Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1263 - When Your 7-Year-Old Acts Inappropriately: A Tricky Listener Question

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#1263 - When Your 7-Year-Old Acts Inappropriately: A Tricky Listener Question · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Well, it's not explicit.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: The contents of this podcast may not be suitable for
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: younger ears. Parent discretion is advised. What do you do
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: when you find out that your young child, somewhere around
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: the age of seven, is touching people inappropriately, is doing
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: things that are well put your son in a I
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: guess a sexually compromised position.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: That is our tricky question.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Today Today and welcome to the Happy Families podcast, Real
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Parenting Solutions. Every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast,
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: we are Justin and Kylie Coulson, and every Tuesday on
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: the pod we answer your tricky questions. They can be
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: about the most mundane things and also about the most
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: challenging things. It can be niche or general family relationships,
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: well being, discipline, just life. If you'd like to submit
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: a tricky question, we've got a super simple system at
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: happy families dot com dot au. Just scrat out of podcasts,
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: click the record button and start talk, or you can
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: send us a voice note to podcasts at happy families
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: dot com dot au. We received the following from Liz
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: in Melbourne.
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  Speaker 3: Doctor Justin Elizabeth from Melbourne. I have a seven year
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: old boy in grade twos performing some actions of touching
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: or tapping girls in the bottom and trying to lift
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: their skirts and smell where they've been sitting sometimes as well.
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  Speaker 3: It just scare me to think this behavior could lead
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: to other things when he's older. I believe he's the
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: only one that's in his class of school that's doing this.
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: And I'm really unsure about how to tackle this issue,
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: and I would love if you could offer any advice please.
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  Speaker 4: I know you ask for tricky questions. This is a
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: tricky one. This is a really tricky one, and I
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: usually have heaps to say, but today I actually am
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: probably going to defer a lot to you in relation
• 1:51
  Speaker 4: to this. You are writing a book all about boys,
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: and I think while I might have some things to
• 1:57
  Speaker 4: add a little bit of color to what you're sharing,
• 1:59
  Speaker 4: i'd like to hear You've got to say.
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, I hear this question, and it reminds me
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: of so many things that parents have said to me
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: when they find out that I'm writing a book about boys.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: I had one mum of four, two boys, two girls,
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: and name was Brook, she said, And this is a
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: direct quote. I'm using this in chapter one of my books.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: She said, quote. I find it kind of scary to
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: be raising boys. It's so different to girls. I'm worried
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: about different things. It's just scarier. And what I find
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: is that the questions that parents ask about boys often
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: just hit differently, because when you hear a question like
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: what Elizabeth's asked a there's a magnitude, there's a heft,
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: there's a funk to it. If you were to drop
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: her on the table, it would land differently to a
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: lot of the questions that we hear about girls. Not
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: that it's a competition, but worth highlighting.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: Kylie.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: Let's start with identifying the difference between natural curiosity and
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: concerning behavior. So it's completely normal for children aged somewhere
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: between four and eight five and eight to start getting
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: really curious about gender, about bodies. I mean this is
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: when around around four three or four is where kids
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: start playing doctors and no, but from about four five six,
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: that's where they step into well this is what a
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: girl does and this is what a boy does. They
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: see gender, they're curious about their bodies. They have lots
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: of awkward questions, totally normal development. The behavior that we're
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: discussing today touching other kids on the back side, try
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: to lift skirts, smelling where girls have been sitting. This
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: goes beyond what you'd consider to be normal curiosity. Also,
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: it's only going one way. It's not like Elizabeth said,
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: he's doing it to everybody. It's not like other boys
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: are copying this treatment. It is only girls that he's
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: doing it too.
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: And from her understanding, he's the only one. So it's
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: not like there's a cohort of boys that are all
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: kind of having, you know, egging each other on. This
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: is individual behavior.
