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What Work Really Looks Like for Women in 2026 · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willis, and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a working mum with over 17 years of equipment experience, and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women Job Board and Community.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: In this show, I'm honoured to be chatting with remarkable women, redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_03: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, their boundaries and balance, the challenges they face, and how they've overcome them to find their own version of success.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_03: Shy away from the real talk.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: We cover it all.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_03: Think of this as coffee with your mates, mixed with an inspiring TikTok, sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: Make sure you're cozy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams or just survive Mondays.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: This is the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_03: This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: Ready to find your perfect job?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: Search their website at investinginwomen.co.uk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: Now, back to the show.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_03: Hello and welcome to the first panel for our International Women's Day Summit, where we're going to be talking a bit about the findings of our women at work survey and what the data is really telling us.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm delighted because in this session we are joined by some absolute powerhouses.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_03: We've got Dr.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: Helen Jenkins, who's a partner at Oxera Consulting.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: So she's going to be bringing the economic lens to what the findings of our survey have told us that over 500 of you completed.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you so much for completing that.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: Rebecca Jenkins, um Rebecca Jones, sorry, who is head of research at Working Families, which is a charity that I know many of you will have come across, I know many of you will have gone to for advice when navigating your own working lives around parenthood.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_03: And Georgina Wicken, who is the Chief People Officer at Paul Re, which is a large reinsurance firm based in the city.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_03: I know she's hugely passionate about gender equality as well.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you so much, all of you, for joining us today.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: And thank you so much to everybody that is watching the panel live and um or is watching it on the replay, and also to everyone that has completed the survey as well.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's really important that you um you know that we try and get as many people's views as possible.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: So just a bit of an overview about the findings and what it told us.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure many of them the findings won't be a surprise to you at all.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_03: And then we're going to be asking the panel for their views.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_03: So, in terms of the people that completed it, um, the vast majority of people were parents that completed our survey, um, many of whom were parents of young children or school age children.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_03: And the vast majority of people actually worked as well and worked full-time that completed our survey.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_03: Almost 50% of you are working full-time.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um and current work setup, most people are now actually working in a hybrid way, either hybrid or remote that completed our survey.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: So 54% work hybrid, 28.8% are now remote, and um 17.2% are office-based, which is quite interesting because we obviously hear a lot about the return to office mandates, but actually, of the people that completed the survey, not um not as many of you are actually full-time in an office.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and in terms of how valued you all feel at work, um, and that was really interesting.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: I put the QR code as well, so you can all download the survey um if you scan the QR codes, you can have a look at the results as well while we're talking.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, sometimes most people sometimes feel valued at work.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and actually, this may come a surprise.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: The second one was that um people often feel valued at work.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_03: So 39.45% feel sometimes valued at work, um, and 29.3% are often valued at work, which actually tells us that a lot of workplaces are doing things right and are making people feel valued.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but obviously there was still quite a large chunk of people that don't feel valued at work as well.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, um, and then how manageable is your workload?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_03: That was that was the interesting one because a lot of people I think feel a bit stretched in their workplace.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: So um 32% of you felt that um that your workload was quite challenging.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I think we can all relate to that.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: There just never seems to be enough time in the day.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas 40% manageable, but um about only 9.9% of you felt that work was very manageable.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: So it goes to sort of say there may be a bit of a mismatch there in you know, in terms of workload and how people feel that they're coping.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um do you feel that you have opportunities to grow and develop in your role?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um and that was interesting as well because um the vast majority of people either felt quite neutral about it or disagreed.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: So although people felt generally quite valued or often valued, it feels that there's often a lot of you feel that you've maybe hit a feeling where you're currently working as well.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_03: So you know, the 26.4% of you disagreed that you felt that you have opportunities to grow and develop in your role, and 24% felt quite neutral, um, with only 23% actually agreeing that there was opportunity to develop in your role.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_03: So it's quite an interesting mismatch there as well.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um do you feel that your workplace genuinely supports women at different life stages?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: So that again was quite interesting findings as well.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_03: So um, yeah, 25% of you agreed with that, that your workplace genuinely supported women at work.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um but the majority actually disagreed with that.