Latest / UNCHAINEDTV'S Truth Files with Jane Velez-Mitchell / UnchainedTV: Stop Live Animal Abuse!

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UnchainedTV: Stop Live Animal Abuse! · UNCHAINEDTV'S Truth Files with Jane Velez-Mitchell

0:00
We have a breaking news for you.
0:03
It is making headlines all over the place.
0:06
As you can see, San Francisco, Chinatown, wet
0:09
markets under scrutiny for alleged animal cruelty.
0:13
Turtles' legs seen moving in response to being
0:16
cut apart.
0:17
This is a breaking news.
0:20
Live market horrors have been caught on tape.
0:23
Animal Outlook is charging that laws against animal
0:28
cruelty are simply not being enforced when it
0:30
comes to live animal markets in the San
0:31
Francisco area.
0:33
I gotta warn you, some of the things
0:34
we're showing you are just horrifying.
0:37
And they've provided this shocking video documenting widespread
0:40
abuse that they believe violates California law.
0:44
The group says, even though it's presented this
0:46
evidence and solutions, law enforcement just can't seem
0:50
to get around to taking action and enforce
0:51
the law.
0:52
The abuse involves turtles and frogs being cut
0:55
open while still alive.
0:58
That violates California law, which requires animals be
1:01
rendered unconscious or insensible to pain before death.
1:06
Now we invite the agencies involved on anytime
1:09
to respond.
1:10
Very happy to have today, Ben Williamson, the
1:14
executive director of Animal Outlook.
1:17
They have been leading the way on this
1:20
story with their undercover investigations.
1:23
So Ben, just bring us the very latest.
1:28
What is happening at these live markets?
1:32
Well, thanks so much for having me on
1:34
the show, Jane.
1:35
What you summed it up, we've done two
1:38
investigations now of these live markets in San
1:40
Francisco, one in 2022 and one in October,
1:44
2024.
1:45
And we went to dozens of these live
1:47
markets across the Bay Area.
1:49
And we find the same thing, routine daily
1:51
killing of animals in egregious ways, being bludgeoned
1:56
over the head, being cut open while they're
1:59
seemingly still alive, being suffocated, being placed into
2:03
plastic bags, animals trying to escape, animals tipping
2:06
out onto the street.
2:08
And it's really horrible stuff.
2:09
I mean, the cruelty is right there in
2:11
plain sight.
2:12
And we've, over the years, since our very
2:15
first investigation, we've submitted our complaints to the
2:18
SFACC, Animal Care and Control, who are charged
2:22
with enforcing the law when it comes to
2:24
animal cruelty.
2:25
And they just haven't done enough.
2:27
On our first investigation, they issued one citation
2:30
for animal cruelty, and that was for a
2:32
turtle who was being cut open alive.
2:34
So they acknowledged that there's a problem here.
2:37
They just, they say that they're kind of
2:39
powerless to do anything, which we disagree with.
2:41
Our lawyers have looked at the case law.
2:43
They've looked at all of the law in
2:45
regards to this.
2:47
And they say, no, not only does ACC
2:49
have the right to enforce the animal cruelty
2:52
law, which in California is pretty good, they
2:55
have an obligation to do so, because it's
2:57
certainly not up to the police.
2:59
The ACC is responsible to enforce animal cruelty
3:03
law in California, and they just haven't done
3:06
enough of it.
3:07
So again, this is disturbing footage.
3:10
And, you know, you've got to look at
3:12
this all the time.
3:14
Just uploading the video was so disturbing to
3:18
me.
3:18
And what occurs to me is that frogs,
3:25
turtles, and fish are just not considered a
3:28
top priority by society, which is so unfair.
3:32
I want to dive deep into some of
3:35
the responses.
3:36
Now, I have to tell you, we did
3:38
call San Francisco Animal Care and Control and
3:41
sought a response.
3:43
I did not get a call back.
3:44
However, San Francisco Animal Care and Control did
3:48
speak, at least issued a statement to CBS
3:50
News, which covered this, quote, while the allegations
3:53
are shocking, San Francisco Animal Care and Control
3:56
can only act on what we see.
3:58
We cannot cite based on videos.
4:00
Our animal control officers respond to constituent complaints
4:03
and concerns as quickly as we can with
4:06
the resources we have available.
4:08
So what is your response to their response
4:12
that they can't go on a video that
4:15
you've shown them, which we've all just watched,
4:18
which shows a giant mallet and a thrashing
4:21
animal, that they've got to see it themselves?
4:25
Yeah, well, there's two points they're making there,
4:26
right?
4:27
They're saying that they can't cite based on
4:30
video evidence and that they don't have the
4:32
resources available to enforce.
4:34
And we dispute both.
4:36
So for the video evidence case, I mean,
4:38
clearly you say that these animals are overlooked
4:42
by society.
4:42
This would never happen if it was humans,
4:44
right?
4:45
If we had documented reliable evidence of this
4:48
kind of thing happening to humans, you can
4:49
guarantee that the doors being kicked down would
4:51
be people going to jail for this.
4:53
So on case law, and we looked at
4:56
the traffic laws, the footage-involved traffic laws,
4:59
the case law is quite clear that you
5:01
can issue citations for footage-involved traffic law
5:05
violations.
5:06
You can do that for this as well.
5:09
Neither the US Constitution, the California Constitution, or
5:12
California Penal Code prevents the ACC from issuing
5:17
citations based on third-party video evidence.
5:20
That seems to be a rule that ACC
5:22
has just created for itself and it seems
5:25
to be quite convenient that they don't have
5:27
to do it because they say they don't.
5:29
In fact, California Penal Code is quite clear.
5:32
They have an exemption for arrests.
5:33
Arrests you have to witness firsthand.
5:35
The police and ACC, who also have the
5:39
ability to issue warrants and arrest people.
5:43
But citations, which are considered small fines at
5:47
best, which can be contested in court, the
5:49
people committing these apparent crimes can have their
5:53
day in court if they contest the citation.
5:56
They can be issued free and especially based
5:58
on third-party evidence, which is a way
6:01
of getting around the fact that they say
6:03
they have no resources.
6:03
That's the other thing we dispute.
6:05
They have 14 animal control officers.
6:09
They go to 10,000 calls every year,
6:13
most of them being cats and dogs because,
6:15
Jane, as you alluded to, society generally takes
6:18
cats and dog preferences over wild animals, over
6:21
aquatic animals.
6:23
So you could, we think, if you're not
6:26
gonna accept our evidence, which we think is
6:28
irrefutable, and they have also called shocking and
6:30
they have also issued citations based on our
6:32
evidence, or at least inspected based on our
6:35
evidence in the past, then you can at
6:36
least send your officers on a daily or
6:38
a weekly or a monthly basis because, as
6:40
I say, they know this stuff is happening.
6:42
We know it's happening.
6:43
Everyone in San Francisco knows this is happening,
6:46
but you can go see it for yourself,
6:48
issue citations, and maybe it will stop.