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  Speaker 2: It's deviating from the norm in a way that is
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  Speaker 2: not healthy, not functional, or not typical. And other kids
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: are being affected as well, so we need immediate intervention. Shortly,
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: I want to speculate about where this kind of behavior
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: comes from, especially in young children. We'll talk about that,
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: but that's sort of moving away from Elizabeth's question. And
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: what we really need to do is address the issue immediately.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: To me, that's the most important thing to do. So
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: first off, we need to take immediate action on an
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: issue like this. This isn't the sort of thing where
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: we fluff around clear simple direct communication. We keep our
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: hands to ourselves. Everybody's body belongs to them. It's not
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: about shaming, but we have to be really clear to
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: our child it's.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: Not okay for this to occur.
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  Speaker 2: Now, we can explore why, we can try to understand
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: what's going on later, and we'll talk about that in
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: the second half of the podcast, but my immediate response
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: is there just needs to be a very clear line
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: in the sand. This is a boundary. We do not
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: cross it. The transgression around this is significant and it's concerning,
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: and it ties in with consent. I'm an ambassador for
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: the federal government's Consent Can't Wait campaign. Just a couple
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: of things and this and now. Consent at this age
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  Speaker 2: typically isn't about issues of morality and sexuality and touching,
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: but sometimes it needs to be. It's about respecting boundaries
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: in every interaction. So we want to teach kids that
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: if someone doesn't want to hug, you don't hug them.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: If someone says no to tickling, you don't tickle them.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: If someone says no you can't borrow my toys, you
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: can't borrow my toys. If someone's getting changed in the bathroom,
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: they want privacy, you give them privacy. When it comes
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: to body safety, your body belongs to you. Other people's
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  Speaker 2: bodies belong to them.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: We have to.
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  Speaker 2: Practice asking permission. If you wouldn't ask that girl permission,
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: can I lift up your skirt, then it's not okay.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: To do it.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: And if you would ask that girl permission, then you
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: need to understand what boundaries are. And again we'll talk
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: about where this is coming from in a sec I.
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: Think it's really really easy when we are placed in
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: situations like this, like I can't imagine getting a phone
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: call from the school principle and being told that this
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: is what my child's doing. And so as a parent,
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: it can be really really easy in that moment to
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: catastrophize and project where this behavior will lead in the future,
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: and therefore treat our child differently in that process. Elizabeth,
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: based on her message, is sounding quite level headed at
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: the moment, but over time it can be really easy
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: to just get caught up in the emotion of everything
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: and why is my child doing this? And if we
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: can just as parents, take it a notch down and
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: deal with today. Don't even think about what tomorrow looks like,
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: or what next week or next year. Just focus on
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: today because your child needs you today.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And again, those really clear, simple conversations direct. I'm
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: going to recommend Michelle Mitchell's books The Girl's Guide and
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: The Guy's Guide to Puberty, and also where.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: Do Babies Come From?
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  Speaker 2: Maybe these conversations aren't happening enough, or maybe we need
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: to get a lot more clear and direct about it.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: Michelle us that does a great job about talking about
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: consent and where do babies come from? A couple of
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: other things that I think are important. I would be
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: speaking with the school about it. They're obviously talking with you,
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: So get on the same team, be aligned, and find
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: out what can be done in a school context. So
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: is there a possibility that there can be a little
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: bit more supervised play that the teacher and their school
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  Speaker 2: counselor need to know what's going on in schools will
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  Speaker 2: have protocols for this situation, and we need to make
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: sure that there are consistent boundaries between home and school.
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  Speaker 2: But fundamentally, I think this is one of those ones
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  Speaker 2: where as parents we need to be right on top
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: of it, and there may be there may be cause.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: For professional help.
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  Speaker 2: After the break, I want to talk about where that
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  Speaker 2: might come from and why you might need to go
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: down the professional route. Not certain, but I'm pretty sure
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: that we would need to go there. Two other things,
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  Speaker 2: we need to understand where it's coming from. So that's
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: like I said, after the break, and also we've got
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  Speaker 2: a monitor online access. I don't know, we just don't
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: have any information about what he might have been exposed to,
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: but we want to make sure that he's not being
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: exposed to inappropriate content explicit content online. After the break,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: we'll talk about where this could be coming from and
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: effective ways that we can have deeper conversations with our
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: son about problem sexual behavior. Okay, So we have a
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: very tough, very tricky question, Kylie, a handful of things
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: in terms of his how the conversation needs to go.
