Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Architect 'Long Island Serial Killer' Keeps LUX VEGAS CONDO 'for pleasure' & Remote SC Compound

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Architect 'Long Island Serial Killer' Keeps LUX VEGAS CONDO 'for pleasure' & Remote SC Compound · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease, the so called Long Island
0:17
Speaker 1: serial killer. The headlines just keep pouring from leaks and
0:24
Speaker 1: various news outlets. We are learning that his very first
0:28
Speaker 1: question to jailhouse awardens is quote, is it in the news.
0:34
Speaker 1: That's what he's worried about. Apparently so this as we
0:39
Speaker 1: also learned that two storage units, not one, but two.
0:44
Speaker 1: I wonder if his wife knew about those being searched meticulously.
0:49
Speaker 1: As it comes to light that a secret basement room
0:53
Speaker 1: was padlocked and heavily guarded by the so called Long
0:57
Speaker 1: Island serial killer, Rex Sheerman. I'm Nacy Grace. This is
1:03
Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at
1:05
Speaker 1: Foxination and Serious XM one eleven. First of all, take
1:09
Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at crimeonline dot com.
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Speaker 2: Interior designer Catherine Shepherd worked with suspected serial killer Rex
1:16
Speaker 2: Harriman over a period of five years. She had become
1:19
Speaker 2: friends with the architect and he even took her to
1:21
Speaker 2: a firing range in Brooklyn and taught her how to
1:23
Speaker 2: fire a nine millimeter handgun. In two thousand and five,
1:26
Speaker 2: Shepherd was called to help Harriman with renovation project at
1:29
Speaker 2: his home in Massive Eakleod Park. He was planning to
1:31
Speaker 2: renovate the kitchen, but he wanted precise measurements of the
1:35
Speaker 2: entire home. Harriman followed her from room to room as
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Speaker 2: she measured, and followed her downstairs. Shepherd told The Daily
1:42
Speaker 2: Mail that quote in the basement there was this one
1:45
Speaker 2: room that was locked, and he said, I couldn't go
1:48
Speaker 2: into that room.
1:49
Speaker 3: Couldn't go into that room.
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Speaker 1: Why you've asked people to come in redo your home,
1:57
Speaker 1: but you refuse adamantly not to allow them into one
2:02
Speaker 1: room just to get the specs. You know, how high
2:06
Speaker 1: the door is, how why the room is, how long
2:09
Speaker 1: the room is?
2:10
Speaker 3: Why?
2:11
Speaker 1: What did he keep in that room? He wanted no
2:13
Speaker 1: one to ever see again. Thanks for being with us
2:17
Speaker 1: here at Phlox Nation series six sem one eleven with
2:20
Speaker 1: me an all star panel to make sense of what
2:23
Speaker 1: we are learning literally by the minute, but for a
2:26
Speaker 1: straight out to Kristin Thorne, investigative reporter with WABC Channel
2:31
Speaker 1: seven Eyewitness News. She's also the star of Hulu's true
2:35
Speaker 1: crime show Missing Kristin, thank you for being with us.
2:39
Speaker 3: What's the latest?
2:40
Speaker 4: So you talked about the storage units, they'd say that's
2:42
Speaker 4: one of the biggest things that we saw yesterday. There
2:44
Speaker 4: was an additional unit that they responded to law enforcement.
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Speaker 4: These units are about too maybe a seven minute drive
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Speaker 4: from his house. There a massive Peopua park, so we're
2:53
Speaker 4: seeing them pull a lot of things still out of
2:56
Speaker 4: the house. We saw them take out a childlike doll
2:59
Speaker 4: that was in this glass case and that a lot
3:02
Speaker 4: of people have been focusing in on that. We certainly
3:04
Speaker 4: want to know more about that two hundred done.
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Speaker 1: Hold on, Kristin, I want to follow up on something
3:09
Speaker 1: you just said. Kristen Thorn is with me investigative reporter,
3:13
Speaker 1: very well respected, I might add, from WABC and star
3:16
Speaker 1: off missing on Hulu. Doctor Bethany Marshall, I can't believe
3:20
Speaker 1: you didn't just jump on Kristen's back and just ride
3:24
Speaker 1: her around the studio when you heard this about that
3:27
Speaker 1: life size doll. Guys, Doctor Bethany Marshall is with me
3:31
Speaker 1: psychoanalyst out of Beverly Hills at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com.
3:35
Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany, you heard what Kristin Thorne just said about
3:39
Speaker 1: that life size doll and it was encased in glass
3:43
Speaker 1: and a wooden type frame. Who cares? I care and
3:47
Speaker 1: I'll tell you why, because of all of his searches
3:50
Speaker 1: up to the time. He was arrested for child porn.
3:54
Speaker 1: And I don't mean just child porn. I mean child
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Speaker 1: porn where the little girls have like black eyes and
4:01
Speaker 1: they're crying.
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Speaker 3: It's awful.
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Speaker 1: And then he has this life sized doll of a
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Speaker 1: little girl, a replica doll Nancy.
4:09
Speaker 5: This is so creepy. It reminds me of PTK killer
4:12
Speaker 5: because remember she took so many pictures of himself drest
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Speaker 5: in lee text with high heeled can you stick.
4:20
Speaker 1: I'm not judging doctor Bathony, but I draw the line
4:22
Speaker 1: when he puts on the victims close or.
4:25
Speaker 5: What was the killer who actually up put makeup on
4:28
Speaker 5: the victim dead?
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Speaker 3: Bundy.
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Speaker 1: They would bathe them, do their hair and put on
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Speaker 1: their makeup after they're dead.
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Speaker 3: That's right.
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Speaker 5: But also the girl that worked at the coffee shop,
4:37
Speaker 5: remember the coffee keyp Oh.
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Speaker 1: You're referring to Israel Keys and Samantha Koenig. Yeah, she
4:42
Speaker 1: had her eyes stitched open, makeup and hair done.
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Speaker 6: That's right.
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Speaker 5: So what I see in all these crimes, and I
4:48
Speaker 5: think what happened with Irman Hermann is that sometimes the
4:53
Speaker 5: setishized sexual interest in the victim persists long after the
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Speaker 5: victim is dead. They continue to toy with the victim,
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Speaker 5: maybe masturbate on the victim a cost the victim, sexually
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Speaker 5: put makeup on the victim. But what happens when they
5:09
Speaker 5: don't have a victim, because you may not always have.
