Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / The Story of the Original Rockabilly Cat — Carl Perkins [Episode 238]

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The Story of the Original Rockabilly Cat — Carl Perkins [Episode 238] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

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  Speaker 1: Who We're totally booked rock and roll, I mean gotta
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: leave you. You're reading. Little Hands says it's time to
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: rock and roll, Rock roll out, I totally booked.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome back to book don Rock, the podcast for those
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: about to read and rock online at booked on rock
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  Speaker 2: dot com. Every episode there in both audio and video.
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  Speaker 2: Exclusive video segments from episodes. Blog the latest rock book releases,
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  Speaker 2: and check out the all new Booked on Rock store
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: at Booked on rock dot com. Author Jeff After is
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  Speaker 2: back for his third appearance on the podcast. He's just
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  Speaker 2: released the book Carl Perkins, The King of Rockabilly, The
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  Speaker 2: definitive and fascinating biography of the musical trailblazer who wrote
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  Speaker 2: the classic Blue Suede Shoes and was the influence behind
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  Speaker 2: countless other legendary hits, a rock and roll legend in
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  Speaker 2: his own right, and the original rockabilly cat Carl Perkins.
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  Speaker 2: The artists that are primarily covered in this podcast classic
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  Speaker 2: rock artists and bands from the mid sixties through the
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  Speaker 2: mid nineties. They are standing on the shoulders of the
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  Speaker 2: giants before then, including this man, Carl Perkins, a true pioneer,
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  Speaker 2: a groundbreaking guitarist, singer and songwriter Paul McCarty once said,
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  Speaker 2: if there were no Carl Perkins, there would be no Beatles.
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  Speaker 2: Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash, Tom Petty, Bob Dylan, Eric Clapton,
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  Speaker 2: and Jimmy Hendrix performed and recorded his songs and became
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  Speaker 2: Carl's friends, collaborators, and champions. We'll find out about Carl's
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  Speaker 2: early life in Tennessee, how music came into his life,
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  Speaker 2: his rise to prominence, along with the many tragedies in
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  Speaker 2: his life, including a fateful car crash that stalled his career.
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  Speaker 2: Find a playlist of Carl Perkins in this episode's show notes.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome back, Jeff there.
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  Speaker 1: Rick Cooy's a pleasure. Thank you very much for having
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  Speaker 1: me back.
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  Speaker 2: We were talking before we started recording this book for you,
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  Speaker 2: because I was telling you I didn't know much about
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  Speaker 2: Carl Perkins, and you said you didn't know much about
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  Speaker 2: him either. This project came to you. Tell me about that, right, Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: I knew.
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  Speaker 1: Look, I knew the basics. I knew about the Beatles' relationship.
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  Speaker 1: I knew about blue suede shoes, I knew about his
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  Speaker 1: relationship with Johnny Cash, I knew about the rockabilly session.
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  Speaker 1: You know that stuff, which is you know, the Mellion
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  Speaker 1: Dollar quartet, But really that was that was my understanding
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  Speaker 1: of Carl Perkins. What happened is that I'd written a
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: book about Keith Urban, which we spoke about a while back,
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  Speaker 1: and it was picked up by a US publisher, and
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: typically the author publisher relationship there's a bit of a
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: dance goes on when you've had a book that did
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  Speaker 1: quite well. Typically the author goes time to strike and
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: I'll come up with five or six ideas and the
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  Speaker 1: publisher will look at them all and go I didn't
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  Speaker 1: realize you're actually suffering from mental problems. In this case,
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  Speaker 1: it was totally different. My publisher said to me, hey,
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  Speaker 1: what do you know about Carl Perkins? And I repeated
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  Speaker 1: what I've just told you. I knew the outline of
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  Speaker 1: this story, but not much more. And they said, would
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  Speaker 1: you be interested in writing a book? And I guess
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  Speaker 1: I'm at the point of my career where ten years
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  Speaker 1: ago I might have gone, look, I'm not sufficiently qualified
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  Speaker 1: to do this, But now I know about understand about
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  Speaker 1: the potential of research and just the simple curiosity I
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: wanted to learn more too. And then you know, simple,
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  Speaker 1: someone's going to pay me to learn more about a
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  Speaker 1: guy I'm really interested in, and in exchange, I have
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  Speaker 1: to write a book. It sounds like a pretty fair
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  Speaker 1: deal to me.
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  Speaker 2: It's not a bad gig.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And you know, the next twelve months were
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  Speaker 1: spent really digging into this guy's life story, which you know,
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  Speaker 1: I found out to be this remarkable roller coaster. It's
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  Speaker 1: you know, it's I think it should be a streaming series,
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  Speaker 1: a musical, and I don't know a podcast as well.
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  Speaker 1: There's so much stuff there, so much heartache, so many successes,
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  Speaker 1: so many stepbacks, so much tragedy, and ultimately, you know,
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  Speaker 1: this guy gets the dus that he deserves, gets them
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  Speaker 1: later in life, so, you know, in a weird way
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  Speaker 1: to feel good story.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, he came from meager beginnings too. He's working on
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  Speaker 2: a contemplantation and back in the late thirties, I think
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  Speaker 2: it was like three teen years old when he's working
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  Speaker 2: a day and night. And we'll get to all that.
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  Speaker 2: But were there any songs that you didn't know from
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  Speaker 2: him that now as you're writing this book. I'm sure
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  Speaker 2: you listen to a lot of his music, like you
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  Speaker 2: have any particular songs you're a fan of. Matchbox is great,
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  Speaker 2: of course blue sweede chews, but some really good.
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  Speaker 1: Stuff mid career stuff. You know, he was he recorded
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  Speaker 1: for Son, then he went to Colombia, and then he
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  Speaker 1: was bouncing between smaller labels. He did a really good
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  Speaker 1: record called Country Boy's Dream, which is just basically sort
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  Speaker 1: of semi autobiographical. It's about him and there's great family
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: shots on the cover of the record. I think his
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: parents appear on the back cover. There's some stuff. There's
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  Speaker 1: one song he wrote in the seventies called The Trip,
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  Speaker 1: which is not quite as psychedelic as it sounds, you know.
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  Speaker 1: There's another one called State of Confusion, which is almost
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  Speaker 1: almost social comments stuff. You know, the deeper you dig
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  Speaker 1: because he recorded a lot. I mean, this is a
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  Speaker 1: guy who spent a lot of time in the studio,
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  Speaker 1: made a lot of music. Once you get beyond the
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  Speaker 1: early rockabilly stuff, which most of it's pretty well known.
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  Speaker 1: You know, of course, blue sweite shoes and pink petal
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  Speaker 1: pushes and the Beatles stuff, Matchbox, everybody's trying to be
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  Speaker 1: my baby, honey drunk. Once you get into the mid
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  Speaker 1: career where he's he's really pushing the boundaries a lot.
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  Speaker 1: And of course he also wrote Daddy Sang Bass, which
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  Speaker 1: became a monster hit for Johnny Cash, you know, and
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  Speaker 1: I write a bit about the inspiration for that, how
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  Speaker 1: it came out of Will the Circle Be Unbroken? You know,
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  Speaker 1: that old gospel song that Country People Tend, Country Acttended,
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  Speaker 1: and the songs, and there's shows with I've seen it
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  Speaker 1: played a dozen times, you know, at the end of shows.
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  Speaker 1: So there's stuff like that that I knew in a
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  Speaker 1: lot of cases by the cover, not by Carl's original,
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  Speaker 1: you know. So it was interesting to really try.
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  Speaker 2: To That's interesting, right because I always thought Blue Sweede
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  Speaker 2: Shoes was an Elvis song.