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that could be obviously different life stages, motherhood, menopause, and caring.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um and again, the stress level at work was also really high.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of you reported feeling often or sometimes fairly stressed at work.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think no one said never.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: We might have had one person that said they never felt stressed at work, so I think we'll all be applying to that person's workplace.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_03: But what does contribute to your stress at work?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: And this probably won't come as a surprise considering um earlier answers that it was workload, that would come out really high for people, followed by culture and management, and then pay or progression concerns, which I think just feeds into those earlier answers that people maybe feel that they've hit a ceiling wherever they're currently working.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um, in terms of though the flexibility, a lot of people did feel that their work was um pretty flexible.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_03: So that was quite good, and that was um that obviously shows quite a positive, um, a positive, you know, finding.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_03: Only 9% said their work was very inflexible, and then a smaller percentage of that said inflexible.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_03: So um, but in terms of the flexibility that people currently have, it's predominantly remote or home-based working, followed by flexible start and finish times as well.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and the biggest difference that would make a diff a difference to people's lives right now is that remote or home-based working, which you know goes against what these return to office mandates are saying, um, you know, what certain politicians are saying as well.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um actually, that does make a massive difference to the women that completed our survey is that remote home-based working, followed really closely by flexible start and finish time.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: So it's not necessarily that I don't think that people want part-time.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we had 27.8% said they'd like part-time.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's just that more autonomy on their day is coming out in terms of the findings, that flexible start-finish time and flexibility about where they work as well.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_03: And for those that aren't working, the biggest barrier they felt to returning to work right now was um was the lack of flexible roles and the lack of suitable opportunities as well, which I think feeds into obviously that thing that the people that are in work, a lot of them maybe feel they're not in suitable roles if they feel they've hit that ceiling as well.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: I think the survey is definitely coming out that a lot of people feel there is this glass ceiling that they can't get through.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um and um have you previously left a role due to flexibility lack of flexibility or support?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um most people um said no.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but it was it was pretty half and half though.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_03: It was only just so 52% said no, they'd not left a role um due to lack of flexibility.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_03: 47.1% yes.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_03: So I guess if they didn't want flexibility, people tended to do socket to help.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_03: But what would make it easier for you to return to work?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um the majority said flexible working, so hours part-time autonomy, followed by remote and work from home opportunities.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and those that aren't working by choice, um people that said they weren't working by choice, the majority wasn't through due to care and responsibilities, but 86.7% would like to return to work, paid work in the future as well.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and what would need to change for them to um for work to feel viable or attractive again would be greater flexibility um and seniority in roles as well, followed by unsurprisingly remote and work from home opportunities.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um and if employees change just one thing tomorrow, what should it be?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_03: And that would people overwhelmingly said that to have true flexibility as the default.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, and that's a real brief overview of the findings.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um obviously, as some people, you know, you can download it, scan the QR code, you can download the survey.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_03: If anyone's got any comments or questions about their survey results, please pop them in the comments.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_03: Hopefully you can hear us all okay.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_03: But we will dive now into the questions.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, thank you so much for joining me today, everybody.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um so first question is to you, Rebecca.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just gonna move my questions here if that's okay.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_03: So our survey found that a significant number of women have previously left a role due to lack of flexibility or support.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_03: And the top barrier um returning to work is simply the lack of flexible roles.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: What I know that you do a lot of research within um working families.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_03: So, what does your research tell us about why the gap between workplace policy and lived experience remains so stubbornly wide?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you so much.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: That resonates so much with our experience as well.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in our working families index, we found that one in five working parents said they've left a job because it wasn't compatible with their caring responsibilities and significantly more women than men.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that's despite the widespread availability of flexible working policies.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that underlines exactly your point that there is still this gap.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um we get nearly 1,500 calls a year from people calling us saying exactly that they've had issues around flexible working requests, discrimination, unfair treatment just for asserting their rights.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's clear that although the policies are there, it's not always happening.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one of the reasons we think that happens is although employers generally have a commitment to flexible or family-friendly working in many cases, we don't always see this being applied consistently across teams.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we do a survey of best practice employers who are our members every year.