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#355 Guest Host Gilbert King with Juan Roberto Melendez · Wrongful Conviction

0:04
Speaker 1: On the evening of September thirteenth, nineteen eighty three, beauty
0:07
Speaker 1: school owner Delbert Baker, known to his friends and customers
0:10
Speaker 1: as mister Dell, was found dead in the back room
0:14
Speaker 1: of his school in Auburndale, Florida. He had been shot,
0:18
Speaker 1: his throat was slashed, and the place was covered in blood.
0:22
Speaker 1: Witnesses gave police the names of a couple of locals
0:24
Speaker 1: whom they had seen with mister Dell that evening, but
0:27
Speaker 1: the case eventually went cold. A few months later, a
0:32
Speaker 1: man named David Luna Falcon told police that an acquaintance,
0:35
Speaker 1: Juan Melendez, had allegedly bragged about committing the murder with
0:39
Speaker 1: two accomplices. One of them, a man named John Berrion,
0:43
Speaker 1: admitted to police that he had been the accessory after
0:46
Speaker 1: the fact, giving him the vantage point to name the
0:49
Speaker 1: other accomplice and Juan Melendez as well. Law enforcement caught
0:54
Speaker 1: up with Juan in Pennsylvania, extradited him to Florida, and
0:58
Speaker 1: charged him with first degree murder. At trial, David Falcon
1:02
Speaker 1: and John Berrion testified that Juan shot mister Dell and
1:06
Speaker 1: stole a watch, a gold bracelet, four diamond rings, and
1:10
Speaker 1: fifty dollars in cash before fleeing the scene. When one
1:14
Speaker 1: of the original suspects who had been seen with mister
1:16
Speaker 1: Dell that night was called by the defense at trial,
1:19
Speaker 1: he invoked his Fifth Amendment rights not to testify. Clearly
1:24
Speaker 1: he had nothing important to add. But this is wrongful conviction.
1:42
Speaker 1: Welcome back to wrongful conviction. I'm Gilbert King and I'm
1:45
Speaker 1: filling in for Jason Flahm, and today we have a
1:48
Speaker 1: case out of Polk County, Florida, where I've spent so
1:52
Speaker 1: much time doing research for the last like four or
1:54
Speaker 1: five years, researching other cases, and so I'm very familiar
1:58
Speaker 1: with that prosecutor's office as well as some of the
2:01
Speaker 1: judges in that area. And these are the very same
2:04
Speaker 1: folks that sent Juan Melendez to death row. They kept
2:08
Speaker 1: them there for over seventeen years. So this is in
2:10
Speaker 1: a state. You know, Florida, for the last one hundred
2:14
Speaker 1: and two executions, has exonerated thirty people from death row.
2:19
Speaker 1: So you just doing the math on that Florida has
2:22
Speaker 1: admitted to condemning one innocent person at least every fifth
2:27
Speaker 1: time that they seek the death penalty. And you know,
2:30
Speaker 1: we're just so glad that our guest today survived and
2:34
Speaker 1: he's here with us now. Juan Melendez, welcome one.
2:37
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
2:38
Speaker 1: Jan thanks so much for joining me today. I really
2:40
Speaker 1: really appreciate it. And joining us is also Juan's habeas attorney,
2:45
Speaker 1: who at the time was with Florida's Office of the
2:49
Speaker 1: Capitol Collateral Representative and she eventually went on to private
2:53
Speaker 1: practice and she co founded the National Habeas Institute. Linda McDermott, Linda,
2:58
Speaker 1: welcome to the show.
3:00
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
3:01
Speaker 1: Now. I became familiar with Polk County when I was
3:03
Speaker 1: digging into a really troubling case for my podcast Bone Valley.
3:08
Speaker 1: This is the story where myself and co host Kelsey
3:11
Speaker 1: Decker and I we covered the wrongful conviction of Leo Schofield,
3:15
Speaker 1: and you know, we continue obviously to hope for justice there.
3:20
Speaker 1: Leo's prosecutor, John Aguero rose up in the ranks with
3:24
Speaker 1: Wan's prosecutor Hardy Pickard. And by the end of this interview,
3:28
Speaker 1: I think that our audience is going to get a
3:30
Speaker 1: glimpse of what I've seen. But before we get to that,
3:33
Speaker 1: you know, one, can you just tell us about your
3:36
Speaker 1: life before you ever even knew who Hardy Pickard was.
3:40
Speaker 2: I'm born in Brooklyn, New York, but I was facing
3:43
Speaker 2: the island of Puerto Rico. It took back when I
3:45
Speaker 2: was just a little kid. But when I went to
3:48
Speaker 2: it to Florida. I went in nineteen seventy, it's still segreation,
3:54
Speaker 2: blacks in one side, white in another side. And I
3:58
Speaker 2: had the biggest outfro in town. So you know where
4:00
Speaker 2: they're gonna put me in the black side. And I
4:03
Speaker 2: loved it. I love every bitder of it, so I
4:06
Speaker 2: was happy. My work was mostly picking fruit, the gray fruits,
4:12
Speaker 2: the tanierines, the orange, all citral fruit. So that's what
4:15
Speaker 2: I used to do, mostly pick fruit. Migrate from Florida
4:19
Speaker 2: to the state of Pennsylvania and do some more, get
4:23
Speaker 2: the apples and the beaches and stuff.
4:25
Speaker 1: Now what the victim in this case Delbert Baker. He
4:28
Speaker 1: was known to many of his customers and friends as
4:31
Speaker 1: mister Dell. He owned a cosmetology school in Auburndale, Florida,
4:36
Speaker 1: which is right in Paul County. What have you ever
4:39
Speaker 1: been to Auburndale? Ever ever run into Dell? I mean
4:42
Speaker 1: maybe wenting there for a haircut or something.
4:44
Speaker 2: First of all, I had to tell you, I've never
4:46
Speaker 2: been in a Cote mestology school, you know where their
4:50
Speaker 2: fitst hair and all that stuff, and been in one
4:52
Speaker 2: of them. I've seen them in TV. I've been in
4:55
Speaker 2: in Abunda, in the little town where that crime happened.
4:59
Speaker 2: Like I told you, picking foot, that's it. Never know
5:03
Speaker 2: that man was Knittin and heal who he.
5:06
Speaker 1: Was, and mister Dell. He had been brutally attacked on
5:09
Speaker 1: the evening of September thirteenth, nineteen eighty three. He was
5:13
Speaker 1: discovered in the back room of his hair salon by
5:16
Speaker 1: his own sister. His throat had been slashed, he'd been shot.