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  Speaker 1: Right there you go, There you go. So you know,
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  Speaker 1: he was a really solid songwriter who probably didn't quite
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  Speaker 1: get the propers he deserved for that, but someone who
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  Speaker 1: continued to record, you know, right through much to the
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  Speaker 1: end of his life. So there's a big body of
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  Speaker 1: work there. But I'd recommend having a look around late sixties,
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  Speaker 1: early seventies. He did some really interesting one off stuff
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: then none of them no hits, but some really really
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  Speaker 1: interesting and quite unexpected stuff. There's a song I always
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  Speaker 1: go back to Restless that he later recorded with Tom Petty.
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  Speaker 1: It's just one of my favorite songs of all because
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  Speaker 1: I understand what it's like to have itchy feet.
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  Speaker 2: You know, if that's on Spotify, because I always put
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  Speaker 2: together a playlist, if that's on Spotify, I'll include it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny. My favorite version is the one he
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  Speaker 1: did with Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers for a tribute
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: record for Kyl called gok Go. That's just great and
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  Speaker 1: you can just the fun they're having in the studio
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  Speaker 1: or they're recording that comes through on the recording. It
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  Speaker 1: just sounds like a bunch of guys just having a blast.
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  Speaker 1: And you know, ultimately, I think that's maybe what Karl
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  Speaker 1: was always hoping for, you know, because he got stuck
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  Speaker 1: into some weird studio situations where it was he was
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  Speaker 1: uncomfortable with it a bit. It's somewhere it was, you know,
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  Speaker 1: quick and nasty in a lot of cases. Orthough, he
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  Speaker 1: was probably more suited to that than he was when
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  Speaker 1: he went to Columbia and there's a lot of musicians
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  Speaker 1: surrounding him. He's being four spared material to record, and
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  Speaker 1: it's really not sitting comfortably with him. You can tell
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  Speaker 1: later on once he gets in the studio with Tom Petty
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  Speaker 1: and the Heartbreakers or gets on stage with them, as
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  Speaker 1: he did at the film All when they did that
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  Speaker 1: twenty night run. I think in the late nineties, just
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  Speaker 1: the reverence, the way he's treated on stage by these guys,
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  Speaker 1: and the way he locks into a groove with them.
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  Speaker 1: It's not like, you know, he's out the front doing
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  Speaker 1: his thing and they're just backing him up and they're
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  Speaker 1: really playing together. And the same with Dylan. He got
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: to play with Dylan one night when Dylan was in Jackson,
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  Speaker 1: and you can really tell, you know, the guys in
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: Dylan band as complicated as that relationship always was. If
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  Speaker 1: you've seen a lot of Dylan shows like I have,
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  Speaker 1: it feels like they're going, damn, why can't we play
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  Speaker 1: with this guy all the time.
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  Speaker 2: He's great.
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  Speaker 1: So yeah, he was really held in high regard by
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  Speaker 1: a lot of musicians. Probably maybe best expressed live perhaps,
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  Speaker 1: you know, I think maybe you know, when he got
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  Speaker 1: up just in front of an audience and just did
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  Speaker 1: his thing, maybe that's the best representation of Carl Perkins music.
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  Speaker 2: And from reading the book, you find out Carl grew
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  Speaker 2: up in meager beginnings. I grew up in the late
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  Speaker 2: thirties during the Great Depression. In fact, the first time
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  Speaker 2: he ever heard music that really moved him, he was
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  Speaker 2: literally working on a cart plantation in Tennessee. That story
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  Speaker 2: leads off chapter one, talk about his beginnings, his childhood,
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  Speaker 2: what it was like for him growing up.
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  Speaker 1: The idea of this kind of existence is just it
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  Speaker 1: sort of takes on almost like a mythic like quality.
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  Speaker 1: To me. I just know, very hard to get my
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  Speaker 1: head around how hard it would have been for him
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  Speaker 1: at that time. Yeah, it's a great story. He was
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: taught to play guitar by an African American guy, fellow
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  Speaker 1: cotton picker, you know, Uncle John Westbrook, who said, you know,
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  Speaker 1: he had a four string beaten up old guitar that
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: he gave to Carl. I think the story goes that
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: there was so much lacquer on the guitar from that
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: had been painted over so many times. It weighed a ton.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: They only had four strings, and the best advice he
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: gave him was do we say, just make sure you
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: bend those strings. Krly. It kept the rest of his life,
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: you know, But it's great, it's it's it's got this
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: kind of mythic quality. As you say, it's very It
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: feels like the script to a movie, you know, the
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: sort of rags to riches story. Yeah, and I mean
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: he was never cut out for education. I think he
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: left in the eighth grade, formed a band with his
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: brothers and went and played dude. I thought Australian pubs
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: in the seventies were rough. Okay, those roadhouses that Karl
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: And and a lot of other guys from that generation played,
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: and my gods, I thought they were just an invention
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: of the Dukes of Hazard, but then research and listen
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: to people talking about them. My god. You know there's
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: a story in the book where Carl just on stage
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  Speaker 1: and a woman just pulls out a gun and shoots
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: a boy frame right between the eyes.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Insane, insane, madhouse. But I think that's where he
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: he developed a style of songwriting there, because there's a
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: part in the book where he talks about he knew
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: he had to speed up the tempo of his songs
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  Speaker 2: to get people on the dance floor. So that is
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  Speaker 2: that really where he starts to He's kind of cutting
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: his teeth there doing doing the honky tonks. He also
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: listened to grand Ole Opry on the radio, so I
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: know he he learned songs from listening to the radio too.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean he's hearing Boo Monroe and you know
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: Western swing basically Bob Wills, guys like that. But he's
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: juiced in these songs up. You know, he's playing it
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: with his brothers and he realizes he had to play
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: it louder and faster to get the attention of all
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: these you know, basically the honky Tonks were I think
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: a night at honky Tonk would be a series of
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: bruels interrupted briefly by music. You know, That's pretty much
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: where it came down.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: Like the scene out of the Blues Brothers movie when
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: you're throwing them.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: But it felt really for me to me because I
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: know Australian pubs in the civities were really rough and
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: rowdy places where the bands had to play louder and
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: harder to get heard and to get it noticed by
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: the audience. And this is with the type of venues
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: that produced ACDC in Excess, Midnight or all those great bands.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: So while I'm writing this and thinking, you know, describing
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: these home kit times, I'm thinking back about my upbringing
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: in these pubs and it was very very similar. You know,
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: these places were rough, but if you played well, and
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: you played loud and hard and fast, you typically got
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: the attention of the audience and won them over, and.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: That pade him back.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but just the descriptions of some of these
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: places where they'd bolt the furniture to the floor so
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: it didn't get hit, used as a weapon, you know,
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: just crazy, just really really crazy stuff. But it was
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: a great upbringing. You're absolutely right, And you know. The
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: turning point. I think it was nineteen and fifty four
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: and he heard Elvis's version of Blue Moon of Kentucky
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: on the radio, which Elvis had juiced up as well,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: and Carl's wife out a turn and said that's you
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: and he said, I wish it was. So that was
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: a real turning point for him because he realized, hey,
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: someone else is doing this too, you know, maybe it
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: has commercial potential.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: Podcast we'll be back after this, BAM the future. Yeah,
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: his story with Elvis, they're like neck and neck until
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: he gets into that car accident. I didn't know about that,
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: so that's interesting. We're almost at that point. But let's
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: talk about the first song he wrote, which is about
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: a girl he liked in school and he told the
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: story to Paul McCartney. You include that story in the book.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: Martha Fay Johnston was her name.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The song was called was to Take Me to
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: the Movie mag you know. Yeah, it's just it's a
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: it's sort of a Hank Williams type song. It's quite sentimental.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: It's I guess it's a ballad, sort of Western ballad.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: He played it too. It was the first song he
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: recorded for Sam Phillips, and Philip played to Sam Phillips
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: and Philip's like, oh, it's okay, you know, but what
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: else do you got? What else you got? Let me
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: correct you? That correct me? There he went in and
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: they played a bunch of covers for Sam's yeah, and
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: Sam was like, do you have anything original? And he
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: played them take Me to the Movie Bag, which eventually
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: just became movie back, and he went that, I like that,
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: that's interesting. Come back with more of that stuff, you know,
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: give me something original. There's enough covers out there, you know,
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: everybody else is doing covers. We don't need another Hank Williams.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: And it's funny because, I mean, after they played these
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: covers to Phillips, and you know, he sort of he
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: sort of shrugged when they were playing them. They were
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: about to bail his brothers who were in his band.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Jane Clayton said well to help with him, let's go
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: and Carson to hang on, and they just played in
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: that one original. It was really a big turning point
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: because that got Phillips's interest because obviously Phillips want he
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: wanted people to have songwriting publishing deals with Sun Records
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: so he would have a stake in every record they
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: released commercially, smart guy, you know.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And hearing Blue Moon on the radio was
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: what inspired him to go.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: To He loaded up the Cadillac. It's a great story,
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: so Carl, because he had no idea about the music business,
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: I mean the music business. What the hell is this?
