Latest / Skin Anarchy / Unveiling the Science behind Hypoallergenic Beauty Products ft. Dr. Carina Woodruff

Transcript

Unveiling the Science behind Hypoallergenic Beauty Products ft. Dr. Carina Woodruff · Skin Anarchy

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Hi guys, welcome back to another episode of your host Ecta.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I have the wonderful Dr.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Karina Woodruff here with me today.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: She is a board-certified dermatologist and also the founder of her very wonderful line that I'm really excited to introduce you guys to, um, Vetted.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome to the show, uh, Dr.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Woodruff.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to host you.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Dr.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Ecta.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: So excited to be here.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm, you know, I know that you have such uh incredible background in medicine and dermatology, and you are an allergy specialist as well under the field of dermatology.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm really excited to talk to you and learn from you in that regard, in addition to learning all about vetted.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I would love to get us started with um you telling us about how you got into medicine and why you chose dermatology.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: And if you could walk us down memory lane, that'd be a great place to start.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, oh my God, I haven't thought about this in a long time.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um but really it um so it I truly it all goes back to when I was a child because I um I had scoliosis and I had to have major surgery and I was 17, and it completely changed my life.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I it revolutionized everything uh from that point forward, um, improved my quality of life, improved pain.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was, you know, my self-esteem.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized how powerful medicine can be and what an impact a physician can have.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I think I always came back to that.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like I explored a lot of other things in undergrad, but um I just think it's such a it's such an honor and privilege to get to have that impact at work.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it it makes me feel um just like I'm doing something with my life that I'm so so proud of.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's so meaningful.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: So um it was my experience as a patient, and um, I never thought I'd do dermatology.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'd never been to a dermatologist before medical school, but I explored a lot of different things and then actually just um did a dermatology rotation and I absolutely fell in love with it.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: I love diagnosis, and that's a huge such a huge part of dermatology.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's a visual diagnosis, being able to solve a mystery.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's really how uh I ended up with the allergy testing because you know, we see so many patients that have eczema and we're giving them topical steroids, we're giving them biologics.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: And these patients a lot of times are you know, they're like they don't want that.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: They want to know why, why this is happening.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I love being able to do that with patch testing.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: And many patients were able to clear them.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really fun.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's um, it's like getting to play detective at work, and um, yeah, it's it's it's awesome.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's so cool.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know it's a really big topic, too, actually.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, um, in terms of like just you know, people reacting to products, and I I know you mentioned patch testing.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot I'm still trying to, you know, convince even my own family, like before you try anything, you have to try it, you know, somewhere else on your body and and do a little patch test because you know, we have so many things out here.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I I want to learn from you about that because you know, um, I know with you know OTC products, it's something that we, you know, when we trust the founder or we trust the person behind it, we don't really think about it.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot of times, as you know, you know, we can be allergic to things that we might not know about, you know.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, like if you were to tell us a little bit about, you know, um just allergic reactions that are common in dermatology, I I that'd be so beneficial, I think, to even myself and everyone listening, just to understand, you know, yeah.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: So contact dermatitis um is really uh it's a very interesting topic.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's incredibly common.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: One in five people at some point in their lifetime will develop an allergic reaction to something that they're putting on their skin.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's also super underappreciated.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I think even amongst doctors, a lot of people don't think about this.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it's, you know, it's very different than say peanut allergy, which those types of allergies are IgE mediated, usually develop within the first two years of life.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: So you're like, okay, I'm good with peanuts, I'm good.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's a little bit different, uh, different with allergic contact dermatitis.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, these reactions are delayed reactions that happen when your skin is exposed to chemicals that your T cells recognize.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: And repeated exposure to these chemicals that are sense, we call what we call sensitizers.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they're chemicals that you know your body can cause allergic reactions in the body, eventually causes your T cells to recognize those chemicals, and then you get an allergic reaction every time you're exposed to the chemical.