Latest / The Delicious Culture with Jon Francois / Eden's Garden Is Delicious w/ Khadijah Rolle

Transcript

Eden's Garden Is Delicious w/ Khadijah Rolle · The Delicious Culture with Jon Francois

• 0:00
  One time I got completely naked in class. I begged.
• 0:03
  And the circumstance that was made up was that
• 0:06
  somebody had raped me on my way home and I was
• 0:09
  trying to... That's what I mean. It got very
• 0:12
  deep. Holy shit. Hello, delishies. Grab a plate
• 0:21
  and feast on The Delicious Culture. I'm your
• 0:22
  host, Jon François. We are feasting on food,
• 0:25
  pop culture and lifestyle with... Get ready.
• 0:28
  Children's media producer, actor, musical theater
• 0:30
  sensation, Broadway performer, Khadijah Roll.
• 0:32
  Hi, Khadijah. Hey there, John. I am in Vermont.
• 0:36
  You're joining me from Miami, Florida? Actually,
• 0:39
  I do live in Miami right now. I'm in Jacksonville
• 0:40
  with my boyfriend. So I'm back and forth between
• 0:43
  Jacksonville and Miami and New York. Wow. Yeah,
• 0:46
  you are all over, as is usually the case with
• 0:50
  artists like yourself. It is July 25th. How hot
• 0:56
  is it in Jacksonville right now? Oh my God, it's
• 0:59
  so hot. I feel like it's probably 100 degrees.
• 1:01
  It's hot, but you know what? I'm not complaining
• 1:03
  because when I'm in New York during the winter
• 1:05
  and it's not a peak of sun, I'm miserable. So
• 1:09
  I'm okay with it. I love it. I'm sweltering and
• 1:11
  I love it. Yeah. So you say, I'll believe you
• 1:16
  as much as I can, but no, no, I just, I've heard
• 1:20
  countlessly about how brutal Florida is in the
• 1:24
  summer with the, with the high temperature and
• 1:26
  the humidity. We have a little bit of that every
• 1:29
  now and then here in Vermont with our summers,
• 1:31
  the humidity is definitely ridiculous to a point
• 1:33
  where like even 75 degrees just feels disgusting.
• 1:37
  And then I go to LA and there's 75 degrees is
• 1:39
  nicer because it's like a - It feels perfect.
• 1:41
  I will say New York's at - New York summer is
• 1:43
  actually the most brutal over Miami and Jackson,
• 1:47
  over Florida to me. I think it's ridiculous in
• 1:49
  New York in the summertime. Now why is that?
• 1:51
  Is that because of like all the tall buildings
• 1:53
  and they're all closed? I don't know. It's not
• 1:55
  a breeze. It's so hot. It's the smell. But it's
• 2:00
  a good time. It's a good time. Everything is
• 2:03
  free, OK? And we're going to have some fun, but
• 2:06
  it's hot. I'm reminded of when when comedian
• 2:10
  Craig Ferguson had his late night talk show and
• 2:13
  he was and he was producing it out of LA and
• 2:16
  he visited and he was talking about his visit
• 2:17
  to New York and The line that he said was just
• 2:21
  like oh my god. It was a great time It smelled
• 2:23
  like pizza and pee -pee like Just every time
• 2:28
  when I think of like what summertime must feel
• 2:30
  in New York just the smell of pizza and pee -pee
• 2:33
  and heat You know you want to wear a bikini all
• 2:36
  day Like you don't want to, you don't, you don't
• 2:38
  want to wear clothes. And the fall and winter
• 2:40
  time, may I say, like, cause like 30 degrees
• 2:44
  here in Vermont can feel like springtime because
• 2:47
  we're like, it's a cooler climate, like for the
• 2:49
  most part. So we're used to it. So like, you
• 2:51
  know, you, you do two or 10 degrees here enough
• 2:54
  and you get to 30 degrees and it feels like a
• 2:56
  nice spring day. But in New York, I don't know
• 2:58
  what it is, but 30 degrees feels like two degrees
• 3:00
  there. It's like. Yes. And so the breeze that
• 3:04
  you may not feel in the summertime, like, it's
• 3:06
  coming full force in the wintertime. I remember
• 3:08
  when we went to visit you, me and my wife went
• 3:10
  to see your wonderful Broadway show. It was cold.
• 3:13
  And I got really sick when I came back here to
• 3:15
  Vermont after that trip in New York. It was insane.
• 3:17
  I'm so shocked that Vermont is not just as cold.
• 3:20
  I thought Vermont would be very cold. Oh, no,
• 3:22
  no, it can get cold. Like, don't get me wrong.
• 3:23
  But like, when it's like in the teens and like
• 3:27
  single digits and like, that's definitely cold.
• 3:30
  OK. Because we have a lot of that, your body
• 3:34
  gets a certain tolerance for the cooler climate.
• 3:38
  So if you go from like two degrees one day to
• 3:40
  like 30 or 40 the next day, like 30, 40 is going
• 3:43
  to seem like a really nice 60 degree kind of
• 3:46
  spring day. Um, no, no, no, no, no. So I'm originally
• 3:50
  from Connecticut. Um, and then, uh, when I graduated
• 3:54
  high school, I, that's, that's when I was like,
• 3:57
  all right, I want to be done with Connecticut
• 3:58
  and go somewhere else for college. And that's
• 4:00
  how you and I met. I went to the university of
• 4:02
  the arts in Philadelphia for a little while.
• 4:05
  Um, and by a little while I meant three semesters.
• 4:08
  I dropped out out of three, after three semesters.
• 4:11
  So I was. So you left, you left early. Yeah,
• 4:14
  and you were a musical theater major there, weren't
• 4:16
  you? I was. And that's why when you said it,
• 4:19
  I was like, I remember you around. But when I
• 4:22
  say I was so to myself at UArts, I don't remember
• 4:26
  anything. I just remember being completely tunnel
• 4:29
  vision. But I do remember you. I was like, were
• 4:32
  you in the acting, straight acting program? I
• 4:34
  was, yeah. I was an acting major. And you and
• 4:38
  I... Wait, wait, wait. So you stayed the whole
• 4:41
  four years there, didn't you? I graduated some
• 4:43
  three and a half years. So I took the, I did
• 4:45
  the, I doubled up in the summer. So I left in
• 4:48
  2012 of December, but I came back in May of 2013
• 4:53
  to walk across the stage. So 2013, but I left
• 4:57
  around December of 2012. So we started our freshman
• 5:00
  year at the same time, fall of 2009 going into
• 5:02
  spring of 2010. Is that? And even though you
• 5:06
  were a musical theater major, I felt like we
• 5:08
  took a class together. Was it, was it survey,
• 5:12
  theater survey or business class? Maybe. Theater
• 5:17
  survey. Were we like in a, in some like audit
• 5:21
  or like some kind of like auditorium like room.
• 5:24
  And then we had like a projector. And who was
• 5:27
  our professor? Because I'm thinking of, uh, she,
• 5:30
  she was my, my filter. And she was well, she
• 5:34
  was well, she knew well read, very knowledgeable.
• 5:38
  Um, but, and she was silly. Her personality was
• 5:40
  very bubbly, but I think because we were coming
• 5:43
  in as freshmen, we were kind of like, yeah, I
• 5:46
  remember being in class. I remember being in
• 5:48
  class like, okay, she's bubbly. Like, I don't
• 5:51
  know if it was that class or. I don't know, but
• 5:54
  I remember we had to take a class where all of
• 5:56
  us came together. Right. So... And I say this
• 6:01
  with respect. Was Ma Fielder, was she the heavy
• 6:04
  -set woman in the wheelchair? Okay, okay, okay.
• 6:06
  And I think she passed away some time ago, didn't
• 6:09
  she? She's passed, yeah. Everything is, well,
• 6:12
  you watch this close now, but prior to even being
• 6:14
  close, a lot of things had changed. A lot of
• 6:17
  people were gone. I couldn't believe it closed.
• 6:19
  I was like, wow. So now when people ask me what
• 6:21
  college I go to, I'll be like, you aren't, you
• 6:22
  aren't. So I finished up my degree, my bachelor's
• 6:29
  degree at Eastern Connecticut State University
• 6:31
  after I left UArts. But I love like when I say
• 6:34
  that I started off at UArts, I always like to
• 6:36
  say the now defunct University of the Arts. When
• 6:39
  did I leave? Yeah. What made you leave? Was you
• 6:44
  not satisfied with the program? So I was like,
• 6:48
  I I was a big fish in a small town, or I'm sorry,
• 6:51
  I was a big fish in a small pond in my high school
• 6:54
  theater program, as most theater people might
• 6:56
  be in their high school in West Hartford, Connecticut.
• 6:59
  And I just thought, like, all right, cool. Like,
• 7:03
  I'm going to carry this energy with me into college.
• 7:05
  And not surprisingly, you go from, you know,
• 7:08
  a town of about 60 ,000 people to Philadelphia,
• 7:13
  where, you know, I go from like, oh, wow, I'm
• 7:17
  one of the few in my high school theater department.
• 7:20
  I'm literally the only person of color who's
• 7:21
  regularly performing in that theater department.
• 7:23
  And then, you know, it's more diverse in Philly,
• 7:26
  and there's a bigger talent pool. And I was going
• 7:31
  through some personal family stuff. My parents
• 7:33
  weren't doing well. They split up around that
• 7:35
  time. So it was that personal stuff. And then
• 7:38
  it was me being very intimidated by the intensity,
• 7:42
  the seriousness of the acting program. And...
• 7:47
  You know, you are expensive and cheap as you
• 7:49
  know. I mean, I think outer state tuition was
• 7:51
  like 40 grand a year at the time. So all of that,
• 7:57
  uh, after three semesters, I just, um, I just
• 8:01
  decided that it wasn't a good fit for me anymore.
• 8:03
  And I know that you, I feel like you also had
• 8:07
  that like end of semester, end of year evaluation
• 8:09
  where you had to like, basically, uh, go into
• 8:12
  a room and sit in on a death row in front of
• 8:15
  all your professors as they evaluate how you
• 8:17
  did for the year. And what always stuck to me
• 8:20
  at the end of what became my last semester was
• 8:23
  Ernie, whatever his last name was, he was...
• 8:25
  Uh -huh. Yeah, we know Ernie. I remember the
• 8:28
  name. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I forgot what his
• 8:30
  last name was, but he was the guy that, like,
• 8:33
  he taught us, like, the Meisner acting method.
• 8:37
  Which I... Go ahead. No, no, no, it's okay, it's
• 8:40
  okay. So it seems like you're not the only one
• 8:42
  that sort of has trauma from Ernie. But, like,
• 8:45
  I remember... And this was true, but like, it
• 8:49
  just stuck with me as like an, like an 18, 19
• 8:51
  year old kid, just being like judged in front
• 8:53
  of all my teachers, but just him being like,
• 8:56
  John, I don't think you want to be here. And
• 9:00
  then I know. And it was true. Like, like I wasn't
• 9:03
  willing to admit that to myself, but like, you
• 9:05
  know, following that up with like every single
• 9:08
  teacher, just basically explaining and I guess
• 9:10
  the kindest way possible, but also the most honest
• 9:12
  way possible what I was doing wrong and why.
• 9:16
  It didn't seem like I was committed to this.
• 9:18
  Like, you know, if there were auditions for,
• 9:20
  you know, productions or musical theater or what
• 9:23
  have you, I'd be like the last one to sign up.
• 9:25
  Cause I just wasn't like completely invested
• 9:27
  in the program. Like, so that stuck with me.
• 9:29
  But, um, what was your experience with Ernie?
• 9:31
  Cause I, yeah. Cause I figured like as a musical
• 9:33
  theater person, maybe you didn't have to take
• 9:35
  that acting. Uh, I didn't have Ernie. I had John
• 9:40
  and John was amazing to me. Johnny. John his
• 9:44
  name was not Johnny Hobbs John. I can't remember
• 9:46
  his last name was a white dude with long hair
• 9:49
  Okay, there's a mate. He was amazing and I just
• 9:53
  did miser just was not my thing. I feel that
• 9:56
  I wasn't prepared for it emotionally It was too
• 9:58
  much for me. I came from a blackly black town
• 10:03
  Yeah, where did you come from? So I'm from Miami.
• 10:07
  I went to art school from middle school all the
• 10:10
  way to high school, but I lived in a very diverse
• 10:14
  community where it was predominantly black. So
• 10:18
  for me, it was a bit of a culture shock to do
• 10:21
  things like Meisner. We wasn't talking about
• 10:28
  emotions and emoting. and going deep and thinking
• 10:31
  about our traumas and using them to create activities.
• 10:34
  To me, it felt intrusive at the time. I felt
• 10:37
  now as an adult at 35 years old, I think I can
• 10:40
  handle that. And I actually think it would be
• 10:42
  somewhat... healing for me. But then I just felt
• 10:46
  like I wasn't, I didn't understand the curriculum.
• 10:49
  That's what I was getting myself into. So I just
• 10:51
  didn't enjoy the Meisner technique. But my teacher
• 10:55
  was amazing and he kind of held my hand and took
• 10:57
  me along and he encouraged me because I was trying
• 10:59
  to hide at that point. I remember hiding in his
• 11:02
  class and being like, I don't get it. You know,
• 11:05
  just not enjoying it and just being a rebel.
• 11:08
  And he almost flunked me. He was like, I'm gonna
• 11:11
  flunk you, because I was disrespectful at one
• 11:13
  point. I remember getting up and trying to do
• 11:16
  an activity, the crafting. You remember the,
• 11:19
  where we had, and I was like, this is stupid.
• 11:21
  Everybody's fake crying and making up things.
• 11:24
  I was like, I don't know what to do. And I'm
• 11:26
  literally going off in the class. I was like,
• 11:27
  this is stupidest shit I ever, I'm mad. What
• 11:30
  do you mean about the crafting? Are you talking
• 11:33
  about that repetition? exercise where we had
• 11:35
  to like say a phrase. Oh, so well, you don't
• 11:39
  remember that we did repetition, but then you
• 11:41
  had to do add crafting to it. So you had to make
• 11:44
  up a whole, remember you had to take a fake circumstance
• 11:49
  and put it with a real circumstance and create
• 11:51
  an activity to do while the partner walked in.
• 11:53
  Oh, I don't remember that. Tell me more. Yeah.
• 11:57
  So like say for instance, one time I got completely
• 11:59
  naked in class, I bathed. in front of everybody.
• 12:02
  So we had to do an activity. Yes, I bought like
• 12:04
  this big bin and the circumstance that was made
• 12:08
  up was that somebody had raped me on my way home
• 12:12
  and I was trying to... That's what I mean. It
• 12:14
  got it got very deep. Holy shit. And as you're
• 12:18
  crafting that, though, there is something within
• 12:20
  that activity that is real for you. So now you're
• 12:23
  dealing with certain traumas that if you're not
• 12:25
  ready for that, that's what I'm saying. It was
• 12:27
  it was. So I don't know what you guys did in
• 12:29
  Ernie's class, but at first it was repetition
• 12:31
  for that first semester. But the second semester,
• 12:34
  we had to create circumstances while we were
• 12:37
  doing the repetition and your partner would walk
• 12:39
  in into you doing something. whatever the activity
• 12:43
  was, and it's something that was from your past
• 12:46
  or something that you have been through, but
• 12:48
  also it could be imaginary circumstance too.
• 12:51
  And so for me at that time, I was like, I wasn't
• 12:55
  feeling it, but John was good to me and he gave
• 12:58
  me a chance and he believed in me. And at that
• 13:03
  time I needed somebody to kind of hold my hand.
