Latest / Twin Mom Life / Strength and Self-Love: Navigating Twins, Divorce and the ADHD Experience As a Working Mom
Transcript
- Jessielee Sittig: Hello and welcome to the Twin Mom Life podcast. I'm your host, Jess. I created this podcast to help build community, connection, and most importantly, friendships among moms of multiples. Being a twin mom can be amazing and magical. That twin bond is unlike anything I've ever witnessed, but it can also be isolating and overwhelming. I'll be chatting with other twin moms, diving deep into the twin experience. Thank you for taking the time out of your busy twin mom life to listen along. I hope this podcast shed some light on a topic that's been on your heart and gave you more confidence as a twin mama. If you know a twin mom, please send this her way. If you like what you heard today, please subscribe to the podcast and leave a review. Check out the show notes to be connected with today's guest and get discount codes for brands I love. See you next Thursday. Until then. I'm thankful you're here. And I'm thankful to talk about all the good stuff. Because I feel like you have a lot of experiences that are unique. And I'm excited to dive into it. Hi, welcome to the podcast. Today we have Ellen, how are you? Thank you. I'm good. I'm so excited. to do this. We too and we're in person. I haven't done an in-person interview in a long time. So I'm so excited to have you like physically here. Welcome to my house. Thank you. Yeah, it's beautiful and peaceful out here and no kids running around at present. yeah. Yes. Well, thanks for coming out. can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Sure. Yeah. I'm also local to the Austin area. I have But before we do, can you tell us how you filled your cup today or if you have plans to do so? Yes. Today's a good day in my life for cup filling because it's Monday as we're recording this and I have Mondays off from work, which was adjustment that I made to kind of give myself a day. And I also just wanted to mention how giving advice on what works for us so you don't have to learn the hard way. Juggling two babies at the same time is challenging, but I'm confident we can learn from each other and figure out how to raise these babies together. You are made for this. Fraternal boy-girl twins who are five years old at present. They're my only kids. I am divorced, so single parenting, split in custody with their dad. And I work as a individual psychotherapist. ⁓ And yeah, a whole lot more to get into with the ⁓ twin experience. yeah, just looking forward. I wish I had... just integral it is to fill one's cup as a twin mom. I mean, it's about survival, you know? I had to learn that I needed to be more protective of my own needs in order to be a more effective mom. And so I'm doing a lot more just kind of day to day being mindful of what my needs are. I went and picked up a coffee for myself today. Yay. Yes. this podcast to listen to when I was really struggling in earlier stages. Yeah, I feel you on that. I'm currently pregnant as a surrogate, ⁓ for a couple that I know and, going into this pregnancy, I'm just more aware of what my needs are. think I have to be with my twins. and know, don't have the luxury ⁓ of resting when I want to rest all the time. So, I got like a pregnancy support belt cause I have some SI joint discomfort. So it's just nice to be able to be aware of, ⁓ because in my twin pregnancy, was like, I'm uncomfortable. think that's just how it is though. Doing stuff like that, like early to make sure that you're physically comfortable. Like there's no need to be uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I'm just 15 weeks now. So it's relatively early in the process, but yeah, it's one baby though. So very different from twin pregnancy. you pregnant twin moms, it's really rough. ⁓ Yeah. It's rough. If it's temporary. Yes, you could do it. But yeah, it's so hard. That was I know I've like joked about this before. And this isn't a joke. This is true that I did schedule my husband's vasectomy while I was pregnant. just was like, couldn't physically do it again. So I'm impressed. And just how amazing to be able to offer like to be able to be a surrogate for somebody going through infertility struggles. It's really special and incredible. And I'm just really impressed that you did it after a twin pregnancy. So it's just so unbelievably kind and generous and amazing. Yeah, it's a pretty meaningful experience. I really appreciate getting to offer this service, you know, and it's something that they've really struggled with. People that I knew, I wouldn't have necessarily pursued this just on my own. But yeah, it was nice to. ⁓ get to kind of be a part of that in their life and help them to accomplish something that they've really struggled with for a long time. And can you tell us about your twin pregnancy and delivery? Yeah, absolutely. So gosh, I mean, could have, there could be a whole episode on just the pregnancy and delivery, all of it. So my mom had home births with her three children and I always kind of expected to do the same. so when I found out I was pregnant, I found midwife and actually this was around COVID time my babies were born in January, 2021. ⁓ So we to totally rearrange our wedding plans because of COVID. ⁓ I'm sorry. ⁓ Luckily, it was just going to be a small family wedding anyways, but still definitely inconveniencing. And then we ended up getting married with the Justice of the Peace in April 2020. And then I was pregnant in May 2020. so anyways, I had only, I think, done one in-person visit with the midwife because otherwise it was virtual. And we did listen. to the heartbeat with a Doppler, but I didn't have an early ultrasound. So looking back, she found the heartbeat and then, you know, the baby moved and she lost it and she moved the Doppler and then she found the heartbeat again. And I wonder if that was the same baby or she moved up on the other baby. ⁓ anyways, ⁓ wasn't evident that I was having twins until the anatomy scan. So we had decided that we did not want to find out the sex of the baby, but The day before the anatomy scan, had said to my husband at the time, I think if it's twins, I do want to know the sex. you know, what made you say that? You had some kind of inkling or something. Well, mean, I yes and no. I was still shocked when I found out, but I started to show a little sooner on. My weight gain was a little faster. You know, it's reading up on week to week what to expect. So I had an inkling that maybe I could be having twins and the fact that I had not actually seen what's happening inside. Sure. Right. know. Prepare for different possibilities. when I said that to the ultrasound tech, and of course it's just me in the room, my husband at the time was on FaceTime, like, no one said that before, you know, and I opened up with, well, if it's twins. And so when she started doing the ultrasound, she said, how did you know? And I was like, how did I know what? And she's like, that you're having two. And I was like, you're joking, right? Like, this isn't real. And no, she's like, yeah, there's two babies. And I was just like blown away. And the first day, I was so excited and thrilled. And then the next day, I was terrified. You were like the reality. Yeah. But at first, I mean, I've always wanted to be a mom. I've always