Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Toby Hadoke about his choice of The Web of Fear (4/6)

Transcript

Talks to Toby Hadoke about his choice of The Web of Fear (4/6) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:33
Hamster with a blunt pen knife for doing quicker Welcome back
0:38
to a Hamster with a Blunt pen knife, the Doctor Who Commentary
0:42
podcast presented by Joe Ford and special guests who he
0:47
invites along for the ride to talk through an episode or two
0:52
of Doctor Who. The current story under the
0:55
spotlight is The Web of Fear by Mervyn Heisman and Henry Henry
0:58
Lincoln, directed by Douglas Canfield.
1:01
I am your guest Toby Haydock. I've banged on about Doctor Who
1:06
on a semi professional level for a number of years and this is
1:11
the fourth commentary I've done on the Web of Fear and I haven't
1:15
even done it on my own podcast. So we will do 1/5.
1:20
We, we, we, we managed to spend a lot of Episode 3 ranting about
1:27
tweets that had annoyed us that we can't even remember who wrote
1:31
them, and talking about Paddy Russell's a woman who, should I
1:37
remind you, had nothing to do with the web of fear whatsoever.
1:40
Cat litter tray. So what delights have we got in
1:44
store for here? Michael wishes Rose Garden, who
1:48
knows, it could be. It could be Fiona Cummings
1:51
favorite chocolate bar or who knows the nocturnal peccadilloes
1:57
of the third Cyberman from the left in Silver Nemesis.
2:00
Let us find out where this conversation takes us.
2:03
However, we know from the build up and indeed from our private
2:07
conversations that this particular episode of Doctor Who
2:09
is one that has impressed both of us.
2:12
So I suspect it might be a bit of a mutual loving, and we might
2:16
be so patico that we climax in our appreciation at exactly the
2:21
same time. It's a thing that rarely
2:23
happens, but boy, it's special when it does.
2:26
Do you know? I know exactly where it's going
2:27
to take us and immediately away from the web of fear.
2:30
It's going to take us to the Sharder.
2:33
Oh, BBC announcement at the start of the animated Sharda
2:40
that came out. Now I know it's you because it's
2:43
the voice you've just done on this podcast did.
2:45
You not know that was me. Well, I suspected.
2:48
Yeah, that was me. Yeah, that was me.
2:50
It was doing sort of proper BBC RP, yeah.
2:53
There's somebody on a forum who hates everything I do who said
2:56
that that ruined the whole of Sharda.
2:57
No. Fuck off.
3:02
I was like, God, I think you need to.
3:03
I think you need to worry a bit less.
3:04
It's not there for very long. And.
3:06
I mean, I listen to a lot of you, right?
3:08
It's. Unfunny.
3:09
And it's like, it's not what's not supposed to be funny.
3:10
It was just supposed to be quite nice.
3:13
He probably apoplectic during that joking remembrance of the
3:16
Daleks as well, You know that. No, because, because it wasn't
3:19
me. He just didn't.
3:19
Like why madman? But yes, and, and you know what?
3:24
My claim I have a claim to fame, Joe.
3:27
I have a claim to fame because on the German version of Sharda
3:34
I play the same role and I do it in German.
3:38
Could you still remember it in German?
3:39
Nope. But, but yeah, because, because
3:44
I helped Bizarre, I helped the, I, I helped on those German
3:49
David, just because they emailed for getting in touch with that
3:51
people to write bits for the booklets.
3:53
And I just helped out as a, as a guy.
3:55
And, and I can't remember how it came out, but that that yes,
4:00
that I'd done, I'd done the announcer on the thing.
4:02
And I don't know if I suggested it or if somebody else did
4:07
because I wasn't dealing with the, the the dubbing people.
4:09
But anyway, I ended up being put in touch with the dubbing people
4:12
and I did. I played the set.
4:14
So I'm the only person that has played the same role in the
4:17
English language version and the German language version of a
4:20
Doctor Who did? You put on a German accent or
4:23
were you still doing it in the BBC English?
4:26
Well, I mean, I'd, I tried to pronounce the German correctly.
4:29
My father, my dad lived in Germany.
4:31
My mom can speak German. So I, you know, I was used to
4:35
German, the German sound around the house, as it were, when I
4:41
was younger. And I'm not, I'm pretty good at
4:43
languages. I, you know, I got my, I did my
4:48
French GCSE in the third year at school.
4:51
So that's two years early. So I, yeah.
4:53
And I did, I did Latin as well. So, but yeah, my languages
4:57
aren't bad and accents I'm not bad at either.
5:01
So I I tried to do it the proper German pronunciation, but I
5:07
suspect to Germany as it will and very helpfully, it will
5:10
sound like an Englishman doing hopefully a reasonable German,
5:15
but that but they will be able to pick up it's an Englishman,
5:17
which will actually suit the fact that it's ABBC announcer.
5:19
So even though I I can't claim that I was necessarily aiming
5:23
for that, I think that will help with what it was.
5:25
But I do like it's the only Doctor Who claimed to fame.
5:27
I actually proper Doctor Who claimed to fame that I have the
5:30
rest of all my other all my other Doctor Who claims to fames
5:33
are basically I was sitting next to that that person who was in
5:35
Doctor Who, whereas this one I actually did a thing.
5:39
I mean, after that announcement ends, it cuts straight into that
5:43
fabulous faux Dudley Simpson score from Marques and the Son.
5:46
Oh God, I just love that shadow so much.
5:48
Oh yeah, actually I've done that for your happy times and places,
5:51
you know, when you getting around to that.
5:53
Oh yes, yes, I need. I do need to.
5:56
Do that you already watched Jodie Whittaker.
5:58
For me that's enough I. Did spy fall?
6:00
Yes. Valley.
6:03
That was. That was.
6:05
That was harder than I. Think when you heard my reasons
6:08
and they were all the reasons you hated.
6:09
It I hated it. Yeah, those fucking shoes.
6:13
The shoes and, you know, revealing Sasha Dwan's colour.