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: But the likelihood of that happening actually increases with age.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think that's something most people take for granted that everything that we're putting in our skin, you know, the fragrances, the preservatives, emulsifiers, the metals we put in our skin, um, every time it touches your skin, um, it's an opportunity to interact with your immune system.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: And at some point in your life, you may become allergic.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: You may be one of those one in five people.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's, I mean, that's the thing that's so interesting to me about the the skin is this um the immune response of the skin, you know, because like um, as you said, it's so different.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, if I'm not a dermatologist, but you know, in my my expert, you know, my field, I always hear about the, you know, the other types of allergies, like you said, peanuts and you know, very acute reactions.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's I think for consumers, like um, we all really need to understand, like, you know, what is it that could trigger an allergic reaction for us in der, you know, from a dermatology standpoint, because sometimes I'm not gonna lie to you, Dr.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: Wood, if I go onto like Reddit or these forums and I'm seeing a lot of people are breaking out or that it looks like they're breakouts, you know, but like it makes you wonder like, was that like an allergic reaction?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think the other day, actually, um, I saw a video of a young lady and she was saying that because she had been using a moisturizer that she didn't like know was causing this.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: She she was using it for months and months, and she had these like really bumpy, like just really coarse skin, you know, like rough skin, little bumps.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, I had no idea that this was an allergy.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: I thought it was just my skin, you know.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: I thought I had little breakouts everywhere all the time.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, I switched my moisturizer and it went away.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where I'm like really interested to get your point of view on this is like, what can we do, you know, um, to make sure that we're not creating this kind of cycle, or how can we recognize, you know what I mean, if we're allergic versus we have some sort of uh infection or something?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's such a great point.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that is actually most of the people that come into my clinic, they've been struggling with rashes.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Usually contact dermatitis presents with eczema.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there are other types of, you know, rashes that rarely can happen, but usually it's like scaly bumps that are very itchy.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it is very hard to differentiate based on what it looks like.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Is this just your immune system acting up?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're maybe you had eczema as a child, or now have you become allergic to something that you've been putting on your skin.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing that makes it really tricky is unlike like with peanut allergies, where like you eat, you know, you know, like you're you eat the peanut and then you're you start having hives or anaphylaxis, these reactions are delayed.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: So they can happen like 48 hours after the exposure.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so, and and the chemicals that cause these reactions are ubiquitous.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, for example, fragrances are actually a very common cause of reactions, and they're in, you know, it's in your shampoo, it's in your face wash, it's in your cleanser.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so, how would somebody even figure that out?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're getting exposed to the trigger like multiple times a day, you know?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it's super tricky.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: The way that we figure it out, of course, is through a process called patch testing where um we test, you know, we we place adhesive patches on somebody's skin with the individual chemicals.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: We leave it in place for 48 hours, and then we look for a delayed reaction.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it is like you said, and that's what, you know, I've personally suffered from contact dermatitis, and um uh my my co-founder, Dr.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Fox, did as well.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, I will tell you about that later.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: But that was one of the things that really compelled us to do this because you realize like you were not thinking about this when you're doing that 10-step skincare routine, but there are risks, and once you're allergic, you can't get rid of it.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: You have to then the rest of your life find products that don't have the chemicals.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, yeah, so it's it's hard to find out.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: But the way that you can limit the chances of this happening is by choosing products that are truly hypoallergenic.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to actually ask you about that because what is truly like what is the definition of being like hypoallergenic as a product?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like what should we be looking for?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because I mean, we know that there are so many ingredients now, you know, in every product.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like every time you pick up a skincare product, there's like so many ingredients.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, for a consumer to pinpoint what they're allergic to, that's gotta be so hard.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: So if you could walk us through the definition of uh, you know, being a hypoallergenic product, that'd be great.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and so hypoallergenic, there is no formal definition or criteria, right?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like every these chemicals that can cause allergies, um, what we call sensitizers, some of them are likely to cause allergies in a lot of people.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so those are strong sensitizers.