• 13:06
  I was upset about that class. And I didn't get
• 13:09
  it at the time. As you should have been, because,
• 13:11
  you know, we're young, we're ambitious, we're,
• 13:14
  I don't know, in our late teens, early 20s, whatever.
• 13:17
  And when someone like Ernie, who has, you know,
• 13:20
  had quite an impressive resume, I remember the
• 13:23
  very first day, the first thing that he said
• 13:24
  to us was, after you take this class, you'll
• 13:28
  be able to act in a scene with Robert De Niro
• 13:29
  and Al Pacino. So when you hear that... as like
• 13:32
  an 18, 19 year old, of course you're going to
• 13:34
  be like, Oh my God, this is great. Like after
• 13:37
  this class, like I don't have to go through the
• 13:39
  four years, but after this, like I'll be that
• 13:41
  good after this class. That gave him the allowance
• 13:46
  to put us through a lot. And I think I remember
• 13:49
  the crafting activity thing you mentioned. I
• 13:51
  definitely remember the repetition exercise of
• 13:53
  like, all right, take one phrase and just kind
• 13:56
  of repeat it to your scene partner and going
• 13:59
  through various emotional levels with that phrase
• 14:02
  or situation. A recent podcast guest, Marie Reisberg,
• 14:06
  who actually also was like a BFA acting major,
• 14:09
  but she did it at the University of Hartford
• 14:10
  Heart School in Connecticut. We were talking
• 14:13
  about the shared trauma of going through this
• 14:16
  intense acting experience. And I told her about,
• 14:19
  like, I don't remember how the exercise led to
• 14:22
  this, but I was thinking of, like, an unfortunate
• 14:25
  situation with my younger brother when our dad
• 14:29
  was in our lives. And just the tension that kind
• 14:34
  of... came up in my brother and I's relationship
• 14:37
  as a, because it was, it was, it was like, you
• 14:41
  know, he was the favorite of my dad, but I wasn't
• 14:44
  so much. And I was sort of like middle school
• 14:48
  going into high school when my brother was, you
• 14:50
  know, like in a single digit. So I had all these,
• 14:53
  you know, very confused feelings that I just
• 14:57
  didn't know how to process as you, as you would
• 14:59
  when you're a preteen and teenager. So I was
• 15:01
  using that and Maybe the exercise didn't go well
• 15:05
  or but I just remember afterwards Ernie saying
• 15:08
  like okay like John like what were you thinking?
• 15:11
  What was going on and that exercise and I talked
• 15:14
  about this unfortunate relationship that I had
• 15:16
  with my brother and I started crying like crazy
• 15:18
  which was Big because I was much like you I was
• 15:23
  just very closed off and like and now like I
• 15:27
  you know I just was in a very, yeah, I was just
• 15:31
  in a very guarded, cynical place at that time.
• 15:37
  all these wonderful classmates with their big
• 15:39
  personalities. And like, I even looked at someone
• 15:41
  like you and I was like, oh, wow, like you're,
• 15:43
  you know, you're, you're so outgoing. And, and
• 15:45
  here I am trying to be like this sort of closed
• 15:47
  off guarded, like intense method actor kind of
• 15:50
  guy. And, um, I dunno, just something about how
• 15:53
  Ernie was asking me, like what influenced me
• 15:56
  going into this exercise just made me cry like
• 15:58
  crazy about my brother. And then him to follow,
• 16:01
  for him to follow up with, okay, well, I, I wasn't
• 16:05
  getting what I wanted. out of this and here's
• 16:08
  why. It was just like a complete mindfuck because
• 16:11
  it was like, oh my God, I feel like I'm being
• 16:13
  really vulnerable for the first time here. I
• 16:15
  felt like I'm doing therapy in front of. 10 other
• 16:19
  people. And I'm unpacking these things and it
• 16:22
  feels, I wasn't, we weren't, I can't speak for
• 16:25
  myself. I didn't even understand my feelings
• 16:28
  at that point. So it just was, I felt, I feel
• 16:30
  like if you're not a person who knows how to
• 16:32
  do that yet, I don't know how it would serve
• 16:34
  you. And I just felt like the age range maybe
• 16:36
  was a little too young. And like I said, now,
• 16:39
  if I took the class, I feel like I will be like,
• 16:41
  yeah, let's do it. But then. I was like, what
• 16:44
  is this? What are we doing? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 16:47
  yeah. And it's interesting that you say that
• 16:49
  you would be able to handle the class a lot better
• 16:51
  now. I think I just purely would not have an
• 16:57
  interest in taking that kind of class. I think
• 16:59
  that what happened with me was... I dropped out
• 17:03
  of UArts. Understandably, I just felt distant
• 17:06
  and very turned off by acting for quite some
• 17:09
  time. And then - Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then
• 17:11
  when I transferred to Eastern Connecticut State
• 17:14
  University, I started off as a communication
• 17:16
  major because my fallback plan was like, okay,
• 17:18
  I'm also into like radio and television broadcasting.
• 17:20
  So I'll like get into communications and I'll
• 17:22
  do that. And then the reality hit that like,
• 17:25
  oh, if you're starting a completely new major,
• 17:27
  then it's going to take you even longer to graduate.
• 17:28
  So I took my credits from UArts and then I decided
• 17:31
  to - to make a theater major at Eastern so I
• 17:33
  could graduate, you know, in 2013. Wasn't spring,
• 17:38
  but at the end of 2013, whatever, that's still
• 17:40
  fine. And then the love of acting came back when
• 17:44
  I was... Yay! Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was simply
• 17:47
  because Eastern was basically a sequel to my
• 17:50
  high school theater program, where it was like...
• 17:52
  Like, yeah, like my high school theater program,
• 17:54
  my teacher was intense and that we were still
• 17:56
  learning like Meisner and all that stuff, but
• 17:59
  it was still to a degree of like low stakes.
• 18:02
  Like we're still having fun. We're still young.
• 18:06
  And with Eastern... Yeah, yours was conservatory,
• 18:08
  babe. Exactly. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, for sure
• 18:12
  and it's and it's so funny to hear my Eastern
• 18:14
  theater classmates like when I tell them about
• 18:16
  my arts background They're like wait what you
• 18:18
  went from a conservatory to here because you
• 18:20
  know Eastern was just a run -of -the -mill public
• 18:21
  state school and all I kept thinking was Well,
• 18:26
  I'm glad to be here because it's like actually
• 18:28
  made acting fun and a reminder that at the end
• 18:32
  of the day We're just playing pretend, you know,
• 18:34
  so I I refound the love of acting through Eastern
• 18:38
  and I'm so grateful for that. So, yeah, but anyway.
• 18:42
  I will say after we finished the year, because
• 18:44
  I think it was sophomore year, we started Meisner.
• 18:47
  After that year, when I went into a junior year
• 18:50
  and senior year, I started, the classes that
• 18:53
  we took for acting felt... normal again. And
• 18:56
  it was, it was, it was challenging, but it was
• 18:59
  still fun again. Um, I think it was the technique
• 19:03
  that probably turned you off that the Meisner
• 19:05
  technique. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It just, it
• 19:08
  was a lot. And, um, God, I mean, what I would
• 19:13
  hear after I had left, because I, uh, a classmate
• 19:16
  of mine who I got along with, well, his name
• 19:17
  is Paul. He's from New Jersey and Hearing him
• 19:21
  say on Facebook Messenger that like, oh, yeah,
• 19:24
  like this second semester of Meisner fucking
• 19:26
  it like literally someone was giving someone
• 19:28
  else a blowjob and You see what I'm saying? That's
• 19:31
  what so you left at the crafting part then that
• 19:33
  means you were there for that repetition part
• 19:35
  Yeah, when it got to second semester We had to
• 19:38
  do things that not that they were telling us
• 19:40
  to get naked or anything But for me in order
• 19:42
  to tap in I had to do something in my mind That
• 19:45
  was high stakes for me because I was about to
• 19:47
  fail and I was like You see what I'm saying?
• 19:50
  So I was like, well, OK, if I got to go there,
• 19:53
  then I got to go there. And they know that we're
• 19:55
  ambitious. Like you said, we went to a school
• 19:58
  that's $40 ,000. So you're not going to fail.
• 20:03
  And it wasn't until I did that exercise, that's
• 20:06
  when I had my first breakthrough in the classroom.
• 20:07
  I was like, oh, I get it now. But I had to go
• 20:10
  there. So yeah, it was a trip. Um, and other
• 20:16
  than that, I had, you know, I also was the black
• 20:19
  girl in, um, musical theater. Cause it wasn't,
• 20:22
  I think I was the only black girl in my musical
• 20:24
  theater class, not theater. How did that feel?
• 20:26
  I'm so used to that. Cause I went to new world
• 20:29
  in Miami, which was, uh, is also concert, like
• 20:31
  a conservatory based high school. That was also
• 20:33
  a college. Yeah. And the way that I looked at,
• 20:36
  I was already trained to believe that by the
• 20:38
  time I got to college and I looked around and
• 20:40
  I saw my white counterparts. I said to myself,
• 20:43
  this is just a training ground. I'm probably
• 20:44
  not going to get a role. I'm probably not going
• 20:47
  to be, you know what I'm saying? So that's why
• 20:49
  I doubled up in the summertime. It was like,
• 20:51
  let me get my degree. And then I'll go as soon
• 20:53
  as I left, the reason why I left early is because
• 20:56
  I booked my first tour. Wow. So I didn't have
• 21:00
  to do the, I didn't have to do the, what is it?
• 21:02
  The senior showcase and things like that. Like
• 21:05
  it. kind of came to me because I knew that at
• 21:09
  URSA I wasn't going to be getting any roles,
• 21:11
  unfortunately. Like that's just what it was.
• 21:15
  And I've wondered about like, because it's ironic,
• 21:20
  right? Because like we're in Philly. Philly is
• 21:22
  certainly very diverse. There was a lot more
• 21:24
  people of color that I ever saw like in my high
• 21:27
  school theater program in Connecticut. But at
• 21:31
  the same time, I remember the stage combat professor
• 21:35
  uh, Charlie, what's his name? I don't remember
• 21:39
  his last name, but yeah. So like he was a very,
• 21:43
  um, old school civil war enthusiast kind of guy,
• 21:48
  like, you know, the kind of like middle -aged
• 21:49
  white man that would really, really get into
• 21:52
  like reading very thick, thorough books about
• 21:55
  American wars of the past. And, um, I remember
• 22:00
  a classmate being like, Yeah, I think that dude
• 22:04
  is racist because like when And sexist and sexist.
• 22:09
  Oh my god. Yeah, cuz when auditions came around
• 22:11
  for a production that he would direct in I heard
• 22:14
  him, you know making jokes or suggestions about
• 22:17
  oh like, you know, let's have this black character
• 22:21
  do this sort of slavery related thing and My
• 22:25
  memory is very foggy on that one. But like what
• 22:27
  was your experience with that? Because, I mean,
• 22:30
  I started, like, it was an adjustment with the
• 22:36
  stage combat of it all, but I got the hang of
• 22:38
  it freshman year, and I got good notes from him
• 22:40
  about, like, improving and whatnot. But auditioning
• 22:43
  for him was another story. But go ahead, what
• 22:46
  was your experience? Yeah, no, I didn't have
• 22:47
  Charlie, but my, so my friends that were in acting
• 22:51
  that were African -American were telling, they
• 22:53
  were telling me, you know, we would get together
• 22:55
  at the end of the day. I had two roommates that...
• 22:58
  were also one was Ecuadorian and one was black
• 23:00
  and they would share the experience and the things
• 23:03
  that he would be saying that was inappropriate
• 23:05
  and and I'm like and they everybody felt that
• 23:09
  same way that you're saying that it was like
• 23:10
  oh we think something is off with this man but
• 23:12
  ain't nobody saying nothing and but I didn't
• 23:15
  have Charlie so because musical theater didn't
• 23:17
  take stage combat I just went here I would hear
• 23:20
  all the stories though. You know, it's so interesting
• 23:23
  what they allow at these colleges. And I think
• 23:26
  that in musical theater, they'd be, I think in
• 23:28
  the arts world and the conservatory world, they
• 23:30
  believe that if they take the actor or the performer
• 23:33
  and they break you down, they break you down
• 23:35
  to build you up. And I don't think they're realizing
• 23:37
  that sometimes y 'all not building us back up.
• 23:39
  Yeah. Yeah. I feel like going back to what you
• 23:42
  were saying, like the fact that you could handle
• 23:44
  these kinds of classes now with therapy, which
• 23:48
  is where we should have like really dealt with
• 23:50
  all this stuff with therapy and growth. Sure.
• 23:52
  Like 30, 40, 50 somethings might be able to handle
• 23:55
  this. But like when you're in that like very
• 23:58
  young teen, late teenage, young adult stage where
• 24:01
  you're quite not knowing what you're what's going
• 24:04
  on and you're ambitious and you think, you know,
• 24:07
  adults of Charlie and John and Ernie's caliber
• 24:10
  are saying like, do this, do that. And you're,
• 24:12
  you're following the weight. Like it's so easy
• 24:14
  to get lost in that. And uh, Yeah, and I should
• 24:18
  say, for our audience, stage combat, you know,
• 24:20
  basically, like, if you're, you know, if you're
• 24:22
  doing scenes where there's, like, fencing or
• 24:24
  fight choreography involved, you know, that's
• 24:27
  what stage combat is for, is to teach you how
• 24:29
  to safely and effectively do that so that the
• 24:32
  audience knows that, like, a real thing when
• 24:34
  it's actually not real. Obviously, we're not
• 24:36
  going to, like, you know, be physically violent
• 24:38
  with each other, but we want to give you the
• 24:39
  illusion that it looks real. So that's what stage
• 24:42
  combat is, just to clarify for our audience.
• 24:46
  Wow, I wonder, do you remember some of the racist,
• 24:50
  sexist things that you might have heard, Charlie?
• 24:51
  I don't remember. I don't remember. I just remember
• 24:55
  them coming home and being like, then they tell
• 24:57
  you what they did. But I don't, it was, it's
• 24:58
  a blur. And that's why I'm saying what I think
• 25:00
  about you arts for me during that time, I didn't,
• 25:04
  I began after that, after my... freshman year,
• 25:07
  sophomore year, I lost all my friends. So I was
• 25:10
  very to myself. It wasn't a good time for me.
• 25:14
  Well, I had the two roommates and we kind of
• 25:16
  had a falling out and it just never got back.
• 25:20
  And I felt that people chose sides and was talking.
• 25:22
  So I'm the kind of person that kind of just I
• 25:24
  just I just focused in and I didn't talk and
• 25:27
  I would show up and just so my experience was
• 25:29
  very. Yeah, it was different. Like I just, it's
• 25:33
  a time that I don't really go back to in my mind.
• 25:36
  It was like, I did that. Cool. I got my degree
• 25:38
  and let me keep it pushing. Um, yeah. It's so
• 25:41
  shocking to me because from what little interactions
• 25:44
  that we had back then, you just came off as like
• 25:47
  this, as, as one of many like outgoing social
• 25:51
  people that seem to enjoy. or at least be content
• 25:57
  with their time there. I just felt like such
• 25:59
  a quiet, socially awkward, misfit, you know,
• 26:04
  both roommate situations that I had in my freshman
• 26:06
  year and half of my sophomore year, they could
• 26:09
  have been very fruitful like friendships, but
• 26:12
  I chose to just be like this standoffish guy,
• 26:15
  keep to myself. Like my roommate would invite
• 26:18
  me to go out to things and I'd just be like,
• 26:19
  no, I'm just going to stay here with my, you
• 26:21
  know, fucking Apple MacBook 2009, whatever the
• 26:24
  fuck. and just watch stuff in my room in the
• 26:26
  dark. Um, and then I remember like sophomore
• 26:29
  semester, I, uh, uh, uh, me and you, you remember,
• 26:33
  um, what's his name? Sydney because he was also
• 26:36
  in a Broadway show. Um, and he's doing great.