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  Speaker 2: You need to make sure that he stops. You need
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: to make sure that consent's being taught. Need to work
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: with the school to protect people who may otherwise be harmed.
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  Speaker 2: That's kind of the guts of what we've talked about
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: so far.
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  Speaker 4: So while I think that everything that your sharing is
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: so important and we need that immediate action, like you suggested,
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  Speaker 4: at this point, what you've given us is everything that
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: needs to be done to our child or for our child,
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  Speaker 4: and I think the next step has to be how
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: do we work with our child. You talk about the
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: three ease of discipline, and I think that this really
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: touches beautifully with how do we now tap into a
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: place of curiosity to explore what is going on for
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: our child, what is kind of causing this behavior, and
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: then explaining why this behavior is int appropriate, and then
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: exploring how we can empower him.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So part of me wants to say this should be
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: the process from the beginning, But the reason I stepped
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: in with direction immediately is because of the seriousness of
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: the situation. Yeah, I agree, just got to nip in
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  Speaker 2: the butt. You've got to make it really clear there's
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: a boundary, it's been crossed.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: You can't do that.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: But once emotions have settled, once everyone's feeling better, You're
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: exactly right. This is the kind of thing where we
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: sit down and say, hey, bud, where's this coming from?
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: Like this is not what any of your friends do,
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: this is not what other seven year olds.
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: Do, and you've seen other people doing this, Like, yeah.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Where is it coming from?
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: And by doing a really deep dive on this exploring,
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: that's where we're going to start to probably make the
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: most progress and be more effective in long term limits setting.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: The thing that you're probably going to come across here, though,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: is you've got a someone who's going to say, I
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: don't know, going to shrug shoulder, is going to get
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: really defensive and going to be absolutely terrified of getting
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: in trouble.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: So this is where I start to speculate.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: Elizabeth hasn't given us any indication that is going on,
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: and it may not have been going on, but here
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: are my primary suspicions with this kind of behavior. Typically,
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: this has learned behavior. This is a model behavior. It's
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: not the sort of stuff that kids just invent, although
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: sometimes they can.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: So let's start with the.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: Sometimes that they can, and then we'll go into, Unfortunately,
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: the darker things that could be going on. There are
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: some kids who are naturally more exploratory. They haven't learned
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: appropriate limits, they don't know how to regulate, they're not
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: big on inhibition, they're curious, and they don't either understand
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: or respect personal boundaries. If this is your son, maybe
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: there's some kind of neurological challenge that's going on, some
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: sort of learning issue. Again we don't have details. Then
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: there is a different pathway to help than the one
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: that I'm focused on in terms of going and getting
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: professional help because there's some deviant behavior here. It may
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: simply be that there are inhibition and regular TIS concerns.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: I hope that's what it is. I really do. My
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: deeper concern is that we've got a seven year old
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: boy who has been exposed to troubling sexual behavior in
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: one of a couple of ways. Either it's been modeled
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: by what he's seen on a screen, or it's been
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: modeled by what has been done to him. There are
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: all kinds of external influences that are out there. Kids
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: copy what they observe. If they've seen inappropriate touching in
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: the media or at home or elsewhere, then they might
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: replicate it without really understanding why it's wrong. They'll know
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: that it's wrong, but they won't understand why. We know
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: that the average age of exposure to explicit content pornography
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: is around the age of eleven in Australia. The data
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: is not strong, it's not good quality data. But even
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: if it's right, fifty percent of kids under the age
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: of eleven are being exposed to pornography. It shows unhealthy
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: power dynamics. It can normalize inappropriate behavior before kids have
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: any idea at all of what they're seeing that is
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: a problem. And there is the awful risk that maybe
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: somebody has touched him or modeled that behavior for him,
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: or even just talked about it because he's been hanging
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: around with big kids in the neighborhood, up the street,
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: on camp, at school, on the bus, those kinds of things.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: There's one more place that this could have come from, Kylie.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: And again I'm uncomfortable sharing this, but it's a reality
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: that there are some kids who are just born with
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: what's known as a dark triad of personality traits. So
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: this is narcissism, machiavellianism, and psychopathy or sociopathy. It's pretty
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: rare that you see a seven year old sociopath, right,
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: but every now and again you'll find children who have
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: tendencies towards this. If this sort of behavior, not necessarily
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: the sexual behavior, but if there's this narcissistic or aggressive
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: behavior or other people playing out across contexts.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: Then that's what it could be. Here's the reality.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: Some boys test boundaries so that they can feel important
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: and feel in control, and what looks like actually explorative
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: behavior might actually be dominance behavior. So they're seeking status
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: through making other people feel uncomfortable and try to get
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: reactions that way.