6:52
Well, this is not just happening in San
6:55
Francisco.
6:57
In New York City, there is a similar
7:00
battle against live markets, and this is just
7:03
so, so disturbing.
7:06
First of all, a couple of things.
7:08
It doesn't sound like you needed to go
7:11
in there and take a job as a
7:14
butcher to see this.
7:16
This is a retail market where people go
7:19
to get food, their idea of food, live
7:24
animals, and watch them be killed in front
7:27
of them and then take those animals home,
7:29
the carcasses, and eat them.
7:32
So it would appear to me, correct me
7:34
if I'm wrong, that you went in as
7:35
a shopper and documented this with a hidden
7:38
camera.
7:39
You didn't have to, your team didn't have
7:41
to take a job there and lurk around.
7:44
It seems like it's pretty much happening in
7:47
the open.
7:50
As one of the articles said, hidden in
7:52
plain sight is this cruelty.
7:54
So why can't they go and document exactly
7:58
what you documented with a simple trip there
8:01
in plain clothes?
8:03
Yeah, yeah, we feel that they could, and
8:06
we feel that it's just, you know, we
8:08
know these people to be well-meaning.
8:10
They are animal people, but for the reasons
8:12
that they've put up, and they're not giving
8:14
us that many reasons, as you said, they're
8:15
not in communication with us, but speaking through
8:18
the press, through all those articles that you've
8:21
cited, they do allude to the fact that
8:23
they say they can't accept third-party evidence
8:24
and they don't have the resources to send
8:26
people.
8:26
And that's just something I don't think is
8:28
valid.
8:29
14 animal control officers, 10,000 calls every
8:32
year.
8:33
Why can't you make time for these turtles
8:34
and these frogs?
8:36
And let's take a look at some of
8:37
their other, I'm gonna just say, excuses, all
8:41
right?
8:41
Now, you got written up at the San
8:43
Francisco Standard.
8:44
The deputy director of animal care and control
8:46
said, they told the Standard, the agency is
8:49
constrained because it's not staffed by sworn officers,
8:53
which means its team members have to witness
8:55
an offence in order to cite it.
8:56
Now, we just went over that.
8:58
They could go over just like you did.
9:00
And with a video camera or their phone,
9:04
any number of ways they could see what
9:07
you've seen with so many people who visit
9:09
these live animal markets, which are retail slaughterhouses,
9:13
see.
9:14
Then they said, the agency has not seen
9:16
anyone successfully prosecute live animal cruelty under current
9:19
laws.
9:20
Courts are backed up with serious felonies with
9:22
violent crimes.
9:23
So these are not always seen as a
9:26
priority.
9:27
To me, that gets to the heart of
9:29
this.
9:29
They don't see it as a priority.
9:32
They assume because it's a turtle or a
9:35
frog that, eh, but that's not the law.
9:39
The law is that in California, an animal
9:42
has to be rendered insensible or unconscious before
9:46
he or she is slaughtered.
9:50
Take it away.
9:51
Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right.
9:53
I mean, that word, serious crimes, just alludes
9:56
to the fact that they're not taking it
9:58
as seriously as they should.
10:00
And because we're talking about other species, it's
10:04
a deprioritized target.
10:06
So we, as we say, we fully want
10:10
them, we're pushing them to actually do more
10:11
on this subject.
10:14
They have the power to do more.
10:16
They are enforced to do more.
10:18
They, the health code actually gives them the
10:21
power to issue citations, to issue fines.
10:24
It's there in plain writing in the California
10:26
health code.
10:28
While they may not be, they may not
10:31
feel that they have the power to arrest
10:32
people and enforce warrants, they can issue fines.
10:35
In fact, they're mandated to issue fines.
10:37
So that's what we're asking them to do.
10:39
If you issue enough citations on it, then
10:41
practises will change.
10:43
It will be financially impossible for these places
10:45
to keep doing what they're doing.
10:47
And that's how you can bring about change.
10:50
But they're also, they could work with police
10:52
if they wanted to, to enforce the law
10:54
and to bring about criminal prosecutions on this.
10:57
And so far we haven't seen any action
10:59
on either one.
11:01
So we just think that they're really falling
11:04
down here.
11:04
We think that we can, as a society,
11:07
as people who care about animals, as San
11:09
Francisco residents, and you're right, these things happen
11:11
all over the country as well.
11:12
And we urge anyone who's outraged about this
11:15
to contact their local officials and demand action
11:20
for the cruelty that's happening on a daily
11:21
basis in these live markets.
11:23
But we can push them to do more
11:26
on this.
11:26
And we just need some public support and
11:29
we need people to really take this responsibility
11:33
seriously.
11:34
So you had mentioned that this is a
11:37
coast to coast battle.
11:39
It's happening in New York.
11:40
There are many protests.
11:42
You're looking at an image of one of
11:44
them.
11:44
And we have a short clip to show
11:47
you of one of the shows about this
11:50
on Unshamed TV, which really documents the horror
11:56
of live markets.
11:58
This is from New York City.
12:01
Do you see any water troughs anywhere for
12:03
them?
12:03
I don't see any water troughs.
12:05
Get the fuck out.
12:05
Get the fuck out.
12:06
Don't touch her.
12:06
Do not touch her.
12:07
Get the fuck out.
12:08
Get the fuck out.
12:09
You may be surprised to learn wet markets
12:12
where live animals are sold on the spot
12:14
are also in the United States.
12:17
There are over 80 wet markets still operating
12:19
in the New York City area alone.
12:21
In Brooklyn, Astoria, Flushing, the Bronx, and Harlem.
12:24
Careful with the faeces.
12:25
You don't wanna bring that faeces home.
12:27
There's heads, guts, just leaving it on the
12:30
sidewalk.
12:30
Why are these live markets in our neighbourhood?
12:33
Right next to a dental office.
12:34
We can't be pointing the finger at China
12:36
when we have the same or worse conditions
12:40
here.
12:40
It doesn't matter whether they're wild animals or
12:43
domestic animals.
12:46
Live animal markets are a breeding ground for
12:48
disease.
12:49
And indeed, the next pandemic may come from
12:52
live bird markets in New York City rather
12:55
than wet markets somewhere in South Asia.
12:58
Does it have concerned you that you have
13:00
a live animal market in your own backyard?
13:01
Everybody gets upset, but the health department, nobody
13:05
wants to do anything.
13:06
If you don't like it, don't come by
13:08
there.
13:08
Because unfortunately, I personally can't do anything.
13:17
There we have it.
13:19
Two of the most influential cities in the
13:21
world, New York City and San Francisco.
13:26
And they're all over the country.
13:28
They're all over the world, these live animal
13:30
markets.
13:30
And what activist Adita Bernkranth said is, we're
13:34
pointing the finger at China for like their
13:36
Wuhan market, which some still now feel was
13:41
the source of the COVID pandemic.
13:44
There's always a debate.
13:45
Was it the lab in Wuhan?
13:47
Was it the wet market?
