Latest / Conversations: Special Guests with Preston Scott / "Running Deep" Author Tom Clavin

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"Running Deep" Author Tom Clavin · Conversations: Special Guests with Preston Scott

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  Speaker 1: If I passed the hour, Let's get to it. Second
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  Speaker 1: hour of the Morning Show with Preston Scotti's Ose. I
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  Speaker 1: am Preston and this is author Tom Clavin. The latest
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  Speaker 1: book is Running Deep, Bravery Survival and the True Story
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  Speaker 1: of the deadliest submarine in World War Two. Tom, welcome
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  Speaker 1: back to the show. How are you, friend, I'm fine.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me back.
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  Speaker 1: I love having you on this program, especially when you
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  Speaker 1: write these books. Man, I want to ask you, is
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  Speaker 1: researching and writing for you? Is it more than just
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  Speaker 1: a profession? Is this your hobby? I mean, do you
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  Speaker 1: do anything else?
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  Speaker 2: I don't do anything else? Well that way, I mean
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  Speaker 2: I tell people all seriousness that I have though other
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  Speaker 2: talents and skills, So I stick to the one thing
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  Speaker 2: I know how to do.
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  Speaker 1: Because you and the variety of books what I love,
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  Speaker 1: of course, and listeners of the program. No, I don't
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  Speaker 1: generally talk to people that write novels. I love his
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  Speaker 1: I love the true stories of history, and there are
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  Speaker 1: so many and this is perfect timing Veterans Day coming up.
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  Speaker 1: But I always ask, Okay, where did you stumble upon
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  Speaker 1: the story of the USS Tang?
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  Speaker 2: I was researching something else and I came across a
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  Speaker 2: line in a book somewhere that compared Captain Richiel O.
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  Speaker 2: Kane to Audie Murphy. Now, for some of your listeners
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  Speaker 2: might not remember, but Audie Murphy was the most decorated
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  Speaker 2: Army soldier in World War two US Army soldier and
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  Speaker 2: Richie O. Kine was the most decorated Navy officer of
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  Speaker 2: World War Two. But nobody heard of Richie O. Kine.
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  Speaker 2: So I had to find out more about him. And
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  Speaker 2: that's how he's captain of the tank which became the
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  Speaker 2: most effective submary of World War Two for the Americans,
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  Speaker 2: and the submarines sank. There were survivors, including the captain,
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  Speaker 2: and they had to survive this Japanese torture camp. And
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  Speaker 2: all that said to me, this is a story about survival,
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  Speaker 2: and I want to write it.
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  Speaker 1: I would. Okay, let's set the stage part of World
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  Speaker 1: War two the theater, because I think most people, even
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  Speaker 1: those that are maybe World War two officionados, when they
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  Speaker 1: hear submarine, they're thinking Germans. They're thinking of the U boats, right,
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  Speaker 1: they're the most notoriously well known submarines. Where is the
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  Speaker 1: Tang operating and at what part of World War two.
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  Speaker 2: Well, the Tang was first launched in early nineteen forty four,
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  Speaker 2: and it was operating only in the Pacific Ocean, in
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  Speaker 2: the Pacific theater, and that's where most of the submarine
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  Speaker 2: activity was because you had the vast reaches of the
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  Speaker 2: Pacific Ocean. So the Tang was very effective. It was
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  Speaker 2: not the only submarine, of course, that the Americas deployed,
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  Speaker 2: but it was the most successful.
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  Speaker 1: When we think of submarines, I think obviously all of
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  Speaker 1: us look at it through the lens of the technology
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  Speaker 1: of the day. How important were submarines in World War
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  Speaker 1: Two to the US naval operations.
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  Speaker 2: Became clear right after Pear Harbor, because when the disaster
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  Speaker 2: of Pearl Harbor meant that many of our surface ships
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  Speaker 2: are not available anymore. The aircraft carriers and destroyers, they
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  Speaker 2: were either sunk or they were so damp that damage
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  Speaker 2: they would not come back into action for months and
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  Speaker 2: not a year or so. Well, we had left with
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  Speaker 2: the submarines, which was pretty much untouched, and that was
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  Speaker 2: our last line of defense for months and months and
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  Speaker 2: months until we started to rebound. Our manufacturing plants were
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  Speaker 2: turning out more ships, but if wasn't for the submarines.