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: You know? And he was just playing honky tongs at
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: that point. So he loaded up the car with all
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: their gear, drove down because they found out where Sun's
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: studio was and where this music was coming from, drove down.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: The first mistake he made was parking in Sam phillips
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: parking spot, not a great IDEA. Second mistake he made
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: was maybe not calling ahead to let them know he
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: was going to come down an audition, and you know,
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: Marion Kisker, who's Sam phillips assistant, She's like, he's not here.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: You know, you're gonna have to go, and he said, no,
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: we're gonna wait, and of coause Phillips came in and
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: it's like, who's in my parking spot? What the hell
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: is this? And eventually was willing to listen to them
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: because he was on the lookout. You know, it's a
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: time Elvis's records are starting to take off, but Phillips
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: knows that Elvis isn't going to last long and he's
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: I think Johnny Cash had just joined the label, so
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: he was really on the lookout for new talent. And
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: eventually during that session he got wise to the fact
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: that Carl had songwriting potential and you know, great voice,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: great guitar player, surrounded by a good band. At that
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: point Flew Hollin, who ended up being Johnny Cash's drummer
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: for about one hundred and fifty years. You know, he
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: was on the kid, so you know, he was surrounded
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: by good players, and.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: His two brothers were still in the band at that time.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: Right, that's right, Yeah, yeah, Jay and Clayton.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you talk about songwriting potential. He writes a
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: song called Blue Swede Shoes. That's pretty good. That's pretty
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: good songwriting skills right there. That was his breakthrough single.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: It took a while though, that was a few years later.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: It was I think it was late fifty five. But
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: there's a couple of versions of the story. Carl, it
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: has to be said, would never let the facts get
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: in the way of a really good story. And I
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: say that in the best way possible. He was very
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: entertaining if you listen to interviews with him or watching
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: the interview, he's a very good raconteur. So his version
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: of events was it happened at one of the honky
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: tonks who was playing. You know, there's dancers down the
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: front and Carl's playing a set, and at the end
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: of a set, this guy dancing with his pretty girl
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: and he says, basically, well back off, don't try on
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: my swedes, you know, watch out for my shoes. And
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: Carl's reaction was, what the hell's wrong with this guy?
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: You know, he's got this beautiful woman and he's worried
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: about his shoes. But at the same time, there's a
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: story that Johnny Cash swears that he told Carl about
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: his time in Germany in the army when he met
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: an African American guy who was the sharpest dresser amongst
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: all the servicemen there, and he wore blue swede shoes,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: And Johnny swears that he told Carl this story. So so look,
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: it's probably a commingling of the two.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: Both great stories.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: Great stories. The story the idea for the song came
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: to Carl as he's driving home from a gig. You know,
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: he has nowhere to write the lyrics, so he scrawls
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: them onto a I think it was like a potato
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: bag or something. And one of the funny takeaways from
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: that is that he spelt Carl was not a well
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: educated in the classic sense kind of guy. I think
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: he spelt swede, s w ade or something like that.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: He kept the bag, framed it on his wall so
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: that all his visitors could go Carl spelling it needs
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: a bit of work, and I think Val has said
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: to his wife, said to Carl that there's great lyrics
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: he played the song, that you might want to work
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: on his spelling.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Where is that bag? I don't know if you mentioned
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: in the book is in the Rock and Roll Hall
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: of Fame, I.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: Think no, I think it's still in whoever's which of
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: family members in Carl's house now I think, but yeah,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: it should be in the Hall of Fame.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: March twenty first and eighteen fifty six, Carl and the
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: Perkins Brothers band Player show in Virginia. They head for
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: New York City for an appearance on The Perry Como Show.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: Carl is quoted in the book saying, I remember the
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: Chesapeake Bay Ferry, and it's the last thing I remember
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: for three days. What happened that night?
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Such a turning point. I mean, Blue Sways Choos is
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: getting really good response in I think, what did Phillips
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: call it a triple triple thread? You know, it's in
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: the R and B pop and I think also country chart,
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: So it's doing really, really well getting exposure. Carl's got
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: a booking on the Perry Como Show, which was in fact,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: the first nationwide show of that type, so and Elvis hadn't.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: I don't think by this point Elvis had even done
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: a show that had nationwide broadcasting. So you know, this
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: is a huge moment. Kyl could be the first of
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: these rockers to really get the biggest possible exposure, and
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: it would have sent blue suede shoes way over the top.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: It would have been an enormous hit. They have this
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: terrible car crash. They're in a hurry to they're driving
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: to New York, you know, typical thing. We'll play some
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: gigs on the way, and they had this horrible, horrible crash.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Carl comes away with a bunch of broken bones and
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: a real mess. You know, he's in traction in the hospital.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: But his brother Jays in even worse shape. He breaks
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: his neck basically, you know, it's an absolute tragedy. And
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Karl's convalescing in the hospital when he sees Elvis on
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: I think the Milton Burl Show, and he's that, damn man,
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: there's my opportunity gone. Because he knew that as soon
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: as people see Elvis from coast to coast, he's gone.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: Because as you said earlier, you know, Kyl didn't have
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: Elvis's sort of raw sex appeal. He wasn't. He was
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: a good looking rooster, but he didn't look like Elviss.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: His hair was thinning at a young age.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know, he was a country boy and
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: whereas Elvis, you know, he looked like he'd been sent
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: down from out of space, the dude with his incredible voice.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: And it's just interesting to know too. Elvis had the
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: number one single with Heartbreak Hotel. Right behind him at
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: number two is Blue Swede Choes Carl Perkinson, So her
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: neck and neck right there.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. See. And the you know, the theory
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: is that if Carve this accident didn't happen, if Carl
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: had gotten to the Milton Bill Show, sorry, the Perry
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: Como Show and Doney's Spot, he really could have you know,
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: you served Elvis, possibly at least for that brief time. Elvis,
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: mean while, has been talked into cutting a version of
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: Blue Swedge Shoes, which was the style at the time.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: If someone had a hit song, you went and did
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: your own version. You know, everybody was doing it. But
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: to his credit he said no, Yeah, he cut it,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: but he said, don't release it as a single. I
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: want my friend because they were friends by this point.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: He said, I want my friend Carl's record to get
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: every possibility it can, and of course he also knew
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: that Carl was laid up in the hospital. It took
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: a couple of months for Carl to get back on
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: back into action. But at that time, you know, nine
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: point fifty six, everything's moving so quickly. You know, everybody're
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: pumping out singles every couple of months. Television is starting
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: to have a huge impact. Radio is enormous. There's even
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: music media now. You know, you've got Billboard and cash
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: Box and these magazines. The mainstream newspapers are writing about
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: this thing called rock and roll. You know, you had
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: to be in the game to really keep up, And
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: unfortunately Carl was on the sidelines for a couple of months,
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: and it really put a huge crimp in his potential,
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: particularly the potential for blue suede shoes to become I
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: guess Rock around the Clock, you know that kind of size.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Even though it's still considered a rock and roll benchmark,
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: it probably didn't have quite the same didn't sell the
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: same amount as you know, A Heartbreak, Hotel, a Rock
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: around the Clock, A Great Balls of Fire, one of
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: those songs.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: His peers said it kept him from being as big,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: if not bigger than Elvis.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: Do you think, yeah, I agree, probably only for a
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: short period of time. I wouldn't I wouldn't think that
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: Carl was just cut from different cloth, you know. He
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: was more of a.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: He didn't have that management that Elvis had. The Colonel too,