5:21
Speaker 1: Blood obviously was everywhere. Linda, what do we know about
5:25
Speaker 1: the initial investigation? Were there any leads or any obvious
5:28
Speaker 1: motivations into this crime.
5:30
Speaker 3: The investigation started that next day and it appeared the
5:33
Speaker 3: motivation may be a robbery because jewelry was missing, money
5:37
Speaker 3: was missing from his workplace. It was unclear if there
5:41
Speaker 3: was a motive beyond the robbery, and there were quickly
5:44
Speaker 3: some leads.
5:46
Speaker 1: Now from what I've read, one of those leads was
5:48
Speaker 1: a man named Vernon James.
5:50
Speaker 3: That right, there was an individual named Terry Barber, who
5:54
Speaker 3: had told law enforcement he had seen Vernon James with
5:57
Speaker 3: another man named Harold Lamb at mister Dell's place of
6:02
Speaker 3: business on the evening of the crime. However, according to
6:06
Speaker 3: law enforcement, they checked with Harold Landrum's employer and he
6:10
Speaker 3: had an alibi for that evening, so the James and
6:14
Speaker 3: Landrum lead didn't get pursued.
6:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, what strikes me funny about that is this You
6:20
Speaker 1: mentioned Landrum's alibi, but not one for Vernon James. And
6:24
Speaker 1: we've seen even like rock solid alibis get completely ignored
6:28
Speaker 1: by police and prosecutors. Well, let's take wand for instance.
6:31
Speaker 2: I had an alibi and I had three people, Corribo,
6:35
Speaker 2: Raven the alibi. All I know that Bena James was
6:38
Speaker 2: a police informer. I think Landrow was two.
6:41
Speaker 1: So potentially these were both police informants. We know that
6:44
Speaker 1: Vernon James was for sure. And then the police ignored
6:48
Speaker 1: your alibi, but not Landrums, whose alibi was apparently strong
6:52
Speaker 1: enough to cover for Vernon James as well. And then
6:56
Speaker 1: the case went cold allegedly until five thousand dollars was
7:01
Speaker 1: offered for information. And this is five thousand dollars in
7:04
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty four, you know, February nineteen eighty four to
7:07
Speaker 1: be exact. Just like that, the police received a tip.
7:12
Speaker 3: One individual came forward and his name was David Luna Falcon,
7:16
Speaker 3: and he said that in January of nineteen eighty four,
7:20
Speaker 3: he and mister Melendez had been you know, drinking and
7:23
Speaker 3: enjoying themselves in a nightclub, and mister Melendez had been
7:28
Speaker 3: very you know, specific detail told mister Falcon what had
7:32
Speaker 3: happened that night. Falcon had said that someone had taken
7:37
Speaker 3: mister Melendez and another individual to the hair salon, and
7:42
Speaker 3: he mentioned the name John in his original statement to police,
7:47
Speaker 3: but he didn't have any particular names, and that mister
7:50
Speaker 3: Melendez and another individual went to mister Dell's and robbed him.
7:56
Speaker 1: And from crime scene photos we know that whoever actually
7:59
Speaker 1: did this had slashed Delbert Baker's throat and shot him
8:03
Speaker 1: in the head. And although Falcon was not clear about
8:06
Speaker 1: who was wielding the knife, he alleged that Wan had
8:09
Speaker 1: claimed to have pulled the trigger.
8:11
Speaker 3: And there was this odd detail in his testimony that
8:15
Speaker 3: before mister Melendez allegedly shot mister Baker, mister Baker had
8:20
Speaker 3: started throwing blood at mister Melendez and this other unknown
8:25
Speaker 3: person and begging, begging mister Melendez to take him to
8:29
Speaker 3: the hospital. And at that point, allegedly mister Melendez said
8:33
Speaker 3: that he shot mister Baker.
8:35
Speaker 2: Right.
8:35
Speaker 1: And now Linda Wan wasn't even a suspect until he
8:38
Speaker 1: came forward, Is that correct? Correct?
8:40
Speaker 3: I mean, there was no evidence linking Wan at all
8:43
Speaker 3: to this crime.
8:44
Speaker 1: Now, Wan, did you know this David Luna Falcon gentleman.
8:48
Speaker 2: Yes, I did I know him. I know he was
8:50
Speaker 2: a paid police informan. I know it was some kind
8:53
Speaker 2: of guns against me and him.
8:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I read. In addition to receiving five
8:59
Speaker 1: thousand dollars, it was known that David Falcon did not
9:03
Speaker 1: like you. In fact, several witnesses they later testified a
9:06
Speaker 1: trial that they had overheard Falcons say that he would
9:09
Speaker 1: quote get you. But at this point the police, I guess,
9:13
Speaker 1: looked you up and they must have seen that you
9:15
Speaker 1: had an armed robbery charge on your record.
9:18
Speaker 2: And I'm not gonna lie to you. I had a
9:20
Speaker 2: prior rikle.
9:21
Speaker 1: And even though that had nothing to do with what
9:23
Speaker 1: happened to mister Dell, it's really not out of the
9:26
Speaker 1: ordinary for that a criminal record can act as a
9:29
Speaker 1: motivator for police to focus on someone. But what about
9:33
Speaker 1: these two other men, the alleged accomplices. Falcon had only
9:38
Speaker 1: said the name John, and then a friend of yours
9:41
Speaker 1: named John Berryon was arrested. So other than his friendship
9:45
Speaker 1: with you, there doesn't appear to be anything else that
9:48
Speaker 1: led them to this particular John now Linda in Florida
9:52
Speaker 1: with felony murder. The threat of the death penalty was
9:55
Speaker 1: looming over John Berrion, and he agreed to implicate one
10:00
Speaker 1: as well as his cousin, George Barrion. But to even
10:03
Speaker 1: have this alleged firsthand knowledge, he had to implicate himself
10:08
Speaker 1: to some degree.
10:09
Speaker 3: He implicates himself to the extent that he says he
10:12
Speaker 3: drove George barrion friend mister Melendez to the studio, but
10:15
Speaker 3: he also says I didn't know anything that was going
10:17
Speaker 3: to happen. And so John Barron is originally charged with
10:21
Speaker 3: first degree murder and ultimately agrees to testify against Juan
10:27
Speaker 3: in exchange for a nolo contendre plea to accessory after
10:32
Speaker 3: the fact, which would immediately allow him to be released
10:36
Speaker 3: from jail and to have served any sentence that he
10:39
Speaker 3: would have with that particular charge.