6:19
You were like, what is he on? For God's sakes, You were still
6:23
calling me lovely though, to be fair.
6:25
Well, you are lovely. You are lovely.
6:26
But mad right? So I knew I could pull you away
6:29
from web affair. Where are we?
6:30
5 minutes in? You know, should we should we
6:33
try and watch this? Yes, I can't believe you didn't
6:36
know that was me. I even get a credit only.
6:38
I I did suspect because I spent a lot of time listening to your
6:41
voice, like an obscene amount of time.
6:44
We're basically in a relationship hoping.
6:46
I actually get a credit on the episode, which I'm not sure I
6:48
approve of because I wasn't in the original Sharder, but I'm
6:51
also you're not. There.
6:53
Jack to my my credit being on the the Tom Baker time tunnel in
6:57
in that font so I am credited on the episode.
7:00
I can't tell you how excited I was when he turned up at the end
7:02
of that, climbing up under the console.
7:05
Yes, that. Yeah, that was supposed to be a
7:08
surprise to everyone that bought it.
7:10
But of course then it was to me. Wanted to.
7:12
Oh, was it? Oh good.
7:14
I don't go on to fours. Why do you think I'm so happy?
7:17
But the the BBC kind of led with it in their in their publicity
7:20
for it. And I know Charles was very
7:22
upset because he'd wanted it to be a surprise for everybody that
7:25
bought it. But then some head honcho at the
7:27
studios went, but we've got we've got new Tom Baker footage.
7:30
We can do that as a press release.
7:32
It's like, no, it's supposed to be a surprise.
7:34
Explored me I I missed all of that I yeah I was so delighted
7:38
and that big grin on his face into the music just a.
7:42
Lot yeah, they I think they had a great day doing it I was
7:45
really surprised that he'd he'd agreed to do it but.
7:48
I'll keep saying it, You know, we are lucky.
7:51
We are very lucky. Lucky the amount of things they
7:53
do for us. Well, then he even got he even
7:56
got Mick McCarthy to do the Mike McCarthy to do the sound, who's
8:00
a sound retired sound recordist from the BBC back in the day.
8:03
But he got an authentic BBC sound recordist from the 70s to
8:07
do you know. So this is Charles Norton, who
8:09
who, you know, does just little touches like that, that just
8:13
take it that extra that that extra mile, you know?
8:17
Like when they did this, obviously we are so far from the
8:19
webosphere now when they did that Diana Daleks, you know, the
8:22
extra shots of Diana Daleks and they've got that old prop and
8:26
that old camera also in the thick footage matched and
8:29
everything. We are lucky.
8:32
Oh, I had to turn that cause 'cause the the some the some of
8:34
the physical Tom Baker in Shada is actually the actor Tim
8:39
Bentink, who's in The Archers, but is also the voice of the,
8:43
the, the monsters in the Pyramids 3 parter and a member
8:47
of the British aristocracy. But he, he's the body double for
8:50
Tom in some of the physical stuff in Shada.
8:53
And they did some motion capture as with episode 3 of Web of Fear
8:57
for the Power of the Daleks animation, the some of that
9:01
where they did. And I was asked if I could do
9:04
that because they've got my phone number and you know, they
9:08
know I'm easy and cheap or whatever.
9:09
So I could have been I, I could have been Doctor Who because I
9:12
think they, they needed somebody to do a bit of motion capture
9:15
for Patrick. Travis Body that day, that was
9:17
more important. Than yeah, I was, I was, we
9:20
were, we were having the extension built in the house.
9:22
So I was here and when I wasn't working, I was knackered and we
9:25
were, yeah. So anyway, I couldn't, I
9:27
couldn't do it. So I could have been even, I
9:29
could have actually been Doctor Who.
9:31
A credit in an episode and Doctor Who.
9:33
Yeah, I wouldn't. I don't think.
9:34
I don't know if I'd have been. I think he probably probably has
9:36
credited the motion capture people, but it's not me.
9:39
Oh, but also in Sharda I played. This is a great one.
9:43
I played when Tom Baker and Daniel Hill were doing some of
9:47
their scenes. I played Professor Cronotis and
9:51
Canine because. Oh, against.
9:54
Them, Yeah. So basically I played everybody
9:57
else when Tom Baker and Daniel Hill were doing, were doing
10:01
their recording, some of their recording sessions.
10:03
And there was 1 moment where if it hadn't had one final check of
10:12
QR or whatever, where there was a bit where I was Canine's
10:14
voice, which nearly ended up in accidentally because because
10:19
they, they thought it was the actual.
10:20
And then somebody went, Oh no, that's not the so.
10:22
Yeah. So apparently my, my David
10:25
Brierley was all right. Yeah.
10:27
You know. It wasn't that there.
10:29
The professor is dead. It.
10:31
Wasn't that mine, was it? Yeah.
10:32
I can't remember, but I'm not. I'm not.
10:33
I'm not. I'm not going to put it to the
10:34
test now. That sounded.
10:36
You just beat it. That sounded awful.
10:38
So I was, I was nearly kind of like, OK now.
10:40
But yes, I got I got to play Professor Cronotis opposite
10:44
opposite Tom Baker, which was a joy.
10:46
Oh boy, oh boy. I mean, do we have to talk about
10:49
Webber fear? This is so fun.
10:50
I know, I know, we have to talk about Webber fear.
10:53
Well, well, let's go into this because it's going to be a
10:56
delight. Who started this?
10:58
You. I walk out.
10:59
As in then in 321? Yeah.
11:05
You'll have to give me the name of that person on Gallifrey
11:08
Base. You know, I can make it look
11:10
like an accident. I have my ways.
11:13
It wasn't. Yeah, it's not Gallifrey base,
11:15
but let's not. Get it?
11:15
Oh, OK. Oh, I go, I go looking for
11:19
trouble. I know better now.
11:20
No, I don't actually. I'm still drawn to.