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, even amongst those employers who are really fully committed to family-friendly and flexible working, they often identify gaps in line manager capability and confidence as one of the biggest barriers to ensuring that kind of consistency of flexible working across the organization.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Some line managers are obviously brilliant, they just make it happen.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Others might know less, they might just not have understood the importance of flexibility, they might feel overwhelmed for whatever reason, it's not necessarily being applied straightforwardly.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we think there needs to be a kind of structural recognition of the need for flexibility everywhere.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we've just launched a family inclusive workplaces certification, for instance, that's designed to do exactly that kind of standardise it across the board.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: But we also need that kind of individual line manager confidence to know what they're doing there as well.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: Brilliant.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: So I can see we've had some questions.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: So we will come back to some of the questions um towards the end of the panel if that's okay, Rebecca.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_03: But thank you so much for asking your question.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, Helen, our survey respondents are overwhelmingly clear that flexibility makes them more productive, more loyal, and more able to contribute.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yet return to office mandates are you know accelerating.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, what does the economic evidence actually say about the business case for flexible working and why isn't it always landing with those organizations?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um thanks, and thanks very much for the invitation to participate today.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: Fascinating topic.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, most of the high quality research on flexibility is a lot about where people work.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: So, this point about hybrid versus remote versus in-office.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that evidence does definitely show that hybrid working improves certainly improves employee outcomes.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like the outcomes for the for people are improved retention, improved um, you know, happiness report, uh lower stress levels, you know, a lot to do with just, as we all know, taking the commute out of your day, the days that you're at home, being able to schedule things around that so you can then be focused uh in the office.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um definitely no negative productivity um effects and some evidence of improvements overall in productivity as compared with full in-office environments.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: There um evidence on full remote is more mixed, saying actually there is evidence of more negative impacts on productivity, especially over a bit of time.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: So while the initial impact of full remote can be quite positive or and no imp for the individual and no impact overall, I think the evidence does suggest hybrid is is the best combination for both people and and their employers.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, the what really works is when it's task appropriate.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: So when you can structure your office-based work for collaborative, connected work, and your home-based work for more focused work.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think this connects to one of the points I thought was interesting in the survey, where in terms of what people were saying what made them stressed at work, and culture management was one of those.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I think some of the difference can be you act, as we're discussing, you need people to employers to have thought quite carefully about what it means to have hybrid work, to put in place some simple structures to make that work, to give some guidelines about how that collaboration in the office focused work at home.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I think where that doesn't happen, then you can get um you might might not get the good outcomes that we are seeing in in the literature.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, that bit of building in the support to management, to know that these things can work, and what are the simple ways to make them effective, I think that would that could be a way of bridging, bridging this challenge to continue that hybrid working arrangement.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: Now, obviously, not all roles are suited to hybrid working.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, but actually what's interesting is there are a lot of roles that actually can work that way.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: So we've had an interesting question from Sarah, which I think actually may be answered by Georgina in our next question to you.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um our data, Georgina, shows that even when flexibility formally exists, many women describe it as existing in theory but not in practice.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: There's raised eyebrows, career penalties, which I think did come out in the um the results, and a cultural stigma attached to using it.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: What does it actually take?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I know this is something you're really passionate about, to shift that culture from the inside.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks, thanks for having me on, especially on Well Booked Day.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure there's a lot of parents that have been juggling the chaos of outfits and costumes as well as rushing into the office and working.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it felt quite um timely to be doing this this morning.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, I I think from my side, it's definitely that piece around leaders.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so the signal from the top.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I think most companies these days will have the correct policy in place, but it's not really around a policy that's written, it's actually the signals that come from the leaders, um, so that you can actually feel and see that um visibly the flexibility is okay.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: So whether that's reduced hours or remote days or caregiving leave, whate whatever it may be, depending on the circumstances, you're not having to apologize for it.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and leaders are openly accepting it and ideally doing it themselves, um, so that as another member of the staff, you can see them doing it and you can see them role modelling it, um, and it's it becomes non, you know, as you've mentioned in your kind of um feedback from the data and not frowned upon.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think we need those people that are doing it to be kind of held up as heroes rather than the frowned-upon approach that potentially is happening still in some places or has has happened.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think there's also kind of a conversation about redefining performance away from visibility.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's not around you're being assessed for being present or being present in the office.