Latest / Project Podcast / Charity sector focus: growing project management’s maturity (and getting stuff done)

Transcript

Charity sector focus: growing project management’s maturity (and getting stuff done) · Project Podcast

0:08
Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
0:12
the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm
0:15
the editor of Project, APM's quarterly journal and your host
0:19
in this podcast. I'm speaking to Ashley Hargrave,
0:22
Interim Head of Strategic Projects and Management at the
0:24
King Edward the 6th Foundation in Birmingham, and David
0:27
Kitchener, Head of the Portfolio office at the RSPB, to find out
0:32
what it's like to be leading project management within these
0:34
two charities, both of which are APM corporate partners.
0:39
Ashley and David give me a behind the scenes look at how
0:41
project management is woven into the strategic and operational
0:45
fabric of their organisations. They also give me their top tips
0:49
from project managing in the charity sector and how digital
0:52
transformation is bringing great benefits.
0:55
Listen on to find out more about getting stuff done, hiding the
0:58
project management wiring and why it's key to stay calm.
1:10
Welcome both of you to the APM Podcast.
1:13
Thanks so much for sparing the time today.
1:15
I think an interesting place to start would be to ask both of
1:19
you a little bit about the charity you work for and your
1:21
current role and responsibilities.
1:23
So, Ashley, tell us a bit about what you do and where you work.
1:28
So I work for a charity which is a foundation charity, it's King
1:33
Edward the 6th Foundation in Birmingham and our mission is a
1:38
very ambitious mission and that is to make Birmingham the best
1:41
place to be educated in the UK. The foundation consists of 14
1:46
schools from across the secondary education sectors and
1:52
the idea is really to improve the educational opportunities
1:56
across Birmingham. We actually educate the largest
1:59
number of secondary school children outside of the local
2:03
authority in Birmingham now. So you're Head of Strategic
2:08
Projects and Management. Can you tell us a little bit
2:11
about your role and your responsibilities there?
2:15
So I've been in the role fairly short time since September.
2:20
The role is really to bring in project methodology and best
2:25
practise because we've brought in a new approach for schools
2:29
that they can bid in to strategic funds.
2:33
And so we've got a funding part and what I've really sort of set
2:38
up is a major projects fund for the schools to fit into with the
2:43
framework that sits around that and kind of the gateway process.
2:47
And then in terms of the strategy, we're doing a strategy
2:50
refresh at the moment for the next 5 years, which will take us
2:54
from 26 up to 31. And the idea of that is we're
3:00
reviewing our existing strategy. So we've looked at the
3:03
performance and gained feedback from students, staff and
3:10
governors and then working on the new operational projects
3:15
that align with that strategy. So really it's it's the whole
3:19
methodology of project management from beginning to end
3:23
and the gateways associated to and kind of the assurance piece.
3:27
Have you always worked in charity?
3:30
In charity sector and what do you enjoy about working in this
3:34
sector? Yeah, I've worked in all the
3:37
sectors across the spectrum. I started my career as a fresh
3:42
graduate with a biology degree, didn't really know what I wanted
3:45
to do many moons ago. And I went into working for a
3:49
conservation charity. I loved that I worked on a range
3:55
of conservation projects. And then really from there I
3:59
went into teaching and I did a sustainability management
4:03
postgraduate degree as well. But I've worked for a local
4:07
authority, I've worked for at least three charities across my
4:12
career and I've worked for an automotive company in industry.
4:16
And the common themes really being educational projects,
4:20
project management, working for charities.
4:23
I love charity work. Having that clear mission and
4:28
aligning with people around those values.
4:31
It's really exciting. It's very, very rewarding.
4:34
David, tell, tell us a bit about RSPBI mean, I'm sure everyone's
4:38
heard of it and also so your role and responsibilities there.
4:42
Sure. So yeah, I work for the RSPB,
4:46
I'm head of the portfolio office and the RSPB is a charity for
4:52
the conservation of birds in nature.
4:55
So we carry out conservation on a large scale, but you could say
4:59
a huge scale because it's, it's not only landscape scale
5:02
conservation within the four countries of the UK, but also
5:06
worldwide conservation across multiple habitats and
5:11
environments. So we're working across oceans
5:14
as well as land habitats as well.
5:16
But within the UK we do big landscapes.