11:23
I'm still drawn to look at it. Well, it's partially because of
11:25
course I don't. It's not like I've never Googled
11:27
myself. I've never searched myself on
11:29
Twitter or anything like that. I know that way.
11:31
Madness lies. And I know from, you know,
11:34
living with somebody who's in the public eye where I will
11:36
occasionally look, look, look at stuff on her behalf or just, and
11:40
you see the stuff underneath it. And, you know, it's the comments
11:43
underneath, Yeah, that are just awful.
11:46
And you go. But.
11:48
But it is a way of going. So that means when I read
11:51
something I don't like about myself, I have to take it with
11:53
as much of A pinch of assault as I take it about, you know,
11:55
about, about somebody else, but you don't.
11:58
But I don't go looking for it. But I'm also, I am genuinely
12:01
interested in how people react to the DVDs and to the
12:04
documentaries and, and you know, and it's useful market research.
12:07
And so, so I'm, I don't go looking to go, oh, let's see if
12:11
everybody's being nice about me. I'm genuinely interested to see
12:14
if there's excitement about the, the latest Blu-ray box set.
12:17
But then inevitably you might have to read something about
12:19
yourself. I, I have to say I'm, I'm
12:21
largely, I'm largely OK. And quite often you might, I
12:26
might read the criticism and go, well, yeah, I agree with, I
12:29
agree with that. That's, that's fair enough.
12:31
It's when people are are sort of mean and and this particular one
12:35
is somebody that I've obviously took a dislike to me a decade
12:39
ago and just needs to keep saying it.
12:42
I think sometimes we will get off this, but I think some other
12:45
people are a little green eyed about opportunities that other
12:50
people have, but they have no understanding of how those
12:53
opportunities have arisen, you know, so.
12:56
But also, I can, yeah. But but I have to be honest and
12:59
say, you know, from an outside perspective as well, I, I can
13:02
see why somebody might go, well, what does he have to be on that
13:06
as well? You know, I, I, you know, I've,
13:08
I, I it constantly surprises me how fortunate I've been to get
13:12
as many opportunities as I've had.
13:14
And I'm obviously not going to say no unless it's to be a body
13:16
double for a short scene in an animation that I have to try 200
13:20
miles to do. I'll scour that list of extras
13:23
and I'll see what you're doing. All right, I'll get to those
13:26
first. Then.
13:26
Oh my God, I get excited. I know it's going to be good
13:29
quality when you're doing it. Well, look, I don't take it for
13:32
granted and I certainly don't think I'm owed a job or, or, or,
13:35
or or that I, yeah, that I'm owed A favour.
13:38
But I also know that I, you know, I don't phone it in and I
13:42
work very hard and, and, and, and that they, I also do a lot
13:45
more behind the scenes than than people might think that that
13:49
that saves a lot of time and effort with the job.
13:52
That, that a normal programme of the.
13:54
I'll tell you what irks me and it's nothing to do with me is
13:57
when we get a review of a documentary that we've made that
14:02
doesn't take into account the fact that that compares it to
14:04
sort of. And I remember a reviewer, I
14:07
think from Doctor Who magazine once saying to me, well, I just
14:09
review it like it's something that's on the television because
14:11
I think it should stand up to stuff that's on the television.
14:13
It's like that's really unfair because we, I mean, we literally
14:17
have a budget that's less than 1/10 of, of an equivalent, say a
14:21
television 1/2 hour documentary we do has the less than 1/10 of
14:25
the budget of a television half hour.
14:26
And, and you think it's OK for to, to compare us to one of
14:29
those? I think that's pretty unfair.
14:31
I say go and watch the extras from the original Arc in Space
14:34
DVD and then go and watch a documentary that's coming out
14:37
now with those fabulous location shots, you know, and they're
14:40
just stylish as fuck. Are these people?
14:43
Good grief, send me. Those, but I know that I do it.
14:47
Look, I do it with stuff that I'm not involved with and I
14:50
which is why I have to be careful sometimes because I've
14:53
I've, you know, in the past, I've watched a thing and then
14:55
casually put onto it that was a bit of shit or whatever.
14:58
And and then you think, Oh God, the person that's made that is
15:01
going to be really hurt by that. Isn't that the danger of all of
15:03
this podcasting, right? We're talking about people's
15:06
work all the time, and not always favourably, yeah.
15:10
Oh look, he's looking a bit. He's looking slightly dodgy.
15:12
There he is. He is a bit like my granddad.
15:16
Did you see that shot a second ago of all the web in front of
15:18
the camera and it was sort of breathing?
15:20
Yeah, it's phenomenal. Great.
15:23
I think there's a real sense of siege cheer.
15:26
I I love her, but and this we had that that was a clip that
15:30
that slight moment there was was one of the New Zealand clips and
15:35
and Evans does have his chin slightly Askew there and it did
15:38
make me worry that he was he was a girner.
15:40
But no, he's now Anne Travis has changed it that It's a shame we
15:44
don't have episode 3 because Anne Travis has suddenly changed
15:47
her costume and I did. It for the briefing, you know,
15:50
she wanted to look professional. I did have a slight theory
15:53
because I think she's, I, I think she has a rapport with
15:57
Patrick Troughton from this episode on that that she doesn't
16:02
necessarily I, I, I mean, I don't think she did.
16:05
But for my own amusement, I, I, I, I, I like to entertain myself
16:09
with the idea that Patrick Troughton and Tina Baker have
16:12
had a bit of a had a bit of a thing between between two of the
16:16
episodes. But.
16:18
We've Ashford Perrier as well then because they had a bit of a
16:21
rapport with her. Well, I I think I don't know if
16:25
I should say I think he I think he did OK have a have a thing
16:30
with Megan Jones in Fury from the deep.
16:33
I think I think they had a a moment in real life.
16:36
He. Was a viable account of he was a
16:39
luring man, he. Was a shagger is what I'm
16:41
saying. Yeah, it's unusual for me to be
16:45
so polite about these things. It's unusual seeing Nicholas
16:49
Courtney in this hat that he never has again, isn't it?