13:48
But we know that those wet markets are
13:52
a harbinger of disease.
13:54
We know we've got bird flu right now,
13:57
which is an escalating threat that is posing
14:00
a greater and greater problem.
14:04
This New York Times report just from the
14:06
other day says a dangerous virus, bird flu
14:10
enters a new phase.
14:12
A human pandemic is not inevitable, but a
14:14
series of developments indicates that the possibility is
14:18
no longer remote.
14:21
And despite this and despite that live markets
14:24
inherently have animals in crowded conditions, which is
14:28
a breeding ground for potential disease, still authorities
14:31
in New York, authorities in San Francisco, nowhere
14:34
are they taking action against these live markets,
14:38
Ben.
14:38
Yeah, I mean, you're right.
14:40
Even before the COVID pandemic, we all knew
14:42
that live markets were a source of possible
14:46
zoonosis, transfer of pathogens from non-human animals
14:50
to humans.
14:52
SARS, MERS, bird flu, swine flu, you name
14:55
it.
14:55
All of these diseases started in non-human
14:59
animals and can be passed.
15:01
So we haven't specifically looked at the health
15:04
implications of this as an animal protection organisation.
15:09
Our priority is with protecting these turtles, the
15:12
fish, the frogs.
15:14
But absolutely, you're right.
15:16
These places, I mean, you can smell the
15:19
gore, the blood as you walk past them,
15:22
as the bacteria that must be living in
15:26
all of them.
15:28
We don't want to be alarmist about this
15:30
thing, but if the history keeps showing that
15:33
these diseases are, these novel diseases are being
15:36
created in animals, in non-human animals, and
15:39
then transferring to humans, surely you've got to
15:42
do something about it.
15:43
And I think the whole, the Wuhan, whether
15:46
it was in a lab or the market,
15:48
has just kind of sidetracked us into not
15:51
taking the threat, the fact that it could
15:53
have possibly happened, and probably, a lot of
15:56
people think, probably happened at this wet market.
15:59
Surely that's enough to go on to say,
16:02
right, we should do something about this.
16:04
Enough is enough.
16:05
And we're getting other people saying, for example,
16:09
Tom, we have wet markets in Chicago too.
16:12
Yes, they're all over the country.
16:14
And speaking of the bird flu, we have
16:18
been very carefully following the developments because so
16:23
many of them are happening also here in
16:25
California.
16:26
I don't know if you've seen this, but
16:28
Dr. Crystal Keith, of our honour, went around
16:32
at her own risk and started documenting piles
16:35
of dead cows by the road in California,
16:39
apparent victims of bird flu.
16:43
And we know that bird flu has infected
16:46
cows and it has infected some people.
16:49
And again, the threat is very real.
16:53
So for those who might say, oh, we're
16:55
being alarmist, look at these images, okay?
16:59
And then let's go back to the images
17:02
that Ben Williamson's organisation, Animal Outlook, provided vis
17:08
-a-vis the conditions in these wet markets.
17:13
And again, we're not singling any one wet
17:16
market out.
17:17
This is how it's done.
17:20
It's live animals that are slaughtered on the
17:22
spot.
17:23
And you see there, frogs being beheaded with
17:26
no stunning.
17:28
So they're being chopped up alive.
17:30
Now, again, there you see, there's a fish
17:34
being chopped up alive.
17:36
We invite San Francisco Animal Care and Control
17:39
on any time to respond to anything said
17:42
today.
17:43
We would love to dialogue with you about
17:45
this issue.
17:46
There you see a turtle being struck with
17:48
a mallet then butchered.
17:49
I mean, now look, one of the things
17:53
that Adita Bernkrant, the activist said, don't point
17:56
the finger at China.
17:58
We're doing the same thing here.
18:00
And let's face it, factory farming is just
18:03
as cruel in a different way.
18:05
So nobody's attacking anybody's culture, but there is
18:10
a general reluctance, I think, to look at
18:14
any issue where somebody can say, you're attacking
18:17
my culture.
18:19
And we all have cultures.
18:21
I'm Puerto Rican and Irish.
18:22
Do not use my culture to justify animal
18:24
cruelty in any way, shape or form, all
18:26
right?
18:27
I don't want it.
18:28
It's no excuse for animal abuse.
18:31
And I think that the same would apply
18:34
to any culture.
18:35
There's no excuse for animal abuse.
18:38
What are your thoughts on that?
18:40
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
18:42
I mean, Animal Outlook as an organisation, we
18:44
spend most of our time doing undercover investigations
18:47
of those international massive agribusinesses, the likes of
18:52
Tyson and Foster Farms and JBS.
18:55
They're the organisations that provide the most amount
18:58
of meat and have the most culpability in
19:01
animal suffering, certainly in terms of scale.
19:04
So, and our message is a vegan one.
19:07
It's not singling out a particular slaughtering method.
19:11
We want all of this to stop because
19:13
we know that even with the best wool
19:16
in the world and the most humane slaughtering
19:19
techniques, it's still wrong to kill animals, take
19:23
the life of an animal who doesn't want
19:25
to die.
19:25
So our message is always vegan.
19:27
Our message is always, if you're upset by
19:30
what's happening at wet markets, but you still
19:32
eat meat, then you really need to rethink
19:34
that, your priorities there.
19:37
I will say something, Crystal Heath, who you
19:39
mentioned, has done fantastic work exposing the dairy,
19:43
the bird flu and dairy.
19:44
She's done more work to get veterinarians who
19:48
are another group who are quite absent on
19:52
this issue, on taking bird flu, on bird
19:55
safety and ventilation shutdown.
19:57
She's done more on this issue than almost
19:58
anybody in the movement.
20:00
So hats off to Crystal for all her
20:03
undercover analysis here.
20:05
But yeah, I mean, this is not an
20:07
issue of culture.
20:08
It's an issue of animal cruelty.
20:09
We take a plain view reading of the
20:12
law.
20:12
And if animals are suffering according to the
20:15
law, then wherever you live, whatever culture you're
20:18
part of, we're calling for that to stop.
20:20
Because let's face it, most of the time,
20:23
animals aren't represented very well in the law
20:25
because they don't vote.
20:26
This is one instance where the law is
20:28
really clear.
20:29
California's Penal Code, General Animal Cruelty Law, and
20:32
they also have a live market law specifically
20:34
to cater to our feathered and skinned friends.
20:38
It's one issue where we actually have good
20:40
law and the law is not being enforced.
20:43
Well, let me say this.
20:45
The idea of not enforcing animal cruelty laws
20:48
is such a big issue.
20:50
And so many organisations have tried to tackle
20:53
this with very little success.
20:56
As you know, California passed Prop 2 many
21:00
years ago that just wanted to give animals
21:04
room to turn around and spread their wings.
21:07
And then they most recently passed Prop 12,
21:10
which essentially bans pig gestation crates, which are
21:14
these hideous, like the first time I saw
21:17
one, I said, no, it's not possible that
21:20
human beings can be this sadistic to keep
21:23
animals in crates the size of their bodies,
21:26
never able to turn around, even scratch themselves,
21:30
they become psychotic.