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: So I don't want to make light of anything that
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: you've said. But my one concern for this little seven
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: year old boy is he number one gets labeled and
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: number two gets treated differently, which actually in essence makes
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: him feel worse about himself, right, And therefore he will
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: continue to act out in various ways because that's almost
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: become the expectation of who he is now. So the
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: only thing as a mother I would be suggesting, it's
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: just be cautious about how you move forward with this
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: in relation to how other people deal with him. Like
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: in the school setting, I've just watched it too many times.
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: This child gets ostracized from teachers, right, which then plays
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: out in the playground.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: It just yeah, yeah, I was pretty soft on whether
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: or not you should or shouldn't get help. My initial
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: thought is address it, deal with it, and if it stops,
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: your good. But if there is repeated behavior, if you
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: find out that he's got an Internet search history, that's
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: problematic if you find out. But pretty much everything that
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: I've talked about the status seeking behavior, the challenges neurologically
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: if there are any of those. The external influence is
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: the possibility that he's engaging in viewing explicit behavior or
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: has been touched. Every single one of those things makes
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: me think you need to get professional help.
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: And that's an absolute like please, don't get me wrong,
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: this has to be addressed. But the way we address
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: it actually is more important.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: Then It's not about putting a label on the Labels
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: belong on jars, not on people. So again the steps
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: just to be clear. Address it in the home. Initially,
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: do some exploratory work once you've just drawn that wine
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: in the sand. So make sure that he knows nothing
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: he can tell you. Nothing he can tell he was
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: going to make you stop loving him. You love him
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: much more than anything that he could tell you will
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: be safe. He's got to know. The conversation literally goes
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: like this, I want to ask you some hard questions.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: I want you to know no matter what you tell me,
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: you can literally tell me absolutely anything and I will
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: still love you. You are not in trouble, you are
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: only surrounded by love and goodness, and we want to
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: help you. But I've got to ask you these hard questions,
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: and then ask questions about whether he's viewed pornography, whether
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: somebody at school has shown it to himor whether he's
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: watching at home, whether somebody's ever touched him, whether the
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: kids at school are talking about sexually explicit things and
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: he's decided to act out on it. Ask the direct questions. Reassure, reassure, reassure,
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: you're not in trouble. We love you too much to
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: get you in trouble, but we do need to help
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: you to stop doing this, And also ask him, how
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: do you feel about touching girls and lifting skirts and
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: doing these things? How does it make you feel so
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: that you can really get an understanding of what's going on?
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: And how do you think other people are feeling when
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: you're doing it to them or when they're watching right,
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: they're watching this happen, How do they feel about you?
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: How are they going to interact with you in the future. Like, yeah,
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: perspective is huge.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: If you can stop it here and now, then it
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: doesn't need to go further. But if there is anything
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: that comes up in terms of modeling, abuse, viewing explicit
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: material in an ongoing way, status seeking, dominance, misogyny, or
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: a neurological challenge, then you absolutely need professional help. Tricky question, Elizabeth,
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: We hope that was helpful. Thank you very much for
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: asking the question. If you would like to submit your
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: tricky question, we've got that super simple system at happy families.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: Dot com dot you.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: You literally press the record button and start talking, or
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: send us a voice note to podcasts at happy families
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: dot com dot au. The Happy Families podcast is produced
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. More information and more
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: resources for making your family happier are available at happy
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: families dot com dot you