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What Does it Mean to Be Non-Binary? · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Steff.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: I never told your production of iHeartRadio.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: And welcome.
• 0:19
  Speaker 3: Okay, so we have to put this disclaimer out. We've
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: been talking about doing this specific episode for two years now,
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: I think, and it's with Joey, our fabulous contributor and
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: part of the show and friend of the show obviously
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: and co worker on all the things. We've been talking
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: about doing this episode for a minute, haven't we we have?
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Yes, thank you, Hello.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: That's they're just a part of the show, of course.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: That's yeah, No, it's definitely. It's better. It hasn't been
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: two years. I don't know.
• 0:52
  Speaker 4: This is definitely something I felt like I'll do this
• 0:54
  Speaker 4: at some point.
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: I feel like me and you specifically talked about it
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: at the bar when I came to New York the
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: first time, and we were like.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: We need to have this conversation.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: So it's been a couple of years. Yes, No, it's
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: definitely at high Okay.
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: Yes, we're teasing this because we also thought that what
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: bet a way to end Pride Month but to have
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: a Q and A about the spectrum of gender and
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: what it means to be non binary, and I guess
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: before we even start this, I guess we need to
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: know why we're asking you, Joey, to talk about what
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: it means to be non binary.
• 1:27
  Speaker 4: No, for sure, I mean so I identify us on binary.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: I think I've spoken about it a couple of times
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: on the show. Disclaimer upright, I'm going.
• 1:36
  Speaker 4: To talk a lot about my experience and all of that.
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: You know that being said, there's a lot of people
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: in the world, and everybody experiences, you know, gender in
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: a different way. It would be you wouldn't I mean,
• 1:51
  Speaker 4: I would hope that you wouldn't ask like some random
• 1:54
  Speaker 4: man or woman to explain what womanhood or manhood or
• 1:57
  Speaker 4: whatever means to them and assume that that is what
• 1:59
  Speaker 4: it means for the entire population.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: So much like being non binary, and as I'm going to.
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: Get into too, I think like kind of the nature
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: of the concept of being non binary inherently sort of
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: makes it hard to define, because I have like a
• 2:16
  Speaker 4: section of my notes right now that literally just says,
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: this is an enomology lesson. But it's like the word
• 2:21
  Speaker 4: non binary literally means not binary. That means anything that
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: sort of exists outside of the binary the man, woman binary.
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: So again, I'm gonna be talking about my experience. That's
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: not necessarily going to be the case for every single
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: person that identifies as non binary people.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: Also within the kind of.
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: Overall non binary umbrella, I think people don't realize how
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: broad of a term it really is too, Like it
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: encompasses a lot of different identities. So yeah, that's again
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: my disclaimer. If I say something and you're like, that's
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: not the case for me, then I love that. For you,
• 2:57
  Speaker 4: that's amazing, But I please don't come after me for
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: speaking my truth too.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: And I think this is one of those things where
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: when you and I are talking about it because I
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: had to apologize and.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: I did it again not two minutes ago, Like it's.
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: Such a newer concept for someone who is an ex millennial,
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: Like we have kind of a spectrum because I am
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: like in between the gen X and millennial and Annie's
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: a true millennial and you are our gen zer. So
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: there's so many like levels in this conversation because I
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: really I harp on the fact that I'm like, yes,
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: I have understood that I am aging and I no
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: longer am up to date on what is happening in general,
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: and that I love having these types of conversations about
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: the fact that things are now seen as a part
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: of a spectrum instead of being concretely this, this and this. Yeah,
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: And I think that's one of the beautiful moments where
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: you and I were talking because we had first, of course,
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: met online and we talked to each other through the webs,
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: but you and I got to sit and actually have
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: a conversation over a couple of delicious drinks in the
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: bustling city of New York during Halloween time.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: So it was kind of nice too.
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: But like, you and I sat down when we were
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: talking about it, and I had to be up front
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: like this is so new to me. I still have
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: a hard time like transitioning into them because that's such
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: a like a third person conversation, you know, growing up
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: in the nineties and eighties. But like, but it makes
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: perfect sense. It's just about understanding that things change and
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: things it.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: Should should have been a part of the spectrum.
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: So with that and knowing that this is your personal story,
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: this should be something that we are talking about on
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: a personal level, because that's what makes this conversation important.
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, And kind of like on that note too, something
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: like One of the points I sort of wanted to
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: talk about is the fact that yes, a lot of
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: I think people the terminology is new, like the word
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: not binary, right, that is new that I'm not denying.
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: I ended up writing something for Transitive dis Visibility, which
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: was back in March, and like posting on my Instagram, right,
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: I talked a little bit about this idea that you
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: hear a lot, I think from people that are a
• 5:14
  Speaker 4: bit older that they're like, Okay, well, this is like
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: a new idea.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: The idea itself is not new. The word is new.
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: And part of what I think inspired me to like
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: want to talk about this is I'm working on this
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: other show.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: Right now called Afterlives.
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: Season two is out now wherever you get your podcasts,
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: you should listen. But part of that show is I
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: spent a lot of time talking to queer elders and
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: you know, also like digging through a lot of queer
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: history archives. The show is about marsh P.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Johnson.
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: I probably should have said that at the top, but anyways,
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: that is again, so a lot of a lot of
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: history research and something that I kept coming across that
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: I thought was interesting was there were a couple of instances. Again,
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: it was kind of mixed because there were some you know,
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: I do think it's a misconception that all sort of
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: like people over a certain age or just like, oh,
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: this is confusing, I don't understand it.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: Some people were got it right away.