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that would be something I would say is not hypoallergenic.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then there are things that are like pretty, pretty innocuous, but in some people will cause allergies, people who are very sensitive.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so it's hard to say.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what's important to know is that the FDA does not regulate the term hypoallergenic.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you go to, you know, CBS, Walgreens, and you have maybe you have eczema or you're more mindful about ingredients and you start looking, you're gonna say, you're gonna be like, oh, well, I can pick a product that says hypoallergenic, and surely this was somehow uh vetted, right?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: There's no minimum definition.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so um many of those products are, but many of them are not.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, and unfortunately that's because there's no regulation.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's important to know that that's different from the situation in Europe and Canada, for example.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: There's a chemical that I won't bore you too much with my chemical stories, um, but this is a pretty shocking one, I think.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's a chemical called methoisothiazolinone.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's a preservative, and it's caused these like epidemic of reactions uh over the years.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's now been banned in Europe and in Canada in leave-on products like a moisturizer and in cleansers and things that wash off, it's been restricted to 15 parts per million.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in the US, there's no regulation.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so believe it or not, it isn't, it is still in a bunch of our products.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's still weakly a cause of contact dermatitis in my clinic.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I've even once in a while found it in products that are like dermatologist approved or hypoallergenic.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's a very, it's very challenging for consumers because I think there's a lot of misinformation out there.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would say an easy thing to do if you want to look for stuff that's hypoallergenic is starting with fragrance-free because that's a little bit easier to identify.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, I didn't know that.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know that that was found in so many of our products.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like that is the case, right?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, I feel like Europe and Asia are so far ahead with their regulations than we are.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: I just I just wonder like why we are not catching up, you know, faster.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like in terms of FDA, kind of, I mean, I know FDA is stepping in now, but I wish they were just things are more regulated.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: I really do.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because it it needs to be.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know so many people that have had terrible reactions, you know what I mean?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Whether uh it's like immediate or delayed, like you said, it's always like I've always known people that have like either and they always say, you know, I have very sensitive skin, but then that makes you also wonder, you know, is it because you have very sensitive skin or is it just because you've been using something very sensitizing for a long time, you know?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like your skin, yeah, it's easily triggered at that point.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I want to ask you, you know, um, I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about, you know, Vetted Derm Lab.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: I know that's your brand, and I um, by the way, I I absolutely adore it and I want to learn more about it in terms of why you created it, what was the process behind it, and you know, the real vision, if you could share that with us.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um basically, you know, I uh I worked with my two co-founders, Nina Botto, Lindy Fox.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: They're the three of us were are all dermatologists, and Dr.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Botto and I do patch testing, contact dermatitis, and um, Dr.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Fox is like a world-renowned medical dermatologist.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Botto is was actually my mentor in patch testing.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, she's like the most generous and amazing clinician.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we were kind of brought together through this serendipitous situation.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we were all at UCSF together, um, and um Dr.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Fox developed uh contact dermatitis, and um, you know, Nina patch tested her.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: And um, then I also had, I actually posted about it the other day.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: I had like this horrible case of perioral dermatitis, would not get better.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: It was so embarrassing because I'm like a dermatologist.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: I was a resident at the time, and Nina patch tested me, and then I found out I was allergic to a bunch of stuff and um got better.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: And Lindy and I um realized when we, you know, when we had to start looking for products that were hypoallergenic and didn't have our allergens, that there were very few options um in terms of like high performance, truly hypoallergenic skincare that didn't feel medicinal, you know, that gave you a beauty experience and allowed you to kind of indulge in that experience and do something anti-aging for your skin.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that sort of started the process.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's something we see every day in clinic.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then like we kind of just were like, why?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is crazy.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: We're all academic dermatologists, you know, we do research, none of us are on none of us are on social media at the time.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we were like, but we should just do this.