5:20
So we do uplands, wetlands, you name it.
5:23
You know, any landscape that is in need of restoration or
5:27
improving or, or whether it's being impacted by the current
5:31
climate emergency overseas. We do work in rainforests and
5:36
because a lot of the species that we are interested in in the
5:40
UK migrate from other countries, we do a lot of work both in
5:44
those countries where they may spend a significant other part
5:47
of their year or countries across which they migrate.
5:51
So we work with our partners, our bird life partners there to
5:55
to help with the improvement of that those species actions.
5:58
And across the oceans we do work for the albatross.
6:03
So we have an albatross task force looking at reducing
6:09
bycatch. So making the way that fishing
6:13
is more sustainable, not only in the way that the fish are
6:17
caught, but in reducing the bycatch and bycatches is a nice
6:20
way of saying birds getting caught in Nets or online.
6:24
So working with fishermen across the oceans of the world to
6:29
improve, improve the way that they fish.
6:31
Can you tell us a bit about your role and responsibilities and
6:34
then if you have an international aspect to your job
6:37
as well, that would be interesting to hear about.
6:40
So I'm head of the portfolio office and my role is to help
6:47
projects and programmes be the best they can be.
6:50
So we own, if you like, the project management framework,
6:54
which is something that we are embedded in the organisation at
6:58
the moment. And our PPM systems are the
7:01
system that is recording all our projects and programmes.
7:03
So our role is to ensure that that is being used and we can
7:09
see the benefits actually of all the projects and programmes
7:12
being run. So it's the first step in
7:14
bringing all that project information under one umbrella,
7:16
if you like, but not taking away the project delivery from the
7:20
local areas in the RSPB. And some of those areas will be
7:24
overseas. So although we don't have a
7:26
direct link through to those overseas projects and
7:30
programmes, the projects are being managed using our works.
7:34
So we are here to help those projects being be run well and
7:39
and achieve the benefits that they are hoping to achieve.
7:42
What do you enjoy about working at RSPB?
7:46
I've been in lots of sectors, so I've been in the IT sector, I've
7:49
been in the charity sector for the last, golly, 17 years.
7:55
I've also been in financial sector outsourcing.
7:59
I think from the charity perspective, it's actually
8:01
working for an organisation that's putting something back.
8:04
So it's not just about building things or making money for
8:09
shareholders. We're putting something back
8:11
into the community, putting something back into to nature to
8:15
to make the world a better place.
8:17
Ashley, tell us a bit about how project management fits in your
8:22
organisation, how mature it is and what the ambitions are for
8:28
for the project management function.
8:32
Project management is part of a strategic management function.
8:37
And within the strategic management, it's essentially
8:42
there's a director role who I report directing to.
8:46
And then within that function there's also risk and assurance
8:52
roles and governance roles. And then in terms of the project
8:57
management, it's just me at the moment in terms of the the
9:02
projects that are in flight and operation and being developed.
9:08
But essentially we've then got people delivering those projects
9:12
that are within schools or estate teams or IT teams.
9:18
What we're looking at is the assurance side, the governance
9:21
side, ensuring the delivery of those projects.
9:25
But it's, it's obviously since it's evolved since April of last
9:30
year, a lot less mature. And so part of the role that I'm
9:35
in now is really trying to develop that maturity and using
9:40
framework that essentially is the APM framework.
9:44
So from my knowledge from working in other organisations
9:49
and using the APM framework, it's it's bringing that kind of
9:55
structure and kind of supporting my colleagues on that journey.
10:00
Really in terms of the aspirations for the
10:03
organisation. It's an interesting time because
10:06
we're getting more and more interest and knowledge around
10:11
projects, obviously since we've launched the major projects fund
10:15
for the schools to bid into, but also through the development of
10:18
the strategy and the emerging new projects that sit within
10:23
that strategy. It's very timely to look at
10:26
whether or not we will have in the future a larger project
10:30
management function. So that's part of what I'm
10:32
looking at as well. And so as part of that, I'm also
10:35
exploring apprenticeship providers and looking at whether
10:39
we could have apprenticeships and kind of grow our own team in
10:44
Heist or other routes. And also the aspiration for
10:50
young people within schools, project management, still a
10:53
fairly new career and obviously less known to some of our our
10:58
students than say careers in, in medical, medicine, law,
11:03
etcetera. So again another another kind of
11:06
opportunity is to raise the profile within the schools.