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Speaker 4: Access to one.
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Speaker 5: Maybe they're trying to find one, or they want one
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Speaker 5: to photograph, toy with, have sex with. The dolls seem
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Speaker 5: to be some kind of a substitute, I think for
5:25
Speaker 5: this fetishized interest in children. And remember we've been talking
5:28
Speaker 5: about the fact that his sexual proclivities seem to become
5:34
Speaker 5: more and more and more extreme. And if we think
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Speaker 5: about all of this as a part of the masturbatory ritual.
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Speaker 1: You know what, doctor Arbeth and eight, you're concerned about
5:43
Speaker 1: him masturbating. If that's my concern, I'd be worried about
5:47
Speaker 1: every man in the United States and worldwide.
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Speaker 3: Forget the US.
5:51
Speaker 1: I'm more worried about his trail of dead bodies. And
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Speaker 1: you know what else, Kristin Thorn with me from WABC.
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Speaker 1: I didn't even let you sor get through all the knees,
6:01
Speaker 1: but I certainly want to circle back, Kristen whenever you're
6:05
Speaker 1: ready to talk about his very extensive property portfolio across
6:13
Speaker 1: several states that is bordering on a one million dollar portfolio.
6:19
Speaker 1: And I know that he owns property in South Carolina
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Speaker 1: and Vegas. In fact, Jackie and I immediately said, oh,
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Speaker 1: South Carolina, that is a place you could hide a
6:31
Speaker 1: dead body and nobody would ever find it. But then
6:34
Speaker 1: Jackie pointed out Vegas because there's so many transients, there's tourists,
6:39
Speaker 1: there's hookers, there's models. People could go missing there and
6:46
Speaker 1: completely get lost in the sauce. And it's so close
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Speaker 1: to the desert. He's going to go look in the
6:50
Speaker 1: desert for a dead body nobody.
6:53
Speaker 4: So she's right, And Nancy, the aerial view of the
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Speaker 4: South Carolina property is massive. It's surrounded by wood. Las Vegas.
7:00
Speaker 4: I actually reached out to their police department yesterday on
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Speaker 4: the phone and said, are you researching whether he may
7:07
Speaker 4: be involved with anything there? He has a property there.
7:10
Speaker 4: And Nancy, I have to tell you about this deposition
7:12
Speaker 4: that I found from him from twenty seventeen.
7:15
Speaker 1: Okay, White a minute, hold on, there's a twenty seventeen deposition.
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Speaker 3: I'm so happy, go ahead. I don't even know what
7:23
Speaker 3: it is yet, Go ahead.
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Speaker 4: He has a series of four civil lawsuits that he
7:27
Speaker 4: filed in twenty fourteen. Two of those are related to
7:30
Speaker 4: an accident that people hit him, he says, with their cars,
7:34
Speaker 4: and two are involving people that he says hit them
7:38
Speaker 4: him as he was walking, as he was a pedestrian.
7:42
Speaker 4: In one of those depositions, which is just great from
7:46
Speaker 4: twenty seventeen, he starts to detail a lot about his
7:49
Speaker 4: family that he lived at that house and has lived
7:52
Speaker 4: there his whole life, that he lived there with his
7:55
Speaker 4: wife and his daughter and his step son. But another
7:58
Speaker 4: thing that's very interesting. At the end of the deposition,
8:01
Speaker 4: the deposer asked him when was the last time you traveled,
8:06
Speaker 4: and he talks about going to Las Vegas, and the
8:08
Speaker 4: diposer asks him what were you doing there? Were you
8:11
Speaker 4: going to see friends, college friends? And he says, well,
8:14
Speaker 4: I just know some people out there. And the deposer
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Speaker 4: continues because they're trying to ask him about his injuries
8:21
Speaker 4: that he suffered from this accident from getting hit by
8:24
Speaker 4: a car, and he says, well, what exactly were you
8:27
Speaker 4: doing out there? And he says the deposer says, was
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Speaker 4: it a pleasure trip, and he said you could put
8:35
Speaker 4: it that way. And when I read that, I almost
8:39
Speaker 4: immediately got off what I was reading this document and
8:42
Speaker 4: called the Las Vegas Police Department, because we know.
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Speaker 5: What happens in Las Vegas.
8:50
Speaker 4: We know why many people enjoy going.
8:54
Speaker 7: To Las Vegas, and.
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Speaker 4: I think that for someone like Rex Sherman, who we
9:01
Speaker 4: have now developed a sense of who he may be,
9:05
Speaker 4: it does raise questions about what may have happened in
9:09
Speaker 4: Las Vegas. He's had that property there since two thousand
9:12
Speaker 4: and five. He bought it with his wife. But he
9:15
Speaker 4: also says in the deposition Nancy that his wife did
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Speaker 4: not come with him to Law Vegas, and the deposer
9:21
Speaker 4: asked him that specifically.
9:35
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace, everybody on the panel, let's
9:40
Speaker 1: brainstorm about this. First to Chris mcdunna joining me. I
9:44
Speaker 1: found him on his YouTube channel, The Interview Room. But
9:48
Speaker 1: he's also the director of the Cold Case Foundation at
9:51
Speaker 1: Colcase Foundation dot org. Former homicide detective, over three hundred
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Speaker 1: homicides under his belt. Chris, when she first said pleasure
10:04
Speaker 1: trip to Vegas, my fingertips actually now my legs are
10:08
Speaker 1: doing it got tingles and I'm telling you when I
10:13
Speaker 1: know doctor Bethany, just dtor Bethany, just hold on one minute.
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Speaker 1: When you are obsessed and fixated on something, that is
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Speaker 1: what you take pleasure. And Bethany and I were talking yesterday.
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Speaker 1: My thing is unsolved homicides, missing people, and first and
10:33
Speaker 1: foremost my twins, John David Lucy. That gives me so
10:37
Speaker 1: much pleasure. When I feel that I've advanced a case
10:41
Speaker 1: that gives me pleasure, I'm happy that I can do
10:45
Speaker 1: that in any way help people take pleasure in that
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Speaker 1: with which they are obsessed.
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Speaker 3: Chris, You've dealt with so many killers.
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Speaker 1: Let's just compare it to Brianger, because that's an easy example.