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: like he did. The Colonel was really pushing to get Elvis. Yeah, yeah,
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Colonel was pushing for Elvis to get out there. He
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: was really working that angle with Elvis to get him
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: out there and promote him. So I'm not sure if
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: did Courl have a manager at the time.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: Was a guy called Bob Neil who was a promoter,
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: and but he looked after all these guys before they
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: became big. He looked after Elvis as well, before you know,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: the Colonel got his mits on him. But look, I
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: think Carl also acknowledged, accident or no accident. He acknowledged
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: that Elvis was a very different character to him and
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: had probably much greater, broader commercial potential. You know, Carl
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: did a couple of films, but he was never going
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: to be a movie star, you know. Yeah, although we
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: may get that later. He had one great cameo later
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: in his life that just to the same. You think, damn,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: he could have been a good character actor.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: That's right. That was in late seventies, early eighties. I
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: think he was in just one movie only.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: This movie called Into the Night. Yeah. Yeah, And actually,
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: if we talk about it now, it just kills me
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: because his big scene in the film, he's playing this
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: tough guy, this this thug basically, and he gets into
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: a knife fight with David Bowie's character. And I mean,
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: if you want to two people from completely different sides
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: of the cultural spectrum, you've got Ziggy Stardust up against
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: mister blue suede's shoes in a knife fight. I mean,
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: come on, what's the likelihood of that.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: You know, I've never seen a movie, never even heard
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: of it.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: It's great. Yeah, Jeff, It's one of Jeff Goldblooms and
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: Michelle Fife of his early movies. I think it was
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: it was a post Blues Brothers. It might have been
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: just post Blues Brothers, but it was a smaller project
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: and it was just sort of a it's a cult film.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: I think it's great. It's really and these musical and
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: filmmaker cameos throughout the film are amazing. It's like, every
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: second scene you go, isn't that that director? Hang on,
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: there's David Bowie, there's Carl Perkins. You know, it's really good.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: For Jeff after a new book out November twenty six
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: called Carl Perkins The King of Rockabilly. One led to
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: is falling out with Sam Phillips and Sun Records.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: It's like everybody else's money.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah simple.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: You know you've sold me in records and you're wondering
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: why am I still struggling to pay the rent? You know,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: Phillips had everybody on a three percent royalty, which is
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: really next to nothing. That's paying pennies on the dollar.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: Johnny Cash, meanwhile, had Elvis had already gone. He gone
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: to RCA Victor for you know, outrageous amounts of money,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: well what seemed like outrageous amounts of money at the time.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Johnny Cash had already been talking to Columbia because he
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: wanted he saw the limitations of Sun. I'm going to
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: keep in mind too, Son as renowned as an important
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: as the music that came out of Sun's studios in
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: the was it was a shoe string operation. You know.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: I remember going doing a tour of the studio and
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: That's it tiny.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: It's the smallest tour in the world because you stand
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: still and look at each corner and go, well, there
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: it is. I mean obviously it's more about the mood
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: and the atmosphere of the place, and you feel that definitely.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: But it's tiny, it's really really small. His records were
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: made on very small budgets. It wasn't like, you know,
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: thinking about Roy Orbison now, when Roy wanted to use strings,
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: well there was no string section in Sun Studios. I
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: can show you.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: Muscle Showls was like that too, tiny little building.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And so a lot of these guys felt
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: short changed as they all acknowledged Sam phillips role. You know,
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: without Sam Phillips, we wouldn't be talking about these guys.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: But they also acknowledged that, you know, he was doing
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: not doing them not a lot of justice financially, you know,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: they had the potential to make more money and the
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: major labels were reaching out to them already. So Kyl
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: ended up going with Johnny Cash and going to Columbia
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: for Better or Worse.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: Down Rock Podcast. We'll be back after this, never ever, ever,
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: under any circumstances, say I'll be right back, because.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: You won't be back. I'm getting out of the beer
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: you on one. Yeah, sure, I'll be right back.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: He was struggling to write a hit song under Columbia.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: By the late fifties, his popularity was starting to fade.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: He talks about his drinking being an issue at that time,
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: but it was a long time until he kicked that.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: But was that contributing to his decline commercially? Did it
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: affective songwriting?
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean he was pumping out a lot of
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: good songs. You know, if you look at Carl's back
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: catalog of music, you know, there's a lot of good
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: music from a lot of good songs from that time
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: that just because they weren't blue swede shoes, they didn't
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: have the same impact, you know. And he also he
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: wasn't like his music was being covered by a lot
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: of other people too. He ultimately developed into a really,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: really a great songwriter who's a lot of people want
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: to record his music. But at that point, you know,
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: he was trying to write hits for himself. And also
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: when he's working with Columbia, they're putting him. He's gone
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: from this this bare bones operation at son Too, you know,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: to quite a sophisticated recording environment, which didn't really suit
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: him either, and that was difficult for him. You know,
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: he really floundered. Yes, sure, he was boozing alight as well,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: still playing gigs. But you know, now he's third on
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: the build and nobody at the lounge, the Golden Nugget
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: in He's not even he's playing Vegas. He's not even
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: playing the big rooms, you know. So it's getting really
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: tough for him. And there's a point, you know, until
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: Johnny Cash comes calling that Carl was as good as
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: given up his brothers had you know, his one brother
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: had died, another one become an alcoholic. You know, it
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: was a real mess, it really really was. And Carl
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: was pretty much gonna say, Okay, maybe I should become
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: a farmer, you know, maybe I should go back, and
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: because it's put away enough money to I think buy
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: a small block of land, and was thinking maybe I
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: could just settle into a life a totally different world.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: You know, maybe music isn't for me. But you know,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: as happened throughout the rest of his life, someone came calling,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: you know, and in this instance it was Johnny Cash.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the Beatles too, to talk about that they
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: his career, big things.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: First, that's right. I think I went to the UK
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: in sixty three or sixty four, and little did he
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: know I mean, the Beatles to him, he knew a
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: little bit about them, he'd heard a bit of their music,
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: and that's at the point where the Beatles haven't quite
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: exploded in America yet. And when he got there his
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: first two of the UK's touring with Chuck Berry, and
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: you know, Carl's a few years past his commercial prime
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: at that point, and suddenly he's like a godlike figure
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: to these guys. You know, they got to meet Carl
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: Perkins and in fact, when he met them, they were
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: recording Matchbox if I'm not mistaken, you know, which was
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: one of I think three of his songs that they recorded,
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: and he's like, oh my god. You know, this was
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: a revelation that a lot of American artists had at
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: that time. People love me in England. I had no idea.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: You know, the Blues guys all got this experience when
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: they thought their career was fizzling out in the States.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: They go and playing the UK university college audiences and
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: people just love them. You know. The Beatles admired Carl
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: to the point that when they first started out one
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: of their first UK tours, George Harrison decided to re
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: christen himself Carl Harrison. He was slow in armaed of
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: Carl's guitar playing and songwriting, and eventually they became really
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: good friends. So yeah, it was a big liveline, you know,
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: and whenever a Beatle, whenever the Beatles would record one
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: of Carl's songs, I think it was something like fifty
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: thousand dollars in the bank and that was a lot
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: more than he'd ever seen from Sam Phillips. So you know,
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: he realized.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: Because of publishing, right, is that what you're talking about?