10:41
Speaker 1: So John Baryon escaped the electric chair in exchange for
10:45
Speaker 1: a story in which he was an accessory after the fact.
10:49
Speaker 1: Now Falcon had said mister Dell had allegedly thrown blood
10:53
Speaker 1: at Wan in his accomplice, but that didn't match up
10:56
Speaker 1: with John Berrion's story.
10:58
Speaker 3: It certainly didn't match up in that John Barrion said
11:00
Speaker 3: that mister Melendez and George Baron left the hair salon
11:04
Speaker 3: without any blood on them. You know, there was nothing
11:07
Speaker 3: unusual about them other than he started suggesting that they
11:10
Speaker 3: had some jewelry and things that could have been obtained
11:13
Speaker 3: during this robbery. And then he goes on to tell
11:16
Speaker 3: another piece of the story where he says the next
11:18
Speaker 3: day or two days later, he gives George Barrion a
11:23
Speaker 3: ride to the train station, mister Melendez is again with them,
11:26
Speaker 3: and at that point he sees mister Melendez give George
11:29
Speaker 3: Barrion a watch and some rings and tell him to
11:32
Speaker 3: take them to Delaware and to pawn those and obtain
11:37
Speaker 3: money for them. And the law enforcement did find out
11:41
Speaker 3: that mister Barry and George Barrion did in fact purchase
11:44
Speaker 3: a ticket to go to Delaware within a day or
11:46
Speaker 3: two after the Baker homicide. So John Baryon's story did
11:52
Speaker 3: have some pieces that the law enforcement believed could corroborate
11:56
Speaker 3: what he was saying.
11:57
Speaker 1: It actually only corroborated that George Barrion's children lived in Wilmington, Delaware.
12:02
Speaker 1: Now George Barrion he later testified that he'd only met
12:07
Speaker 1: Wan once at John Berrion's house and denied any involvement
12:11
Speaker 1: in mister Dell's murder or this alleged train station jewelry handoff.
12:16
Speaker 1: And ultimately George Barrion was never charged with anything, but
12:21
Speaker 1: the police continued with these two conflicting statements from Falcon
12:25
Speaker 1: and John Barrion that did match up on the one
12:28
Speaker 1: detail that they needed that Wan was involved. And so
12:31
Speaker 1: they found out that you were in Pennsylvania working in
12:34
Speaker 1: the fruit orchards, which was misconstrued as fleeing. Had you
12:38
Speaker 1: like ever heard that this you know, murder had even taken.
12:41
Speaker 2: Place, never heard about, So you were completely.
12:44
Speaker 1: Unaware that you were a suspect, you know, let alone
12:47
Speaker 1: about to be arrested.
12:48
Speaker 2: And I never forget this day made a second nineteen
12:52
Speaker 2: eighty four, why we was working it was by a
12:55
Speaker 2: police card and they stopped in front of us and
12:59
Speaker 2: they told us to hit put a weapon on us.
13:02
Speaker 2: Then they ordered me to get up. Then they said
13:05
Speaker 2: you are on the arrest for first degree murder and
13:08
Speaker 2: i'm robbery in the state of Florida.
13:10
Speaker 1: You were then extradited back to Florida. And at the
13:14
Speaker 1: time I understand you could not even speak that much English.
13:18
Speaker 2: The true is I know at that time, if I
13:21
Speaker 2: say five words in English, believe in my friends, three
13:25
Speaker 2: of them would because words. So they brought interpreted to
13:29
Speaker 2: explain to me what es tradition mean. And all he
13:34
Speaker 2: told me in Spanish was you either wave it or
13:38
Speaker 2: fight it. They can take you back anyway. I start thinking,
13:42
Speaker 2: I'm not a killer. My mama did not raise no
13:45
Speaker 2: kill us. I'm going to wave it. As soon they
13:48
Speaker 2: see this ugly face in Florida, they will let me go.
13:52
Speaker 2: But I was wrong. When I go back, they took
13:55
Speaker 2: me in front of the George, and the George he
13:57
Speaker 2: read the charges to me. He said, you being be
14:00
Speaker 2: indicted for first degree murder and I'm bravri in the
14:03
Speaker 2: state of Florida is sinking the death penalty against you.
14:06
Speaker 2: The elected chair.
14:20
Speaker 4: This episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenberg Trawig
14:23
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14:26
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14:29
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14:36
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Speaker 4: reimagining what big law can be because of a more
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15:09
Speaker 1: So, meanwhile, in that same month, from what I've read,
15:12
Speaker 1: it appears that in order to ensure that your prosecution
15:15
Speaker 1: went smoothly, the lead detective Gary Glisten, chose to go
15:20
Speaker 1: to these extraordinary lengths to protect the initial informant in
15:23
Speaker 1: this case, David Falcon, from himself from damaging his own credibility.
15:28
Speaker 3: When Falcon committed a home invasion in I believe it
15:33
Speaker 3: was in May of nineteen eighty four, Glisten went to
15:37
Speaker 3: the victims of that home invasion and put pressure on
15:40
Speaker 3: them not to prosecute. According to one of those victims,
15:45
Speaker 3: the woman who had been at the house, she was
15:48
Speaker 3: told that if we arrest Falcon, all that's going to
15:51
Speaker 3: happen is he's going to make bail and he's going
15:54
Speaker 3: to come back and he's going to harm you. And
15:57
Speaker 3: so rather than protecting her, they were basically telling her
16:00
Speaker 3: the only way she could protect herself was to waive
16:04
Speaker 3: prosecution and then they would sort of tell Falcon to
16:06
Speaker 3: back off.
16:07
Speaker 1: Which seems, you know, completely antithetical to his duty as
16:10
Speaker 1: a police officer. He chose to protect the credibility of
16:14
Speaker 1: the state's dubious star witness, David Falcon instead of Falcons
16:19
Speaker 1: victims both you know, past and future. So did Hardy Picker?
16:24
Speaker 1: Did he know about this home invasion cover up?
16:27
Speaker 3: His response to that was to tell Detective Glisson and
16:30
Speaker 3: others to stop using Falcon for the time being as
16:33
Speaker 3: your informant, because he didn't want to have any more
16:37
Speaker 3: of these types of issues occur before the trial.
16:40
Speaker 1: So he was willing to accept Falcons were you know
16:43
Speaker 1: just this once though, so Wan's court, a pointed attorney
16:46
Speaker 1: Roger Alcott did not have the benefit of this impeachment evidence.
16:50
Speaker 1: And now there's just four months to prepare for a
16:53
Speaker 1: death penalty trial.