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  Speaker 2: The Japanese could have certainly invaded Hawaii and possibly even
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  Speaker 2: the west coast of the mainland. So the submarines played
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  Speaker 2: an important role, which surprised everybody because they don't think
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  Speaker 2: considered very important. They were as important as the surface ships.
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  Speaker 1: You say that, and it's interesting to me because the
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  Speaker 1: surface ships tend to get the notoriety the aircraft carriers
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  Speaker 1: and some of the battleships. Submarines, I guess maybe appropriately
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  Speaker 1: they bask in anonymity.
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  Speaker 2: They do. It was called the silent Service in World
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  Speaker 2: War Two because they did operate a well, let's face it,
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  Speaker 2: they operated below the surface of the water, weren't as
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  Speaker 2: obvious visibly as an aircraft carrier or battleship. And one
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  Speaker 2: of the reasons why they could be successful is they
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  Speaker 2: had to be stealthy, you know, they had to go
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  Speaker 2: under water and try and surprise enemy ships. So, yes,
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  Speaker 2: they were. To this day you could say that the
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  Speaker 2: submarines don't get the kind of attention that the surface
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  Speaker 2: ships do.
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  Speaker 1: Tom you mentioned the captain of the USS Tang, Richard O'Kaine.
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  Speaker 1: What did you learn about him before his service in
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  Speaker 1: the United States Navy.
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  Speaker 2: He was a native of New Hampshire, and when he
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  Speaker 2: was a kid he wanted to be in the Navy.
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  Speaker 2: He loved sailing, built his own little sailboats. And he
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  Speaker 2: was not a brilliant student Annapolis, but he graduated pretty
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  Speaker 2: high up in his class, and he went into as
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  Speaker 2: most graduates did. He went into surface ships who worked
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  Speaker 2: on the battleship. But like some other officers and since
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  Speaker 2: he decided, they wanted to try submarines. And I should
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  Speaker 2: point out that submarine service was completely voluntary. You cannot
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  Speaker 2: be assigned to work on a submarine for the obvious
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  Speaker 2: reason that you suppose you have a clausophobia issue or
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  Speaker 2: just discomfort would being under water three hundred feet. So
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  Speaker 2: he volunteered, he was underwent training, and then he became
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  Speaker 2: the executive officer on a called the Wahoo, which was
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  Speaker 2: very successful in World War Two. And so when the
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  Speaker 2: tank was being built and he was a captain that
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  Speaker 2: was going to, you know, take it to the next level.
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  Speaker 2: And Okaine was chosen to be captain of the of
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  Speaker 2: the tank.
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  Speaker 1: What were his orders? What was he tasked to do
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  Speaker 1: and accomplish?
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  Speaker 2: Well, that's a good question because one of the things
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  Speaker 2: that the Navy did was they would send out the
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  Speaker 2: submarines and like wolf packs, uh, two or sometimes three,
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  Speaker 2: sometimes maybe even four submarines would would go out together
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  Speaker 2: so they could support each other. Okine did not like
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  Speaker 2: to do that. He wanted to be the lone wolf.
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  Speaker 2: He took the tangle very independently on his own roots
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  Speaker 2: and so search, search and patrols and and uh that's
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  Speaker 2: how it became, I think, so effective because he could
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  Speaker 2: go wherever he wanted to, and he had unusual instinct
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  Speaker 2: for knowing where the enemy was.
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  Speaker 1: So was he doing this on his own or was
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  Speaker 1: he doing it with the approval of the higher ups?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't exactly use the word approval, but the
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  Speaker 2: hill name of named Lockwood, who was he a wink yeah,
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  Speaker 2: God like stick with your colleagues, wink wink yeah. Fellow
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  Speaker 2: Charles Lockwood was the admiral in charge of submarines in
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  Speaker 2: the Pacific, and he had so like a paternal relationship
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  Speaker 2: with o'kine. You have to remember to o'kine when he
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  Speaker 2: was a named captain of the tank, was only thirty
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  Speaker 2: two years old. These are still very young men who
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  Speaker 2: were putting positions of great responsibility.
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  Speaker 1: When you came across this story. Like, I love asking
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  Speaker 1: this question of you each time we have you on
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  Speaker 1: the program. Where do you get your research? Were there
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  Speaker 1: any surviving members? Were there members of family? You know?
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  Speaker 1: I mean, who'd you talk to?