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that kind of I think in the old narrative can definitely be leaded, kind of led to your commitment and whether you're available equals how kind of committed you are potentially to the company or the role.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, we need to kind of redefine that and move away from that type of language and really understand that it's much it should be much more kind of evidence-based on what you're doing in your job and and how your output is rather than being present in an office or how many hours you've been at home versus uh in the office, say for example.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and as I say, I think a lot of that comes from the top.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: If you can get kind of managers or senior leaders that um are doing that and don't just kind of talk about it, but actually role model that I think that kind of has a really good distribution throughout the company.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: And sadly, I think a lot of companies find that middle managers are actually the kind of the blocker.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: So people are doing this at a potentially a more junior levels, the senior staff, the very senior staff are kind of um talking about it and being very open about it.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um but that middle manager seems to be a kind of a blocker where people are feeling like they're trying to potentially get their career back on track post-childbirth, um, post-caring leave, or potentially pre-it, um, and are really kind of feeling slightly out of control.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And from a management perspective, they're kind of balking down and thinking, right, if I'm present, if I'm in the office, if I'm working all the hours, um, all of these kind of things, promotions and next steps and salary increases and everything else will come.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas actually, if we can kind of train those managers to talk about the benefits of flexibility and promote it and give permission to staff and protect the people that need it, I think that will open up another wave of kind of flexibility that's really needed within the workplace.
• 20:27
  unknown: Interesting.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's that insecurity, isn't it?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: That actually I think people sometimes overdeliver, and that obviously can lead to burnout for a lot of people as well.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, Rebecca.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: So the data shows care and responsibilities are one of the top drives of stress at work, yet most of that caring is invisible to employers.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: How do we move from a system that treats caring as a personal problem to one that treats it as a workforce issue?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, that's obviously caring for elderly relatives as well as children.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think that is such an important question.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like we urgently need to move to seeing caring as a societal issue, it's not a personal issue, it can affect absolutely any one of us, um, men as well as women.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's something we all need to be able to manage across our working lives.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and when it's not planned for at that kind of societal and organizational level, people are left to manage it informally and personally, and then it's shocking to see in your survey results the high level of stress that caring responsibilities are contributing to, um, and people leaving the roles because of that.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we I think your survey data shows really loud and clear that that women want their employers to see flexibility as an essential.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a perk, it's not an add-on, it's part of our working lives.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think it's important as well to recognise that that can happen for any employer.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm thinking in particular about SMEs.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we've just been working as part of a research project looking at the transition to parenthood in SMEs and smaller employers.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it's clear from that that even the smallest employees can and really do support parents and those with caring responsibilities effectively, but this might be in different ways.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it might be more informal, it might be more individual.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: They might face different challenges.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what we need to move to is recognising, if we recognise that caring responsibilities affect everyone, and flexibility can mean something different for everyone as well.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be one size fits all, it can be what fits the individual, what fits the employer, what um will make a good balance of their needs.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: But making sure that there is something there for everyone when they need it.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um Helen, our survey respondents, I'll just move it here, are overwhelmingly clear that flexibility.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: Oh sorry, we've done that one.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_03: Helen, many women in our data describe doing a full-time job in part-time hours, absorbing the workload without a proportional reduction in expectations.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: From a productivity standpoint, what's the real cost of that to organisations and our employers measuring?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_03: I think we all know we all know that we have so many people that are just shoehorning from full-time into part-time.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that that makes a lot of people speaking to candidates quite nervous about taking part-time because they worry that the workload's not reduced.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe just building on um Rebecca's answer to the question before, which is you know, like where you've got pressures outside the work life, which is what is putting pressure on, you know, that you want the flexibility, which can be where you work, how long you work.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think my answer to that question is men need to be involved, childcare, caring.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that you know, there's some interesting research which may indicate how we how we build that, but um I think that is one of the big answers, as long as that is seen, and that's a long-term change program, right?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: That women are not seen as solely the people who need to bear that responsibility because there are only so many hours in the day, right?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so, unless you actually share the responsibilities, you won't completely get away from these challenges in the workplace.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's not it's not completely a workforce problem, right?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's a social problem with a workforce problem on top of it.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so if we come to this question of productivity, it's quite complicated, right?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: Because there are only so many hours in the day.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: Now, the analysis absolutely confirms that workers who work part-time are more efficient in the hours they work, right?