Latest / Substack Writers Salon / How to Make Income as a Ghostwriter: Insights from Taylin Simmond

Transcript

How to Make Income as a Ghostwriter: Insights from Taylin Simmond · Substack Writers Salon

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: And we are live.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, everyone, and welcome to another Substack Live.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: I have with me today a fellow ghostwriter,
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Talyn John Simmons,
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: who used to be a college teacher,
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: then he moved to the world of ghostwriting.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: He has a massive network of followers.
• 0:21
  He teaches ghostwriting and others,
• 0:23
  and I'm so excited to be talking with you,
• 0:26
  Talyn,
• 0:27
  today.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: So first, how did you get into the world of ghostwriting?
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, great question.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: And thanks for having me.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: This is my first Substack Live.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm very new to this whole world of Substack.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: So it feels cool.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: It was cool.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for chatting with me today.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: how did I get into it?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: So long story short,
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: when I was a college teacher,
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: I actually loved being a teacher,
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: genuinely loved it.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I wanted to be a teacher since I was a kid.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: So it felt like I'd really achieved that goal.
• 1:02
  But I was teaching at a private school,
• 1:04
  private arts school,
• 1:05
  teaching people how to write music.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I was not making the money that I wanted to make.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I was happy with the lifestyle, but I wasn't happy with
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not making enough income and struggling to pay my bills,
• 1:16
  especially in Canada where it's so expensive and the cost of
• 1:20
  housing is so
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: expensive.
• 1:22
  And I was just looking for ways to make income outside of going
• 1:26
  back to get a
• 1:27
  college degree because I didn't want to go back to school for
• 1:29
  10 years to become a
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: psychologist.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, oh my gosh, I'll be in school until I'm like 38 years old.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: That would just be crazy.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't want to do that.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I met a friend at a coffee shop and he said,
• 1:42
  just write online every day for an entire year and I promise it
• 1:47
  will change your
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: life.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought he was crazy.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, how the heck do you make money online?
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know anything about it.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: I've never written on social media before.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I just thought, what do I have to lose?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: I guess I'll give it a try.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I started writing on Twitter.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: That was my first platform.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: And through writing on Twitter,
• 2:07
  all of a sudden people were talking about ghostwriting and it
• 2:09
  seemed pretty
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: lucrative.
• 2:11
  And then I got connected with Dakota Robertson who taught me
• 2:14
  how to ghostwrite.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I just basically rolled with the punches and ran with it,
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: worked for free for,
• 2:21
  I think it was like three months of free work to get experience
• 2:25
  that I could land
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: my own clients.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: And once I landed that first client, it was like a switch flipped.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, oh my God, you can actually make money online.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like, this is real.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: Magic internet money is real.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: You can actually start a business and make money.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then once that switch flipped, it was from there, I just ran with it.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I've been just ghostwriting ever since,
• 2:45
  expanded from Twitter to also writing on LinkedIn to writing on
• 2:48
  Substack and a
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: newsletter.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: And we'll soon be starting up YouTube as well.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, are you a full-time ghostwriter?
• 2:56
  I'm hoping that all of that went through because I think my
• 2:58
  internet's a little choppy.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, it's fine.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: I can hear you fine.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, are you a ghostwriter full-time?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so are you a ghostwriter full-time?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I'm a ghostwriter full-time.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: I've been doing it full-time since 2022.
• 3:23
  I started a business with my co-founder,
• 3:24
  who was a friend of mine from high school.
• 3:27
  And we basically turned it into a content marketing agency
• 3:31
  where we have a team of
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: ops managers,
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: writers.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: We have some VAs that work with us as well.
• 3:37
  And we ghostwrite on X and LinkedIn primarily,
• 3:40
  soon to be expanding to Instagram.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: But I've been doing it full-time now for almost three years.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so you mostly write on social media, correct?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, social media and we're going to be doing newsletters soon too.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 3:58
  Have you ever thought of ghostwriting books,
• 4:01
  like business books,
• 4:02
  memoirs and stuff like that?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because,
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 4:04
  it's actually more lucrative from my experience than writing
• 4:09
  social media posts.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: I personally haven't thought about it.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I've never ghostwritten a book,
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: but from what I've heard is I actually heard the opposite,
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: that it wasn't as lucrative,
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: which is why I never explored the opportunity.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: As a social media ghostwriter,
• 4:29
  the rates that we're able to charge now are around $5,200 a
• 4:34
  month per client plus a
• 4:36
  10% rev share of any leads and actual revenue that we bring in
• 4:41
  for the business.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: So it's recurring revenue.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: I heard with books that it takes a long time to write the books.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm actually not sure what the retainers and the royalties are.
• 4:52
  I can imagine if you get into writing books for people who have
• 4:57
  quite big audiences
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: and big personal brands,
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: I imagine it could be quite lucrative.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: But I haven't explored it myself just because I assumed that it wasn't as
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: profitable as content marketing.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:09
  So now with the advent of AI,
• 5:12
  are you worried about being replaced by AI?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like now I can easily go to whatever AI tool you're using and say,
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: write me a LinkedIn post that will bring me clients and whatever.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it can come up with that pretty accurately.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: And are you worried that you might be replaced?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: Personally, no, not at this time.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think maybe as the AI models get more advanced, they could.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: But here's what I usually say to my students as well,
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: because I ghostwrite,
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: or I teach people to ghostwrite as well.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: We run a ghostwriting coaching program.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: They might say, well, I think AI is going to replace us.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: People can just get the results they want.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I say,
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: if that is true,
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: then I want you to use AI to get more results than me this month.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: Just do it.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I say that to all my students.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like,
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: if that's true,
• 6:08
  get better results than all of the businesses on LinkedIn or
• 6:11
  the people out there
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: who are consistently crushing it.