• 26:38
  Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So Sydney was, it was also on
• 26:41
  Broadway, just like you, um, we were roommates
• 26:43
  and, and, and he was very nice and friendly,
• 26:46
  but I just, again, I just didn't open myself
• 26:48
  up to, you know, be more friendly and reach out
• 26:51
  and create a relationship. But I remember like
• 26:53
  we had, our bunk room situation, our bunk bedroom
• 26:56
  situation. And then we have these other two guys
• 26:58
  across the hall. And one of the guys was just
• 27:02
  a, like he had a, he had an attitude and I may
• 27:06
  have not helped it when I like always ate his
• 27:08
  food. Like I was like eating his ice cream and
• 27:10
  then like throwing the empty box out the window
• 27:12
  to make it seem like I didn't eat his ice cream.
• 27:15
  I was causing some of that. not helped with it.
• 27:20
  Yeah. But like, I know what you mean, like, just
• 27:22
  like, you know, just, so the, the intense, um,
• 27:25
  program of like learning, acting, musical theater
• 27:27
  on that level, along with the fact that you're
• 27:29
  not really getting along with roommates. Like,
• 27:31
  yeah, it could create quite an experience. So
• 27:34
  I'm so shocked that it didn't work out for you
• 27:35
  that way, that you felt like you were, um, kind
• 27:37
  of disciplined. At the beginning, freshman and
• 27:39
  sophomore year, I was, it was, I was outside,
• 27:42
  I was out of class. Doing all the things, it
• 27:44
  was sophomore year where things began to kind
• 27:46
  of turn for me and I just went inward. Like I
• 27:49
  just went inward and I was a loner and... So
• 27:53
  I was there for the good times. That's why. Yes.
• 27:55
  That's why. Okay, okay. I wasn't there when it
• 27:57
  got bad for you. Okay, gotcha. Yeah. And I just
• 28:00
  stayed to myself and kind of just rocked it out.
• 28:02
  And like I said, double down, started taking
• 28:04
  summer classes and I got out of there because
• 28:06
  I didn't feel like, you know... It didn't feel
• 28:09
  like the regular college experience that I was
• 28:12
  probably hoping for. I had no idea that you could
• 28:14
  like, like you said, double up, like take summer
• 28:16
  classes so you could graduate early. I didn't
• 28:18
  even know that was an option. Yeah, I went to,
• 28:20
  I think my advisor, my cap advisor was Nancy
• 28:23
  Cantra. And I was like, hey, I want to get out
• 28:26
  of here faster. What can I do? And she was like,
• 28:28
  you take, take your liberal arts classes in the...
• 28:31
  in the summer. So I was taking my sociology classes,
• 28:37
  blues, jazz. I was doing poetry all in the summer.
• 28:41
  And I actually enjoyed it. I actually enjoyed
• 28:43
  that. that part of it. Yeah. Yeah. Really? Okay.
• 28:46
  Yeah. Yeah. Because if I'm not mistaken, those
• 28:48
  liberal art credits that you speak of, those
• 28:49
  are like sort of the general education classes
• 28:51
  that the sort of basic, the basic requirements
• 28:55
  of being able to get your degree. Why did you
• 28:58
  enjoy that more than your like actual like classes
• 29:01
  that dealt with your musical theater major? I
• 29:03
  think it's what I told you I had already made
• 29:06
  up in my mind. You guys are not gonna, I'm not
• 29:08
  gonna perform. I'm gonna get on my education
• 29:10
  here, but I feel like you guys are not going
• 29:12
  to put me out where I know I can do these parts
• 29:15
  and roles, but you're choosing things that's
• 29:17
  not for me. You know what I mean? So I just was
• 29:19
  like, I'm gonna make the best of it by getting
• 29:21
  my education. Like we didn't learn. I remember
• 29:24
  doing learning Ibsen and doing Hedda Gabler,
• 29:27
  and I was playing roles like that in class. We
• 29:29
  never did August Wilson. We never did. You know
• 29:32
  what I'm saying? We didn't do the things that
• 29:34
  in the real world. Once I went out into the world,
• 29:36
  here's what I was going to be up for. I mean,
• 29:40
  so I just took it for what it was and I just
• 29:41
  enjoyed it. It became because as a kid, I played
• 29:45
  in my room a lot and my creativity and my imagination
• 29:48
  is so huge because of that. I literally started
• 29:51
  looking at acting classes and things like that
• 29:55
  as if I was just in my bedroom again, just in
• 29:57
  front of people. This is after Meisner. And so
• 30:00
  I began to enjoy it, but I didn't have, I wasn't
• 30:03
  going after the things. I was like, let me just
• 30:05
  get my degree and go about my business. And then
• 30:08
  when I would get into the liberal arts classes,
• 30:10
  it was the things that we were talking about,
• 30:12
  sociology and just the history of like literature.
• 30:16
  And it was, I became more like, wow, fascinated
• 30:20
  with that, with that stuff. Like, oh, because
• 30:22
  you got to think from when I was 11 all the way
• 30:25
  till college, all I did was musical theater.
• 30:28
  And yeah, so it was it was it was cool. I just
• 30:31
  enjoyed I I really enjoyed the liberal arts part
• 30:35
  of that. I admire that so much because I was
• 30:38
  the complete opposite of that. Like, literally
• 30:40
  any Ma Fielder class that I had to take, I was
• 30:44
  playing Pac -Man on my laptop because, you know,
• 30:47
  everybody had the fucking MacBook Pros and you
• 30:51
  can easily make it seem like you're taking notes
• 30:53
  and actually listening to all the great theater
• 30:55
  history education that Ma Fielder gave out. But
• 30:58
  I was literally playing Pac -Man because I just
• 31:00
  did that. What's your sign? John, you're a rebel.
• 31:03
  What's your sign? I'm a Sagittarius. Mm -hmm.
• 31:06
  Oh, what is your sign? What is your sign? Come
• 31:09
  on. I'm a Capricorn. So my sister and my boyfriend
• 31:11
  are Sagis. And so I love Sagis, but I think they
• 31:14
  are very much people that are like, y 'all don't
• 31:16
  play the radio to me. Like y 'all are like, you
• 31:20
  know, I'm not, I don't gotta, I'm not subscribing
• 31:23
  to this. I'm out. Right, right, right. I don't
• 31:28
  know, man. I mean, as a sag, I'm all over the
• 31:30
  place. I'm very conflict avoidant. I get intimidated
• 31:34
  by authority, but I also don't like to listen
• 31:36
  to authority and go against the grain. I like
• 31:38
  to do my own thing. Yeah. So my sister and brother
• 31:43
  are Capricorns. What are key attributes of Capricorns?
• 31:48
  You know, people say Capricorns are difficult.
• 31:51
  But what I hear is that we're super ambitious.
• 31:53
  We're about our work. Right. I think we're socially
• 31:56
  awkward at times, I am. We're not the friendliest,
• 32:00
  we're guarded. But I used to be super friendly.
• 32:04
  I think, to me, trauma just kinda happened. My
• 32:07
  experiences with people just kinda got me into
• 32:10
  a space where I was like, mm, mm, it's none of
• 32:12
  your fault, you know what I mean? But yeah, I
• 32:14
  think, yeah, the key factor about a Capricorn
• 32:18
  is the way that they work. They're very tunnel
• 32:20
  visioned and hard workers. Would you say that
• 32:24
  because you say your siblings are do you see
• 32:25
  that in your in your siblings? Um My sister Natalie
• 32:31
  was difficult. Yeah, she would be the like my
• 32:35
  mom She would be the type where stubborn like
• 32:38
  I this is my opinion And if you have a different
• 32:40
  opinion than mine, then I will argue with you
• 32:42
  until you get to my side She used to be like
• 32:45
  that my sister Natalie my mom to some extent
• 32:47
  may still be like that But Natalie got better
• 32:50
  as she got older. CJ, my younger brother, he
• 32:55
  is, to some degree, yeah, there were situations
• 33:00
  where he could be very steadfast in his opinion
• 33:02
  and could be very judgmental of yours if you
• 33:04
  don't agree with him. But he was more willing
• 33:08
  to just move on and let it slide than Natalie.
• 33:11
  As far as ambitious, yeah, sure, they could be
• 33:14
  ambitious in their own right. Yeah, sure. Yeah,
• 33:18
  yeah, but they're definitely, they definitely
• 33:21
  have more of a bondage and are more like in certain
• 33:25
  ways than I'm not, if that makes any sense. Did
• 33:31
  you nationally tour in after you graduated from
• 33:33
  UArts? How did you get that experience? Yeah,
• 33:36
  so I did, I did a TheatreWorks tour, which is...
• 33:40
  I won't say it's not anything, but it's not a
• 33:44
  national tour, but it's for teens, for young
• 33:47
  audiences. And we did a, it's like Junie B. Jones.
• 33:50
  I don't know if you remember those books growing
• 33:51
  up about Junie B. Jones. I've never heard of
• 33:53
  them actually. Well, what are those books? Yeah.
• 33:55
  My mom made me read that in elementary school.
• 33:57
  It would be a full series and they made a musical
• 33:59
  and we would go and tour into different schools.
• 34:02
  Then I finished that and I did Dreamgirls at
• 34:05
  Maine State in the Fulton theater that was in
• 34:07
  Lancaster and in Maine. And then after that,
• 34:11
  I moved to New York for a little bit. Then I
• 34:13
  was looking around and I had a thought that,
• 34:15
  cause there's this thing when you're first in
• 34:16
  New York, now it's different. During my time,
• 34:20
  I was too young to be auditioning. I had an agent
• 34:23
  and everything, but I wasn't really getting anything.
• 34:25
  Cause I'm also not like a dancer dancer. Right.
• 34:29
  The kids today are going out of college, can
• 34:31
  barely even graduate in our booking immediately
• 34:34
  because it's something about the triple threat.
• 34:37
  It's just different. Musical theater is very,
• 34:39
  very different today. It's very pop driven and
• 34:42
  hip hop driven. So yeah, so after I did New York
• 34:46
  for a little bit, I said, I'm gonna go back home.
• 34:48
  And then I started doing regional contracts.
• 34:51
  And then I was in Miami at a point and a workshop
• 34:55
  came around and it was a wonderful world. And
• 34:57
  it was in 2019. Yeah, and I just kept getting
• 35:03
  asked to come back, and I kind of rode the wave
• 35:06
  all the way to Broadway. We went on tour in Louisiana,
• 35:10
  and it was somewhere in Chicago. And then I kind
• 35:14
  of got my first right of refusal, had my manager
• 35:16
  be like, okay, if I do the tour, I got to go
• 35:19
  to the Broadway show. And that's kind of how
• 35:21
  it happened for me. How does a right of refusal
• 35:23
  work? That's something that I've never heard
• 35:25
  of. Yeah, so basically, hey, if I do, if I take
• 35:28
  this contract here and we're going on tour, I'll
• 35:30
  take it for this month, but you have to take
• 35:32
  me to Broadway. No matter what. Like, I'm in
• 35:36
  it. I don't know how I'm gonna be in it, but
• 35:38
  I'm in it. You gotta take me. So, yeah. I figured
• 35:41
  having that sort of like, this is what I'm negotiating
• 35:47
  and it's nothing else. I thought that's something
• 35:50
  that someone with a bigger list of credits would
• 35:54
  get the option to do, but you're saying that
• 35:56
  no matter what, you could really be steadfast
• 36:00
  in that right to refuse. Yeah. Well, I did it
• 36:04
  was it was moments where I thought I wasn't gonna
• 36:05
  go so it did not have the big credits at that
• 36:09
  time But I think I was a hard worker and I think
• 36:11
  that I think that the director was a loyal Director
• 36:16
  and the fact that you know, we helped build this
• 36:19
  thing from you know, and I think that it was
• 36:21
  like, okay we're gonna bring certain people back
• 36:23
  and I think I got the opportunity. So I think
• 36:25
  it was the hard work, being consistent, showing
• 36:27
  up. I had played a few of the wives' roles as
• 36:31
  understudy and just, you know, showing up and
• 36:35
  being consistent. And, you know, I think you'll
• 36:39
  always get the job when you're out of the way.
• 36:41
  and focusing just doing your part, you know what
• 36:43
  I mean? Right, right. I'm so curious about that
• 36:46
  entire Louis Armstrong Broadway experience. My
• 36:49
  wife and I, and by the way, I didn't even know
• 36:51
  you were in the show. I literally did not know
• 36:53
  until we sat in the theater. And I think, wasn't
• 36:57
  the Louis Armstrong musical, you guys were in
• 36:58
  what used to be Studio 54, like the famous dance
• 37:01
  nightclub, right? Yeah, yeah. So you were in
• 37:03
  Studio 54. I think you were, weren't you right
• 37:05
  next to like the Ed Sullivan Theater where Stephen
• 37:07
  Colbert used to do his show? Uh -huh. Uh -huh.
• 37:09
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. So you were there.
• 37:11
  Yeah, no, no, I, you know, I wanted to just take
• 37:16
  in as many Broadway shows as possible in New
• 37:18
  York for my birthday weekend. My wife came along
• 37:20
  with me. Louis Armstrong musical that seemed
• 37:22
  like one of the interesting shows to take on.
• 37:25
  And then, yeah, literally, I look through the
• 37:28
  playbill and I see... God, there's Khadija. Like
• 37:31
  I used to go to school with her. What the heck?
• 37:33
  And I tell my wife about this. We see the show.
• 37:35
  It's fantastic. Oh my God. Like, you know, the
• 37:38
  way you guys just musically, um, told the story
• 37:41
  of Louis Armstrong and what he meant to jazz
• 37:44
  music and of course all his wives. And then you
• 37:46
  played one of the ensemble, uh, dance and singer
• 37:50
  performers. Tell me about that entire experience
• 37:53
  on Broadway, because I'm always fascinated by
• 37:56
  Broadway. Uh, because to me, It's like the performing
• 38:01
  equivalent of a factory job. You know what I
• 38:04
  mean? Like where it's like, you know, you, you
• 38:06
  clock in, you, you, you, you, you sweat it out,
• 38:09
  you clock out, and then you do it again the next
• 38:11
  day. It's like, it's not like a film and TV set
• 38:15
  where. It could vary. I mean, you know, if you're
• 38:19
  doing, like, a single -camera drama, of course,
• 38:21
  you're gonna do your 12 or 13 hours on set, and
• 38:23
  a lot of that, you could be waiting around in
• 38:24
  your trailer, waiting for your time to come up.
• 38:27
  Or it could be, like, a sitcom where it's much
• 38:30
  easier. You probably, you know, shoot scenes
• 38:32
  here and there, and then you get to, you know,
• 38:34
  end your workday at 2 p .m. But Broadway, like,
• 38:36
  you guys are really sweating it out there on
• 38:38
  stage, eight shows a week. So just talk to me
• 38:41
  about... All of that. Like, what was it like,
• 38:43
  you know, being out there on the Broadway stage
• 38:45
  night after night after night and doing that?
• 38:49
  Not only as the ensemble, but as you mentioned,
• 38:51
  like, you had to, you know, understudy. You had
• 38:53
  to sub in for one of the bigger wife characters.
