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Hospitality Technology is a Triple Platform | with Richard Valtr · GAIN Momentum

• ​GAIN Momentum episode #28 - Hospitality Technology is a Triple Platform | with Richard Valtr === Adam: Welcome to the Game Momentum podcast, focusing on timeless lessons from senior leaders in hospitality, travel, food service, and technology. I'm joined today by my co host, Vincent Somsen. Vincent, how are you? Vincent: Good to be here, Adam. Thanks for the invite again, and good to see you, Richard. Good to be introduced. Adam: And our special guest today is Richard Valtr, founder at Mews. Richard, how are you? Richard: I'm great. Yeah, very excited to be here Adam: Awesome. Great to have you. So our, our format today is we love to talk to senior leaders to learn what we can about the industry. And we frame that around four key questions that we ask all guests to frame everything as we go along. So we're gonna dive right in with our first question today, which is, Richard, when it comes to scaling a business, what is the [00:01:00] single piece of advice you would give entrepreneurs from your perspective? As a professional in hospitality technology, Richard: It's quite a broad question because I think that, you know, if I, if I look back at Mews, it's very different as a topic, you know, scaling it from zero to, you know, 10 employees or, or zero to a hundred first customers, you know, the, type of team that you need for, for those types of things, you know, for the knife fights, essentially that you, when you're going, you know, with your briefcase from door to door, that's a very. Different type of mentality, a different type of team. Then again, there's a different type of mentality when you're, you know, raising your first seed rounds and basically your first series A's and that kind of institutional money, if that's the track that you're on. and then it's very, very different when you're kind of doing series C and kind of more growth investing and you're getting ready to kind of look at IPOs and things like that. And so it feels like, you know, Um, there's different [00:02:00] epochs in the scaling journey, but I think that the main thing you have to, be ready for as an entrepreneur is just, you will fall flat on your face, uh, you just have to be really, really better than anyone else in your company at learning. and you have to have that kind of constant growth mindset to be, you know, two steps ahead of everything. I always say that, at this stage, the thing that I hate the most is surprise. and you know, it's, it's incumbent on me to never be surprised by any single thing that happens to us as a business and if, and I think if you can get that kind of mentality that never be surprised by any single thing that happens in your business, I think that's the type of, you know, growth mindset that you need to have and, and that kind of, that, you know, mindset of, actually being that, um, You know, that guardian of the future of the company, uh, that you have to think three months ahead and you have to really, really make sure that the company kind of is in a good place, uh, when that happens. Adam: so a bit of a, [00:03:00] teasing question here, but how much of that is actual surprise and how much of that is just you saving face and being that calm guardian of, uh, of protecting the company and keeping everyone just from going crazy as things, you know, hit the, hit the fan as they do, as they always will. Richard: Yeah, I mean, like there's, there's always, you know, the, the, the, duck or the swan, you know, gracefully on the surface and like underneath, you know, it's like the little legs paddling. Um, but I think that it definitely gets easier over time. Uh, and I think that we now live a world where founder journeys are well documented. you know, I started the company in 2012. It feels like now there's just so many more, you know, great podcasts. There's great, uh, resources, great meetups. know, it's become much more of a, uh, of a known resource that can now use. And I think that's a really, really important thing for a founder's journey. [00:04:00] So I would say that it is difficult, but it's really easy to learn now. And it's just about your propensity to be able to consume that much information and to be able to actually use it in a valuable way for your team, quickly enough. Adam: Well, there is the access to learning and to content, there's so much content, but being an entrepreneur, you know, if you look back at 2012, you probably had a few months where you were working literally 24 hours a day, even while you were sleeping, you were thinking about ideas. So as an entrepreneur, and knowing that that's what it takes, when do you find time to learn Richard: Uh, you just have to do it all the time. Like it's funny, like I was 29 at the time when I started the company and like that age, like you don't, it's always in the fullness of time, basically, that you realize like, oh, crap, like I'm running out of energy. But you just have to you. You just have to force yourself like [00:05:00] you are running on adrenaline all of the time. You have to be high energy. You have to be high energy for your team. You have to make sure that there's excitement, enthusiasm, passion you know, and that, that's why it's also difficult to find the thing that you want because there's so many great ideas, but only a few of them will actually make you passionate. And I always say to, you know, any other entrepreneur that, that asks me, especially if they're kind of earlier on in their, in their journey. You know, they say like, what's the most important thing? What kind of idea should I go for? It's like, only go for those ideas that you can feel passionate about because if you don't feel passionate about the, the idea, then you won't force yourself to learn. You won't force