• 6:13
  I want you to drive leads to your ghostwriting offer and just
• 6:17
  use AI to do all the writing.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I just haven't had anyone been able to do it yet.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there's this cultural idea that AI is just replacing everyone.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: But when you actually get into the specifics of it,
• 6:30
  I don't think it's that easy because in order to write really
• 6:32
  good content,
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: you have to be able to prompt really well.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm a big proponent of AI.
• 6:38
  I've built out some pretty crazy AI systems for myself and for
• 6:42
  our agency.
• 6:42
  And the amount of prompting and time it took me to actually
• 6:47
  create those was crazy.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: And the amount of detail.
• 6:51
  These prompts are sometimes 1,000 to 2,000 words long to get a
• 6:55
  really good solid
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: output that's only 80% of the way there.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so then same question with students.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: They're like, Hey, my prompts not working.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not getting really incredible results.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: What do I do?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just like, okay, well, what, what are you doing for your prompt?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I look at it.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like,
• 7:09
  you're going to need like these prompts need to be so much more
• 7:12
  refined and so much
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: more detailed and instructive in order to get good outputs.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: But because the students haven't written for long enough,
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: they're not sure what to include in those prompts.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: So to me right now,
• 7:22
  the barrier to entry is a lack of specific knowledge on how to
• 7:26
  get top performing
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: content.
• 7:28
  as well as a lack of general prompting knowledge on how to
• 7:31
  write really good prompts.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: And...
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Lately, I've been seeing many people becoming ghostwriters.
• 7:44
  I think there is a wave of people leading this and training
• 7:49
  people like Nicholas
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Cole and others,
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: which for me,
• 7:53
  it's a bit different because I focus more on books and business
• 7:58
  ghostwriting.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: So don't worry, we're not competitors.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 8:03
  So how do you keep a consistent client base with what you're
• 8:12
  dealing with now?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: So you have the saturated market, let's say, of ghostwriters.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: You have other people doing the teaching.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: You have the AI trying to steal people's jobs.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: How do you keep getting clients?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: What is your secret?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: What is your methodology?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: the audio was cutting out a little bit there,
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: probably from my Latin American Wi-Fi right now.
• 8:39
  But you were asking how to keep clients and get clients when
• 8:43
  there's more like
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: market saturation and competition,
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: That was the question?
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes,
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: whether from people teaching,
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: whether from people actually doing the ghostwriting,
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: and from AI.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, of course.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a few answers to this.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: I've been ghostwriting now for quite a few years.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: And as someone who also teaches people to ghostwrite,
• 9:07
  I'm probably going to say some things that I'm not supposed to
• 9:09
  as like someone
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: who's a coach,
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: but ghostwriting is actually quite difficult.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: we have noticed that there's a lot of people entering the market,
• 9:17
  but there's not that many people truly competing in the market
• 9:21
  because of how
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: difficult it is.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: platforms are always evolving.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like what worked maybe a year or two ago on Substack or X or LinkedIn,
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: that content doesn't really work anymore.
• 9:33
  There's more people that are entering the market,
• 9:35
  which saturates all niches.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: So if I'm writing for maybe a fitness client,
• 9:40
  there just naturally is more competition within that niche than
• 9:43
  there was before.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I have noticed that ghostwriting, it is fairly difficult.
• 9:49
  And the reason I bring this up is sometimes I feel with people
• 9:52
  that come to me
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: hey,
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: I really want to be a ghostwriter.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's like they want this golden ticket.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: They're like, oh, I just want to become a ghostwriter.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then I want to make magic internet money.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to make like 10K per month.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then I can just like travel and do what I want.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, yeah, I love that stuff too.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: That stuff's great.
• 10:07
  But you're still building a business and you have competitors
• 10:10
  and it is really tough.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: And you do have to adapt and always be learning.
• 10:14
  what's working now and not what was working even three or four
• 10:17
  months ago for these platforms.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: So there is that component that creates a bit of a moat.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: If you're someone who's got really good fundamental content marketing,
• 10:26
  you have good taste because you've been writing for such a long
• 10:29
  period of time,
• 10:31
  you're able to do market research effectively and actually find
• 10:34
  what's working and
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: then emulate it in your own way without stealing it completely.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: That can create a bit of a moat.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 10:41
  so that's like one thing that we try to do is just always be at
• 10:43
  the cutting edge as
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: an agency.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: And that helps create a bit of a moat.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: But the second thing that we try to do is we actually,
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: as much as we're ghostwriters,
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: we're more revenue partners for our clients.
• 10:55
  So what we used to do was,
• 10:56
  hey,
• 10:56
  we'll build your audience in social media.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: We'll build your brand.
• 10:58
  And that's where a lot of ghostwriters start for social media
• 11:01
  ghostwriting because
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: that is the natural easiest entry point.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's like the lowest skill.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot more competition for that.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, hey, I'll build your brand and I'll just write your content.
• 11:11
  What we learned eventually was that a lot of businesses want
• 11:14
  basically a positive ROI.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: They want it to be very tangible within one to three months.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: They want like a two to five X on the money that they pay.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: And we realized,
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 11:23
  if we can plug into that and we can be a revenue multiplier for
• 11:27
  these businesses.
• 11:29
  then we create a bit of a moat because we become embedded in
• 11:32
  our customers,
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: basically infrastructure.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like if they don't pay us, they actually make less money.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: And that was what we switched into at the end of last year.
• 11:41
  And that's been what's really helped us differentiate and keep
• 11:45
  our clients long term.
• 11:47
  Like we've had some clients for over six to seven months who
• 11:51
  have actually told us,
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: if we don't work with you,
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: we don't make money.
• 11:55
  You guys are the only agency we've found to consistently get a
• 11:59
  5x on the money we
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: pay you each month.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: And that's become our moat.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where we like to focus our energy now.