• 38:56
  Like, what was that all like? Yeah. Well, first
• 39:00
  of all, I'm gonna start by saying I felt... extremely
• 39:03
  grateful to even have the opportunity because
• 39:04
  it was something I've been trying to get to for
• 39:07
  forever. And it was awesome. I met a lot of people.
• 39:11
  I had a great time watching and seeing how other
• 39:13
  people worked, especially like the leads and
• 39:15
  how disciplined they had to be and consistent
• 39:18
  in their lives that they had to be to be able
• 39:20
  to carry their roles, how tired they were. I
• 39:24
  remember being on stage one day and a lead crying
• 39:26
  because they were so tired and just having to
• 39:28
  work through it. And it's a very straining This
• 39:31
  job, though, eight shows a week. You don't really
• 39:34
  have a life. Yeah, yeah, because, like, Monday
• 39:37
  is the only day that you have off. And I think,
• 39:40
  what's the whole thing? Is it, like, one Tuesday,
• 39:42
  two Wednesdays? Tell me the whole schedule. Well,
• 39:45
  for us, we did, for us, it was just a Tuesday
• 39:47
  off instead of the Monday because of, I forgot
• 39:50
  why they did it that way. But on that one day
• 39:53
  off, you're getting everything done that you
• 39:55
  need to get done that you weren't able to get
• 39:57
  done. So all your adulting things, like a dentist
• 39:59
  appointment. paying a bill, all the things, because
• 40:04
  you're sleeping to make sure you could get back
• 40:07
  up and do that show again, especially on the
• 40:09
  two show days. And you're in the room with a
• 40:12
  bunch of women, and that's different if you're
• 40:14
  not a lead. I think schools should teach this,
• 40:20
  because this is just as important. It's not just
• 40:22
  about performance. It's also learning how to
• 40:24
  be around people and how to carry yourself as
• 40:26
  a product, because you're a business yourself.
• 40:29
  Yeah. Knowing how to carry yourself, knowing
• 40:32
  what to not be involved in, knowing how to, what
• 40:35
  to talk about, what to say, what things to not
• 40:38
  show up to, you know, it was, it was, it's not
• 40:41
  just people think it's a glamorous job. And I
• 40:44
  get that, but it's also a lot of peopling. And
• 40:47
  if you're not a people person that might not,
• 40:50
  you know, it's a, it's. Would you describe yourself
• 40:53
  as a, as a successful people person during that
• 40:55
  frame of time? Um, I think. I did a great job
• 40:58
  in showing up, hey everybody, da da da, and kind
• 41:01
  of just honing in. I don't think I can do better
• 41:05
  with, I feel like I can do better with networking.
• 41:07
  I think I'm in a different place now. It's just
• 41:11
  such, it's a different. It's a different level.
• 41:14
  I mean, I want to be careful what I'm saying,
• 41:18
  but it's an industry in which you have, it's
• 41:21
  almost like you're putting on a persona as well.
• 41:23
  Like not only are you going in to act a role,
• 41:26
  but you as the product also have to put on, it
• 41:29
  feels like you have to put on this role as well
• 41:32
  because maybe you can't be as transparent because
• 41:34
  everybody is always in competition. It's always
• 41:37
  a competitive thing. You think you might be making
• 41:41
  a friend, but really you're... You're not. And
• 41:43
  so learning the game in that way was a thing
• 41:46
  as well. And then after I had the experience,
• 41:49
  I was like, I like this. Thank you, God. I want
• 41:52
  to try something different now. Thank you for
• 41:54
  giving me the thing that I worked on for years.
• 41:58
  I don't know if I really want to get I don't
• 42:00
  I don't I'm a family oriented girl too. I want
• 42:02
  to get married. I want to have kids. I did the
• 42:05
  girl who I understudied the woman who I understudied
• 42:08
  was married and had children and I watched her
• 42:10
  do and I thought it was amazing. But married
• 42:14
  with children and living in New York City. and
• 42:17
  married with children living in New York City
• 42:19
  and was one of the lead wives. She was amazing.
• 42:21
  She was phenomenal. And I understudied her. And
• 42:25
  not only did I understudy her as the role, I
• 42:27
  watched her as a woman and a wife because that
• 42:30
  is important to me. And I think some people in
• 42:33
  New York, they're so ambitious that they're not
• 42:35
  thinking like that. Nothing is wrong with that.
• 42:38
  I just think that New York breeds, you know,
• 42:42
  people who are That's the focus, that intensity.
• 42:45
  And I have this thing where I'm like, I've wanted
• 42:47
  this thing and I love this thing and I'm open
• 42:50
  to whatever God gives me moving forward, but
• 42:52
  I also want a family. You know, I am so fascinated
• 42:57
  by all of what you're saying, because here's
• 42:59
  what here's what was rolling around in my mind.
• 43:02
  You talk about being content with that Broadway
• 43:05
  experience, but wanting something different.
• 43:07
  But like, you know, the show closes like what?
• 43:11
  When did the show open and when did it close?
• 43:13
  Literally three months. So we built this show
• 43:17
  for four or five years. Yeah. Right. 2019 was
• 43:21
  the first time I'd heard about it. It opened,
• 43:24
  we went into rehearsals in August of 2024. It
• 43:28
  opened in October. We were closed by February,
• 43:31
  like the beginning of February. Like we got the
• 43:33
  announcement sometime in January. So like three
• 43:35
  months, not, no, we opened in November. Sorry,
• 43:38
  we opened in November. And yeah, it just wasn't
• 43:42
  a, because Broadway, the ticket sales, the way,
• 43:45
  the politicking of it all, it's very different
• 43:49
  now. my mind was like, oh, so, because I moved
• 43:54
  to New York for A Wonderful World, and then it
• 43:55
  kind of got taken, and I was like, I don't like
• 43:57
  that feeling. It's, yeah. How can I, yeah, and
• 44:01
  also even in auditioning and waiting for somebody
• 44:04
  to tell me that I'm good enough to do the next
• 44:05
  production, and just that kind of thing for me,
• 44:08
  I was like, I think I'm done with that, and I
• 44:10
  want to create my own stuff, and how am I going
• 44:12
  to do that? Yeah, we're on the same journey.
• 44:14
  We're on the same journey. Yeah, because I used
• 44:17
  to be very much like that with acting. I had
• 44:21
  like two instances, one getting out of college
• 44:24
  and then the other last year where I thought,
• 44:27
  all right, maybe I want to like dive into acting
• 44:28
  more intensely professionally, really get into
• 44:31
  it full time, go on the auditions and stuff like
• 44:33
  that. And then in both instances... Uh, you know,
• 44:37
  the earlier one where I was just getting out
• 44:38
  of college and trying it professionally, I, uh,
• 44:42
  did not like the lack of stability. And that's,
• 44:45
  I know that sounds very stupid and naive, but
• 44:47
  the lack of, uh, stability with getting Yeah,
• 44:52
  but like with yeah, the lack of like financial
• 44:54
  stability and just you never know when your next
• 44:56
  role is going to come in. But also I was extremely
• 44:59
  hard on myself 10 or so years ago. So when you
• 45:03
  combine those two, of course, it's going to be
• 45:05
  a terrible experience and you want to move on
• 45:06
  to something else. So I pivoted to broadcasting
• 45:09
  and now podcasting. And then I tried to get back
• 45:12
  into acting in a more intense way last year,
• 45:15
  because I was having sort of a midlife crisis,
• 45:17
  like, oh, shit. You'd be like, I was having that
• 45:21
  moment where it's like, oh, I'm in my thirties.
• 45:23
  And this thing that I thought would be this big
• 45:25
  thing in my life when I was like 17, 18, whatever,
• 45:27
  like maybe I should try that again. And then
• 45:29
  quickly realizing, oh, wait a minute. That's
• 45:32
  not who I am anymore. Like I can still enjoy
• 45:35
  doing acting. Like I can, like I can, I did a,
• 45:38
  I did one of those micro dramas in LA and um,
• 45:42
  I, I act in theater locally here in Vermont every
• 45:45
  now and then. So I still enjoy it, but to the
• 45:48
  degree that I thought I was going to. do it at
• 45:51
  when I was in my teens and twenties. That's,
• 45:53
  that's just not where I am anymore. And it's
• 45:55
  going back to what you said, which is just, I
• 45:58
  just find more value and joy in creating my own
• 46:02
  shit and calling the shots rather than that part.
• 46:05
  Yeah, exactly. Rather than like, Oh my God, please,
• 46:08
  like this established person, please give me
• 46:10
  validation. Please pick me. That part, that part.
• 46:15
  That's exactly what it was. And again, I do love.
• 46:17
  musical theater, and I do think that it'll come
• 46:20
  back at some point. But I just wanted to work
• 46:23
  on something different and not necessarily call
• 46:26
  the shots for me, but just be more in control
• 46:29
  of my life. I'm a big believer in time is freedom.
• 46:33
  And because of how much the eight show week was,
• 46:35
  I was like, I do not have, I like my time. I
• 46:39
  like. I like easing into my morning and my day.
• 46:43
  I love, hey, sweetheart, what are we doing today?
• 46:45
  What are we going to do? And he has a son and
• 46:47
  we spend time with him. I am a quality time girl.
• 46:50
  And that's what it is. When I was in my 20s,
• 46:53
  I loved pounding the pavement and doing that
• 46:56
  and traveling for three months to stay at this
• 46:58
  theater. And now I'm going to go to this theater.
• 47:00
  And now at 35, I just think I have different
• 47:03
  interests. And it's how am I going to... feed
• 47:06
  that itch of my imagination and creativity while
• 47:09
  also building my family. So interesting that
• 47:11
  you said that because like when you made the
• 47:13
  announcement on social media that Louis Armstrong,
• 47:15
  the musical was closing, I'm thinking, okay,
• 47:19
  well, this must hurt a lot for Khadijah. She
• 47:22
  got a big Broadway role and now what is she gonna
• 47:26
  do now? And now like I'm hearing you talk about
• 47:29
  this experience and I wonder like... Oh, maybe
• 47:32
  you felt some relief inside when the show closed.
• 47:36
  Was there some or was it complete disappointment
• 47:39
  that your professional thing wasn't? That's an
• 47:43
  awesome question. In that moment, no, I was upset
• 47:47
  at first. I was like, damn, I at least thought
• 47:48
  I was going to have a year to save up my money
• 47:51
  because I will say, I love the Broadway check.
• 47:55
  It was good. It was a good check. I loved the
• 47:57
  Broadway check and I knew that I came in trying
• 48:00
  to save a certain amount and I was super so you
• 48:03
  and you move there you thinking that I had I
• 48:06
  was enjoying the lifestyle of it all too, meaning
• 48:08
  I would go out afterwards and go grab a drink
• 48:11
  and we would be out and just meeting different
• 48:13
  people and then going home and going to bed and
• 48:16
  sleeping all day because you knew you had to
• 48:18
  do another show. I was enjoying it. I enjoyed
• 48:21
  it. Meeting the new people, like fighting myself
• 48:26
  in spaces with people who were famous and getting
• 48:29
  to know them and understand how they live and
• 48:32
  how they got to where they got to. At when it
• 48:36
  was time, I already knew though that after, cause
• 48:40
  I don't know if you know, I'm a spiritual person.
• 48:44
  And rather than just saying spiritual, I have
• 48:46
  a relationship with God. That's what I will say.
• 48:49
  And I felt that God told me already, I was already
• 48:52
  preparing Eden's Garden backstage and kind of
• 48:55
  knew that once this was done, that this was happening.
• 48:57
  So I was sad that we had put all this work into
• 49:00
  it. And it was like, dang, oh man, my check.
• 49:03
  But okay, I got this prepared. Let me do what
• 49:06
  I got to do with this. I'm excited. It was something
• 49:09
  exciting about building Eden's Garden, too, because
• 49:11
  I had never done it. So it was a different kind
• 49:14
  of excitement versus fitting into somebody else's
• 49:18
  creativity or story versus, oh, this is the world
• 49:22
  that I'm creating. And now I get to make it what
• 49:24
  I want it to be. Thank you for setting up that
• 49:28
  perfect transition into Eden's garden your your
• 49:31
  your wonderful children's educational project
• 49:34
  I I mean look, I'll be honest like Talking to
• 49:38
  you as someone who's performed on Broadway who
• 49:40
  was able to afford living in New York City I
• 49:43
  want to ask how much was your rent and how much
• 49:45
  was that check? I don't want to get you in trouble
• 49:47
  though. So yeah prefer to keep that private.
• 49:49
  That's okay. Yeah No, so I was staying with my
• 49:52
  aunt and she did not make me pay rent. So my
• 49:54
  aunt wanted me, she's 80 years old and she just
• 49:58
  wanted some companionship and she was like, I
• 50:00
  want you to save up your money because New York
• 50:03
  is nuts, right? So I was blessed in that way.
• 50:07
  Okay, I believe my check was before taxes, at
• 50:11
  least 3 ,000 a week. That's my bad. But imagine
• 50:15
  that $1 ,200 is coming out of it. Yeah. Right
• 50:18
  on the top. You know what I mean? Because New
• 50:19
  York is just... It's insane. It's New York. Yeah.
• 50:21
  Yeah. So, but it was pretty... And that was as
• 50:24
  an ensemble member who was understudying somebody.
• 50:27
  And I'm sure that if I had... of the roles on
• 50:31
  Broadway, I could have maybe gotten a bit more.
• 50:33
  So the pay is nice. It was worth it. Yeah. Because
• 50:38
  I came from teaching. And in Florida, you're
• 50:40
  not getting paid to teach. Oh, I bet. So I was
• 50:43
  grateful for it. I was like, yeah, you're gonna
• 50:45
  get me. That's good. That's good. Yeah, no. So
• 50:51
  yesterday on the ride home from work, I caught
• 50:54
  the five mini episodes of Eden's Garden, your
• 50:58
  children's educational project. Wonderful. Really
• 51:01
  wonderful. I loved the puppetry and want to know
• 51:05
  about that. I love the inspiring message, the
• 51:08
  songs that you sung with the Eden character,
• 51:13
  because I assume that she's Eden. And also I
• 51:17
  hope you don't take this as a bad or a stereotypical
• 51:19
  thing, but from the get -go watching this show,
• 51:23
  I was reminded of watching Gullah Gullah Island
• 51:26
  on Nick Jr. growing up. So was that sort of an
• 51:29
  inspiration you were going for or no? No, you
• 51:31
  know, I think it just happened. But yes, I remember
• 51:35
  Gullah Gullah Island was something I watched
• 51:37
  growing up. I was very much, I didn't realize
• 51:39
  how much children's TV really, children's media
• 51:43
  really... influenced my childhood and me as a
• 51:49
  human being. And I think the kids today, I watch
• 51:53
  some of the things they're watching and I'm like,
• 51:54
  they don't really have this thing. And I think
• 51:56
  the messaging because of social media, children
• 52:00
  don't know who they want to be. They're just
• 52:02
  being what they think everybody else is telling
• 52:05
  them. I think when we were kids, I don't know
• 52:06
  if you felt this way, we had a chance to figure
• 52:09
  out who we wanted to be first. You know what
• 52:12
  I'm saying? Yeah, so that's kind of was the inspiration
• 52:17
  for me I also had a vocal studio back at home
• 52:19
  in Miami and I was working one -on -one with
• 52:22
  kids like high school But it was from six years
• 52:24
  old all the way to high school Well what I was
• 52:27
  noticing around middle school and high school
• 52:29
  That these kids were dealing with things that
• 52:31
  I hadn't that I didn't remember dealing with
• 52:34
  around my teenage years and The icing on the
• 52:37
  cake for me was a student coming in and saying
• 52:39
  that they had planned their suicide And as a
• 52:41
  mandated reporter, I had to call. I had to report
• 52:45
  it. And she had she had a plan for how she was
• 52:48
  going to do it. She was like, I'm going to graduate
• 52:50
  and give. It was this pressure that she was feeling
• 52:51
  from her parents. She thought she had to be perfect.