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Speaker 1: He not only we believe commit and murder. He obsessed
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Speaker 1: on it. He emailed them, he stalked them, he spied
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Speaker 1: on them. His whole life was centered around deriving pleasure
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Speaker 1: from the stalking and then ultimately the murders of these
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Speaker 1: four beautiful Idaho University students.
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Speaker 3: It consumes your life.
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Speaker 1: So when he says, ah, that's just say it's pleasure,
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Speaker 1: that can only mean one thing.
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Speaker 8: You know, Nancy, in this situation with him, the guy
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Speaker 8: from New York, he's obviously a sexual statist, and he's
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Speaker 8: on the hunt. And with Coberger, he was in you know,
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Speaker 8: he was evolving, and so here and here has you know,
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Speaker 8: obviously evolved quite extensively. And what's happening on an investigative
11:53
Speaker 8: side here, Let's take Las Vegas in consideration. As we
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Speaker 8: all know, uh, you know, DNA is is really an
12:01
Speaker 8: important piece of this puzzle here, So everybody's pushing into
12:04
Speaker 8: codis real quickly. There are rapid DNA machines around the
12:08
Speaker 8: country that they're rushing. I can guarantee you there are
12:13
Speaker 8: machines theres that you can get a DNA at least
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Speaker 8: a partial hit.
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Speaker 1: Well, I certainly hope they're rushing to do it, yeah,
12:20
Speaker 1: because you know this, this investigation stalled for so many
12:24
Speaker 1: years for a number of races, which is a whole
12:27
Speaker 1: other can of worms. But that said, I certainly hope
12:30
Speaker 1: you're right they're rushing to make DNA comparisons.
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Speaker 8: Yeah, And it just shows you the power of a
12:34
Speaker 8: new set of eyes, right, I mean, they take another
12:39
Speaker 8: look at this with a new team and long and behold,
12:42
Speaker 8: within a couple of weeks, you know, they're talking about
12:45
Speaker 8: this guy, and so what's happening I think in the
12:50
Speaker 8: bigger picture here is this guy's living out his hunt
12:54
Speaker 8: fantasy in relationship to his next victimology. And so he's
12:59
Speaker 8: traveled around the country and he literally is, you know,
13:04
Speaker 8: looking for that next victim, and you know, we're we're
13:09
Speaker 8: it's going to be interesting to learn about how he
13:12
Speaker 8: does it because he's a compartmentalized type of personality, and
13:16
Speaker 8: the doc can talk about that all day. Evidence of
13:19
Speaker 8: the fact that that room underneath his house in the basement,
13:23
Speaker 8: I think it's going to end up being, you know,
13:26
Speaker 8: some significant torture arena of some sort. And then you
13:31
Speaker 8: look at the fixation of his house that you know,
13:34
Speaker 8: it's stuck in time, and so there's going to be
13:38
Speaker 8: a lot of interesting psychological work and relationship to what
13:43
Speaker 8: we're triggers. And then is there's time patterns that trigger
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Speaker 8: him in relationship to those events, perhaps even when he
13:51
Speaker 8: lost his father at twelve years old, you know, what
13:54
Speaker 8: were those things that he was fixated on during his
13:58
Speaker 8: early adolescens.
14:00
Speaker 1: Me is bernardat Villanova. She is a renowned New York
14:05
Speaker 1: criminal defense attorney. But what I like about her is
14:08
Speaker 1: she is a former prosecutor and you can find her
14:14
Speaker 1: at villainonalaw dot com. BERNARDA, you are hearing Chris McDonough,
14:22
Speaker 1: who really knows what he's talking about, describing what triggered heureman.
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Speaker 1: I don't care what triggered him. I don't care. All
14:33
Speaker 1: day long I hear defendants talk about boohoo, this is
14:36
Speaker 1: why I did it.
14:37
Speaker 3: Don't care.
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Speaker 1: The only remote interest I have and why he did
14:42
Speaker 1: it is it may help me find more crime victims,
14:48
Speaker 1: and I may be able to use that in front
14:52
Speaker 1: of a jury so that the pieces fit together perfectly
14:57
Speaker 1: until they can see the full puzzle picture. That's the
15:00
Speaker 1: only reason I care, because motive doesn't matter. I only
15:03
Speaker 1: care if it will show me some evidence.
15:05
Speaker 6: Exactly, Nancy, I'm one hundred percent with you.
15:07
Speaker 7: Of course.
15:08
Speaker 6: You know, even at a trial, you don't have to
15:10
Speaker 6: prove motive. I don't care his reasons.
15:12
Speaker 4: Why he did it.
15:12
Speaker 6: All the prosecution has to show that he is the
15:15
Speaker 6: person that actually did it, so in terms of his
15:17
Speaker 6: upbringing and what happened in the past. Yes, crime a river.
15:21
Speaker 6: They can probably use that at the time of sentencing
15:23
Speaker 6: for mitigation, but it doesn't matter when it comes to
15:26
Speaker 6: murdering the first degree. He is facing life without the
15:29
Speaker 6: possibility of parole. Here we're talking about three dead women,
15:33
Speaker 6: possibly another woman that he may be charged with, and
15:36
Speaker 6: who knows about the other people that were found dead
15:39
Speaker 6: in that same area.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, BERNARDA another thing that you just brought up.
15:44
Speaker 1: I'm going to jump in before I lose the thought.
15:47
Speaker 1: They're he's charged with six counts, which is three felony
15:50
Speaker 1: murdered counts on three victims and three murder two counts
15:53
Speaker 1: on the same victims.
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Speaker 3: There are a lot more dead bodies.
15:57
Speaker 1: One thing I find very intriguing is that, in his
16:01
Speaker 1: many disgusting I had to even say I had to
16:04
Speaker 1: wash my mouth out with peroxil yesterday after I read
16:07
Speaker 1: his Google searches all about beating women and beating little
16:11
Speaker 1: girls and raping them and sodomizing them. It just like
16:17
Speaker 1: little girls with bruised up and crying. Anyway, one of
16:24
Speaker 1: those searches was Jackie Sidney. Wasn't one of the searches
16:28
Speaker 1: Asian twink? Yes, okay, And one of the victims is
16:34
Speaker 1: a young male. And hey, Christian Thorn, jump in if
16:38
Speaker 1: you know more than we do. But I'm wondering if
16:40
Speaker 1: that search preceded the murder of the young male.