• 12:04
  And there's a lot less people with the skill set of lead
• 12:07
  generation than there are
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: with people who are content writers.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: So that helps as well.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: So what are your top tips for lead generation for ghostwriters?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like for ghostwriters to get leads for themselves?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say I'm a ghostwriter.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: I focus on books, newsletters, and business content.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: How do you think I should get clients?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: I have capacity to take on two or three more clients.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: What should I do?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a great question.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to try to keep it really simple.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: I can be bad for getting lost in the weeds.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: Go ahead.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a few things.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: Let's say that someone listening to this is a new ghostwriter.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: They maybe haven't got their first client yet,
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: or they have one,
• 13:00
  but they want to get another one and raise their rates and
• 13:02
  things like that.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: The first thing that I always recommend people do is you need more proof.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: The more proof you have,
• 13:10
  the easier it's going to be to get clients and to convert on
• 13:14
  clients and to charge
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: higher prices.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: For example,
• 13:17
  when I was starting out as a ghostwriter and I didn't have any
• 13:20
  clients yet,
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: I just reached out to other ghostwriting agencies and said,
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: hey,
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: can I write for you for free?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: I just am hungry.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: I want to learn.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: For free?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Why for free?
• 13:30
  I did it for free because in my mind,
• 13:32
  I knew that if I could get social proof,
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: then I would be able to instantly jump my prices up quicker.
• 13:39
  So I think what a lot of people try to do,
• 13:42
  and these are two different strategies.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: This is just the one that I recommend and what works for me was,
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 13:46
  if I can just work for free and just crush it for these
• 13:49
  agencies and I can get
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: screenshots of all the metrics and I can show like,
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: this is what I can do.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: Look at all the impressions, the follower growth, the leads.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: Then when I get on a call with a client,
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: instead of being like,
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: I've never had my first client,
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to have to charge like $500 a month or something.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: And there's going to be a lot of skepticism.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I was, I'll just, I helped on my first sales call.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: And the guy was like,
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: hey, like, who have you written for?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like, can I see some proof?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I just had this massive folder of like 60 screenshots of proof.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, yeah, this is everything I got.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: These are the results that you can expect.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: It'll be 30, I think it was 3,200 a month.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: That was my first client ever.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: And he was just like, okay, let me think about it.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then he emailed me back later.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, yeah, let's do it.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I was able to go from having no clients at all
• 14:37
  to just jumping to charging for like more premium rates where
• 14:41
  from other students
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: that I've coached,
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: they struggle to do that without proof.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: So the,
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: whether it's writing for a client for $500,
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: $200 in the beginning,
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: like my thought process is spend the first like three to five months,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: just depending on how quickly you can get the proof,
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: just skill stacking and getting proof.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: Cause the second you have proof,
• 15:01
  your rates just jump right up and then it's easier to make a
• 15:04
  sustainable amount of
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: income.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: So that would be the first step for me.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: And if you have questions, I can stop there.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and how did you even get that person to respond?
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm assuming you did a cold outreach.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: So like for me,
• 15:23
  it's the whole process of client acquisition is how do you
• 15:27
  identify who you contact
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: and which platform do you use to contact them?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: And what is it in your cold outreach that make people respond?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because I personally get tons of cold outreaches
• 15:42
  like all the time email linkedin um x and i just hardly respond
• 15:50
  to any of them um
• 15:52
  so how did you get that first client to respond to you yeah
• 15:58
  that's a really great
• 15:59
  question um so in the beginning i actually got my first client
• 16:04
  through a referral
• 16:05
  So I took a bit of a different approach than most people do
• 16:08
  because I actually do a
• 16:09
  lot more cold outreach now for our agency because I think it's
• 16:12
  necessary to scale.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: But I was very resistant to it for a long time.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I just don't enjoy it.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's not fun for me.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I was like, I don't want to.
• 16:22
  So I just reached out to other ghostwriting agencies and
• 16:24
  ghostwriters and said,
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: hey,
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: can I write for you for free?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like, hey, do you need some help?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I connected in that industry.
• 16:30
  And then one of those ghostwriting agencies was like,
• 16:32
  hey,
• 16:33
  I'm at capacity.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: Do you need a lead?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, oh yeah, that'd be great.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: And then he passed it over to me.
• 16:37
  So I took a referral approach in the beginning to get my first
• 16:41
  bit of clients.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then after that,
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: I just switched to primarily inbound where I was on X and then LinkedIn,
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: but it was the same strategy.
• 16:51
  We were just writing viral content that would still appeal to
• 16:56
  the people that we
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: wanted to get as clients,
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: which were founders or coaches or consultants.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: So we would identify viral topics and trends
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: that we thought those people would read.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then I would write them and then just have a CTA that was like,
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: hey,
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: if you're this person,
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: if you're a coach or founder looking to get these results,
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: here's the results we got for a past client.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: Here's all the impressions, followers, leads, or whatever.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: Click here to apply.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: And all my leads came in inbounds.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: I actually have not done outreach for my agency until 30 days ago.
• 17:29
  30 days ago was the first time we did outreach for our agency
• 17:32
  in three years.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting because, you know, you hear different opinions.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: People say like,
• 17:41
  don't just post content and expect people to come to you that
• 17:44
  would never happen,
• 17:45
  that you have to do cold outreach and like you have to send
• 17:48
  like 10 DMs a day and
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: all of that.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Do you agree with this advice?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: In my experience, it depends on the offer.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: So for ghostwriting,
• 18:02
  I find that lead flow from inbound has become inconsistent
• 18:06
  because it's not as blue
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: ocean.
• 18:08
  So back when I first started in 2022,
• 18:10
  2023,
• 18:10
  and even the first half of 2024,
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: it just felt like lead flow was insane.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like I,
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: it was like,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't even trying and they were just like coming to me and I was like,
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: I can't even fulfill like all this volume.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: This is, but as, but that's cause there was less people.