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  Speaker 2: Well, the last survivor of the Tang was a fellow
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  Speaker 2: named Boats. His nickname was Boat's Live Bold and he
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  Speaker 2: died at ninety nine during the pandemic. So when I
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  Speaker 2: started to work on this story, there was no living
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  Speaker 2: survivor of the USS Tang. However, there's reports, there's deep
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  Speaker 2: briefings when when maybe liberated the prison camp was liberated
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  Speaker 2: and they could recover from their ailments, they were interviewed
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  Speaker 2: really extensively, and those interviews exist. They can be found
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  Speaker 2: either in the Library of Congress or the World War
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  Speaker 2: Two Museum in New Orleans. And Ocaine himself he wrote
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  Speaker 2: a sort of a memoir called Clear the Bridge about
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  Speaker 2: his time as captain of the Tang, and that was
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  Speaker 2: very helpful. Not the most exciting read, but it was
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  Speaker 2: very helpful with details.
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  Speaker 1: Joining us on the program is Tom claven the book
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  Speaker 1: Running Deep, Bravery, Survival and the True Story of the
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  Speaker 1: Deadliest submarine in World War Two. Before we Go to
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  Speaker 1: break Tom kind of quantify that statement deadliest submarine in
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  Speaker 1: World War Two, because that's lofty it is.
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  Speaker 2: And the Tang sank thirty three Japanese ships, and it
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  Speaker 2: was by far the most ships sunk by a single
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  Speaker 2: submarine in World War Two. So not only sank ships,
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  Speaker 2: but it caused the Japanese many times to alter their
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  Speaker 2: roots to sometimes not even send out convoys because they
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  Speaker 2: were afrayed the tanks out there somewhere. So not were
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  Speaker 2: effective by sinking ships, but they were very intimidating and
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  Speaker 2: changed in Japanese thinking about where their boats could go.
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  Speaker 1: But there was one particular convoy that met a very
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  Speaker 1: unfortunate fate at the hands of the Tang.
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  Speaker 2: Correct, yes, you know in October nineteen forty four, so
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  Speaker 2: we were talking about eighty one years ago. The Tang
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  Speaker 2: by itself encountered an entire Japanese convoy and took on.
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  Speaker 2: Rather than let it go or miss out on some
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  Speaker 2: success here, it attacked the entire convoy by itself. And
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  Speaker 2: it was during this attack on a convoy which was
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  Speaker 2: successful and almost every ship was sunk. The Tang actually
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  Speaker 2: was sunk itself.
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  Speaker 1: What did you learn about life aboard a World War
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  Speaker 1: II submarine. What was it like, Tom.
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  Speaker 2: Well, during the break you use an expression it's like
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  Speaker 2: a city underwater. That's sort of like a submarine has
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  Speaker 2: to be very self contained because you take off, and
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  Speaker 2: as a case of the Pacific Ocean, for example, you
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  Speaker 2: have thousands of miles from your base camp. So it's
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  Speaker 2: it's you. You bring your kitchen with you, you bring
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  Speaker 2: your showers, your bathrooms, you bring your living quarters such
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  Speaker 2: as they are. I mean they had this, they had
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  Speaker 2: this set of hammocks and the torpedo rooms to have
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  Speaker 2: enough space everybody could sleep on a submarine. So it's
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  Speaker 2: a very cramped, claustrophobic environment. You could be underwater for
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  Speaker 2: weeks at a time. I mean you have to surface
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  Speaker 2: from time to time to recharge your batteries, but for
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  Speaker 2: the most part, for weeks at a time. You're on
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  Speaker 2: a war patrol. In World War two, you're you're not
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  Speaker 2: you don't see the sky. And if some of your
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  Speaker 2: listeners can imagine, I can't live like that. While the
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  Speaker 2: hundreds of these fellows, a thousands of these fells did
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  Speaker 2: during World War Two, and they also do that they
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  Speaker 2: are tremendous risks. The mortality rate for a submarine sailor
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  Speaker 2: was six times that of a surface ship sailor. So
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  Speaker 2: they had to know that what they were doing were
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  Speaker 2: particularly dangerous.
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  Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned that they they were volunteers, because
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  Speaker 1: you can't assign somebody to something that is so restrictive
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  Speaker 1: on so many different fronts. How did they handle just
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  Speaker 1: the resupply, the refueling? Was that all done at sea?
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  Speaker 1: I mean, how'd they coordinate all that.