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's been interesting studies of like what people do and how much and that and it's put down to people being, I mean, you know, we all know very focused.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: You come in, you lose the chat, you you go like, I'm gonna be in and out.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: I need to get everything done.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's also put down to people being less tired, you know, which is not always the case if you're uh if you're balancing lots of home and caring responsibilities.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: So whatever's going on underlying it, that evidence does show that for the individuals, they're more productive in the hours they work.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: But it also shows that there are costs to organizations in um managing more part-time, you know, the transition costs.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: And that sometimes those costs go on the individual, like the handover, the coordination, the additional work, the thing where you forgot to tell someone something and it becomes important and you're getting a call on your non-working day.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: And um so so it is there is a a bit of a trade-off there, and there are some, I wouldn't actually, I'm not sure of the vibe how reliable the stats are, which say, you know, organizations with more than 30% of their staff, part-time, blah, blah.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's very dependent on the organization for those types of stats, about that balance between full-time and part-time work.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: But I think the other bit that's really important, and and perhaps I don't know what the um demographics are of the women who've responded to this survey, but there are very different patterns of part-time work between um the white-collar professional where businesses are retaining key skills, and then the more part-time, zero contract hours, um, lower skilled workforce.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: And the experience of part-time workers can be quite different depending which it's quite bimodal, the evidence between those two types of part-time workers.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's not it's like 40-60 in terms of women's part-time work.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: 40% are in that um white-collar group, 60% in the um lower skilled work.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what it it certainly shows is one of those points you you raised before that part-time work is definitely correlated for women in keeping them in jobs that offer less opportunities for skill development and advancement.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: So part of what goes in that part-time wherever you are in the in the distribution, is the time for the business to invest in you.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I think I think it is it is really tricky that whole that whole picture.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, getting some more balance across the gender groups would certainly help.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um to because because at the end of the day, you know, when you're you're doing your job in shorter hours, try as hard as you are can to be as productive as you you will be, you don't have time to do to to do everything um that you might want to do.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, brilliant.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: So, Georgina, a theme that comes through loudly in the open text responses is that part-time workers are rarely considered for progression or internal moves, which I think just leads on to what Helen was said.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_03: As a people leader, how do you tackle the assumption that ambition and reduced hours are mutually exclusive?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's so sad to hear this is um still the case in this day and age.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, obviously those facts are out there.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think as a people leader, as you mentioned at the beginning, I'm really passionate about this and wherever I've worked and will continue to work, I think it's it's a matter of talking to the um exec and senior leaders around what these assumptions are.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um so things like ambition equals long hours, um, you know, that's that's just such a kind of an old-fashioned way of thinking about it.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Luckily we don't have a culture like that here, but I think if companies do, someone needs to be kind of talking up and speaking like that, that it's not um that that these kind of uh assumptions need to be removed.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: But in order to remove them, you actually have to discuss them and then kind of pick them out and work out what's going on and and how you can kind of dismantle that.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I also think you probably need to talk about um behaviours and outcomes.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, what is it you're trying to get from your particular people, um kind of traits like being hungry, driven, keen, all of these kind of words that are battered around, which potentially could disadvantage part-time workers or flexible workers.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's actually, you know, shift the definition to things like a kind of the behaviours and the outcomes that you want to see from them and from the role that they're doing.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because those types of words aren't kind of descriptive of what you're trying to actually get out of someone from a productivity basis.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: So making it much more explicit around what is it, what is it, what's the criteria that we'd be looking at in order for someone to get a promotion, um, what's the kind of definition of talent and the next step up in this particular role, and look at all the frameworks and the kind of the leadership frameworks that we're acquiring in the business rather than just um you know, he or she is hungry, or they're they're really driven, or you know, they're going to be great in the future, but kind of really kind of understand what it is you need for each role and the steps and have those kind of open conversations because um there's absolutely nothing to say that someone working flexibly or part-time couldn't take that next step up.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think also uh having the option to be really open with staff.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: So if there's ways that you can kind of uh like flag these stats, put them on the internet or even maybe kind of the website, um but talk about the promotions, your promotion rates of part-time versus full-time workers, um progression, internal mobility, all of these types of things and performance ratings, whether that's purely from a kind of internal basis of giving uh people that are working part-time or flexibly the option to see that and see that people are still or potentially aren't and kind of calling it out, but the more flexibility, I'm sorry, the more open you are, I think, around these stats internally can really kind of help drive a better decision and outcomes when it comes to making these promotions.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then also from a kind of HR perspective, I think talking to the individuals that are working part-time and give them the kind of confident language to have those conversations with their managers so they don't need to say that they're working part-time, but they can just be kind of reduced hours but not reduced impact, or um my ambition hasn't changed, but just because I'm working you know part-time, my working patterns change, but my ambition hasn't.