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The Intel With Greg Cosell: Sonny Styles' Eye-Popping Athleticism Emblematic Of NFL Draft LB Class · Inside the Birds: A Philadelphia Eagles Podcast

0:07
Speaker 1: Hello, Welcome back to the Intel with Greg Cosell on
0:10
Speaker 1: the inside the Birds platform. I'm Jeff Mosher with Adam
0:14
Speaker 1: Kaplan and we've got Greg Cosell as he continues to
0:17
Speaker 1: break down NFL draft prospects by position for the twenty
0:22
Speaker 1: twenty six NFL Draft, and we're starting to come to
0:24
Speaker 1: the end of the series. We're moving on to off
0:27
Speaker 1: ball linebackers. These are linebackers who can play either off
0:32
Speaker 1: the ball in a three to four scheme or you know,
0:35
Speaker 1: middle linebacker, outside linebacker in a four to three scheme.
0:38
Speaker 1: But the key is they play off the ball. Could
0:41
Speaker 1: they line up on the edge. Perhaps Zach Bawd does
0:43
Speaker 1: that for the Eagles, but basically he is an off
0:45
Speaker 1: ball linebacker. And we will go through the college crop
0:49
Speaker 1: of them and Greg will break them down as he
0:50
Speaker 1: does for everybody. So Greg, we throw it to you.
0:53
Speaker 1: We always ask you kind of a question. You know
0:56
Speaker 1: this is a weird position. Yeah, we do. This is
0:58
Speaker 1: a weird one because of positional value, where a lot
1:02
Speaker 1: of teams, no matter how good a player is at
1:05
Speaker 1: this spot, just doesn't value. I mean, the Eagles, for
1:08
Speaker 1: the first time in decades, took one last year at
1:10
Speaker 1: the bottom of the first round. So when you're watching tape,
1:15
Speaker 1: and I know in your mind, even though you don't
1:18
Speaker 1: do mock drafts, you wonder where guys might go or
1:20
Speaker 1: whatever you do. But this is probably hard because some
1:23
Speaker 1: of the best ones don't go in the top ten
1:25
Speaker 1: to twelve.
1:25
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's interesting, Jeff, and you obviously mentioned
1:27
Speaker 2: the Eagles, and I know for a fact that if
1:31
Speaker 2: you spoke to Vic Fango, he would tell you that
1:33
Speaker 2: off ball linebackers are really important to his defense. I mean,
1:37
Speaker 2: we see what Zach Bond has done the last two years.
1:40
Speaker 2: We saw what happened when Nikobe Dean came back this
1:42
Speaker 2: year and he immediately was reinserted into the lineup, and
1:45
Speaker 2: how important that was. I think with the sort of
1:49
Speaker 2: proliferation of the Vic Fangjo school of defensive coaches in
1:53
Speaker 2: the league, I think that the off ball linebacker position,
1:56
Speaker 2: and again I'm not suggesting you're going to see five
1:58
Speaker 2: caken in the first round, believe me, but I think
2:01
Speaker 2: it's a little more important than we've historically we've thought.
2:06
Speaker 2: I think that that those coaches believe because of what
2:09
Speaker 2: those linebackers are asked to do in the context of
2:13
Speaker 2: that philosophy of defense, that the position is not and
2:17
Speaker 2: no coach would say a position is a throwaway, but
2:20
Speaker 2: that it would be not be considered a value in
2:22
Speaker 2: a draft. Now again, like I said, that doesn't mean
2:25
Speaker 2: you're going to see a ton of them taken, but
2:27
Speaker 2: I think it's it's an increasingly important position. I mean,
2:30
Speaker 2: like I said, look what Zach Bond's done, and he's
2:33
Speaker 2: not even been used as a big blitzer. People immediately think, oh,
2:35
Speaker 2: that means a guy's gonna blitz a lot. But that's
2:39
Speaker 2: not the way it is with a team like the
2:40
Speaker 2: Eagles and other teams that that sort of have that
2:43
Speaker 2: same you know, Tanjoe philosophy.
2:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember, Adam, I was just gonna say real quick.
2:49
Speaker 1: For years, when you and I have had this discussion,
2:52
Speaker 1: we've talked about the Steelers and the Ravens. They're the
2:55
Speaker 1: two franchises that never seem to shy away from from
2:58
Speaker 1: doing that, but everybody else it seemingly. But as Greg
3:01
Speaker 1: is saying, you're starting to see a little bit more
3:03
Speaker 1: like the Lions did a couple of years ago.
3:05
Speaker 2: There, Jack Campbell, and I mean, obviously the Lions have
3:09
Speaker 2: not made a Super Bowl, but look, they had Campbell
3:11
Speaker 2: now Angelone, he's not there anymore. He signed I believe
3:14
Speaker 2: with Jacksonville, if memory serves me. But but you know,
3:17
Speaker 2: obviously very very good stacked players. I mean, look at
3:21
Speaker 2: the forty nine ers. Not not a fan Joe scheme,
3:24
Speaker 2: but you know, I think they would tell you that
3:26
Speaker 2: Fred Warner is pretty important. So you know, obviously it
3:30
Speaker 2: depends who it is. But I think that schematically, if
3:33
Speaker 2: that if you can be really good at that position,
3:36
Speaker 2: it can allow you to do a lot of different things.
3:38
Speaker 3: Right, So what I was going to say is Jack
3:40
Speaker 3: Kemill is where I was going to go. But if
3:41
Speaker 3: you look at that draft, I remember talking to Lions
3:43
Speaker 3: after and I'm like, wow, you guys took a running
3:45
Speaker 3: back in the first round, Jremior Gibbs. Okay, that was
3:47
Speaker 3: a great decision. You took an inside backer. These guys
3:50
Speaker 3: play thirty four then under Aaron GLENNI is now the
3:52
Speaker 3: head coach of the Jets. And the way he explained
3:55
Speaker 3: to me, give us Gibbs in terms of talent, they
3:57
Speaker 3: thought he was elite. They were right, but they thought
4:00
Speaker 3: with Jack Campbell, Jeff, this is where you gotta you
4:02
Speaker 3: gotta look at the Macro. It's not just that he's
4:05
Speaker 3: a terrific inside backer. They looked at leadership ironically, like
4:09
Speaker 3: who's on their sort of advisory staff, Rick Rick Bilan's brother,
4:15
Speaker 3: our friend Chris Bilden. Chris Bilden was a big time,
4:18
Speaker 3: big time, big time linebacker, big time tackler. Leadership, there
4:22
Speaker 3: are some intangibles, because you're right to bring up that.