• 18:26
  So I found there was only like three or four people who were
• 18:28
  really known for
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: ghostwriting and it was just kind of a thing in the industry.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, you go with one of these four people.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 18:34
  nowadays there's a lot more people in the market and inbound is
• 18:38
  more inconsistent
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: on LinkedIn and on X.
• 18:41
  So that's where I think nowadays having either a warm outreach
• 18:45
  or a cold outreach
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: component is necessary.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to have consistency of clientele,
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: but you might,
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: have a couple of posts crush and you get like 10 leads in a day.
• 18:58
  And then maybe you don't get any more inbound leads for three
• 19:01
  or four weeks.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: If you just don't have something really hit.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: So if you add cold outreach into that strategy,
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: and you can do it effectively without sounding weird and spammy,
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: like I'm sure you and I both know,
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: most cold outreach sounds like,
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: then you can create more consistency of lead flow and scale.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: And it makes it easier to expand your team and get predictable revenue.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm actually very pro cold outreach.
• 19:23
  So what changed when,
• 19:25
  you know,
• 19:25
  I guess you're still posting the same content.
• 19:28
  So what changed when you used to get tons of inbounds and now
• 19:31
  you're not getting as
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: many inbounds as they used to?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: What happened?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: if I'm being totally honest,
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: my brand actually has a bit of a product problem or a service problem.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, I should call it an offers problem.
• 19:47
  So I have my ghostwriting agency and the people that we serve
• 19:51
  are founders,
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: coaches,
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: consultants.
• 19:53
  And I have a ghostwriting coaching business that I do with
• 19:57
  Dakota Robertson and my
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: other co-founder,
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: Dale.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: And that's more for writers, freelancers, nine-to-fivers.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I actually have two offers, two completely different avatars.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I have a horizontal scale.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: which I actually, it's not what I recommend to anyone.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: If I was just doing the agency and I was like,
• 20:14
  I just have to create content for this one ICP and just like
• 20:17
  hit content for that
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: every day and just target founders,
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: my lead flow would be much more consistent.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: But because I'm trying to drive traffic to both offers,
• 20:27
  it creates a bit more of an inconsistency of lead flow and it
• 20:30
  kind of blends my
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: audience between those two.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: And it's actually kind of hard to like horizontally scale it.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: And this is why,
• 20:39
  I would just recognize a general business principle to anyone
• 20:41
  who has offers that I
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: think that your offers should stack to one avatar.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: And it's what I call vertical scale.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: where it's multiple offers to one person.
• 20:51
  So as a ghostwriter,
• 20:52
  it might look like,
• 20:53
  hey,
• 20:53
  we do social media ghostwriting for you.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: And then we can do newsletters.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: And then we can bring you to other social media platforms.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: And you have multiple offers that stack to one person.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's just easier to have consistency of lead flow and to scale that way,
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: where I have a horizontal scale problem.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a part of where my lead flow problem is.
• 21:12
  So what are the content that you think brought you the most
• 21:16
  inbound leads?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of content that really,
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:22
  was kind of the shining example of how content should be to
• 21:27
  generate leads?
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: For a ghostwriting offer...
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's different than other offers, so you keep that in mind.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: But for ghostwriting, it depends on the platform.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: So on X,
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: if you want to get consistent inbound leads,
• 21:43
  it's just about writing viral threads that have a slight tilt
• 21:47
  towards market
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: sophistication.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: So for example,
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: one of the best lead flow threads I ever wrote was,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: this is Naval Ravikant's favorite book by David Deutsch,
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: The Beginning of Infinity.
• 22:00
  Here are like six of the craziest ideas from the book that you
• 22:03
  need to know.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: That works because I know that founders are going to read it.
• 22:08
  The average person isn't going to read the beginning of
• 22:11
  Infinity because it's like
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: a science book on like thinking.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's like very deep.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's very hard to comprehend.
• 22:16
  So anyone who's like interested in this book is probably going
• 22:20
  to have a bit of a
• 22:21
  higher sophistication level or be a founder who's very
• 22:23
  interested in like truth
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: seeking and science and things of that nature.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: So when I posted that, we got a bunch of inbound leads.
• 22:31
  I think we ended up closing two or three of them that week just
• 22:34
  from that one thread alone.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: And it's because it has that higher sophistication level.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: So on X, I find that works really well as
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: That tends to be a little bit like politics,
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: if you want to write about politics,
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: like new political policies,
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: business strategies,
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: news from big companies,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: stuff that founders and coaches would actually read.
• 22:55
  And that's how you do it on X.
• 22:57
  On LinkedIn,
• 22:59
  there's two ways you can do it.
• 23:00
  But I find LinkedIn to be a little bit weirder for ghostwriting
• 23:03
  lead flow is you
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: can either just go super top of funnel or
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: which is writing seven productivity hacks for the workplace,
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: career strategies,
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: stuff like that that's just going quite viral on the platform.
• 23:19
  And you can get a good amount of leads or case studies will get
• 23:23
  a lot of leads.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: Fine case studies are really good on LinkedIn,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: but on X,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: they don't have enough viral potential to get reach.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: So they tend to be very poor for getting ghostwriting leads.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: If anything on X,
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: you'd want to do a trending thing,
• 23:35
  and then you want to put a case study at the bottom of the
• 23:37
  thread in order for it
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: to work.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: So what kind of case study of what?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of case study would you post?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I usually keep it pretty simple for ghostwriting stuff.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's...
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like, here's a problem.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like, so this founder came to us, was struggling to get leads.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: He had tried other agencies, et cetera, et cetera.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: What do you try?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: And that's because this strategy doesn't work anymore.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: Here's the new strategy that we did.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: And these are the results that it got.