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, absolutely, And you know, just the simple
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: fact that the hottest band on the planet or the
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: soon to be hottest band on the planet is talking
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: him up. It really put back spotlight. Yeah, and I've
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: seen this, you know, doing research for this book and
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: doing other projects. How it happened continually with Roy Orbison
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: was another one. He went to the UK, and again
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: it was the Beatles that really loved him, and in
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: fact that's how he ended up wearing those dark shades
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: for the rest of his life. We'll get under that
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: in another conversation, but it's really I think it's really
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: interesting from an outsiders perspective as an Australian looking at
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: these great American careers and realizing what a big role
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: the UK played in keeping these guys or returning them
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: to the spotlight and really helping them maintain careers that
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: they might they thought was done and dusted. You know,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: they were playing like I say, third on the build
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: of Nobody on a Tuesday night, you know, for fifty
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: bucks or a dollar at the door, you know, and
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: a couple of years ago they you know, in Carl's case,
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: he'd had a multi million seller. You know, it's it's
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: a big That was a big slap in the face.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: It was a big Yeah. Those are great stories. Like
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Peter Frampton at the Rock Hall ceremonies talking about David
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: Bowie just talked about David Bowie and Bowie brought him
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: out on tour in the eighties when Frank was down
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: and out.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. He was also the glass spider to her.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, brought him.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: And every we're all going is that beata was he
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: doing there?
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: He was in the same spot. He's just ready to
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: call it, call it a career, and David Bowie helped
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: him out. So that that's what happens with Carl, with
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: the Beatles, also with Johnny cash, which we're about to
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: get you. But I want to ask about a book
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: that he read in the late sixties called The Power
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: of Positive Thinking. Was that the beginning of his road
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: to beating his demons with alcohol?
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: I think to a degree. I mean, that was such
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: a pop culture phenomenon back then, was it Norman Vincent Peel?
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: You know, I remember as a kid hearing the name
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: and thinking what the hell is that? And I was
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: sort of I was too young to really be part
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: of that zeitgeist, I guess, but I think it did
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: change his mindset. This is, you know, Kyl's looking for
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: solutions to his problems, and I think that book offered
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: them in quite easy to digest, bite sized chunks. And
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: I think he you know, the story I related about
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: everybody be on the tour of us having a great time,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: and he'd be there with his head in this book,
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: going maybe this is the solution to my problems, you know,
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: my drinking problems, my career problems, you know. So yeah, yeah,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: I think it was incredibly helpful. I'm not sure if
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: you or I read the book today whether we'd find
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: it as convincing as guarded in the late sixties. You know,
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: it's probably a bit trite and cliched now, but it was.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: It was at a time of self help becoming a
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: big thing, you know, and people admitting quite readily that
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: they're going into therapy, which certainly in the fifties wasn't
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: as commonplace. So yeah, yeah, it played its role, but
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: I think Johnny Cashes were about to get to he
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: played a much bigger role.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, talk about his working relationship and his friendship with Johnny.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: It's important to talk about because, yeah, like you said,
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: Johnny Cash was a huge help to collect.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, these guys grew up basically on the
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: opposite side of the Mississippi doing exactly the same thing
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: was working on in the cotton fields as well, you know,
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: both living hand to mouth, really poor circumstances. Cash, of course,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: it had the tragic loss of his younger brother when
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: he was a kid that really I think left a
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: huge scar and him emotionally for the rest of his life.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: Carl had been through some tough stuff with his parents
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: and his own family. They both recorded for Son, They
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: were both playing playing pretty much the same circuit, both
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: managed by Bob Neil at some point, and both split
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: for Columbia at the same time, Cash's career had prospered,
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: whereas Carl's hadn't, despite some really good recordings that he
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: did with Columbia that are worth checking out. I'll do
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: a playlist or something for you, but there's some really
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: good stuff there that really went under the radar. Anyway.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: The point is Carl's a mess. He's it's short, which
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: year it was, heading mid sixties. He's had an hunting accident.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: Carl is a little accident pro. He shot himself in
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: the foot, and he's at home. He's on the couch,
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: his foot's in the cast. He gone, what the hell
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: is with My career is done? You know, it's all
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: over for me. His records aren't selling, the gigs are
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: drying up. And Valda, his wife, said, I think Johnny
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: Cash's tour buses outside. Carl, what's the story. Don't be ridiculous,
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: you know, And there it was. Cash had heard that
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Carl was on hard, you know, doing it rough. He'd
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: had this accident. He just happened to be swinging through.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: I think Carl by this point is probably living in Jackson,
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: and he just drops in, Yeah, Carl, how are you doing?