wanted two to four kids. This is my first pregnancy. So was like two right off the bat. Whenever I used to play the game Life and I landed on the twins spot, that was like my favorite spot. ⁓ my gosh, that's so funny. love that. like, ⁓ this is gonna be great. And ⁓ I found out the first ⁓ A was a boy. ⁓ And I was like, oh my gosh, like I did, I wanted a boy, one of three girls. But of course having boy girl is ideal. I really wanted to get to experience having a boy and a girl. And so that was really cool to find out. Yeah, a lot to take in all at once. Well, especially at 20 weeks. Yeah, you're like, you know, at least I feel like the majority of people probably find out earlier and then you can kind of come to terms and figure out the logistics and plan. So halfway through you're like, whoa. And then it probably changed things like, okay, now you're thinking about delivery and what does that mean? Yeah, so the midwife that I was working with wasn't comfortable with home birth with the first time mom with twins. so I realized too that hospital birth would just probably be the best outcome with all of the different things that can happen with twin birth. And so I had to really just kind of, do a mental 180 with my plans. I never been hospitalized. I was terrified about the idea of being in a hospital. you know, I really and you have to prepare yourself for so many different possible outcomes. I ended up deciding that I wanted to have the most natural birth possible. And a lot of that was up to chance, of course. My OB was comfortable with vaginal delivery as long as baby A was head down, which is the case for a lot of them. And babies flip-flopped throughout the pregnancy. So I was like, oh, I don't know. That's hard when your plans are like up and down. yeah, sure. started, my labor started plus three. I noticed what might be amniotic fluid. I was thinking, oh, this could be like a slow leak situation. I didn't want to go to the hospital right away because I didn't want to be induced if I didn't have to So by that evening, I had actually consulted with the midwife and She gave me a test strip and it showed that it was negative. Um, but by that evening, you know, she was like, uh, it'd be a good idea to just call the OB. And of course they told me right away, go to the hospital. So we did. so they admitted me, they, did a check and they, they verify that it was in fact, amniotic fluid. Like a slowly slowly. Okay. Yeah. So they admitted me and, allowed just time. mean, they did a lot of it set up IV and they did the ultrasound and they confirmed baby a was head down. I think they were both head down at admission. I was zero centimeters dilated. This is about it. We went to the hospital about 9 30 PM. and so ⁓ they kind of left me alone after they got me admitted and established to see if things progress naturally. and at one 30 in the morning, I was laying in the hospital bed and I actually like intentionally was just laying there like, okay, let me just like decompress from my stress of being in the hospital. I was like trembling and just like letting my body like, okay, it's gonna be okay. Let me just like feel you know, this fear and let it like wash over me. And that's when my water broke. ⁓ wild. So I think my son kicked because it felt like a kick that kind of burst. And right away my contractions started. I called the doula. I could only have one person plus a support, like a doula, in the room. know, at the COVID time. We had to do COVID tests in the hospital. And fortunately, the doula was helpful in that she recognized that my labor was progressing quicker than they. would have realized I had, you know, it hadn't been too long, maybe a couple of hours. I got up to use the bathroom and she's like, are you having the urge to push? And I was like, yeah, now that you mentioned it, I think that's what I'm feeling. so she alerted the nurse. She's like, hey, like I think you need some change. I was 10 centimeters dilated. Like, ⁓ wow. centimeters of admission. They don't take first time moms seriously with that. Like how quickly labor can actually progress. Yeah. Because I mean, I've heard stories of, it's in labor for 36 hours. Sure. Sure. And you're like, this was a couple hours. And to go from zero to 10, in what, like, how many hours would you say? I mean, I hadn't even started labor when I got in. So it's kind of hard to say where I was at 1.30 when my water broke versus they probably checked me around. 10 or 11 p.m. I wasn't looking at the clock. But probably like eight hours or less something like that. And so they wheeled me into the operating room because that's where twin moms deliver. ⁓ yeah and I ⁓ also want mention that you know it's highly encouraged to get an epidural. ⁓ because the risk of not getting an epidural, you did have to have a C-section, then they'd have to put you under. And I realized that I was okay with taking that risk if ⁓ meant the likelihood or possibility of having a vaginal birth. And so I opted not to get the epidural and ⁓ was just that everything would go smoothly. And the birth was the... Fortunately for me the smoothest part of the twin Experience, know, the postpartum was super rough. The pregnancy was real rough on my body, especially towards the end But the birth I was preparing myself for the worst pain imaginable and It wasn't that bad in my experience. So fortunately that was that was you know, that's incredible and what? What an amazing brave decision to make, especially being a first time mom and not really having like a reference point. I think that's impressive ⁓ to make that decision that you to do it unmedicated without having experienced that and with twins. ⁓ So that's pretty incredible. ⁓ I have had high standards myself ⁓ much of the twin mom experiences. probably get into some more. So, but yeah, I mean, I am really glad that I was that everything was able to unfold How many minutes apart are they? Eight minutes. OK, yeah. Yeah, my boys are seven. Oh, we're close. so, yeah, my son was born and they put him on my chest and. they they took them off for me. didn't remember that's so good. Yeah, they were like, Okay, yeah, I know you need to The next one, although I remember I was trying to soothe him as I was like pushing her out. was like, ⁓ it's okay. It's okay. That's so sweet. Like your motherly instincts like came over immediately. That's really, really sweet. Yeah. Although at the same time, like, it's like, you should just it's it's fine. Like they cry. I had to learn to be comfortable with like, okay, just because they're crying doesn't mean you need to like help them stop crying that moment. It's hard though. I really struggled that with with my daughter. And I had never heard the term purple crying. Have you heard that? It's basically like, they're just crying, like nothing. They're not hungry. Their diaper is checked or like their diaper has been cleaned. There's literally nothing wrong other than sometimes babies cry. like the witching hour. And I had never heard that term. And yeah, so I'll have to look into it. I don't think I believe in that because I think there's so many things we don't know. I'm overstimulated, I'm understimulated, stomach's uncomfortable. ⁓ It doesn't mean that there's always intervention needed still, but yeah, which I think has been challenging for my mothering journey as I'm like, I need to figure this out. But so I was, they were born at like six in the morning, about six pounds. I did see the placentas. That was really cool. ⁓ I'm glad. Yeah. And so was up all night and then just immediately this postpartum anxiety kicked in people had told you know, take advantage of the hospital resources that they'll look after your babies for you. You can rest. And I was just like, No, I need to have eyes on my babies at all times and make sure everything's okay. And so I did not get a minute of sleep that next And it was a really rude awakening for me. I was in the hospital, like actively hallucinating ⁓ for sleep So really jumped into the deep end ⁓ on When you started off sleep deprived because you labored all night. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's not like you get great sleep while you're pregnant either. But yeah, I was really wrestling with myself. This is the beginning of my journey of figuring out I need to take care of myself in order to be able to take care of my babies more effectively. But yeah, I remember that trying to talk to the nurse like, how do I do this? can I keep myself functional here? Also, they started me pumping from the start of their birth and we tried latching them for breastfeeding. My daughter caught on pretty quickly. She was natural with breastfeeding. And my son had a slight tongue tie and, different professionals would come in and say like, oh, hi, I'm the surgeon. We can do this pretty quick and easy. then they're like, you know, let's do it while you're here. And then the lactation consultant would come in and say, I don't think it's really necessary. think he's doing okay. a lot of, I found the hospital stay really overwhelming. They handed me a questionnaire like, do you think you're experiencing postpartum depression? I'm like, what? can't even think straight. There's so much happening. Yeah. Checking on you, you know, every couple hours and so much support and it's really helpful. But so I was starting pumping every three hours. They kind of helped me to start getting into that, try latching my son. son ended up having jaundice ⁓ so he was really sleepy and ⁓ them to be born, I think it's technically late preterm at 36 weeks and four days. They're underdeveloped. That was something I hadn't really prepared myself for. going into the twin experience how most twin babies, unfortunately we didn't need NICU time. They technically premature, but you know, a few more weeks in utero I think would have made a big difference with their digestive systems. So he really sleepy with the jaundice and ⁓ you know, way to treat that is to make sure they get more and more milk to kind of flush it out. ⁓ And we didn't up having to use the light treatment. Okay. We started him on bottles and he just took to that a lot more readily. And so I ended up breastfeeding my daughter and pumping for my son did that for two and a half years. ⁓ it was a whole journey. ⁓ bet. Well, okay. And I absolutely can't wait to dive into that. Yeah. Before we do, I have questions about the hospital. Because I feel like I don't think I've talked about this either, but I feel like we experienced a very similar hospital stay with our twins where we were almost to the point, we were at the point where my husband said, I cannot drive home. I physically do not feel comfortable driving my wife and my two babies home because I am so sleep deprived. So we were offered help with our daughter that we did not accept. Okay. And then with the twins, we were not offered help. the don't get me wrong. The nurses were great. but it wasn't like anyone was saying, would you like us to take your babies to the quote unquote nursery and let you sleep for an hour or what it might be. So I think we were in the hospital for four or five days and the last day had to do a car seat test. I'm not sure. Okay. So ours had to do that because they're under a certain weight and it was 90 minutes. So we were like, can you do the car seat test in a different room at the same time? so we can have 90 minutes uninterrupted so we can try to sleep. That was the only time that we slept in the hospital. Because it's like, know, like you said, people are coming in, they're doing vitals on you and your two babies. And we were constantly getting glucose checks or probably checking bilirubin ⁓ people are coming in to do hearing tests and eye tests and ⁓ of the things. And it was so overwhelming. ⁓ I don't think I've ever talked with anyone about how overwhelming the hospital stay was with twin. So how did you guys deal with that? I mean, honestly, it's so hard to back that. time. you even remember? Like what people ask you, you your question made me think of what people ask you like, how do you do it? You know, and the only answer I can think is you just do you just do. I mean, we just had like we were in survival mode from the from the start and it just compounded from there. I mean, like we were fresh into it at that point, right? And then you add on. months and know days and weeks and months. Fortunately my mom was able to my parents lived out of state and my mom was able to come and stay with us. she was at our house waiting when we got home from the hospital. That's amazing. Yes ⁓ it was so ⁓ My at the time wasn't able to take much time off work postpartum but I my other you know parental figure there. go through it because it really, ⁓ I feel like three adults per baby would be ⁓ right kind of number, you know, and with twins, it's just, ⁓ so many hands necessary. I I can't even. ⁓ We have these papers that shows the time and which baby that was fed, which baby's diaper was changed, because you cannot mentally keep track of it all. Oh, yeah, no way. And if I see those papers now, I'm just like, it's a visceral reaction of PTSD. sure. I do agree, though. When we got home, we were still very sleep deprived, but things got easier. And then you have separate spaces where you're like, I need to go lay down for 30 minutes. while someone else where like you don't have like the the gift of space in the hospital, right? Like you're in one room and they're like, you can't, there's no getting out of that. So we couldn't wait to get home to see our daughter and to be with family. And yes, so ⁓ we a similar, very overwhelming experience ⁓ in hospital afterwards. So. then gosh I remember early days you know we had to go to the pediatrician like the day after we were released from the hospital and then I had to go again because of the jaundice you know the so there was know yeah I felt like you're just kind of kicked into this is your ⁓ parenting life now sink or swim you know ⁓ but thing I wanted to say is that I when I I was pregnant with twins so I have an aunt who has boy girl twins okay ⁓ it wasn't the genetic link there. She had fertility support in that process. when I talked to her about it, know, shared that I was pregnant with twins, she said, you know, people might say it's twice as hard. It's actually more than twice as hard as having a singleton. I was like, I'm sure you're exaggerating. how can that be? That doesn't make sense. But it really, ⁓ I believe it now, twin mom math, it's not just double, yeah, for sure. And the mom guilt of I cannot give one baby my full, I never got to have that, twins being my first. When I was pregnant and telling people