yourself to, to read because there'll be other things that you will want to do. And this is an all consuming marathon that you are in and you have to love it and you have to be passionate about it, uh, in order to be successful. And you know, and I, and I look at some of those Like it's in the same way. I hate that kind of like that grind mindset and people really talking about, you know, like, oh, yeah You gotta you gotta grind you got to do [00:06:00] all of these things and like I hate that like that That that type of you know it's the one person You know against everything like because you never build anything on your own. That's just a myth Like, it's always a team that delivers this and so, you know, you just have to be prepared that that you have to be the most prepared part of that team to be able to actually kind of, you know, get the willingness of others to actually follow you in that way. Adam: to be a real leader? Vincent: Yeah, and Richard, how do you inspire that core team, right at the beginning when you founded Mews? How did you inspire those people to go along with you in this, I guess, you know, back in that day, you know, quite a riskful journey and also to take on, you know, the, the journey on starting a PMS, you know it's definitely, um, I guess a sector within the hospitality industry and, you know, that is, Controlled by these giants, right? So how do you inspire people to follow you along in the idea, so to [00:07:00] say? Richard: Like, I'd say you can't be too smart. I feel like I'm blessed with the, um, with the fact that I'm a massive optimist and that also makes me Like, and I also don't think that I'm the stupidest person, but I do a lot of really, really stupid things. And then I feel really bad about them. And then I feel really bad about the way that people look at me. So you have to have that kind of, I think there is a founder's mindset that like, you have to have a weird overconfidence about how easy certain things can be and a weird. You know, under confidence or, know, you have to be constantly thinking about how the, the shame that you'll feel if you don't succeed. Um, and I think when I've met other founders, you know, I think that if anyone knew how hard it would be. And how [00:08:00] much you'd have to suck up just, you know, having blows to your ego all the time that you, that you didn't know, that you couldn't predict, that you, you know, when you told the team that, you know, within a year we'll have the best PMS on the planet, and here I am still, 11 years later, still trying to build it, basically, and it still feels like V1, you know, like, that, you That I think is, is the, you know, it's a, it's a difficult one, but I think it's that sense of optimism that you have to have, but you also have to suspend disbelief in yourself, but also in the team around you, because it is like the types of things that you're trying to do as an entrepreneur, they're not rational things. And so you just have to find that kind of belief that. That actually the thing that you're doing is worth doing is worth other people working on because you're going to take them out of their life journey. Uh, and you feel like, you know, if you're a feeling person, you will feel that that's a really, really [00:09:00] Horrible thing to ask someone, you know, give me two or three years of your life and some of the hardest working conditions and I will make that worthwhile for you. That's a really, really solemn promise that you're making to someone as a founder and you don't take that lightly. Vincent: Um, that makes sense. Was there ever a moment that you felt, okay, this burden is going to be too much, especially in the early years. Richard: like, partly because I'm not, you know, not the smartest, I guess. I Always thought that everything would be fine. I always just thought that like, you know, I, I did have a shining light. So even when things were tough, like, you know, I, for me, that's really the, like, pressure. is not really now. Like, now we're almost, you know, 960 people with Mews, a great amount of cash that we've, that, we've raised, you know, I, I work, or I'm lucky to work with some of the most talented people that I've ever even met, let alone, basically, worked alongside. and so, [00:10:00] that feels like, oh my god, it actually is a thing. Whereas, Before, it was much more about the fact of, you know, the real pressure is looking somebody in their eyes and saying, I just don't actually know if I can pay you next week, and, you know, I need you to believe me that I will get the money, and I will sign this deal, I will get this thing over the line, I will get this investor, and you just have to believe me. That's pressure. Vincent: And that relief is now, uh, I guess, uh, flowing away. Yeah. Richard: Yeah, I mean, like, it's funny because I always feel that there's a part of you, as an entrepreneur that loves that, that's kind of addicted to it. It's the ability to kind of, to, be relevant to your team to kind of to to feel that you are that captain charging into battle um and it does you know it does excite that like I do always think back to antiquity and you know it is you know of [00:11:00] being somebody in a strange land and you know just Going forward and doing those types of things and you know, it's probably very childish and it's very It's very, you know masculine in that kind of way You know or the kind of the typical way that these these things are but that that it's personally how I always thought about You know that those types of feelings and that's the kind of the long line that you're that you're aspiring to Vincent: Yeah. Well, there's no harm in that, right? Yeah. For sure. Got you where you are now. Richard: Yeah Adam: So, Richard, we're going to move into our second question here. What are some of the common pitfalls or failures you have witnessed that