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: Why don't you come out and play some shows when
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: you just wanted to, you know, just come on, play
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: a few songs, see how it feels. And Carl's I known, man,
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: I just rather wallow here in my misery. He said no,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: He insisted, he said, come on, just do one or
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: two shows. And you know, Carl got out and he
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: played a couple of songs as a guest on Johnny
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: and Johnny had this big road show at that time.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: You know, it's him, it's June Carter Cash, it's the
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: Carter family, it's the Tennessee three. I think eventually the
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: Statler brothers came along. You know, it's a road show.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: It's a big, big tour. And Carl really slotted in
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: brilliantly into that, because you know, here's mister Carl Perks,
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: mister Blue Swede. Choose he's going to play a few songs.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: And he did, and he enjoyed it to the point
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: where Cash said him, come on, join the band, join us,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: become part of the road show. And Carl's initial reluctance was,
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: I guess, assuaged by the simple fact that Cash is
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: offering him a lifeline. You know, it's another career and
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: Carl ended up being his Well, he never Cash never
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: said he was my backing my backing band, or my guitarist.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: He would never ever say that. He'd say, this is
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: my friend Carl Perkins, and he's on the show with us,
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: even though Carl would play in his backing band. And
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: so Carl would get do his spot and then come
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: out and play in the band, and people just loved it,
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: and it really gave him a second win. And he
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: ended up doing that for I think ten years.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: That's a real friend man to do it for someone.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: Carl was a practical guy. You know, he saw this
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: as the opportunity. He's on a wage, He's get to
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: see the world. God. You know, as he said, I
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: played for presidents and prisoners and everyone in between. You know,
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: played at the White House, he played at fulsome prison,
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: he played at San Quentin, played all around the world probably.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure they toured Astray as well. So he
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: had this great opportunity to really see the world, get
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: paid for it, hang up with his buddy Johnny Cash,
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: and also at the same time they're both confronting their
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: own demons. You know, they've made this packed. Cash has
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: got a big problem with pills, to the point where
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: you know, he's just he just about giving up to
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: Carl's drinking too much. And they made this packed. You know,
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: if whoever makes the first attempt to give up, I'll
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: come along with you, you know. Or I think there
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: might have been one hundred dollars bet involved as well.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: So you know, Cash throws away his pills and Carl
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: has his revelation one day after a gig when he
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: was so drunk the night before the show he'd barely
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: make it on stage. He's like, I can't do this,
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: you know, I cannot do this anymore. So it wakes
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: up in the morning and again it could be a
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: car embellishment, but it's a great story where he wakes
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: up and he's in the big tur van and they're
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: at parked on the shores of a beach somewhere. They're
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: traveling from gig to gig. Everybody else is out there
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: in the sun having a fine old time, and Carl
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: wakes up with you know, a mouth like a birdcage
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: and you know, a head full of cobwebs, feeling like death,
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: and he just said that's it, and he picked up
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: whatever Budley had walked out into the water, just threw
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: it into the drink, and allegedly never drink again. I
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: don't think it was that simple.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: But it's a great story. It's a great.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: Story, I think. You know, there were relapses, of course.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: You know, he's on the road, you know, and he's
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: also Carl's a big family man. You know, he's got
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: his own brood by this time, and he's got this
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: great connection with his wife Fouder and every night on
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: the road he'd call her and he'd say to her,
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: I think it's really quite beautiful. He'd say, look out
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: the window, you know, particularly if they're in the same country.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: He say, can you see the moon? I can. I'm
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: looking at it too, you know, which means I'm looking
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: at you. You know, it's really quite beautiful. So they
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: had this really strong bond. So that got him through
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: and eventually, yeah, he did stop drinking, and he did
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: get back into the spotlight, and he became a big
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: part of Johnny Cash's TV show as well, and he's
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: also making really good solo records like Country Boy's Dream
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: and a whole bunch of stuff. In the sixties and
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: into the seventies, that again went under the radar, but
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: I think a really well worth visiting because he really
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: a he was really becoming a great guitar picker, you know,
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: a really good player, and he was writing really really
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: good songs that eventually started to get rediscovered by people.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: And you know who went, Damn, that's Carl Perkins. Yeah
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: he's good. Yeah, I saw him on the Johnny Cash Show.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: Didn't He used to have a hit record, you know.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: So there's all this rediscovery of Carl, which I think
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: was you know, for him, was not just life affirming,
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: but I think it actually you know, gave him kept
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: him alive, It really did.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: Right podcast back after this, we're gonna take a break,
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: he'll be back. You talk about all the setbacks that
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: he had throughout his life. Christmas nineteen seventy three, Johnny
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: Cash is the one who makes the call to Carl
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: to tell him his brother Clayton had taken his life.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: You talk about that that relationship. They had a falling
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: out ten years earlier, and Clayton never recovered.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, Well, Clayton was in the family band,
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: you know, the Perkins brother's band, and he was just
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: he was a wild card and he got into a well,
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: it wasn't. He didn't get into a fight. He just
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: king hit Red Foley, the country musician, you know, in
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: a hotel, and Carl just went, man, that is it.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: He just this is at the point when kyls that
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: he's lowest there too, and he just put him in
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: the car and I think it was a four four
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: hundred mile drive back to Jackson. He just dropped him
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: out in front of his parents' house and said, that's it.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: I'm done with this guy. And he went right off
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: the rails. You know. He became a drifter, basically an
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: alcoholic and had been founder if I remember correctly. One
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: of Carl's kids found him. You know, where's you know,
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: Uncle Dre always he's at home, and they went and
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: found him in bed and he died, and you know,
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: the house burned.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: It's just just as terrible. I was watching a clip
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: of the band together when there is Carl with his brother,
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: and his brother's just looking young and healthy, and he's
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: playing I think he played guitar or was he a
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: bass Was he the bassist?
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: The string bay the.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: String bass, you know, and you see him there and
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: you just see this whole lafe ahead of him and
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: he's on television and then to see what happened is
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: very sad.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, as Carl's career went downhill, these guys
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: sort of went with him. Unfortunately, his other brother had
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: already died as a as a sort of long term
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: result of the accident of the car accident that they had.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: So there's a lot of tragedy in his life. Yeah,
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: so he's Johnny Cash has got the word that he's dead,
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: and he had to tell Carl, who's out on the
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: road with him, you know, and it's just just so devastating,
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: you know, and again I think about think about this
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: brought more broader. This is the stuff that happened to
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: Roy Robison too, you know, terrible tragedies in these guys' life,
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: Elvis losing his mother, you know, all this stuff. It's
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: just it's it's almost like they'd made some deal where
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: you know, you're going to have all this great success,
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: but the downside is going to be really bad.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the crossroads, right, the Robert Johnson story.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: So Carl, you know, you went home and he had
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: to acknowledge that basically he rejected his brother understandably, he
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: created absolute chaos for him, but just such a heavyweight
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: to bear.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: Oh the guilt that he must have felt. Yeah, but
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: it wasn't history, it wasn't his fault.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: But he he felt responsibility because he felt responsibility. Yeah,
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: that was you know. He and he was the brother
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: who had some success and was supposed to help out
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: his other siblings, but it just didn't work out that way.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: Look at the Fogerty brothers, John Fogerty and.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: That's that's a soap opera right now. That that's a
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: I think a musical, a mini series and probably a documentary.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: You know, it's so much drama. It's awful. That's tough,
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: you know. And I guess now you think about the
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: Gallagher brothers in Oasis, you know, it's like, I think
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: the only reason they're speaking to each other now is
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: because they're going to be making a hell of a
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: lot of money over the NAT.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the Black Crows too, right, Chris and Rich Robinson.
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: They're out on the road. They just can't get to
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: Connecticut this week.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: It's funny you say that now. It was either the
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: Gallaghers or the Robinson said of each other. Oh boy,
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: I didn't know how bad sibling rivalry was until I
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: went out on the road with these guys.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: I can't remember which one either.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: It was probably both of them, to be honest. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: things as well, ran Day Davies. They always have problems,
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: you know. So it's just unfortunately, it's a it's sort
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: of part of rock and roll folklore, perhaps, you know
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: you Unfortunately siblings don't always mesh, and there's this drama
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: and you know, like I saying Carl's point, it was
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: just this horrible news, you know, your brother's dead, and
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: you know, he took it, really took the way. Really
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: he felt it was his problem. He felt it was
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: his creation, and you know, it's just another burden that
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: he that he had to carry.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: Talk about what could have been. We were talking about
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: how far his career would have gone if not for
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: the car accident. But then there's a twist of fate
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: where when Carl reads about Elvis's death in August of
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: seventy seven, Carl's thinking at that point, now he was
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: he actually felt bad for Elvis because that level of
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: fame that Elvis had to go through. He felt that
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: that led to Elvis's demise, and he just thought, you know,
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: maybe I was better off the way he just turned out.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: It's felt so bad for Elvis.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: I think he said he got to see him maybe
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: a week before he passed, or a day or two
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: before Elvis passed. I can't recall it.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: He tried to say mcgrace land but got turned away
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: like everybody else did, except you know, Carl just drove away,
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: whereas Jerry le Lewis came back with a gun. You know,
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: different people, different characters. But yeah, I think, and it's
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: it's really an interesting reflection on the way Carle saw
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: the world, is that a lot of people would have
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: craved Olvers level of success. My god, you know, he
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: was the Michael Jackson of his era. Really, he was
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: the absolute center of the universe. He was the Coca Cola.
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: He was the Muhammad Ali, you.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: Know, the first major pop star.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. And Carl, I think firstly he realized that
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: he just didn't have the same jush as Elvis, you know,
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: he didn't have that same thing.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: Who did, no buddy but Elvis?