16:54
Speaker 3: Mister Alcott and his trial investigator, Cody Smith, they started
16:58
Speaker 3: to follow up on some of the leads that law
17:01
Speaker 3: enforcement didn't find fruitful when they were following up on things,
17:05
Speaker 3: and mister Elcott sent his investigator to speak to Vernon James,
17:10
Speaker 3: and ultimately mister Elcott lists mister James as a witness
17:16
Speaker 3: for the defense, and he tells the state that mister
17:20
Speaker 3: James is going to come in and say that he
17:24
Speaker 3: committed the murderer or that he was there and that
17:27
Speaker 3: mister Melendez was not there.
17:30
Speaker 2: My attorney used to pat me in the back. You say, no,
17:34
Speaker 2: what about it, mister Melendez? You going home and I
17:39
Speaker 2: soon go home. I did not commit the crime.
17:42
Speaker 1: You know, perhaps Pickard should have looked at this evidence,
17:44
Speaker 1: the Vernon James interview, as well as the home invasion
17:47
Speaker 1: cover up for star witness, and just let you go home.
17:50
Speaker 1: But instead Falcon and James were free to commit more
17:54
Speaker 1: crimes while Wand's prosecution went on as scheduled, and that happened.
17:58
Speaker 1: In September nineteen eighty four, the state had what we
18:01
Speaker 1: now know to be the false, incentivized or coerced testimonies
18:06
Speaker 1: of David Luna Falcon and John Berrion. To recap this,
18:10
Speaker 1: Falcon alleged that you had bragged that a man named
18:14
Speaker 1: John dropped you and another man off at Delbert Baker's salon.
18:19
Speaker 1: Baker's throat had been slashed. According to Falcon, mister Dell
18:23
Speaker 1: got blood on you. He begged you for help, but
18:26
Speaker 1: you shot him. Then John Berrion corroborated Falcon's allegation that
18:32
Speaker 1: he had dropped you and his cousin, George Barrion at
18:34
Speaker 1: the salon. But Barrion, you know, in contrast to Falcon,
18:38
Speaker 1: when he picked you up, neither of you were covered
18:41
Speaker 1: in blood. So your attorney pointed out that inconsistency, which
18:45
Speaker 1: implies that at least you know, one of them was
18:47
Speaker 1: lying or mistaken, and then all caught. Put George Brion
18:52
Speaker 1: on the stand.
18:53
Speaker 2: George Berry tessify. He said that I only met won once,
18:58
Speaker 2: And Mike colsun Is said, Patolcolah, I know way he
19:03
Speaker 2: lies all the time.
19:05
Speaker 3: So mister Elcott had put together an alibi defense with
19:08
Speaker 3: several witnesses, mister Melendez's girlfriend and her family, and they
19:12
Speaker 3: had been together that evening. And then in addition to that, though,
19:16
Speaker 3: mister Elcott had Vernon James to undermine the credibility of
19:21
Speaker 3: John Barrion and David Luna Falcon Right.
19:24
Speaker 1: But what happened when Vernon James is called to the stand.
19:28
Speaker 3: He takes the fit amendment. And it's an interesting sort
19:32
Speaker 3: of legal maneuver that the state makes because they tell
19:37
Speaker 3: trial council just a few days before the trial that
19:40
Speaker 3: Vernon James has made some statements that he committed the
19:44
Speaker 3: crime to his cellmate named Roger Mims. And so at
19:48
Speaker 3: that point they say, Vernon James needs to be advised
19:52
Speaker 3: of his rights because there's this other individual pointing to
19:55
Speaker 3: him as the person who committed the crime. So had
19:59
Speaker 3: they not had Roger Mimms and mister Elcott just put
20:03
Speaker 3: James on the stand, he could have extracted the information
20:06
Speaker 3: that he wanted to extract without having this weird fitth
20:09
Speaker 3: amendment issue be raised and James essentially being able to
20:14
Speaker 3: absent himself from the trial and not have to confess
20:17
Speaker 3: in front of the jury, and then sort of the
20:20
Speaker 3: dominoes fall, because then after Mims testifies, the state undermines
20:25
Speaker 3: his credibility by saying, oh, isn't this fortunate? You come
20:29
Speaker 3: forward a week before the trial and suddenly you know,
20:33
Speaker 3: this guy supposedly confesses to you.
20:36
Speaker 1: But unlike so many other police or jailhouse informants, Roger
20:40
Speaker 1: Mims wasn't testifying in exchange for anything. He said that
20:44
Speaker 1: Vernon James had said that he and Delbert Baker were
20:47
Speaker 1: lovers and had he was involved in his death. But
20:51
Speaker 1: since James had pleaded the fifth and he was a
20:54
Speaker 1: defense witness, Alcott could not offer the recordings or transcripts
20:58
Speaker 1: of the conversations with Vernon James, so the jury only
21:02
Speaker 1: heard this from Mims.
21:03
Speaker 3: Clearly they were not finding mister Mims credible because of
21:08
Speaker 3: this sort of he's so late to the game. And
21:10
Speaker 3: it was a really effective way to make sure that
21:13
Speaker 3: the jury didn't hear a confession from the actual the
21:17
Speaker 3: person who was actually saying that he had committed the crime.
21:20
Speaker 1: So it appears that you know, without Vernon James, and
21:23
Speaker 1: despite witnesses that testified the Falcon's grudge against you, Falcon
21:28
Speaker 1: had not been sufficiently impeached. So one, I understand you
21:32
Speaker 1: decided to take the stand in your own defense.
21:35
Speaker 2: Probably the worst mistake I made in my life, and
21:39
Speaker 2: it was against my attorney. He told me, one, if
21:42
Speaker 2: you take this stand, prior REGOs will come. But I said, alka,
21:47
Speaker 2: I did not do this. I wondered you just to
21:49
Speaker 2: know from my mouth that I didn't commit this crime.
21:53
Speaker 2: Since I didn't do it, everything that ahka come to
21:57
Speaker 2: me is going to be no that you ever been
21:59
Speaker 2: done in me deble place? No, did you know me
22:02
Speaker 2: to deb No?
22:03
Speaker 1: All right? But what did the prosecutor ask across you say?
22:07
Speaker 2: Did you committed i'm robbery before? Yes? I had. Did
22:11
Speaker 2: you ever carry going before?
22:13
Speaker 1: Yes?
22:13
Speaker 2: I had? But that don't mean that I killed in
22:16
Speaker 2: the debble.
