Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / Interview Only w/ Anthony Scaramucci - Why Trump Is Losing In Iran & Trying To Break The West

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Interview Only w/ Anthony Scaramucci - Why Trump Is Losing In Iran & Trying To Break The West · The Chuck ToddCast

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  Speaker 1: This episode of the Chuck Todd cast is brought to
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  Speaker 1: you by Chapter. Now, almost everything you hear about Medicare
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  Speaker 1: And then call chapter today at 980-734-4200. So joining me
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  Speaker 1: now is somebody I've known, uh, quite a long time
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  Speaker 1: and somebody that, uh, the more we get to know
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  Speaker 1: each other, the more we might actually describe each other
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  Speaker 1: as friends. It's Anthony Scaramucci. In the political world, he's
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  Speaker 1: known for his famous 11 days in the Trump administration.
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  Speaker 1: But in the finance world, I view him as somebody
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  Speaker 1: who's one of the few guys in finance who hasn't
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  Speaker 1: lost his mind and who's at least grounded. And I
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  Speaker 1: think that it is a fascinating detour from that the
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  Speaker 1: world's financial elite have taken. And there's so much to
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  Speaker 1: talk about these days. He's got a new book coming out.
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  Speaker 1: And at some point, we're going to talk about that,
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  Speaker 1: All the Wrong Moves, it is called. It will be
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  Speaker 1: coming out in September. But Anthony, the last time we
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  Speaker 1: saw each other was December 2025 in Abu Dhabi. It
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  Speaker 1: was an interview I was doing for Newsphere. And it
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  Speaker 1: was my first time to Abu Dhabi. And you gave
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  Speaker 1: some incredible, I remember what you said about about what
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  Speaker 1: you said about the UAE said, it's not necessarily a country.
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  Speaker 1: It's like you're visiting somebody's house.
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  Speaker 2: So I always say that to people, this is a,
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  Speaker 2: it's MB, it's MBZ's house, whether you like it or not.
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  Speaker 2: So it's, and again, if you remember some people were
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: filming drone strikes and they got in trouble for that,
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  Speaker 2: that would be like, you know, throwing, throwing mud at
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  Speaker 2: somebody's painting in the living room. You know, that that's
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  Speaker 2: how they view the things over there. But first of all,
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  Speaker 2: it's always great to see you. And I do consider
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  Speaker 2: us friends and, uh, And we've been through it, you
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  Speaker 2: and me. We've been through the ups and downs of
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  Speaker 2: life and politics and all the other things. But, you know,
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  Speaker 2: if we start in Abu Dhabi, We're literally 60 days
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  Speaker 2: after our talk and people have fled.
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  Speaker 1: When was the last time you were in the EUAE?
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  Speaker 2: So that was the last time. So I'm scheduled to
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  Speaker 2: go back in November. That's Abu Dhabi Finance Week. My
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  Speaker 2: conference business, SALT, we used to do a conference in
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  Speaker 2: Abu Dhabi prior to COVID. And then after COVID, the
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  Speaker 2: government asked us if we could merge our sort of
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: event programming into the government's event programming, which we agreed
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  Speaker 2: to do. And so we were running some programming for
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  Speaker 2: them inside of Abu Dhabi Finance Week. That's where I
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  Speaker 2: saw you at that very beautiful Four Seasons. But listen,
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  Speaker 2: At that time, you said to me, what is one
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  Speaker 2: of the safest places in the world? I say Abu Dhabi.
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  Speaker 2: You could leave your car keys on the dash, roll
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  Speaker 2: your windows down, unlock your doors, and that car will
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  Speaker 2: stay put forever. I mean, they have a very low
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  Speaker 2: crime rate. It's an amazing culture there, but they've been
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  Speaker 2: being attacked because they're one of the Western allies and
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  Speaker 2: one of the allies of the United States are being
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  Speaker 2: attacked as part of the Iranian-American-Israeli war. And I think
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  Speaker 2: it's hurt the economy. I think it's hurt the retail
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  Speaker 2: sector of the economy as well. It's hurt the expat
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  Speaker 2: economy there. But I'll say this about the UAE. They'll
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  Speaker 2: be back. They'll be back in force and size and scale.