• 52:54
  She didn't feel like she was enough. She didn't
• 52:55
  feel like she had enough accomplishments and
• 52:58
  accolades. It almost social media to me almost
• 53:01
  makes children think it feels like. they think
• 53:05
  they're supposed to be accomplishing more than
• 53:06
  what they are. But when we were teenagers, we
• 53:08
  were just living. We were just being who we were.
• 53:12
  And I saw a lot of identity issues, a lot of
• 53:16
  comparison, just a lot of things. And some of
• 53:19
  the things you're seeing in Eden's Garden are
• 53:21
  things that I dealt with myself, even as an adult.
• 53:23
  Yeah. So dive into the story of Eden and you
• 53:30
  and what role you play. Just give us all the
• 53:34
  picture about what the show's about. Yeah. So
• 53:37
  Eden is a seven -year -old African -American
• 53:39
  girl. We're in Miami, of course, because that's
• 53:42
  where I'm from, so we're gonna go take it back.
• 53:45
  And she is journeying through the world with
• 53:48
  her community, with her Auntie Kay and their
• 53:50
  so -and -sees of learning about God, but also
• 53:53
  about who they are and character development
• 53:56
  and social and emotional growth and learning
• 53:59
  and how to speak up and talk and problem -solve
• 54:04
  and have... conversations and things that I just
• 54:08
  feel like aren't happening. And so in this garden,
• 54:10
  we're learning about all of that. And we're learning,
• 54:12
  we have different community and each each character
• 54:15
  has something different that they're dealing
• 54:16
  with. And every character we see is somebody
• 54:19
  that I actually have met or I've seen in my students
• 54:23
  when I've taught. And because my kids would come
• 54:25
  and talk to me. Sometimes I didn't even want
• 54:28
  to hear what they was talking about. You know,
• 54:30
  yeah. So NTK is the role that I play. Of course,
• 54:34
  I wrote myself into it because it was, it was,
• 54:37
  it was what she said. I said, I'm going to give
• 54:38
  myself a part. I'm going to give myself a job.
• 54:41
  You know, um, and NTK is kind of the voice of
• 54:44
  reason she's teaching, but she's also not, she
• 54:47
  also can be taught as well. So if it's an, it's,
• 54:50
  it's a place where adults have accountability
• 54:52
  too. Yeah. You know? Um, so yeah. Uh, so Eden,
• 54:58
  the seven year old, she. looks like, like a Jim
• 55:02
  Henson Muppet quality puppet. Can you describe
• 55:06
  what led to the decision to make her a puppet?
• 55:11
  What, and who physically made the puppet and
• 55:14
  how did you come across the voice actor for the
• 55:16
  puppet? Like give me all of that, if, if you
• 55:18
  can. Yes. Okay. So Eden, I. I dreamt her up.
• 55:22
  I tried to design her. I went to some, I basically
• 55:24
  drew her out, but then I realized very quickly,
• 55:26
  okay, girl, you can't draw. You're gonna have
• 55:28
  to go to somebody. So I went to this guy, his
• 55:30
  name is Mark. He also went to my middle school.
• 55:32
  He was in the arts program. And I started telling
• 55:34
  Mark what I saw. I said, I don't want her to
• 55:36
  quite look like a Sesame Street character, but
• 55:39
  she, I want her to have braids and this is what
• 55:42
  I see. She has a tongue that's a heart because
• 55:45
  she speaks truth and love. all these things.
• 55:48
  And then I reached out to another friend. So
• 55:50
  I had to kind of go on my network that I didn't
• 55:52
  realize that I had. We went to New World together
• 55:54
  and I saw that he knew this guy who I realized
• 55:57
  was building puppets. I was circulating. for
• 56:00
  at least two years before I finally reached out,
• 56:02
  I will watch this guy's work. And finally, I
• 56:04
  reached out to my friend. I said, hey, can you
• 56:06
  put me in contact with this guy? His name is
• 56:08
  David Colston Coors. And I reached out to David
• 56:11
  and I tell him what I'm trying to do. I'm like,
• 56:14
  I'm not a puppetry girl. The reason why I wanted
• 56:16
  a puppet is because I just wanted to deal with
• 56:18
  a different element. I wanted to go back to that
• 56:21
  Gullah Gullah Island feel, like you said, that
• 56:24
  much more, when Tom's felt simpler to me, in
• 56:27
  my opinion. And so, I told him about it and it
• 56:31
  took us, it took him a year to get it because
• 56:33
  then when we got to the hair part, I was very
• 56:36
  picky about it. And then I got my director through
• 56:39
  my boyfriend who has a great following on social
• 56:42
  media. And I'm telling him about all the things
• 56:45
  that I'm trying to do at the time. And he's thinking
• 56:47
  I'm weird at first. And then finally I pull out
• 56:50
  my scripts. And he's like, Whoa, I start playing
• 56:53
  the music that I'm putting in my Venmo and dah,
• 56:55
  dah, dah, dah, dah. Like I wrote everything.
• 56:58
  And he was like, Oh my God, this is actually
• 57:00
  really good. Like I'm going to reach out to somebody.
• 57:03
  So he said, I think I saw this person. I think
• 57:05
  I see this guy. And I was, I was given every
• 57:07
  reason as to why this person wasn't going to
• 57:09
  do it with me. I was like, oh, he's a Sesame
• 57:11
  Street guy. He was on Baron the Big Blue House.
• 57:14
  He was Ooby. He played all these things. He's
• 57:17
  been in the game forever. And I just thought
• 57:18
  he wouldn't be interested. Well, Ulysses reached
• 57:21
  out. He explained what the project was. And the
• 57:24
  guy hopped on a Zoom. He said, I'm curious. I
• 57:25
  want to know what this is about. And his name
• 57:27
  is Tyler Bunch. And once Tyler and I got on a
• 57:30
  call and I shared the project, he was like, I
• 57:33
  like this. I want to get involved. That happened.
• 57:36
  The guy, David, who built it says, I think I
• 57:39
  know him. who would be great for this role. Her
• 57:42
  name is Jamika. I thought the same thing. I was
• 57:45
  like, she's not gonna wanna do it, because she's
• 57:47
  on Sesame Street, she's done all these things.
• 57:50
  And so he was like, no, I think you should reach
• 57:52
  out. So I emailed her, I sent her the music,
• 57:55
  some of the music, I sent her the scripts. She's
• 57:57
  like, wow, I would love to hear more about this
• 58:01
  and hop on a call. And she was also interested
• 58:03
  in it as well. So it just kinda came together.
• 58:06
  And Jamika plays... Eden, Jamika plays Eden.
• 58:10
  She's this amazing puppeteer. She's been in a
• 58:13
  few things and she's just really awesome. She
• 58:15
  also went to school, I think, for musical theater.
• 58:17
  And then somehow she said she switched into puppetry
• 58:20
  because it's a world that I think not a lot of
• 58:23
  people are in. And so she kind of find her niche
• 58:26
  through that. Like she said, she really went
• 58:29
  ham practicing puppetry in the pandemic. made
• 58:35
  our way to where she is now she's amazing i think
• 58:37
  what what what i'm hearing is just the value
• 58:41
  of believing in yourself and. Yes when you're
• 58:47
  creating something like this. I know, like as,
• 58:50
  you know, the podcasts are creating my own content.
• 58:53
  It could feel great, but you also are very vulnerable
• 58:56
  because this is something that you're producing.
• 58:59
  It means a lot to you. You are understandably
• 59:01
  going to be sensitive to how others will receive
• 59:03
  it, especially, you know, if they're on an established
• 59:06
  level, like Jamaica, you know, working on Sesame
• 59:08
  street. Um, but I love how you didn't give in
• 59:12
  to those negative thoughts or that fear, like,
• 59:15
  Oh my God, what if they don't accept it? What
• 59:16
  if they don't want it? And just said, Like, I'm
• 59:19
  just gonna take a chance and submit it. And the
• 59:24
  worst that can happen is already the negative
• 59:28
  thoughts that are going through my head. So,
• 59:30
  like, there's really nothing worse that could
• 59:32
  happen. So let me just... And what happened?
• 59:33
  Like, you took a shot and they said, yes, we
• 59:35
  love your vision, and here you are. And I realized,
• 59:39
  John, it's gonna keep being that. It's always
• 59:41
  a moment of, all right, fuck it. It's always
• 59:43
  been a moment of that, where I'm like... Okay,
• 59:46
  so right now Eden's Garden is getting ready to
• 59:48
  be produced at a theater. And I went, so it's
• 59:52
  going to be called Eden's Garden Live and it's
• 59:53
  an actual hour musical. Nice. I'm so excited
• 59:58
  about it. And I didn't, when I got into the meeting
• 1:00:00
  with the guy, I thought I had to put on all this
• 1:00:03
  stuff. I was like, yeah. And so, and he was like,
• 1:00:06
  yeah, he didn't even read the script. He was
• 1:00:09
  like, hey, let's have a meeting on what you need
• 1:00:11
  so that we could produce it. And it's like he
• 1:00:13
  already had it made up in his mind that he was
• 1:00:16
  going to do it because he had his eye on it for
• 1:00:18
  a while. It made me realize that, yeah, you just
• 1:00:21
  kind of work what's in your hand. You put yourself
• 1:00:23
  out there and you just, the worst that could
• 1:00:25
  happen is a no. And nine times out of 10, if
• 1:00:28
  you're doing the work and you really love it
• 1:00:30
  and you're passionate about it, I think it will
• 1:00:33
  read. I think it reads and the people who are
• 1:00:35
  supposed to be a part of it are gonna come and
• 1:00:38
  it's gonna do what it needs to do. But I'm always
• 1:00:41
  shocked. I ain't gonna even, I'm always like,
• 1:00:44
  okay, we're doing this, okay? Eden Skarden, the
• 1:00:49
  title. I was wondering how that came about because
• 1:00:53
  I'm thinking like, okay, there is a religious
• 1:00:56
  spiritual element to it. You're talking to Eden
• 1:00:58
  about like her God -given gifts. So did it come
• 1:01:01
  from the Garden of Eden from the Bible? Okay.
• 1:01:05
  Okay. Tell me about that. Yeah. Because when
• 1:01:07
  I look at it was a play on words for sure. I'm
• 1:01:09
  like, I mean, it's a garden and we're in her
• 1:01:11
  garden. It's for her. So we're going to call
• 1:01:13
  it Eden's garden. But when I think of the Garden
• 1:01:14
  of Eden in the Bible, I think of how God wanted
• 1:01:17
  it to just be this place. It was meant to be
• 1:01:20
  this place of purity and just what he created
• 1:01:23
  us to be. We weren't supposed to be working hard
• 1:01:26
  to pay bills and doing all, he gave it to us.
• 1:01:31
  He gave us the land. He said we were gonna dominate
• 1:01:34
  it. We were gonna run it. He gave us dominion.
• 1:01:36
  He gave us power. And in my mind, I believe that's
• 1:01:39
  like the natural state of what humanity was supposed
• 1:01:43
  to be. Just this, you know, just living. Like
• 1:01:47
  right now I feel like we worry about so much.
• 1:01:49
  but everybody's trying to figure out how we're
• 1:01:51
  gonna make ends meet in this economy. And so
• 1:01:54
  when I think of the Garden of Eden, I'm thinking
• 1:01:56
  of the restoration of what humanity was supposed
• 1:02:00
  to be. So in this garden, we're just learning
• 1:02:03
  how to just be who we are. That's kind of how
• 1:02:06
  that connected for me. So all the references
• 1:02:08
  to God and the relationship that Eden can have
• 1:02:11
  with God, I was watching this as in... as an
• 1:02:18
  agnostic person, I think that's the word. And
• 1:02:20
  I was raised by Baptist Christian parents, so
• 1:02:25
  I grew up in the church. So I'm familiar with
• 1:02:27
  all that. But as I was watching it in my current
• 1:02:30
  state, I was curious about it. I was curious
• 1:02:32
  about how this would be perceived by someone
• 1:02:34
  who doesn't have the same relationship with God
• 1:02:39
  as you and Eden do in this show. And how... And
• 1:02:44
  I wonder if you've had commentary about that
• 1:02:47
  from people who have watched, like, how would
• 1:02:50
  you pitch or how would you talk to those people
• 1:02:53
  who may not? who may not get that relationship
• 1:02:58
  with God that you and Eden have in the show,
• 1:02:59
  you know what I mean? Yeah, no, that's an awesome
• 1:03:01
  question. So Tyler came in like that as well.
• 1:03:04
  And that's why it was so cool to have him because
• 1:03:07
  I didn't want it to come off religious. I didn't
• 1:03:12
  want it to feel like it was a show for Christians.
• 1:03:14
  I wanted it to feel like it was for people who
• 1:03:16
  were even curious about it. And say you don't
• 1:03:19
  believe. But here's some lessons that I feel
• 1:03:21
  that all of us can learn. And this is what is
• 1:03:24
  rooted in in the garden. And I'm not shoving
• 1:03:26
  it down your throat, but here come, welcome into
• 1:03:29
  the garden. Here's what's going on. I also think
• 1:03:31
  that it's not for everybody. I also understand
• 1:03:34
  that anytime anybody's, anybody's creating something,
• 1:03:37
  you're not going to win everybody over. It might
• 1:03:39
  not be your cup of tea, but there is an audience
• 1:03:42
  for it. And it's kind of like Tyler Perry says,
• 1:03:45
  I feel like I look at Tyler Perry. I even watched
• 1:03:48
  some of his stuff and I'm like, Tyler. No, Tyler.
• 1:03:54
  Calm down on the pitchiness. Yeah, yeah. But
• 1:03:56
  he's a billionaire. He's found his audience.
• 1:04:02
  Yeah. his people and he's continued to, to, he
• 1:04:05
  hasn't forgotten who that audience is. And he's
• 1:04:07
  become successful from just giving, having a
• 1:04:10
  formula and giving that. And so I kind of went
• 1:04:13
  into it with that same thing. Like, you know,
• 1:04:15
  this might not be for everybody. I'm also not
• 1:04:17
  excluding people. This is not a, we not doing,
• 1:04:20
  you, if you ain't doing this, you ain't, no,
• 1:04:22
  it's not that that's not what this is about.
• 1:04:24
  Cause I actually don't agree with that. It's
• 1:04:27
  about, hey, community, loving people despite
• 1:04:30
  differences. It's actually going against the
• 1:04:32
  grain of what our political Christianity looks
• 1:04:36
  like today. It's actually like, hey, that's not,
• 1:04:39
  that's not. What we're teaching is this here's
• 1:04:42
  what we're gonna teach everybody gonna love everybody
• 1:04:44
  And we're gonna learn how to how to live amongst
• 1:04:47
  each other Have you know what I mean? Like it's
• 1:04:50
  more in that space. So but I do to answer your
• 1:04:52
  question I understand that everybody everybody
• 1:04:55
  might have a different Outlook on things that
• 1:04:58
  might not be subscribing to God and whoever God
• 1:05:01
  is for them But I hope you still felt welcome
• 1:05:05
  and I hope you didn't feel when you watched it
• 1:05:07
  that that I was trying to convince you. No, no,
• 1:05:10
  no, not at all. No, no, no, no. And I love that
• 1:05:12
  you said that you were not trying to shove it
• 1:05:14
  down people's throats because I didn't get that
• 1:05:15
  feeling at all. I got that. you were staying
• 1:05:19
  true to your spirituality, your relationship
• 1:05:22
  with God, and you wanted that to reflect in this
• 1:05:25
  content that you were producing, that you worked
• 1:05:28
  hard on. And at the same time, I saw universal
• 1:05:32
  themes that anybody, religious, non -religious,
• 1:05:34
  could relate to. And most importantly, as a young
• 1:05:37
  person growing up in this age of the internet
• 1:05:39
  and social media, is just being able to believe
• 1:05:42
  in yourself, not... you know, get caught up in
• 1:05:45
  the toxic online cyberbullying bubble of it all,
• 1:05:48
  and just be grounded, find who you are, believe
• 1:05:52
  in yourself. And yeah, so I thought it was great.