4:26
Speaker 3: If you look at the Ravens and the money, the resources,
4:29
Speaker 3: the draft picks, the money, Ray Kwan Smith making the
4:32
Speaker 3: highs of paid inside backer in NFL history at one point,
4:35
Speaker 3: some teams believe in it. Some teams don't. As we
4:38
Speaker 3: sent it back to the Eagles, though historically they haven't.
4:41
Speaker 3: Who knew they didn't? They didn't. They didn't make it.
4:43
Speaker 3: They didn't sign Zach Bonn to play inside backer. Vic
4:45
Speaker 3: Fangio got him. He goes, wait a minute, Hang on
4:47
Speaker 3: a second, I don't see that. I see this, you know, yeah,
4:51
Speaker 3: John Campbell, Okay, now how he how he thought? I
4:55
Speaker 3: remember he said after the draft, we kind of see
4:57
Speaker 3: him as a guy who's got major ups or whatever
5:00
Speaker 3: tight at whatever words he used verbiage. We see him
5:03
Speaker 3: with a lot of upside as an edge rusher. Now
5:06
Speaker 3: he's playing inside backer, as Vic says, he calls him
5:09
Speaker 3: inside backers by the way, so correct. The value is
5:11
Speaker 3: by the team, to be honest with you, you know.
5:14
Speaker 2: And the other thing I remember, and he's not talked
5:16
Speaker 2: about a lot because of other players on the team,
5:19
Speaker 2: but I heard quotes by Mike McDonald where he said
5:22
Speaker 2: that Ernest Jones is the absolute key to their defense, right.
5:26
Speaker 2: You know, he might not be a household name, maybe
5:28
Speaker 2: more so because they won a Super Bowl, but normally
5:30
Speaker 2: not just a household name, you know. So you know,
5:33
Speaker 2: I think that it's it's team and scheme specific, and
5:37
Speaker 2: you know, getting to this draft obviously it doesn't mean
5:39
Speaker 2: that there's going to be a lot taken early and
5:41
Speaker 2: never know how this draft's going to play out. But
5:43
Speaker 2: I think the position, you know, it always comes back
5:47
Speaker 2: to me to when Steve Spagnol spent that year coming
5:50
Speaker 2: to my office every Monday when he was not coaching,
5:53
Speaker 2: and we would just talk general football, you know, and
5:57
Speaker 2: watch tape and do whatever. And he always said to
5:59
Speaker 2: me that, you know, if you don't have guys at
6:02
Speaker 2: a certain position, it limits your playbook. And that's the
6:05
Speaker 2: way coaches think, you know, obviously fans, you know, draft gurus, whoever,
6:10
Speaker 2: media people might. You know, we have these conversations every
6:13
Speaker 2: year to coaches, their meaningless conversations. You know, they're fun,
6:17
Speaker 2: but they're meaningless because if you don't have certain players
6:21
Speaker 2: that are good at a position on defense, then there's
6:24
Speaker 2: certain things you can't do.
6:26
Speaker 1: Right right, all right, Greg, we'll start off. We're gonna
6:29
Speaker 1: for the second year in a row, we're gonna have
6:31
Speaker 1: you evaluate a player tape at a different position. We've
6:35
Speaker 1: already had you evaluate last year. We did the guy
6:38
Speaker 1: from Colorado, the.
6:40
Speaker 3: Wide receiver, thank you.
6:43
Speaker 1: So we've already had to evaluate Arvel ree as an
6:46
Speaker 1: edge rusher in the past. Let's talk about Arvel Reese
6:49
Speaker 1: as a potential off ball linebacker and what you see
6:53
Speaker 1: from him.
6:54
Speaker 2: Which he played about half of his snaps at Ohio
6:58
Speaker 2: State this year, and you know, I thought that he
7:03
Speaker 2: really showed innate football intelligence where he keyed and diagnosed
7:08
Speaker 2: the run instantly and allowed him to trigger with burst
7:11
Speaker 2: and speed. And clearly he has burst and speed. He
7:16
Speaker 2: was able to play with tremendous range and play speed.
7:19
Speaker 2: Obviously he can run, so he can play inside out,
7:22
Speaker 2: sideline to sideline. He showed a physical component as a
7:26
Speaker 2: stacked backer, attacking downhill in the run game, taking on
7:30
Speaker 2: blocks with strong hands to do what is necessary when
7:34
Speaker 2: you're a stacked backer and that stack and shed. You
7:37
Speaker 2: must be able to take on blocks of climbing offensive
7:40
Speaker 2: linemen and physically control them and then get rid of them.
7:45
Speaker 2: He showed that. So I thought that he was patient
7:49
Speaker 2: and reading and tracking then flowing as a stack backer.
7:52
Speaker 2: So you know, believe me. Right now, we don't know
7:56
Speaker 2: what team's going to draft them and how they're going
7:58
Speaker 2: to deploy him. He could easily be deployed as a stackbacker,
8:02
Speaker 2: but he was very very good at it.
8:05
Speaker 1: Would you, I know, when you had to evaluate Nolan
8:08
Speaker 1: Smith coming out of Georgia before he went to the Eagles,
8:12
Speaker 1: you evaluated him as someone you weren't sure was better
8:16
Speaker 1: for edge or better for stackbacker. Right, how do you
8:19
Speaker 1: feel right now about Reese as far as does he
8:23
Speaker 1: look better? Does his tape stand out more in one
8:26
Speaker 1: area or another? Do you have questions about his ability
8:30
Speaker 1: to play either order?
8:30
Speaker 2: Well? I thought, and I was not the only one
8:32
Speaker 2: because I remember speaking to coaches as well. I thought
8:35
Speaker 2: that he should have made the move to stackpacker in
8:39
Speaker 2: the NFL, and obviously the Eagles did not feel that way.