16:44
Speaker 4: See what I'm saying, Nancy, Even more importantly, transgender male,
16:48
Speaker 4: Asian male.
16:49
Speaker 3: Is this BERNARDA. Or is this Kristin?
16:51
Speaker 4: That's Kristin?
16:52
Speaker 3: Okay, did you say transgender Asian male.
16:55
Speaker 4: Yes, the victim was found in women's clothes.
16:59
Speaker 3: That's right, You're right. I recall that.
17:02
Speaker 1: So BERNARDA. His search is so critical because what if
17:08
Speaker 1: that search was done, let's just say, twenty four hours
17:13
Speaker 1: before this young Asian transgender male was found. Yes, Nancy,
17:20
Speaker 1: that's just not just a coincidence.
17:22
Speaker 6: Bernarda exactly. And Nancy, what I've been telling people is
17:27
Speaker 6: that just because there's an indictment having to deal with
17:30
Speaker 6: three of the women, that does not mean that there
17:32
Speaker 6: are not going to be future charges for the other
17:35
Speaker 6: people that were found along that beach. A lot of
17:38
Speaker 6: what we're finding out all gifts of pieces of circumstantial evidence.
17:43
Speaker 6: Once the circumstantial evidence starts mounting and mountain where you
17:47
Speaker 6: can't get over it, you'll probably see charges in those
17:50
Speaker 6: cases because that little piece right there of him searching
17:54
Speaker 6: about the Asian twinks, and then all of a sudden
17:57
Speaker 6: you see from the discovery of the bodies that there
18:00
Speaker 6: is someone who is Asian? Huh, just makes you think
18:04
Speaker 6: could this be related? Could it be tied? Could you
18:06
Speaker 6: be responsible? Could you have been involved? Were you there?
18:10
Speaker 6: What contact did you have with this person? Those are
18:13
Speaker 6: all questions that will have to be answered.
18:15
Speaker 1: Beautifully put and so concise. Guys, I have somehow let
18:20
Speaker 1: us down a rabbit hole. Actually a rabbit hole infers
18:23
Speaker 1: that it's not probative.
18:26
Speaker 3: That's not true.
18:27
Speaker 1: All of this is probative. And this is exactly what happens.
18:30
Speaker 3: When you're preparing a case.
18:32
Speaker 1: You go down every avenue, You think of every piece
18:34
Speaker 1: of evidence, any significance, What all you can prove from
18:38
Speaker 1: one piece of evidence? Like that Google search? Where was
18:41
Speaker 1: he when he searched it? Can I identify that? Did
18:43
Speaker 1: he immediately go on Craigslist after that? Did he start
18:47
Speaker 1: making calls with his burner phones trying to find a
18:49
Speaker 1: young Asian transgender male? Just so many questions that when
18:55
Speaker 1: was the mail the young male's body found?
18:58
Speaker 3: Can I get a time of day? Hey?
19:00
Speaker 1: Doctor Michelle Dupree is joining us for now Forensic pathologists,
19:04
Speaker 1: medical examiner, and former detective. She literally wrote the book
19:09
Speaker 1: Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Doctor Dupre shot to the forefront
19:14
Speaker 1: of the public consciousness during the Alex and Murdock trial,
19:17
Speaker 1: Doctor dupri, what do you make this young Asian male's
19:23
Speaker 1: body and as far as all of the other bodies go,
19:27
Speaker 1: nearly a dozen. Can we date the time of death?
19:32
Speaker 9: Well, Nancy, as you know, time of death is a range,
19:34
Speaker 9: it is an estimate, and so we can get fairly close.
19:38
Speaker 9: What I guess interests me about this case is that
19:41
Speaker 9: this killer, he is a very bright person. He is
19:44
Speaker 9: an organized killer, so he thinks about every move and
19:48
Speaker 9: so finding additional evidence is wonderful, and I'm sure that
19:52
Speaker 9: we're going to and hopefully we'll be able to tie
19:55
Speaker 9: that directly back to him, especially this Asian mail and
19:58
Speaker 9: that computer search that we're talking talking about there very well,
20:01
Speaker 9: maybe some information there that's going to lead us to him.
20:04
Speaker 1: So you're referring to extrinsic evidence that medical examiners often
20:09
Speaker 1: used to determine. Is this For the longest time, before
20:13
Speaker 1: I actually started trying homicide, I thought that the medical
20:17
Speaker 1: examiner would base their findings strictly on what was derived.
20:21
Speaker 3: From the body.
20:23
Speaker 1: But they also take into account extrinsic evidence, such as
20:26
Speaker 1: the victimated phone call at ten ten PM. Our body
20:30
Speaker 1: is found at one am, so we know the time
20:32
Speaker 1: of death is between ten and one.
20:34
Speaker 9: You're exactly right, And of course we look at that
20:36
Speaker 9: totality of circumstances. We look at that crime scene, We
20:39
Speaker 9: look for any scene markers that might be there, anything
20:42
Speaker 9: that might tie him to the victim or the victim
20:45
Speaker 9: to him, So all of that becomes important, not just
20:48
Speaker 9: what's on the body. Of course, you know, we like
20:50
Speaker 9: everything that's on the body because that's what we really
20:52
Speaker 9: deal in, but we deal with with all the other
20:55
Speaker 9: extrinsic stuff as well.
20:56
Speaker 3: You really do.
20:57
Speaker 1: I can't wait to hear your thoughts after you examine
20:59
Speaker 1: very carefully what we learned from the autopsies of all
21:03
Speaker 1: of these nearly a dozen victims. Hey, Kristin Thorne, investigative
21:07
Speaker 1: reporter WABC. Have you seen his Vegas Heidi holl Yeah,
21:13
Speaker 1: that's pretty lux I'm looking at a giant kidney shape.
21:17
Speaker 1: It's got to be an Olympic sized pool. It's only
21:20
Speaker 1: three stories tall. It's kind of an intimate setting. There's
21:24
Speaker 1: a pool house, there's a huge hot tub. And when
21:28
Speaker 1: he says he just went out for a pleasure trip,
21:31
Speaker 1: he knows quote some people what people sex workers.