that I was having twins, and I'd say, are these your first? babies and they would say, ⁓ well, you know, at least that's all you know. And in my mind, that was a disadvantage because I did not know how to be a parent to one baby, you know, let alone two. And it was just such a steep learning I wish I had done more to prepare, but at the same time, there's just no preparing for it. But a couple of things that come to mind are learning how to use the breast pump before the babies come. Because I was just like, oh yeah, there it is in the box. I'll figure it out. Yes, I couldn't agree more. like, was, of course, I didn't want to actually pump to induce labor or anything, but like, turn it on. Like, see how it works. the ones. Yes. Know how to like, how does this all fit together? There are 15 pieces. Yes. And does it work? Plug it in. all of those checks. Does it fit my nipples? Like, there's a lot of things that you don't. know to look at. And then also for me learning how to swaddle, that was something that like, if I had practiced more, think I would have been able to do it more readily. Because on a live squirmy baby, it's like, ⁓ gosh, like, do you do this? Yes. felt like such an amateur ⁓ parent. But yeah, totally agree with all that. And I feel, you know, having a singleton verse, it did make having twins next. I never want to say easy, but I had perspective where certain things I did know how to do. I've changed hundreds of diapers. I've swaddled. have, you know, breastfed with this baby and pumping was a whole new experience. But you know, I had lots of practice, so to speak. So I feel like it came slightly more naturally where I know we've talked about this like motherhood with my daughter was very challenging. There were lots of things that did not come naturally. I feel like having that experience with twins would have been very, very overwhelming. So but you also had a toddler when the twins came. So, you know, I can't imagine that aspect, too. But yeah, we have a lot of help still to this day. ⁓ we have a lot of help and I'm so helpful. You can access. ⁓ that was That was really challenging for me. And I think it was helpful to realize that just the sense of like a village is just not accessible or available in our society. And on top of that, not having a cohesive sense of how we parent our children and they're being so, it's so overwhelming all the different. I mean, I think it's beautiful that there's a lot of different ideas about, you know, this is important or, you know, do it this way. But It also, I think, contributes to this sense of, you know, feeling of isolation. And was helpful for me to realize that it wasn't just me. It was also just the way society is set up that made it so hard ⁓ go through that experience. Yeah. Yeah. That was a big thing, too. Like, I'm so thankful for the Internet and social media. And it can also be really overwhelming to be like, ⁓ my gosh. I feel like I was talking to my mother-in-law about like, we're going to do baby led weaning. And she was like, what the heck is that? Like, maybe had heard of that idea or that approach, but didn't know the name. there's all these things online. And some of them are so helpful, but it is so overwhelming of like, what's right? It's a lot. And obviously, that is something that's new in our generation of parenting, like that didn't exist before. So it's almost like too much information is circling and some of it is bad, you know? So, and I also want to pivot from there and just speak to another parallel experience is that was diagnosed with ADHD. I think when my kids were two or three, which was Totally like out of left field for me. I had never that never been on my radar I did well in school ⁓ my sister brought up that you know She was diagnosed since she said that maybe I had it and I was struggling so much to be a I was a stay-at-home mom for the first three ⁓ and so thing that I think society has really helped us to be more aware of with Social and people sharing experiences more broadly, you know, we're much more able to recognize how ADHD presents in females versus males. just for me, ⁓ sensory overwhelm ⁓ the noise from the babies ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ trying to ⁓ a structure. There's so many aspects ⁓ the ⁓ experience, but it was so helpful for me to learn more about myself. and what worked for me and what didn't. And acknowledging the individual differences that can show up in babies ⁓ in just people in general, right, which shows up in babies. Apparently, to the internet, about 40 % of babies are easy babies. ⁓ And neither my babies were. always were on the low end of the range of sleep. You know, how many hours of sleep should you get at 12 months? You know, it was always like the minimum amount of sleep. And that can make a big difference. Other kids I see like, at the playground, they can like, ⁓ at one like at the, you know, xylophone and just like, do that activity for like a half an hour. ⁓ kids are all over the playground all the time. My kids were climbers. My son climbed onto the kitchen table at 12 or 13 months old, and my daughter climbed on the plate kitchen over. I mean, I'm spotting her. Just like, how far can she go? She climbed over the counter into the kitchen sink. I'm like, oh my gosh, you go girl. also, stop please. They both walked at 11 months. Like I have so I think it's amazing how much they're like go getters. They're fearless. But it's also so challenging as a as a parent, you know, when your kids are just all over the place going in different directions. So that was overwhelming. Well, I'm glad that you looked into that because yeah. it's hard to not be like, why is motherhood so hard for me? And it's because every baby has a very different temperament. Yeah. And a friend who might have a quote unquote easy baby who like sleeps through lunch, ⁓ you're like, you're like, that would never ⁓ in a million years. ⁓ like you guys are having different experiences. ⁓ then that kind of validates what you're going through. So I'm glad that you were able to look into that and have a perspective. Yeah, because all of my babies have been very different. Kaia, not an easy baby. She was so challenging. And the boys kind of like we always joke they like flip flopped back and forth. Yeah, they were they were very few times they were hard at the exact same time. Like what you know, it truly would flip flop where one day I'm like, wow, I'm like baby wearing, you know, my son Wyatt all day because he's extra needy and my son Wayland is like sleeping over there peacefully and I was thankful that there was a balance there where I can just understand that that isn't always the case. And that does make things harder. So I'm glad that you were able to have that perspective of like you didn't have easy babies. And I'm sorry, I know that's just really hard. Yeah, thank you. Fortunately, I mean, I feel like things are so smooth at their five years old. I felt like you know, for me that infancy, toddlerhood, I mean, infancy was for me by far the hardest stage, toddlerhood, know, following and it's gotten progressively. I mean, it really has, I, in my experience, it has gotten easier. Of course, the challenges are different. Sure. But, you know, we're sleeping now, we're in a rhythm. They can talk to me. they can understand me. they have