business owners, such as yourself, maybe, should look to avoid when scaling their business? Richard: I'd say relying on outside counsel too much and not going with your gut enough, and [00:12:00] that's a tough one because as I said, like you don't have the answers, especially at the beginning, and you have to be unsure of yourself because you have to stay sane, uh, and you have to understand the risks. But I think that the, um, the thing that I see people, doing a lot, and if I look at, some of the kind of, some of the people that, that started, In a similar kind of vein and maybe dropped off basically, I think that they just wouldn't lean into themselves enough. They kept on going to yet another meetup, or they thought that they had to go to this conference of other entrepreneurs and they had to go to this thing because they would find investors and, um, they had to, you know, um, go and do this other thing, or, you know, it was like they liked. Being an entrepreneur, but they didn't like working on their product and they didn't like actually kind of really thinking about, you know, the strategy of how am I going to get [00:13:00] from one to this, to this? And, and I think it is that second aspect of having that plan and, you know, just being able to actually kind of plan out those milestones, like we will get to 10 customers and holding yourself accountable to that and then basically saying, okay. 10 customers. Uh, this is how much they're going to pay us. This is the next plan. This is the next milestone. This is the, you know, and just being able to, chart it out that that's actually going to be your journey. I think that's really, really important to, to be able to follow. and I think a lot of the times people just want to be. Uh, they, they want to feel like an entrepreneur, they want that kind of lifestyle, they want the plaudits, they want to, you know, do the community work that they're doing on, on Twitter, they want to, you know, host the meetup where everyone can see basically that they're kind of doing the grind, very few of them are just, Really, really in their product and really, really thinking about, you know, how do I, how do I recruit the next, the next [00:14:00] person that I need, basically, and, and how do I think about my customer and how do I obsess about that customer, um, uh, enough? Adam: Well, I would say it's, it's a bit of a fine line, uh, in there because you mentioned going to social events and potentially there's investors there and, you know, within every founder's myth or story, there's always, you know, that one chance encounter that you had that then led to a deal and that propelled the company forward. And I'm wondering how, how does one navigate that fine line between just So, really just holing up and discerning that strategy, that plan, figuring out that one key feature that's going to get investors motivated, and actually doing the network and being that cheerleader for the company, so that way there is interest that will lead to that meeting, that will lead to that, uh, that term sheet, and so on. Richard: It's funny because you're kind of asking probably the wrong person for that because we tried to raise within the first, [00:15:00] like, you know, like, first of all, like, I was trying, I had three unsuccessful attempts at starting the first team, and then I ended up finding two Essentially kids, that were still in school, who were the first two programmers that I hired. one of them, you know, up until last year was still our CTO. So, you know, I, I had the luck of the draw in finding two of the, the best people that I could have found, but they were, I was 29, they were 23, uh, or 22. It just, it's complete luck. Um, so, that, I think, is the first thing, basically, that you, that is, you know, it's It's difficult. And then, you know, we tried to raise, I was in Czech Republic, basically, there weren't really proper investors, so we really just had to grind it out for four years. you know, not being able to actually kind of tell a compelling story because, you know, as you said, when we were going to investors, they were like, wait, you're trying to compete with Oracle? like, you're just some [00:16:00] nobody from Czech Republic that's like, you know, that has sold like. You know, 10 PMSs basically, uh, on a system that doesn't even work. And we're supposed to fund you so you can go and take on Oracle in America. Like, that's a joke. You know, like that's never going to actually kind of work. So, you know, the first three years. The way that we would actually get money into the business is that we figured out a way that, you know, every single customer that we were able to kind of, to charm, we would then figure out, like, you know, these are the, the next 20 features that we want to build. If you want any of those features to be higher, You're going to have to pay us basically and it was I think like 3k every every single step So it was just a way that we found that like we would still be working towards our roadmap We weren't doing like custom work or anything like that. But you were just we were getting paid for The priority of those features, which in the end, we didn't really care about the priority. We just knew that we had to build all of those things to have a semi [00:17:00] functional PMS, in the first place. So that's how it worked. And then once we got to a place of kind of product market fit, we, we found a Dutch investor that gave us a million, um, before that I was lucky enough to have a friend of mine who had just IPO'd this company. And so he gave us like 150K Uh, but we survived those like, you know, those first four years off just that amount of money. and it was very, very. to your point, I didn't go to the right events and I didn't get that term sheet from the right investor. but that was my journey and, um, or that was kind of our