21:31
And I just wonder about the human, it
21:35
makes me embarrassed to be a member of
21:37
the human race when I see something like
21:39
this, just beyond comprehension, horrible.
21:43
Well, California passed Prop 12, which says that
21:45
products from pigs kept in these crates cannot
21:49
be sold in California.
21:51
California is the fifth largest economy in the
21:53
world.
21:54
So that battle went all the way up
21:56
to the US Supreme Court and the US
21:59
Supreme Court said, Prop 12 is the law.
22:02
However, are there any enforcements?
22:05
No, there's never been an enforcement to my
22:08
knowledge and others who have been examining this
22:11
issue of either Prop 2 or Prop 12.
22:13
And then when animal organisations go in and
22:17
they document abuses of these particular propositions passed
22:24
by the California voters, what happens is they're
22:27
often prosecuted.
22:29
So I wanna play a clip for you
22:31
of protests about the prosecution of activists who
22:37
have gone in and documented what's happening to
22:41
these animals and taken a few symbolically out
22:45
as rescues.
22:48
And then they themselves, those animal rescuers are
22:53
prosecuted.
22:54
Sonoma County District Attorney.
22:56
Instead of prosecuting rescuers and whistleblowers, prosecute this.
23:02
On November 2nd, a jury in Sonoma County,
23:05
California convicted Wayne Chung, the co-founder of
23:09
Direct Action Everywhere, of three trespass charges associated
23:13
with the rescue of sick and dying ducks
23:16
and chickens in factory farms.
23:19
Now, advocates around the world are asking why
23:22
the Sonoma County District Attorney prosecuted a person
23:25
who was lawfully helping desperate animals instead of
23:29
the factory farmers engaging in criminal animal abuse.
23:32
Here's what New Yorkers have to say about
23:34
this miscarriage of justice.
23:36
Sonoma County District Attorney.
23:39
You have evidence of animals with painful injuries
23:42
who are starving to death right now because
23:45
they have no access to food and water.
23:48
Animals are being criminally abused at a duck
23:50
farm in Petaluma.
23:51
What steps are you taking to investigate and
23:54
stop the rampant criminal animal cruelty in your
23:57
animal factories?
23:58
How can you ignore the horrific abuse of
24:02
thousands of animals in your jurisdiction?
24:05
Sonoma County District Attorney.
24:07
When will you stop looking the other way
24:09
and prosecute this?
24:12
I'm appalled that you sent an animal rescuer
24:14
to jail when all he did was try
24:17
to help the victims who your office is
24:20
neglecting.
24:21
Sonoma County District Attorney.
24:23
Prosecute this.
24:25
Oh, you get the idea.
24:26
I know this is a totally different organisation
24:29
from yours and I'm not implying that you
24:31
guys are in any way connected.
24:34
The commonality is you are trying to get
24:38
San Francisco Animal Care and Control to prosecute
24:41
laws that say you cannot just chop up
24:45
animals alive in a wet market just because
24:47
it's a wet market.
24:49
They are trying to get a district attorney
24:52
in Sonoma County to prosecute what they say
24:55
are violations of animal cruelty laws happening in
24:58
factory farms.
25:00
And not only is there no prosecution, but
25:03
the people who go into these facilities, in
25:08
your case, you didn't have to go into
25:09
any, it's a retail market.
25:11
You go in as a shopper.
25:13
But in their case, they've got to go
25:14
in there to document, then they get prosecuted.
25:17
I mean, we're living in an upside down
25:19
world.
25:19
What are your thoughts on that?
25:21
Yeah, absolutely.
25:21
It's one of our biggest frustrations as an
25:23
organisation.
25:24
So Animal Outlook's theory of change is we
25:26
do our undercover investigations.
25:28
That's probably what people know us best for.
25:30
Then our legal team sues on the violations
25:33
of criminal statutes that we find as a
25:35
result of our investigations.
25:37
And then we use all of that as
25:39
our evidence base for our vegan outreach programme.
25:42
Now, the suing, the recommending charges, in the
25:45
case of live markets, recommended dozens of charges
25:48
and had one citation, as I mentioned, at
25:50
the top of the show issued.
25:52
It's just a lottery whether the people are
25:56
going, the judges in charge, whether the magistrates
25:59
are going to take up, whether the district
26:00
attorney is even going to file the charges,
26:02
let alone it go to court, whether the
26:06
police are going to take the time to
26:07
investigate.
26:09
It's just a lottery.
26:10
Sometimes you end up in the hands of
26:11
a sympathetic district attorney and they take it
26:15
on.
26:15
And we have been successful in the past
26:18
of getting guilty pleas and successful prosecutions and
26:21
fines and prevention of ever working with animals
26:24
again orders.
26:26
But a lot of the time, just getting
26:29
people to prioritise the animal suffering that we
26:32
have documented so clearly and so meticulously, and
26:35
we take so much time and effort to
26:37
do that, making sure that we're always on
26:40
the right side of the law.
26:41
We're not doing anything illegal, which would invalidate
26:43
all of the evidence.
26:44
We do so carefully plan these things, but
26:47
just because someone doesn't feel like it, someone
26:50
hasn't put it to the top of their
26:51
pile, these things can call for that.
26:53
And that could be months and months of
26:55
work down the drain.
26:58
Now, in the case of direct action everywhere
27:00
and actually going after the wrong people, fortunately,
27:04
we've never been on that side.
27:05
And I hope that we're not on the
27:07
side of being prosecuted ourselves, because as I
27:10
say, we plan these things so meticulously and
27:13
we aren't doing open rescues.
27:15
Unfortunately, our investigators are in the impossible position
27:18
of having to watch the cruelty, having to
27:20
document the cruelty without having, otherwise they'd blow
27:25
their cover, the ability to intervene and prevent
27:27
it from happening.
27:29
It's more impactful if we can document it,
27:31
watch it and all the suffering that goes
27:33
into it, and then extricate ourselves and then
27:36
push for criminal prosecutions.
27:37
Because as we know, the way our theory
27:39
of change works is if you can get
27:42
those sympathetic DAs or the police to take
27:44
this seriously, and you can get a judge
27:45
to rule when you have what's called the
27:47
police and other organisations, if you can do
27:52
that, you build up a series of case
27:53
law where then in the future, judges and
27:56
DAs have no alternative, but to say, okay,
28:00
because this happened in the past and the
28:03
case law is such, we have to now
28:05
follow through on this.
28:06
Animals won't be, you know, it's like the
28:08
non-human rights project.
28:10
Animals can't be turned over again and again.
28:12
At some point, the penny has to drop
28:14
and there has to be a tipping point
28:17
where suddenly it becomes imperative for people in
28:20
authority to act on the incomprehensible, but also
28:25
the irrefutable evidence that we've provided.
28:28
Well, you talk about tipping points.