patience. You know, I can put a cake in front of them and they're not going to touch it. They could buckle themselves into their car There's just so much ⁓ that I feel like I can breathe a lot easier, I think back to work also really helped me to ⁓ regain some sense sanity ⁓ because I just felt like I was drowning in ⁓ motherhood. You know, alongside that. my marriage was just not in a good place. you know, that's a subject that I see a lot on, like the twin mom groups where marital strain ⁓ typical when you're going through ⁓ postpartum period. And sometimes, you know, it's like it gets harder and you get stronger and the relationship is more solidified. And other times it just you know, kind of contributes to things falling apart. ⁓ ⁓ know we really worked at it for a time, I think that ⁓ we of called it at a good time. We had done couples counseling for a while, but we recognized that we weren't really getting anywhere with it. And ⁓ now ⁓ we such great co-parenting relationship. really eased up. you as soon as we decided to separate, I felt like some of the pressure was relieved. We were kind of looking to each other to be that partner that that we were needing at the time. yeah, things. In an ideal situation when when I don't know what it's like when the marriage does last and feel supportive, but I imagine that, you know, that's just in And my experience was kind of an added strain in that period where, you know, we're having to navigate that. And it was a really scary time, not knowing how the family would adjust to that major ⁓ transition. And was really difficult for them transitioning, my daughter especially, transitioning to having, you know, stayed at home with me all day to going to you know, they went to Montessori daycare, which we just always called school. And, but you know, ⁓ got through it and they adjusted. And I feel like it ⁓ not as bad as I was bracing myself for ⁓ transition. And, you know, we celebrate holidays all together as a family. So. ⁓ Yeah. It's like you needed that separation to be like stronger for your kid. I think it's so I know that must have been so hard, but yeah, so great to recognize. And yeah, it sounds like it's a really great co-parenting situation now. Yeah. Yeah. It does feel like, again, a lot of the pressure was kind of taken off. And, you know, I know that it's something that I'm still kind of getting a sense of how it's impacted the kids. And I know it's hard for them going back and forth between households, I trust that, you know, what's best for their parents individually is going to be ultimately best for them. And yeah, just kind of making room for room for that. But they're thriving. They have been like in the 90th percentile for height and weight, like throughout. ⁓ that will and that brings me back to thinking about all the breast milk that you provide. So I know we took like a little tangent, but I would love to talk about that. So you had a very interesting situation where you breastfed one twin and pumped for another. So can you tell us about about that? Yeah, you know, I had hoped that I'd be able to breastfeed both of them. And I really worked at that. You know, even as we were feeding my son bottles, would still try and latch him. ⁓ remember we'd often like I'd start with trying to breastfeed him. And then, ⁓ know, it wouldn't be taking and so we'd feed him bottle and, ⁓ I kept trying. And ⁓ some point, I just kind of came to realize that ⁓ didn't seem, it seemed like a preference for him. It seemed like he just took two bottles and he didn't, and my son's never been real like snuggly. I'll catch him at a good moment here and there and get some good hugs out of him and cuddles. yeah, he, you my daughter's always been like so physically attached and she, like my stomach is like her lovey. puts her hand on my on my ⁓ and that's just like it is but it's also like ⁓ like my abs separated it's uncomfortable. That is the most real comment ever. Yeah, diastasis recti. I had no idea that was a thing and yeah, it's if someone presses on your belly button, it's it's doesn't feel good. But anyways, so I kind of just eased up on like the trying to push it with the breastfeeding and we fell into a rhythm. It was ⁓ difficult to ⁓ and ⁓ like the breastfeeding with the pumping ⁓ know, I would always be worried about like, okay, how long can my daughter breastfeed before I need to stop her from breastfeeding ⁓ or make sure that I had still more left to pump. because I would breastfeed her and then I would pump. I don't even remember, fortunately, ⁓ all the details of I navigated that. But I remember it being just like this mental strain of like, sure, because I never, ⁓ my supply was just enough. We did some formula here and there to supplement. ⁓ I bought like three cans of formula throughout the whole. two and a half years. Oh, wow. That's so minimal though. Yeah. and, but it was always just enough. And so it was always just kind of like, Oh, like, we going to have enough, breast milk? Cause I, I, that was so important to me to, to be able to breastfeed as long as it worked out. but the first 18 months, I, I got up and pumped in the middle of the night. for a year and a half. And I was also nursing in the night and bottle feeding in the night, which fortunately my husband at the time was able to help with feeding our son. But ⁓ supply was just higher in the nighttime after some rest. So I really felt like I couldn't give up that middle of the night pump for a while. I really kind of stubborn about it. But that's impressive that you did it. for so long because I pumped for seven months and I stopped doing a middle of the night pump at three months and I noticed a huge drop in supply. Like I think I would pump at like right before I went to bed, like 10 p.m., 11 p.m., whatever. So like still late. And then I wouldn't wake up at two or three in the morning and I would skip it and then pump again at six or seven a.m. I noticed the biggest shift. And that's when we had to start supplementing with formula because I was not producing enough anymore to provide for two. Yeah. So I know it's so hard to continue waking up and doing that in the middle of the night. ⁓ yeah. That's I mean, it's great that you did because that's how you kept your supply up. ⁓ You know? Yeah. It's a long time. is. Yeah. It's a it's a crazy I mean, it's that time I just feel like I was I was on a whole other like in whole other world on a different wavelength. And I remember someone saying me, like, you will sleep again. And I was like, really? ⁓ that's such a relief. ⁓ appreciated hearing that because it's in that time. I'm like, what is this existence? ⁓ is, you know, you're so depleted. know, leading into also we didn't end up we didn't sleep train. We co-slept we bedshared ⁓ so you know ⁓ my idea of how I wanted to parent you know very kind of like ⁓ natural ⁓ you let's go back a few hundred years ⁓ it was such a high cost and and I you know that my kids didn't sleep through the night until they're teeth had all come in. like two and a half years. And ⁓ remember just like being on right in the on the verge of like, I, I know why people sleep train and I feel like maybe I should have been doing that. Like what I'm putting myself through such ⁓ I experienced postpartum rage, which I never really had much sense of but in that time that those moments