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  Speaker 2: They really have a great business model there. And it's
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  Speaker 2: a beautiful country. And I intend to go back there
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  Speaker 2: in November as I have done the last five or
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  Speaker 2: six years.
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  Speaker 1: What kind of long-term damage do you think has been
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  Speaker 1: done between the relationship between the United States and the
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  Speaker 1: Gulf states? And I ask it because You know, the
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  Speaker 1: reason to have American military bases was for security. You know,
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  Speaker 1: that was thought of, it was an extra aspect of security.
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  Speaker 1: And General Barry McCaffrey, retired general, you know, said on
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  Speaker 1: social media over the weekend, we're taping here in the
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  Speaker 1: last week of August. He said over the weekend that
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  Speaker 1: he feared that we'll never, those American bases are never
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  Speaker 1: going to be there again. And that the American footprint
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  Speaker 1: in the Middle East, for better or for worse, is
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  Speaker 1: going to shrink. And I don't know whether that's good
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  Speaker 1: for global security, let alone American security, let alone Israeli security,
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  Speaker 1: if that's something, which of course is arguably the primary
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  Speaker 1: reason we had done this.
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  Speaker 2: Well, Chuck, I agree with him, but I would say
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  Speaker 2: it a little differently than him. I would say that
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  Speaker 2: America now has to face the reality of its military
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  Speaker 2: industrial complex. And so I think the Gulf War, this
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  Speaker 2: latest iteration of the Gulf War has proven that we're
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  Speaker 2: at a step with where warfare is right now. You
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  Speaker 2: probably read these things as I read them. The Ukrainians
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  Speaker 2: did some exercises with us in Texas. They demolished us.
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  Speaker 2: They figured out a way to use these drones. You know,
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  Speaker 2: you've got anywhere from $ 1, 500 to $ 2, 000 drones that have
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  Speaker 2: been technologically upgraded by the Ukrainians. They've stopped a couple
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  Speaker 2: million man army, the Russian army in Ukraine. We are
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  Speaker 2: not where we need to be. What's happened to us
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  Speaker 2: is there's a circuit. Eisenhower was right. Military industrial complex won.
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  Speaker 2: There's a circuit between the lobbying community, the defense contractors.
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  Speaker 2: the Senate, the presidency, the Pentagon. And that circuit is
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  Speaker 2: we're making military materiel that's perhaps already obsolete, but we're
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  Speaker 2: doing it anyway. And so we've exposed that seam. So
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  Speaker 2: I predict we'll have a smaller footprint. It'll be a
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  Speaker 2: different footprint. And I predict that the Iranians are going
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  Speaker 2: to be closer to their Sunni neighbors. That's the irony
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  Speaker 2: of what happened, because they said, hey, if you bomb us,
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  Speaker 2: we're going to close the Strait of Hormuz. President didn't care.
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  Speaker 2: They bombed them. They closed the Strait of Hormuz. I
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  Speaker 2: think the president was vexed by the Mosaic Defense Doctrine.
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  Speaker 2: And so if you don't mind, you know what it is,
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  Speaker 2: but I'm going to repeat it just quickly. No, you should. Please.
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  Speaker 2: I did not know what it was until I got
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  Speaker 2: to the White House in 2017. It was in the
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  Speaker 2: Presidential Daily Brief. It's public, so it's not like I'm
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  Speaker 2: sharing confidential information. But the Iranians basically looked at us
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  Speaker 2: over 20 plus years in the Middle East and said, OK,
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  Speaker 2: if the Americans come for us, it's going to be
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  Speaker 2: a decapitation strike. That's what the Israelis are famous for.