16:51
That this was, this was actually part of his character initially
16:54
and the, and the Stuart clan and all of that.
16:56
And but I I I actually rather like it.
16:58
What I find so shocking about this episode is I'm just so used
17:02
to Nick Courtney being unflappable throughout the whole
17:05
of the Peru era and the panic when he comes back and
17:08
everyone's dead and he's in total shock, isn't it?
17:11
Yeah. He's and he's.
17:12
Really having to give a dramatic performance.
17:16
And he's also quite suspicious. Well, yes.
17:19
Yeah, you know, he we're, I mean as in he's not suspicious of we
17:22
are suspicious of him. He's.
17:24
A moving finger with the Brigadier.
17:28
Oh, this scene now where you get the Doctor goes right up to the
17:31
camera and talks about the great intelligence.
17:33
Oh no, it's not quite yet, is it?
17:34
It is in this episode I think. But but Camfield really trusts
17:38
Troughton's face as well. And it is a really good face you
17:41
get, you get a lot of good, a lot of good value out of, of, of
17:46
Patrick Troughton's physiognomy. There's, there's 22 sort of
17:50
actors, 1 ones that are sort of a bit scared of the camera and
17:53
others. I say come on, bring it a bit
17:55
closer. Right?
17:56
Let's go. And Trout is that actor, isn't
17:58
it? He's not scared of the camera at
18:00
all. No, no, absolutely not.
18:04
Did you earlier on right? It's not just a little bit of
18:07
web they put over the victims. They are slathered.
18:10
Covered in this stuff and it's great and it and that's that to
18:15
me is always my favorite thing about doctor is when it takes a
18:18
sort of normal thing and and makes it really.
18:21
I love the gas mask child, you know.
18:24
Shadows in the library. Yeah, all, all of that.
18:27
So anything that is that here he is.
18:29
This is the bit, isn't it, Where, you know, the director
18:32
says get your leading man right up to the camera and, and it's,
18:36
it's a bit like how he was shooting in the TARDIS in
18:38
episode 1. You know, he really knows how to
18:40
position his actors. And that's all.
18:42
That's all done with rehearsal and and with.
18:45
This is the stuff you don't get in the animation, obviously.
18:48
It's the malleability of Drown's face.
18:51
Yeah, and if you even, you know, even take away the the the
18:54
animation we had for this story, but the the animations that we
18:57
have for for the stories that are completely missing.
18:59
You couldn't hold a close up of A1 actor talking in in quite the
19:04
same way and and have the same effect in in in animation.
19:07
You wouldn't have the depth or the sparkle.
19:10
And Trouten in particular, I think more than any other doctor
19:15
gives us, brings us so much extra with, with his face.
19:20
And, and there's, there's clearly so much more going on.
19:22
Those eyes. He's got that brilliant thing of
19:26
that, that, that innocence and that, that childishness and that
19:29
whimsicality. But those that darting
19:32
intelligence. And I remember talking to
19:34
somebody about, you know, shortcomings of actors and
19:38
acting and, and indeed doctors and so good, good actors can
19:44
fake a lot of things. But I think it's very hard for
19:49
somebody who isn't intelligent to fake intelligence.
19:53
I think if the actor is not intelligent, it's very hard for
19:57
them to, to give the impression of a, of a, of a character that
20:01
has those depths. And I think you really need to
20:03
have that as a doctor, that no matter how much the doctor acts
20:08
the fool or act or, or, but behaves eccentrically, you have
20:14
to have that whirring. And even better if you can make
20:17
it alien intelligence. Darting beneath the surface, and
20:21
I think the very best doctors have that.
20:23
You know, well, forgive me because I'll stay a moment here
20:25
for my personal favorite Doctor. But I think that's why Colin is
20:29
so good, because he's a very smart man.
20:32
Colin's a hugely intelligent man.
20:34
Is he your favorite doctor? Oh God, I've I've loved Colin
20:37
since I got that trial of a time in a box set 93.
20:39
My dad had just gone to prison and it took me away from my
20:42
world and I fell in love with him when I watched that set and
20:46
it's never gone away. I'll follow his whole journey
20:49
through Big Finish. He kisses me every time I see
20:52
him at conventions. He says I don't mind if you tell
20:55
me I'm your favorite. Anyone else because I don't like
21:00
favourites, but you can tell me I'm your favorite.
21:02
I adore him and I just think he's a terrific actor and
21:06
perfect for the Doctor. Yeah.
21:09
Oh, good. Oh, I'm pleased.
21:10
Oh, that makes me very happy. He was the first doctor I met,
21:13
so he holds this very special place in my heart.
21:15
Does does Colin? He's and.
21:19
And I disliked Peter Davison so much as a youth.
21:22
I've obviously put away childish things now, and Davison is
21:25
amongst my favorites, But because he wasn't Tom Baker, I
21:27
was crossed with him. So I was delighted when Colin
21:30
Baker entered the fray. I only just met Davidson two
21:33
months ago, you know, for the first time, right?
21:36
I just admired his honesty so much.
21:38
I went, will you do an intro for my mate's podcast?
21:41
But he's all about the 5th Doctor.
21:42
And he just sort of leaned forward and he went, That will
21:45
cost more. You know, I was like, I like,
21:48
you're a businessman. I like it.
21:49
Let's go. Wow.
21:51
Really. Oh, I admire honesty, Toby, you
21:56
know. And then he gave.
21:57
He gave, as you would imagine from Peter Davidson, a beautiful
22:01
performance for the camera. And and what was So what was
22:05
this? What was this?
22:06
Where what were the circumstances that you met him?
22:09
Oh, A. Convention.
22:10
It was in a Comic Con in Hastings.
22:13
Right, So what were you? Were you paying for an
22:15
autograph? No, no, no for for him to do a a
22:18
video introduction to my friend's podcast out in
22:22
Australia. Yeah, yeah.
22:23
But but before that. Because oh, yes, yeah, yeah.
22:26
Well, no. He thought I wanted an autograph
22:28
and I went no, no, no, I'd like a video please.