• 24:09
  It got this many impressions,
• 24:10
  this much leads,
• 24:11
  made the founder this much money.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: If you want results like this, click here.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: It tends to be something like that.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: I find it works really well.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: Fascinating.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I'm getting every business coaching session.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone who's actually listening, so it's fun.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: So did you recently join Substack?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: When did you move to Substack?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Why did you choose Substack?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just curious about where Substack is headed.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: I want to answer this question,
• 24:50
  but I see that there's a question here about lead generation
• 24:54
  posts on LinkedIn.
• 24:55
  And I actually have a second answer for this that I think would
• 24:57
  be really valuable.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: Do you mind if we... Sure, yeah.
• 24:59
  So the question is,
• 25:01
  what are best inbound lead generation posts for ghostwriting on
• 25:05
  LinkedIn?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's from listener Lucas Peris.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: I hope I pronounced the name wrong.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: Lucas Peri, maybe.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: Depends on his personality.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 25:19
  OK,
• 25:20
  so this is what I would actually do on LinkedIn if you want
• 25:22
  consistent lead gen.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's a little bit contrary to the technique that I just told you,
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: but there are multiple lead gen strategies.
• 25:30
  So the way that I would do it is you actually want to get case
• 25:34
  studies and you want
• 25:35
  to post case studies two to three times a week on the results
• 25:40
  you're getting
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: clients.
• 25:43
  And you might think,
• 25:44
  well,
• 25:44
  case studies aren't going to perform super well.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not going to really be going viral.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: And that's true.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: But the way that this works is if you're going to also do cold outreach,
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: your profile starts to act like a wall of testimonials to some degree.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: So you want half of your content to be value-based stories.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: This is why I do business.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: These are the ethics behind the way I do business.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: This is how I lead my team.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: Stuff that some other business owners can relate to and be like,
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: dang,
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: I really like this person.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: They value family as well as business.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: So that would be half your posts.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: The other half are more like authority and case studies.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: And even though they don't do well,
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: the purpose of them is that when you cold DM someone,
• 26:26
  the first thing they're going to do if they like the message is
• 26:29
  check your profile.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: And when they scroll, if what they see is like, oh, value-based story.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: I also like value family.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, the next one.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, a case study.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: He crushed it for, oh, someone exactly like me.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, another value-based story.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, another case study.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, this person's like really consistently getting results.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: I actually think I will respond to that person.
• 26:48
  So that is one strategy you can use is not to actually go with
• 26:52
  like the viral
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: content and trying to get inbound,
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: but you can just go with,
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 26:56
  my profile is basically a landing page and I need to have all
• 26:59
  the proof and all my
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: values and the relatable facets of me.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: So when people come to the profile after I DM them,
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: they like what they see and then they're more receptive to responding.
• 27:09
  interesting I like I like how you called it the wall of like
• 27:13
  testimonials LinkedIn
• 27:14
  I never thought of LinkedIn this way but this is this is genius
• 27:19
  thank you and back
• 27:23
  to Substack when did you join and where do you think Substack
• 27:30
  is headed because the
• 27:32
  reason I asked you mentioned you've been active on X and we'll
• 27:37
  get to X later but
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Are you transitioning your kind of time or focus on Substack now?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: What is your Substack strategy?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great question.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: So to answer that,
• 27:54
  keep in mind that I have been on social media writing now for
• 27:58
  about three-ish
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: years,
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: three and a half,
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: actually.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: X was my first platform.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: And in a lot of ways, it was kind of like my baby.
• 28:07
  It's like my first love that just always had a place in my
• 28:09
  heart because that's where I started.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: And it's where my first business success was.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's where I met a lot of my current friends and my mentors.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I do have a soft spot for that platform.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: But then I wanted to just de-risk.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm going to go to LinkedIn.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: That way,
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: if X gets a little bit weird,
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: at least I still have LinkedIn,
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: which I'm very happy I did that because they get kind of weird.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I have LinkedIn to offset it.
• 28:32
  And I'm at a point now where I'm doing everything I can to grow
• 28:36
  on X and LinkedIn
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: as quickly as I can while being in alignment with my brand.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I need more channels.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I thought Substack was just naturally like,
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 28:45
  I'm going to go to Substack because I can take some of my
• 28:48
  tweets that I like.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: I can rewrite them.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: I can add more nuance for the platform.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: I like the idea of doing my newsletter on Substack.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: I like the energy on Substack.
• 28:57
  As much as X is kind of my first love,
• 28:59
  I actually don't like the platform very much anymore.
• 29:02
  I think it just got totally ruined over the past few years,
• 29:05
  unfortunately.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't expect that to happen.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: I really had hoped that it was going to become better.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: But I really miss old Twitter when I started.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: It was just such a fun, awesome platform with so much opportunity.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, Substack feels like old Twitter.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's true.
• 29:25
  Let's hope that who shall not be named end up buying it and
• 29:32
  doing what he did to...
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: But,
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: so I noticed you have,
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: 8,000?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Over 8,000 subscribers on Substack.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's a huge number.
• 29:48
  How did you get so many subscribers to your Substack and how
• 29:53
  many of them are paid
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: subscribers?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, good question.
• 29:58
  So I've been growing my newsletter list on socials for a couple
• 30:03
  of years now.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't take it like really that seriously.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: I wish I did.
• 30:07
  That's probably one of my biggest regrets as a creator was not
• 30:09
  focusing more on newsletter.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: But I grew to around 8,000-ish subscribers over the past few years.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I did it on Beehive.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I just have lead magnets on X and LinkedIn.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: I have journal prompts that I give away.
• 30:23
  I have a free ghostwriting community where you learn to
• 30:26
  ghostwrite with AI and get
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: your first client.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: I have that with Dakota Robertson.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a few,
• 30:32
  they're kind of like lead magnets where people can basically
• 30:35
  get access to those
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: and then they get added to my email list.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I've been growing that for a couple of years.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: And when I started on Substack,
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: just to be totally transparent,
• 30:44
  I realized that the subscriber count acted kind of like a
• 30:47
  social proof mechanism,
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: like followers.