21:34
Speaker 4: Well, you know that's where the question is. And Nancy,
21:37
Speaker 4: as I'm thinking about it, and I'm thinking about the
21:39
Speaker 4: picture of his luxury condo in Vegas in my head
21:42
Speaker 4: right now, and you contrast that to the home. We
21:45
Speaker 4: see a massive people at Park. I was there, so
21:48
Speaker 4: I've seen it with my own eyes the difference, right,
21:50
Speaker 4: So maybe when we talk about a double life, I
21:54
Speaker 4: mean this really may have been one. The property and
21:57
Speaker 4: massive people with Park. I'm sure people seen pictures. It
21:59
Speaker 4: is the last created. It's the one house on that
22:03
Speaker 4: street and that whole neighborhood that if you walk down
22:06
Speaker 4: the street, you would say, some one strange lives at
22:11
Speaker 4: that house, do you know what I mean? Every other
22:13
Speaker 4: house is viewed meticulous landscaping. That house is falling apart,
22:18
Speaker 4: and then you look at this luxury Las Vegas condo
22:23
Speaker 4: and so you start to question or wonder maybe this
22:29
Speaker 4: really was some sort of double life.
22:32
Speaker 3: What do you know about the South Carolina property?
22:35
Speaker 4: Kristen So he bought the South Carolina property to be
22:38
Speaker 4: near his brother who lives down there. The aerial photos
22:42
Speaker 4: that I've seen, and that's all that I've seen so far,
22:43
Speaker 4: I think that's all that's out there actually are aerial photos.
22:46
Speaker 4: It's a small house, but it's surrounded by woods. And
22:50
Speaker 4: he said he purchased that property to be near his brother,
22:53
Speaker 4: and we do know that his brother exists. In fact,
22:55
Speaker 4: I've reached out to the brother a number of times
22:57
Speaker 4: to try to get him on the phone, and you
22:58
Speaker 4: can imagine he's not picking.
22:59
Speaker 9: Up his phone.
23:00
Speaker 4: But that's why he says he bought that property.
23:02
Speaker 1: This place in Vegas is called Club Dislay. And of
23:06
Speaker 1: course they declined to comment when they were when attempts
23:11
Speaker 1: were made to reach them back to that secret room.
23:16
Speaker 1: And again I'm struck. I can't wait for doctor Bethany
23:18
Speaker 1: to tear this apart. The first thing he says to
23:22
Speaker 1: the warden upon arrest is, hey, is it in the news.
23:26
Speaker 1: I want to circle back to this room, this room
23:30
Speaker 1: that he kept padlock in his basement. Take a listen
23:34
Speaker 1: at our cut seventy one our friends at crimeonline dot Com.
23:38
Speaker 2: Katherine Sheppard told The Daily Mail that Rex Harriman started
23:42
Speaker 2: acting all weird when he told her she couldn't go
23:44
Speaker 2: into a locked room in the basement. Since he brought
23:47
Speaker 2: the interior designer to the home to make precise measurements.
23:50
Speaker 2: It was more than just odd. But she tells The
23:53
Speaker 2: Daily Mail that Harriman acted like he was kind of joking, like, Oh,
23:56
Speaker 2: you can't go in there because there's things in there,
24:00
Speaker 2: and then he said, I've got a bunch of guns.
24:02
Speaker 2: Shepard told the Daily Email he was acting weird about it,
24:05
Speaker 2: and she finally just said she could measure around it.
24:08
Speaker 2: Eighteen years later, Rex Harriman is arrested and charged with murder,
24:13
Speaker 2: and his former friend and sometimes coworker is left to
24:16
Speaker 2: wonder what was really behind the locked door in the basement.
24:21
Speaker 1: Joining me right now, Toby Wolson, forensic consultant specializing in
24:27
Speaker 1: DNA zerology bloodstain analysis at no Slow Forensic dot com. Toby,
24:35
Speaker 1: what would you be doing right now in that secret,
24:40
Speaker 1: padlocked room in human's basement if you had access to it?
24:44
Speaker 10: Well, you know, it's a room in the house. You're
24:48
Speaker 10: going to process it just like all the other rooms,
24:51
Speaker 10: but you're going to focus potentially more heavily on that
24:54
Speaker 10: one because it is locked. But you don't want to
24:57
Speaker 10: let it bias you that you don't properly handle the
25:00
Speaker 10: whole house. So you're going to be in there searching
25:02
Speaker 10: for the forensic evidence that can potentially connect him with
25:07
Speaker 10: the victims, because low courage principle is based on the
25:11
Speaker 10: idea that anytime you enter an area, you take something
25:14
Speaker 10: with you when you leave, but you leave something behind.
25:17
Speaker 10: So they would be looking for anything that could be
25:20
Speaker 10: used to directly connect any of the victims to him,
25:25
Speaker 10: or that house to any of the victims, or or
25:28
Speaker 10: just like when they look at the victims as something
25:31
Speaker 10: that would connect them to the killer. So it's the
25:33
Speaker 10: same type of processing, but you may be inclined to.
25:37
Speaker 6: Depending what's in there, be.
25:40
Speaker 10: Extra thorough on it though, but you're still going to
25:43
Speaker 10: be looking for all the same evidence regardless of if
25:45
Speaker 10: it's locked room or not. Here you want that direct contact.
25:48
Speaker 1: So, Chris mcjohn, I think what I would be doing
25:51
Speaker 1: if I were the forensic tech is first of all.
25:53
Speaker 3: Not let anybody in there.
25:55
Speaker 1: You need to be in there with one other person
25:57
Speaker 1: as your witness, just like you don't want to talk
25:59
Speaker 1: to it by themselves, because then later they'll claim I
26:02
Speaker 1: didn't say that, or you tortured me, or you hit
26:04
Speaker 1: me or whatever. You need somebody else in there with
26:07
Speaker 1: you or at the door watching you. They don't have
26:09
Speaker 1: to come in, you need to fully suit up, including
26:13
Speaker 1: footies like surgeons wear, so you don't transfer anything.
26:18
Speaker 3: From the outside in. You would immediately.
26:23
Speaker 1: I think the first thing I would do is look
26:25
Speaker 1: for fibers and hair, because that's so easily disturbed. The
26:31
Speaker 1: next thing I would do is, of course look for
26:34
Speaker 1: prints fingerprints, and you have to dust with a dark powder,
26:38
Speaker 1: but also I would go in there with aluminol and
26:42
Speaker 1: try to find if there were any blood pattern bloodstain
26:45
Speaker 1: patterns left, even speck because the naked eye can't see.