28:31
So let's broaden our conversation out a little
28:34
bit because let's face it, the animal rights
28:38
movement has been under attack lately.
28:41
The vegan movement has been under attack.
28:44
Personally, the way I see it, when Beyond
28:47
Meat's incredibly successful initial public offering hit in
28:51
2019, the stock shot up, everybody was talking
28:55
about it.
28:55
Animal agriculture went, oh my gosh, we better.
28:58
And they literally started a PR war against
29:02
veggie burgers and it's taken its toll.
29:05
That's why I always tell vegans, I don't
29:07
care what your form of veganism is, don't
29:12
attack veggie burgers.
29:13
They're a thousand times healthier than meat burgers.
29:16
Processed meat is officially cancer causing and all
29:19
processed is not equal.
29:20
You take a banana and a mango and
29:22
you mush them up, that's processed.
29:24
That doesn't mean it's bad for you.
29:26
But suffice it to say that I urge
29:29
people, do not repeat meat industry talking points.
29:33
So there's that.
29:35
And unfortunately, if we look at the number
29:41
of animals killed, it continues to go up.
29:44
Now, when I look at this and it
29:47
breaks my heart to look at this, and
29:49
this is the result of all sorts of
29:52
individuals across the world making a choice to
29:54
eat animals, but you can see very clearly
29:57
that the number one animal being killed for
30:00
food is chicken.
30:02
And this to me seems that it's gotta
30:06
be an opportunity that if we could somehow,
30:10
you've got the bird flu issue, right?
30:13
You've got the health issues of cholesterol and
30:16
heart disease.
30:17
You've got so many issues.
30:20
If we could convince people just to forsake
30:24
chicken as a first step, perhaps, even though
30:29
that seems to be sometimes the first thing
30:31
when people give up eating quote unquote red
30:33
meat, they start eating chicken.
30:35
But to me, there's gotta be an opportunity
30:37
there to just tackle this massive chicken consumption
30:42
and maybe put a dent in those numbers.
30:45
I know it's a little off topic, but
30:46
I was wondering what your thoughts are on
30:48
that.
30:49
Yeah, absolutely, you're right.
30:50
Chickens are by far the most abused animal
30:52
on the planet.
30:53
And that's why a lot of our undercover
30:55
investigations are in grower farms, they're in contract
31:00
catcher crews.
31:03
The suffering is enormous.
31:05
Our most recent investigation, Jane, which you had
31:07
me on the show for a few months
31:08
ago, of Foster Farms, which is California's largest
31:11
poultry producer, showed workers violently throwing and kicking
31:15
the animals and punching them, and forklifts, trucks
31:19
running over, clipping the wings of birds and
31:20
then backing up over them as well.
31:23
So we know that the cruelty happens.
31:25
We know that it's a cause of, at
31:27
the moment, certainly bird flu, when you keep
31:30
that many animals tightly compacted into one of
31:32
those windowless sheds.
31:34
So we do go after chicken.
31:36
I think what the ability of the conversations
31:39
around live markets allows us to do is
31:42
also to have those kinds of conversations with
31:45
people as a new entry point.
31:47
Because you get to people who eat chicken
31:50
but are against the suffering of turtles and
31:52
frogs by saying, well, what's the difference between
31:55
a turtle, a frog, and a chicken?
31:58
These abuses happen everywhere.
31:59
My personal opinion is if there's money to
32:01
be made from animals, corners are going to
32:03
be cut and animals are going to suffer.
32:05
That happens anywhere.
32:07
So we have to take the use of
32:08
animals out of the system, the money, monetary
32:11
incentives, the financial incentives out of it, and
32:15
then animals will cease to suffer.
32:17
But for now, chicken is, you know, it
32:20
is the number one abused animal.
32:22
It is the one that, if we could
32:24
end the suffering of chickens, we would have
32:27
done a lot to end the suffering of
32:29
animals altogether.
32:31
I think the meat substitutes that you've talked
32:33
about, the technology is just getting better and
32:36
better.
32:36
You know, we did have that high point
32:38
at the IPO of Beyond Meat.
32:40
It seems to have plateaued now.
32:41
And I think that has a lot to
32:42
do with the cost of living crisis, the
32:45
fact that inflation is so high and people
32:46
just aren't feeling that ability to spend a
32:50
bit more.
32:50
As the technology improves, as the economy of
32:52
scale grows, you know, I just had the
32:55
impossible Lion King nuggets that I give to
32:59
my kids.
33:00
You know, that's a wonderful invention that replaces
33:03
those kind of dino nugget things that Tyson
33:06
Purdue and all those companies produce.
33:08
So that is the way that we do
33:11
this by scaling up those fantastic, delicious, that
33:14
just come on leaps and bounds in the
33:16
last decade.
33:17
Certainly, you know, Jane, you and I remember
33:19
what it was like to eat all those
33:21
analogue, let's call them, initial first round burgers
33:25
and franks and those kinds of things.
33:27
So that's how we do it.
33:29
We keep showing the cruelty.
33:30
We keep breaking out of our vegan bubble
33:32
as well, because we're the best one in
33:34
the world.
33:34
We are a relatively small community.
33:37
We need to keep taking our footage to
33:38
the streets to show people who have never
33:40
seen this, who have never thought about animal
33:42
suffering in their life, who have never tasted
33:43
a veggie burger, let alone an impossible dino
33:46
nugget, and show them and get them to
33:49
realise just how wonderful this world is.
33:51
And if they could make choices in their
33:53
daily lives, which don't have any suffering, you
33:55
know, why would they choose otherwise?
33:58
Yes, you're making so many good points.
34:01
And I feel there's no stopping a movement
34:04
whose time has come and ours has certainly
34:08
come.
34:09
This New York Times article, I think, sums
34:11
it up.
34:12
Save the planet, put down that hamburger.
34:15
Researchers examined the diet of 55,500 people
34:18
and found that vegans are responsible for 75
34:20
% less in greenhouse gases than meat eaters.
34:25
And, you know, it's interesting because no other
34:29
network picked that up.
34:31
I looked that night and for next couple
34:34
of nights, you never hear mainstream media talking
34:37
about animal agriculture's impact on the climate or
34:41
a plant-based solution to the climate crisis.
34:45
And why is that?
34:46
Look at the advertisers, meat, dairy, fast food,
34:49
pharmaceuticals.
34:50
Those are the very industries that would suffer
34:53
mightily if people got healthy and stopped eating
34:57
meat and dairy packed fast food that is
34:59
causing so many health crises in this country.
35:04
Two thirds of Americans are overweight or obese.
35:07
We have heart disease as a leading killer.
35:10
We have cancer, processed meat is officially cancer
35:12
causing.
35:13
According to the World Health Organisation, even the
35:16
NIH, National Institutes of Health admits that most
35:19
people experience lactose malabsorption.
35:22
That means most people are allergic to dairy
35:24
and shouldn't be drinking it.
35:27
I would just like to get your thoughts.