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  Speaker 2: If the Americans team up with the Israelis, they're going
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  Speaker 2: to try to decapitate us. So how do we protect
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  Speaker 2: us from that? And the Iranians came up with the
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  Speaker 2: Mosaic Defense Structure, where they had 31 separately autonomous units,
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  Speaker 2: nine layers deep. If you looked at the depth chart,
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  Speaker 2: nine layers deep. So if you killed the first group
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  Speaker 2: of leaders, other guys stepped in. You killed those guys,
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  Speaker 2: no problem. Another group stepped in. And they were operating semi-autonomously,
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  Speaker 2: which is why in negotiations, the president was vexed in
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  Speaker 2: the negotiations because certain people were willing to negotiate in Iran.
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  Speaker 2: Other people were not. And so the Iranians have done
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  Speaker 2: exactly what they said that they would do. Implement the
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  Speaker 2: Mosaic Defense Doctrine, close the Strait of Hormuz, hit our allies,
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  Speaker 2: and Hit our military installations. Again, the American press doesn't
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  Speaker 2: report this as accurately as they should, but our naval
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  Speaker 2: supply depots in Kuwait and Bahrain have been decimated.
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  Speaker 1: Well, that's why the Lincoln was in the desperate straits
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  Speaker 1: that it was. We had no ability to with what
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  Speaker 1: should have been. Essentially locally sourced ability to resupply. They
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  Speaker 1: were resupplying from Diego Garcia, which.
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  Speaker 2: Is a British territory, 2,200 miles away. So you had
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  Speaker 2: three-day resupply turned to 10%. and in some cases, 12-day resupply.
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  Speaker 2: And that caused an absolute catastrophe. Of course, the president's
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  Speaker 2: response to that and Exet's response was to fire the
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  Speaker 2: editor-in-chief and two of the reporters of the Stars and
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: Stripes because they know how to count. And they're trying
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  Speaker 2: to tell you what's going on in the area as
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  Speaker 2: they have been licensed. Imagine Eisenhower doing that or somebody
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  Speaker 2: like even MacArthur doing that. They didn't even do that.
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  Speaker 1: I can't get over the last 25 years of defense budgets, right?
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  Speaker 1: 9-11 happens and we think, okay, we're dealing with an
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  Speaker 1: asymmetric enemy, stateless enemies now. So there was at least rhetorically,
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  Speaker 1: A mindset of, hey, we've got to, you know, we've
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  Speaker 1: got to shift gears, right? We've got to get out
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  Speaker 1: of the Cold War mindset. We've got to get out
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  Speaker 1: of this. And yet over 25 years, we never did. And,
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  Speaker 1: you know, there's two ways you can look at American
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: military might over the last 50 years, essentially our entire lifetimes, Anthony.
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  Speaker 1: We've arguably only won one war. And that was the
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  Speaker 1: first Gulf War. where we had a goal and we
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  Speaker 1: met it, right? Get Saddam out of Kuwait. We achieved
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  Speaker 1: the goal, we walked away. I do think 50 years
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  Speaker 1: from now, the Iraq war and the second Iraq war
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  Speaker 1: and this Iran war will probably get conflated to America's
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  Speaker 1: missteps in the Middle East. It'll be seen as an
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  Speaker 1: entire era, the irony of that, and that Trump arguably
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  Speaker 1: took over the Republican Party by repudiating the Bush foreign policy.
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  Speaker 1: And he, of course, ends up doing a version of
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  Speaker 1: it very poorly.
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  Speaker 2: But let's talk about.
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  Speaker 1: The defense industry. I mean, to me, the Pentagon, what
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: you just described, that sort of loop of the military
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  Speaker 1: industrial complex earlier, that's what's broken. More than anything else,
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  Speaker 1: that is what's broken. And I, for the life of me,
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  Speaker 1: can't figure out how to get Washington to focus on that.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, there's a big thing here. And I'll
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: send you an op-ed that I put on Substack. It's
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  Speaker 2: basically an open letter to these guys. I'll take everybody
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  Speaker 2: back to January 17, 1961, the farewell address of Dwight Eisenhower.