• 1:05:55
  I mean, I did not feel like you were preaching
• 1:05:57
  a sermon, so thank you. Perfect. And Mr. Rogers,
• 1:06:00
  I don't know if you remember Mr. Rogers. I love
• 1:06:02
  Mr. Rogers, yeah, of course. Mr. Rogers was a
• 1:06:03
  pastor, and if you look at his stuff, if you
• 1:06:06
  watch his stuff, it was Bible -based. He just
• 1:06:10
  was very, at the journey to town, they couldn't
• 1:06:11
  say that. Like, they couldn't... talk about it
• 1:06:14
  and I love the way he did it. I think I was maybe
• 1:06:17
  a bit bolder by putting God's name in there.
• 1:06:20
  You know what I'm saying? And it was a thing.
• 1:06:22
  We talked about it. People was like, you know,
• 1:06:24
  I think that this might happen if you do. I had
• 1:06:28
  all the talks. I had all the people. Here's what
• 1:06:30
  I think. I get it. I don't want it. You know,
• 1:06:32
  and my thing was always, you know, why don't
• 1:06:35
  you take it to a church and let church funders
• 1:06:37
  fund it. I don't want it to be attached to a
• 1:06:38
  church because I don't want to exclude. This
• 1:06:41
  is for everybody, you know? So, yeah. Um, I am
• 1:06:45
  so fascinated by, like, sort of the technical
• 1:06:48
  production process. I was watching, um, these
• 1:06:51
  episodes, and in particular, the one that stands
• 1:06:53
  out to me, I think this was episode five, where,
• 1:06:56
  uh, you had the, uh, who's that, who's that,
• 1:06:59
  uh, uh, that kid, that, that boy? Kamal? Kamal,
• 1:07:03
  yeah, yeah, yeah. The character's named Damari
• 1:07:05
  Pierre. He's amazing. Remind me in the audience,
• 1:07:07
  uh, what that episode was about, like, your relationship
• 1:07:10
  with him in that episode. Okay, so, um, episode
• 1:07:13
  five is about... just being honest, telling the
• 1:07:15
  truth the first time. You know what I mean? And
• 1:07:17
  basically, if you tell the truth, when you don't
• 1:07:19
  tell the truth, you dig yourself in a deeper
• 1:07:21
  hole. It's much more simpler than what you think.
• 1:07:23
  Just being a person of integrity. And Kamal is
• 1:07:26
  a 16 -year -old African -American boy who is
• 1:07:30
  extremely talented. He raps, he sings, he dances,
• 1:07:34
  and he's smart, but he hides the fact that he's
• 1:07:37
  smart. because it's not cool. And a lot of African
• 1:07:40
  -American boys, from the feedback that I've gotten,
• 1:07:42
  they feel like they have to pull in this persona.
• 1:07:45
  They gotta be a thug. They gotta be this. And
• 1:07:47
  then I remember having students, I was like looking
• 1:07:50
  at their work when they were turning in, like,
• 1:07:51
  you're actually quite intelligent. Why are you
• 1:07:54
  acting like, you know, and having that conversation?
• 1:07:57
  Well, you know, Ms. Rowe, we, you know, I come
• 1:07:59
  from this neighborhood. And if you don't, we
• 1:08:02
  get looked at like this. And so... Um, just being
• 1:08:07
  true to who you are is kind of what I was trying
• 1:08:09
  to get out of that episode. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:08:12
  I was looking at that episode and I was like,
• 1:08:13
  okay. Um, what was that day on set like? Cause
• 1:08:17
  I'm thinking about like you got, you got the
• 1:08:19
  kids and then you got the Eden puppet and then
• 1:08:22
  you got the music and then you got the dance
• 1:08:23
  choreography that they do. That's all that was
• 1:08:26
  rolling around in my head was just like, Oh my
• 1:08:27
  God, this must've been like a really busy, maybe
• 1:08:29
  hectic, maybe stressful day on set. Um, and are
• 1:08:33
  you like. I think someone else is the director
• 1:08:37
  of credit, but what's that like in terms of just
• 1:08:40
  making sure that kids, the puppeteer, like, everybody's
• 1:08:45
  on the same page, because I know that, you know,
• 1:08:47
  especially when you're dealing with younger people,
• 1:08:48
  it could be, you know, kind of frantic. Yeah.
• 1:08:50
  So we definitely had pre -production meetings,
• 1:08:53
  Tyler and I, and I kind of worked out this thing
• 1:08:56
  with Tyler, like, hey, I want to learn, because
• 1:08:58
  puppetry is considered special effects, no matter
• 1:09:00
  what you're doing, because the foreground and
• 1:09:03
  however it has to be made, whatever the angle
• 1:09:05
  is. And so I'm coming into something because
• 1:09:07
  I'm a theater girl. I didn't even know what filming
• 1:09:10
  would be like. I've had some experiences. but
• 1:09:12
  I told Tyler right off the bat, hey, I'm new
• 1:09:15
  to this. I would love all the tips and pointers.
• 1:09:18
  I would love to jump in at some point to direct,
• 1:09:20
  because I have directed before. But here's the
• 1:09:23
  vision. We got really clear on the vision and
• 1:09:24
  what I wanted it to look like. And he kind of
• 1:09:27
  carried it once we got in. Jamika is had an assist.
• 1:09:31
  So that means that the puppet is assisted and
• 1:09:33
  moved with two people, not just one. OK, and
• 1:09:36
  she moves extremely fast whenever she sees what's
• 1:09:38
  going on. It is very collaborative. And sometimes
• 1:09:42
  she's like, can I say this instead? Hey, can
• 1:09:44
  I move in this way? And I'm like, Yes, because
• 1:09:47
  I understand that. So Wonderful World was in
• 1:09:50
  workshops. You're working from a place where
• 1:09:52
  there's nothing for real in the script and the
• 1:09:54
  actors are making most of the things. So I'm
• 1:09:56
  very good at making space in room for other people
• 1:10:00
  to create. We rehearsed the children two weeks
• 1:10:03
  prior to filming in a dance room so that once
• 1:10:08
  they got on set, they knew exactly what they
• 1:10:11
  were doing. All these children are are in performing
• 1:10:14
  arts schools as well, so they're super professional
• 1:10:17
  and very easy to deal with. They're hilarious,
• 1:10:21
  though, because they're still kids. And yeah,
• 1:10:25
  we had a schedule and it was like, let's do this
• 1:10:28
  first. We're gonna work with the children, knock
• 1:10:29
  them out. Okay, Auntie Kay, now we're gonna get
• 1:10:31
  your lines separately. I'm not actually talking
• 1:10:33
  to anybody. No kids are actually in the room.
• 1:10:36
  Okay, we have the sound guy playing playback
• 1:10:38
  so that we can do the choreo over and over again.
• 1:10:41
  We got the choreographer coming in. And so it
• 1:10:43
  was a big day. It was two days that we did that.
• 1:10:46
  Took us two days to film that one. And the anxiety
• 1:10:49
  was there the first day. But once I saw everybody
• 1:10:53
  come. and coming in and doing their part, I could
• 1:10:55
  relax into what I needed to do and just trust
• 1:10:58
  the process. One quick second. Do you mind? Yeah,
• 1:11:01
  sure. I'll be right back. I, you know, drank
• 1:11:06
  coffee, so I had to go pee. Oh, yeah. And I want
• 1:11:08
  a cup so bad. I'm two weeks off of it because
• 1:11:12
  it was... It's like crack for me at this point,
• 1:11:17
  my coffee. Now, why is it? Because here's my
• 1:11:20
  thing with coffee, like... I have to make sure
• 1:11:23
  that I am not in an anxious stress state when
• 1:11:26
  I drink it because Uh, you know, being on, being,
• 1:11:30
  being on antidepressants for my anxiety and depression
• 1:11:33
  and all that stuff. Like I gotta be in a calm
• 1:11:35
  state for coffee. Cause like, you know, you get
• 1:11:37
  anxiety and stress already, like in an uncoffee
• 1:11:39
  state, and then you add coffee to it and then
• 1:11:41
  you're just a jittery mess. Um, so I, so I try
• 1:11:45
  to be in as calm a state as possible while drinking
• 1:11:47
  it. And my sleep schedule is terrible. So it's
• 1:11:50
  kind of a necessity, but talk to me about your
• 1:11:53
  coffee journey. Why did you have to give it up?
• 1:11:55
  Okay. So my mom. Um, in the pandemic, cause we
• 1:11:59
  were bored. I went home for pandemic and, um,
• 1:12:02
  we had a blast though. And she was making these
• 1:12:04
  coffees and I try it, try it. And I was like,
• 1:12:07
  no, I don't really like coffee. And my lips hit
• 1:12:09
  the cup and it was a wrap. You were changed.
• 1:12:14
  You were taken to another universe and you never
• 1:12:16
  went back. why haven't I been doing this, right?
• 1:12:20
  So I have eczema really bad. I've always struggled
• 1:12:23
  with it since I was a kid. And I realized that
• 1:12:26
  it's linked to dairy and sugar. And I like my
• 1:12:28
  coffee extremely sweet because I'm more of a
• 1:12:31
  cafe con leche girl. And as soon as I stopped
• 1:12:34
  the coffee, I realized that I stopped itching.
• 1:12:36
  Like it's just something health -wise, it's not
• 1:12:38
  good for me. I realized it was staining my teeth
• 1:12:40
  when I went to the dentist to go get a cleaning.
• 1:12:43
  I realized that my sleep schedule was all over
• 1:12:45
  the place, like you're saying. And then I couldn't
• 1:12:48
  function without it. I would feel very sluggish.
• 1:12:51
  And then when I would take a few days off, I
• 1:12:53
  would get mean. I was like, okay, this is a problem
• 1:12:56
  and I'm gonna... So it was a... I would say it
• 1:13:00
  was a health thing for me initially, but it also
• 1:13:03
  has some other benefits as well. Okay. Well,
• 1:13:06
  a health thing, that's definitely a reasonable
• 1:13:07
  reason to drop coffee. So I'm glad you're better.
• 1:13:12
  And truthfully, everybody should not be on coffee
• 1:13:14
  because it's like kind of a drug. My, my wife
• 1:13:19
  does not have any caffeine routine whatsoever
• 1:13:22
  for her. It's only on a as needed basis. And
• 1:13:26
  that's usually pretty rare. Like, like it would
• 1:13:28
  have to be like, if she didn't get some sleep
• 1:13:30
  the other night, or if she's going to some kind
• 1:13:32
  of work event and she's feeling tired, if she
• 1:13:34
  needs like a Celsius to as sort of a pick me
• 1:13:36
  up, then that's what she'll do. But, um, in the
• 1:13:39
  six years that we've known each other, I just
• 1:13:41
  have been. so shocked that with, you know, her
• 1:13:45
  busy job as a veterinary technician, and then
• 1:13:47
  being a president, rescue, just, just that big
• 1:13:50
  load that she has on her shoulders. Wow. She
• 1:13:52
  can do it without a daily source of caffeine.
• 1:13:56
  It's just like, it's, it's insane. Like, I don't
• 1:13:58
  know how she does it. But yeah, no, that dairy
• 1:14:01
  sugar thing. I get what you mean about that.
• 1:14:04
  I, so I, I drink, I've, I've, I drink my coffee
• 1:14:07
  black now. I've, I've drinking it black for quite
• 1:14:09
  some time. Yeah. Cause what was happening with
• 1:14:11
  the dairy? sugar of it all, not like one, it
• 1:14:14
  was getting too milky. Like I just wasn't tasting
• 1:14:17
  the, the, the bitterness that I want to taste
• 1:14:19
  out of caffeine. And also, um, I was just going
• 1:14:23
  to the bathroom a lot more than I already was.
• 1:14:25
  Cause there's just something in that cream and
• 1:14:27
  sugar. We can't digest it. We don't, it's not,
• 1:14:31
  it's not, it's not digestible to me. Like we're
• 1:14:33
  not supposed to be digesting lactose. I feel
• 1:14:36
  like whatever they're doing to it now. today.
• 1:14:39
  I think black people are born lactose intolerant.
• 1:14:41
  I think that's absolutely. No, for real. Like
• 1:14:45
  you hit it on the head. Yeah. I don't know why,
• 1:14:48
  but like I. And look, that doesn't stop me. I'm
• 1:14:51
  still having my, you know, ice cream, ice cream,
• 1:14:54
  you know, but I have almond milk. Like, you know,
• 1:14:56
  I, I, I do that with my oatmeal and everything
• 1:14:59
  like that. But, um, yeah, my relationship with
• 1:15:01
  dairy is that like, I'll have it and accept the
• 1:15:05
  consequences later, which is, you know, some
• 1:15:07
  blow, you know, but it, but it's not terrible.
• 1:15:10
  It's not terrible. I I'm not seriously lactose
• 1:15:12
  intolerant where I got to like, you know, take
• 1:15:14
  the lactate tablets like I used to. Like it's,
• 1:15:17
  it's one of those things where it's like, okay.
• 1:15:19
  occasionally dip into a dairy here and there
• 1:15:21
  and I'll be okay. I'll survive, you know? Yeah.
• 1:15:23
  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, we gotta get to these
• 1:15:27
  three delicious questions. Um, so I want to know
• 1:15:29
  Khadijah, first up, what is a delicious meal
• 1:15:31
  that you've had lately? You know, I made some
• 1:15:34
  black eyed peas the other day and it was really
• 1:15:37
  good. said some black eyed peas. I did it with
• 1:15:41
  like a little bit of tomato sauce, a little bit.
• 1:15:43
  It was weird. I did it off of Pinterest and it
• 1:15:45
  was really good. It was black eyed peas, rice,
• 1:15:47
  and plantains. So explain black eyed peas to
• 1:15:49
  me because I sometimes forget that that's an
• 1:15:52
  actual food and not just a well -known musical
• 1:15:54
  group. Yeah, so, you know, you got southern black
• 1:15:59
  eyed peas. My mom make it with a little turkey
• 1:16:01
  neck and a little, but for me, I did it differently
• 1:16:03
  because my boyfriend is vegan and we're trying
• 1:16:06
  to eat healthy. So I wanted to try a new thing.
• 1:16:09
  I did a bunch of herbs and I did like this different
• 1:16:11
  base. I put it in a blender and I kind of just
• 1:16:14
  put it in the pressure cooker and just made it
• 1:16:16
  more like a soup. And it was really good. It
• 1:16:19
  was, it was yummy. Um, love me some black eyed
• 1:16:22
  peas. They're not olives, because I'm thinking
• 1:16:23
  of olives when I think of black eyed peas. No.