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: A couple of people were clearly sort of struggling with
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: the concept of like pronouns or like being non binary
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: or taking a non binary look at gender.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: But then I.
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: Would look back at the things that they were talking
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: about or like the work that they had done during
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: kind of their prime in the queer rights movement, and
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: there were these things like introgny and like gender fluidity
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: that like came up a lot, and kind of the
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: early like the way that drag I guess was viewed
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: in the seventies, and that again is sort of changed
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: over the years too, and a lot of these words
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: meant different things then than they do now. But Yeah,
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: something I kept coming across is I was like, clearly,
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: you understand the concept the word non binary is new
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: to you.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: And this is where.
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: I'll be so honest, y'all, I please don't cancel me
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: for saying this.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: I think we kind of up a little bit.
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: I think we managed to pick like the least sexy
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: word possible for something that is like objectively very cool
• 7:11
  Speaker 4: and sexy, because come.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: On, like non binary, I don't know.
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: And I think again, I think the word non binary
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: like something that helps me sort of think about it
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: shoe or helps me like explain to people.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: Is like think about it as like an adjective too,
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: like you're you're again, you're taking it's taking a.
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: Non binary look at gender, and it's saying that like
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: you're not fully a man, you're not really one whatever.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: Most people exist within that gray area.
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: There was another like news broadcast from the eighties that
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: I remember listening to at one point too, where they
• 7:43
  Speaker 4: were talking about one of the early Pride parates and
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: they were like, and this was like a like a
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: may I think this is like ABC or something, and
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: they were like, you know, men, women and everybody in between,
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: and so I was like, Okay, clearly, like the people
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: understand that. And like, even growing up in you know,
• 7:59
  Speaker 4: the early two thousand, before i'd heard the word non binary,
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: I understood this idea of like, well, there's like a
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: gray area.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: In between two.
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: There's people that don't really fully fit into one or
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: the other. And I think what's happening now is more
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: people are embracing that label who you maybe wouldn't expect you,
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: And I think that's part of where some of the
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: confusions coming in. I think we're also like solidifying some
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: of the language about like you know, pronouns and whatever. Also,
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: I do want to stay upfront, like I use they
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: them pronouns. Not every non binary person like strictly used
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: to say them pronouns. A lot of people would just
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: sort of be like, I'm fine with whatever. Pronouns A
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: lot of people use like they she, they he. Again,
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: everybody's got a different experience. But then I also know
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: people that are like, you know, used she they pronouns
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: or he they pronounce that probably wouldn't call themselves a
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: non binary. They just are like, well, you know, I'm
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: a woman for the most part, but.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: Also gender is fake. And yeah, I'll power to you
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: for that.
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's amazing because yeah, we definitely just
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: recently had Withquel on the show and she was talking
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: about the mere fact that you know, when it especially
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: it comes to trans people, but all of this, they
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: they've always existed, they've always been here, they will always
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: be here no matter what happens, no matter what people
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: want to groan on and on and about and have
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: a lot of hypocrisy and bigotry.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: But they've been here and they will always be here. Yeah,
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: you're right.
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: Growing up, I definitely heard androgynous quiet it. It was
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: never like fully realized to what that was. We knew
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: what that was, but to be a specific identity, like oh, yeah,
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: that makes sense, right, and then that's such a deep conversation.
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I might not like the word in Rodyna's particularly,
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: Like one of my best friends growing up was like
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: the first person ninety that came out of binary when
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: we were I want to say, like eighteen, But even
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: before that in high school, they were experimenting a lot
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: more with like gender expression, and they really latched on
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: the term androgyny, and we're like talking about how they
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: were verianto like Androgena's fashion and just androgynous presentation and
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: all that. So that was sort of my which I thought, again,
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: I thought was interesting because this was a word that
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: kept coming up in all of these these interviews and
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: these archives from like the seventies and eighties, so clearly
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: there was sort of like the foundation for that that
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: was the word that I heard growing up in like
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: I wanted this was like twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, and like,
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: so there is a through line there, and that ended
• 10:24
  Speaker 4: up turning into how I understood what the idea of
• 10:29
  Speaker 4: being a non binary was. And then kind of on
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: the note about like pronouns, something that I thought was
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: interesting was this idea. Obviously, the whole concept of like
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: asking people for their pronouns and doing you know, and
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: you're doing interactions, putting your pronouns.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: On your email, all of that, that is a fairly
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: new thing.
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: However, the fluidity of how people used pronouns like that
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: is not a new thing either. I mean, something that
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: I learned from working on the show was back in
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: the day, like regardless of whether you identified as like
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: a trans woman or just a gener queer person or
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: like a gay man, a lot of people were using
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: she her pronouns for each other, for their friends. It
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: was kind of an inner community thing. And looking back
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: at that, I'm like, yeah, that makes sense again. It's
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: something that it's it's situational, it depends on.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: It has always kind of been a fluid idea.
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: People have always used different pronouns and different situations. We
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: have now sort of put in this system of asking people.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: And I get that.
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: You know again, also when that hits like a mainstream
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: sort of expectation, it can be seen differently.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: But that also, I think it's not new.
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: It's just the language that we use around how we're
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: like asking people for these things.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: That's new.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: I think we also wanted to put it here.
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: I think it was funny you and I were talking
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: and I say, I was like, I'll be your nuna,
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: your uni, which is a Korean term for his older sister,
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: And then I started thinking about it, and you were like, yeah,
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: I think we really need to have this conversation because
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: I had to have an ABC with my mom and
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: it feels like.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: Like, wait, are you saying that.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: I'm like it, Oh, no, okay, all right.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: I get it. We need it.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: We need this talk. We need to have this talk.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: Thank you. I did not say that you were I
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: had conversation.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah you did, but I heard that's what I got.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: But you know what, I'm pretty sure that yes, we
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: we definitely do have this need to have this conversation.