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  Speaker 2: And he had gravitas. He was the five-star general that
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  Speaker 2: led us in Europe and the Normandy invasion, etc., He said, listen,
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  Speaker 2: eight years here in the presidency, there's a feedback loop
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  Speaker 2: between the lobbyists, the military defense contractors. And if we're
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: not careful, they're going to take over and they're going
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  Speaker 2: to bleed us out. And so they've been doing that.
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  Speaker 2: And I think you have to remember, when we had
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: a supposed peace dividend, the government allowed a consolidation of
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: defense industry suppliers. We went from 51% separate and disparate
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: defense industries, suppliers to the big five.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you bring that up. It's a nightmare. I
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: think the reason why people are afraid to fly Boeing
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: planes is because of this consolidation over time and all
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: of these aspects. I mean, look, that's not directly about
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: the military, but Boeing cares more about its defense contracts
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: than it does making good passenger airplanes these days.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, there's definitely truth to that. When they
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: started merging into other things like McDonnell Douglas, they let
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: their safety standards lax. And there was tremendous layers of
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: bureaucracy that they've had to clean up since the 737 incidences.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: But here's what I would say. You have five players
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: that act like a monopoly cartel. So the prices are
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: sky high. The attempt to do multiple bid contracts have
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: been reduced. And they are taking advantage of Citizens United,
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: something you and I know a lot about. And so
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: Supreme Court rendered in January of 2010, unlimited amount of
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: money can go into the political system. And we are
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: nine to one from January of 2010, 16 and a
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: half years later, Chuck. We're spending nine to one, and
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: guess what's happening? Big business, big pharma, big defense, they're
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: all getting what they want from the Congress. The big,
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: beautiful spending bill is elemental of that. Those guys got
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: breaks in it, corporate welfare, tax cuts, and the little
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: guy got screwed. This is a very big problem. We
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: are in desperate need of systemic reform. You've just got
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: a lot of contracts out there where people are like, okay,
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: We're going to renew the contract because it's in my district.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: We're going to renew the contract because it's in my state.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: But wait a minute. That contract is obsolete. You're going
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: to shoot a $ 2 million missile at a $ 50, 000 drone.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: It doesn't make economic sense anymore, but we're doing it,
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: and we're in this sort of feedback loop that we
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: can't break. And so it's a huge problem, Chuck. And remember,
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: I was on the business executives for national security before
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: I joined President Trump's administration.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: He promised to do something about it. When we sat
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: around in 2016, we had these discussions. He promised to
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: do something about it. He's made it worse. He fired
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: John Fallon. I don't know if you remember Fallon. He's
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: a former Wall Street guy. He's Naval Secretary. One of
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: Fallon's private complaints was they wanted to build battleships, which
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: are obsolete. We don't need those anymore. Trump thinks we're
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: in the 1940s. He wants a battleship. They told Phelan, well,
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: let's just go with a single bid contract. Phelan said,
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: wait a minute, that's actually illegal. I can't do that.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: And so Hegseth fired him. And this is the sort
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: of stuff that's going on inside the military. And I
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: got to tell you, we've embarrassed ourselves. We've exposed ourselves.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: And we've embarrassed ourselves in this war. So said differently,
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: we spent a trillion dollars, but we run out of munitions.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: After five months. I mean, that's sort of unconscionable. So
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: now our adversaries are looking at, OK, wait a minute,
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: I'm a middle power. U.S. is a much bigger economy
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: than me, bigger military. But they've got it so screwed up.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: It's got so many layers of pork barrel spending in
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: it that I could probably beat these guys if I'm
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: a little swifter on my feet as it relates to
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: my military technology.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: Or go the other way. We're going to pivot to
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: Canada here in a minute, but it's not just Canada,
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: but the middle powers in general. The reason to do
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: a deal with the United States, you're like, well, They're
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: the military. They're going to have our back. They're our
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: security agreement. They're not just a financial arrangement. They're a