22:17
Speaker 3: You know. Certainly, not having a prior conviction for robbery,
22:21
Speaker 3: having having been in possession of a firearm, those types
22:23
Speaker 3: of things certainly hurt him.
22:26
Speaker 2: I got real scared and I failed that I was
22:30
Speaker 2: in trouble. When I was in Trout and they showed
22:34
Speaker 2: the bloody crime scene photographs, and when the juniors saw
22:39
Speaker 2: that crime scene them pictures, they look straight to me,
22:44
Speaker 2: and I can see that hate in their eyes, and
22:48
Speaker 2: I know right then and then that I wasn't so big,
22:52
Speaker 2: big trouble.
22:53
Speaker 3: After mister Melendez was exonerated and some of the jurors
22:57
Speaker 3: were spoken to, you realize that there were some considerations
23:01
Speaker 3: in that jury room that don't appear in the transcript.
23:05
Speaker 3: Seeing those horrific pictures looking at Wan, he doesn't look
23:09
Speaker 3: like them, he doesn't speak their language, has a two
23:13
Speaker 3: foot high afro, and all of his witnesses are people
23:17
Speaker 3: of color. Someone specifically pointed out Juan's afro and how
23:22
Speaker 3: that influenced their verdict.
23:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's a really great point, lind And
23:26
Speaker 1: I think if you look at the history of Polk County,
23:28
Speaker 1: I mean, one year after this trial, they elect a
23:30
Speaker 1: known white supremacist as Sheriff Dan Daniels. This was a
23:35
Speaker 1: big problem in Polk County. So you finished the trial,
23:39
Speaker 1: do you remember when you heard that verdict?
23:41
Speaker 2: Ah me, that was something there, Betty, Betty, Betty inguadh
23:47
Speaker 2: that the whole will But at the same time, I
23:51
Speaker 2: was scared that same man, these people can kill me.
23:55
Speaker 2: And then I go back in the sale, I'm talking
23:58
Speaker 2: to it to all the dudes there, and then they
24:01
Speaker 2: telling me one with the dead enity, you might get
24:04
Speaker 2: publicity and you can show you innocent and get out
24:08
Speaker 2: of there. I may go. I will not give that
24:10
Speaker 2: advice to.
24:11
Speaker 1: Nobody prison lawyers. So after the verdict, you come out,
24:17
Speaker 1: you address the jury.
24:18
Speaker 2: I did make their judus angry because I literally called
24:23
Speaker 2: them racists right there, and I mean they've gone in
24:28
Speaker 2: there to both for life and death. That as I'm
24:30
Speaker 2: making angry a person that cooked for you, you can
24:35
Speaker 2: you can put some post in the food. You said
24:38
Speaker 2: what I'm saying. So I should never say what I
24:41
Speaker 2: said as I told the judus say I know the
24:43
Speaker 2: reason why do people found me guilt because all my
24:47
Speaker 2: witnesses were black. But I be back because I mean say,
24:52
Speaker 2: and in the name of Jesus, I be back. I
24:54
Speaker 2: was playing with my life, let's put it like that.
25:11
Speaker 2: It was the worst day in my life. I never
25:13
Speaker 2: forget the day. It was on a Tuesday, November the second,
25:17
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four. I got in there the nest jerday
25:22
Speaker 2: they executed the ten person. Now I'm super scared. I
25:26
Speaker 2: do not know the language that well, I do not
25:29
Speaker 2: know the process. I do not know anything about law.
25:33
Speaker 2: So I'm thinking they're kidding people here every week how
25:36
Speaker 2: long it's going to be before they take me. The
25:41
Speaker 2: first ten years, right, it was very rough. I'm telling
25:44
Speaker 2: your mammy. A lot of people have hanged themselves in there,
25:47
Speaker 2: what I was in there. So when my friend named
25:51
Speaker 2: Simon Rivera, he just hang himself and that hit me
25:55
Speaker 2: Rayal real real bear amago, thinking if he can do it,
26:02
Speaker 2: I can do it. So I'm going to tell you
26:05
Speaker 2: how they do it, exactly how they do it. The
26:07
Speaker 2: guy they call it Rona e Verna said, hey, may
26:11
Speaker 2: he's doing time in prison population, but he's not sending
26:13
Speaker 2: it to death. They get him out of there so
26:15
Speaker 2: he can do the work in the devil place. He's
26:18
Speaker 2: the one that suppliers with the two page, the two bros,
26:21
Speaker 2: the map in the boom, so you can clean yourself.
26:23
Speaker 2: But he also can supply you will the tool that
26:26
Speaker 2: you can take your life with. And he knows it.
26:29
Speaker 2: All you got to do is give him four post
26:32
Speaker 2: stamps or a packaging can, rolling paper, tobacco the cheap kind,
26:36
Speaker 2: and he will give you this tool. Maybe he do
26:39
Speaker 2: it because he need these items, or maybe he do
26:41
Speaker 2: it because he called himself assisting you, helping you he
26:46
Speaker 2: knows you when out of there, he knows that the
26:49
Speaker 2: road is hell. The two is real simple, he said,
26:52
Speaker 2: guy is plastic bag. You give him four stamps, and
26:56
Speaker 2: when the garden looking, he will swing that bag inside
26:58
Speaker 2: the cell. Take that bag, you twist it up. You
27:02
Speaker 2: make a rope, put the noose in it. Put the
27:04
Speaker 2: noose in your neck, throw yourself down, your dead, put
27:07
Speaker 2: you free. And this is what the demons used to
27:09
Speaker 2: tell me. Why why you don't why you got to
27:13
Speaker 2: go to all of this? You're supposed to be a
27:16
Speaker 2: Puerto Rican man as real match your man. Don't satisfy THEMN.
27:21
Speaker 2: Satisfy yourself. You say you didn't do it. So now
27:26
Speaker 2: I want to take this trip. So I tell that
27:28
Speaker 2: Rona to give me that gob is bad again four stamps.
27:33
Speaker 2: And when the guy would look, its wing the bag
27:36
Speaker 2: inside myself. I twisted, made the rope, put the noose,
27:41
Speaker 2: put the news in the rope, and I say to myself,
27:45
Speaker 2: I better lay loving think about this a little bit more.
27:49
Speaker 2: When I lay down, I may go. Almost immediately I
27:53
Speaker 2: fell in a deep de sleep, and then I started dreaming.
27:57
Speaker 2: Then I'm a little kid again that was raising the
28:00
Speaker 2: island of Puerto Rico. So here I am dreaming. Then
28:03
Speaker 2: I'm swimming in the beautiful Caribbean sea and believing, my friend,
28:08
Speaker 2: the water is warm, the sun was so bright, the
28:12
Speaker 2: sky was so blue, and the palm trees looked so good.