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: But as you were saying before, this is about your
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: personal journey and we're taking a little like deeper look
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: specifically with your experience. So can you kind of talk
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: to us and about and you and the listeners about
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: your journey specifically.
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so okay, time to talk about me. Yeah, I
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: again I would say that I identify as my binary it. Honestly,
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: it kind of took me a little while to get
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: to that place. I don't think I would say, and again,
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: this is again my experience.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: A lot of people have had very different experiences.
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: I wouldn't say that it was like that I always
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: knew that I wasn't a woman or I wasn't a man.
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: I know plenty of people that that is kind of
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: their story. They're like I always sort of felt uncomfortable
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: being one.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: Or the other. I didn't really feel like that growing up.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: I personally, the.
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: Way that I think about my experience is like I
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: grew up as a girl. I was socialized as a girl.
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: That really really impacted the way that I go about
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: the world now. And it's not how identify anymore. But
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: I see that as like, yes, that is.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: A part of me. Other people, again don't feel that way.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: All power to them. Love that.
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: So yeah, I think like growing up, I always was like, yes,
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: I'm a girl, I'm a woman. I'm seeing that way
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: and treated that way by society. But also something that
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: I realized sort of what as I got older and
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: then reflecting back, was girlhood and womanhood.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: It was always something.
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: That felt like a battle, like it always felt almost
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: kind of painful. And I think the way that I
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: thought about to myself was, Okay, we live in a
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: deeply patriarchal world. It is very hard to come of
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: age as a woman. I'm responding to that. I'm responding
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: to the fact that womanhood is like a very painful
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: experience and like very uncomfortable experience.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that's not the case.
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: Like obviously, you know, we did to live in a
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: very patriarchal world. There's a lot of things that I think,
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: especially you know, growing up and being like very hyper sexualized.
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: And you know, again this was like the early two
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: thousands twenty tens, like.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: You turn on the.
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: TV every single I don't know, it's like the beauty
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: expectations of like the two thousands was a whole other thing. Uh,
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: But like for me, something I mean the biggest sort
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: of I think flag looking back that I was like, oh,
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: it was like I remember having like panic attacks over
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: the idea of like having boobs. Like I was like,
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: I like, I don't know why anybody would want this.
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: This sounds terrible, like it ruins your life. And then
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: like talking to friends and being like, oh, you're not
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: having that experience, like you actually do want to like
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: experience puberty and like have all of these body changes,
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: like you don't just want to be sort of like
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: an androgynous slate for the.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: Rest of your life. That's crazy.
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: I literally remember I'm pretty sure this was Twilight, but
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: I remember wanting to a.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: Movie and I was like twelve. Yeah, I think it
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: was Twilight.
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: I want to twelve, And there was a joke about
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: like one of the characters being like, oh my god,
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: like my boobs are gonna look so good in this dress.
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: And I remember being like physically, like why would.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: You want that? Like I was like that sounds terrible,
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: Like ah, like I just that's just gonna get you
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: like attention. That's uncomfortable.
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: And yeah, I think it took me till I was
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: older to sort of realize like, oh, okay, that was not
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: like a universal experience you know, so.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and then I think like.
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: The idea of like what it was to be not
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: in binary. I first sort of heard about that when
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: I was like at the end of high school starting college,
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: and at first I was sort of like, Okay, well
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: that's not me because the people that I knew that
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: were coming out of saw binary a lot. And I'm like,
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: we're like, I don't identify as one of the other.
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: I'm sort of like I want no gender. I don't
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: identify with one or the other. And I was like,
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: that's not necessarily my experience. So I think like when
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: I was like sixteen seventeen, I sort of interpreted like
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: what I was going through as I thought that it
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: was because I was gay, and I came out as
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: a lesbian when I was seventeen. I identified as lesbian
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: for like the end of my teen years before.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: That, I identified as bisexual.
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: And but yeah, I think I like around when I
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: was seventeen, I started realizing that I was really uncomfortable
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: with the thought of like having sex with a man
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: or a man looking at me sexually in any kind
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: of way. I think I still was like attracted to men,
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: but it was like the idea of being of a
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: man like freaked me out. So I was like, Okay,
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: this is a sign that I'm gay. And then like
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: flash forwarding too when I was twenty, that was around
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: when I was really starting to explore my gender identity.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: I cut my hair for.
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: The first time, I was going by different pronouns, I
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: changed my name, all of that. I was presenting a
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: lot more masculine, and I think that was again where
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: I sort of came back around and I was like, oh,
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: I actually think I.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: Am by I am attracted to men.
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: I just was really uncomfortable with the way that like
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: I was seen in a like heterosexual situation. Like the
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: problem literally was like it wasn't them, it was me.
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: Like it was like I was like, I don't love
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: what this means, the way that I'm seen in this situation.
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: And from what I've heard, like a lot of people
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: that are not just non binary, but like trans in general,
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: I think have had similar experiences where they'll identify as
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: like one or the other and then they'll start transitioning
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: and they'll like realize, you know, some of it is
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: just coming also from like personal just obviously this isn't everybody,
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: but I've a lot of people have.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: Had similar experiences.
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: But yeah, going back to that kind of period of
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: time when I was like six ages like sixteen to
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: like nineteen, I knew I was queer. I think I
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: was uncomfortable with the gender binary. But again I was
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: sort of attributing it to this idea that like, oh well,
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: it's just like really hard to exist as a woman,
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: you know.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: I was at that point.