journey. And then, you know, we, we just, you know, I, you know, from then on, I've now, you know, I have the badge of being able to say that I've been rejected by every single VC. In Europe and in America, at least once, and I think that, like, it's still crushing, and I still, like, have the scars, [00:18:00] scars and it fuels me from that perspective to know, you know, the names of every single person that told us that, this will never be a 5 million company, this will never be a 50 million company, this will never be a 100 million company, this will never be, it's, like, You get that, and I still get it, basically, like, you know, it's like, everyone's like, well, I'm just not sure if you guys are going to IPO, And I'm like, okay, we'll show you, like, yeah, 10 billion? Fine, you'll see. Adam: picking out one other thread here, you talk about taking on Oracle in America, and you've been featured in articles talking about this sort of next phase of technology, which is all about founder led expansions, and so right now you're in New York. Even though I think your main development and your head office is back over in Europe. I'm wondering if you could talk about, how Mews and how you specifically are helping to do, to execute a founder led expansion [00:19:00] in such a huge country like America and really how that signals a profound shift in technology going forward. Richard: I think it's difficult because it's, what you find is, it's the same thing when you're trying to do, you know, international expansion once you've become, good in America. The good thing about America and the luck that you have in America is that it's also the types of questions that you get here. You know, you can start in Ohio, and nobody really wants you to be a dominant Ohio company. Um, whereas, you know, like that's where it's actually nice being from a place like Czech Republic where You know, even though I have this very English accent, but you know, maybe that that's part of the point about, you know, being a kind of expansory, person, but you know, you come from a place where there is no market, you know, it's like the population is so small that you have to go outside. Whereas, you know, what I see with European founders is that they create a great product in [00:20:00] Germany or in France and then It's really difficult to get out of out of France or Germany, you know But they can have a fantastic business But in America basically like nobody cares about you having a really nice business in Texas or at least in tech You know or in Ohio or in any of these kind of you don't get those types of questions of like, you know How long will it be before you dominate this particular market? It's nice, but you know you have the possibility of actually kind of fast expansion really, really quickly. You don't have the problems of, of, uh, language and, and things like that unless you get to, you know, unless you wanna go down to Mexico or you want to go up to, uh, Quebec. But it's, it's generally a single market. The buyer is pretty much the same. All of these different things are, you know, a, a very. Very easy from, that perspective. And it's, and it tends to actually kind of be able to scale. So you can have that scaling mindset and have the right to be able to scale very, very quickly. So I think that's, the first thing. I think the second though, [00:21:00] is that, you know, it's a very different strategy. So the way that we have as our strategy now in the U S it's a completely different one. So, you know, whereas in Europe now, you know, We have, for example, 30% or, or, uh, you know, just over 35% of all hotel rooms in Scandinavia are news rooms. Uh, we have 25% of the, the whole of the Benelux market. Uh, one in 10 rooms in Paris is a news hotel or news newsroom. All of these different things, basically kind of, you know, we have a, a level of local dominance. Whereas when we came out to the US we kind of thought like, well, it's fine. We'll just, you know. We just transplant the way that we've been able to kind of grow in all these different, uh, different areas, different, different markets, and we'll do the same. And it was just, you know, big, big punch in the face because it just doesn't work like that. And the U S is its own entity in the way that we kind of. Grow here is, is a little bit more kind of back to the basics, you [00:22:00] know, you go a little bit more, you know, more S& B again, more independent. I think our strategy is a little bit more local in that kind of way and really looking at, you know, how do we. How do we think about, you know, how, how can hoteliers, because it's such an incestuous relationship that they have to, to their technology and it tends to be quite local, how can they all talk about us in a superlative way? Um, so you go very much, you know, from the US down to a very, very micro level. And again, that's very different to the way that we would think about these things, uh, in Europe and the way that you also kind of then activate partnerships, the way that you then activate, you know, various different, levers. To grow in different channels as well. So again, completely, completely different. Adam: aside from the U. S. and the E. U., Or Europe. Could you remark on any differences that for other major territories such as in Asia or Latin America, Africa? Your [00:23:00] choice. Richard: So we're live in 85 different countries and one thing that you find is that actually at the beginning it's kind of good to be scattergun because you kind of want the customers from anywhere unless they, um, you know, unless it's too difficult from a compliance perspective and, and, uh, from a localization perspective. But what you find is actually the more. The bigger you are, the more you have to be able to focus, Like right now, we have a plan that for the next three years, we're going to be growing at