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: security arrangement. Well, if the United States can't protect its own,
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: how are we going to protect our allies? To me,
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: what's happened to the Gulf states has sent a message
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: to everybody that has a security agreement with the United States.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: Good luck.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: Well, listen, I agree with that. Listen, I'm a realist,
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: so there will always be those states will have a
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: relationship with the US. There'll be some arms purchases, and
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: there'll be commercial activity, and they do need- That, I think,
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: economic relationship. I think the burden sharing of these bases, though,
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: I think those states will look around and say, well,
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: wait a minute. We probably haven't. It didn't work. It
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: was a paper tiger for us. We thought it was
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: going to be a little bit more of a shield
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: for us. It turns out that it isn't. And I
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: think you'll see those states, frankly, draw more lines across
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: the Persian Gulf or the Arabian Gulf into Tehran, because
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: their attitude is, look at what the Chinese did a
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: few years ago with the Saudis and the Iranians. They
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: were trying to bring them closer. If you remember, they
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: bridged a peace deal and some level of understanding there
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: prior to the war. And I think they're going to
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: want more of that, not less of it. There has
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: been discussion. I'm not saying this is going to come
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: to pass, but there has been a discussion where the Saudis,
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: the Turks, and the Iranians team up in a mutual
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: defense contract. I'm not saying that's going to happen. But
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: the notion that people are talking about that versus where
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: we were even six or 12 months ago, I think
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: is actually unthinkable. So listen, the world will change again.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: I guess my message to my fellow Americans that are
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: listening in, we are so much better than this. I mean,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: we've got a bunch of stupid people, frankly, that are
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: running these processes, and the country is not stupid. So
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: we have to clean this up, and we have to
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: get to people that are willing to embrace the reality
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: of the situation and get some reform done. But by
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: the way, the minute you say that, you know, these lobbyists, man,
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: they come at you, they start shooting, you know, you know,
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: the word. Yeah, I'm not convinced that either party.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: Is going to be able to do what we need.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: It's going to have to come from a third or
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: fourth party.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: Let's say Chuck Todd declares his candidacy for the presidency,
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: which we would do way better with Chuck Todd than
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: we would with these current clowns. But let's say you
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: declared yourself for the presidency and it looked like you
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: were doing well, and you were doing well with a
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: reform message. These guys would come out and they would
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: disembowel you. They would find every single thing about your life.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: They would try to disfigure you, turn you into a
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: two-dimensional caricature of yourself because they want this gravy train
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: to exist. And this is always what happens with parasitic activity.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: The parasite depletes the host to the point where the
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: host dies, and then it hurts the parasite. So my
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: message to these guys is, hey, guys, why don't we
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: knock it off at this point? This is not working. And,
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: you know, I know we're in a race for somebody
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: to get to a trillion dollars, but I would just
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: submit to you, your fellow neighbors are suffering. Are you
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: really of that great wealth if you're living in a
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: barbed wire McMansion with security while your fellow neighbors are suffering?
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: So I would ask these people to reconsider this, actually.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: Hey, this episode of the Chuck Todd cast is brought
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• 21:59
  Speaker 1: of 2026. Meanwhile, one of the stories that didn't bite
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: so far with this war is that as much as
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: the rising cost of energy has created financial pressures globally.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: There's no doubt about it. It has not triggered a
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: global recession. And part of that reason is China decided
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: not to consume. And China had a stockpile of oil
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: that perhaps we underestimated, and certainly the markets underestimated. And
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: it certainly sent a message to me that said, oh,
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: is China now more powerful than OPEC when it comes
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: to the oil markets? What do you.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: Make of that?
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: And I'm impressed with what China thought about here, right?