11:11
How do you communicate what project management is to the
11:16
rest of the people in an organisation who might not
11:18
necessarily be familiar with it or might think it's one?
11:22
You know, it's all about Gantt charts and project management is
11:25
just going to stifle what you do.
11:27
It's going to be boring. It's going to be bureaucracy.
11:29
So how do you communicate what project management is?
11:33
What have you found to be successful?
11:36
It's basically hide the wiring, hide the jargon, spoil it right
11:41
back to the simplest thing. What's in it for that
11:44
individual? So when they contact you on
11:47
either, you know, it's usually like a teens chat or an e-mail
11:51
or they phone you, they've got something that they want from
11:55
that conversation. So it'll typically be, I will
11:59
get an approach from a school where they're looking at,
12:02
they've got a fledgling idea for a project and they want to know
12:07
if it's a fundable project, which means it has to sort of
12:10
sit within our wider strategy. So it's boiling it back to when
12:15
I meet them and what that project idea is, and then
12:18
developing that idea with people so that it's got a wider,
12:23
perhaps a wider remit than their first thinking.
12:27
Because the first thought can be something that's just very, very
12:31
centric to one individual school and quite a small number of
12:34
individuals in reality. So it's sort of starting to
12:37
think, well, how does this join up?
12:39
How does this, how is this hitting our strategy?
12:42
And it's for me, it's always like boiling it back to very
12:45
simple terms. So don't talk in any kind of
12:49
jargon about assurance compliance benefits, but just
12:54
literally sit and listen and listen more than you speak.
12:57
Listen to their ideas. And then, you know, good old
13:02
kind of old fashioned pen and paper, post it notes, build
13:07
their ideas, be there as the person that people can go to and
13:12
you deal with the jargon. And then essentially if a
13:17
project's in the delivery mode, because obviously on the
13:21
delivery side, I've tried to make sure that everything's
13:24
clear from the assurance piece for our executive committee.
13:28
So that kind of report and it's really boiling it back again to
13:33
what do they need to know? They don't want to read through
13:35
loads of lengthy reports, very simple rag status, red, amber,
13:41
green, anything that's jargon, keep it eye, just very simple
13:46
and you know, just constantly keeping things simple for
13:50
people. I think you then get much better
13:52
engagement. The other thing I want to ask
13:56
you is you've obviously straddled both the corporate
14:00
world, the charity world, the education sector.
14:03
How transferable have your project management skills been
14:06
and have you got any advice for people who might be listening
14:12
and thinking? I've worked in corporate side of
14:14
things, can I move over to charity side of things?
14:17
I think essentially just have that self belief that if you
14:23
enjoy what you do, you like talking to people, you're
14:27
interested in people, you can go into any sector, you can find
14:33
out what you need to know because you don't have to be the
14:36
subject matter expert. It's about your attitude and
14:40
your behaviours and you know, know your knowledge in project
14:45
management and, and have those transferable skills.
14:48
But don't worry, you know, if you want to get, if you're
14:51
currently working in the food industry and you want to work in
14:54
the nuclear industry, you can still learn that and there's
14:57
still always time, whatever stage of your career you're at.
15:01
David, tell us a bit about the RSPB and how to put well.
15:06
You've given us an understanding of how how project management
15:08
fits in, but how mature it is and what are your future
15:13
ambitions for project management within the RSPB?
15:17
So I think with any charity organisation, project management
15:24
is something that's relatively new.
15:28
So it's a, it's an, it's a new profession coming into it.
15:31
And so we're working to increase the maturity.
15:36
And while we do have a number of of projects and programme
15:39
professionals across the organisation, what we're trying
15:43
to do is really, as we, like Ashley, highlight to the
15:46
organisation the project and programme group of people as an
15:51
important aspect of of any organisation, but particularly a
15:54
charity. It's part of that, selling the
15:57
benefits of it. Yes, absolutely.
16:00
From a charity perspective, the money we need to spend needs to
16:05
be against our charitable objectives.
16:07
So we get money in, we get income in from individuals, from
16:12
organisations who work in partnership.
16:14
So what we want to do is spend as much as that as possible on
16:19
our charitable objectives. And so something like project
16:22
management needs to show its benefit.