22:32
How much more does a video cost than an autograph?
22:34
Oh I think it was £30. I'm not sure it was worth every
22:37
penny because my mate exploded when he got that.
22:40
I put it at the start of every single episode from from that.
22:45
Oh that's nice, £30 well spent. Yeah, yeah.
22:47
But that's very, he's, he's, he's a, he's a very, he's the
22:51
one I know the least. Actually, Peter, even though
22:53
I've done, I've done a couple of bits with him.
22:55
I, I should, I think if you said to Peter Davidson, do you
22:58
remember working with Toby Heydo, he wouldn't, he wouldn't
23:00
have a clue who I was, whereas I think the others, the others
23:03
would. So he's the one I know the
23:04
least. But I, I, I think he's a, he's
23:08
a, he's a smart guy and a very, very good actor.
23:10
Whereas Sylvester's just nuts every time I meet him.
23:14
Yeah, he's so great with kids though.
23:16
I love he's brilliant with kids. He's brilliant.
23:18
He's, he's the most sort of doctorish off stage, if you
23:22
like, isn't he? I.
23:23
Mean I was just innocently having a selfie with my mark in
23:27
front of the TARDIS, but somebody had paid for a
23:29
photograph. Next thing I knew is question
23:31
mark umbrella was round my neck. He was yanking me out the way.
23:34
Yeah. By the way, you I was like, oh,
23:40
I love it. I love these moments.
23:42
Yeah, it's amazing. Blessed on the same day as well.
23:44
First time I met Blessed. Oh I've I've never met blessed.
23:49
I love your book about going up the mountain.
23:51
He went up the mountain. I wanted to go to bloody space.
23:57
Oh, it was great value. Oh dear, I totally lost track of
24:02
where we are. In the the doctors looking the
24:05
doctors got his silver gloves, which which are rather fun and
24:09
is this the tobacco tin that he's got?
24:11
Oh, one of one of the few examples of well, there are
24:14
there are a handful of examples of smoking and tobacco produce
24:18
in Doctor Who, which of course now would be less welcome than
24:23
overt sexual references. Bizarrely so.
24:26
The fingers pointing at Evans there because.
24:29
It's a plot point though, isn't it?
24:30
The tobacco tin. He's been going on about it ever
24:32
since we met him. Yeah, I'm a driver.
24:35
See, he's he is. I think he pitches it quite
24:40
right because it, this character could have been annoying and I
24:44
and he's supposed to be annoying in places and he is cowardly,
24:47
but I think I, I think he pitches it right.
24:51
He, he doesn't hear it. Now, here's a slightly annoying
24:53
thing, because look at this beautiful, crisp film.
24:57
This film is not out of phase. And what happens with film is if
25:00
it's not out of phase, it stays not out of phase.
25:04
But then when you cut back to the studio and you get a new bit
25:07
of film, you run the danger of it being out of phase and all of
25:10
the rest of the film is out of phase.
25:12
Oh, we. Didn't know that.
25:15
Now look at this very nice scene here with Captain Knight and
25:17
everybody else. Lovely, brave Captain Knight.
25:20
I mean, he's got no idea that in half an hour he.
25:22
Is going to be dead. And I remember reading, you
25:25
know, the book this, this, this, you know, this, this, this
25:28
period of the book where suddenly I think it's it's 11
25:33
scene after another. You lose Corporal Lane, Corporal
25:36
Blake and Captain Knight. It's very deliberate that they
25:39
go right. We're going to we're going to
25:41
cut down the cast by about 25%. What I find unusual about it,
25:46
though, is, is the panic of everybody when they realize
25:50
they're just they just can't hold them back, that all the
25:53
soldiers play that panic so well.
25:55
I felt really uncomfortable watching it.
25:57
You're normally in an action scene and doctor, you know, you
25:59
come from one side and the side men are going down another side.
26:02
You lose a soldier. But this time it's the Yeti just
26:05
keep coming. And no matter where they go,
26:07
where they hide what they do and and the pace of it, it just
26:11
doesn't give up. It builds momentum.
26:14
It's it's such a great sequence. But this, this stuff is great as
26:18
well that that they're having the camera in in the web itself,
26:22
looking out at these three guys is this.
26:24
What I love all the the Gurney in and it comes out covered in
26:27
web ah. And I, and I love this little
26:29
moment because, because Evans goes, I'm not going in there.
26:33
And Lane says I don't particularly want to, but he
26:34
goes, no, it's all right, sarge, I'll come with you.
26:37
And you go, oh, that's, that's quite sweet.
26:38
And Lane's sort of young and yeah, oh, that's what he says.
26:42
I'll go, I'm going by myself. And Lane goes, no, no, no, I'll
26:45
come with you, sarge. And he's not, you know, he's not
26:47
a big strapping hero or anything.
26:49
He's a, he's a funny little bloke and, and it's and he
26:53
doesn't, he doesn't make it back out alive.
26:55
It's really horrible. Well, you sort of go into
26:58
especially it's a six year old watching this and you just hear
27:01
this toe curdling scream yes, comes out slathered with that
27:05
web. Well, we've had it before,
27:07
haven't we? Where, where they're, where
27:09
they're listening to the, to the battle down the radio and people
27:12
die and, and there is something about it's like being behind a
27:17
blank, a sheet of glass, isn't it?
27:19
That was another clip we had from New Zealand, but couldn't
27:21
quite work out what it was because it was just that bit.
27:24
But where you can't do anything, but you know that the people not
27:29
far away are in terrible, terrible trouble.
27:32
Even just the masks, that sort of wartime imagery as well, yes.
27:36
Because they're horrible. Yeah, gas masks are vile
27:39
looking, but that is terrifying. I think it's absolutely
27:43
horrible. But and the fact that these guys
27:46
weren't attacked, they walked into that, which is horrible.
27:53
It's really grim. I would be with Evans on Oh,
27:57
You're. Right, they look.