35:29
Why is it that what is so obvious
35:31
to us, and, you know, it's very apparent
35:35
in the media today that they like to
35:39
look at sort of these, ah, you know,
35:42
solutions or things that are trending.
35:45
And I like to cite the 80-20
35:48
rule.
35:49
I typed it down here somewhere.
35:51
I can't find it.
35:52
But anyway, the 80-20 rule is that
35:54
20% of inputs create 80% of
35:58
outcomes.
35:59
And as soon as I saw that and
36:00
read an article about it, I was like,
36:03
ta-dum, that is animal agriculture.
36:06
It's the 20% creating the 80%
36:09
of negative outcomes for the climate, animal abuse,
36:14
human health, ah, disasters, ah, pollution, you know,
36:19
ocean desertification, ah, all sorts of problems that
36:24
are the result of this one industry.
36:27
Why do you think the intelligentsia, and it's
36:31
a bipartisan problem.
36:34
Both administrations have been, well, historically, Republicans and
36:38
Democrats have been horrible on this issue.
36:41
Let's say in the past, historically.
36:43
I don't want to get into politics.
36:44
But why do you think that the best
36:47
and the brightest, the smartest in the room
36:49
can't see what is so obvious to us?
36:53
Yeah, I mean, it's a really interesting question.
36:57
And it's one that kind of confounds behaviour
37:00
scientists to this day.
37:02
We've done a lot of research.
37:03
We worked with the Yale School for Environment
37:06
and Public Health.
37:07
We've worked with the School of Communications down
37:09
at the University of Florida.
37:10
Because this aspect of how you change human
37:13
behaviour is so important.
37:15
And there are, when you're talking about something
37:17
that you've put into your body three times
37:19
a day, it's a very loaded question.
37:21
People, there's such cultural identity that people associate
37:24
with food.
37:25
I mean, we started talking about the fly
37:26
market issue.
37:27
You know, the cultural identity issue, the familial
37:30
ties, the social aspects.
37:33
You know, there's a lot that goes into
37:35
people's food choices.
37:36
I mean, that's why it's fairly easy to
37:39
get people, the general public riled up about
37:42
the torture of cats and dogs, but not
37:45
about, you know, the chicken, the pigs, the
37:48
cows that they're putting into their bodies because
37:50
of all these emotive societal ties that go
37:53
into it.
37:54
So I think there's that.
37:56
I think there's a huge blind spot when
37:57
it comes to the information.
37:59
I also think that people have lost trust
38:02
in the media and partly for the reasons
38:04
you talk about, advertisement.
38:06
And people, they see things in journals and
38:08
they just don't believe them anymore, which is
38:11
a psyche that goes beyond our animal protection
38:15
movements and invades all kinds of other movements
38:18
as well.
38:19
So there's that barrier to get across.
38:21
But we have the problem, and Jane, you'll
38:24
know this because you're in the news.
38:27
We struggle to get our investigations out there
38:30
even because a lot of the news editors
38:32
will say, I mean, we know it's slaughter,
38:35
it's horrible.
38:36
We know that animals suffer.
38:38
Yeah, when you go and talk to the
38:40
general public and show them this, they say,
38:44
wow, I didn't think this kind of thing
38:45
happened.
38:46
This is shocking.
38:47
No, it happens every day.
38:49
In every investigation that we do, we find
38:52
instances of cruelty to animals, blatant, egregious cruelty
38:57
to animals.
38:58
But, you know, so it's a strange paradox
39:00
where the news is saying, we know this,
39:03
we know it's cruel, yet the general public
39:05
doesn't.
39:06
So someone's not doing their job properly and
39:07
someone's not doing enough to educate the public,
39:10
or maybe the public also just have this
39:12
blind spot and don't want to know.
39:14
And everything, it's what I think is called
39:18
cognitive dissonance.
39:19
People have just switched off.
39:21
You know, I don't want to know.
39:23
I think the world is all hunky-dory
39:25
and I think that animals live outside in
39:27
fields and enjoy, and there's just one tiny
39:30
moment at the end of their lives.
39:31
That's just not the case.
39:32
We prove it on a daily basis with
39:35
our investigations, yet breaking through into the mainstream
39:38
and changing people's consciousness.
39:40
That's why a lot of organisations like mine,
39:42
like Animal Outlook, like everyone else, is really
39:45
searching for how do we get our message
39:48
out there?
39:48
Because, Jane, you're wonderful in inviting us into
39:50
the show and talking about it, but just
39:52
there's not enough opportunities to do that.
39:55
Well, absolutely.
39:57
I started this because I was in mainstream
40:00
media for decades and I've been behind the
40:03
curtain.
40:03
And you don't have to have somebody knock
40:05
on your door and say, hey, don't talk
40:06
about that.
40:08
You just look at the advertising on your
40:10
network and you could do the math pretty
40:12
easily.
40:13
You shouldn't talk about that.
40:14
And again, this is across the board.
40:17
It doesn't matter which network.
40:20
If there's advertising involved, they're not gonna cover
40:24
it generally.
40:25
Now, you have had success, though, in getting
40:28
some mainstream media coverage.
40:31
On this particular issue, the horrors in the
40:34
live market, you were on CBS News, San
40:37
Francisco Standard, and as I understand it, the
40:41
Daily Mail.
40:42
So what is your strategy when you approach
40:45
these media organisations?
40:48
How do you work it that you're able,
40:51
because you have to claw your way, like
40:53
getting one of these articles.
40:55
I know how hard it is.
40:58
How do you do it?
41:00
I mean, it's a really difficult process.
41:05
I came up in the animal protection movement
41:08
through doing press.
41:10
Before I joined the animal protection movement in
41:12
2011, I was an economist and I was
41:17
working in the city when the financial crisis
41:19
of 2009 happened.
41:21
And suddenly there was a lot of demand
41:23
from the news to work out what would
41:25
happen to the labour market, what would happen
41:27
to interest rates.
41:28
And so I started doing a lot of
41:29
press at my firm.
41:31
And so my first job in the movement
41:32
was with PETA, who do a lot of
41:35
press themselves and working in the press office.
41:37
And I did that for seven years.
41:38
So I learned some things along the way
41:40
about how to package a story, how to
41:43
make it interesting and make it easy for
41:45
reporters, because reporters are doing sometimes two or
41:49
three stories a day.
41:50
I spoke to one Daily Mail journalist once
41:52
who was doing 16 stories a day.
41:54
So you have to make it easy as
41:55
a PR.
41:56
There's tonnes of tips and tricks and dark
41:59
arts of PR as well, which Jane, I
42:01
know you know all about.
42:05
But it's about being relentless.
42:07
It's about, it's the same thing with our
42:08
movement.
42:09
And that's why I think communicators are really
42:10
important in our movement, because you just have
42:13
to be relentless.
42:14
You can't say no for an answer, and
42:16
you can't be dispirited by it either.
42:18
If we took every knock and every hurdle
42:22
in the road as we took it personally,
42:25
then we wouldn't achieve as much as we
42:28
can.