• 30:49
  So I ported all of my newsletter subscribers from Beehive over
• 30:53
  to Substack.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: And then I set up an automation where when somebody gets my lead magnet,
• 31:00
  They get added to Beehive because Beehive as a newsletter
• 31:03
  platform has better
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: automations than Substack and better funnels.
• 31:08
  And then what happens is they automatically get added to my
• 31:11
  Substack as well.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I actually send all my newsletters through Substack.
• 31:16
  But people,
• 31:16
  they subscribe to my newsletter and they're technically on
• 31:19
  both.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: But when they unsubscribe from one, they get eliminated from both.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I usually only email from the Substack one.
• 31:25
  But I can't use lead magnets and get people on Substack as far
• 31:29
  as I know.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: So this is the only workaround that I know of for right now.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you do that, Zapier?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Or how do you do that automation?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it does APR automation.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: To be transparent, I paid a guy to do it for me.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, is this even possible?
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: Because that was why I hesitated to get on Substack for so long.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, how does this work?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: Do I have two newsletters?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then how do I figure out who to email?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: And is it confusing if I send from one platform?
• 31:55
  But when I figured out I could just add them all here and then
• 31:57
  to Substack and I
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: could just send everything through Substack,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: perfect.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'll make the switch now.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: I was in a similar situation.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I was on both ConvertKit and Substack.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then I moved everyone to Substack.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: But then now I have my business products, which is on Kajabi.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: So they're both on this.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: But Kajabi, I only use for business emails.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, I just launched a new course.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: Or I have a new book.
• 32:29
  and if you click and then they go into a funnel and then they
• 32:32
  get tagged and all of
• 32:34
  kind of that like heavy marketing material goes through the
• 32:38
  kajabi software but
• 32:39
  substack is for fun i mean substack is where we do this right
• 32:43
  you know and then
• 32:44
  they get notified that we're doing this but uh i'm not sure
• 32:48
  it's a good strategy
• 32:50
  but you know i'm i'm like it's all about experimentation and
• 32:54
  and we're trying and
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: it's it's fun um
• 32:58
  before okay so so do you think the you mentioned like now
• 33:03
  Substack is like the old
• 33:05
  twitter so do you think we all should be on Substack now like
• 33:11
  the writers and the
• 33:12
  ghost writer and and how long would like when will this
• 33:17
  honeymoon be over if it's
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: gonna be over that's a really good question as well um i think that
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: anyone who's like serious about writing and,
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: running a newsletter and maybe selling digital products or,
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: and things and consulting and things like that should be on sub stacks.
• 33:38
  It feels to me like the new fresh blue ocean pond where the
• 33:42
  engagement is like
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: pretty good for the amount of effort.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: People are active.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: The energy is just good.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like I just can't even after being on socials for three years,
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like,
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: Oh God,
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: I just love the energy on sub stack.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's so awesome.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I do think that people should be on there.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: In terms of ghostwriting opportunity,
• 34:00
  I'm not convinced right now that there's people who are going
• 34:03
  to pay to have you
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: ghostwrite their Substack yet.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think maybe newsletter ghostwriting, that has always been a thing.
• 34:11
  But maybe I'm too new and I just haven't dipped my feet in the
• 34:16
  pond enough yet.
• 34:18
  But still,
• 34:18
  most of the leads I get for ghostwriting are on X and LinkedIn.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say 70% of it's LinkedIn right now.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: 70 to 80% is LinkedIn.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: People want LinkedIn growth more than anything.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: So Substack to me feels like my creator platform.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: You were saying it's like the fun thing.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's where it's like I can write about.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: I can write about what I want.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: I can have fun writing notes and I can do my newsletter.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: But when it comes to my ghostwriting business,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: I actually focus more on other social platforms for that.
• 34:48
  I just bring that up because I'm not convinced that someone
• 34:50
  right now could go on
• 34:51
  Substack and start ghostwriting and like actually turn it into
• 34:55
  a lucrative
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: business.
• 34:56
  I don't have enough experience to say if Substack is ready for
• 34:59
  that or maybe we
• 35:00
  need more users or it also seems to be like people on Substack
• 35:04
  want to write their
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: own content.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like it feels very creator central.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: I noticed that on Substack,
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: if I mentioned like a case study,
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: like this is how you become like a good ghostwriter or whatever.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: This is how you get clients.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: It hardly gets engagement.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: While it gets engagement on LinkedIn,
• 35:23
  what gets engagement on Substack is a picture of me walking my
• 35:26
  dog in the woods.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:28
  or like or more or more personal observations like a client
• 35:34
  ghosted me and like i
• 35:36
  go on a rant about a client ghosted me that would get more you
• 35:39
  know and but it's
• 35:40
  just it's interesting and sorry that's my cat is bothering me
• 35:45
  at least it's
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: probably hungry um
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a question here from Kagura Jichuru.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: I hope I did not butcher your name, Kagura.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it says, kindly speak on how to grow on Substack as well.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm pretty new to Substack, so I'm still figuring it out.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: But here's what I'm doing right now.
• 36:14
  I'm doing one to two hours a day of commenting and just DMing
• 36:18
  other people that I
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: like from scrolling the feed and just like,
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: I really like this.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to chat with this person and connect.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: So that's one thing that I do is just connecting with more people,
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: seeing who I vibe with,
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: who I might want to follow or maybe through chatting with them,
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: they end up wanting to reciprocate and follow back.
• 36:35
  So it's a little bit of just getting into the Substack
• 36:39
  community and chatting with
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: more people and becoming more.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: I don't mean that in a transactional sense.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not there for two hours.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: Just follow me on Substack.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: You never want to do that.