27:58
It's in the face now. Yeah, I mean, it's still
28:01
stylish, but. I love that because that zoom on
28:04
the Yeti. I love a crash room.
28:06
Very melodramatic. Oh my God, it's in from
28:09
EastEnders. It's Derek Martin, yes, and when
28:12
we oh, is this some of this film now some of that film looked in,
28:15
but I'm no expert on in phase or out of phase.
28:18
You'd probably better talking to Peter Crocker about it, but I
28:20
remember him talking me through it and it being slightly
28:22
frustrating that some of this stuff was was how to phase,
28:26
which they which they can't or they couldn't at the time fix.
28:30
I think they've since found a way of of stabilizing it, making
28:33
it better. So so maybe when this comes out
28:36
on Blu-ray, some of these sequences might be improved.
28:39
Every single one of these guys is a stuntman.
28:41
None of them has a line in the script, but he he gives them
28:47
all, he gives them all a line, which is useful as a as somebody
28:53
wants the screen. So there's Terry Walsh.
28:57
And he looked after people, didn't he?
28:58
He did look at and and he liked his untrained, rough around the
29:03
edges thesps. I think he felt that they gave
29:05
gave, you know, Ken Loach is kind of the same that you get a
29:08
realism from that's Tim Codron, who's an Irish, an Irish
29:12
stuntman. He's the he's the gorilla at the
29:14
beginning of day of the Daleks. So you get you, you get a lot of
29:17
these guys who, who are, you know, not trained actors.
29:21
They're guys who were walk ONS or heavies or, or stuntmen that
29:25
that Douglas Canfield likes working with because they give
29:27
him a realism that he doesn't get from, from, from, you know,
29:32
rather trained actors or, or, or whatever.
29:35
So he was shooting from below there a second ago and it was
29:37
very like the the Chatham's location work in Resurrection of
29:41
the Daleks. You know, that's all urban
29:43
location work. And this sequence is absolutely
29:47
fantastic. And I don't know if you've heard
29:51
the commentary on the DVD. We realized when we were doing
29:54
it, and I was talking to Derek Martin, that we were recording
29:59
the commentary exactly to the day that they did this sequence.
30:03
So it was something like the 17th of December.
30:06
We recorded the commentary on the same, whatever, 47 years
30:09
apart or whatever. And that was just one of those
30:11
beautiful Doctor Who coincidences.
30:13
Memories of all. This hasn't he, Derek?
30:15
I love Derek Martin. He's such a nice guy considering
30:18
the career he's had since. Where he he is no.
30:21
But he talks about down the market with just as much
30:24
passion. He does and also when you when
30:27
you do a shoot with him, you know he'll pick up and carry a
30:30
bag with a tripod in it and A and a bit of camera equipment
30:33
and say all in it together lads, you know he's a real proper.
30:36
I love Derek. I think Derek's a really sound
30:39
guy. The bit where he goes oh I still
30:41
get checks now. Image of the fendile.
30:44
They come in the post all the. Time, yeah.
30:47
He's a great. No, he's a, he's a rough.
30:49
Car to them covered in the web. Fantastic.
30:52
The editing here is terrific, isn't it?
30:55
Yeah, it's, it's a it's a brilliant sequence.
30:57
I and you know, this is one that obviously it's a great part of
31:00
the book and and and it was an episode I would worried would be
31:06
a disappointment, especially as I hadn't been wild about the
31:08
Yeti design as well, which has which has that.
31:12
I love that that. Cut from the gun to the man with
31:14
all the webbing straight in his face.
31:16
And there's something about the quality of the film as well that
31:18
just makes it fit. It's crisp and it's beautiful.
31:21
Oh, this bit. Cap, Captain Knight has gone
31:24
with him and and I think you maybe might expect Corporals
31:28
Lane and Blake to be toast because they're that they're the
31:31
other ranks, you know, But Captain Knight has been such a
31:33
prominent character. Yeah, he's such a central role
31:37
and it's just so quick. He's dispatched so quickly.
31:41
Yeah, and I mean and, but they make it because this is a tiny
31:44
set as well. He does.
31:45
He doesn't. Even know they're behind him.
31:47
Oh my word. I know.
31:49
And it's and he's and he's kind of trapped and he's kind of what
31:52
the hell am I going to? And they kind of lift him up.
31:55
They kind of lift him up, don't they?
31:57
And it's or he anyway, you don't quite.
31:59
But he ends up sort of, yeah, that's horrible.
32:01
He would have been toast, the Doctor, wouldn't he?
32:03
Like he absolutely would have been killed if they weren't
32:06
summoned away. Yeah, because there was nowhere
32:08
for him to run. No, and it's, and it's horrible
32:11
and poor old Captain Knight and hasn't he got a thing in his and
32:15
that and that almost, that makes it more tragic as well, of
32:18
course, that he's. And that's a horrible way that
32:20
he ends up sort of dead there. Yeah, he it's, it's horrible
32:24
that. Oh, it's not just that he was
32:25
unlucky enough to get killed. It's that somebody had stuck one
32:28
in his pocket. So he'd been marked he was a
32:31
dead man, which is really horrible.
32:34
And it's a really creepy, insidious part of it, the, the
32:37
idea that they, they have these things planted on them.
32:39
I do love Trout and the pragmatist, so he just takes a
32:42
thing out nowadays. We be, you know, we lamented
32:45
over that woman we never met in the robot revolution for 10
32:48
minutes when she died, you know, like, do you know what I mean?
32:51
It's just like, he's dead, he's gone.
32:52
Move on like the danger is still here.
32:55
But in the in the book of this, they're running away and
33:00
Lesbridge Stewart says to corporate Blake, you know, don't
33:02
stand so close to me, we'll make us more and Blake gets shot and
33:05
dies. So when I first saw this, and I
33:08
know we've got the clip of a bit of this, haven't we, with the
33:10
Yetis walking through and and then them hiding above.
33:13
We've got a little bit of this from New Zealand, but the idea
33:17
that and you can only hear it on the soundtrack.