8:42
Speaker 2: And two years ago, the Super Bowl year, he obviously
8:46
Speaker 2: played on the edge and toward the middle of the season,
8:48
Speaker 2: toward the end he played very well. Last year was
8:51
Speaker 2: a little bit of a struggle. He got hurt, but
8:53
Speaker 2: he did not play as well as an edge player.
8:57
Speaker 2: I can tell you for a fact that the organization
8:59
Speaker 2: definitely has question is to what level of edge player
9:02
Speaker 2: he can be. You guys probably know that. You know,
9:04
Speaker 2: it's not a given that he's going to be a
9:06
Speaker 2: big time edge player. You know, he's a very good
9:09
Speaker 2: run defender, he knows how to set the edge, but
9:12
Speaker 2: as a pass rusher, he's you know, he's always going
9:15
Speaker 2: to be light. I mean, he's never going to be
9:17
Speaker 2: two fifty five or two sixty. You know, he's just
9:19
Speaker 2: not built that way. You know, maybe the most he
9:22
Speaker 2: could get to would be two forty five, which is okay.
9:25
Speaker 2: I mean, but you know, I still think it's an
9:29
Speaker 2: unknown as to what he is as an edge player.
9:32
Speaker 2: I think they're uncertain, and I guess we're gonna find
9:35
Speaker 2: out as we go forward, because as of now, depending
9:37
Speaker 2: on what happens in the draft, they're they're a little
9:40
Speaker 2: bit lacking on the edge.
9:42
Speaker 1: And do you have that same question then about Reese
9:44
Speaker 1: being an edge player over a.
9:46
Speaker 2: He's a much more explosive athlete. Okay, then, and then
9:49
Speaker 2: Nolan Smith. Nolan Smith is explosive. There's different kinds of explosive.
9:57
Speaker 2: Nolan Smith is explosive in a twitchy, sudden way. Reese
10:01
Speaker 2: is more explosive in a powerful way like res can
10:05
Speaker 2: win with speed to power and with strong one arm
10:08
Speaker 2: stabs and just drive an offensive tackle right back into
10:11
Speaker 2: the pocket. Nolan Smith's that's not the explosive he is.
10:15
Speaker 2: He's more explosive in a twitchy, sudden, you know that
10:19
Speaker 2: kind of way.
10:20
Speaker 3: So when you look at the athletic numbers for Reese,
10:23
Speaker 3: they're pretty good. But the next guy we're going to
10:25
Speaker 3: talk about, guys has got probably some of the best
10:27
Speaker 3: best athletic testing the linebacker probably thirty years at Sonny styles,
10:32
Speaker 3: Greg who's got it all out of Ohio State. What
10:34
Speaker 3: are your thoughts on him?
10:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, his athletic testing was kind of ridiculous. Say yeah,
10:40
Speaker 2: I mean the guy is six five two forty four
10:43
Speaker 2: at the combine, ran a four four six at a
10:46
Speaker 2: forty three point five inch vertical and an eleven two broad.
10:50
Speaker 1: Sign me up. I don't care to top four.
10:54
Speaker 3: Going back nearly thirty years at the combine top that's
10:57
Speaker 3: just ridiculous. By the way.
10:58
Speaker 1: That makes me get it why teams sometimes overreached for work,
11:01
Speaker 1: because when I see that at that size, I just say,
11:04
Speaker 1: signed me up. I'll take you.
11:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you have to remember one thing, guys, he's
11:08
Speaker 2: only played stack Becker for two years. He went to
11:11
Speaker 2: Ohio State as his safety, and I mean he got better.
11:15
Speaker 2: I watched him last summer and it was last summer.
11:18
Speaker 2: After I watched him, I reached out to a good
11:20
Speaker 2: friend of mine who's a scout and does the Big ten,
11:22
Speaker 2: and I said, hey, I just watched Sunny Styles and
11:24
Speaker 2: this guy is ridiculous. And the scout said to me, oh, yeah, yeah,
11:28
Speaker 2: he sure is. So then of course I watched him
11:30
Speaker 2: this year and I thought he was even better because
11:33
Speaker 2: you just saw the comfort level was better. And don't
11:35
Speaker 2: forget both Rvel Reese and Sunny Styles, you know, played
11:40
Speaker 2: in a Matt Patricia defense. So they were coached by
11:43
Speaker 2: an NFL coach and that is definitely a big deal.
11:48
Speaker 2: So you're dealing with a guy. Obviously, the athleticism is
11:52
Speaker 2: off the charts that we know, but I thought that
11:55
Speaker 2: he had more of a downhill mentality. I thought he
11:57
Speaker 2: was more physical in the run game. I thought he
12:00
Speaker 2: navigated the box much much better, because that's a feel,
12:03
Speaker 2: I mean, and then so we with more experience, he
12:07
Speaker 2: did that much better this year. I thought his key
12:10
Speaker 2: and diagnosed traits were much better. So he was quicker
12:13
Speaker 2: with his trigger. And you know, and he's just so
12:17
Speaker 2: big when you watch him. I mean, he's just so big.
12:20
Speaker 2: There's not a lot of six y five, two hundred
12:22
Speaker 2: and forty four pound stack backers. I mean, Fred Warner
12:25
Speaker 2: is six three two thirty five and you see him
12:28
Speaker 2: and he looks really big and Sunny Styles is meaningfully bigger,
12:32
Speaker 2: two inches taller and ten pounds heavier. He's you know,
12:37
Speaker 2: and in some ways, because he's so physically gifted, there's
12:41
Speaker 2: even a positionless element to his game as well. I mean,
12:45
Speaker 2: you know, you can line him up, you know, over
12:48
Speaker 2: the slot, which he did at times. I mean, there's
12:50
Speaker 2: a lot you can do with him, but at his core,
12:53
Speaker 2: he's a stack backer.
12:55
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, this guy played right next to RVL
12:58
Speaker 1: Reeves and both of them played right in front of downs.
13:00
Speaker 1: What a what an unbelievable amount of talent on one
13:03
Speaker 1: side of the ball for all.