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is so important.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: There's a gap in the market, and you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of people creating products, but there's nobody out there that has the particular expertise that we have where we we literally talk about chemicals all day in our practice um with cash testing.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: And we we just felt compelled to solve this clinical problem for our patients.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: So we kind of did it backwards.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I love that you actually went and had a problem that you were solving that you actually experienced.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of times, um, you know, as clinicians, like we can all we can often forget that you know, there's a whole there's a gap between how someone's feeling, you know, you know what I mean?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like the patient's feeling a certain way versus the way you see it as a doctor, you know what I mean?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's a really unique story that you have that, you know, that you it's founded in experience, um both obviously professional and personal.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's huge.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so what were what were some of the things like for Vetted that you wanted to keep out of the formulas?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what were the the big no-nos for you in terms of ingredients?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so we have a very long list on our website, but basically we were um you know, the the main new addition is very strict criteria of hypoallergenicity.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: So we basically excluded all the common chemicals that we patch test to that we know cause reactions in people, um, which meant that we had to find different surfactants and different preservatives and had to get creative, you know, things that are less commonly used to make the formulations work.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but we also, in addition to that, so we did, you know, we used all the epidemiologic data that we have.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, Nina is part of this very prestigious research group that collects data on patch test results in North America, and then they publish these large, you know, every year like updates on like what are the common allergens.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, in addition to using all that data, we also wanted to um engage with the concept of clean beauty when we thought about our chemicals.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, that's a big part of what we wanted to do too, because I think we we we see we saw a lot of promise in the clean beauty movement, um, but we felt like this concept was missing.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we know that, for example, a lot of clean beauty, there's research that clean beauty products, um 94% of them have common allergens.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so we wanted to incorporate that.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: So other things that we included in the vetting process was, you know, we we wanted to look at data about sustainability, was something ethically sourced, um, is it toxic?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, is there actually credible evidence that this is an endocrine disruptor?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, is this so we would try to sort of vet it on all those different tiers.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then the few chemicals that made it through are the ones you see in our formulations.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's interesting because I think that there's this real, like, I feel like it's it's happening right now in the industry, and maybe you've noticed it as well, but I think a whole category is forming, and I like to call it like clinically clean beauty.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I the reason I say that is because it's founded by professionals such as yourself.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's created a whole niche that's being created where people are now realizing like you don't have to compromise efficacy, you know, you don't have to compromise results and actually getting what you want out of your skincare.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: But then you also know that it's clean and it's still vetted by dermatologists.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's backed by dermatologists, it's something that works.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, you're not gonna harm yourself.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's a very interesting category.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I'm like, I'm really intrigued by, you know, the the whole hypoallergenic thing and the response that or the sorry, the route that you've taken because I think it's very novel, you know.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, a lot of times when you see these kind of brands pop up, it's really under that umbrella.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, clean has had this very misleading umbrella, I think, with the term clean beauty for a long time.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I I've just never been a fan of it as a consumer, but I am a fan of, you know, something created by someone such as yourself and your team and your colleagues.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, that is it rooted in science, you know, but it's just not gonna make you, you know, have allergic reactions or break out unnecessarily and stuff.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's huge, you know.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I I really applaud you for that because it's definitely a good, I think a new niche in our industry.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and we that's exactly you you perfectly captured it.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: We thought, hey, clean beauty is awesome, the concept, right?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like the I'm a we're all moms, right?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really informed my thinking about everything I do.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, we have a footprint on the planet, the beauty industry has a footprint.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: I want to make sure that you know, we are having a good impact.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, like sustainability, recyclable, that's all, you know, non-toxic, that's all awesome, but a lot of it is not evidence-based.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, our experience was like these clean beauty products, one, they don't really work.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: And two, like essential oils are super sensitizing.