26:51
Speaker 3: What's left behind.
26:52
Speaker 10: Yeah, exactly.
26:53
Speaker 3: You know, it reminds me of something.
26:55
Speaker 1: I recently took the twins on a mission trip to
27:00
Speaker 1: Appellation and one of the things I was doing we
27:03
Speaker 1: painted a bathroom and it was in a church, and
27:08
Speaker 1: then I was going over the floor to get off
27:12
Speaker 1: any little paint drops that we had dropped in there.
27:16
Speaker 1: And I did it, and then I went back in
27:18
Speaker 1: saw Moore. I finally did each block of tile individually
27:24
Speaker 1: because I kept seeing paint that I missed the first time.
27:28
Speaker 1: Can you imagine in a room down in a basement
27:32
Speaker 1: with those lighting conditions, how much evidence could still be
27:35
Speaker 1: in there?
27:36
Speaker 8: Yeah, Nancy in and so you're going to approach this
27:40
Speaker 8: very carefully in relationship to a couple of things. Number one,
27:44
Speaker 8: and depending on the type of room it is, if
27:46
Speaker 8: it's a room set up to where he brings his
27:49
Speaker 8: victim and then he uses that room you know to
27:51
Speaker 8: as a torture tramber hypothetically, or the second is it
27:55
Speaker 8: a collector's room, meaning is this a place where he's
27:59
Speaker 8: keeping eyes items from the particular crimes. And then of
28:03
Speaker 8: course the third is just where he's keeping some of
28:06
Speaker 8: those guns that were utilized in those crimes. So there's
28:10
Speaker 8: there's three type of avenues that potentially could go on here.
28:13
Speaker 3: Maybe even more trophies can be in there too.
28:16
Speaker 1: Trophies, Yeah, somewhere where his wife wouldn't say, for instance,
28:19
Speaker 1: jewelry or driver's licenses.
28:22
Speaker 8: Absolutely, this is a room where he visits often evident
28:27
Speaker 8: of the fact that he locks that door. So he
28:31
Speaker 8: is the controller of that room, i ease, the controller
28:35
Speaker 8: of the victims and everything inside of that room. That's
28:39
Speaker 8: part of his secret life. That particular room. If in
28:43
Speaker 8: fact it's a place where they get in there, they
28:47
Speaker 8: can hit it with like you said, luminol blue star
28:50
Speaker 8: alternate light sources that are going to bring all that
28:53
Speaker 8: you know forensics evidence to the surface. But if it's
28:57
Speaker 8: a collector's room, that is going to be really fascinating
29:01
Speaker 8: because that's going to tell us about his trips, because
29:05
Speaker 8: this is going to be like a museum to him
29:08
Speaker 8: for him to relive those potential fantasies. Let's say he's
29:12
Speaker 8: doing things in Vegas, South Carolina. If this guy is
29:16
Speaker 8: traveling and then committing these crimes, he's bringing those items
29:20
Speaker 8: back to potentially this room.
29:22
Speaker 3: Tund to Bethony Marshall, why save an airs Well.
29:25
Speaker 5: Nancy, if we think about this crime, these crime serial
29:28
Speaker 5: killing is motivated by sex and power, right that the
29:33
Speaker 5: two are sort of joined or fused together in his mind,
29:37
Speaker 5: and he's going to have to take more and more
29:41
Speaker 5: extreme measures to achieve the sexual satisfaction. So what does
29:47
Speaker 5: that mean when you think about that, and what do
29:49
Speaker 5: those extra properties mean to me? It means that the
29:53
Speaker 5: souvenant mears no longer hold the satisfaction that they used to,
29:58
Speaker 5: and he's going to have to graduate from souvenirs to
30:02
Speaker 5: a real person being the souvenir. See remember there was
30:05
Speaker 5: one victim that he called I think sixteen times right
30:11
Speaker 5: on his burner phone, so he was getting some satisfaction
30:15
Speaker 5: by having contact with her, stalking her. So how does
30:19
Speaker 5: someone start when they graduate sexually. Maybe they're just looking
30:22
Speaker 5: at images online and then they're stalking a woman, Then
30:26
Speaker 5: they raped a woman, then they kill a woman. But
30:30
Speaker 5: the next step, I think is holding someone captive for
30:35
Speaker 5: a period of time so you can do whatever you
30:37
Speaker 5: want with them. So I think of this room not
30:40
Speaker 5: so much as holding souvenirs, because I think that's.
30:42
Speaker 9: A part of it, but I think of it as.
30:44
Speaker 5: Holding a live person so you can do whatever you
30:48
Speaker 5: want with them. And these properties where he's bought the
30:50
Speaker 5: properties is where he thinks they're sexual availability, right, like
30:54
Speaker 5: sex workers maybe going to strip clubs and things like that.
31:00
Speaker 5: But if you find someone who's transient, who's not really
31:03
Speaker 5: connected to their family, then there's the potential that he
31:06
Speaker 5: could hold that person for extended periods of time to
31:11
Speaker 5: do things to them.
31:12
Speaker 1: And that's not unreasonable since many of these attacks occurred
31:16
Speaker 1: while his wife and children were out of state, just
31:19
Speaker 1: as the way that Kristin Thorn from WABC Channel seven
31:23
Speaker 1: has pointed out that he would go to Vegas without
31:27
Speaker 1: his wife and children, which makes it's like a perfect
31:31
Speaker 1: storm happening.
31:45
Speaker 3: Time Stories with Nancy Grace.
31:49
Speaker 1: You know, I'm looking at the South Carolina property Kristin Thorne.
31:53
Speaker 1: It's like out of a Halloween movie. The sign is
31:57
Speaker 1: an old weather beaten fence, really weather beaten wooden fence,
32:05
Speaker 1: and it's got all these signs. Don't come in, keep out,
32:09
Speaker 1: no trespassing. There's litter, some litter around it.
32:14
Speaker 4: Is that a skull a stolen bone?
32:16
Speaker 1: Yes, there's a skull of crossbones. Skull and crossbones. No warrant,
32:21
Speaker 1: no entry, no warrant as in search warrant, no entry,
32:26
Speaker 1: keep out, no trespassing. That is on the front of
32:32
Speaker 1: his property. It's owned by human and his brother in Chester.