13:05
Speaker 2: Kayden McDonald, who likely be a first round pick.
13:08
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right.
13:09
Speaker 2: I mean I believe it's nuts. I mean, yeah, no
13:11
Speaker 2: styles at the combine, he was the guy that blew
13:14
Speaker 2: people away because it's just silly.
13:16
Speaker 3: Jeff, I know it's not a value position. Gil Brandt,
13:19
Speaker 3: the late great Gilbrandt. When I knew Gil, I remember
13:22
Speaker 3: him explaining me how we put it together as value
13:24
Speaker 3: board linebacker was way.
13:26
Speaker 2: Down, way down.
13:26
Speaker 3: This guy is such an outlier that his RAS scor
13:31
Speaker 3: is nearly perfect. Again, the athletic testing is ridiculous. Greg
13:34
Speaker 3: just broke down the tape. How did it get outside
13:36
Speaker 3: the top ten? And Greg made a great point he
13:39
Speaker 3: might be somewhat of a positionless player. I know a
13:41
Speaker 3: lot of them it doesn't work out. But this kid,
13:44
Speaker 3: this kid might break that mold. I mean remember Isaiah Simmons.
13:47
Speaker 3: You know they couldn't figure it out with him and
13:49
Speaker 3: it didn't work. This seems like this is this got
13:51
Speaker 3: a chance to work.
13:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, And Isaiah Simmons could never really see the game
13:55
Speaker 2: the right way, you know, whereas Sunny Styles, from what
13:58
Speaker 2: I understand, is incredibly intelligent and really football smart. So
14:02
Speaker 2: you know, I think there's just a different level of
14:04
Speaker 2: mentality involved. You know, again, none of us know where
14:08
Speaker 2: guys are going to get drafted. Maybe once the draft
14:10
Speaker 2: gets started, teams you know, say, hey, you know, this
14:12
Speaker 2: guy's just special, we got to draft him, or they
14:14
Speaker 2: say more traditionally, well he's a stack backer, so you
14:18
Speaker 2: know we're gonna wait and he ends up going well,
14:20
Speaker 2: you never know.
14:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, well, I mean this sort of it
14:23
Speaker 1: brings up the look at what Nick Emm and Worri
14:26
Speaker 1: Right did for the Seattle Seahawks defense. We were talking
14:28
Speaker 1: about the Seahawks earlier. Yeah, he was the second round pick,
14:30
Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, if a second round pick, right, right,
14:33
Speaker 1: because some teams don't value safety the way they value
14:38
Speaker 1: other positions. Right, A great athlete, there's no question at
14:41
Speaker 1: first round talent. His tape was great. I remember you
14:43
Speaker 1: loved this, it was great, Carolina Right. And if this,
14:46
Speaker 1: if a guy like this, Sunny Styles goes in the
14:48
Speaker 1: bottom half of the first round through a good team
14:50
Speaker 1: I don't know, Steelers or even something like that because
14:52
Speaker 1: of positional value. It's like the rich get richer.
14:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we'll see how it happens. There's so many
14:59
Speaker 2: things he can do for you. But of course adas
15:01
Speaker 2: Corey is a stack backer. But you know, again, it
15:05
Speaker 2: gets back to that same point. If you don't if
15:06
Speaker 2: you're not good at the position, you know, you got problems.
15:10
Speaker 2: You know, you know, that's always the thing that fascinates
15:13
Speaker 2: me about. You know, look, we all understand the NFL game.
15:16
Speaker 2: We all know that every team wants a great quarterback.
15:18
Speaker 2: We all know you want a great pass rusher. We
15:20
Speaker 2: all know you want corners that can cover man to man.
15:23
Speaker 2: You know, there's certain things we all know. But that
15:26
Speaker 2: doesn't mean all the other positions don't matter. You know,
15:29
Speaker 2: you still need those positions in order to have a
15:32
Speaker 2: good team, you know. So you know, and I think
15:35
Speaker 2: the Seahawks in many ways prove that. I mean, even
15:38
Speaker 2: just look at their D line. And I know we
15:40
Speaker 2: already talked about the D line, both edge players and
15:43
Speaker 2: D tackles, but you know they had Leonard Williams and
15:46
Speaker 2: Byron Murphy inside and Jaron Reid as the third and
15:50
Speaker 2: one could argue that that was really the foundation of
15:52
Speaker 2: their defense, the core foundation.
15:55
Speaker 1: Right right, all right, Greg, Let's move on to the
15:59
Speaker 1: defensefl defense factory known as Georgia, where they have a
16:03
Speaker 1: linebacker CJ.
16:04
Speaker 2: Allen. Yeah, and CJ. Allen to me is just one
16:09
Speaker 2: of those really solid players. And I did him last
16:13
Speaker 2: summer and I did him this year. You know, I'm
16:16
Speaker 2: not sure he's a special guy. I think he's not
16:19
Speaker 2: a sudden explosive guy. But he's got plus play speed
16:23
Speaker 2: and range. He can work inside out, he can make
16:26
Speaker 2: plays outside the numbers. He's really good in past coverage.
16:30
Speaker 2: He understands route concepts. You know, I think that he's
16:34
Speaker 2: really decisive in how he plays. He sees it well,
16:37
Speaker 2: he triggers quickly. He's very aggressive in the run game.
16:42
Speaker 2: He was asked to do a lot of things in
16:44
Speaker 2: Kirby Smart's defense, which tells you that he can do it,
16:47
Speaker 2: or you know, Kirby Smart wouldn't ask him to do
16:49
Speaker 2: And Kirby Smart is one of those college coaches that
16:52
Speaker 2: does ask a lot of his defensive players. So you know, CG.
16:56
Speaker 2: Allen clearly is a guy that you know has a
16:59
Speaker 2: lot of football intelligence. You know, as I watched him,
17:04
Speaker 2: the guys I thought of that popped into my head
17:06
Speaker 2: just because, as everybody listening knows, I'm an NFL guy
17:09
Speaker 2: as well. I thought of guys like Zayar Franklin and
17:12
Speaker 2: as he's a sayre just really solid NFL linebackers, Guys
17:17
Speaker 2: that you feel really good about lining up there. You
17:19
Speaker 2: know you can they play every snap. They're really solid players,
17:23
Speaker 2: but maybe they're not superstars. I saw cj al On
17:26
Speaker 2: that way. He's going to start and he'll be a
17:28
Speaker 2: good player.