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it's actually like I see every single week patient come patients come into my practice and they're like, Well, you know, I've I've they come in with their suitcase, they're like, I've spent thousands, I've switched all clean beauty and my eczema is still out of control.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I just don't understand.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, it's probably because actually you switched to clean beauty products that your eczema is out of control.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: So we wanted to not have people make that compromise.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: And the piece that you mentioned then is like, you know, we're like, we know what works.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of evidence behind vitamin C, retinoids, you know, niacinamide, ceramides.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're like, it was avoiding all the bad stuff.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then like, we should formulate products with stuff that there's a lot of evidence for, not like, you know, not stuff that's like hyped up and gimmicky and you know, it's exciting one day without a lot of evidence and gone the next.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: No, exactly.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm glad you did that.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you brought up a really like one of the ingredients you brought up is like very near and dear to my heart.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: I've done a lot of like actual, like, you know, bench research on it as well, um, and written papers about it, and that's niacinamide.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I I kid you not, every time someone wants to like, you know, come down on niacinamide, I feel like I'm it's like like personal protector.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I love niacinamide.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's just such a great, like, niacin is just so great.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of the ingredients that you mentioned to add to your point, like, they're so you're right, they're tried, true, and there's data.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, we can't argue with that at the end of the day.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if you have about 50 papers proving the efficacy of something, like you have to go with that, right?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and and the scientific mind comes in.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's what kicks in when you see these ingredients that are working.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I love seeing brands like yours that are saying, no, we're going to stick to the stuff that's working, we're gonna stick to the stuff there's actual research behind.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're right, clean beauty.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like it has been for so long this playground of made in the kitchen beauty, you know what I mean?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like made in someone's freaking barn, you know.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't, it just like I don't believe in that.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, as a scientist myself, I can't sit here and say that you can make a skincare line in non-controlled environments, you know what I mean, and add whatever you want and all that stuff.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's just not logical.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so I don't I don't want it on my skin if you made it in your kitchen.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: I know me neither.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Me neither.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think there's nothing wrong with us boldly being able to say that, but you know, it's really, really nice to know that there are, you know, um, entrepreneurs, you know, slash doctors like yourself that are taking it on now.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're taking the space on and you're saying it can still be clean, but we're gonna do it right, you know.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, screw the bullshit.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's great.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to ask you like, how many SKUs are in the line and how did you know, like, you know, starting off, this is what we want to create and this is the amount of products we want to make, or how
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: that process yeah so we basically were like we we want to give people what we do every day like we want I want to create a product that I want to use every day and is everything that I'm gonna use you know so we made a clean we have five products five SKUs we have a cleanser um we have an our M1 moisturizer which is a lighter moisturizer um you know some people like to use it during the day um it's it's great if you have more oily skin our M2 is our rich moisturizer um it's packed with like phospholipids and um is really rich um I like to use that at night you know if if some people like to use it morning and night if you have more dry skin or more mature skin.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then we have our two serums which are our vitamin C serum um which is you know we like to use in the morning with sunscreen and then our retinoid serum.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: And truly I think if you ask most dermatologists those are the things they do.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like most dermatologists are not using toner we're not using like hyaluronic acid um there's a lot of other stuff you know Bacushial, whatever like those are kind of the tried and true ingredients with a ton of efficacy behind them.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: And we were like if you're gonna invest in a product invest in something that you know is going to work and it's high quality and that that's what I do every day.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I and um that's what we started with.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: We have dreams of additional SKUs but you know we this is sort of where we landed in terms of like what is absolutely essential to offer as a starting point.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting I like that and I I think that's that's a fair range that's nice that you have a you know you have options but it's not like too cluttered.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: I like that you know because I think there is a lot to be said about brands that have like about 50 different products you know like in not in the best way because I think you're just confusing people at that point you know and I I'm not a fan of that but I think you know when you give the option of a lighter and a you know more like richer option in terms of moisturizers or serums I think that's fair and that's a good thing to have that.