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  Speaker 2: Well? In the case of the Navy during World War Two,
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  Speaker 2: you had Pearl Harbor was the main basein of Pacific,
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  Speaker 2: even you know, it recovered rather quickly the devastation of
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  Speaker 2: December nineteen forty one. Then you had Midway was a
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  Speaker 2: tall and had field capacity that the submarines was comeing
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  Speaker 2: in the top off their tanks. And then there would
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  Speaker 2: be Guam. As the as the US allies and their
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  Speaker 2: allies got further and further west in the Pacific, they
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  Speaker 2: would set up more and more bases farther away from
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  Speaker 2: Pearl Harbor where submarines and other ships could go to refuel.
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  Speaker 2: Because it's true, you know, the extent of your mission
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  Speaker 2: could last only as long as your fielded.
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  Speaker 1: You mentioned in the last segment that the USS Tang
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  Speaker 1: met its faith at its own hand. Give us a
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  Speaker 1: little bit more on that.
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  Speaker 2: Well, it was attacking this convoy and sinking ships left
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  Speaker 2: and right, and they had one torpedo left. I should
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  Speaker 2: point out that the World War two submarine had twenty
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  Speaker 2: four torpedoes, and when you fire the last one, your
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  Speaker 2: mission is over. You go back to base. And had
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  Speaker 2: one more torpedo left. They fired it at this wounded
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  Speaker 2: Japanese ship. The torpedo boomerang came back and struck the Tang.
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  Speaker 2: Now it sent it to the bottom one hundred and
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  Speaker 2: eight feet down. It came to rest on the bottom.
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  Speaker 2: But yet the captain and nine of the sailors survived.
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  Speaker 2: Now that's the good news that they survived. The bad
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  Speaker 2: news was they were picked up almost immediately by a
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  Speaker 2: Japanese patrol boat. Who these people, you can imagine, we're
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  Speaker 2: very upset because they'd just seen the submarine devastate their convoy.
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  Speaker 2: So they ended up The captain, nort Kain and his
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  Speaker 2: men ended up in a Japanese prison camp where they
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  Speaker 2: spent most of the next year in the most trendous conditions.
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  Speaker 2: So it's really running deep as a sort of survival
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  Speaker 2: of the US Navy after Pearl Harbor, the survival of
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  Speaker 2: the Tang after got sunk, and the survival of Captain
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  Speaker 2: O'Cain and his men in his prison camp before he
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  Speaker 2: was liberated.
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  Speaker 1: Did have the remains of the Tang ever been found?
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  Speaker 2: No, they have not. They have a pretty good idea
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  Speaker 2: and foremost straight what was called at the time, the
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  Speaker 2: foremost straight where the tang is located. But you know,
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  Speaker 2: these are very expensive salvage operations, and there has to
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  Speaker 2: be a motivation. You know. Sometimes you read about they've
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  Speaker 2: raised this whole Spanish ship from seventeen ninety. You know
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  Speaker 2: that because it contains gold that was being shipped the
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  Speaker 2: Tang is probably just a pilot of rusted metal by now,
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  Speaker 2: really an incentive to go get it.
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  Speaker 1: So Captain Richard o'cane and six seven eight of his
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  Speaker 1: men survive the war. What happens to them? What happens
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  Speaker 1: to the captain?
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  Speaker 2: Well, the captain when he he barely survived, he was
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  Speaker 2: when he was captured, he was one hundred, seventy hundred
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  Speaker 2: and seventy five pounds and he was ninety when the
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  Speaker 2: camp was liberated. He underwent terrible experience, but he kept
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  Speaker 2: his men together and kept them really helped kept to
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  Speaker 2: cute them alive. And after the campus liberated at the
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  Speaker 2: end of August nineteen forty five, he had spent months.
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  Speaker 2: He spent months in the couperating from his injuries, and
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  Speaker 2: he was able to in early nineteen forty six limp
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  Speaker 2: into the White House and receive the Battle of Honor
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  Speaker 2: from President Truman. Wow.
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  Speaker 1: Amazing story, Tom. I can't wait to see the next
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  Speaker 1: project and hear what's coming our way. But thank you
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  Speaker 1: so much for this book, Running Deep in for the time.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you for your time. I really appreciate it.
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  Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Tom Craven with us this morning on
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  Speaker 1: The Morning Show with Preston Scott. The book is Running Deep,
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  Speaker 1: Bravery Survival and the true story of the deadliest submarine
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  Speaker 1: in World War Two. Perfect for Veterans Day, perfect for Christmas.
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  Speaker 1: It's a great book for the historian or the naval
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  Speaker 1: officionado in the family. Here on The Morning Show with
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  Speaker 1: Preston Scott.