that it was always when I was trying to put them to sleep. And I realized like, ⁓ I'm like, filled with rage because like, my cup is totally empty and I, I need to take a little bit better care of my own needs. And so I had to learn over time to be more and more protective because I didn't not like how I felt when I was just in this. I remember my first Mother's Day. So they're born in January, a few months later in I felt so guilty that all I wanted was for my kids to just sleep. ⁓ kind of mother am I? Information is really hard, though. this is making me this whole conversation is making me think about nurturing twins. ⁓ you follow Elena? Or are you familiar with her work? ⁓ no, I haven't heard of. So she has like a village and it's all like co sleeping, trying to provide breast milk, like it's all that very, more natural approach. And she's so good. She's so good. And it was so funny in our conversation, postpartum rage got brought up. Yeah, because that's something that I suffered with with my boys that I was not expecting. I didn't have postpartum depression. I had that with my daughter. And then I think it was really like the sleep deprivation where this like, anger came out. And I was like, it was very shocking to me because I don't it was like, where is this? Where is this coming from? So I also experienced that. And it was awful because I had this like extreme guilt. of like these rage moments. And luckily, like, you know, I've learned to repair and have healed from that. But I had this period in motherhood where I was like, what am I doing? Yeah, like this isn't the kind of mom that I want to be. And it was almost felt like I couldn't control it. Yeah. And we I've gotten to a different place now. But I just completely understand. And it's like a different level of guilt. You know? Yeah. Yeah, I went into motherhood thinking I'm never gonna yell at my kids. And of course, if you're calm and thinking like, what would be ideal? You're like, ⁓ yeah, I'm not gonna yell at my kids. But you get put in that situation where I remember I would go, I think like in the middle of the night a few times, I like went and sat in the car in the garage. And I just like made these like guttural like rage sounds in my throat hurt afterwards. But I was just like. ⁓ wow. Yeah, there was a lot of that like physically get that out. Yeah, where it's not like directed at yelling at my kids. Sure. Sure. Like low frustration tolerance is also part of the ADHD experience. And that was helpful for me to realize like, okay, like, I just need to be more proactive about making sure my needs are taken care of. And you know, I would I learned like, It's hard for me to know where my limit is sometimes where unfortunately I got into a habit of keeping things like right up against my limit where I would give everything to my kids and just like leave the bare minimum for myself. And, and then, you know, I would like say something calmly and kindly to them like two, three times and then they would not listen. And I would like yell and unleash like this, like, ⁓ and was like, ⁓ I didn't even know that was like right under the surface. Right. So yeah, had to learn to be more mindful of like, okay, got to take care of myself before I feel like I'm like at my breaking point. I just feel you so deeply on that. I've had a couple moms on the podcast where they have started out motherhood with the self care routine. And I'm so impressed because it took me years to get there. really took me until maybe when the boys were like six months old where I was like, something's got to give. Yeah, like I need to have planned self care outings or activities where I'm like doing weekly yoga, I have you know, x y and z, whatever it might be pre planned and integrated into my day week month, right? Because I am waiting until the point of burnout. And then I'm literally losing my mind like this can't this motherhood is not sustainable like that. Right. But I had a very similar. Yeah, very similar situation. Yeah. And you know, it's it's a marathon like you really and I think that, fortunately, I mean, you know, having my currently like well slept mind, can, I can look at it rationally and realize like, of course, it doesn't it's not reassuring when you're in that space of like, it is so hard. But realizing that we can be adaptable, we can learn through the experience. Just thinking of how uncomfortable it is to transition from being in utero to being in the earthly world. And it's also a similar experience for ⁓ new parents, I think, where it's this whole unfamiliar territory. And you have to adjust. And it takes time. just giving yourself grace, giving yourself time to you know, you'll get there. It's a matter you know, slow change over time ⁓ ⁓ know, ⁓ gets ⁓ It's ⁓ a strange experience. It's such an overwhelming experience of like twin pregnancy is really intense. And then you go right into twin infancy and that's really intense. And then twin toddlerhood, it's like one thing after the other and you don't have time to regroup. You know, you don't have any time to like assess and I remember being in it and realizing like, ⁓ like this is not really working very well. Like I didn't know that I wasn't gonna be able to do this the way that I wanted to. But it's such a period of growth and you know, it's like that discomfort ⁓ sometimes necessary to push yourself through the growth and just I think having compassion towards yourself is such an important thing to. ⁓ into like, integrate or to build over time and realizing that it's like, it's not that you're deficient, it's that this is hard, you know, it feels hard because it is hard. ⁓ just feeling like you can figure it out as you go. Yeah, yeah. That was all really good. Like, it's just so true. ⁓ Like have to, I have learned so much about myself through motherhood. Yes, I think that's been ⁓ Yeah, when I was having the moment of rage and who am I, I really had to like look inward to be like, let's figure out how to fix this and grow. And it was like a big period of growing. And I like how you said, like, yes, this is your infant's first time in the world. And like, this is our first time experiencing motherhood. Right. And even though I had experienced motherhood with one, well, this is my first time experiencing it with three. Yeah. And that ⁓ that did change how I was able to manage things. so that was really good. Yeah, thank you. mean, it's a roller coaster and it can feel so overwhelming and daunting when you're in it. I feel like I'm still processing, I think listening to your podcast at this stage has been helpful because I have a more... clear mind, you know, and kind of continue to heal a therapist, I've alway growth and reflection. the more parents are to grow, the better off th for and, um, father's mother would say kids drag you kicking and screaming to change, you know, or they just they make you they they illuminate aspects of yourself that may need some attention and the more you're able to that and to, ⁓ know, delve into it and give yourself time to grow and heal and reflect. ⁓ I think the better off the whole family system is. ⁓ And it's not an easy process, but ⁓ it was so helpful for me to realize that there's right way to, no one right way to be a parent, to be a mom. I, you know, in many ways I can reflect positively on the standards and what I was able to accomplish, the standards I had, but I also could see them as like holding me back, you know, because I was trying to be a perfectionist, I was trying to, you know, feel like I had little room for adjusting ⁓ to, hey, the circumstances really aren't conducive for this being sustainable. And, but you know, it's all part of the growth and learning experience. And like you said, having those, those repair moments and helping kids realize like, you know, mommy's still learning too. And I'm going to keep working on it. And, know, it's, It's process. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the biggest thing. like you said, when you notice that something you're doing is not how you wanted your motherhood journey to look like, then to be able to look inward and learn from that grow from that and pivot. And sometimes that takes like what I feel like with some things with the having my twins, I was so easy to pivot. Yeah. And then other things were harder and unexpected. Like I did not experience postpartum rage with my daughter. Like I said, I had postpartum depression, which was a different story of its own. the rage was like so unexpected and came with another level of guilt that I really hadn't experienced in motherhood yet. So like going through that and coming out on the other side. I'm not perfect, but it's a huge improvement from what it was. I'm thankful all of that happened because I am a stronger, better mom for it. I definitely learned a lot about myself. I'm like, oh my gosh, how can I help three little people regulate themselves if I don't know how to do that? Right. So I feel like I really learned a lot of like self regulation tools where it's so cute. The kids now are like, should we all take a deep breath together? like, absolutely. And then we should go outside and touch our feet in the grass. And what does that feel like? And what do you smell? And what do you hear? And all of these like, techniques have helped me and my kid. So yeah, we were watching a movie, I think it was ⁓ one of the Despicable Me movies and daughter just commented like, he's being really mean because he's like, I forget what it was if he was like, you know, he was upset about something, right? You know, and she's like, I was like, ⁓ like, that's so cool that you can see that, right? This behavior is happening because there's underlying things like contributing to. Yeah, just not having the healthiest behaviors, being able to really. Yeah, dive in. I feel like being a twin parent is like, I feel like being a twin parent is like, the boot camp of parenting. you know, I feel like I'm through like the more intense stages earlier on and I feel like I can do anything now, you know, I survived that twin infancy experience the boot camp of parenting. you know, I came out on the other, I mean, you know, we're still early in the process, like they're gonna be 10, 15, 20. But, you know, I feel like I'm through like the more intense stages earlier on and able to be like, I feel like I can do anything now, you know, I survived that twin infancy experience and So I feel like I'm definitely stronger for it. But yeah, felt like it almost broke me. So I feel like I'm definitely stronger for it. But yeah, felt like it almost broke me. There's a video I posted a while ago. And it's like when you're having a hard time and then you that you birthed and are taking care of two babies. ⁓ It's like that makes you feel like, ⁓ I can ⁓ take anything on. You feel really strong. that's like when you finally see that. Because I don't think can see when you're And I agree that the newborn phase with our twins was absolutely the hardest like transitioning to be a mom of three and the sleep deprivation. Yeah. And now my toddlers are my twins are toddlers. And that's challenging in its own ways. But like I've slept, and I can handle things better that I've slept like a solid night. So yeah, I feel like when you can see that and you're like, I'm pretty strong. Yeah, that's Like a little, little pat on the back. ⁓ Absolutely. Yeah. It's, I mean, it's such a journey. of the things I was trying to think of all the things I wanted to kind of bring up today, cause there's just so much in the twin parenting experience. and one of the things that we haven't, touched on is, some of the differences ⁓ in having versus identical twins ⁓ and I've never had identical twins, so I don't really know what that is like. can't, gosh, there's so many aspects of it that seems so fascinating and neat to get to experience. But one of the, one thing that I learned is that navigating sleep with fraternal twins versus identical twins is so different because with fraternal twins, are, ⁓ totally uniquely wired individuals ⁓ don't have the same biological clocks. And so I've heard that it can be more difficult to ⁓ navigate sleep fraternal twins. And when I heard that, felt kind of like just like extra validation about, yeah, this is really hard. And I'm sure it's so hard with identical twins also. But some of the things with them being kind of like in the same rhythm, I don't know. ⁓ And I was blown away by how different my kids are from each other. I never pushed gender on my kids, but my daughter loved pink and dresses and my son was more into like vehicles and bad guys. And it's like, ⁓ this is really interesting. they're just, they have their own ⁓ interests and ⁓ personalities. And it's been like so cool to see two distinct humans like alongside each other. But yeah, for you, it's identical twins. So you've gotten a whole other like bag of experiences with that. I think it's so great that like even from the get go, they had different preferences and you were able to you were able to to go with that and nurture both of those different preferences. Like I know that must have been so hard to do both you breastfed one and pumped with another. But you kept doing that because of their preferences. Yeah. And you could have been like, ⁓ well, I'm no longer going to breastfeed and I'll just exclusively pump. And you didn't because you knew that your daughter liked that how you're mentioning she liked the cuddles and yeah, she just seemed in it too. Yes. Yeah, but I think that's really great that you were able to to really like nurture those different preferences. Yeah. And you know, even with individual, even with identical twins, right, we try and we're we are trying really hard to notice those different personalities and make sure that we're not like lumping them into one which I think with identical can happen also from like outside, like perspectives of other people. Right. And so it's interesting, like they've been having a little bit more of like, a say and an opinion of what they want to wear. I would say like some of their outfits are matching just because that's what we've been gifted or I'm like this shirt's cute. I'll get two of it because it's easy. but we don't always match them and they have been having a preference of like, I want to wear this shirt and I want to wear this shirt and yeah, so fun to see. I love it to see those like different personalities really coming out. Yeah, and it's interesting about the sleep. They My boys slept through the night maybe like nine or 10 months. slept we did sleep training with my daughter out of desperation. Like I was so in the thick of it. So with them it was it