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: And more importantly I want to know um you know because you are using these like tried and true ingredients I would love to hear about what your version of like a good retinoid product is like what do you think or well what went into yours you know if you could explain that because a lot of times we get questions about retinol and retinal or any of the vitamin A derivatives and people always ask me, you know, Ecta, is it important?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like do I need a retinoid?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like well I'm not a dermatologist so now that I have you I want to ask you you know what is a good retinoid product?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I mean you know I think um if you're gonna do anti-aging uh that is the most apt like that's the essential product you've got to do.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: It just has so many benefits for the skin.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in addition to anti-acne it's um you know smooths out like evens out skin tone improves texture all the things that uh associate we associate visibly with aging retinoids address.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's that's something is that's in the core of my anti-aging regimen that I recommend for all my patients.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's two things you want to be looking for.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: One, you want to look for the most powerful retinoid that you can tolerate for your skin.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you are someone with oily skin you've never you know you don't have irritation then go for tretinoin you know um the prescription strength and that might work really well for you but if you are someone with more sensitive skin and every time you use tretinoin you get days of peeling and you can't use it more than twice a week then it really makes sense to find a retinoid that your skin is able to tolerate on a daily basis because consistency is what's going to translate to results over time.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we use hydroxypineclone retinoate which is a newer retinoid that um targets the retinoid receptor directly and it's been shown in studies to not only be more stable than other over the counter retinoids you know in terms of like stability to tempt you know to against things like temperature and um oxidation over time but also it's a lot less irritating.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: And in some studies at high concentrations it's comparable to tretinoin so it kind of ticks all the boxes and I really think is is a really exciting ingredient that I think is going to blow up.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm starting to see a lot of other brands incorporate HPR as well.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: But then then there's the other piece because if you're putting something on your skin that's going to exfoliate your skin, you know, and kind of in a way expose your barrier a little more, you want to make sure that you don't have other things in there that are sensitizers.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so and that's what I see in some of the other brands that have HPR or have retinoids.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you have a retinoid but then you're putting fragrance you have propylene glycol you have vitamin E.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: And you know those are the things over time you're putting that in your skin over and over again and you're gonna increase the risk that you're gonna get sensitized.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's what we try to do with our retinoid we have the HPR we have squalin which helps repair the barrier so it kind of nicely balances out that like peeling and dryness that retinoids can cause um and it doesn't have any of the other common sensitizers that could be a problem for you.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: I love that yeah I haven't heard of HPR yet and that's interesting that you mentioned that because I literally was making a video the other day for my TikTok where it was about trying to explain to people like the different pat you know different steps of turning vitamin A, you know, into actual tretinoin that binds to receptors and all that good stuff.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: But and that's interesting that it binds directly to the receptor so the potency is probably a lot higher than your conventional retinal products then.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah so I'm curious about that because wouldn't I mean see this is this is where I get a little like it get becomes a gray area for me because um I feel like when products are very potent and they're working you know for example like you said at the receptor site is that something we should be mindful of you know um as consumers in terms of allergy and reactions like can that in increase the risk of having allergic reactions or does it actually lower it?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well I think it's a little bit more complicated because so as an allergen uh retinoids in general are very they're not really a common cause of allergies but they are a common cause of irritant dermatitis.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not um the the the effects of retinoids aren't due to you know T cells recognizing the retinoids and then causing an immune response when they're exposed.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: Usually it's just because they cause all this like epidermal turnover and then you get scaling and irritation.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: And in the studies it actually was a lot less irritating than tretnoin.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's the sort of reason why for us it was kind of an optimal candidate for our retinoid for a retinal serum because it is so much less irritating.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: And we also have ongoing clinical trials which we should be um you know publishing on our and and uh reporting on our our site um in the next few months I love that thank you for answering that yeah because I'm I asked because I am like for example me I am uh allergic to benzyl peroxide and I kid you not whenever I talk to any germ they're like oh you're you're joking I'm like no I really am I'm very I'm terribly allergic to it the only skincare uh ingredient I can't use and you know um I've had so many times where I've gone to germs and they've prescribed it to me and um you know in my younger years I'd use it right and then I didn't realize I was older that I was allergic to it because I was using it in other OTC products and I didn't know that it had it.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like oh my gosh I am really allergic to this you know and it's a common ingredient.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's a common thing that you're prescribed you know from the doctor.