around 70%. And that, at our scale, when we're, you know, north of 200 million, basically, in ARR, that becomes really difficult to try and execute. and so you have to be super focused, basically, about that, and you have to really, really think about which territory, why. And why is it going to be predictable? And you have to extrapolate that basically into the next couple of years and those types of questions become super difficult basically at that kind of scale. and again, it's [00:24:00] totally different than, um, You know, when we were maybe 200 people, um, and, you know, at a much lower rate of, uh, uh, of ARR. And, you know, there it's a little bit more, you're trying to, for example, get the right customers that can then basically be a halo. to the next customer set that you want to buy. Um, and so it's very much, you, you have to always think about the tactics that get you to the level of growth that you need to actually kind of have. Vincent: Yeah, the more that you grow, Richard, you know, in the, in the, in the early, early years of M you grew a lot in a very fast time and you really try to listen to the Hoteliers, which I'm sure you do right now. But I think, um, would you argue that it's in a much different speed than it was in the beginning of Mews, um, that you add features and also the relationship with the Hoteliers? Do you think? In particular, that relationship, do you think that changed in some sense, [00:25:00] uh, because you're much larger now and you're, what you're saying, you're now in 85, uh, countries in the world? Richard: so I, I actually think that it's, um, it's just different. Like, it's basically like you, you kind of, and it's also different in terms of, you know, how you actually are with your own, with your own team and, with your own customers as well, basically. What you tend to actually have, like I always talk about it as, you know, in terms of the leadership that you provide and the types of team members that you actually have. You need to think in terms of idioms, you know, you need to think in terms of how can I as a leader be somebody that when I'm not in the room, I'm still represented in that person's brain. And you have to Create that idiom out of yourself. Like what are the characteristics? What are those, you know, the, the, what would Richard say moments that somebody actually has, that then you want that person to, you know, repeat as a mantra. And it's also then basically about having that, that kind of team. [00:26:00] And the leadership team that then Combines to actually have those types of, those moments. That's really, really important. That's incredibly important to build. And it's incredibly important to be very considered about what you're doing from, from that perspective. So that's incredibly important to actually try and build basically from that place. Uh, I think that the, the same thing then happens also with the customers, you have to find the right archetypes that represent specific, customer types that are going to be the ones that you can replicate. So, you know, if, for example, it's this specific beachside hotel, you know, what is, you know, it's then, for example, like utilizing data, huge reams of data, basically, like what are the attributes of this type of customer that this is, You know, somebody that we have all of these features that we know are going to drive these types of outcomes And when you can pinpoint all of those basically, how do I then replicate that, you know, a hundred times? How do I know that there is a market and it can [00:27:00] be you know And that's the thing like when you have a wide enough territory Because you've you've done that in the first time when you were just kind of expanding to to be able to be relevant in all of these different places How do you know that, for example, that the types of hotels that you're going to be selling at the French Riviera? That's going to be a set of features that can be replicated in you know, Newport, Rhode Island. And you need to be able to actually kind of match that that type of thing and then be able to really really focus, listen to those customers and be able to really kind of zero in on the fact that that's going to be the strategy because there is enough of that type of hotelier, that type of market. and then you do that for individual hotels and individual properties, and then you do the same thing also when you're, when you're then considering, you know, groups of properties where it's very difficult to do that as a kind of product, um, product led company. but it's very, very important to basically kind of do that because otherwise you're going to be, you know, you're not going to be able to grow [00:28:00] quickly because you're just going to be kind of, You know, it's just going to be a kind of similar process that you're running every single time with every single new customer. Vincent: yeah. And from a practical perspective, how would you advise other founders to do that? do you advise them? Okay, we, we did, we did that with interviews, or you really sit down with them a couple of days or, or trial, trial and error, um, focus groups. Richard: I think it's like, it's a lot of different things. The way that you actually end up doing it is like you can, you can set up basically like, you know, customer advisory boards, you know, you can have your CS teams doing those types of things. The best way to do it is to make sure that your product and tech teams are doing that. You know, like, you can do all of these things. I think that, like, generally the model was before that you have specialist customer teams that do this kind of work for you. The model now is that you basically make sure that enough of your organization really, really thinks in this customer first way. And they're [00:29:00] the ones that, you know, a product manager should know more about