16:24
So we can invest in something like project management to make
16:27
sure that we are delivering towards our strategy exactly as
16:31
actually said and ensuring that it's not an overhead as
16:36
perceived by some people in the organisation.
16:39
So from a maturity perspective, we we want to invest in
16:42
individuals and the group of projects and programme managers
16:46
and those people who are managing projects who may not be
16:49
professional projects and programme managers, but do that
16:52
in a way that shows a benefit to the wider organisation.
16:58
So it's not a means to an end in in and of itself, it has to be a
17:01
means to have the charitable ends of the organisation.
17:05
What are the sort of unique challenges you face in in an
17:08
organisation like RSV? You already talked about the
17:10
kind of funding and money side of things.
17:13
Are there anything else, any other challenges that are unique
17:17
that you've overcome? I'm not sure they they're
17:20
unique, but as again, charities have within them people who are
17:25
really passionate about you know what we do, You know, we
17:28
wouldn't work for charity unless we were.
17:30
So it's how do we harness that energy into some of the, dare I
17:36
say, back office things? And a lot of people perceive
17:39
things like project management as a, as a back office function.
17:42
So how do we, how do we harness that passion and that energy
17:48
without stifling some of that creativity within those people
17:54
that want to work for a charity and deliver something?
17:57
My next question is how? How do you do that?
17:59
Is it very much in the storytelling side of things?
18:03
We have to express every project in a way that shows how it's
18:07
delivering towards our strategic outcomes, and the language
18:11
around those may be a little bit different because we're not
18:14
building cars, we're not creating widgets.
18:16
How do you describe something that may not achieve a benefit
18:22
for someone's lifetime? How do you describe it as part
18:26
of an objective within a project?
18:29
We're not at the end of that journey yet and we still need to
18:31
do more work around that because I think there is a lot of
18:34
business language within the project management, any project
18:38
management framework. So how do we use that language
18:42
that best fits in an organisation that is maybe more
18:46
useful using a very different kind of language without it
18:49
sounding like jargon. So it's it's how we try and
18:52
soften the jargon, keep it to a level where where we're working
18:58
with funders or partners rather organisations.
19:00
They can understand that we are managing projects in a
19:03
structured way but within the organisation, not make it seem
19:07
like a completely foreign language of those people who
19:09
whose role is not directly deliver projects.
19:15
We're APM, the only chartered membership organisation for the
19:19
project profession. When you become an APM member,
19:22
you'll receive the resources and support you need to make an
19:24
impact, delivering better projects with better outcomes.
19:28
Plus, you'll access exclusive training and benefits to support
19:31
your ongoing career development. We'll find out how we can help
19:35
you reach your potential by visiting apm.org.uk.
19:39
Because when projects succeed, society benefits.
19:46
I wanted to move on to discuss digital transformation, how
19:50
that's affected your organisation?
19:52
Have you worked on on any projects related to this and and
19:56
how has digital transformation affected the way you run your
19:59
own projects? David, do you want to give us
20:01
some insights into how the RSPB is affected by all of this and
20:07
your work? The real catalyst certainly last
20:12
few years for the digital transformation was the whole
20:15
COVID and working from home and everybody, you know, working
20:19
remotely and no longer being able to have those corridor
20:24
conversations and talking to people walking down the corridor
20:27
and speaking to people in other offices.
20:29
So it brought us together digitally.
20:32
And what that has meant was we're using those digital
20:37
opportunities to share, collaborate and work together.
20:42
So information repositories such as SharePoint and also managing
20:50
various aspects of collaborating through functions like teams are
20:56
certainly changed as how we work as an organisation.
20:59
And in the last couple of years we took the step to digitise our
21:05
project management methodology. So moving away from the Word and
21:09
Excel and PowerPoint based project management through to a
21:14
project and programme management system, which for the first time
21:19
has brought all of that project and programme management into
21:23
one place, which means we can start comparing like with like
21:30
for decision makers. So it's making it easier for
21:32
those people at the project gateways to approve or check on
21:38
project progress as they move through those gateways.
21:41
How difficult was it to introduce this to the
21:44
organisation? It was difficult, I won't, I
21:47
won't say it wasn't and we're not at the end of the journey
21:50
yet. So, you know, as with any
21:52
organisation, we are moving through that change curve.