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: I'm very staunch feminist too, and so I would say,
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: like again, I was like, the issue is it's the
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: subjectification or blah blah blah whatever, It's.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: All these things.
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: But like, ultimately, at the end of the day, I
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: think it was an era that was just like defined
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: by me being confused by like some of the things
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: that I thought weren't universal were not.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: There was like one instance.
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: Where I remember like having a conversation with some friends
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: in college and somebody had like said something about like, oh, well,
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: like if you just woke up and you were like
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: in the body of a man, like how would you
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: And they all like had this visceral reaction where they're like,
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: oh my god, this would be terrible, and I was like.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: I feel like that'd be kind of fun. Like I
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: was like, I don't.
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: I was like wait what Like I was like wait,
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: I was like surprised. I was like, oh, you guys
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: don't think about that. It's like, oh, that could be
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: like fun experience. I wish I could just go back
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: and forth like that sort of thing, and you know,
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: and again going back to the whole everybody experiences gender differently.
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: I do also know cis gender women that are like no,
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: I would love that. That would be fun for like
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: a day or two. But you know, I was surprised
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: by the fact that I was like, oh, my other
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: like girlfriends don't and a bunch of whom were also
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: actually I think in that situation they were all also queer,
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: which I was like, oh yeah, but like, especially like
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: as queer people, it makes sense that there's like sluidity.
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: I was like, oh, you're not having that same experience,
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: like you are very comfortable being a woman, being feminine.
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: And I think some of it was me like learning
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: for myself too, like.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Just because I don't find something empowering feels like the
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: wrong word.
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: But I don't I don't find something like affirming or
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: to be a part of who I am doesn't mean
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: it's not the same way for other people.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: And I think like learning that helped me realize that.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: I was like, something is.
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: Different, Like I'm experiencing the way that I want to
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: be seen in the world differently than a lot of
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: my friends that are also women or were assigned female
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: at birth.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And then so I when I was twenty, I cut.
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: My hair short for the first time. This was like
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: literally a year before the pandemic. So I beat you
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: know what, I beat everybody else. I changed my pronouns
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: before lockdown, guys, I was ahead of the curve literally,
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: but I remember, like cutting my hair, I was starting
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: an experiment with like my friends.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: I was sort of like, hey, I think I want
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: to start go with my joey.
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: I would like to use them pronouns, and you know,
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: started slowly at first.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: Was just like with friends.
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: Had changed my name on like a couple of my
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: social media you know, profiles and all that.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: I was still going by my.
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: First name in school and all that, so it was
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: like not totally set, but I was like, I'm just
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: going to see.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: How this goes. And yeah, I think that was again
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: like the period where I was.
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: Like, oh, I'm I'm feeling a lot more comfortable existing
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: in this gray area. And so, going back to the
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: thing I said before about like when I was kind
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: of ending high school being in college, a couple of
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: my friends had come out as non binary, and I
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: immediately was like, Okay, so this is not when I
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: am because I'm talking to them and they're like, yeah,
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: I don't really feel like identify.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: As a man or woman out or I would like
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: to be nothing.
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: And I was sort of like, I feel like I
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: wish I could be like both, Like I wish I
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: could just sort of like go back and forth between both,
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: Like I wish I could either be seen as like
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: a very masculine woman or like a very feminine man
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: a lot of the time. So, honestly, and this is
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: back to what I was saying about, everybody experiences it differently,
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: and I think again looking at non binary is more
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: of a like taking a non binary approach to how
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: we see gender rather than this one specific checkbox of.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: You can either. Basically, I think this is what's happened
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: in the last couple of years.
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: It feels weird to be complaining about this now that
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: you know woke is dead and trans people don't exist
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: anymore and all that, but I feel like I should
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: be grateful for the few wins.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: That we had for a little bit. But sort of
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: what I think ended.
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: Up happening was, you know, we got that like third
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: check box on the like survey where it would be like,
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: are you a man or you women?
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Are you non binary?
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: And then what happened was, instead of being like, all right,
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: so no binary is just like taking a non non
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: binary look at this, it was now we've made a
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: third category, so if you're not, you're either in one, two,
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: or three, instead of being like you're either in one
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: or two or you're somewhere in the middle. I don't
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: really know how we like obviously again it's that's a
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: big concept to try and like put into official terms.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: Like I don't really know what the answer is.
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: But it was sort of this like check boxification of
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: what it means to be non binary. It was like
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: putting it into a very small category of this is
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: what it is. And with that people want a clear
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: concise definition and you really can't give it a clear
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: concise definition. But yeah, but I think at the end
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: of the day, I think, particularly as feminists, thinking about
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: what it means to be non binary, and thinking about
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: having a more expansive idea of gender is like a
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: very very important part of our understanding of feminism because like,
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: to me, this is sort of almost the endgame of
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: like what liberation looks like, because nobody wants to, like,
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: regardless of whether you're a CIS gender man or woman
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: or transperson or non binary person or whatever, nobody wants
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: to be defined only by their gender. Like, we're all
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: so much more than that, and we live in a
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: world where we have created these really rigid boxes of
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: who you are. Again again, it's that checking off the
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: survey box when you're you know, filling out the little
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: advertisement survey where you're like, I'm a just twenty to
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: twenty five, or I'm a I'm a man, I'm a woman, whatever,
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: And I think, I mean that is kind of like
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: like having that be our primary identifier. Is what you're
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: gender is. That is the patriarchy at work. That is
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: the idea that like, you're the gender you were born
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: with is so so definitive of who you're going to
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: be as a human being.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: I saw a Tumbler.