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: China could have weakened us by letting this global recession happen.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: But instead, they said, you know what? Our two biggest
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: markets are North America and Europe. And we probably will
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: also feel pain if a recession is triggered. And we
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: rely too much on exports. We have our own economic.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: It was an interesting strategic decision that the Chinese made here.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: And it is both impressive and scary if you're sitting
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: here as the United States.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: Well, again, they have 50-year plans. They have 100-year plans.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: You can go to plan 2049, which is the 100th
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: anniversary of the Maoist revolution. And they'll tell you how
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: many rail cars they're going to have, how many maglev
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: trains they're going to have. They're going to tell you
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: how much infrastructure they're going to build, how much Wi-Fi
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: is going to be in the entire country of China.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: So to me, we don't do that. We have four-minute
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: soundbites on TV. We have two-year And four and six
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: year plans. We don't have 25 year plans. And, you know,
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: they are benefiting from that in terms of the planning.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: But where they're weakening actually is in terms of the
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: processes related to freedom. And so one of the great
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: things that we have, which makes us neurally plastic, is
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: the First Amendment. My big fight with Trump actually started
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: in 2019, two years after I was fired. I was
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: still loyal to the president, but where it started with
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: me is I wrote an op-ed saying that the press
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: is not the enemy of the people, Chuck. I said,
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: not only does the press check power, it teaches creativity.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: If you teach a second grader that they can speak
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: and think freely, they go on and create Facebook. They
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: go on and create Google. The Chinese are at a
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: great disadvantage to us because of that, because they have
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: to steal our intellectual property. They're curbing their citizens' ability
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: to think creatively. And so we still have an advantage
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: over them. If we can get back to some kind
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: of organized process and some bipartisanship and some long-term thinking,
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: because this is an incredibly entrepreneurial group of people in
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: the U.S. We learned in the first stages of the
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: Iranian war that our AI technology, from a math perspective
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: and from a military strategic planning perspective- is way more
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: advanced than the Chinese technology. If you're making the point
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: that they had more in reserve and they're better planners
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: than we are, they certainly are. If you're making the
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: point that they're long-term thinkers, why force us into a
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: recession right now where they need to continue to urbanize
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: and migrate people from, indigent people from farms into middle-class living?
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: which has been their goal for the last 45 years,
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: 47 years since 1979. That's all well said and done.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: I agree with all of that. But I don't think China...
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: If you really study China, it's seven balkanized provinces that
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: are glued together by the 110 million people of the
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: 1.4 billion that are in the Chinese Communist Party. So, yes,
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: they're doing well in some ways. But in other ways,
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: we continue to outmatch them because of our flexibility and
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: our innovation. Where we're screwed up is we're letting this
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: gerontocracy run the politics of the country. That's where we're
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: screwed up. We've got a group of aging baby boomers
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: that have overpromised, they've overspent, and they've undertaxed relative to
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: the overspent. Now, the great irony of everything that I
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: just said, it's fixable. It is. It's totally fixable, but
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: it would require a return to the PAYGO laws that
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: you and I are familiar with in the 1990s. It
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: would require us to have some discipline in the budgetary
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: process around the Pentagon. The Pentagon says they have $ 4. 5
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: trillion worth of materiel. They have yet to pass an audit.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: So we don't know if it exists or it doesn't exist.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: And they've yet to pass an audit. And nobody in
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: the Congress, nobody in the executive branch of the United
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: States is holding them accountable. because their beds are being
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: feathered by defense contractors and by lobbyists. So guys, what
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: do you want to do? We know we're in trouble.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: We understand why we're in trouble. We can fix why
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: we're in trouble. But you guys are fraidy cats. You
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: would rather stay in power and indulge yourselves personally than
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: serve the public.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Is Mark Carney the leader of the West right now?