• 1:16:25
  Let me Google a picture of black eyed peas right
• 1:16:27
  now, because I... They have their peas as white
• 1:16:29
  with the little eye on it. It looks like a black
• 1:16:32
  eye. That's why they call it black eyed peas.
• 1:16:33
  Got you. I don't know how they look. All right,
• 1:16:35
  wonderful. So you didn't eat black eyed peas
• 1:16:38
  growing up, John? Um... Me? Look, look, look,
• 1:16:42
  look, look, look. I mean, my family is Haitian,
• 1:16:45
  so I'm sure, you know, all the Goya cans of Black
• 1:16:48
  Eyed Peas were just in the pantry somewhere and
• 1:16:51
  I just didn't pick up on it. Your background
• 1:16:54
  is Haitian. My family is Bahamian. Okay. Yeah.
• 1:16:57
  And B &M and my sister's husband is Haitian.
• 1:16:59
  So that's what I mean. We're going to eat booze
• 1:17:01
  that got some Caribbean too. It's going to be
• 1:17:04
  healthy, but it's going to be Caribbean. Yes.
• 1:17:06
  Yes. That's the best way to do it. I'm looking
• 1:17:09
  at pictures of black eyed peas and I, maybe I
• 1:17:12
  have E in it when I was a child, but I certainly
• 1:17:15
  haven't E in it recently. What kind of like describe
• 1:17:17
  the taste and texture? Like what, what is it
• 1:17:19
  like? Oh, man, it's a little, I like it a little
• 1:17:23
  firm and chewy. It depends on how you cook it,
• 1:17:26
  how long you cook it. And it has a, wow, you're
• 1:17:30
  asking some really good detailed questions. I
• 1:17:31
  know, I'm getting so deep, I'm sorry. That I
• 1:17:33
  haven't even thought about. Because of the herbs,
• 1:17:36
  I think it tasted like the, you know, I put a
• 1:17:39
  little bit of dill in it, a little bit of...
• 1:17:43
  It was, yeah. I mean, I don't really know how
• 1:17:46
  to answer your question, but it's just amazing.
• 1:17:48
  All right. All right. It's, it's one of those
• 1:17:49
  things where you just have to taste it to believe
• 1:17:51
  it. Yeah. And you know what? Now, cause that's
• 1:17:53
  my, that feels like a mindfulness exercise. I
• 1:17:56
  took a mindfulness class before and we would
• 1:17:58
  have to, you know, what does it taste like? What
• 1:18:00
  is, what does it really feel? I'm like, I don't
• 1:18:02
  know. So I'm gonna think about that. And we'll
• 1:18:06
  come back on another episode and discuss. What
• 1:18:09
  is your delicious pop culture obsession this
• 1:18:10
  moment? Something that you're watching or listening
• 1:18:12
  to that you really love that you want to share?
• 1:18:16
  That's the thing. I think sometimes while I'm
• 1:18:18
  creating, I kind of unplug. You are like this
• 1:18:21
  singer that I talked to yesterday. She said pretty
• 1:18:24
  much a similar thing. Like, I had to force the
• 1:18:28
  fact that she did have a movie night some time
• 1:18:30
  ago with her son and they watched the first Toy
• 1:18:33
  Story movie. So that's all I got out of her.
• 1:18:35
  But like, can you recall anything that you watched
• 1:18:38
  or listened to? It doesn't have to be like yesterday,
• 1:18:41
  but like maybe like the last thing that you watched
• 1:18:43
  or listened to that you were like, oh my God,
• 1:18:44
  this was so great. I love this. Yeah, I watched
• 1:18:47
  a movie the other day called Echo Valley. I can't
• 1:18:50
  remember who are the actors. They're in Apple
• 1:18:52
  TV. They're two phenomenal actresses. Let me
• 1:18:56
  look that up. Tell me what it's about. Echo Valley.
• 1:18:59
  It was about this mother and this daughter. The
• 1:19:01
  daughter was a heroin addict. And basically what
• 1:19:05
  it highlighted to me was the love of a mother
• 1:19:07
  and her daughter, like the relationship with
• 1:19:09
  that, which I kind of have with my mom. and how
• 1:19:13
  mothers would do anything for their kids. It
• 1:19:17
  was really good. It was nicely written. I feel
• 1:19:19
  that a lot of the movies and the stories that's
• 1:19:22
  being told today, I think we kind of get stuck
• 1:19:24
  in this new way of telling stories today because
• 1:19:26
  it's the trend, like that get out feel, you know
• 1:19:29
  what I mean? Sometimes I don't want to see that.
• 1:19:33
  Sometimes I just want to see a regular ass story.
• 1:19:35
  And that Echo Valley gave it to me. Echo Valley
• 1:19:38
  gave me that feel from the 90s when we were watching
• 1:19:41
  a movie that had an arc. and a storyline that
• 1:19:44
  build and all the characters had some depth to
• 1:19:47
  it. And so I was I was feeling that that was
• 1:19:50
  awesome. It was a good show. Yeah. Sometimes
• 1:19:52
  I feel like I'm forcing my wife to watch the
• 1:19:54
  kinds of movies and TV shows that I like, which
• 1:19:58
  is not so much what she may like, where, you
• 1:20:01
  know, she's you know, she she she could be into
• 1:20:03
  like high stimuli stuff, your medical dramas,
• 1:20:05
  your your your procedurals and your actions and
• 1:20:09
  your horrors. And that's great. I mean, I love
• 1:20:11
  I love doses of that. as well, but. What do you
• 1:20:13
  like? For me, so I like a little bit of all of
• 1:20:17
  that. I think that's great. But like a soft spot
• 1:20:20
  for me is sort of an indie feeling relationship
• 1:20:25
  dynamic kind of drama or comedy. Like give me
• 1:20:29
  something where like I don't I wouldn't say necessarily
• 1:20:33
  a rom -com. OK. But like a romance drama, something
• 1:20:39
  like that. You know what? You know what, then,
• 1:20:41
  John? You have to watch it. You probably already
• 1:20:43
  saw it. And I should have said this first. This
• 1:20:45
  TV show off of Prime Call every year after. Ooh,
• 1:20:48
  what's that one about? It's a relationship. It
• 1:20:53
  doesn't feel rom -com, but it's romantic. And
• 1:20:57
  it's so damn good. It just was good. It's about
• 1:21:00
  this lake. You know, every summer these kids
• 1:21:03
  come back to this... not a camp, but like a area
• 1:21:07
  that you come to like a lake and they fall in
• 1:21:10
  love with each other from kids. And every year
• 1:21:12
  they come back, but they don't, they don't get
• 1:21:14
  together, but there's always this tension created,
• 1:21:17
  but you can tell they genuinely love each other.
• 1:21:20
  And it just, it's a feel good. It's a feel good.
• 1:21:22
  One of those feel good. Oh, I love that. And
• 1:21:26
  I'd say the most recent example of sort of that
• 1:21:29
  like deep relationship dynamic movie that I like.
• 1:21:32
  Have you watched Hamnet? No. So, uh, it was,
• 1:21:35
  it was nominated for, I think a bunch of Oscars.
• 1:21:37
  Uh, it was with Paul Miscael and I forgot who
• 1:21:39
  the actress was, but basically it tells the story
• 1:21:42
  of, um, William Shakespeare and his partner.
• 1:21:47
  They have children and one of them dies from,
• 1:21:50
  uh, some sort of disease and how, uh, pretty
• 1:21:55
  much Hamlet, uh, was inspired by Hamnet. William
• 1:22:02
  Shakespeare's son's death at such a young age.
• 1:22:07
  Because if you remember from Hamlet, I think
• 1:22:09
  it was like the father dies. Yes. And William,
• 1:22:14
  you see toward the end of the movie, William
• 1:22:16
  Shakespeare, he plays Hamlet, I think, which
• 1:22:19
  I think is the name of the father character.
• 1:22:20
  I haven't seen Hamlet, but the father dies on
• 1:22:23
  stage instead of the son. And that's basically
• 1:22:26
  William trying to say that he wanted to take
• 1:22:28
  the place of his son in terms of dying. You know,
• 1:22:32
  I've heard that the Lion King is pretty much
• 1:22:34
  Hamlet, so that's... That's my reference point,
• 1:22:38
  but no, no, no. Hamnet, H -A -M -N -E -T was
• 1:22:42
  great because it was what I wanted. It's like,
• 1:22:45
  okay, you see the blossoming love between William
• 1:22:48
  Shakespeare and his partner. And then you see
• 1:22:50
  it go like over a cliff because all of a sudden,
• 1:22:54
  like he has to go to London all the time for
• 1:22:56
  his plays that he's producing that creates less
• 1:22:59
  time with the wife and children. And then. The
• 1:23:02
  son gets sick and dies. William's not there for
• 1:23:06
  that. He comes after the fact and the tension
• 1:23:09
  between him and his wife and the mother of the
• 1:23:11
  children based on that. So that stuff is what
• 1:23:15
  I love. Anything from a... wonderful, pure love
• 1:23:20
  story between two people and you get to see the
• 1:23:24
  conversations around that. You get to see the
• 1:23:25
  conflict around that. Or yes, it could be a tragic
• 1:23:28
  story like this. I made my wife watch it with
• 1:23:31
  me and she was like, what? Because it was very
• 1:23:33
  sad. It's very sad. I mean, we're trying to have
• 1:23:34
  kids and it's like, oh my God, this is like really
• 1:23:36
  sad to see. But I love that kind of stuff. I
• 1:23:40
  love that kind of stuff. And Yes, like in terms
• 1:23:44
  of a big stimuli thing, like a horror movie,
• 1:23:47
  like we watched Obsession the other day, that
• 1:23:49
  was great in the theaters, we saw that, we loved
• 1:23:51
  it. I haven't seen it. Okay, Obsession? Obsession,
• 1:23:53
  yes, yes, yes. It just came out? I haven't seen
• 1:23:55
  it, okay. Yeah, yeah, Obsession and Back Rooms,
• 1:23:58
  those are like the big two horror movies that
• 1:24:00
  are like really being talked about right now
• 1:24:02
  because they're both directed by Gen Z YouTube
• 1:24:04
  content creators. Okay. And now the whole story
• 1:24:07
  is like, oh, Hollywood can be saved by Gen Z.
• 1:24:12
  should have been a conversation they should have
• 1:24:13
  had a while ago, because, you know, these content
• 1:24:16
  creators that are of that generation, they do
• 1:24:18
  have a very passionate following and they will
• 1:24:20
  pay to see your movie in the theaters. Okay,
• 1:24:24
  well, I have to check it out. I'm a pretty scary
• 1:24:26
  girl, though. Like, listen. That's okay. Yeah.
• 1:24:29
  Not for everybody. But I was looking up Echo
• 1:24:31
  Valley on Apple TV. So, uh, Julianne Moore plays
• 1:24:34
  the mother. Yes. Amazing. Have you seen that
• 1:24:37
  movie with the, with Natalie Portman? I think
• 1:24:39
  it was like May, December, uh, with Julianne
• 1:24:41
  Moore and Natalie Portman. Um, and I think it
• 1:24:44
  was Natalie Portman. She was like, uh, sort of
• 1:24:48
  like following Julianne Moore. She's like, I
• 1:24:50
  guess this like well -known celebrity actress
• 1:24:52
  character. I have, I think I have. Who has a
• 1:24:55
  relationship with a man that is a lot younger
• 1:24:59
  than her. And I think the whole thing was like,
• 1:25:02
  maybe that's her son or stepson or whatever.
• 1:25:03
  Hold on. Let me, let me, let me, let me. Yeah.
• 1:25:05
  What was the name of that one? I feel like I
• 1:25:07
  did. The name of the movie is may December. It
• 1:25:09
  came out on Netflix in 2023. Um, and it is about.
• 1:25:15
  Natalie Portman is an actress who travels to
• 1:25:17
  meet and study the life of Gracie Julianne Moore,
• 1:25:20
  a sex offender she is set to play in a film.
• 1:25:22
  Gracie has been in a 24 year relationship with
• 1:25:24
  her husband Joe, which began when he was 13 years
• 1:25:27
  old and she was 36. Oh, shit. It's an intense
• 1:25:32
  movie, but it's good because it's Julianne Moore
• 1:25:34
  and Natalie Portman. They act pretty well in
• 1:25:36
  that movie. Yeah. I get to see that. So it's
• 1:25:38
  called May, December. May, December. And Charles
• 1:25:41
  Melton, who me and my wife recently saw in the
• 1:25:45
  second season of the show Beef on Netflix. Are
• 1:25:48
  you familiar with Beef? Yeah, it's an anthology
• 1:25:50
  series. Basically, it's different characters
• 1:25:52
  every season. And the common thread is how...
• 1:25:55
  childish and how far and how immature people
• 1:25:57
  will go with beef, with conflict with each other.
• 1:26:00
  Uh -huh. Yeah, yeah. We'll definitely watch that.
• 1:26:02
  But yeah, yeah. So you watched Echo Valley with
• 1:26:04
  Julianne Moore and Sydney Sweeney. And she's
• 1:26:07
  amazing. Yeah, yeah. Sydney Sweeney is great.
• 1:26:09
  Yeah, yeah. So we saw her in Euphoria recently.
• 1:26:11
  Have you seen that show? I did not watch it purposely.
• 1:26:14
  Understandably. Yes, yes. But I heard it was
• 1:26:17
  amazing. I heard it was amazing. I saw her in
• 1:26:19
  that other housemaid movie. Sydney Sweeney? Housemaid.
• 1:26:23
  House, uh -huh, Housemaid, where she's playing,
• 1:26:26
  she's getting to know this guy. I don't even
• 1:26:28
  want to give it away. You have, you guys got
• 1:26:30
  to see it. It's very, it's a lot of twists and
• 1:26:32
  turns. It's not what you think. It was good.
• 1:26:35
  Housemaid. And when you watch it, please text
• 1:26:37
  me and let me know how you like it. Okay. Yeah.
• 1:26:41
  So the only, I think the only movie that me and
• 1:26:44
  my wife saw Sydney Sweeney in was that sort of
• 1:26:47
  romantic comedy that she did with Glenn Powell.
• 1:26:49
  We weren't crazy about that. Sydney in Euphoria,
• 1:26:53
  I mean, I don't know. I mean, I'm still trying
• 1:26:56
  to figure out how I feel about Sydney Sweeney
• 1:26:57
  as an actress. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because like,
• 1:27:02
  I feel like she is propped up to be like this
• 1:27:06
  prestige actress because she is in prestige material
• 1:27:09
  like Euphoria and she was in the first season
• 1:27:13
  of The White Lotus. So like she's in these prestige
• 1:27:16
  things, but like, you know, she's clearly...
• 1:27:21
  made out to be this sex symbol. So it's like
• 1:27:23
  you got this sex symbol thing and then she's
• 1:27:25
  in this prestige stuff. Um, and the White Lotus,
• 1:27:28
  I think she was fun in the White Lotus, but like,
• 1:27:31
  I don't know if I see her in the way that maybe
• 1:27:35
  some of her like enthusiastic fans see her. And
• 1:27:37
  I'm just kind of trying to reckon with that,
• 1:27:38
  but you're saying that she's really good in Equivalent.
• 1:27:40
  I liked her. I liked her, but give her a chance
• 1:27:43
  in that one and watch Housemaid and then see,
• 1:27:45
  see how you feel. Do you like Zendaya then? You
• 1:27:48
  think Zendaya's great? Zendaya? Zendaya, so sorry.