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: Post about this, I know, super serious source point here,
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: but it was talking about the fact that which I
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: was like, yeah, this also sort of restinated something with me,
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: Like if you go back ten twenty years, the idea
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: of like gendered sports was a feminist issue, like the
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: fact that it was like we're saying, hey, like women
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: are not on the same athletic level as men, Like
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: that is misogyny.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: And now we've sort of circled back.
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: Where turfs have taken this issue and been like, yeah, actually, no,
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: men are so scary and powerful and they can't you
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: can't have trans people in sports because of that. And
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: it's like, hey, what's happened, Like we've come back around
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: to now spewing these misogynistic ideas, Like we've come back
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: around to saying like biological determinism, the way the what
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: genitalia you were born with determines the type of person
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: that you're going to be able to be, which it shouldn't.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, like crazy idea.
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: I don't think it should regardless again, if you're a
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: ciss woman assist man, it's the same situation. This has
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: also come up in things like you know, the like
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: oscars when there's like acting awards, like why is that
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: gender you know going back to the trans people in
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: sports thing. I think there was like a thing where
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: there was like a trans woman who was banned from
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: like a chess tournament or something where it's like, at
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: that point, like what are you saying. You're just saying
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: you think that, you know, people that are born male
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: are somehow so so radically different. And then like the
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: other thing we've seen from that whole thing is, you know,
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: like with the Olympics last summer, it doesn't just stop
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: at transoman. It's then just gonna go to anybody that
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: sort of exists outside of the gender binary, regardless of
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: how like, you know, however you decide to define the
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: gender binary in that case. So yeah, I think in
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: my mind, the way that I sort of think about
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: this is the concept of taking a like non binary
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: approach to gender, saying it is not just this one
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: thing or the other and you can only be one
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: or the other. Really owning into this idea that everybody
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: knows themselves best, right, like everybody knows what's best for themselves.
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: It is an idea of bodily autonomy. It is an
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: idea of like self determination. I think, at the end
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: of the day, if we want to create a world
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: that is more just and you know, not violently terribly
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: awfully misogynistic. You need to acknowledge the fact that, yeah,
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: like this gender binary should not be as strict as
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: to day is it to not really be.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: There to begin with.
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: I don't want anybody to see me and have like
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: the main thing they're thinking about being like they're non binary.
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: They then I have to blah blah blah blah blah.
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: I like, my existence is so much more than that.
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: I I to me, it is saying like I don't
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: want to be defined by manhood or by womanhood. I
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: want to be defined by, you know, who I am
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: as a person who I am, And I think like
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: that is something that a lot of people in my
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: generation have kind of leaned into when it comes to
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: gender ninity.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: I keep thinking about there.
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: Was litera there was a lie I first of all,
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: I saw there. There was like an Instagram post I
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: saw that was like, it's like the twenty year anniversary
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: of the like the bisexuality episode of Sex in the
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: City where they were like raking all the characters based
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: on like how much bio energy they have. But I
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: was thinking about there was like a line that Samantha
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: has in it where she's like, I think in the future,
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: like it's not gonna be like about sleeping with men
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: and sleeping with women.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: It's gonna be about like sleeping with individuals.
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: And I was like, yeah, like that that is kind
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: of what like, at least for me in my bubble
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: and my gen Z bubble of people, like I think
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: that is how we're trying to reframe that.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: It's like, you know, regardless in.
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: This case, we're talking about personal identity rather than attraction.
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: But it is like people just want to be seen
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: as individuals.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: As people.
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: They don't want it to The goal of feminism is equality.
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: The goal of feminism is for us all to be
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: treated similarly, and part of that is understanding like we
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: don't even really need these clear cut definitions of what
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: it is to be a man and what it is
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: to be a woman, because like, who does that at
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: the end of the day.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: That helps the patriarchy, That's the answer for sure.
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: There's definitely such a depth in this conversation because you
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: had a whole philosophical level of like, but I don't
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: know why I have to be this, but I don't
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: think of this because I don't feel this way and
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: it is so real that that's that's the understanding that
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: you have to unlearn so much of the misogyny and
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: the patriarchy that you realize how deep it goes into
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: your identity and trying to unlearn those And that's for
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: any individual who may not have that moment of like,
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: oh wait, I may be gay, it might be trains
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: that may be this or that. That's just the whole
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: level of unlearning.
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: I think a big thing for me that idea of
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: like I'm learning too is realizing and this is kind
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: of what I was going into with that story was
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: like or talking about, you know, growing up and all
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: these things. I think realizing I don't have the same
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: experiences as everybody else and that's like that's not bad thing.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Like that's good.
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: But it's also like it's realizing that something that can
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: feel like right and can feel like authentic for someone else.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: I might see that and be like thinking.
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: Like, okay, thinking about myself, I'm bringing up this topic.
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: I'm not getting into the obvious debate that is happening online.
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: So Brina Carpenter was a great example for me for
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: there was when she first like came out to see
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: and I was sort of like, I don't like that is.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: A version of femininity.
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: If you put me in that, I would be deeply uncomfortable.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: I would be like, I hate this.
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: I am not this is not me, this is weird,
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: this is demeaning to me.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: I don't like it.
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: Realizing that a lot of my friends saw that and
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: we're like, no, that's a version of feminity that like,
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: I really feel comfortable and I really feel like it
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: reflects my gender expression.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: I was like, okay, cool, that's like I love that
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: for you.