your customer than any customer manager or any support agent that you have. They should be the experts basically when it comes to that, that specific customer archetype. Because they know who they're building for and they again have that idiom of the customer in their head. So when they're in doubt, they know exactly what this customer basically needs to solve that particular issue. Adam: So that's a great segue, Richard, into our third question talking about, you know, customer focused teams and what you're thinking about for the product. And the third question, of course, is what do you see as the key opportunities and challenges for hospitality technology companies in 2024 and beyond? Richard: I think the what's difficult about um, hospitality technology is that you're dealing with a very human industry that's dealing with Customers that are, that behave like individual humans. and what I mean by that is, you know, when you speak to other companies in [00:30:00] other spaces, when your product is something that's consumed through a screen, you can get very formulaic about it, but here it's different. You're, you're creating a technology that then gets picked up by somebody who's then having a face to face contact. So in a way, the product that you're producing, you're not in 100 percent control of, of how it gets kind of used. So you're, you're essentially, you know, it's like, it's a triple platform to a certain extent. You're kind of providing the technological platform to be able to, you know, then deliver the product that people basically kind of see on their screens. That then is the basis of a platform that then. People have when they look away from the screen and, you know, you're trying to create a fast paced memory or a kind of prompt for that person when they're dealing with the guest. [00:31:00] And, uh, you know, it's the same thing that then when you think about like, you know, financial reporting and all of these different things, the way that we've done it is that we have a concept called, um, user disengagement, which is that we've figured out that, that in hospitality, You're not trying to look at a screen. So, you know, whereas the likes of a TikTok or a Facebook or an Instagram, they want you glued to the screen as much as possible. And that's how they measure their success is how much time you've given to their particular program or their particular website. On a screen for us, the less time that somebody, we kind of take the point of view that somebody needs to use a PMS, or somebody needs to use this kind of like operating operating system for the hotel. They need to use it. So actually we're going to measure how much they don't interact with the screen because if they interact with the screen then that means that basically they're not providing the right platform for that guest experience or they're not basically getting a the [00:32:00] right kind of insight to manage their property or to manage their profit levels because if they're You know, head, you know, if they're looking at the report or if they're looking at that, you know, that pie chart and they're not getting the result basically or their insight straight away, then they're working too hard and that's us not doing our job properly, uh, because it should be much, much easier for that person to actually kind of continually doing that job, whether they're, you know, front office or whether they're sitting basically in a head office. Vincent: So the less they use your product, the better you think your product Richard: Yeah. that's that's basically that that's the way that we measure the success of our product is the least amount of time and for every single role We then create, you know, the idea of you know These kinds of golden tasks and we try and basically kind of think about you know How does that actually kind of then work in terms of? The actual product itself. So for example for us what's important is to not call something a check in experience [00:33:00] Because it's not a check in. It's a welcoming experience Um, in the same way that it's, it's not check out, it's goodbye. And it's a tiny thing, but that's the process that you're, you know, you and your program are only a part of that. You're maybe 40 percent of it, and you're the thing that does the authentication, you know, so, you know, show me your, passport, you know, give me your credit card. Those are authentication moments. You know, then giving the key, you know, that those are essentially the kind of the, the validation moments, the enabling moments. but that is all a part of one process, which is called a welcome. and so that's the process that we should be trying to kind of product manage, um, not a check in. Adam: I'm just wondering, just for listeners or viewers here, if you could colour that idea of user disengagement With some specific features that you've put into Mews to really help with that, whether that's dashboard configuration, colouring, anything like that. Richard: It's exactly that. You get [00:34:00] into like, you know, uh, like I'm a great fan of neurology and like a different way, but you know, all of these things like color theory and the way that you, you know, we, we, for example, have a very sparse use of colors in the system because for us, you know, if you have a color, everything should be black and white. And if you have a color, basically, it should denote something. It should denote an action. So, for example, the way that we have our dashboard, it's black and white, because that denotes that everything's normal. and so, then you kind of, you see, for example, the donuts, which show you You know, the, how many people are still left to kind of check in and how many people are still checking out basically for, for example, a receptionist, um, you can see, you know, the status of a certain room service order. Uh, you can see, for