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah. And then later in life, you know,
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: when Elvis dieding he was only forty two, Carl, you know,
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: sort of I won't tell he was thankful, but he was.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: He was very much aware that, Wow, maybe I was
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: fortunate not to have had to endure this weird world
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: into which Elvis disappeared. And again, very much like Michael Jackson,
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: you know, kind of crazy town where you can't get out,
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: you can't go anywhere. Your life is just just sort
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: of in a cocoon because of fans and adulation and
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: pressure and people depending on you.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: It's just too much, I would say too. Just the
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: the fact that Carl Perkins went through what he did
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: with his career, it kind of humbled him, kind of
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: kept him a little more grounded. And whereas Elvis just
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: everybody said yes to him. Whereas Carl Perkins he was
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: he was down and out to the point where he
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: was just like everybody else just having to, you know,
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: scrape by it and make things work. But Elvis, if
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: somebody said no to Elvis, he would have just fired
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: him and said I'm going to get somebody, and he
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: was going to say yes.
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And simple stuff too. I mean, Carl just really
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: liked having a wife and family, you know, the simple stuff,
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: a nice home as eventually he got a really nice
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: place in Jackson, you know, with guitar motifs in the garden,
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: which I like. Yeah, but just simple things like that.
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: He's I guess maybe his his desires and his taste
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: were much simpler, much more country, even though him and
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: Elvis came from a very very similar environment. You know,
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: it's just something about more down home about Carl Johnny
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: Cash to a degree too, although he became a super
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: duper star, and you know, I'm pretty sure enjoyed the
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: trappings of fame at the same time, you know, his
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: second wife, June Carter Cash, who was there by his
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: side right up until his death. You know, there there
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: was a pretty tight bond. I just heard a great story.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you've listened to Tom Petty's Buried Treasure.
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah and Serious Exam. Yeah.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: They put them all up online now. And I was
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: listening to one and he was talking about working with
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: Johnny and June Carter Cash. And he said, when they
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: were doing the Rick Ruben stuff. One morning he came
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: into the studio American Recordings. One day, he came into
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: the studio and as he drove in, he said, there's
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: Johnny and June sitting at the bus stand. You know,
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: the bus stop right across the street. What the hell
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: is this? You know, what are they working on the
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: cheap or something? What's going on? And he said, they
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: came into the studio and he said, John, what are
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: you doing? He said, Oh, we just wanted to sit
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: there and see if anybody recognized us. No one did.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: No one did, so we came back inside. It sort
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: of made me think, you know, that's the kind of
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: Carl would say that.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: You know, that's an awesome story. I tell you, Tom Petty,
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: it's no surprise that he was a fan of Carl Perkins,
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: very similar. Just solid songwriter. It's just technically you could
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: get the job done. But he wasn't the kind of
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: guy who's going to blow you away with that kind
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: of stuff. Just an amazing songwriter.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: And he was always a fan. You know, Tom Petty,
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: I think, above and beyond everything else all this and
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan. I mean, one of the best shows,
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: one of the best four song sets I've ever seen
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: in my life was Tom Petty with Dylan here in
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six. And then Heartbreakers would come on Mead
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: Show and do a four song set which I think
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: was Rebels refugee, don't come around here no more. In
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: American girls like Boom boom, boom boom, and Dylan was
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: really bad. It was really bad. Really any came on
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: in the crowd is screaming more and this is the
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: middle of the show and they're being on cord and
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: I remember I was right down the front. You could
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: see Dylan's like.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Patty was Patty's top five man.
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: And Carl did a great version of one of Carl's
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: songs called Restless, and it's just you can just sense
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: the fun they had in the studio doing this. You know,
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: it's just, you know, a breezy song about you know,
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: itchy feet. But they're picking and playing this song and
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: you can just tell it's the best time as far
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: as they're concerned, the best time they've ever had in
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: their life together. You know, it's just so good. And
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: Petty got himself to a lot of really great situations
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: like that in the last I guess twenty years of
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: his life. Ye know, Johnny Cash, you know he's working
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: with these really good people at the Woolbury's of course,
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, so you know, huge admiration for him, and
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: also I envy the guy that he was a fan
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: first and foremost and a great musician, and he just
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: found himself in all these wonderful situations where he would
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: have been not unlike Carl with say the Beatles and
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: Johnny Cash, and so I would have been pinching himself, going,
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: how the hell did this happen? This is great. You know,
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: Carl was considered as a Woolbury too when Johnny was.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: He really wait a minute, did I think I heard that?
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah there was. There was the big debate
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: when Aubuson died after the first record had been so success.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: I remember the debate, Yeah, who's going to fill his spot?
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: And Carl was on the short list. But eventually I decided,
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: you know, it's sort of disrespectful de Roy to put
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: anyone in the spot.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: Which is yeah, they decided to not replace him. Bruce
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: Springsteen was rumored. I don't know if you remember that.
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm too young.
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah that would have been really interesting.
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they needed a senior partner, someone maybe a Dell
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: Shannon or someone like that, or you know, someone a
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: little older. But yeah, so you know, and also think
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: I really like the fact that Woolbury's second record was
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: called volume three.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: I know, yeah, you just avoid the sophomore slump, just
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: go right to record three. Yeah, that was what eighty nine,
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: I think, or eighty eight when that first album came out,
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: and in the eighties was a good decade for Carl.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: He did the film, like you said, and he was
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: celebrated by the big artists of the time, and there
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: was a TV special right that they put together.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that Rockabilly's Session was actually a real trailblazer
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: because it was the first Cinemax special. Royalbison's Black and
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: White Knight came after that, and what had happened is
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: is cal he been He pitched this idea, you know,
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: how about we do this this concert record a concert
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: essentially a concert video. But it grew from that and
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: he actually sent video invitations to all the people he
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: wanted involved, which I thought was really nice, you know,
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: a personal invitation rather than just having I don't know
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: his manager contact their manager. He actually this is sent
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: to George Harrison Friar Park, England, and there was a
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: video saying, hey, George, doing this thing, you might want
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: to get involved, what do you think? And in the
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: end it was Clapton Ringo Star, George Harrison, guys from
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: the Stray Cats, Roseanne Cash, Dave Edmonds, you know, just
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: a great, great lineup. And you know, the was option.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: The Cinemax people had come to Carl and said, okay, great,
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: you've got this fantastic lineup. You've got two Beatles, right,
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: this is very rare, two of the three surviving Beatles.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: No one's ever done this before. How much to play
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: some Beatles songs and ultimately said, no, that's not the idea.
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: The idea and everybody has agreed on this is to
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: do my stuff their own way, and ultimately I think
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: they did Beatles songs. They did Carl songs the Beatles
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: had recorded, but that was as close as it came.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: And it's great if you look at it, and I've
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: been looking at it back to back with Black and
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: White Knight, which is the Roy Orbison Cinema special. The
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: car one is quite different because it's much more interactive.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: You know, when you watch Black and White Night, the
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: Roy Orbison one, it's great and the performances are fantastic,
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: and Roy's in great voice, but everybody is in such
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: awe that they sort of stand back, except for Springsteen,
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: whereas with Carl's session, everybody's interacting with him, you know,
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: him and George Harrison are trading guitar solos, and then
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: Clapton will step in and play something, you know, and
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: then Ringo will come down front, and it was really playful,
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: and then in the end they form, you know, like
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: the songwriter circle that you see it a lot of
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: Nashville sessions, you know, and also I think they do
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: it on Austin City Limits as well, where they sit
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: in that semi circle.
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: And that's a great shows City Limits.