was so different. They could not go several hours without eating her or pediatrician like they needed that you know extra calories and stuff. But my son Wyatt, ⁓ man, he loves to sleep. So we were able to kind of figure out like if Wayland would wake up a little earlier from a nap I would go in and sneak him out. Yeah, and we would have some time together while Wyatt kept sleeping, but it was minimal like 30 minutes off Yeah, so but it is interesting like we had that on it like a very smaller scale we tried to you know people said like get him on a schedule and and I do think they they learn to be on in a similar rhythm ⁓ Some of that was, think, our own, like pushing it from the outside, but it didn't come easily. You know, I was like, how do you get the schedule to work? know? So definitely some things just work smoothly. I mean, there's just so many things that can happen in parenting. many different, it's such a roll of the dice. You know, what your kid's personalities are going to be, how that interacts with your own personality. And so much of it's just like, got to figure it out as you go. Yes. Well, I think the nice thing about having twins, I know we talked about this earlier, like being a perfectionist is I feel like with my daughter, I was so type A crazy perfectionist, I had a rigid schedule, I would be like, it is 1202. And be freaking out that we are two minutes off schedule. And I feel like having twins, I just had to be like, I had to let it go. Yeah. So I really like that you said rhythm because I, I love like a flexible routine. Like we nap around this time. But if we're out at the park and nap or lunch gets pushed a little bit later, like I'm not going to have a panic attack about it. And that took me having twins to to like, get there because I was not that way with my daughter. So like, I don't know that was just like twins or being a parent the second time. But I feel like it really Yes, like we have a rhythm and it is way more flexible than it than I was with my daughter. Yeah. And I'm I'm thankful for that because I feel like it's allowed me to be like a little happier where with my daughter I wasn't I wasn't I wasn't enjoying like there were several times where I'm like this wasn't how motherhood was supposed to be like I had painted this picture perfect. ⁓ yeah. scene and that was not what was happening. Yeah. So like the the reality that I was given and then the fantasy that I had pictured, right? We're not lining up and that was really, really hard for me. Yeah, I can relate to that as well. And being a first time mom with twins, I feel like I had to I had to adjust and reorient so quickly, but like I wasn't ready. Like you can't do there are some things that just take time to integrate. And so I was just in this constant state of like internal conflict of like, I really wanted to do it like this, but I just can't. I'm like grieving that, but then also just adjusting ⁓ I went. And ⁓ yeah, such a difficult process, but ⁓ you find your way. ⁓ through it one way or another. And yeah, I feel like I'd be a totally different mom to a new baby or twins at this point if I kind of started fresh. But that's the way it goes. ⁓ You from your experiences. Sure. And that's just all perspective. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, is there anything that we missed or that we didn't cover? Yes, but nothing that I think we, know, I think I've brought up everything that I had kind of had in my mind to bring up for, you know, knowing that we can just scratch the surface ⁓ in one podcast episode. But I know you always ask, you know, what is what would you want to say to a twin mom? gosh, like there's so many things, but also it's like you you can't know what that's what someone needs to hear because we're all so unique and individual and just, you know, I think for me it was helpful when people assure me that like it gets better. ⁓ not you know, it feels hard because it is hard. ⁓ will sleep again. ⁓ know, it's it's such a rough time in the in the early, twin parenting experiences and ⁓ just to ⁓ compassion for yourself. have compassion for, ⁓ it was helpful for me to like, in the thick of motherhood and then like see other, I don't judge moms anymore. Like I used to judge moms before I was, ⁓ me too. Same. ⁓ yeah, just like ⁓ knowing that you're doing the best that you can and that's what you can do and you don't have to be perfect. And it's okay to not be doing it the way you wanted to or to feel like you're doing not the best job of it because it's not you know it's something that you can always shift with and ⁓ kind of learning to take care of yourself as figure out best way ⁓ you the best kind of carry your own kids need so I think that's so big like A big thing that I say now is like, this decision isn't permanent. Like if we make this decision right now and we decide in a month that that isn't working, like ⁓ that's okay. That doesn't necessary sometimes. Right. Like just because we made a decision based off of the information we had then doesn't mean we can change our minds later. And I think that was something that like took me a while to get like, well in my head, I've always wanted to do it this way. And then it's like, well, that way isn't working or even like the way that I parent my three kids differently. Like personalities need different things and I couldn't have understood that pre-kid. Yeah. You can only prepare so much for it and you you're just thrown into it and you got to do whatever you can do to get through. But yeah, doesn't mean you can't undo it too. Right. Absolutely. Well, I also love the like reassuring comment. like, yeah, it's going to get better. The season is hard, but you're going to get through it on the other side. yeah, I like hearing those things, especially from other twin moms. Yeah, you know, so I think I like joke, I selfishly started this podcast, ⁓ so that could talk to other twin moms and and learn from them and ⁓ all like together. ⁓ And yeah, think yeah, that's I love everything you said. I Yes. I'm not in this alone. ⁓ Yeah, my kid's dad would say, ⁓ you know, people do this every day. And I was like, that's not comforting for me because I feel like I'm losing my mind here, you know. ⁓ But to know that, yeah, that's not unusual to feel that way. Sure. it's, I really wanted to do like an interview style podcast and not necessarily like only have experts on which is great. Like I think the podcasts that do have that there's a need for that. Right. I'm like, I really just wanted to talk to twin moms, just raw. Yeah. And about their experiences in general, which is why I'm like, and we need to have follow up episodes with everybody. Because everything changes. And you know, yeah. So I'm like, I would love to do that too. We need to have a follow-up episode. Because there's so much more that we can, like we can only get into so much in an hour. like, I think we did a pretty good job talking about a little bit of everything. So. Yeah, I hope so. I hope it's helpful for other twin moms out there. Like I said, I would have loved to have a little bit more insight to other twin parents and their experiences. So yeah. Thanks for doing this. Yes, I so appreciate you coming out and I'm so glad we were able to do it in person. So fun. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. Yeah, thank you.