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then getting them to feel confident to talk about the scope of their outcomes rather than the fact that they're now part-time.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I think kind of helping the individuals to really kind of think about the language they use can also just give them a bit more confidence when they go into those meetings around promotions or end-of-year appraisals.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: Rebecca, so single parents, carers for elderly relatives and women with health conditions also have seen our data as particularly underserved.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: Do you think employers are getting better at thinking intersectionally about working women or we're still designing flexibility about one narrow archetype?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm so glad that your data raised those points.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's so important, and that's where we need the conversation with flexibility to be moving.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we hear that consistently too, that as you raise all those groups on our helpline, um, they're the ones who often will need a particular kind of flex, might need, say, ad hoc flexibility, the caring needs increase, for example, and often that's where they're really struggling to get that met.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we know it can happen though.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, employers can certainly kind of, if they're aware of those barriers and think about again, think about job design, think about the kind of flexibility you're offering.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: It absolutely can be done, and the best employers do do that.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: I was actually at an event yesterday with um an SME employer.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think he said he had about 35 employees and they offered 28 different um working patterns across those employees.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it goes to show it really can be done.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: You can really kind of listen to your employees and what they need.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think the evidence suggests there is still though that kind of issue out there in terms of really recognising the barriers that people might face.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I mean, even beyond the groups that you mentioned, for instance, we know fathers, going back to Helen's point actually, fathers often feel there's a kind of barrier, they feel nervous about asking for flexibility because they don't fit the mould of a working mum, and that has knock-on effects for both parents, of course.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's some research by the TUC and the University of Kent found that black workers fear disproportionately consequences, negative consequences for asking for flexibility.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, again, those kind of barriers there in the first place that employers really need to be considering.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's not enough just to offer flexibility.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to make sure that everyone feels they can access it in the way that works for them.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, Helen, the survey shows women are leaving roles, turning down opportunities, or opting out of the workplace entirely because the math simply doesn't work.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we've, you know, we've known about this for a long time.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_03: So childcare commuting, rigid hours.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_03: How should organizations be framing that talent loss in economic terms to make the case for change internally?
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's interesting that in your survey there's actually a bit of a difference between those who are in work who actually say we're quite happy with the flexibility that we have.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: So there's like a selection thing potentially going on.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then those who are not in work looking for work, who are struggling to find roles that have the flexibility.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: Now that, you know, like you need to do a bit more work to work out what what exactly is going on underlying those results.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: But of course, right now we do know there are many challenges out there in the labour market.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: So it could be that those currently not in work definitely are struggling to find the types of roles that may exist uh in in the workplace.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, as we're hearing, you know, we know they're not they're not perfect.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we know the changes to national insurance um here in the UK affected part-time work, the you know, the economics of part-time work for businesses, and there's a very difficult labour market right now.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, your survey probably didn't pick up too many younger people, but young women, you know, we know that this is like one of is is a very challenging time for people to find work.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I think um, yeah, it's it you've got a lot of competition out there, out there for roles.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I can imagine um this is this is really tricky.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: Women returning to work do have a lot of skills to offer to employers, um, but but that challenge, you know, that challenge is really real.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um one thing I just wanted to add, just as a more general point about, because here we're we're talking about how hard it is and the challenges that women women face in in what can combining working and caring, the need for flexibility.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: But um just as a happy moment on this sunny London morning, there's a study that was done over 29 countries.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: It was it was done in 2015 but has had some updates uh by one of the big U US universities, which um focused on the biggest change coming uh for to drive women in um joining the workforce comes from the social learning of mothers and the influence they have on their children.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: So everyone listening, if you're a working mum, you are having a good influence on your kids.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: And the results showed that the daughters of working mums were more likely to work and be in leadership roles in organizations, and that their sons were more likely to be involved in domestic and household caring responsibilities.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: So that social learning that we uh we exhibit every day by showing how you can balance all these complex things, you know, on the days it's really tough, just think about that you're paying it forward to the next generation as well.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I like that.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Helen.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_03: I think a lot of people probably needed to hear that, particularly on today when I know a lot of people have been doing like the World Book Day, and there's obviously a lot going on.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: Just think your son is gonna watch that and think I'm gonna help my partner in the future.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: Going back to the theme of how do you how do you get that balance to change?