42:29
So you have to keep getting back, keep
42:31
moving forward.
42:33
And that's the only way.
42:35
So it's about being relentless.
42:36
It's about sending to a lot of people.
42:38
And you do find people, going back to
42:39
one point, and it's specific about who is
42:44
vegan, why we, you and I, Jane, and
42:45
many of your audience, I'm sure, why we've
42:50
made the connection.
42:50
What I love about our movement and why
42:52
I'm so positive that we will make a
42:55
vegan world happen is because you can, there's
42:59
vegans in every section of society, whether you're
43:02
in the news or you're a doctor or
43:04
you're a labourer, it doesn't take anything special
43:08
to be vegan.
43:09
You just have to, a switch has to
43:12
flip on.
43:13
And so that's why I'm so buoyed about
43:18
the future is because there's no barrier to
43:20
entry.
43:21
It's just about going, oh yeah, that's wrong.
43:23
And I shouldn't do that.
43:24
And I have the power to change.
43:25
I mean, so much in the world that
43:26
we can't change.
43:27
I have the power to do something about
43:29
it every time I sit down to eat.
43:30
And so you find those sympathetic reporters, those
43:33
reporters who you know, they're either vegan or
43:35
they have an interest in it, or you
43:36
think this, or their editors are saying, yeah,
43:40
this is a subject we really need to
43:41
do more on.
43:42
And certainly some outlets, Jane, you were wonderful
43:44
when you were doing a mainstream and now
43:46
you're wonderful being so focused on this now.
43:48
But there are a few reporters who you
43:50
know, you can go back to and who
43:51
have a megaphone who can say, yeah, this
43:54
is an issue that needs closer attention.
43:56
Well, thank you for those kind words.
43:59
There are a lot of, Vox is doing
44:01
great work.
44:01
Sentient Media is doing great work.
44:04
The Guardian, which is not as advertiser based
44:07
because my understanding is that there's a trust
44:10
that runs them, does incredible work on animal
44:13
rights.
44:13
So yes, Independent Media is doing some really
44:17
good work and we just hope it increases.
44:20
So getting back to our subject, what's next
44:23
for this live animal horror story?
44:27
Like what is it that people should do?
44:31
What are you gonna do?
44:32
Are there hearings that can be attended?
44:35
What's going on?
44:37
Yeah, thanks for asking.
44:38
So there is actually a hearing of the
44:39
Commission on Animal Welfare in San Francisco next
44:42
Thursday, Thursday the 13th at 5.30 PM
44:46
at City Hall in San Francisco.
44:48
And we urge people who want to, to
44:50
please come.
44:50
As if you're a resident of San Francisco,
44:52
even better.
44:53
You can have your say, you can have
44:54
your 30 seconds and give your opinion about
44:57
why these places should be shut down to
44:59
the Commission.
45:00
The Commission itself have been very good to
45:02
work with.
45:02
They don't have the power, they're not the
45:04
ACC, but they are representing San Franciscans when
45:08
it comes to issues of animal welfare.
45:10
So they will, hopefully if they take this
45:13
issue on board, they will put some more
45:15
pressure on ACC to do more enforcement when
45:18
it comes to live markets.
45:21
And so, yep, Thursday the 13th at 5
45:23
.30, City Hall.
45:24
We're having a little photo up on the
45:27
steps of City Hall and a little protest
45:29
before five o'clock on Thursday, February 13th.
45:33
So please do join us there in San
45:35
Francisco if you can.
45:36
There's an Eventbrite page that we've created.
45:41
We will, yeah, we'll send some information around
45:44
if you join our mailing list next week.
45:46
So please do join us for that.
45:49
And once- So if people go to
45:51
animaloutlook.org and there's a place to sign
45:55
up, go to animaloutlook.org and poke around,
45:59
but they can get all the information that
46:02
you've talked about there.
46:03
Yeah, yeah, they can indeed sign up to
46:06
our mailing list.
46:06
We'll send some information out about it next
46:08
week.
46:09
As a reminder, sign up to the Eventbrite
46:12
page and we look forward to seeing you
46:14
there.
46:14
We already know that we have at least
46:15
10 people coming who will have their say.
46:18
So we're really grateful for the support.
46:21
And then the ball's really in ACC's court.
46:24
If they continue not to take it seriously,
46:26
we'll have to look to step up our
46:28
campaign.
46:28
It might mean looking to make a political
46:31
change, getting the council, getting the city government
46:34
involved, because some of these things, as you
46:38
alluded to Jane, are decided on the ballot,
46:40
at the ballot box, are decided at the
46:42
higher echelons of politics.
46:44
And so we hope that they'll see the
46:46
necessity to do something about it.
46:48
We think it's really clear, it's night and
46:50
day, but if they fail to continuously, then
46:54
we're gonna have to move higher up and
46:56
further our tactics.
46:57
Well, we've only got a couple of minutes.
47:00
Let's just get personal.
47:03
How do you handle dealing with all of
47:06
these very difficult subjects?
47:09
As I said, just editing the videos to
47:12
put them on, it takes a toll, but
47:15
nothing like what you have to go through
47:18
probably looking at many, many, many hours and
47:22
really saturating yourself in this horror.
47:25
How do you handle it?
47:26
For those who are also involved in animal
47:28
activism, who are watching sometimes say, oh, I'm
47:32
getting so burnt out.
47:34
Yeah, it's horrible stuff.
47:36
I mean, you have to desensitise yourself a
47:40
little bit to it in order to survive.
47:42
You have to remember why you're here and
47:44
why you're in the privileged position of being
47:46
able to work on behalf of animals.
47:49
And that keeps you going.
47:51
But we do, certainly when it comes to
47:53
our investigators and mental health, we take that
47:55
incredibly seriously.
47:56
We have a support system for not just
47:59
our investigators, but all kinds of people doing
48:01
investigations in the field.
48:03
Because as I say, when you're actually living
48:05
in it, you think it's bad to watch
48:07
it when you're actually having to work in
48:09
it.
48:10
That's a whole nother level, which I just
48:11
can't imagine.
48:12
I've never done it myself.
48:13
So we take it incredibly seriously, the mental
48:15
health side and preparing people for it and
48:19
then giving them the resources, the support system.
48:22
So yeah, it's nasty stuff, but it happens.
48:26
And if you really want to end it,
48:29
if you don't want to see it, then
48:30
you've got to work to prevent it from
48:32
happening because otherwise you're just burying your head
48:34
in the sand.
48:35
So we appreciate, it's not for everybody.
48:38
We just appreciate any elements of support.
48:41
If it's not something that you can watch,
48:43
then hopefully you can help us by signing
48:45
those petitions, by donating and by having your
48:48
say at council meetings and things like that.
48:51
I think the heroes of our movement, the
48:53
real heroes of our movement are those who
48:56
go undercover.
48:58
I could tell you right now, I could
49:00
never do it.
49:01
It just takes a certain personality, a certain
49:04
level of bravery, grit and endurance.