• 36:50
  It's just genuinely connecting with people,
• 36:52
  but that is a very organic way to grow.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: It seems like keywords are also quite big on Substack.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to talk about philosophy,
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: writing,
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: copywriting,
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: to actually use those words in your posts.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure how effective that is because I'm still so new,
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: but it does seem like one way to do it.
• 37:08
  And the other way to grow on Substack is to actually just bring
• 37:12
  people from other
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: social platforms.
• 37:14
  Like I would say most of my Substack growth doesn't even happen
• 37:17
  on Substack.
• 37:18
  It's just from me having people join my Substack newsletter
• 37:22
  from LinkedIn or from
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: X.
• 37:24
  I think I get probably 20 to 50 new subscribers a day between
• 37:29
  LinkedIn and X.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that doesn't come from like Substack organically,
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: but it's still my Substack subscribers.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: 20 subscribers a day?
• 37:38
  20 to 50 usually yeah that's a lot that's that's and how many
• 37:44
  of those are paid if
• 37:45
  you don't mind sharing that yeah i'm not doing a paid
• 37:49
  newsletter right now just
• 37:50
  free subscribers because i want to expand to instagram and
• 37:56
  youtube before i do the
• 37:57
  paid newsletter that way i'm i'm covering all the socials and
• 38:01
  i'm bringing people
• 38:02
  from all socials to substack and then i'll add the paid
• 38:05
  newsletter component but
• 38:07
  Right now,
• 38:07
  it's taking me too long to figure out how do I systemize
• 38:10
  Instagram?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: How do I also systemize YouTube and make sure it's time efficient?
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's just taking me too much time.
• 38:17
  So I don't feel I have the bandwidth to write extra paid
• 38:21
  newsletters right now
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: without sacrificing those opportunities.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: I like your approach is very like focused.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so you basically go all in,
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: in one platform,
• 38:35
  you kind of figure out its secrets and then you move to a
• 38:39
  different platform.
• 38:40
  You do not like juggle or like,
• 38:43
  you know,
• 38:43
  some people like are everywhere.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, like masters of none, but yeah,
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: So what does the future hold for talent, John Simmons?
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: What are you working on now?
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you see yourself in, let's say, five years?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm asking you like in a job interview.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: How do you see yourself in five years or so?
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a good question.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: Again, good question.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: So right now, okay, what am I working on right now?
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: So as a ghostwriting agency, we are expanding to Instagram.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: So we want to have Instagram,
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: LinkedIn,
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: X,
• 39:32
  and newsletters as our four platforms that we can offer
• 39:34
  services so that if someone
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: pays us for LinkedIn and it's going well,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: and say, hey, do you also want to grow on X?
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want to do Instagram?
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: Should we add a newsletter?
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it gives us a lot of ways to like vertically scale up our clients.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm learning Instagram right now and that's taking me a lot of time.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: As we were saying, it's learning a new platform well does take time.
• 39:54
  The days of all the platforms being kind of similar and you
• 39:56
  post the same stuff on
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: different platforms,
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: like those days are long gone.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: Each platform has its own rules and needs its own content adaptation.
• 40:04
  So right now I'm working on that for the ghostwriting agency,
• 40:06
  making sure we can go omnichannel.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: for our ghostwriting coaching offer,
• 40:13
  we are refining the curriculum and adding a new component to it
• 40:16
  on the backend that
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: helps people scale to like 10 K per month as ghostwriters.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_02: That takes up a lot of bandwidth, like doing course creation.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then for myself, I'm still writing my newsletters each week.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm about to add Instagram for myself and YouTube while trying to be more
• 40:33
  consistent on Substack because Substack's my kind of new thing
• 40:36
  that I'm not as
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_02: consistent with.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: So in the short term,
• 40:39
  those are like the projects that I want to finish up in the
• 40:43
  next few months.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: But in five years,
• 40:46
  I'm actually hoping to transition to just writing fiction and
• 40:49
  being a fictional
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: author.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: So that's my five-year plan.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: Why fiction?
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's just a passion project for me.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: I've always wanted to write fiction.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: I've had ideas since I was a kid.
• 41:00
  I believe that where your wandering thought goes is maybe where
• 41:06
  your calling is or
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: where your purpose in life is.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: And if I'm just out for a walk or by myself,
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: I always just think about fiction that I could write.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: It takes up most of my bandwidth.
• 41:15
  So for a little bit of context,
• 41:18
  I was a musician before I was a ghostwriter.
• 41:21
  And I know what it's like to be a starving artist who struggles
• 41:24
  to make money off of their art.
• 41:26
  So I'm trying to be more strategic now where I'm growing on all
• 41:31
  the social platforms.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm learning that how to capture an audience.
• 41:34
  I'm building what I call high leverage businesses where my team
• 41:38
  and my systems do a
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: lot of the work once they're built.
• 41:42
  And I can only put maybe like 10 to 20 hours a week into those
• 41:45
  businesses to keep
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: them afloat and make the changes.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then I'll have more bandwidth to be like,
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: the rest of my time is just going to go to writing fiction.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: I can do it without sacrificing income.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_02: I can do it from a place of abundance instead of scarcity.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like I need to make money off these books or like I need to get a job.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I genuinely like the businesses that I run too.
• 42:05
  So it's a multi-year process where I don't think I'll start
• 42:09
  writing fiction until next year.
• 42:13
  Maybe the year after if I'm unlucky,
• 42:14
  but I think next year will be the starting point.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that will be my long five-year play,
• 42:21
  but focusing on the leveraged income and the businesses and the
• 42:24
  audience growth.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, this is great.
• 42:26
  I mean,
• 42:27
  I write fiction and if you ever want to book coach,
• 42:30
  you know,
• 42:32
  shameless plug here.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a question here from Carrie Loringer.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: How do you talk about Substack on Instagram?
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I personally don't talk about Substack on other platforms.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: I just...
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: On other platforms,
• 42:52
  I have lead magnets or basically free things that I give away
• 42:57
  where people have
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: to...