17:30
Speaker 3: All right, let's go to the next guy. This guy
17:32
Speaker 3: is got, he had a good combine workout, really good
17:35
Speaker 3: athletic members. That's Anthony Hill out of Texas.
17:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, Anthony Hill is a fascinating guy because he is
17:41
Speaker 2: a really really good athlete. I don't know if he's
17:44
Speaker 2: as good a linebacker as he is an athlete. And
17:47
Speaker 2: that's the concern with Hill. And I've spoken to scouts
17:51
Speaker 2: who you know, have that part of the country, and
17:54
Speaker 2: they agreed with me after I watched him, because I
17:56
Speaker 2: think as soon as you turn the tape on, you
17:58
Speaker 2: see that this guy's a sudden and athlete. I mean
18:01
Speaker 2: that's a given. You know, he's twitchy, he's big, he
18:04
Speaker 2: can run, he's aggressive, but I think sometimes and this,
18:09
Speaker 2: you know, was corroborated by people I've spoken to, because
18:13
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes when you see it, you don't know
18:14
Speaker 2: exactly how a guy's coached, and you know, I always
18:17
Speaker 2: hate to say certain things if I don't know how
18:20
Speaker 2: a guy's coached. So I was able to get some information.
18:23
Speaker 2: But I thought there were times when he was aggressive
18:26
Speaker 2: without any real instinct or calculation. So, you know, I
18:29
Speaker 2: think that he's a phenomenal athlete and he'll get drafted,
18:33
Speaker 2: you know, certainly by day two because the athletic and
18:37
Speaker 2: physical traits are there. He's he's urgent, he plays fast,
18:43
Speaker 2: but I think his play recognition needs to be better.
18:46
Speaker 2: Sometimes that happens, sometimes it doesn't. This is not a
18:50
Speaker 2: direct comparison, so I don't want people to take it
18:53
Speaker 2: as such. But there was a linebacker from a few
18:55
Speaker 2: years ago who was very much like him, and now
18:58
Speaker 2: I think he's with his third or fourth team, and
19:00
Speaker 2: he was a first round pick. And that's Kenneth Murray
19:03
Speaker 2: from Oklahoma six three, two forty five. Great athlete came
19:08
Speaker 2: out in the same draft as Patrick Queen. I liked
19:10
Speaker 2: Murray more than Queen, just because the tape was so athletic,
19:14
Speaker 2: and uh, you know he started I forget where he
19:16
Speaker 2: started his career, but he you know, Sandy Charger, maybe yeah,
19:21
Speaker 2: with Tennessee, then Dallas. I don't know where he is now,
19:24
Speaker 2: if he's still Dallas, but uh, he just never saw
19:28
Speaker 2: the game the right way as athletic as he is.
19:31
Speaker 2: And again, I don't want to say that's Anthony Hill,
19:34
Speaker 2: but you know, I believe me. I hope that it's
19:36
Speaker 2: not Anthony Hill because he's such a good athlete and
19:39
Speaker 2: he's fun to watch, but sometimes I felt like there
19:42
Speaker 2: wasn't a lot of calculation in the in his movement.
19:47
Speaker 2: All right.
19:47
Speaker 1: Uh, Next we got a guy greg from Cincinnati, Jake
19:50
Speaker 1: Galladay no relation to Kenny Galladay.
19:54
Speaker 2: Way. Yeah, yeah. This guy is a fascinating watch because
19:59
Speaker 2: now you're talking about a guy that is over sixty four,
20:02
Speaker 2: where he's about two forty, really athletically gifted four point
20:07
Speaker 2: six thirty nine inch vertical. They used him. He lined
20:11
Speaker 2: up outside the box, he lined up in the box.
20:14
Speaker 2: He's a really fun watch because he's got size, speed, athleticism, aggressiveness.
20:20
Speaker 2: Every play is the last play he's going to play
20:23
Speaker 2: in in his life. I mean, this guy plays hard
20:26
Speaker 2: all the time. He played a ton outside the box,
20:31
Speaker 2: but he'll be a stackbacker now. Now it comes down
20:34
Speaker 2: to team and scheme as to whether they see him
20:37
Speaker 2: as a sam or a will. You know, he's he's
20:41
Speaker 2: fascinating because he's such a good athlete. I even had
20:46
Speaker 2: moments where I thought of him and thought, could he
20:49
Speaker 2: be a Nick Immon Worry type player?
20:51
Speaker 1: You know?
20:51
Speaker 2: So I don't know, but I'm pretty sure he'll be
20:54
Speaker 2: seen as a linebacker. He's a little straight lineish, but man,
20:59
Speaker 2: does this guy play hard. He's got tremendous position versatility.
21:05
Speaker 2: He's he's a fun watch. He's you you have to
21:09
Speaker 2: draft him with an idea. Well, obviously, if you draft him,
21:12
Speaker 2: you have this idea, but you have to have an
21:15
Speaker 2: idea of how you're going to deploy him in your defense.
21:18
Speaker 2: You can't draft him and then figure it out.
21:21
Speaker 3: His background is amazing. He played first at the same
21:24
Speaker 3: score as Scottie Pippen, Central Arkansas.
21:27
Speaker 2: Central Arkansas.
21:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, he transfers to you see, he played there two years.
21:33
Speaker 3: His last season last year he had when we tell
21:36
Speaker 3: you know, I know, tackles are an overrated stat somewhat,
21:38
Speaker 3: but one hundred and five could bind tackles. Plus all
21:40
Speaker 3: the juice that this kid has as an athlete.
21:42
Speaker 2: Ah, I mean, this guy is relentless, he's competitive, he's
21:46
Speaker 2: urgent in everything he does. I mean, he's an attitude
21:49
Speaker 2: swagger player in any defense you're gonna want.
21:51
Speaker 3: To He's from Memphis. First of all, I got to
21:54
Speaker 3: talk to Ryan Simmerfield. What the hell did they get
21:56
Speaker 3: the art? I don't know. That's weird, man, It's weird.