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there was, you know, and I think they call
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: it the songwriter circle. Everybody got into this group and
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: started playing together, and it's just really it was a
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: precursor to the unplug stuff as well. So it was
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: a real trailblazer, really worth watching. And the look on
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: Karl's face, it's just worth admission. Only it's just so
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: thrilled that these young guns or youngish guns younger than
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: him and such revered players are willing to, you know,
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: take this journey with him. It's a fantastic, fantastic session. Yeah.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: I think it was in his early fifties around that time.
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: Then he got to the Rock and Roll Hall of
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: fame before the decade was over, so that that's right.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Sam Phillips inducted in, which of course is interesting because
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: you know he had his business problems with Sam Phillips,
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: but I think he was willing to let that slide,
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: you know. And he was sitting with Roy Orbison actually,
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: and you know he came back to the table and
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: Roy said, damn, I wish Elvis was here. He would
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: have loved this, you know, I think absolutely. You know,
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: these guys really they as super and over as all
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: their careers went, there was a real fraternity between them.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: You know, Ca you could tell that, Yeah, sure.
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: Cayl being I think. And again when they did this
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: thing called the Class of eighty five, which was a
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: thirty year anniversary of Memphis music. It's really it was
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: an attempt to get the million dollar quartet back together,
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: but because Elvis had gone by that point, so they
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: brought in Roy Orbison. There's a fraternity. These guys had
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: came through the same environment with Sun Records, early hits,
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: you know, really grass really you couldn't get any more
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: blue collar than their background. So they had that all
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: that in common. You know, their careers had gone on
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: on all these crazy journeys, but eventually got to a
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: point in middle aged. They're comfortable, you know. And the
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: revered figures. If there was a mount rushmore of music,
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: you know, you'd have Orbison's face up, you had Johnny Cash,
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: You'd have Carl's face up there for sure. So these
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: guys have become these these revered figures, these iconic figures.
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: To me, as tough as some of Carl's story is
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: and was to tell, the late career stuff is really
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: really rewarding as a writer because you just got to
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: thank God. This guy got some agnoledged right.
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: He was diagnosed with cancer in ninety one, throw cancer,
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: but he did recover and he kept going, stayed pretty
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: active through the mid nineties.
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: Oh, he was playing hundred nights a year. You know,
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: he had well what he did after he left Cash,
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: he'd been sort of nurturing his son, Stan and Gregor's
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: musicians and they're good players, and he's sort of in
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: some ways, you know, he saw how other people took
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: their family out with them, and he thought, I can
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: do that, you know. So he formed a band with
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: these guys and a couple of others called the CP Express,
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: you know, which I really like and they start. This
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: is mid seventies, so he said to Johnny Cash, look
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: it's been a great ride, but it's my time to
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: see if I can do my own thing again. And
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: they went out on the road and you know, initially
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: they're playing little it's almost like he's being back in
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: the Perkins Brothers band, playing the roadhouses and honky Tonks.
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: But he picked all these out of the way spots
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: that people really came to and play, just to get
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: a feel for whether this works, and of course it did,
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: and buy what the eighties late eighties, they're playing one
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: hundred nights a week. You know, they're playing all around
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: the world, good money. And he's with his sons. So
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: he's found this really interesting way to maintain a strong
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: relationship with his now young adult sons that if he'd
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: been working solo, he may not have been able to
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: nurture that relationship. You know, I see it now with
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: Neil Finn. You know, we were talking about Neil Finn.
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: He's brought you know house, Yeah, he's brought his two
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: sons in the crowded house. And it always made me
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: think about Carl and the CP Express and how he'd
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: done the same thing, you know, thirty years earlier, and
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: it's really it creates a really different bond in some ways.
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: You know, the musical relationship, the relationship of a band
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: is sort of different to the relationship of a father
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: and son. But he sort of got the best of
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: both worlds. And you know, by this time, you know,
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: he's he walk on stage. All he had to do
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: was walk on stage and people that jump out of
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: their seats and start screaming and applauding, you know, and
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: for his he must have felt incredibly proud to have
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: his sons experience that too. You know, it must have
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: been a really big moment for him.
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: Down Rock Podcast, We'll be back after this. You've got
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: to come back with me.
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: Where the future.
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: Chocob and a musician for life. He played right up
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: into only till like a few months before he passed
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: in January of ninety eight. And in November of ninety seven,
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: he was at a one hundredth birthday celebration for a
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: fellow church member, right, and he played a song for
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: her at her table restaurant in Jackson.
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, Family Perkins Family Enterprise. Yeah, and hey, that's
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: you one hundred birthday. Let me play you a song,
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: you know. And he died not long after. But the
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: last he did was only a few months before. It
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: was a concert, a fundraiser for Montserrat where Air Studios
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: was where Carl had gone to record with Paul McCartney.
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: And you know, so he and this was in London
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: and again, you know, Carl's brought out and people just
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: go mad. You know, there's the bill with you know,
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: all these huge stars, particularly McCartney. On the bill it's
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: Carl Perkins Man. Everybody had come to see Carl.
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: You could see that as the ending of the film,
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: you know that that's it. He just he finishes on top.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: And there's a quote or there's actually a plaque on
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: his wall with a quote on it. I wanted to
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: read it because it says, just before his death Carl
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: had been asked how he would like to be remembered.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: She looked up on the wall of his home in
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: Jackson and it read, within these walls, I've written my songs,
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: I've done you and I've done you wrong. Let it
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: be said when I'm gone That he smiled and wasn't
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: ashamed to play a very fitting epitaph as you're right there. Yeah, yeah,
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: he wrote it.
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: I mean he did my work for me.
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. What do you think his legacy? How do
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: you remember him? How should he be remembered?
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, simple factor, we're still talking about him,
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: what almost twenty five years after his death. You know,
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: that's a lot but a lot of the bands that
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: like the forward from Slim Jim Fantom, from the Straight Cats,
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: really I think it really captures the relationship that these
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: younger guys and there's a great band here called the
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: Living End who are really carrying that rockabilly spirit through
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: that Carl had had created, you know, with his brothers
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: and then and then later on his solo work. So
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: I think there's that just a simple fact that he's
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: talked about in the same breath as Elvis and Johnny Cash,
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: Jerry Lee Lewis. The MEI and Dollar Quartet has seemed
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: to have got another life of its own. You know,
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: there was a Broadway production, you know, and Carl was
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: such a big part of that. In fact, the Me
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: and Dollar Quartet session came out of a Carl Perkins
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: session for Matchbox, So you know, just historical stuff like that,
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: but also the fact that you know a lot of
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: young players. Rockabilly seems to undergo frequent revivals. You know,
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: it's like every ten or fifteen years suddenly rockabilly's back
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: in fashion, and they're always citing Carl's number one touchstone,
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: number one. You know, if there's a if there's a
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: rockabilly Mount Rushmore, Carl's face is dead center, you know.
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: The King of Rockabilly, just like it's so yeah again.
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: You know I didn't have to work too hard to
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: come up with that titline, no man.
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just that came right right at you. Yeah, Carl Perkins,
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: The King of Rockabilly. It's out November twenty six. You
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: can find it whoever books are sold, and people can
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: find you online. You have your own website, right Jeff.
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: Jeff Aptor dot com dot au. You find me Yep,
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: there's info about the book there. And yeah, look, advanced
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: reviews for the book being fantastic. But I was just
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: tough to get slim Gin Fantom from the Stray Cats
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: to write the forwards. You know, he loved the book
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: and he just wrote this great just about working with Carl.
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: He called him a rockabilly Buddha. That's not fair that's
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: a T shirt man.
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: Jeff After thanks so much for coming on to talk
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: about the book.
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: Great to talk to you again, Eric, Thanks very much.
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: That's it.
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: It's in the boox