28:17
Speaker 2: It's a beautiful day. Then in this dream, I see
28:22
Speaker 2: four dolphins coming to me, A pair got on one
28:26
Speaker 2: side and a pear gant in another one. Then they
28:28
Speaker 2: start flipping and jumping like dolphins too. Amygo, I'm having
28:32
Speaker 2: a boat in there. Then I looked to the shore
28:36
Speaker 2: and he said, beautiful lady waving at me, throwing kisses
28:40
Speaker 2: at me, and she seems so happy. She's happy because
28:45
Speaker 2: I'm happy. That's my mother. Then I wake up and
28:48
Speaker 2: that was one of the most beautiful dreams in my life.
28:52
Speaker 2: And right today, if I'm depressed or I get kind
28:55
Speaker 2: of angry about something, I started thinking about the dreaming
28:58
Speaker 2: in this go away. Every time I got kind of depressed,
29:02
Speaker 2: and every time I think that the war was going
29:04
Speaker 2: to end up on me, they created the beautiful dream.
29:08
Speaker 2: And I was wise, God them, that's a sign and
29:10
Speaker 2: hope that everything is going to be all right.
29:14
Speaker 3: Wow.
29:15
Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say other than to
29:18
Speaker 1: recognize that eventually everything was all right. And even though
29:22
Speaker 1: it took a long while, long enough for you to
29:25
Speaker 1: learn English from your fellow inmates, we're all so grateful
29:29
Speaker 1: that you decided to fight your case. Linda, Can you
29:32
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about the fight that was
29:34
Speaker 1: ahead of him?
29:35
Speaker 3: In Florida? At the time when mister Melendez arrived on
29:39
Speaker 3: death row, there was no state funded defense system. It
29:44
Speaker 3: was all run through volunteers, and so there were tended
29:48
Speaker 3: to be delays and getting people attorneys, and if there
29:51
Speaker 3: were delays in starting the process, there were going to
29:54
Speaker 3: be delays in executing people. So that seemed to be
29:58
Speaker 3: a big motivator for the Florida lifelegislature to actually fund
30:01
Speaker 3: an agency to represent people like mister Melendez.
30:05
Speaker 1: And that agency was called the Office of the Capital
30:09
Speaker 1: Collateral Representative, where you eventually worked. Now, given what we
30:13
Speaker 1: know about the evidence in this case, can you give
30:15
Speaker 1: me some kind of idea about why they were able
30:18
Speaker 1: to deny his appeals?
30:19
Speaker 3: Sure, so, the attorneys at that time did what they
30:23
Speaker 3: believed they needed to do. They requested records, they spoke
30:26
Speaker 3: to the trial attorney. They put together what's called the
30:29
Speaker 3: thirty eight to fifty motion, which is a motion to vacate.
30:32
Speaker 3: And at that time they had some fairly good information.
30:36
Speaker 3: They certainly did indicate that Vernon James was a suspect
30:41
Speaker 3: in the crime, but they didn't have anything all that
30:44
Speaker 3: different or new from what was presented at the trial
30:48
Speaker 3: through Roger Mimms, So that appeal ended up in a
30:51
Speaker 3: summary denial. What is also remarkable on direct appeal is
30:55
Speaker 3: that Justice Rosemary Barquette, in her dissent, believed that the
30:59
Speaker 3: death penalty should be dismissed because she thought the evidence
31:04
Speaker 3: of guilt was so weak that it shouldn't substantiate a
31:08
Speaker 3: death penalty. So I do think that that is also
31:11
Speaker 3: really telling that when that justice reviewed his case that
31:15
Speaker 3: she made that comment.
31:17
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, the lack of strength in this evidence wasn't
31:21
Speaker 1: enough to make a difference. And there's another problem. Wand's
31:25
Speaker 1: appellet attorneys didn't have the recording or transcript of the
31:29
Speaker 1: trial investigator's interview with Vernon James, and he had passed
31:33
Speaker 1: away by then, right.
31:34
Speaker 2: He was maurder two or three years after I was
31:36
Speaker 2: in dev Roue, you know.
31:38
Speaker 1: But it does seem that all roads still led to
31:40
Speaker 1: Vernon James. So there was more investigation done and an
31:44
Speaker 1: evident Sherry hearing was held in May of nineteen ninety six.
31:48
Speaker 1: So what happened there?
31:50
Speaker 3: Five different witnesses testified at that Evidentry hearing, four of
31:54
Speaker 3: whom said that Vernon James had confessed to the crime.
31:58
Speaker 3: And then also John Barrant testified at that hearing and
32:02
Speaker 3: said that what he had said at trial wasn't true.
32:05
Speaker 3: All of those witnesses, other than one who was John
32:08
Speaker 3: Barrion's attorney at the time of his trial, all four
32:12
Speaker 3: of the witnesses were dismissed as being not credible.
32:16
Speaker 1: You know, this has just got to be so frustrating.
32:18
Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like an arbitrary and very subjective
32:21
Speaker 1: way to be denied, you know, especially in light of
32:24
Speaker 1: what was about to be revealed in this case. Linda,
32:28
Speaker 1: you're now working Jan's case along with Martin McLain, who
32:31
Speaker 1: you later opened to practice with, and in two thousand
32:35
Speaker 1: you were preparing for a federal habeas When there was
32:38
Speaker 1: a pretty significant discovery.
32:40
Speaker 3: Made, we decided we were going to just start talking
32:44
Speaker 3: to witnesses again, and one of those individuals was the
32:48
Speaker 3: trial investigator Cody Smith, and we also wanted to speak
32:51
Speaker 3: to mister Alcott, who at that time was a judge,
32:54
Speaker 3: and so we contacted Judge Alcott and it was during
32:58
Speaker 3: that conversation where he said that he may have some
33:02
Speaker 3: files that had not been disclosed previously to counsel, and
33:07
Speaker 3: so Judge Alcott allowed Cody Smith to go to his
33:11
Speaker 3: storage center and lo and behold. Within that storage center
33:15
Speaker 3: surfaced four tapes sort of those old cassette tapes, and
33:20
Speaker 3: a paper copy of a transcript of an interview with
33:24
Speaker 3: Vernon James back in nineteen eighty four, and mister James
33:28
Speaker 3: had stated that he was president at the time mister
33:32
Speaker 3: Baker was killed, and it was two other individuals that
33:35
Speaker 3: had actually done the killing and the robbery, and mister
33:39
Speaker 3: Melendez was not one of those people. So we started
33:42
Speaker 3: really taking from that information a whole new investigation about
33:47
Speaker 3: Vernon James.