example, a message that hasn't been, responded to. You can see a credit card, that doesn't have enough balance or something like that. Those are all things that, that essentially require your attention. And that's where you bring. You use colors, uh, to make sure [00:35:00] that when somebody does that thing that you actually want, which is, you know, in, in this case, you want the, the moment of time that somebody spends with the system to be almost like, like that. And so I have to get a huge amount of information. In that half a second of turning my head, and so what are the right colors that I can see? So, for example, red, orange, those are all colors that, you know, that, from a spectrum perspective, basically, are very loud. So, I'm going to react to those, basically. There are other colors, um, You know, especially the, the kind of, the, the darker, uh, colors are more soothing, that, you know, that just, you know, denote something. So for example, gray colors in our system are future actions. You know, they're, they're things that, that don't require your attention. They're things that should fade into the background basically. so those are the types of things that we try and design for. And we try and try and think about, you know, how to actually kind of do it. But you can, you can have that across [00:36:00] all different, um. All different aspects of the system itself, you know, in the way that we think about, you know, every single screen is a task in itself. And so, if you are changing screens, basically, then it has to be that there is a clear separation between the tasks that you're actually doing. So, I'm doing one task that is now finished. I'm now doing a second task, and I don't have to switch back and forth, basically. I don't have to context switch in order to actually kind of have that journey of finishing a task. And, and you think about that basically on the kind of, on the delivery side. You also think about that basically on the customer journey side, uh, as well. So every single one of these actions should somehow be mirrored. Um, and we think about that fairly deeply as well. Adam: Yeah, it's an interesting term, context switching. I've, I've used a similar one, which is dashboard fatigue, which is basically you're just looking all over the place. And with this metric, user disengagement, [00:37:00] Can you also tie that metric into other metrics that perhaps hotel owners care about, like increases in revenue, customer satisfaction, and so on? Richard: Well, so like this, because this is where it ties into because you're, you're essentially saying, okay, what is that person doing? And I think this is why, you know, we think automation is the highest form of hospitality because right now you're employing somebody to kind of do, uh, essentially clerical work, things that should be automated. if you're doing the authentication, like here is the passport, here is the credit card. That is something that is much better, you know, to either have as a process somewhere outside, or it's something that you just need to tap, yeah? And the amount of data, like the, the recognition of that person, the authentication that that is a real card, all of those things, basically, like that. That is not a human job. You're just using a human because it [00:38:00] just so happens to be a very, very good, you know, all purpose computer, yeah, for those types of things. But, the things that that human should be doing are the things that humans excel at. So Being empathetic, understanding that you're tired, you know, being able to kind of, pattern match the fact that, you know, you have a certain expression. So therefore I'm going to actually give you a service or, you know, upsell you to this other thing. So for me, anyone who works at the front office should be a salesperson. Anyone who's in the back office of a hotel, if they are not delivering something for the guest, if they are not somehow actually thinking about a strategy for how guest experience can be made better, for how, you know, the, uh, different cohorts of the next person that's going to walk through the door, uh, or the person that's, you know, lying upstairs basically in the room, how you can make more money out of that, then they should not be working at the hotel. every single person who is [00:39:00] employed by a hotel should be adding Guest satisfaction should be adding a feeling of, you know, positive reinforcement from that kind of brand side, or should be upselling. and that's why sales is, is, you know, it is that, that thing that humans really excel at because we can persuade, we can use those kinds of, you know, micro signals to figure out how to actually kind of coerce someone or push someone basically in a way. and what's nice about hospitality is that, you know, the ultimate. AIM that you have is this very, very nice positive sum experience. It's not a zero. Nobody wins in a hospitality when you kind of just, you know, do something bad for the customer, because it's that feeling that you're trying to kind of create. And if they have a positive feeling of hospitality or of having experienced hospitality, then they're going to tell their friends about it, they're going to come back, uh, they're going to kind of leave you a nice review, they're going to do all of those positive things that drive positive [00:40:00] reinforcement for you to actually get more money. And so, you know, that, that's essentially how we think about, you know, what it is that we're building for. And we, we talk about this as, you know, what are the moments, what are the things where we can inject hospitality into a situation? And it's that injection of hospitality that should be the aim. Everything else, if we haven't automated it, we've failed. Adam: know, that's such a profound lesson, and you can almost repeat it for our fourth and final