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: It's a different experience for me, like being able to
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: separate what is my truth versus what is.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Other people's version of that. We all have different EXAs experiences.
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: We're all coming back to that, Like that's that's the
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: point of coming back to in the end, I guess,
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: I think, especially to something for me is like I'm
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: I consider myself a transvasculine person too. I honestly like
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: my expression. I lean a lot more on the masculine side.
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: I am not. I haven't done anything too physically transition yet.
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: I might down the way. I don't know yet. I
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: have friends that are kind of like one of my roommates.
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: I always like, don't about how from like we're doing,
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: Like we're like the two cars passing each other and
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: like being like, what what are you doing here? Because
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: they're like a transfeminine, non binary person. We had like
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: a conversation a couple of weeks ago where we were
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: talking about our experiences. We had like a very very
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: similar experience sort of again going in opposite directions, which
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: was a little bit funny, but also like talking to
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: them and like hearing how like exploring their femininity was
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: has been very empowering and has been very and like
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: getting to see them really turn into this like person
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: that you know, they seem so much more confident, they
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: seem so much more like actualized in this identity and
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: being like, that's amazing.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: I love that that's in power for you. I love
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: that that's you linking in to.
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: Your Like if I did that, it would be I
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: would hate it.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: I would not be having a good time.
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: But then yeah, and then I think that also helps
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: me then communicate to like, you know, I grew again,
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: I grew up a feminist.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: I grew up as.
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: Somebody who is like seen as by society as a girl.
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: I grew up as a staunch feminist. I was raised
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: by like a mom who was very, very feminist. I
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: think being able to also communicate why like, I can
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: still be a feminist, I can still be supportive of
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: femininity and like not saying that masculinity is like better
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: than femininity inherently, but also realizing there's a lot of
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: things about femininity that I am.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: Not comfortable with that I don't like for myself. You know,
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: I love it for other people, I don't love it
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: for myself.
• 31:54
  Speaker 5: Well, we appreciate you coming on and talking about this
• 31:57
  Speaker 5: because I always feel you keep immering home at the
• 32:00
  Speaker 5: point everybody's different, everybody's an individual, and having a like
• 32:05
  Speaker 5: one oh one, it's very tricky, and especially when the
• 32:10
  Speaker 5: experiences can differ so vastly. And one of the things
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: that you brought up that I've also run into, which
• 32:20
  Speaker 5: I've always known, but sometimes it can be very shocking,
• 32:23
  Speaker 5: is that I also have a bubble. Yeah, sometimes I
• 32:25
  Speaker 5: leave that bubble. And even with people I'm like, I
• 32:29
  Speaker 5: feel like we're on the generally on the same page,
• 32:32
  Speaker 5: and they don't know the difference between Like.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: They couldn't tell me what.
• 32:39
  Speaker 5: Like gender identity even is they don't know what that is,
• 32:43
  Speaker 5: and so you know, I'll like sit down and try
• 32:46
  Speaker 5: to explain it to them. But it's just really interesting
• 32:49
  Speaker 5: when you kind of step outside of the people who
• 32:52
  Speaker 5: really are in the same world as you. But that
• 32:58
  Speaker 5: being said, what are some things that you wish people
• 33:03
  Speaker 5: knew when it comes to identifying as non binary?
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think the first thing is like
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: kind of what I was saying on the top, this
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: is not a new idea.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: I think the language is knew.
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: The way that we were discussing it is new, but
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: it's not a new idea. I love to point to
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: the you know, anecdote about how I think it was.
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: I can't remember when this happened, but sometime in like
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: the early twentieth century, they stopped teaching kids that you
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: can only write with your right hand, like they were
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: letting kids actually learn how to be lefties if they
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: were lefties, and like all of a sudden, the number
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: of lefties like shot up, Like all of a sudden,
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: were all of these kids that were left handed, And
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: it was like it wasn't like there was necessarily something
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: that made more people lefties. It was just that they
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: were stopping punishing that.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: You know, it's people use that a lot.
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: I mean people have talked about that with you know,
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: talking about like the way that we talk about like
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: autism diagnosis and stuff like that, people talk about queer
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: people the way we talk about they were like neuro
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: diver To see, in general, there's all these different things.
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: The way people talk about you know, a lot of
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: this isn't new. I think the reason you're seeing like
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: it might seem, you know, from the outside, like it's like, oh,
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: it's this gen z thing that all of these young
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: kids are tapping on, this trend. We just this is
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: the result of decades of people fighting for more gender equality,
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: of fighting for more bodily autonomy, of fighting for more
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: you know, queer liberation.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: More people are admitting that.
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: I you know, you see older folks now that are
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: coming out as trans are is on binary as adults
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: because they just were never.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: Given that room to explore that as a child.
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: Again, I think like for me, I always kind of
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: Again I don't think I always knew I was like
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: not a woman on me, but I always sort of
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: knew there was something that was different about me. I
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: didn't have the words for it until I was older.
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: So yeah, this is not new. The way that we're
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: talking about it is new. Every person can point to
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: somebody in their life that they were, like they're not
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: necessarily like on one or the other end of the
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: gender binary.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: Just because they weren't calling them non.
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: Binary at the time doesn't mean that that was not
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: like you know, that they were not a real actualized person.
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: I think the next like the next thing too, And
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: this is something that always bugs me. I y'all like
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: we're not that sensitive. You can chill out a little bit.
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: I think this happens with like a lot of queer
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: stuff in general, where there's this idea of like, oh
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: my god, like like can't offend like anybody.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: Nobody hype.
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: Most people understand like it might take a sec to
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: adjust to new pronouns or like whatever it is.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: It's for me it is like intent.