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I ask and I think it's you know again it feeds back to what you were saying where it's like you know we just have to we have to know you know what is known to be a you know an allergen and what's not and I remember when I had looked into like benzoyl peroxide for example I noticed there were a lot of people that had an allergy to it you know so I think it helps to kind of dig in you know if you're a consumer like dive into like these ingredients and and understand if you are or not allergic to it yourself so that you can you know look for it further.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: But um that's really cool about the retinol though I'm I'm I'm interested to see you know how HPR like the results of it uh as compared to normal that's really cool.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah yeah and you're absolutely right by the way benzoproxide is commonly an irritant but it can also be an allergen and we patch test to it sometimes so if you were here in in Dallas I would patch test you to prove yeah no I'm I'm sure like I I I just think that people didn't believe me because it was so you know what I mean so readily available you know so and prescribed so but yeah I mean I think it's definitely a better world now that we live in and you know you people go the extra mile to figure out these kind of things and and that's great.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I I want to actually ask you I know that you have vitamin C as well I think um is it a special kind of like stabilized vitamin C that you're using or um what's up with that yeah for sure.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: So we have um it's a combination of uh tetrahexal desal ascorbate and ascorbal tetraisopalmitate okay I said it's hard to say it sometimes um these are uh lipophilic vitamin C derivatives and so we know that you know one of the issues with vitamin C's that they often don't even get absorbed by the skin and so these lipophilic derivatives we know are absorbed by the skin um and we stabilize them with ferulic acid which has its own antioxidant properties um but and and it's a 15% concentration so it's you know comparable to some of what we call medical grade which by the way isn't a real term either but it's comparable to some of the medical grade really expensive vitamin C serums but doesn't have um any of the sensitizers like propylene glycol fragrance vitamin E that are often added in there to neutralize the smell of the therulic acid or you know um for added potential added benefit like vitamin E for example but can cause allergies right that no that's really cool though because I know vitamin C has come a long way you know we've come a long way with vitamin C now I think in terms of formulation so that's good to know that because you know for me personally I cannot stand like the the products that have like say like 20% vitamin C.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just like why why are we doing this like we do not need 20% vitamin C but I think it's important to know like you know if an ingredient is stabilized versus not and that'll help a lot in your consumer decisions because you want results at the end of the day and especially with something like an antioxidant you know vitamin C is known to be an antioxidant as all of us know for everyone listening you want the the you know the version of the molecule that's going to last long enough to be an antioxidant you know so uh yeah absolutely and that's that's so right Ecta it you know you see these vitamin C serums um that are packaged with droppers and you're just like every time you open that bottle it's getting oxidized and it turns yellow and you know then it doesn't work anymore.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it's one of the most challenging things I think for consumers and I totally get it.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean as a dermatologist it's like it if it wasn't if I wasn't a founder and I had spent so much time deciding what to put on my product it's so hard to figure out what is stable you know and then like pure vitamin C sounds so great but you have to have such an acidic pH uh that it is so irritating for most people to have pure vitamin C in their product.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: And like you said it's like 20% of vitamin C sounds fabulous but then if you can only use it once a week because you start to break out in rashes if you use it more often then again not going to translate to results.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly yeah exactly and it's it's that consistency that that really matters and you know that actually you know I have a big question for you about you know just if you do have sensitive skin or you're having an allergic reaction to something that you've used, what do you recommend you know people do in that situation?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Do you just completely leave your skin alone?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean do you even cleanse your skin at that point or would you recommend just using water?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you're having a reaction I would the first thing I would do is like take away the actives you know vitamin C and retinoids because those things can definitely be they're they're common causes of irritation serums all that um I I you know we still want to cleanse you still want to moisturize but you I would use stuff that's really basic not you know non-soap uh stuff that's hypoallergenic and try to do kind of like a skin diet where you kind of really pare it down and um try to see if you know adding back one thing at a time you can figure out what the trigger is but the funny the funny thing that people don't realize is like it's not just about what you put on your face like your hair products for example can also cause rashes on your face.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: Your acrylic nails can cause rashes in your eyelids.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very complicated um but what I usually do when my patients are having reactions, you know, we treat them we give them some topical medications I put them on what I call like a skin diet which is like a list of products that are like safe you know that I personally vetted the ingredient lists.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then we see if they get better.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times they do and then that's when I say hey you're probably allergic to something in your products so we should patch test you.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: I love that and I I I like that approach I like what you said about hair washing as well I think that's huge actually because and not talked about enough in my opinion I remember even as a teenager that was one of my problems I was using like one of those huge like uh you know like the big drugstore brands and I was always breaking out and I think when I switched shampoos is when I really saw like a difference in my acne you know like I hadn't even like even though I was using products for my acne treatment you know I was like doing what my germs said I was on antibiotics I was doing all these things but the shampoo I was using was causing me to break out and it was I had no idea you know like at all and you know I've known people that have had like for example I don't know if you've seen it a lot in your practice but like uh the scalp like they get little bumps all over their scalp and they're like why am I getting this all of a sudden and you don't you don't realize it but it's shampoo you know sometimes like it's your hair care product.