question, which is, Richard, what are the key things innovative leaders and entrepreneurs should prioritize and focus on to gain traction for their business? Richard: I think you need to be able to very clearly articulate what the world looks like with your product in it. And why your team is the right team to deliver that. Um, and I think if you haven't answered that for yourself, it's going to be very hard for you to, [00:41:00] to, explain that to your customers. And usually at this point in the journey, like everything's been invented. there is no new technology under the sun. You know, it's just, you know, like, every single thing that gets created, is a version of something else that had existed. I always love using this example within hospitality where, you know, basically all of the major tech firms that exist now are just ripping off hotels. Yeah, because where did the first Uber, you know, originate? Well, that was the bellboy who went and got you the cab. Yeah, now you've got an app for that, but before your app was that person in the cap. You know, that's Uber. Yeah, what's DoorDash? Well, it's the room service. Um, you know, like all of these things basically started out as innovations that we created, you know, it's like, where did the customer is always right originate from? Well, it was the guest that was always right. You know, that's like, those are all [00:42:00] things. We are the most innovative human company or, you know, companies basically like the industry because we look after the service to humans. And so, from that perspective, I think that, you know, it's an incredibly fun thing to think about, you know, you start thinking about, you know, all these different things of, you know, what does a creator industry, uh, look like for experiences, you know, how can you have, uh, you know, the best paid people in the world actually doing hospitality, performing hospitality, because everything else, you know, is, is going to, So, I think, um, You know, it's deflationary by its own design. You know, if you think about cleaning, it's like, nobody wants to do that. Yeah. Like, okay, maybe you get some kind of, some personal. Um, you know, like, thing that you like about it, but, you know, do you really think that in 20 years we're going to be doing our own cleaning or is that going to be a robot that do, that does that for us? And from a mass market [00:43:00] perspective, would it not just be, you might have cleaning experiences that people enjoy, yeah, but you're probably not going to actually kind of do the cleaning every single day, but you are going to have people that help you. Find new experiences that help you explore different worlds, um, expand your mind in certain ways, learn certain skills, basically. Those are all going to be things that you will still want to do with people. And that's going to be the heart of hospitality forever. And I think, I think it's those types of things that, you know, hospitality, technologists. You have to really, really, you know, understand that what they're building towards is, you know, the human condition, and you have to kind of bring it back to that. And I think you always have to kind of focus in on, on the fact that that's the innovation that you're trying to actually kind of do. And you have to then be able to articulate what that world actually kind of looks like. Adam: Wow, I mean, that's a fantastic place to finish off, Richard, with that [00:44:00] lesson, because you think about Everything that hotels are doing for the world on an innovation front and when you frame it like that and how your technology company fits into that, it really helps give you that guiding mission to then go back to where you were in 2012, which is coming up with that plan and being that, that grinding entrepreneur and seeing the light of day now in 2024. So it's such a profound lesson and you know, I, I, dare I say they were saying the same thing a hundred years ago. So. Thank you, Richard: And like that, but that, but that's what's so exciting about working in hospitality is like this industry will never die. You know, we can bitch and moan about it basically like all the time, but we are always going to be a, be around, yeah? Like you can't say that about almost every other industry, but we will always be there. We have been there since the dawn of time, and we will always be there unless, you know, as long as there are humans, [00:45:00] there is always going to be hospitality. Adam: yeah, I mean, some aspects of it will be deflated or democratized or commoditized, whichever you want to say, but the hospitality, the difference there, I guess, is talking about hospitality versus lodging, two different things, and the hospitality Richard: Yeah, the only thing that I'd say is basically like, it's still, it's all part of that 24 hour experience, you know, and this is why I fight against, you know, hotels just thinking of themselves as the bedroom, because you are not just those eight hours out of the 24, you are that 24 hour experience. Maybe that's what you've been built for, is that eight hours, but you know, the difference between a one star hotel and a five star hotel is probably ten hours of managed experience. Adam: Yeah. And a much higher ADR as well. Richard: but that's where it comes from, right? You take care of a person, they give you more money. Yeah, you basically like, you give the care, you look after that person, you basically have the people [00:46:00] to kind of, to smother that person in, humanity and hospitality, and they give you more money for it. Adam: Yeah, so true. Richard, I can't thank you enough for coming on. It's been a delightful conversation. Richard: No, it's great to be here, and great to meet you, Vincent, as well. Vincent: Great to meet you, Richard. Thank you for your time. Thank you, Adam, for Richard: Thanks so much. Adam: Thanks.