22:00
Speaker 2: He's a fascinating guy, right, good stuff, all right.
22:04
Speaker 3: Next guy is a guy. Now, Greg, you want to
22:05
Speaker 3: make sure he was on our list, but you want
22:06
Speaker 3: to make sure we talked about Jacob Rodriguez in Texas Tech.
22:11
Speaker 2: This guy's just a linebacker. I mean I watched him,
22:13
Speaker 2: you know, last summer. What I do a lot of
22:15
Speaker 2: times is in the summer, I'll just look at like
22:17
Speaker 2: the list of leading tacklers in college football because you know,
22:21
Speaker 2: sometimes I don't even know who some of them are,
22:23
Speaker 2: you know, because they're not necessarily all from the SEC
22:26
Speaker 2: or the Big ten. And he was near the top
22:28
Speaker 2: of the list last you know, from twenty twenty four.
22:30
Speaker 2: So I said, okay, I'm going to watch this guy.
22:33
Speaker 2: I loved it, and then I watched him again this year.
22:35
Speaker 2: I loved it. And just so you know that it's
22:38
Speaker 2: not just me. I heard Luke Keithley talk and he
22:41
Speaker 2: knows a little bit more about linebacker than I do,
22:44
Speaker 2: and he said the number one thing for a linebacker
22:47
Speaker 2: is not athleticism, it's processing. And then he went on
22:50
Speaker 2: to talk about Jacob Rodriguez and that's exactly what I saw.
22:55
Speaker 2: I mean, I type, here's what I typed in one
22:57
Speaker 2: of my transition notes. I can't recall a value alading
23:00
Speaker 2: a linebacker who stayed clean on his scrapes and flows
23:03
Speaker 2: as much as Rodriguez. This guy is so decisive in
23:07
Speaker 2: his movement, yet so controlled and so calculated. This guy's
23:12
Speaker 2: just going to be a starting linebacker in the league now,
23:14
Speaker 2: whether he's a three down linebacker to start. Although I
23:17
Speaker 2: got to tell you his testing numbers were way better
23:21
Speaker 2: than people thought. I mean, he ran a four five seven,
23:24
Speaker 2: a thirty eight and a half inch vertical. His twenty
23:26
Speaker 2: yard shuttle was really good at four point one to nine.
23:29
Speaker 2: Because I think the sense when you watch his tape
23:31
Speaker 2: at times is that he's not a great athlete. He's
23:35
Speaker 2: not a bad athlete, but you don't come away going, wow,
23:38
Speaker 2: what a great athlete. But he tested as a much
23:41
Speaker 2: better athlete and that's going to help him. But this guy,
23:45
Speaker 2: he is just he knows how to play linebacker and
23:47
Speaker 2: it's innate. You can just see it. I mean, the
23:50
Speaker 2: guy sees the game at a really high level.
23:54
Speaker 3: He was he Jeff over his final two seasons a
23:57
Speaker 3: Texas tack again, tackles but a combine two hundred and
24:03
Speaker 3: fifty five.
24:05
Speaker 2: And they were the good time they weren't, you know,
24:07
Speaker 2: twelve yards down the field his machine and making tackles
24:11
Speaker 2: in the gap. I mean, really, he's a really good player.
24:14
Speaker 3: And but the athletic numbers that he had at the
24:16
Speaker 3: combo in which she talked about, that's actually important because
24:19
Speaker 3: tackles are fine, but that's not really the greatest barometer
24:22
Speaker 3: because sometimes if you're on a bad team, that could
24:24
Speaker 3: be overinflated. It's really what the tape shows and Greg
24:28
Speaker 3: matching up athletic numbers, which analytical people were for NFL
24:31
Speaker 3: teams are gonna want to look to do, right, he
24:33
Speaker 3: just had it. Plus his tape. This kid's are this
24:35
Speaker 3: kid's a baller, no, no doubt.
24:37
Speaker 1: Did you say he was the Big twelve defensive Player
24:39
Speaker 1: of the Year.
24:40
Speaker 3: Actually player of the year in college I believe he
24:42
Speaker 3: was the Big twelve. Yeah, he was the most outstanding
24:45
Speaker 3: defensive player that they also won the award.
24:48
Speaker 1: Oh wow, that's really good.
24:50
Speaker 2: So he won both the Bednaric and Nigersky.
24:52
Speaker 3: Awards, by the way. That's insane. But that's here.
24:55
Speaker 2: Just think about this. He came out of Texas as
24:57
Speaker 2: a four star recruit after playing quarterback and safety in
25:01
Speaker 2: high school, and he was initially seen as a dual
25:04
Speaker 2: threat quarterback and athlete prospect. And he began his college
25:08
Speaker 2: career at Virginia where he played four positions as a freshman,
25:12
Speaker 2: including quarterback, and then transferred to Texas A and M,
25:16
Speaker 2: where they made him a full Texas tech excuse me,
25:18
Speaker 2: where they made him a full time linebacker.
25:20
Speaker 3: That's insane. He became the best lineback, best college player,
25:25
Speaker 3: best defensive player in college footballson the.
25:27
Speaker 1: Eli Stowers of linebackers, former quarterback, and then transfer.
25:31
Speaker 3: Into remember lane quarterback.
25:36
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Speaker 1: one and up. All right, great stuff, Greg, Let's go
26:38
Speaker 1: to Pitt and talk about Kyle Lewis.
26:41
Speaker 2: Now, Kyle Lewis is a really interesting guy because he's light,
26:45
Speaker 2: but he's he's an explosive athlete. So here's a guy
26:49
Speaker 2: that because he was five eleven and seven eighths two
26:51
Speaker 2: twenty really good athlete, four five, three thirty nine and
26:55
Speaker 2: a half vertical, but there were size limitations clearly. So
27:00
Speaker 2: the easy answer when you watch him play is to say, okay,
27:03
Speaker 2: what is he in the league, And you think, okay,
27:05
Speaker 2: it's a weak side, run and chase linebacker in a
27:08
Speaker 2: four to three base front. You know, that's ideally what
27:11
Speaker 2: he could get to, you know, like in the old
27:14
Speaker 2: Tony Dungee defense. You know, the four to three, the
27:17
Speaker 2: cover two type defense. You know, and again this is
27:20
Speaker 2: not a direct comparison. I'm doing this to talk tactically
27:23
Speaker 2: and philosophically. You know, Derek Brooks was that player. He
27:26
Speaker 2: lined up right behind the three technique Warren sapp and
27:30
Speaker 2: that allows him to basically run and chase and be free.