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that's huge.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a huge conversation that the industry needs to have you know in terms of like what people are putting in these hair care products because they're definitely causing reactions.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Oh totally and you pair like powerful surfactants that are meant to cleanse remove all the oils you know cleanse your scalp and a bunch of sensitizers and you've got a recipe for disaster so yeah you know our vet it's maybe going next yeah no I was gonna ask you that's good though that's exciting you just gave me a really cool sneak peek into that I mean I I really love your brand though.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it my skin's been loving it you know it's really really easy on the skin and like I said you know I really believe in this new niche you know it's clinically clean skincare.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: It works and you know for everyone listening out there if you are somebody who has really sensitive skin or even somebody who worries about you know exacerbating something you already have like eczema or any kind of condition this is the brand.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean this is a wonderful brand it will not cause any you know further problems or even create problems because I know right now not even just fragrances, Dr.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: Woodruff I feel like the fragrances, people are becoming more privy and understanding that you know we don't want fragrance in our product but I'm noticing even with the preservatives that certain brands use, you know?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: So like it's huge it's a huge thing.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think even preservatives are becoming gated now to where we need to reevaluate that whole model and think of what what are we using?
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: But your brand is so good.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's it's so so gentle but it's it works and I I've really loved it so far.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that makes me so happy I mean it took so long for us to find a lab that was willing to work with us because they were all like you guys are crazy.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: We don't do it like that.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: We tell you what goes in the product you tell us what the product is supposed to be like like reverse engineering you know and um finally we found a wonderful lab.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I can tell you Dr.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: there were so many iterations because all of us it was just so important for us that we created something that we ourselves wanted to use you know and um and and I we landed there like we we all love it.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: That is what I use all the time um and I'm so happy to hear that you enjoyed it too.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely no I love the brand and for everyone listening um I will be you know tagging obviously everything in the concept art for this episode but I really urge you guys check out Vetterm Lab.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great line it's a great set of products and like Dr.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: Woodruff mentioned there's something there for you you know it's it's just enough in my opinion you have just enough skews that are it's versatile enough for you to find what works for you and again you know especially I don't know if anyone else is like this but for me my skin is very finicky in the winter months you know it's really like as if I have brand new skin.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I have a a whole different set of problems you know that arise in the winter.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I think for the winter I always gravitate more like gentle lines, gentle products, you know, things that are just not going to make it like freak out.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I I can definitely see myself just being on this routine for the winter and using vetted and being you know content because I think that's what all you really need is like really good products that work and as long as they're not messing with your skin or drying it out in the winter I think it's it's solid.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm a huge fan.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I I I hope that everyone listening you guys check it out.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: I will tag everything there but if you have any questions for me or any questions for Dr.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: Woodruff and her team please reach out let us know we'll pass them along but Dr.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: Woodruff it's been such a pleasure chatting with you.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: You too this was so much fun thank you Dr.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Ecta thank you and for everyone listening I'll be back next time.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys so I hope you love that episode please make sure to hit subscribe if you're tuning in to us on any podcast platform.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: We are available on so many different platforms so wherever it is that you're tuning in just go hit subscribe you will be immediately notified when we publish new episodes this way you're able to tune in to amazing insights from experts, brand founders, industry leaders, authors all the wonderful people that we host and that's very important for me because I love to hear from you guys and really understand what you love and what you want to hear more of.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: Also make sure to give us a follow on all of our social media outlets.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: We are available on Instagram, TikTok, X, you name it, we're there.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: We also have a blog on Medium so if you're a reader and you love medium blogs check us out on Medium.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: We publish some really great articles on there that do deeper dives than just what's available on the podcast and it's really a great place for all of you science geeks out there that want to learn a little bit more.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: We go above and beyond with our research and making sure we're bringing you information that you usually probably won't hear about in other outlets.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: So check us out leave us a comment leave us a review and we'll be back next time with another episode.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.