32:35
Speaker 1: They're barely visible from an unpaved road, surrounded by no
32:42
Speaker 1: trespassing signs.
32:44
Speaker 3: The local state.
32:45
Speaker 1: That the back of the lots meet onto a series
32:50
Speaker 1: of connecting ponds where some people keep boats. Now, he
32:56
Speaker 1: went to go cut the grass on one Sunday and
33:00
Speaker 1: when a neighbor approached him, apparently they were met with
33:05
Speaker 1: a steel pole out of nowhere. I don't know if
33:09
Speaker 1: that was him or the brother. And the neighbor actually
33:13
Speaker 1: called police. So they're serious about no trespassing. They don't
33:19
Speaker 1: want anybody on that property.
33:20
Speaker 4: Kristen, Yeah, I mean Nancy, looking at these pictures, I
33:23
Speaker 4: mean it's right out of a movie. I mean it's
33:25
Speaker 4: almost like, Ken, this is this real. It's exactly what
33:29
Speaker 4: you would think. And again, but I go back to
33:31
Speaker 4: how different this all is. You know, I wonder if
33:35
Speaker 4: the wife and the children went to the South Carolina property.
33:40
Speaker 4: I'm certainly curious about that. We haven't. I haven't read
33:43
Speaker 4: anywhere if they went to that property.
33:45
Speaker 1: No, the property in South Carolina was searched, but I
33:48
Speaker 1: think they need a thorough search where they use cadaver
33:52
Speaker 1: dogs and ground penetrating radar as well.
33:56
Speaker 3: What do you think about that?
33:57
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I mean you look at the scale of this property.
33:59
Speaker 4: I'm just looking at it now, with the woods. I
34:01
Speaker 4: mean absolutely could never. Dogs would not be out of question,
34:03
Speaker 4: And I don't think that that's unreasonable.
34:05
Speaker 5: Nancy.
34:05
Speaker 8: I think this could also be, you know, to Dovetail
34:09
Speaker 8: and doctor Bethany's thought earlier about you know, this is
34:14
Speaker 8: maybe an escalation and relationship to his control. I mean,
34:18
Speaker 8: he's trying to isolate himself on that piece of property,
34:23
Speaker 8: much different than obviously the inner city you know place,
34:29
Speaker 8: but in here, in this piece of property, it could
34:33
Speaker 8: have been in play in terms of what's the next
34:36
Speaker 8: level that he was going to go to. You know,
34:40
Speaker 8: he's exhausted, you know, some of the problems up in
34:43
Speaker 8: New York, and now he's got this isolation down here
34:46
Speaker 8: in South Carolina. And so it's going to be really
34:50
Speaker 8: interesting how they're going to connect those two pieces in
34:53
Speaker 8: relationship to his progression.
34:55
Speaker 1: Isolation in South Carolina and virtual anonymity in Vegas. Hey,
35:04
Speaker 1: another thing, Christen, I'm just learning that apparently Hureerman planned
35:10
Speaker 1: to quote by everybody out according to one of the
35:15
Speaker 1: neighbors who spoke to Fox News, and basically make a big,
35:20
Speaker 1: inaccessible compound.
35:23
Speaker 3: Wow. I wonder what he was going to do there.
35:25
Speaker 4: You know, Nancy, when these when these things come out,
35:28
Speaker 4: and anytime we cover cases like this, you hindsight's always
35:33
Speaker 4: twenty twenty, right, But we hear these stories of these
35:35
Speaker 4: little these little nuggets and these little details that were
35:39
Speaker 4: being dropped along the way to people. And I have
35:41
Speaker 4: to tell you, Nancy, even in reading that deposition I
35:44
Speaker 4: was talking to you about from twenty seventeen, Heureman says
35:47
Speaker 4: in it that he drives a Chevy Avalanche and here
35:50
Speaker 4: it is in a public deposition from twenty seventeen. He
35:54
Speaker 4: was not hiding these facts that ended up leading to
36:00
Speaker 4: him being arrested. And so again, I am not a
36:02
Speaker 4: forensic psychologist, not like your experts that are very, very
36:08
Speaker 4: professional and know what they're talking about here on this podcast.
36:11
Speaker 4: But you know, it does make you think, was he's
36:14
Speaker 4: so sure that he was not going to get caught
36:17
Speaker 4: that he was he pursued this civil litigation and he
36:22
Speaker 4: went to depositions and he did not hide these facts
36:26
Speaker 4: about his life that ended up being potentially connected to
36:30
Speaker 4: these crimes.
36:30
Speaker 1: I can't wait to read the depots you've just told
36:33
Speaker 1: me about, Kristin. I really appreciate you telling me about that. Hey, BERNARDA. Villaanona,
36:39
Speaker 1: high profile on New York criminal defense attorney and former
36:42
Speaker 1: prosecutor at Villa Loona dot Law, What do you make
36:48
Speaker 1: of what you're hearing?
36:49
Speaker 6: Nancy, There's so much going on. I just want to
36:51
Speaker 6: like screat Jesus talking about the pieces on the board.
36:55
Speaker 1: Do you did you actually just say did she actually
36:58
Speaker 1: just say the lord's name in vain?
37:00
Speaker 3: Did she actually say Jesus?
37:02
Speaker 1: Please please please don't get him mad at me.
37:06
Speaker 3: Oh that's what I don't need.
37:09
Speaker 1: So what do you make I mean when I'm starting
37:11
Speaker 1: to think about his so called real estate portfolios and
37:15
Speaker 1: a secret chamber in his basement, this is straight out
37:19
Speaker 1: of a.
37:19
Speaker 6: Horn a more absolutely Nancy.
37:22
Speaker 7: And this is why there's been so many shows and
37:24
Speaker 7: documentaries about this, And imagine how many more are going
37:28
Speaker 7: to come out now. But you gotta think that this
37:31
Speaker 7: man Humorman, he was living and playing slide. The thing
37:36
Speaker 7: is is that he never thought he was going to
37:38
Speaker 7: be caught. Remember, he was vigilant.
37:41
Speaker 6: He was constantly searching on the incident on Google to
37:45
Speaker 6: see what is the status of this investigation? Has there
37:48
Speaker 6: been any suspects? What are these two? Are these people?