33:19
So I had no idea that Blake gets cramped from behind and then he
33:24
gets pulled, he gets pulled off and he gets bludgeoned today.
33:28
It's. It's horrible and he acts it
33:31
brilliantly as well, but it's it's really scary and that's
33:35
much better than and and Terence had no idea, obviously would,
33:38
would, would have had nothing to refer to.
33:40
And why should he have remembered how how Cam Field
33:42
staged it? And as I say in the script, it
33:44
literally says, you know, there is a fight.
33:46
Blake is killed, so that's all conceived by Canfield and it's
33:51
grim and I love it. It's the.
33:54
Panic. That nothing scared me more when
33:56
I was younger than adults. Panic.
33:58
Yeah, scared of dying chillax in caves when all that muds coming
34:02
towards yeah terrified me. That there were he's dragged
34:05
off. If I'd watched that as a kid, oh
34:07
boy it would. Have.
34:08
Yeah, There's no soft, Soft Cell.
34:11
And look at this. Nicholas Courtney defeated.
34:15
Yeah, and I remember listening to this when I got the
34:19
soundtrack CD, which I which I still have, and I've just been
34:23
putting all those on my new CD shelf.
34:25
And I was thinking, well, I'll never listen to these because
34:27
I've got, I've got the pictures, but I'm still not throwing them
34:32
away and I'm not hiding them in a box.
34:33
They're going to go proudly on my shelf.
34:35
Did you see then? So he came in and he snapped
34:38
straight to Victoria, and Jamie gently touched her on the back
34:43
because she was sort of admonished like that, just.
34:46
So many beautiful little moments like that in in we.
34:49
Need to, in fact, in the last two episodes, I think I'd love
34:51
to cover Victoria a bit. Yeah, sure.
34:55
There's definitely a conversation to have there.
34:57
I mean, God, there's been so much happening in this.
34:59
We haven't really talked about the regulars too much, have we?
35:02
I find that I, I tend to do that with my podcast.
35:04
I tend to overlook the things that we're used to and, and I
35:09
think the regulars often suffer in, in my podcasts because I've
35:13
always been more excited about the things that we visit.
35:15
And it means I take the regulars for granted a little bit.
35:18
And there we have, it's a, it's a Jack Watling.
35:21
You get paid by the episode. Jack Watling earned his fee.
35:26
And it will have been a considerable fee.
35:28
Jack Watling was not a cheap actor.
35:32
I'll have enjoyed what little he had to do this week for his, I
35:35
mean, the episode 280 or whatever.
35:38
And ended on a great Professor Travis moment.
35:41
He was attacked at the start of the episode.
35:43
Yeah. And then he just steals the
35:45
limelight and he. Yeah, not bad, eh?
35:49
That sequence in Covent Garden there that ran for about 7 1/2
35:53
minutes. That is an enormous amount of
35:55
film work for a mid episode of a six par.
36:00
When I first watched that episode, bear in mind it had
36:05
been quite a long day. I, I turned to the person I was
36:09
watching it with and I think I said this at the beginning of
36:13
when we talk about episode 1 and I said that is the best episode
36:17
of Doctor Who I've ever seen. Now, the fact that by then I was
36:21
jaded. I was used to disappointment.
36:23
I'd seen many magic moments of Doctor Who over and over and
36:27
over again to the point that I was probably over familiar with
36:29
them. The fact that Doctor Who existed
36:31
in a fresh new incarnation with new delights and modern program
36:35
making techniques and Doctor Who was a whole new thing.
36:38
And I love the new series. So, you know, I, you know, I
36:41
wasn't looking back as much as I had used to, particularly when
36:44
Doctor Who wasn't on and all we had was nostalgia, but I am, I
36:49
was so delighted by how good that episode was because it was
36:55
the one that had the potential to be the biggest
36:57
disappointment. And I do understand why enemy
37:00
made a lot of the headlines because I think people had it's
37:05
and I'd always championed enemy. I always felt the enemy was was
37:07
underrated and and. Showed one.
37:09
Floored me when I saw it and and.
37:12
Yeah, I, I, I always thought it was a more interesting story
37:15
than people gave it credit for. And it, it was scuppered
37:17
slightly by the fact we only had episode 3 and the fact that it
37:20
doesn't have obvious monsters. And also there's a bit of a, you
37:23
know, I, I, I, I'm interested in the psychology of how we like
37:26
what we like and dislike what we don't because you, you, we, we
37:29
talked about it a bit in the last strictly that we did where,
37:33
you know, people enjoy slaying sacred cows and story's
37:37
reputations go up and down because somebody.
37:39
No, I'm not saying it's duplicitous And I where somebody
37:43
will say, oh, I'm going to slag off this story everybody likes.
37:46
I'm not necessarily saying they're lying, but in the same
37:48
way that we can convince ourselves of a thing because we
37:51
like how it makes us feel. I like championing an underdog
37:54
and I like surprising people by going, well, actually I like
37:57
that story. That's a bit odd, a bit more
37:58
than I like that traditional story.
38:00
But also I am a bit boring in that I love genesis of the
38:04
dialects. I love the caves Vandrazani.
38:07
I have, I make absolutely no apologies for adoring stories
38:11
that everybody really likes. Although for ages I was very
38:14
anti Remembrance of the Daleks. And that's partially, and I have
38:19
to be honest, partially at the time because everyone loved it.
38:22
I quite liked being crossed with it.
38:24
And I really like the fact I like Greatest Show in the Galaxy
38:26
more than it because it's so easy to like the one with the
38:29
Daleks with all the nostalgia in it and blahdy blahdy blah.
38:31
And don't you know the Daleks says exterminate 13 times as it
38:34
goes up the steps. That was my measure.
38:35
But actually as I've got older I still love Greatest Show in the
38:39
Galaxy, but I think Remembrance of the Daleks is fucking
38:42
amazing. But I love the fact as well that
38:45
I can revisit stuff and and change my opinion.