27:33
Speaker 2: That's ultimately, if you see Kyle Lewis as a starter
27:37
Speaker 2: down the road in your defense, my sense is that's
27:40
Speaker 2: the style of defense he would have to play in.
27:43
Speaker 2: I mean, this guy is a terrific, terrific athlete. My senses,
27:49
Speaker 2: he'd begin his career as a sub package linebacker. He's
27:52
Speaker 2: got great athleticism, He's a really good coverage player in
27:56
Speaker 2: both man and zone. He read routes extremely well. And
27:59
Speaker 2: then you hope for development and see if he can
28:02
Speaker 2: become a starting linebacker with coaching and experience, you know,
28:05
Speaker 2: he needs to play with more physicality and competitive toughness
28:09
Speaker 2: in the box. He's really a he's almost like a
28:12
Speaker 2: safety who plays linebacker. You know, he's that kind of
28:16
Speaker 2: player right now.
28:17
Speaker 3: So the two numbers that really stand out, he was
28:19
Speaker 3: a two year starter at Pitt. He had over his
28:22
Speaker 3: final two years at Pitt when he became a start,
28:24
Speaker 3: he had twenty five tackles for loss and ten total sex.
28:27
Speaker 3: On Greg's point, as a subpackage player at the next
28:29
Speaker 3: level or potentially safety because of the size limitations, we'll
28:32
Speaker 3: see see.
28:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, two twenty is light. I mean,
28:37
Speaker 2: I know the game has changed to some degree. Although
28:40
Speaker 2: we could spend time which we you know we well
28:43
Speaker 2: at some point I'm sure talking about the fact that
28:44
Speaker 2: the run game seems to becoming more in vogue these
28:47
Speaker 2: last couple of years. So you know, if you're going
28:49
Speaker 2: to play with a two hundred and twenty pound linebacker
28:51
Speaker 2: as a starter, there's only certain ways he can be
28:54
Speaker 2: deployed in a defense.
28:55
Speaker 1: Right Yeah, run game rebirth mainly because of the lightness
28:59
Speaker 1: that we're seene. Yeah, and so yeah, one correlation to another.
29:04
Speaker 3: Greg, what would an Inside the Bird show be without
29:06
Speaker 3: talking about a trot Or. That's Josiah Trott. Go ahead, Greg,
29:11
Speaker 3: what you got on?
29:11
Speaker 2: It's funny because you know, as I'm sure I've told
29:14
Speaker 2: you guys, Jeremiah Trotter when he played for the Eagles,
29:18
Speaker 2: lived in Mount Laurel and he stayed here for you
29:20
Speaker 2: know a number of years after until he moved because
29:23
Speaker 2: I think he then moved down to the Clemson you know,
29:28
Speaker 2: and and unfortunately his wife passed away, which was incredibly sad.
29:32
Speaker 2: But so he came in and watched film with me
29:34
Speaker 2: at times because he lived five minutes away. Jeremiah, Yeah,
29:38
Speaker 2: senior Jeremiah, and again learned so much because it's so
29:42
Speaker 2: amazing that you just, you know, when you sit with
29:44
Speaker 2: guys who you know, do this, you know in a
29:47
Speaker 2: totally different way than I do, and they they immediately
29:51
Speaker 2: see something and they just like he would sit here,
29:53
Speaker 2: we'd watch tape and he'd go he'd say that's going
29:56
Speaker 2: to be a run to the right, and I'd say,
29:57
Speaker 2: how do you know that? And he says, well, I
29:58
Speaker 2: could tell by the the offensive guard is. He immediately
30:02
Speaker 2: knows something that was just like ridiculous, you know, because
30:05
Speaker 2: that's the way he was taught, and that's the world
30:07
Speaker 2: in which he lived for years and years and years. Sure,
30:09
Speaker 2: you know, And of course it was a run to
30:11
Speaker 2: the right, you know. I mean, But anyway to get
30:14
Speaker 2: to Josiah Trotter, I guess it's no surprise then that
30:18
Speaker 2: Josiah Trotter is old school like his dad. He is
30:21
Speaker 2: your classic old school stackbacker. Okay, he's six two, two
30:26
Speaker 2: thirty seven. I mean, this guy is a stackbacker with
30:29
Speaker 2: heavy hands, a physical game stack and shed contact violence.
30:35
Speaker 2: I mean, everything about this guy says he's a mic
30:39
Speaker 2: linebacker and a base four to three. Now, could he
30:42
Speaker 2: be the strong side inside backer in a base five two,
30:44
Speaker 2: Yes he could, of course, But I mean, this guy
30:47
Speaker 2: is a base linebacker. Now, he was an excellent blitzer
30:51
Speaker 2: as well, But I don't think he'd start his career
30:54
Speaker 2: even if he's a starter right away. I don't think
30:56
Speaker 2: he play in your sub you know, early on. But
30:59
Speaker 2: he's old school, and like I said, given who his
31:02
Speaker 2: dad is, that probably doesn't surprise anybody.
31:05
Speaker 1: How would you compare his tape coming out of Missouri?
31:07
Speaker 1: And I believe he started off at West Virginia to
31:10
Speaker 1: West Virginia.
31:11
Speaker 2: You know, he came out of Saint Joe's Prep in Philly, right, another.
31:14
Speaker 1: Guy I think he played with. Did he play one
31:17
Speaker 1: year with Marvin Harrison or did.
31:19
Speaker 2: They probably on the court and yeah, yeah, it's actually he.
31:23
Speaker 3: Hasn't even turned twenty one yet.
31:25
Speaker 1: It's crazy crazy, but either way, Yeah, how would you
31:29
Speaker 1: compare his tape in the style of play to Jeremiah
31:32
Speaker 1: Trotter Junior, who is on the Eagles entering year three.