37:52
Speaker 6: And he was basing that And he was doing that
37:55
Speaker 6: because he wanted to see if he can perceive how
37:57
Speaker 6: we should proceed. Is anyone on his Where can I go?
38:01
Speaker 6: What should I do? Where should I hide?
38:03
Speaker 7: What's my next step?
38:05
Speaker 6: He was always he always thought that he was two
38:07
Speaker 6: steps ahead of everyone, and that's why the DA miss
38:12
Speaker 6: the tyranny. He was very very strategic in the sense
38:15
Speaker 6: that he put it in a grand jury and he
38:17
Speaker 6: said he wanted to keep this investigation on the hush
38:21
Speaker 6: because he doesn't want to tip anyone to this investigation,
38:24
Speaker 6: because he thought that the person that was responsible, hence
38:28
Speaker 6: this man could be listening and watching to see law enforcements.
38:32
Speaker 1: Next move, Banana, You are so correct, because I'm now
38:38
Speaker 1: learning that there is evidence that Hureman was in fact
38:43
Speaker 1: monitoring and trying to find out all the moves inside
38:47
Speaker 1: moves of the investigators. What say started this new task
38:51
Speaker 1: force to find the Long Island serial killer? They were right,
38:54
Speaker 1: and you're right, hey, doctor Bethany Marshall.
38:57
Speaker 5: The possibility is that place was organized around his perversion,
39:03
Speaker 5: and it's his perversion was having power over people, and
39:08
Speaker 5: that was sexually exciting.
39:09
Speaker 3: Doctor Bethany.
39:10
Speaker 1: As much as I want to talk about human sexual excitement,
39:13
Speaker 1: can I ask you a question?
39:14
Speaker 5: Sure.
39:15
Speaker 1: This first came to my mind when I was prosecuting
39:18
Speaker 1: a child molestation. Two little sisters were both molested full
39:22
Speaker 1: on rate when was three one was seven by mommy's
39:25
Speaker 1: boyfriend who happened to be really wealthy.
39:29
Speaker 3: I started looking into him.
39:30
Speaker 1: He had attacks, I think he had thirty plus and
39:34
Speaker 1: his words natural children by many women, and he started.
39:39
Speaker 3: Raping and beating his own.
39:43
Speaker 1: Natural daughters, bio daughters, twenty five years before I got
39:48
Speaker 1: ahold of him.
39:49
Speaker 3: I'm happy to report he got put away for life.
39:52
Speaker 1: But when I got him, he was near seventy and
39:56
Speaker 1: still at it. This guy's fifty and he wants to
40:00
Speaker 1: retire to South Carolina. You don't think he still got
40:04
Speaker 1: it in him? You're wrong, You are wrong. Sex offenders
40:08
Speaker 1: continue offending until they're not breathing.
40:12
Speaker 6: That's right.
40:13
Speaker 9: They don't age out.
40:15
Speaker 11: Because it's not really sex per se. It's about achieving
40:22
Speaker 11: that next sexual high by doing something more and more extreme,
40:28
Speaker 11: and so you know, beating might be a part of it.
40:32
Speaker 11: Having more and more children so that you can have
40:34
Speaker 11: power over them, so you can corral them in some way.
40:38
Speaker 11: I was just thinking about the FLDS cult, and the
40:43
Speaker 11: leader of that cult didn't just stop at having sex
40:46
Speaker 11: with one child.
40:47
Speaker 5: He wanted more and more and more children, more.
40:50
Speaker 3: And more and more children to molest. It was endless quickly,
40:54
Speaker 3: Doctor Duprey. Where is Chester, South Carolina?
40:57
Speaker 9: Chester is actually a very very rural town and county,
41:01
Speaker 9: and it's up in the north sort of east, near
41:04
Speaker 9: the Charlotte border.
41:05
Speaker 1: Gotcha, because when I look at the areaal that Kristen
41:08
Speaker 1: Thorne was describing. It looks like where I grew up,
41:11
Speaker 1: out in the middle of nowhere.
41:13
Speaker 9: That's about right.
41:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, Toby Wilson, very quickly, what should authorities be doing
41:19
Speaker 1: in Vegas Manchester?
41:21
Speaker 10: They need to be looking for similar homicides and disappearances
41:26
Speaker 10: that match the New York ones because THEMO develops over time,
41:30
Speaker 10: but it stays essentially similar from beginning to end, and
41:34
Speaker 10: so they need to see if they have homicides or
41:36
Speaker 10: disappearances in those areas that match the MO of the
41:40
Speaker 10: New York cases. And then once they do that, then
41:44
Speaker 10: they need to start processing those properties to see if
41:48
Speaker 10: they can find some connection between the missing or dead person.
41:51
Speaker 1: Man, you're not kidding, Kristen Thorne with us very quickly,
41:56
Speaker 1: what comes next?
41:57
Speaker 4: I think today we're really and it's we we're going
42:00
Speaker 4: to see. I want to see what's coming out of
42:03
Speaker 4: his home out of these storage units. I have a
42:05
Speaker 4: lot of curiosity around these storage units, right because the
42:08
Speaker 4: home we know that his wife and his children were
42:11
Speaker 4: living there, and so it may not have the trophies
42:15
Speaker 4: that we would see in a storage unit. So to me,
42:19
Speaker 4: I'm very interested in seeing that I'm also going to
42:22
Speaker 4: be following up with Las Vegas, absolutely South Carolina. I
42:26
Speaker 4: think that there's a lot coming out of there, and
42:28
Speaker 4: I think we also should talk about, like you know,
42:31
Speaker 4: police law enforcement said yesterday that they talked to his
42:34
Speaker 4: family and that they were quote shocked, embarrassed, and disgusted
42:38
Speaker 4: that they had no idea they say that any of
42:40
Speaker 4: this was happening, but police are going to continue to
42:43
Speaker 4: look at them and they will be looking at their
42:45
Speaker 4: phone records as well.
42:47
Speaker 1: Guys, if you know or think you know anything about
42:51
Speaker 1: this investigation, be it in Massapequa, South Carolina, Vegas, please
42:59
Speaker 1: call one eight hundred two to zero Tips one eight
43:03
Speaker 1: hundred two two zero t I P S.
43:07
Speaker 3: Goodbye, friend,