38:50
But I'm also happy that when Weber fear turned up, I didn't
38:55
have to revise my opinion of it. And I, I, I think it's as good
38:59
as everyone said it was. Although I, as I say, I can
39:02
absolutely understand people who are expecting Webber fear to be
39:05
the best thing ever going. Oh, it's not the best thing
39:08
ever. There are issues with it and
39:10
people who were expecting enemy of the world to be really
39:12
tedious going. Oh wow, there's loads to this
39:15
but I still I would rather watch Weber Fear than Enemy of the
39:19
World even though I think Enemy of the World deserves a bit of
39:22
love. The Weber Fear is classic Doctor
39:26
Who It is and it is quite trad. It's military people fighting
39:33
monsters. But bear in mind Doctor Who
39:35
hadn't done this very much and in fact it's miles away from
39:38
what Doctor Who was originally doing.
39:42
And I understand people who think that actually the Pertwee
39:45
era is it takes it too far away from Doctor Who's original remit
39:48
and makes it a bit too like other, other stuff.
39:51
But then the glorious thing about Doctor Who is it has these
39:54
different periods where it does these different things.
39:57
And I like a bit of trad. A bit of trad means that then.
40:02
We have the license to have a celestial toy maker here, a
40:04
reminder over there, because it's got something that it's
40:07
kicking against. And when and when traditional
40:10
Doctor Who is done well, and this is traditional Doctor Who
40:13
done as well as it could possibly be.
40:16
Just even the black and white of it is better than the black and
40:18
white of I don't know why, I don't know how it works.
40:22
I swear of Tomb of the Cybermen. Tomb of the Cybermen.
40:25
Looks right Looks. Grey scale.
40:27
This looks black and white. Tomb of the Side Men is
40:31
monochrome. This is black and white.
40:33
I don't know I that's not my air of.
40:35
Expertise, I don't know, it's like in the 80s watching
40:38
Warriors of the Deep and watching Earth Shock, you know,
40:40
like, absolutely, you know what I mean?
40:41
Like, yeah, I I think the the people that do the lighting are
40:45
sorely underestimated that how much they bring to a story.
40:49
And Clive Layton wasn't a a usual lighting man for this sort
40:53
of thing. He was.
40:53
He was. He was given the opportunity to
40:56
do it as a, as AI don't think he was supposed to light it.
40:59
And his boss let him do it as a kind of sabbatical or change of
41:04
scenery or whatever. Unfortunately, I interviewed him
41:06
and he, he didn't actually remember that much about it, but
41:09
he did. He was one who'd offered himself
41:11
to me. He's, he emailed me because I
41:14
was, I'm on a sort of BBC tech OPS mailing list where they,
41:18
they sort of, you know, tell each other who's died and that
41:22
sort of thing. But they would occasionally
41:24
help, help me track, track people down and stuff.
41:26
And Clive Layton just dropped a thing up and said, oh, if that
41:28
guy who's interviewing Doctor Who people wants to, I, you
41:31
know, I, I did the, I did the lighting for the web of Fear.
41:33
So I interviewed him over the phone.
41:35
But actually he, he'd been convinced it had been done in a
41:37
different studio to the one it had been done in.
41:39
And so he didn't. He didn't remember an awful lot,
41:41
but still nice to touch base with him and chat to him.
41:45
You can design those underground sets to the hill, but if they're
41:48
not lit in a convincing way, we've seen many a Doctor Who
41:52
story, you know. Oh yeah, they're superbly lit.
41:56
I do love it when you talk about a classic show.
41:59
You're ambassadors of death, commentary on happy times and
42:02
places. Brought me great joy.
42:04
I mean, you were overreacting. Yeah, I know, but the ones I
42:08
listen to more on repeat though. You know the 4 episodes on
42:12
Warriors of the Deep? I mean, I must have heard that
42:14
six times Times Now, because I just know I'd like.
42:17
To have another go at Warriors, actually.
42:19
Oh no, it's wonderful. What's the fellas name who's
42:22
doing all the announcements like?
42:25
There he is again. He's doing every boy you know,
42:27
every. James.
42:28
Oh, James Coombs, parolee. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
42:31
Because, yeah. And he and he plays all the
42:32
different. Anyone that has to talk, it's
42:35
yellow. Yeah.
42:36
And you, you're almost apologetic at how much you're
42:39
enjoying it, but fuck, you're enjoying it.
42:41
You. Know I really like Warriors of
42:43
the Deep. I think I think it gets a lot of
42:46
stick I I'm I'm a sucker for a base under siege.
42:50
It's a It's a great template More.
42:52
Soldiers, Toby, you know. Well, I, I think because I was
42:55
brought up on, you know, our Christmas highlight films and
42:58
the, and the first things we started to get familiar with,
43:01
because a lot of the films I watch are films that I've
43:03
watched over and over again. I like the familiarity and, and
43:06
the ones that always appealed to me were things like the Poseidon
43:08
Adventure, where you have a group of characters in jeopardy
43:12
and you get sad when each one of them dies.
43:14
And and each one of them will die in a way that either
43:17
requires a bit of heroism or a fatal mistake or just an
43:21
unfortunate moment or Yeah. And so and so that, that to me,
43:26
that's, that's all I need sometimes is a group of people
43:30
in trouble getting picked off 1 by 1.
43:32
I don't really need anything else.
43:34
I just hear you coming. Oh, Karina, no.
43:37
Yeah, I was so sad when Karina died.
43:40
I really like Karina, bless her. Our bloody wish, warriors, as it
43:43
did look like that an adventure. Well, our sets are amazing.
43:48
Yeah, the sets are amazing. Our opening shot, somehow we
43:52
started and ended this episode away from the web of fear.
43:57
But that does seem to be the way both on this podcast and when
44:00
I'll talk to you. Do you know?
44:02
Yeah, well, sorry about that. No, don't you dare apologize.
44:05
People love it. But I suppose now we're not
44:08
doing it today, but I'm going to pretend that we are.
44:10
I suppose we should go on in and watch episode 5 of this
44:13
masterpiece. Yes, let's do it.