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, Georgina, if you could point to one concrete change, not a policy, but a cultural or structural shift that has made a measurable difference to women's experience at work, whether it's a poor re or one of the other employees you've worked at in the past, what would it be and why?
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think for me, um, not kind of groundbreaking, but I think um the option to work from home and have this flexible working with regards to hybrid working.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: When I first had my children and everyone was in the office all the time, it just wasn't a done thing when I asked to work from home.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: It was completely absurd.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my boss even used to say, Oh, you're not working tomorrow.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I am working, I'm at home, but it just wasn't a thing.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: So post-COVID, you know, this has become this flexible option for everyone, irrespective of any kind of caring need or flexible request, is just allowing you to have that flexibility, which I think is is massive for parents, for families, and for carers, but also for non-you know, people that don't have those responsibilities as well.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: So um I think this has made a huge difference.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I would say culturally, to have um to be in a company where it's done regularly, as I've mentioned before, but people in senior roles doing it from the top and really kind of showing it is okay.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay to flex your day to start later, finish later, or start earlier, finish earlier, or work from home, or whatever you know your need is, but to be kind of not just saying it, but actually doing it, um, and role modelling that and allowing it just becomes the norm and it's part of the culture.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a really big piece and it's definitely made a difference to me as a working mum, but also I think to everyone around us.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the other one I'd say is is when it kind of does come to things like promotions, um really being very kind of honest about what it is you're looking for, um, and at end-of-year appraisals and everything else being really kind of measured and very descriptive about these things so that women um or men working flexibly or part-time don't feel they're being overlooked for it.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: So promotions and progression decisions should be really kind of evidence-based and no kind of um anything that could kind of kind of exclude anything that's mentioned kind of flexibility or working part-time or returning mothers or anything kind of around um this flexibility piece, so that it's purely based on the evidence of what they've um achieved in the year gone or or what their kind of potential um opportunities could be for them in that role and how they could grow into it.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think being really kind of evidenced based on these can help kind of remove any conversations that could um could just not be factual.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um Rachel, we will look at the link.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_03: So we've had some questions, I think we've covered some of them in the question as we've gone through the questions, but any we haven't, I'm gonna uh just do a quick fire to our lovely panel.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um so if you've got any questions, we've got about five minutes left for questions, so please pop them in the comments.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'm going to ask um you, Rebecca, because I think you may know this.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_03: We've got another Rebecca that would like to know.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you've ever found this in your studies or surveys, if British women, by and large, have been pleased with the DE and I initiatives in their in their workplaces.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um do you think that it's had a positive impact on their lives?
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know that from the data.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'd be interested to know if if that came up in your survey as well.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but certainly sort of thinking more broadly, I think um, and perhaps as sort of Helen was just suggesting in her previous answer as well, I think that like when women we speak to often feel there has been a big shift in terms of what's offered.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so thinking about kind of flexibility, family-friendly working, there uh there has definitely been an improvement.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say there is still such a long way to go.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: These things are inconsistent and they're often too often one size fits all.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think um just thinking from what we hear on the helpline, I would say it's that next piece of the puzzle around well, making sure that everyone has access to the same offer, um, and also particularly women with caring needs, um particularly not getting the kind of flexibility that really enables them to stay and work.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: We've had speaking with partners recently, we've heard so many stories of women having to leave the workforce altogether, particularly with children with uh disabled children, for instance.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I think yes and no would be my answer to that.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_03: Georgina, Sarah has asked, do you think the new flexible working regulations will genuinely shift workplace culture of flexible working or?