• 42:59
  subscribe to my Substack in order to get them so one of them is
• 43:04
  i'm really big on
• 43:04
  journaling and writing as a self-improvement tool is like one
• 43:08
  of my obsessions so i
• 43:09
  have this massive list of journal prompts so i i like giving
• 43:12
  those away for people
• 43:13
  who want help with mental health or self-improvement and when
• 43:16
  they get access to
• 43:17
  those they also get added to my Substack and then there's an ai
• 43:21
  ghost writing course
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: that dakota robertson and i put together
• 43:24
  For people who want to learn how to be ghostwriters that when
• 43:26
  they join that
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: course,
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_02: they get added to my Substack as well.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't talk about Substack on other platforms.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: I just talk about,
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: mental health,
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: self improvement,
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: philosophy,
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: writing,
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: ghostwriting,
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_02: and then people get added to my Substack as subscribers.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I hope that makes more sense.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned learning and how you learn.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of media do you consume?
• 43:47
  And what do you think the book or the mentor or the podcast
• 43:53
  channel that had the
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: most effect on you in terms of business growth?
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: For business growth in particular,
• 44:02
  I feel people could basically just consume Alex Hermosi and
• 44:08
  they'd probably hit
• 44:09
  their business goals unless they're like huge goals of wanting
• 44:13
  to make like
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: hundreds of millions.
• 44:14
  But if someone wants to build a lifestyle business or turn
• 44:18
  writing into a career,
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: full-time,
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: become an author,
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: a ghostwriter,
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: a copywriter,
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: you could read Alex Hermozzi's books and watch his YouTube.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like you would learn everything you need to.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: And in terms of business,
• 44:31
  I would say he's the single most impactful person that has
• 44:34
  truly helped me get good
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: or better.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to say I'm good at business.
• 44:38
  I'm still a novice to business,
• 44:40
  but who has helped me get a lot better at business.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_02: Naval Ravikant's book,
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_02: or The Almanac of Naval,
• 44:48
  Ravikant by Eric Jorgensen is another really good one on the
• 44:51
  philosophy of business
• 44:52
  and leveraged income and the idea of developing leveraged
• 44:55
  income and making money
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_02: with your passions and things like that.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's a very good philosophical take on business.
• 45:03
  But for more tactical stuff,
• 45:04
  Alex Hermosi is probably the one I would just recommend going
• 45:07
  to.
• 45:07
  It's just the amount of useful information per second is insane
• 45:12
  from that creator.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: What about podcasts that you listen to?
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_02: I don't actually listen to a lot of business stuff.
• 45:23
  Truthfully,
• 45:24
  I don't like business that much,
• 45:25
  which some people might find kind of funny.
• 45:27
  To me,
• 45:28
  business is just the medium that I get leveraged income to do
• 45:33
  the things I want to do.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm an artist at heart.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a creative and a creator.
• 45:37
  I don't like getting lost in the weeds of business,
• 45:40
  but I know the pain of
• 45:42
  of wanting to make money off of the things that you care about
• 45:45
  and off of your art
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: and really struggling to do so and just being like,
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_02: I wish I could just create all day.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't until I realized I had to learn business to make my art and
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_02: creativity into a career
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: that I started to value business more.
• 46:01
  But I'm not one of those guys who will read a book on
• 46:03
  Rockefeller or like,
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: I really just need to know all the new business stuff.
• 46:07
  I need to know the amount of business stuff that allows me to
• 46:11
  bring this art to life.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_02: And aside from that, I focus more on
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: like Modern Wisdom is probably the only podcast I really listen to.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: I focus more on like self-improvement,
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: looking for big ideas and fun things to write about,
• 46:25
  solving problems in my own life and just doing research on
• 46:29
  those so I can write
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: about them.
• 46:30
  And I focus more on like the ideas and the creativity than
• 46:33
  business itself.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm a terrible person to ask about like these podcasts and stuff.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, definitely what you're doing is working.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this has been a wonderful talent.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 46:49
  I personally learned a lot and I hope people who are joining us
• 46:54
  or will listen or
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: read this later will learn as much as I learned from you.
• 46:59
  And how can people reach you if they want to learn about
• 47:02
  ghostwriting or if they're
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: like founders who want to hire your agency?
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: What is the best way to reach you?
• 47:09
  yeah thank you so much for having me on first uh substack lives
• 47:12
  on natasha this was
• 47:13
  awesome i had a lot of fun if people want to connect with me
• 47:17
  it's talen john
• 47:18
  simmons on substack you can just send me a dm there i check
• 47:21
  them every day and
• 47:22
  would be happy to chat about writing ghost writing philosophy
• 47:26
  spirituality like
• 47:26
  literally anything i don't know i'm just obsessed with ideas
• 47:30
  great anything else
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: you'd like to add before we conclude um
• 47:38
  If you're someone who's watching and you do want to get into
• 47:40
  ghostwriting,
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: Dakota Robertson and I do have a free course on basically getting into AI
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: ghostwriting,
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: landing your first client,
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: the processes and the systems behind that.
• 47:49
  And if you're someone who loves to write to better yourself and
• 47:54
  you see writing as
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: a self-improvement thing,
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: I have some journal prompts that have truly saved my life,
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: helped me with frustration,
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_02: anxiety,
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_02: limiting beliefs,
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: sticky identity changes that are holding me back in life.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_02: I love these prompts.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: I use them all the time.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'd be happy to send those over to anyone who's interested in that.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_02: So you have two options.
• 48:14
  You can write to build wealth,
• 48:16
  ghostwriting,
• 48:16
  or write to better self journal prompts.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: This is great.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you very much for joining me today.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: And please definitely stay in touch.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: And for anyone who's listening or watching,
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: thank you for joining us today for this Substack Live episode.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: And until we meet again, ciao.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Natasha.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.