there, but they would would definitely lead you down a different path if it wasn't the way that your department wanted to do it. So if you're a person who cannot translate that into your own SOGs, I would be cautious about doing that in your first for your first promotional exam. However, I do think or in addition, I do think that each organization should add, should have some sort of promotional process that is a practice, whether it is a practice testing organization I there's an organization here in Colorado that they actually do a two-day practice. assessment center for their candidates. What that does is it gets them familiar with the candidate pro with the whole assessment process, but it also allows the outside assessors will will volunteer to do this. And it allows us the ability to then coach them immediately. As soon as they're done, we we will give them we will grade their assessment and then we give them feedback. And they really grow. Just not just as officers, but in the assessment center process as well. the department I worked for does an a command academy where we're really taught and it's really drilled into you all these portions that they want you to be do to be successful for an for to become an officer. And that's part of our promotional process. You have to take that even before you can start your book to your task book. So I agree with you about the outside agencies. The testing, some some of them have really good information. I mean, but if you're gonna go to it, especially the tactical, how Heidi mentioned, be very cautious if they're telling you something that your department does not use. I was an assessment on a a neighboring department and they don't use stain guns to knock the fire down before they go inside of a three-story apartment building, and a couple of them had done that. And as soon as we're done, a lot of times at the end of it, the but deputy chief or chief of the department, they'll come in and ask how our candidates were and what could we do to make our candidates better in the future once everything's done and everything's graded. And when we said, you know, well, they used a stain gun, you know, to do this, and his first response was, I'm not gonna repeat his first his actual words, but it was like they took this dang class that this guy teaches because we don't do that. And I'm like, Yeah, we we we had to go ask. And it was actually an automatic failure at that point because so many of them were going to do something that was highly dangerous. But that's what they were taught. So I think like with when I first took my first assessment center, there was a company that was doing a set I was unfamiliar with what an assessment center was. So I went and took it and I did learn they talked about the end basket, the personnel problem and such. So that was very beneficial. But with the tactical, you know, you kind of learn to self-command and stuff. But as far as the t actual tactics you're going to use, stick with your own department's tactics. And then another way to prepare is, I mean, watch YouTube videos. I mean, there's you I mean, there is so much at your hands now that weren't probably at the hands of a lot of people that are your current officers right now. YouTube videos are, I mean, they have they'll show the department that just made how to fire, or you can go on there and practice command presence and command how to set up command and stuff. And then drive. And you can record yourself. Record yourself when you're doing your size ups and what and everything you're while you're watching that video, record yourself as if you were command. And if you are even for a battalion chief, you can do that. And one of the things you can do is you can listen to radio traffic. for preparing for battalion chief. You're not first on scene typically. So listen to the radio traffic that is coming across for that fire so that when you come on scene. And they they will say, battalion three zone scene, you pause it, you do what you would do as your battalion chief, because it's possible that department doesn't do it the same way. But there you have an ability to to interact with this with these videos. I think it's really valuable, but I would record yourself. because there's a lot of humility that comes with watching yourself and listening to yourself. And then another way is drive around your own your own department departments, different communities or different, areas in the community. And how would you, if that house is on fire, what would you do? Heidi just said, record yourself. Sit there, give a recording, practice it. you can make up the fire anywhere you want in your head. And then talk with your crew. Talk to people that have recently taken a test, not only in your other agency, in your own agency, but Neighboring agencies or maybe agencies not even that are neighboring you, maybe the next state over. like we said, there's only a handful of consulting firms, and there's a high probability that maybe another de agency that you have friends with or colleagues at have taken a test from the same the same testing process and then talk to people in the position. there's some officers obviously, I hate to say this, but some officers are not respected because you wonder how they did ever pass the assessment center, probably. But you can learn something from everybody. So ask them questions. watch how they operate on a daily basis and just put in the back of your mind that I want to make sure I don't ever do that. And that'll make you a better officer if they're doing something that's just totally bizarre. So Yeah, I think that there's plenty of opportunities to practice. kind of l let yourself, you know, I guess vulnerability is no longer the word to be used, but be vulnerable, accept some constructive criticism. surround yourself with people that can that won't just say, yeah, good job, try harder, but that will actually give you some objective feedback on what you need to do to improve. You have to make yourself vulnerable in in some areas. So I just kind of talked about it that not everyone that takes an assessment center, unfortunately, is going to be an assess a successful officer. Some people are very good test takers and they kind of slide through the process. but an assessment center has been proven to be the most valid assessment of a candidate for the position. So, and then a lot of I'm I we're almost out of time, but I want to add a lot of in my agency, a lot of people used to say it took so long for the scores to come out because they're being manipulated and they're doing this, they're doing that. And the the consultants are they they're getting the paperwork. When you're done, you hand it to them, they're making sure everything's correct that your numbers are within, you know, the The parameters that they want the assessor's numbers, someone's given to a 10 and five, there's an issue, they saw something I didn't see. Let's talk about this and come to some kind of resolution. So we're we're in more alignment here. But the consultant is the one giving your department numbers. They're like the one figuring out the it's not your department that's making up numbers, says some people think that are being made up. So we're almost out of time. Heidi. do you have anything you want to add about the assessment center or how to prepare or how to be successful? I I just I'll start back with if you are thinking about becoming an officer, start acting like one now. And when you are taking the assessment center, be the lieutenant that you would want to work for, be the captain that you would want to work for, be the battalion chief that you would want to work for. that and that doesn't mean and if if if that means You don't want them make sure that that's in line with what the job responsibilities are. If you want a battalion chief that's completely hands off, so you're gonna act like that, you won't pass you won't pass the exam. The the department's expectations of a battalion chief are are are all over the board, but most people want them commu most departments want them communicating with their crews regularly. they want them involved. Maybe some departments want them to participating in training more often than not. So if you are the person that says, I don't want a hands-on battalion chief, you won't pass the exam. We also will see through, if you are not authentic, we will see through that. So be authentic. And if you don't pass the assessment center, being authentic, ask for feedback, take the feedback, take the feedback, find a mentor and work on that. And yeah, and the only thing I'd want to add is. Once you are an officer, know your crew. We all know that mental health is is in the forefront, which it should be, but know your crew. Know if there's something going on before it's too late. So check in with your crew on a daily basis. even if you're an officer listening to this and want to promote to a higher level, no notice the d the difference in behavior from your crew from one day to the next, or even from one hour to the next hour, so that you could address it before it's too late. don't be afraid. Yeah, don't be afraid exactly. So I want to thank Heidi for being a part of the radio show. If you want to give your email out, Heidi, in case people have any questions. Yeah. my email is HAS like Dorid has 289 at gmail.com. and yeah, any questions. I did get some questions from the embasket. So I'm more than happy to ask, answer any questions or help anybody out when you need it. And okay, and my email is lbaker at women in fire.com. I'm sorry, dot org. Lbaker at women in fire dot org. thank you to fire engineering, and again, thanks to all our listeners and members of Women of Fire. You can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and you could check out our website at womeninfire.org. Thank you for listening. Thanks, sister.