21:55
So it has been a challenge to move people away from the
22:01
comfort of how they've always worked, using the the tools
22:05
they've always worked with, through to using a single tool
22:11
that maybe restricts some of the more local ways of working that
22:17
have evolved over time through necessity.
22:19
So what? So what this always brings, what
22:21
this digitization brings is standardisation, which is a
22:25
dirty word for for many people in any organisation, I think
22:30
because you get used to your own ways of working.
22:33
So what we've had to do is show the benefit of it, but show that
22:37
we are, we've moved from one way of working to another.
22:41
We have transformed that. But what we try to do as part of
22:46
that move is keep a lot of the language the same, keep a lot of
22:51
some of the functionality to be very similar.
22:54
So we we took the adapt and adopt approach when we brought
23:00
in the new system. So some of the change was
23:02
adapting to the new system, but some of the ways of working were
23:06
adopting to the organisation previous ways of working.
23:10
So you had some flexibility there.
23:12
Yes, we've had to bring some of that flexibility in because the
23:16
breadth and scale and scope of the work that we do means that
23:20
you can't have A1 size fits all approach.
23:24
So what we've had to do is embed something that is relatively
23:28
flexible as in in its approach. So it's it's one system, it has
23:31
one set of forms that you go through.
23:34
Those forms are the same for any type or any size of project, but
23:38
there is guidance that we provide that describes that
23:43
depending on the complexity of the work that you may be doing.
23:47
So the complexity of the project here we see how you can adapt
23:51
those forms. So these are the bits you need
23:53
to fill in. These are the bits you don't
23:55
necessarily need to fill in. These are the logs that are
23:57
really useful for you. These are not necessarily the
24:00
logs that allows people to be a bit more flexible locally with
24:04
how they're, how they're using those those frameworks.
24:06
So what we've what we've done is bring in some, what we've called
24:10
them essential areas that are one size for all projects.
24:15
And then beyond that there is some guidance about best
24:18
practise and what you you use in the framework around that.
24:22
What have been the benefits of introducing this kind of
24:26
standardised system that that either you've that you've
24:30
experienced and that you communicate to others?
24:33
So for individuals, if an individual in the organisation
24:39
wants to move to another part of the organisation, which which
24:42
happens relatively frequency, we're a very mobile internally
24:45
organisation, they will they will be using the same system.
24:49
So if they move from 1 from 1 country to another country, or
24:52
from 1 directorate to another directorate, they know that
24:55
they'll be using a standard system within it.
24:59
From an organisational perspective, it means that we
25:03
are able to hold things like risk and lessons and other
25:07
things in a single place so we can have a look at them and see
25:10
what might be impacting across the organisational at a risk
25:15
level. We can learn from previous
25:19
projects, so we may be repeating a similar project in another
25:24
part of the organisation. If our lessons learned are all
25:28
in that standard format on one system, we could learn and look
25:31
back at those lessons and understand what they did well,
25:34
what we need to learn from from a decision making perspective.
25:38
The decision makers, decision makers are comparing similar
25:42
information that's coming towards them.
25:44
It's not been presented to them in a different format in a
25:46
different way. They can understand that when
25:48
they see one project proposal coming to them, it will look and
25:53
feel the same as another project proposal coming to them, so they
25:56
can compare them if they need to.
25:57
At an organisation level, we can actually report on the number of
26:01
projects, where they are in their life cycle, the cumulative
26:05
risk and so on. That enables us as an
26:08
organisation to understand the sort of breadth, depth and scale
26:13
of projects that we are running. Ashley, what about for your
26:18
organisation? How's digital transformation
26:22
affected the way you run projects or affected the
26:24
organisation? How you've been?
26:26
I know you haven't been there very long, but how have you been
26:29
able to get to grips with that? So in terms of the stage that
26:34
we're at, we are rolling out Microsoft across all of the
26:38
schools. So the IT department are working
26:42
on that. What were they using before?
26:45
Was it just each school had a different system?
26:48
So each school had different systems.
26:51
So where we're aiming for is that all schools are on
26:56
Microsoft as their in house system and and then essentially
27:02
for every school there's that easy communication through Teams
27:06
etcetera. In terms of our in house tools,
27:11
we are using Microsoft as the key tools in terms of project
27:17
management. So the Planner tool, Microsoft
27:21
Project Excel and essentially from a reporting point of view,
27:26
everything's, you know, in kind of that format, the kind of the
27:31
PPDM framework, the the type of technology that David's talking
27:38
about. I think we're probably a few
27:40
years away from using something like that.