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: Intent is the thing that matters if you are really
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: trying to work at changing the way that you're talking
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: about somebody, if you're really like working at you know,
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: addressing somebody in the way it's about respect. Like at
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: the end of the day, the way like when we're
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: talking about pronouns, we're talking about names and stuff like that.
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: It's about showing respect for somebody and saying, okay, like
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: I'm acknowledging that I'm treating you the way that you
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: would like to be seen. Nobody's gonna freak out at
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: you if you don't get it right right away.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: If somebody does, I'm sorry, that's their problem.
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: That's not like, that's not a reflection on the rest
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: of us. That doesn't mean don't try. But also like, yeah,
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: there is room for you know, if you're confused, that's fine.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: There's lots of things they're confused. Again.
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: The thing that I keep saying, everybody's got different experiences.
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: I'm not gonna pretend like I fully understand. I don't
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: know what it's like to be a trans woman.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: You know. I'm not gonna stand here.
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: And be like I like, I'm not gonna be mad
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: because I'm like, I.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: Don't necessarily know.
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: What that experience is life or what's gonna be comfortable
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: or whatever. I'm gonna say this thing and it's gonna
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: blah blah blah blah. I'm not gonna be like, well,
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: that's just too complicated and I can't deal with it,
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: and you're the problem. Like I'm like, no, teach me.
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: That's part of being a human being is learning. So again,
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: I don't know, but just I don't know where this idea.
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: It's very much like it's the right wing, like oh,
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: you can't say anything these days, like everybody's just so flake. No,
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: most people understand, and it's like I don't know. People
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: make mistakes, things change.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: I yeah, I don't know.
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: One of the best sort of things that I heard
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: was like, Okay, if you're you can be confused by
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: it and still like respect people's ability to like express
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: their own bodily autonomy, right, Like you could be like
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: I don't totally understand this, but I support your right
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: to self determination or whatever.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: Like, if you're still confused by this idea, I think
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: just literally thinking about that like check boxification quote unquote
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: that I keep talking about, Like the way that we
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: think about it is if you're like, yeah, if you're
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: a man, woman, non binary, these three options like just
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: get that out of your head, like destroy that. It
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: is not a third option. It is a looking at
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: this binary and being like, hey, there is all this
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: space in between.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: There is all this space in between. It is all fluid.
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: It is all people go back and forth, people whatever
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: it is, looking at the idea of how we think
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: about gender in our world right now and saying, hey,
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: maybe it's not as set in stone as we were
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: told it is. And again, that's why I think I
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: keep coming back to this is ultimately like a feminist issue.
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: This is ultimately an issue of people having the right
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: to their own bodily autonomy, people having the right to
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: define who they are, people having the right to express
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: that in the way that feels comfortable for them.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: And then like at the end of the day, like
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: who really cares, Like is it really.
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: Bothering you if somebody is using them pronouns Like I'm sorry,
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: it's an adjustment, but like, I don't know. I'm from Chicago.
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: I grew up calling the Sears Tower. I also like,
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: it's the Willis Tower now. I grew up calling it
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: the Seers Tower. Nobody like in the media was like, oh, well,
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: you know, we don't know what to call it. What
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: are the Like, it's things change names all the time.
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: It's not like again, at the end of the day,
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: why it's not bothering you?
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: It's not bothering you? What other people do. It's not
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: bothering you.
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: If somebody gets a tattoo and you don't like tattoos,
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: or if they get appeers.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: Like, it shouldn't bother you. If somebody decides they want
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: to go by different.
• 38:57
  Speaker 5: Pronouns, but bother them, it does other than the time
• 39:02
  Speaker 5: I get it, So do the tattoos and the fact
• 39:05
  Speaker 5: you know, I'm I.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: It should there are anything, but it does. Oh. I
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: think it's just like you know, we all know.
• 39:18
  Speaker 5: But I think it's that idea of like this change
• 39:20
  Speaker 5: is and somehow encroaching on my beliefs and it's making
• 39:25
  Speaker 5: me uncomfortable. In heaven forbid, I have to take like
• 39:28
  Speaker 5: an extra second and like think about this.
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: I feel like the people that complain the most to
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: are the people that it's like you you don't actually
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: know like a single transperson.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: I guess that's why I keep going back to.
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: I'm like, we're not ready wants to pretend like, oh, well,
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: y'all are so sensitive, y'all like are gonna jump at
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: any And I'm like, have you talked to a single
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: non minor person like I don't, I don't know anybody
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: that most people I know like there was some comedian
• 39:53
  Speaker 4: that there was like a stand up bit that was
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: going around that they were talking about where they were like, yeah,
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: on my proe arounds are they them or she her?
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: Unless somebody use that because like I'm that confrontation or whatever.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: Like I was like, yeah, no, I was like this, this
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: is not party. I mean, I don't know that. Also,
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: just my social circles, I'm like most people I know
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: are like pretty non confrontational.
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: People are probably gonna be like, oh yeah, whatever, sure,
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: let it.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: Go, move on.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: You're like, let it go, move on.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: All right, We're gonna We're just gonna keep going with this.
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: I feel like you've already addressed because we were talking
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: on the next one of the other things.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: I would be like, what are some things that annoy you?
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: I feel like we touched on to that.
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: When it comes to, uh, the non binary, when people
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: talk about non non binary folks in general, anything else
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: to add.
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: I yeah, I mean I think like when I said, again,
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: it's the it's the just because language is new doesn't
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: mean the concepts are now.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: And then also it really isn't that big of a deal.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: It's really is not like a to the end of
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: the day.