31:36
Speaker 2: I would say they're similar, except that Josiah is bigger,
31:39
Speaker 2: so therefore he's much more impactful in that style of play.
31:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he would you say he's also more athletic
31:47
Speaker 1: or kind of the same from an athletics, I.
31:48
Speaker 2: Would trying to think back, I would say the athleticism
31:52
Speaker 2: is probably in the same range. Okay, you know, but yeah,
31:57
Speaker 2: but but Josiah is the younger brother, He's he's bigger.
32:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.
32:02
Speaker 2: And just to show you how thought about, how highly
32:04
Speaker 2: thought of he was, remember that's the SEC Missouri. He
32:07
Speaker 2: was named first team All a SEC by the conference's coaches.
32:10
Speaker 2: You know, to me, that means more than you know,
32:12
Speaker 2: the AP or the Sporting New whoever. You know, not
32:15
Speaker 2: that those publications anything, but I mean when the coaches
32:19
Speaker 2: who study you make you first team, then you're you're
32:22
Speaker 2: doing it the right way.
32:23
Speaker 3: He uh, he had a huge year at Missouri and
32:26
Speaker 3: let's play one year three years at West Virginia. He
32:29
Speaker 3: did have a knee injury earlier in his career, but
32:31
Speaker 3: he had eighty four cabine tackles, thirteen for loss. That's
32:35
Speaker 3: that's good at to pass his defense. He also had
32:37
Speaker 3: two sacks. So being that he turns twenty one this week, Jeff,
32:41
Speaker 3: so as I sent it back to you, it'll be
32:44
Speaker 3: interesting to see depending on which around he goes. Well,
32:46
Speaker 3: we'll do a little research on where we think he
32:48
Speaker 3: got what.
32:49
Speaker 2: I mean, his game is built on instinctive key and
32:52
Speaker 2: diagnose resulting in a quick trigger and the physicality and
32:55
Speaker 2: toughness that's his game. Yeah, and you can see it
32:59
Speaker 2: right away. I mean, this guy is just physically.
33:01
Speaker 1: You got wheeled.
33:03
Speaker 2: The acts and appreciation now yeah, the axe man. Yeah yeah, all.
33:07
Speaker 1: Right, Greg, you had another linebacker that you wanted to
33:10
Speaker 1: make sure we talked about.
33:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this guy's worth mentioning because he's kind
33:14
Speaker 2: of a lower case Jacob Rodriguez. And that's Jimmy Rolder
33:18
Speaker 2: from Michigan who only started for one year. He was
33:21
Speaker 2: a four star recruit when he came out of high
33:23
Speaker 2: school in Illinois, but he led Michigan and tackles this year.
33:27
Speaker 2: And he's another guy, like I said, he's like Rodriguez.
33:30
Speaker 2: I mean two traits immediately stood out quick key and
33:33
Speaker 2: diagnosed in the run game and discipline to his play.
33:37
Speaker 2: I mean he played his responsibility about as well as
33:40
Speaker 2: you could play it. And he's a really strong tackler,
33:43
Speaker 2: and that's an overlooked trait these days, guys. You know,
33:46
Speaker 2: we don't talk about that. And he's six two two
33:48
Speaker 2: thirty eight, so he's not small. He really knew how
33:52
Speaker 2: to play at the second level, navigating it really well.
33:55
Speaker 2: He played with his eyes. You hear that a lot
33:58
Speaker 2: with you know, certain position. He played with his eyes
34:02
Speaker 2: really really well. So he always seemed to take good
34:05
Speaker 2: angles to the ball. But there was just a calculated
34:08
Speaker 2: feel to his game. Now, is he the best athlete, No,
34:12
Speaker 2: but he's a good enough athlete. Yeah. And because he's
34:16
Speaker 2: not the best athlete, you know, I don't know when
34:18
Speaker 2: he'll go in any draft. You know, that's who knows
34:20
Speaker 2: that stuff. I mean, well, I guess I guess every
34:23
Speaker 2: other draft guru knows that stuff.
34:24
Speaker 3: I'm not smart enough to know that stuff.
34:26
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, yeah, so but he's he's a I
34:32
Speaker 2: just really enjoyed watching him. And I was told by
34:35
Speaker 2: someone who knows and I'm trying to remember who told
34:37
Speaker 2: me that. Wink Martindale, who was in Michigan I'm not
34:40
Speaker 2: there anymore obviously now, said that this kid is really
34:45
Speaker 2: really good, like just knows how to play the position
34:48
Speaker 2: of linebacker. And if Wink Martindale said, you got to
34:51
Speaker 2: believe that, you know, he's seen a few of them
34:52
Speaker 2: in his day.
34:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good stamp of.
34:57
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean again, who knows where he goes, but
34:59
Speaker 2: he's he's he's one of those guys that wouldn't surprise
35:02
Speaker 2: me if all of a sudden depending on where he goes.
35:04
Speaker 2: He's starting as a rookie and people are like, who's
35:06
Speaker 2: this guy? Right?
35:08
Speaker 1: All right, excellent, that's a good look at this off
35:11
Speaker 1: ball linebacker class.
35:12
Speaker 3: A lot of guys.
35:13
Speaker 1: Greg likes athletes, and you know these are schemes. It's
35:16
Speaker 1: a good Yeah, it's good.
35:18
Speaker 2: It returns us back to our opening you know that
35:20
Speaker 2: you brought up, Jeff, and your one hundred percent right
35:22
Speaker 2: is you know, how will teams view the position? Because
35:25
Speaker 2: these are good players, you know, and and they're going
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Speaker 2: to play in the league all and it wouldn't surprise
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Speaker 2: me if almost everybody we spoke about it ends up
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Speaker 2: being a starter at some point. It's just, you know,
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Speaker 2: how do they how are they valued by specific teams?
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Speaker 3: Right?
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Speaker 1: All right, that'll do it for this episode of The
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Speaker 1: Intel with Greg Cosel. For Greg and Adam Kaplan, I'm
35:44
Speaker 1: Jeff Mosher.