27:42
But what we are looking to do and we're just starting to
27:46
requirements map it at the moment is find from the
27:50
requirements a way of demonstrating at an individual
27:55
level the links between the individual delivery of
27:59
objectives through to with strategic outcomes.
28:04
And so we have been exploring that within the Microsoft Office
28:09
tool set. And we did think that we had a
28:11
tool that we were going to use purely for that.
28:14
But there's been some changes within Microsoft that mean that
28:18
we're not going to be using that.
28:19
So we're kind of back to the drawing board with that at the
28:22
moment. I want to ask both of you, just
28:25
from having listened to you about where you think the future
28:28
of project management lies within the world of charities.
28:32
You know, when I've interviewed other project professionals
28:36
across organisations that quite senior levels, it's very much
28:39
making that jump up into the kind of executive C-Suite.
28:43
You know, having project professionals at the very top of
28:46
the organisation who's speaking to the CEO or whoever about how
28:51
to put the strategy into place. How do you, how do you make it
28:55
happen? I'll be really interested to
28:57
know what you base think about that perspective and where you
29:00
think the future might lie. So David, where do you think
29:04
this is headed? I think charities will be well
29:09
out of necessity need to be working more closely together
29:13
and so project management may, it may come a point where where
29:18
project management is running across charities.
29:21
Oh, that's interesting. Why?
29:23
Why? Why?
29:24
I think as well because a lot of, a lot of not just charities,
29:28
but a lot of organisations are doing similar things and a lot
29:30
of charities are are looking for that, that income or looking for
29:35
that working with others to actually try and deliver their
29:40
strategy. So our many strategies,
29:44
strategic aims are greater than what an individual charity may
29:48
be able to do simply because of the resources available.
29:52
So we will need to work very closely with others to deliver
29:56
some of our strategic outcomes. So I think project management as
30:00
as it does now, you know, many of our projects have worked in
30:04
partnership with other large organisations, local governments
30:10
and others. So I think one of the big
30:13
aspects of the future ways of working is, is how projects can
30:18
run across multiple organisations.
30:20
And what does that mean? So if our framework is different
30:25
to another organisation framework and we have
30:28
successfully embedded them in our own organisations, what does
30:31
that mean for those for those projects have to work together
30:34
on a project? We have, we haven't worked that
30:37
out yet, but it's something we're we're definitely looking
30:39
at. And I think as an organisation
30:41
it's it's internally, it's that professionalisation of that
30:48
project and programme management function that actually is
30:53
describing its value to the organisation and actually
30:59
putting it Brunton centre of some of the delivery that that
31:04
we have to do to to achieve the things we want to achieve.
31:10
A lot of our work is done what we call our business as usual
31:14
work is, is done by everyone every day.
31:17
If we make, if we're going to need to make substantial changes
31:21
to, to the to reduce the impact of of climate change or to
31:27
improve some of the landscapes of some of the species we want
31:31
to work with, that involves a change that can really only be
31:36
run through projects. Actually, do you agree with
31:39
that? What are your thoughts?
31:41
Yeah, very much so. I think in terms of the
31:45
development of strategy and the delivery of strategy and it's it
31:50
is confined. I think the actual kind of the
31:56
strategic side of project management is confined to a much
32:00
smaller number of people. That that knowledge, like you've
32:05
mentioned, Emma, being confined to kind of the C-Suite and kind
32:09
of really understanding that it feels to really drive benefits
32:14
across charities. That a positive thing would be
32:19
ways across charities of enabling, particularly now that
32:25
people are able to work more remotely.
32:28
Opportunities for people to network and come in to actually
32:34
kind of almost audit the work that's going on and to give
32:40
fresh pairs of eyes. Because I think one of the
32:44
things that most charities benefit from is, is having that
32:50
kind of holistic look and that little bit of, you know, kind of
32:54
peer review almost, you know, what are our challenges and how
32:58
do we get move forward? Because for a lot of charities,
33:03
the the staffing is quite small and it's a really positive thing
33:08
to bring someone else in to have a look.