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: I think he is. I put that out on, I
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: put that out, it was the first thing I put
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: out on Twitter over the weekend. He is the leader
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: of the West, a very well-educated man. You know, I
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: have a personal relationship with Mark that goes back 30 years.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: We were at Goldman Sachs together. We were on the
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: financial services board together at the World Economic Forum. I
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: interviewed Mark when he was going, Alistair Campbell and I
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: interviewed Mark when he was in the primary versus Christian Friedland.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: to ascend to the prime ministership. And Mark Carney understands
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: the reality of Donald Trump. Donald Trump wants to sever
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: the United States from the West. You can pretend otherwise.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: He's done everything that he possibly can with the constraint
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: of the Congress and the State Department.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: It's the one thing he's consistent about. He's inconsistent about
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: so many things. Not on this.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: No, he wants to sever the relationship. 100%. He acts
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: like everyone's taking advantage of us when you can prove
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: economically no one is taking advantage of us. This is
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: a Vladimir Putin dogma. I'm not saying the president is
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: an agent to Vladimir Putin, but if he was, he
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: would have to get an A +. in terms of
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: what he's doing, in terms of creating the divide in
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: the West. And so now this is our closest ally.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: We have no military on one of the longest borders
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: in the world. By far our closest ally, by far
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: the one that we do the most business with. And
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: he wants to hurt them. For some reason, he's decided
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: that he wants to- I.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: Thought this was a Trudeau thing. I really did think
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: it was somewhat, everything with Trump sometimes is more personal
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: than anything else. And I thought his initial sort of
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: anger and all that stuff was, and look, was Trudeau
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: enjoying that moment, enjoying sort of being that? There's no doubt.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: And I think there's a reason Canadians soured on him.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: And there's a reason the Canadians wanted, look to a
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: guy like Carney, doesn't surprise me in any way, but
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: I thought maybe that that that replacing Trudeau would would
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: stop would sort of would. would have Trump pull back
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: a little bit on this.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Personal- Well, you have to remember, this is a little,
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: I'm going to give you a Chris Christie analogy here, okay?
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: So Chris, a rough and tumble guy, and his rough
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: and tumble aides thought that it was a good idea
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: to shut down the George Washington Bridge. So whether Chris
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: had anything to do with it or not, it was
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: a leadership issue that was, you know, the subordinates were
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: trying to please the leader. So Jameson Greer had a
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: deal done middle of last week, so much so that
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump tweeted out that he had a deal done.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: He was pausing all this and pausing all that. And
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: then in comes Howard Lutnick trying to please the leader. OK,
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: and he wants to fight with Mark Carney over bilingual
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: packaging on cornflakes. So the great irony is this thing
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: stalled not on steel, but it stalled on whether or
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: not we should have French and English language.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: On cornflakes.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: And so you have to understand Carney and his personality.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: I call this the Quebec clause. Once they put in
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: the Quebec clause, okay, Carney looked around and said, this
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: is fantastic for me because, you know.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: As long as you don't, they've been fighting.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: About potential separatism of Quebec. And now Carney's like, well,
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: I'm here to defend Quebec and their culture and our sovereignty.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: The guy's got a 67% public approval rating in his
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: own country. So there's been nobody that has been more
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: valuable to Mark Carney's political career than Donald Trump. He's
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: galvanized the country. So what do you got going on?
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: You got falling tourism numbers, a boycott of our liquor
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: and our spirits and wine, and you got the Canadians
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: super angry with the Americans in a way that's completely
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: nonsensical and unnecessary. But that's Donald Trump and his minions.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: But I actually even think in this one, Trump is
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: actually was caught off guard by this, because if you
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: if you look at his response over the weekend, it
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: was quite tepid. He just thought it was a negotiating.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: I'm guessing he thought. Maybe this is a negotiating ploy
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: and assume that everything would get worked out.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but he's locked and loaded a little bit more
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: desperately this morning. But I'll predict here on your program
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: that this gets resolved inside of the next two weeks.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: The reason why Carney put out September the 8th.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, I was just going to say he was buying time.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: No, I. Let me ask you this about Mark Carney, because,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: you know, Carney did something interesting, right? He sort of.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: He sort of pulled back from the cultural left a
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: little bit during his campaign, sort of reshifted things. And look,
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: in some ways, Trump was a perfect vessel for him
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: to do this. Hey, look, we've got to deal with
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: our neighbors to the south.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: This is not a.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: Time to divide ourselves on issues that are certainly important,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: but they're not front and center at the moment. It
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: in some ways reminded me of what Democrats did with Biden.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: But of course, Biden ended up not being a success.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: No matter what you think of his presidency, Trump's return
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: means it was a failure, right? There's no other way
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: to look at Biden's presidency other than a complete failure
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: because Trump came back. And so is the Carney path
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: still there for the Democrats, do you think? Or do
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: you think because of the Biden failure, that even though
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: this Carney path looks successful in the North, maybe- You know,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: the Democrats feel too burned on the left from from
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: their Biden experience.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to say that the Carney path is
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: not a path for the Democrats because they're at war
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: with each other. I I would say this. If Mark
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: Carney was an American citizen, he would likely be the
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: Democratic Party front runner because he's a winner. And I
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: think they would probably capitulate to him and his sort
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: of technocratic charisma to try to get back to the presidency.