33:48
Speaker 1: Right, and that led you to Marty Lake, the man
33:50
Speaker 1: who had been convicted of killing Vernon James, which then,
33:54
Speaker 1: of course led you to five more witnesses.
33:57
Speaker 3: Two of whom saw mister James on the night of
33:59
Speaker 3: the murder at a motel the Scottish Inn in Auburndale,
34:02
Speaker 3: and one of whom saw Vernon James almost immediately after
34:06
Speaker 3: the murder and said he was covered in blood, and
34:09
Speaker 3: she helped him find clothes he could wear, took him
34:12
Speaker 3: over to the motel, and to both her and another individual,
34:15
Speaker 3: he confessed that he had been involved in the murder
34:18
Speaker 3: of mister Baker. Ultimately, what we found out was that
34:22
Speaker 3: not only did Vernon James confess to multiple individuals with
34:25
Speaker 3: whom he was friends related to dating things like that,
34:29
Speaker 3: he also confessed to several people in law enforcement, including
34:33
Speaker 3: the state Attorney investigator who had seen him the week
34:37
Speaker 3: before mister Melendez his trial, and he had actually told
34:41
Speaker 3: him that he had been there when the murder was committed.
34:44
Speaker 1: So it's hard to imagine a world in which Hardy
34:47
Speaker 1: Pickard didn't know this while he was trying to send
34:50
Speaker 1: Wand to death row, or while he fought to keep
34:53
Speaker 1: him there. I mean, he didn't retire until two thousand
34:56
Speaker 1: and nine.
34:57
Speaker 3: Well, Hardy Pickard had remained with the case all of
35:00
Speaker 3: the post conviction proceedings, so he was present at the
35:05
Speaker 3: second post conviction proceeding when John barry And testified and
35:08
Speaker 3: the various witnesses, and ultimately what he testified to at
35:12
Speaker 3: our proceeding in two thousand and one was that he
35:15
Speaker 3: had had a copy of this statement at the time
35:17
Speaker 3: of that hearing, and he did not reveal that to
35:20
Speaker 3: the court, and he did not reveal that to defense counsel.
35:24
Speaker 1: Right, So he was admonished by that, but by the
35:26
Speaker 1: judge later on. And he also said something that you know,
35:30
Speaker 1: David Lunafalcon had nothing to gain by his testimony, when
35:33
Speaker 1: that wasn't true either, right, correct.
35:35
Speaker 3: You know, it became clear that he had been working
35:37
Speaker 3: with law enforcement. They were using him quite extensively in
35:41
Speaker 3: drug transactions. He was paid for his testimony. He had
35:45
Speaker 3: a grudge against Swan and mister Pickard had made it
35:48
Speaker 3: seem at the trial like if he was getting paid,
35:51
Speaker 3: it wasn't a significant amount. And the fact that they
35:54
Speaker 3: protected Falcon in relation to his criminal conduct, you know,
35:57
Speaker 3: it just kept coming out a little little piece. But
36:00
Speaker 3: by the end of this it was very clear that
36:03
Speaker 3: Falcon was not a credible witness. He had quite a
36:05
Speaker 3: lot of motive to be involved in this case and
36:08
Speaker 3: to testify against mister Melendez.
36:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, and really there's like zero accountability for this obviously.
36:15
Speaker 1: I mean, Hardy Pickard went on to continue to prosecute
36:18
Speaker 1: people still had similar problems Brady violations that he was
36:22
Speaker 1: dealing with in later cases, and yet there's never anything
36:25
Speaker 1: done about these prosecutors.
36:27
Speaker 3: I mean, as Judge Fleischer, who was the judge at
36:30
Speaker 3: our hearing, found, there was quite a bit of evidence
36:33
Speaker 3: that was suppressed, but there was also rules that were violated,
36:37
Speaker 3: discovery rules, cases that were clear black letter law that
36:42
Speaker 3: mister Pickard was calling in witnesses and to his office,
36:45
Speaker 3: taking swarm statements from individuals, and then not disclosing his notes,
36:50
Speaker 3: even though those notes may have had exculpatory information, they
36:54
Speaker 3: may have had impeachment evidence in them, which Judge Fleischer found.
36:58
Speaker 3: And so when I look at Fleischer's order, it's clear
37:02
Speaker 3: to me that there's more going on here than just
37:05
Speaker 3: an inadvertent I forgot to, you know, disclose a particular
37:09
Speaker 3: piece of documentation. It just seemed like, even from the
37:13
Speaker 3: way that Mims, Roger Mims surfaces on the eve of
37:16
Speaker 3: the trial, there was just a pattern of behavior that
37:20
Speaker 3: was designed to me to win this case rather than
37:23
Speaker 3: to see that justice was done here.
37:26
Speaker 1: But the good news is that eventually justice was done.
37:31
Speaker 1: On December fifth, two thousand and one Judge, Barbara Fleischer,
37:35
Speaker 1: vacated Wan's conviction and granted a new trial, and then
37:40
Speaker 1: the state decided to drop the charges.
37:43
Speaker 2: They took the handkofs off of me, the chains over
37:46
Speaker 2: my foot. They offered me sola, and they offered me
37:49
Speaker 2: a hamburger. I don't want to hamburger. I mean, I
37:52
Speaker 2: just want to go back to myself, back everything and
37:54
Speaker 2: get the hell out of here. That's what I told her.
37:57
Speaker 2: So I want to say bye to my friend. His
37:59
Speaker 2: name is Gladden here. So I got tear this running down.
38:02
Speaker 2: I got to smile. He smile and me, see, don't
38:06
Speaker 2: forget about us. And now I'm gonna lie you, amigo.
38:10
Speaker 2: I hit a clap, then I hit another clap, and
38:14
Speaker 2: then they start bagging the bars and whistling. The gods
38:17
Speaker 2: got angry, told them to shut up, to be quiet.
38:21
Speaker 2: They didn't stop. Who I got out of there. They
38:22
Speaker 2: was real happy to see me go.
38:24
Speaker 1: Well, I just want to talk about you know, what's
38:27
Speaker 1: life like for you? Now? How is this whole experience,
38:30
Speaker 1: because it had to be life affecting. How has it
38:33
Speaker 1: changed your life?