33:11
But often for charities, they've got very limited budgets to use
33:17
consultants. And you know, using a consultant
33:20
is really, really expensive. But if there's a way of having a
33:26
network and opportunities where you can kind of peer review, you
33:30
can share ideas, you can listen, it's like gold dust really.
33:34
It adds so much value. What have been the biggest
33:39
lessons when it comes to project management that you've sticks up
33:43
over your career that you'd want to pass on to to people
33:46
listening, David? It takes a long time to embed,
33:51
so don't underestimate it. Also, I think as well, it's
33:58
expressing it in a way and I think that if you like the
34:04
project management professionalism has moved in
34:07
this direction. It's move, it's trying to move
34:11
it away from forms towards function.
34:17
So it's moving it more towards how does project management fit
34:23
in with the function and of individual organisation rather
34:27
than try and bend an organisation to the form of
34:33
project management. So if you think about how you
34:37
manage a project and you take away some of the dry language
34:41
around it, it's actually how all of us as individuals plan stuff.
34:49
I like using the word stuff because I think that can kind of
34:52
that that takes some of the the language out of it.
34:54
We all, we all do stuff. Some of that stuff we happen to
34:58
run as projects. Some of that stuff we happen to
35:00
not run as projects. So it's it's don't, don't, don't
35:03
always try and shoehorn the language in, but also understand
35:08
that as individuals, how we run a project is often how we we run
35:12
our daily lives. So it's we have an idea, we plan
35:15
for the idea, we decide whether we're going to do that idea or
35:18
not. We move forward with it.
35:20
Bringing some of that personal perspective in is always useful
35:25
and adapting what you think as being the key things that you
35:30
need to embed as part of your project management framework.
35:34
Adapting those to the organisation in which it's going
35:37
to have to live, breathe and be useful because if you don't it
35:42
will be harder to get people to use it because they will save
35:47
something as being other and outside.
35:50
Ashley, what do you think? What's your what's your lesson
35:53
that you pass on? I would just say don't expect
35:57
everything to go smoothly all of the time because actually on the
36:01
percentage of things that go smoothly, it's, you know,
36:06
there's a high amount of business change and risk in any
36:10
projects. Even very small,
36:12
straightforward, simple projects can just go completely left
36:16
field. Obviously you're doing all these
36:18
things to track risks, issues, you're bringing all your
36:21
stakeholders together, you're doing all your assurance piece,
36:24
you've got your governance around it in terms of a career
36:29
or working on projects, you'll come into contact with lots and
36:33
lots of people, all walks of life, but things won't go
36:37
smoothly all the time. My key tip is always stay calm.
36:42
You know, just stay really calm and work with a no blame culture
36:48
on everything that you do and try and create in your own
36:52
working environments. So the meetings that you hold,
36:55
the dialogues you hold, the sessions you run one to ones,
37:00
anything, any interaction with people, just create a safe space
37:04
and harmony for others to work. I don't mean by that be a
37:08
pushover or anything like that. You know, have those key
37:12
leadership qualities really be a person who can do be +1 of my
37:20
key tips is always walk in the shoes of others.
37:23
So someone's getting very stressed about something.
37:27
Try and unpack in your mind that they've come to work and they
37:32
may have lots of other things that are going on in their
37:35
lives. You know, they might have had
37:37
zero, might have sleep the night before because they've had a
37:39
child that's had them up all night.
37:42
And just, you know, understand others where resistance arises.
37:48
It's easy sometimes I think, or it's an earlier in your career
37:52
mistake to make to think, Oh no, that's all gone wrong and it's
37:55
all my fault or this person's being awkward or difficult.
37:59
My top tip would just be stop and think and look at everything
38:03
holistically. I could spend another hour
38:05
talking to you because you're just passing us a really
38:08
valuable advice. And what I'm getting from it is
38:12
as much about the relationships that you're managing as, as the
38:16
systems. In fact, it's probably more
38:17
about how do you speak to other humans about what you're doing
38:21
so they understand and, and, and help you get there in the end.
38:24
So I just leaves me to say thank you, massive thank you to both
38:28
of you for your time. Thank you.
38:30
Thank you very much. Thanks for the opportunity.
38:41
Thanks again to Ashley and David for joining us and to you for
38:44
listening to the APM Podcast. Don't forget to look out for
38:47
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39:05
This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body
39:08
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39:11
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