49:08
And you have some of the top undercover
49:13
investigators in the animal rights movement.
49:16
Tell us about that.
49:18
Yeah, our investigations team has a combined experience
49:22
of about 16 years.
49:24
They actually train other investigators in the movement
49:26
through the International Investigator Training Programme and create
49:30
that support system.
49:32
So there are other fantastic investigators doing a
49:34
lot in the field.
49:35
But as you say, Animal Outlook, we started
49:37
doing this about 25 years ago, doing undercover
49:41
investigations, doing open rescues actually.
49:43
And we've just got such a great strategy,
49:47
which I was lucky enough to inherit from
49:48
my predecessor, Sheryl Leahy, who was at the
49:50
organisation for 18 years.
49:53
And there's just such a good strategy and
49:55
such a good structure in place that we
49:59
can do two or three of these undercover
50:01
investigations every year.
50:03
So we're in a lucky position to be
50:05
able to do it.
50:06
It's a privilege to work for animals.
50:07
It's a tough job, but it's one that
50:10
we feel has to be done.
50:14
And we're lucky enough to be able to
50:16
do it.
50:16
I think one of the statements being made
50:19
here by commentators who are watching on social
50:22
media really gets to the heart of the
50:24
matter.
50:25
What good are laws if they're not enforced?
50:28
California has passed, and I collected signatures years
50:32
ago.
50:33
I threw a party for Prop 2.
50:36
And Prop 12, I was so excited.
50:39
But if it's not enforced, and if the
50:42
laws against cruelty in San Francisco or in
50:46
LA or in San Diego or wherever in
50:49
California, we have some of the toughest laws,
50:51
but if they're not enforced, what's the point?
50:54
And Tom makes a very good, I think,
50:58
summary of the entire issue.
51:01
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
51:02
We have to enforce the law.
51:03
That's why we work really hard with judges,
51:06
with prosecutors to bring about enforcement of it.
51:10
It's just a matter of priority.
51:12
And I think you don't have to be
51:13
a lawyer or a judge or involved in
51:16
the legal system.
51:17
If you care about animals, you do have
51:20
to just put pressure on whomever you can,
51:23
be it the politicians, be it your local
51:25
representatives.
51:26
Get to know your city councillor.
51:28
Get to know your mayor.
51:30
These people at local government level, they're the
51:32
ones who can influence the legal system.
51:34
And if the prosecutors aren't taking action, then
51:37
they can get them out.
51:38
So wherever you are in your advocacy, get
51:42
to know your political representatives because you can
51:45
help create change at the ballot box.
51:47
Let's vote in the people who do care
51:49
about animals and let's replace the people in
51:51
positions of power who don't.
51:53
So there's lots of actions that we as
51:55
individuals can take if we're of the mind
51:58
to do so.
51:59
And you're a very positive person.
52:02
Everybody's saying, wow, great, your optimism.
52:05
Sometimes I'm not as optimistic.
52:07
And what really got me was we just
52:12
went through a pandemic.
52:13
Now we're looking at a possible pandemic.
52:16
And I'm not the one saying that.
52:18
I'm not a scientist.
52:20
The New York Times has said bird flu
52:22
is entering a new phase.
52:25
It's not that a pandemic is inevitable, but
52:28
it says right at the bottom, the possibility
52:30
is no longer remote.
52:32
Okay, that's all the news that's fit to
52:34
print.
52:35
It seems like we don't learn from our
52:37
past mistakes.
52:38
As you said, whether it started in the
52:41
Wuhan market where they were torturing animals and
52:44
chopping them up as every live market and
52:47
keeping them in cramped conditions where disease can
52:49
spread, or they were torturing animals in experimentations
52:53
at the Wuhan lab.
52:54
Animal abuse was at the heart of that
52:56
pandemic and animal abuse will be at the
53:00
heart of a next pandemic.
53:01
God forbid, I don't wanna see it if
53:04
it happens.
53:05
It seems like humans are not learning the
53:10
key lesson.
53:12
And it's groupthink, groupthink that allows people to
53:17
say, I'm just not gonna connect the dots.
53:20
The powers that be aren't connecting the dots.
53:22
The media is not connecting the dots.
53:25
The government isn't connecting the dots.
53:28
The government is not even acknowledging, and I'm
53:31
talking about bipartisan, not acknowledging the impact of
53:34
animal agriculture on the climate.
53:37
Even though way back in 2008, the United
53:40
Nations said that animal agriculture is responsible for
53:42
more greenhouse gas emissions than all transportation combined.
53:47
Nobody's talking about it.
53:49
The UN COP conferences, they don't talk about
53:52
it.
53:53
So I guess our final thoughts, your final
54:00
thought before we wrap up, sorry.
54:03
No, how do you stay positive knowing that
54:05
there's such a massive industry and inertia against
54:07
you?
54:08
I just think because we all know, I'm
54:10
sure everyone watching your show knows deep down
54:13
that we're on the side of right.
54:15
So if all of us know that it's
54:17
right, then it doesn't matter who you are.
54:21
You just have to be convinced.
54:22
You have to be shown the right thing,
54:24
whether it's a documentary or a particular health
54:25
fact or a particular statistic, it could be.
54:32
I've known so many people whose vegan origin
54:34
stories starts in a strange way from a
54:37
book they read or a leaflet they got
54:39
or a friend they spoke to or a
54:40
meal they had.
54:41
So I think there's just so many opportunities
54:43
to create more vegans in this world.
54:46
And then once we hit a threshold of
54:48
people who care, whose knowledge, and one of
54:51
the reasons I'm so optimistic as well, information
54:54
has never been more available.
54:56
We can now distribute our investigations or your
55:00
news programme can get picked up any part
55:02
of the planet.
55:03
So because we have that ability to get
55:05
out our vegan message, I just think there's
55:08
many, many opportunities to get to reach people
55:11
with this message.
55:12
And that's why I'm so positive about it.
55:15
I hope that we don't have to go
55:16
through another pandemic in order to reach it.
55:18
And history shows that we may not even
55:20
learn our lessons then, but if you think
55:23
about just the suffering of the animals, that's
55:24
as clear as day.
55:26
And for that reason, there's never been a
55:29
more important time to go vegan.
55:30
Well, we are out of time.
55:32
So excited to have you on.
55:34
Your work is absolutely extraordinary.
55:36
And of course, I always urge people, along
55:39
with supporting Animal Outlook, please support Unchained TV.
55:44
We are a 501c3 nonprofit.
55:47
Download us right on your phone or your
55:49
television set.
55:51
So it's a vegan Netflix.
55:52
Okay, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard.
55:54
I love Unchained TV.
55:56
Unchained, Unchained TV.
55:58
Your life will change.
55:59
It's just that easy.
56:00
Unchained TV has all sorts of content for
56:03
everybody.
56:03
Unchained TV changed my life.
56:06
Unchained TV is crushing it.
56:09
I love Unchained TV.
56:11
Unchained TV is my go-to.
56:13
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56:14
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