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'd like to say yes, I hope so, but obviously I appreciate that all companies are different.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um I yeah, I think for companies that aren't making that change, um I would hope that there's someone, you know, ideally obviously an HR that can kind of push out that culture, but but if not, um potentially an EDI working group or or just some individuals that can kind of hold the mirror up and say, why are we not doing what we need to be doing, and kind of point out um the obvious facts around um the negatives for not doing it, um, and the amount of workforce and retention, um, turnover, all of those kind of things that will really affect that company if they're not.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I I hope it, I obviously I you know really hope it kind of does make a difference.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: And if it's not, I would hope that there's people brave enough to call it out and and people at the top, as you know, senior leaders that that have got the option to make these changes to kind of listen and stand up and and demonstrate that they are willing to take it all the way.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_03: Helen, I think this leads on to some what you were asking earlier.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_03: Amy has asked, do you think companies are missing out on talent by not offering flexible roles from the outset?
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: The job market is tough right now, but are candidates still holding firm, do you think, on flexibility?
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think as I said earlier, it's really mixed.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it depends what type of flexibility um you're talking about.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think for younger people right now, um I mean it's not that I have the it's more anecdotal.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think people are taking whatever job comes and whatever the conditions are, and uh, you know, it's it's quite brutal out there.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, in terms of uh that part-time work, I think the those where you be higher skilled, either through education, experience, whatever, I I think there is still scope for people to be um requesting and receiving flexible um flexibility for those roles.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: Perhaps it is harder for those where the job itself, you know, I think the balance is shifting back towards the employer determining those um those criteria.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I think as Georgina just said, it's it's potentially quite short sighted for employers not to recognize the importance of drawing from the full talent pool and all the additional skills, which has been shown time and time again, that people build through balancing the complexities of life with a lot of additional responsibilities in it.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: Sadly, I do think that with short-term pressures, people fall back to worse practices.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I wouldn't be surprised that we see over the next little while, you know, some challenges.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_02: So people entering, entering the workforce.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: But I think overall there is a lot, a lot more flexibility in people's everyday lives.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: And that's, I think, because many organizations want to retain people.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's a little bit that in if once you're inside, you can get that to work.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: But where you're trying to knock on that door, it can be very challenging, I think.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_03: I've got a final question actually for you, Helen, if that's okay.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's for me actually.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um and we've got a panel later on about AI and women and what that means for the future of women in work.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_03: But I'd be interested to know, obviously, we've talked a bit about the job market.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_03: Are you optimistic about the job market over the next five years and women's role within that?
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's a very good question.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_02: I nearly mentioned AI at one of the earlier answers, but thought, oh no, no, no, don't let's not open that can of worms.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think this is one of the, you know, the other thing that Oxera actually works a lot on in terms of outreach for women's in the workplace is is STEM work.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, whatever it was 10 years ago, it or less eight years ago, it was like saying women get engaged in computer science and all those things.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: What's interesting is that AI is shifting that to um you're not needing as to actually be a coder because now the AI are better coders than most coders out there.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think that engagement with the technology, I think that is is super key for people because it will be influencing most jobs in the next five years.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: Now I'm I think overall I'm relatively optimistic about the need for humans in the things that we do every day, but it's humans who know how to use that technology.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's the thing to be focusing on.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, as a woman with a lot of things on your plate, like finding time and carving out that time to not not leave that to others, you know, that would be that would be a top tip is take take carve out that time now, fight for it with your employer to to have the flexibility to learn about that um now, um, to to be able to take advantage of the even likely more flexible options that will come come over the five years ahead.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_03: Do you know I'm gonna leave it there because I think that's brilliant advice, and I think that is I love that is actually just taking some time out to invest in yourself, invest in your learning, invest in your growth.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think that is just brilliant advice.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you so much, Helen, Rebecca, and Georgina, for joining me today, and thank you so much to everyone that has watched, has asked questions, and that has done um that has um completed the survey as well.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_03: We couldn't do it without you.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you so so much to everybody.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_03: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_03: And don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_03: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willet and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_03: You can also follow my recruitment site, Investing in Women, on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_03: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dream.