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: But the problem with the Democrats, let me tell you
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: who leads the Democratic Party right now. And that's Donald J. Trump.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: If someone said to me in a trivia question, who
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: leads the Democratic Party? Donald J. Trump. What are you
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: talking about, Anthony? Well, he is the white cue ball.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: at the end of the billiard table that smashes into
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: the Democrats and has them going in every which direction.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: They hate on each other. They fight with each other
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: over the culture. Everyone's looking for a pure form of
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: socialism or even a strike at communism. And Trump is
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: laughing at them. You that I find unbelievable, actually. And
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: so they have no galvanizing coalition building figure. Barack Obama
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: built a coalition. What was interesting about Obama's campaign in 2008,
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: and you've written about this, I'm sort of plagiarizing from you,
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: is that he built a coalition away from the Democratic establishment.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: The Democratic establishment was owned by the Clintons. And so
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: he said, OK, I got to go after independent voters.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: I got to go after non-voters, younger people. And I've
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: got to build this coalition. You know who's a coalition builder?
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: It's Donald Trump.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: That's right. He couldn't win inside the establishment of the
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: Republican Party. Of course.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: The coalition is splintering now, but he is a coalition builder.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: You can't pretend otherwise. That's how you get to the presidency.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: So you'd have to name the people in the Democratic
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: Party that are running for president. And my reaction to
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: each one of those people, despite their strengths and weaknesses,
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: I don't see the coalition builder. You know, the hard
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: left hates Newsom. They treat him like he's Ronald Reagan,
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: I think. I mean, they hate him.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: No, and Newsom is one of these. He's in such
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: an impossible position because he's the pro-business Democrat in California. Right.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: But he's to the left of Gretchen Whitmer. And so
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: he just can't play in the Midwest. He just can't.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: Well, not only that, let me tell you something about
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: the conservatives. Don't underestimate the conservatives in terms of their
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: assassination of character. They looked at Hillary Clinton in 1993
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: and said, holy, we got to go after her. They
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: spent three decades going after her. So when she ran
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: for president, there were very high negative ratings of her.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: Fox News spends an hour a night on Gavin Newsom.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: Gavin Newsom is a tall, attractive guy that's running, if
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: you take it outside of the United States, the fourth
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: largest economy in the world. And as he's proven, this
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: article came out last week, there are more startup activity
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: in California than Florida and Texas combined. OK, but Gavin
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: Newsom has been pilloried. for at least a decade by
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: the conservative media. So when he starts his presidential run,
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: assuming he's going for the presidency, he has that negative.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: In other words, he is the most formidable guy to
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: the right, as Hillary Clinton was to them. And they're
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: good at character assassination.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: They are. Yeah, I just– look, we– Californian Democrats have struggled.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: Going to be hard, Chuck. But I don't see the
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: coalition builder there. And by the way, this is the
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: same problem for the Republicans. This is why– This is
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: an interesting deus ex machina sort of a campaign. Somebody
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: from the outside could enter the race, a business leader.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: We're going to see somebody. Maybe multiple somebodies.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: Somebody's going to enter the race and say, hey, this sucks.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: I'm going to try to help you fix it. Let
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: me at least prescribe what's wrong with the country and
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: how we can fix it. And who the hell knows?
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: It's such an anti-incumbency environment, Chuck, that we may end
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: up with somebody outside the mix.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: I'm more convinced our next president is not going to
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: be somebody that has Washington experience at a minimum. That's
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: for sure. Well, I would love to do more with you, Anthony.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: All right. We'll find the time. You're the man.