38:34
Speaker 2: Well, man, mago, I feel right today that my time
38:37
Speaker 2: got is spending their role. All the suffering and pain,
38:40
Speaker 2: it was not for nothing. He's a purpose for it.
38:43
Speaker 2: And I still got this trench to go around and
38:47
Speaker 2: speak against it their penalty. And the reason I do
38:49
Speaker 2: it is because what happened to me, I don't want
38:52
Speaker 2: it to happen to nobody else. We don't need a
38:55
Speaker 2: law like that. We know better, we can do better.
38:59
Speaker 2: We don't need it.
39:01
Speaker 1: Can you just talk about like where listeners can go
39:04
Speaker 1: who care about wrongful conviction, who care about the death
39:07
Speaker 1: penalty to support these kind of causes. There any places
39:10
Speaker 1: that you recommend.
39:11
Speaker 2: Oran inzations like winness do in and saying any anything
39:15
Speaker 2: type of little organization they need help. That's good to help,
39:18
Speaker 2: But the main thing is to talk to lays. Later,
39:22
Speaker 2: teach people to talk to the lay's ladel the law
39:24
Speaker 2: make us. They're the one that can change these things.
39:27
Speaker 1: Well, we'll have witness to Innocent linked in the bio.
39:31
Speaker 1: And now we've come to the portion of the show
39:33
Speaker 1: called closing arguments, where I first thank you both for
39:37
Speaker 1: joining us today, and now I'm just going to ask
39:39
Speaker 1: you for your final thoughts. So let's start with you, Linda,
39:42
Speaker 1: and we'll close it out with Wan today.
39:45
Speaker 3: Well, I would just say that I think that generally
39:48
Speaker 3: people should understand that there can be things that happen
39:52
Speaker 3: in the criminal justice system that need to be fixed
39:55
Speaker 3: or repaired. Those things do happen, and we have to
39:59
Speaker 3: take steps to fix them and not feel so sort
40:04
Speaker 3: of entrenched in the injustice that we can't say that
40:08
Speaker 3: that was wrong or this mistake was made, because I
40:12
Speaker 3: do think that unfortunately, as an example in Wan's case,
40:15
Speaker 3: that may have been part of the reason why no
40:18
Speaker 3: one wanted to say that there was a problem here.
40:22
Speaker 3: So I would just ask people to keep that perspective
40:24
Speaker 3: that mistakes do happen, and you have to be open
40:27
Speaker 3: minded enough and we have to have the law be
40:30
Speaker 3: flexible enough to fix those mistakes.
40:34
Speaker 2: First of all, I want to thank all of you
40:36
Speaker 2: for doing this, and one thing for inviting Linda to
40:38
Speaker 2: do it. I go around and speaking about against it
40:42
Speaker 2: the penity, because like I said before, I want this
40:45
Speaker 2: who happen to nobody. I also want people to understand
40:50
Speaker 2: that when they execute someone, then executing the same person
40:55
Speaker 2: that committed the crime the secuting somebody else. I learned
40:59
Speaker 2: this when I was in their role, because I've been
41:01
Speaker 2: with them and I saw how they change, and believe
41:04
Speaker 2: me me, amigo, people do change. I've seen it. It
41:09
Speaker 2: changed for the good. They got some people in there
41:11
Speaker 2: that I'm not going to say, let them out. It's
41:13
Speaker 2: some people there that could meit some crime that you
41:18
Speaker 2: cannot forget the victims, the family, but you don't have
41:24
Speaker 2: to kill them. The same people that I'm talking about
41:27
Speaker 2: that the community's crime can also become mentors because they
41:32
Speaker 2: can teach others not to become like there was. They
41:35
Speaker 2: can teach the ones that we know we got to
41:37
Speaker 2: let them go to become a better man in the outside.
41:42
Speaker 2: The penalty, like they say in Puerto Rico, it's just
41:46
Speaker 2: a waste. Don't bring nothing. There's more pain, more parable
41:50
Speaker 2: damage all over. One of the worst things for me
41:53
Speaker 2: when when I was in their row, is when they
41:55
Speaker 2: secus someone I'm in the sale next to me. It's
41:59
Speaker 2: another person that I know for ten or fifteen years.
42:02
Speaker 2: He cries in my shoulder, I cries in his. His
42:05
Speaker 2: share with me and him was intimatus. I share mine
42:08
Speaker 2: with him. And one day they snatch him over there
42:10
Speaker 2: and I know exactly what's going to happen. And my
42:12
Speaker 2: time was the electric chair. They kill forty two before
42:17
Speaker 2: I left. They got to generate the share with electricity
42:21
Speaker 2: because it's two ten bulls. They got to go to
42:23
Speaker 2: the body in order to getting killed. So we can
42:26
Speaker 2: hear the nosy sound and we know precisely the time
42:32
Speaker 2: when they kill him because the light bulbs they go
42:37
Speaker 2: off and off. It's no movie. They do go off
42:39
Speaker 2: and off because all that power got to go and
42:42
Speaker 2: that share. And now I'm telling you me a nego
42:46
Speaker 2: when that happened, nobody saying nothing. It's just like a
42:50
Speaker 2: side like going to it that you're going to buy
42:53
Speaker 2: yourself in the cemetery. That's the only time is requiet
42:56
Speaker 2: there when that happened. They they're penalty is racist, It
43:01
Speaker 2: don't deter crime. It's quel and unnecessary. It costs too much.
43:06
Speaker 2: But the most important thing that people need to learn
43:09
Speaker 2: is this. Any state that have any contrue that have
43:12
Speaker 2: it always will be a risk to execute an innocent one.
43:17
Speaker 2: We always can release an innocent man from prison, but
43:21
Speaker 2: you cannot, and I repeat, you can never release an
43:25
Speaker 2: innocent man from their grade.
43:35
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host,
43:38
Speaker 1: Gilbert King. I'd like to thank executive producers Jason Flohm
43:42
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wurders for inviting me to be here. I'd
43:44
Speaker 1: also like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Annie Chelsea,
43:47
Speaker 1: Lyla Robinson, and Jeff Cliburn. The music in this production
43:51
Speaker 1: comes from three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be
43:55
Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on
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Speaker 1: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Po, and on Twitter at wrong Conviction,
44:02
Speaker 1: as well as Lava for Good. On all three platforms,
44:05
Speaker 1: you can find me on Twitter at Gilbert Underscore King,
44:08
Speaker 1: and you can listen to my podcast Bone Valley from
44:11
Speaker 1: Lava for Good wherever you listen to podcasts. Wrongful Conviction
44:14
Speaker 1: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association
44:18
Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one