• 1:27:52
  Okay, some people pronounce it Zendaya, some
• 1:27:54
  people pronounce it Zendaya, like... I thought
• 1:27:57
  it was Zendaya, but maybe it's Zendaya, you're
• 1:27:59
  right, I don't know. So Zendaya and Euphoria
• 1:28:01
  specifically, I loved her portrayal of Rue, I
• 1:28:04
  think it's... I don't know, even though Rue fucks
• 1:28:07
  up a lot in that show, Zendaya... portrays her
• 1:28:10
  in a way where you think she's like the coolest,
• 1:28:13
  baddest bitch on the planet. You still want to
• 1:28:15
  root for her. Um, as far as Zendaya and other
• 1:28:18
  stuff, I mean, I know I've seen her in the Spider
• 1:28:19
  -Man movies with Tom Holland. I saw her a long
• 1:28:22
  time ago, uh, unknowingly until now I realized
• 1:28:24
  that I saw her in that greatest showman movie
• 1:28:26
  with Hugh Jackman, where he played like sort
• 1:28:28
  of the circus showman character. Um, I don't
• 1:28:31
  know. I mean, there, there is a debate on like
• 1:28:34
  Zendaya's acting ability. I think that. sort
• 1:28:38
  of like Sidney Sweeney, like you think of her
• 1:28:40
  and you think like, oh, okay, yeah, she's thought
• 1:28:42
  of as this sex symbol, this fashion icon, she
• 1:28:44
  kills on the red carpet, and she keeps getting
• 1:28:48
  cast in all these like big prestige things. What
• 1:28:51
  do you think about Zendaya? I've not seen, so
• 1:28:54
  I've not really seen her a lot, but that's why
• 1:28:56
  I was saying, I just wanted to know what you
• 1:28:58
  thought of her versus... Sidney Sweeney? Yes,
• 1:29:03
  because I... Yeah, I don't. I enjoy you saying
• 1:29:06
  Zendaya. better as an actress than Sydney. I
• 1:29:10
  think that her journey has been cool to be from
• 1:29:13
  Disney, right? To go into these very serious
• 1:29:16
  roles. They don't usually make that switch over
• 1:29:18
  that fast. So I think it has, she has to have
• 1:29:20
  some chops to be able to do that. I mean, she
• 1:29:23
  knows. So definitely the Disney child star era
• 1:29:26
  helped her become the professional that she is.
• 1:29:31
  Not a lot of people go from child star to seamlessly
• 1:29:33
  transitioning into the adult roles that she's
• 1:29:37
  gotten, being in Euphoria, being in the drama
• 1:29:40
  with Robert Pattinson, being in that Odyssey
• 1:29:42
  movie directed by Christopher Nolan, being in
• 1:29:44
  the Spider -Man movies with her now husband,
• 1:29:46
  Tom Holland. She's voicing some character in,
• 1:29:50
  I think, the latest Shrek movie. Zendaya's busy.
• 1:29:53
  She's busy. She's in a lot of stuff. And that's
• 1:29:57
  all from a start of being a child actress. It's
• 1:30:00
  really amazing to see the progress there. Yeah.
• 1:30:02
  You know who else made that switch? I don't know,
• 1:30:05
  Coco Jones, because I think Coco Jones was Nickelodeon
• 1:30:08
  and now she's like a, she did the Bel Air remake.
• 1:30:13
  Oh yeah, yeah, my wife loved that. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:30:15
  the Bel Air drama. Yeah, and now she's this dope,
• 1:30:17
  she's a dope singer. A very dope, she has a dope
• 1:30:21
  album. Right. Yeah, I'm looking her up right
• 1:30:25
  now. Yeah, she started off on Disney, So Random,
• 1:30:29
  Good Luck Charlie, she did those Disney Channel
• 1:30:31
  shows. And yeah, you're saying she's a singer
• 1:30:34
  now. Yep. Yep. Her debut album, Why Not More
• 1:30:37
  from last year entered the Billboard 200 and
• 1:30:39
  yep. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. She did that switch over
• 1:30:42
  too. And that's what I'm saying. But when Raven
• 1:30:44
  was doing her thing, she saw and she had a hard
• 1:30:46
  time to get into that switch over. Oh, yeah,
• 1:30:48
  for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Because we think, well,
• 1:30:51
  maybe yes and no, because Raven had an interesting
• 1:30:54
  arc in that. Like, obviously, we saw her, like,
• 1:30:57
  from the start on the Cosby show, and then she
• 1:30:59
  was in Hanging with Mr. Cooper. She was in the
• 1:31:01
  Xenon movie. So, yeah, we saw her in those child
• 1:31:03
  and teen years. She never had that big swish
• 1:31:06
  into a grown woman. And I'm still an artist as
• 1:31:09
  a grown woman. Right. That's so Raven. And then
• 1:31:11
  she did a Raven's home thing, but it still was
• 1:31:15
  in the context of a child, a children's show.
• 1:31:17
  I don't feel like we've seen her be. We saw her
• 1:31:19
  in Dr. Dolittle. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But
• 1:31:22
  I think she's still in her like, wasn't she like
• 1:31:23
  still a teenager, kind of young adult in those
• 1:31:25
  years with Eddie Murphy in that movie? Yeah.
• 1:31:27
  Yeah, but these girls are like coming from these
• 1:31:32
  child, child, these child, they're becoming child,
• 1:31:36
  they're childhood actors and they're, and they're
• 1:31:38
  moving into adult careers. That's not. I feel
• 1:31:41
  like that hasn't been an easy switch for most
• 1:31:43
  of them. Like look at Orlando Brown, he's not
• 1:31:46
  even doing well. Like a lot of them don't even
• 1:31:48
  really. You know what I mean? Yeah, Orlando Brown,
• 1:31:52
  that's interesting, because he had pretty much
• 1:31:54
  the same trajectory as Raven, where, you know,
• 1:31:56
  you see him as a child actor. He's 3J on Family
• 1:31:59
  Matters, and then, you know, he's on That's So
• 1:32:01
  Raven when he's like in his, I don't know, sort
• 1:32:03
  of his teens, sort of younger adult years. And
• 1:32:06
  then it looks like he had some substance use
• 1:32:07
  issues that got in the way. I think he's doing
• 1:32:10
  better now, but the substance use of it all,
• 1:32:15
  like that definitely took a... took a damper
• 1:32:17
  on his career. But to go back to Raven, it's
• 1:32:21
  interesting because as she was growing up, she's
• 1:32:24
  on That's So Raven. So it's like, all right,
• 1:32:26
  you're finding success as a growner woman than
• 1:32:29
  when you were in The Cosby Show. But at the same
• 1:32:31
  time, it's Disney Channel. It's still within
• 1:32:33
  the context of children's entertainment. And
• 1:32:36
  then in terms of adult things, I know Raven,
• 1:32:39
  she was one of the co -hosts of The View for
• 1:32:40
  a really brief spurt. She has a podcast that
• 1:32:44
  she does with her partner who is was a woman.
• 1:32:49
  Um, and so yeah, and, and, and Raven did come
• 1:32:53
  back to Disney after leaving the view with Raven's
• 1:32:55
  home, that sequel that you mentioned. So, so
• 1:32:57
  it's interesting. So Raven seems to be doing
• 1:32:59
  this dance of like, all right, we get to see
• 1:33:01
  the adult side of her with the, with the podcasts
• 1:33:03
  and with being on the view and such and such.
• 1:33:05
  But then she also recognizes that. She has built
• 1:33:09
  quite a brand being a kid's entertainer. So hence
• 1:33:12
  why she did, you know, why she returned back
• 1:33:14
  to Disney the way she did. So, yeah, I don't
• 1:33:17
  know. I feel like she's having an interesting
• 1:33:19
  balance in her career right now. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:33:23
  I will want the career of what Zendaya and Coco
• 1:33:26
  Jones are doing where you switch over. I think
• 1:33:29
  Brandi did it well. But I feel like she kind
• 1:33:32
  of got stuck in being the perfect girl. Her persona
• 1:33:35
  had to stay like she was the good girl. You know
• 1:33:38
  what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I know sometimes
• 1:33:41
  I just think they get stuck in it. That's, that's
• 1:33:43
  yeah. Right. Yeah. When Brady was younger in
• 1:33:45
  the nineties, I think she balanced the music
• 1:33:46
  career with Moesha and then, um, Yeah, it's interesting
• 1:33:50
  that you say that good girl image because now
• 1:33:52
  I'm thinking about when Brandi and Monica did
• 1:33:54
  that song, The Boy Is Mine. So was the whole
• 1:33:56
  narrative that Brandi was the good girl and Monica
• 1:33:58
  was like sort of the bad rebellious one? Yeah.
• 1:34:00
  Okay. Yeah. What's a delicious thing that's happened
• 1:34:04
  in your life lately? My summer has been really
• 1:34:07
  great. I feel like my summer has been really
• 1:34:09
  great and having the time and the freedom to
• 1:34:11
  just travel and do things with my loved ones.
• 1:34:15
  And I'm also in pre -production for Eden's Garden
• 1:34:19
  Live. And I'm very excited about that. I'm nervous,
• 1:34:25
  I'm happy, I'm all the things. I would say that's
• 1:34:27
  been very delicious. Yeah, I'm so glad that you're
• 1:34:31
  doing the Eden's Garden Live thing because it
• 1:34:34
  immediately transported me back to my obsession
• 1:34:38
  with... Barney the dinosaur back in the 90s.
• 1:34:42
  Not only did he have like, you know, his show
• 1:34:45
  with the kids and they film on this set in like
• 1:34:47
  Dallas, Texas or whatever. But I remember having
• 1:34:51
  VHS tapes of like Barney's live shows. Like he
• 1:34:53
  used to do live theater shows. I'm surprised.
• 1:34:57
  I'm surprised I never actually got to go to one
• 1:34:59
  of them because like I literally had the Barney
• 1:35:01
  sheets. I had the Barney stuffed animal like.
• 1:35:04
  You know what I mean? Like, Barney came out in
• 1:35:06
  92, I was born in 91, so I was like the perfect
• 1:35:09
  age for Barney obsession when it came out. Yeah,
• 1:35:11
  I remember. I loved Barney, but I didn't know
• 1:35:13
  Barney had a live. I didn't know that. I didn't
• 1:35:15
  know that at all. And the cool thing about this
• 1:35:18
  element is that because I'm trying to put it
• 1:35:20
  into educational programming, we're taking out
• 1:35:23
  the spiritual element and focusing on character
• 1:35:25
  development and the social, emotional. So it
• 1:35:28
  can feel like, you know, this is for everybody.
• 1:35:30
  So I'm excited. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I've
• 1:35:34
  seen, I can't remember what other shows of that
• 1:35:38
  sort of like, you know, young children's educational
• 1:35:42
  type have done live shows. But I've seen that
• 1:35:44
  happen before, where it's like, oh, it's like
• 1:35:46
  Yo Gabba Gabba live or whatever. And what's great
• 1:35:50
  is that, you know, it's something for the parents
• 1:35:51
  to take their kids out to. The kids are interacting
• 1:35:55
  and along with the proceedings. You know, their
• 1:35:58
  favorite characters are right up in their face.
• 1:36:00
  So there's just that... great dynamic there.
• 1:36:03
  So yeah, I think you're going to be successful
• 1:36:05
  with the Edith Darden Live thing. I can't wait
• 1:36:06
  to see that. Yeah. And I'm glad to be revisiting
• 1:36:09
  musicals. To me, this feels like my wheelhouse.
• 1:36:13
  So yeah. So yeah. That's delicious. This was
• 1:36:17
  wonderful, Khadijah. Can you just plug everything?
• 1:36:20
  Like, tell us where to find Eden's garden. Tell
• 1:36:22
  us where to find you on social media, your website.
• 1:36:24
  Just give us everything. Yes. You can find me
• 1:36:27
  on Instagram at underscore I am Khadijah Rowe.
• 1:36:31
  You can also find Eden's garden at... IG at Eden's
• 1:36:35
  Garden TV show, as well as the YouTube channel
• 1:36:37
  is called Eden's Garden TV show, TikTok Eden's
• 1:36:40
  Garden TV show. You could also find me on Facebook.
• 1:36:44
  And we don't have a website yet, but we're working
• 1:36:46
  on it. It's coming. And that's where you can
• 1:36:48
  find us. So Eden's Garden TV show across all
• 1:36:50
  the platforms and underscore, I am Khadija Roll
• 1:36:53
  on Instagram and Facebook is Khadija Roll. I
• 1:36:55
  love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. As you were saying
• 1:36:58
  that, I was making sure that I'm like already
• 1:37:00
  following you on Instagram and Facebook. I know
• 1:37:02
  we're friends on Facebook. Perfect. I know I
• 1:37:04
  follow you on Instagram. Yeah, so I'm at The
• 1:37:09
  Delicious Culture on Instagram. Eden's Garden
• 1:37:11
  TV show. I'm going to follow that. Actually,
• 1:37:13
  no, I'm already following that. Holy crap. I
• 1:37:16
  totally forget. Are you on TikTok? I am as Eden's
• 1:37:20
  Garden TV show, not as Khadijah. I don't spend
• 1:37:24
  a lot of time on there either. You know, John,
• 1:37:26
  I get stuck on those platforms, and so... Good
• 1:37:30
  for you, good for you. Good for you for being
• 1:37:32
  aware that that's not good for your mental health
• 1:37:35
  or your productivity. So, you said Eden Garden
• 1:37:37
  TV show? Yeah, Eden's garden TV show Eden's garden
• 1:37:41
  TV show Alright, let me look you up and the link
• 1:37:43
  is also in my bio of my social media pages If
• 1:37:47
  you want to go to the actual YouTube channel,
• 1:37:49
  that's why I would love for people to subscribe
• 1:37:51
  subscribe the most YouTube Yes, and I've already
• 1:37:54
  subscribed to you on YouTube. Yes. Yes. Okay,
• 1:37:57
  that is wonderful So yeah, we'll definitely connect
• 1:37:59
  on how Yes, please. Yes, please. I did subscribe
• 1:38:04
  to your Eden Gardens YouTube channel yesterday.
• 1:38:07
  I did follow you on TikTok just now. Instagram
• 1:38:10
  and Facebook, we're all set. I love it. Come
• 1:38:14
  on. Okay. Right. Wait, wait. If Facebook, it's
• 1:38:17
  just you or do you have an Eden Gardens Facebook?
• 1:38:19
  Just me. I'm actually working on the EG page
• 1:38:21
  now, but it's there. I think Eden's Gardens TV
• 1:38:24
  show is there. It's just nothing there yet. Gotcha.
• 1:38:27
  So you can go ahead and follow. Yeah. Wonderful.
• 1:38:29
  Wonderful. Wonderful. Great info. Yes. All right.
• 1:38:31
  And for our audience here, as always, follow
• 1:38:33
  The Delicious Culture with Jon Francois wherever
• 1:38:34
  you get your podcasts. Apple, Spotify, SiriusXM,
• 1:38:38
  Amazon, etc. If you like the podcast, please
• 1:38:40
  rate and review on Apple and Spotify. Email any
• 1:38:44
  questions, comments, concerns, feedback you may
• 1:38:45
  have to thedeliciousculture at gmail .com. Follow
• 1:38:49
  us on Instagram and TikTok at The Delicious Culture
• 1:38:51
  and subscribe to us on YouTube at The Delicious
• 1:38:54
  Culture, Jean -Francois J -O -N. F -R -N -C -O
• 1:38:58
  -I -S. Alrighty, Khadijah, we got to do this
• 1:39:01
  again. This was so much fun. Thank you so much,
• 1:39:03
  John. Yay. Until next time, everybody, let the
• 1:39:06
  righteousness ring.