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: It's about somebody's individual experience and that's nothing to do
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: with you, like it and it has nothing to.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: Do with you.
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: I I think these are conversations people should have. I
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: think even if you are somebody who identifies as like cisgender,
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: I think, yeah, exploring gender identity, and even if you
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: come out of that and you still identify as gender like,
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: we all could benefit from thinking about the way that
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: we think about our own gender and thinking about the
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: ways that the idea of gender and the gender binery
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: sort of shapes how we view the world. I think
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: that is healthy for everybody to think about that. I
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: think at the end of the yeah, I think these
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: are important conversations to have because of that. I think
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: it is part of feminist liberation, It is part of
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: queer liberation. It is part of just personal learning who
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: you are, because yeah, nobody, like I said, nobody wants
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: to be defined solely by their gender. I mean maybe somebody,
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: I don't know, maybe the like tradwise on TikTok or something.
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: But you know, give them a couple of years, I
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: guess maybe we'll have an awakening.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: Who's to say it they do.
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's very important to realize, just like you
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: were saying that this shouldn't be a big deal.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: Everybody should be able to be who they are without.
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: It being like you making you being like the yeah,
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: you making it a big deal, just existing. Most trans
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: people would rather just be there and be able to
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: quietly change into who they were felt like they were
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: meant to be, without people making it a big deal,
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: without people making it like a big part of their
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: identity unless they want to because they want to use
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: it for activism stuff like that that I think about
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: that all the time as an Asian, as a Korean person,
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: Oftentimes that's the only thing they see, that's my identifier,
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: and you're like, why can't.
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: I just exist?
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: And the same thing for like just in general, for
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: women and feminists who are like, we don't want this
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: separate category, honestly, we just want to be seen as
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: equal and be treated as equal and get equal pay
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: all those things, and it doesn't want to be a
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: big deal. We don't want it to make a special
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: category if you treated us equally, Like there's this level
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: of understanding that if society, if the patriarchy did not
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: exist or existed into when the matriarch was just as
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: much an equal factor in conversation, then it would be
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: wonderful that would I would rather be ignored as this
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: and be seen as talent, you know what I mean.
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: There's so much in that conversation and normalizing these conversations
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: where it's not a big deal. So we have the
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: younger generations who are trying to figure themselves out, don't
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: not feel the struggle an internal turmoil of like am
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: I sinning you know in that level, or if I
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: like ruin society and my family, if I come out
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: as any of these other factors that I was told
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: was not the typical, not the stereotypical way to be
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: like that would be beautiful, where just like if a
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: child was able to be like, oh yeah, I am
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: attracted to by same sex, that's great, moving on, you know,
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: like being able to have breakfast and then saying I'm maybe,
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: maybe not maybe I'm attracted to all any both, you know,
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: whatever what not, and not having to feel like they
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: had to fight against that because somehow they're wrong.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: Going off of that, like I always kind of say
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: I never wanted the fact that I was queer or
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: the fact that I was not metting or whatever to.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: Be a big deal. I didn't want to have to
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: talk about it.
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: I am somebody who like works in a like queer
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: media space right now.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: The reason for that is because we live in a deeply.
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: Homophobic, tarensphobic, et cetera, et cetera world I where you know, I've.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: Kind of I have to talk about it. I don't.
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: I would love if I could just be like, these
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: are my promous this is what I want to do
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: whatever end of the day. But I keep having to
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: justify it to other people. And so I've kind of
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: learned how to, like, you know, have that be part.
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: Of the things that I talk about.
• 44:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I mentioned I had written something around
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: Rance dan visibility about this, and something that I.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: Think I compared it to was in high school.
• 45:09
  Speaker 4: I was I was really involved with a lot of
• 45:12
  Speaker 4: like student film stuff, and I was there a couple
• 45:15
  Speaker 4: of different instances where like I was the only like
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: girl on set, and you know, like, I think that
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: was an experience where I remember like being very vocal
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: about like women in film and like meeting more women
• 45:29
  Speaker 4: in film.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: But at the same time, I never wanted the.
• 45:32
  Speaker 4: Fact that I was like I would show up to
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: the student film set, I would be the only girl.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: I didn't want.
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: People to think about that, Like I didn't want people
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: to like look at me and be.
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: Like the token girl is here, like whatever. And I
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: think it's the.
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: Same thing with gender identity, where I was like, I
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: don't want the first thing that people think about, Like
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: I don't want it to be the thing that stands
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: out to be like, oh, well, they're non binary, they're
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: trans whatever. I don't want it to have to be
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: a thing that I have to think about that I
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: have to worry about how that's.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: Impacting of other people are seeing me.
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: I just want to be I think, like similar to
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: what you said, I don't want this separate category.
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: I just want to be.
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: Growing up I one of my I was really into
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: like riot girl music growing up Shocker and.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: I loved like Sleeterer Keeney.
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: And there was an interview I think that Carrie Brownstein
• 46:19
  Speaker 4: about like where she was talking about how like frustrating
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: it was being interviewed and constantly being asked like about
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: being like a girl rock group instead of just being
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: asked about like being a rock group and like being
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: one of the biggest like rock bands at the time,
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: but they were constantly put in this category of like,
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: but you guys are like a girl rock group.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: Nobody wants that.
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: Again, even if you're sis gender, nobody wants to be
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: solely defined as this thing that makes them different.
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, I think we many of us could have tested that. Annie,
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: you can at tested that. That's kind of how you
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: started with this show.
• 46:50
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I wanted to be on the Science Show and
• 46:53
  Speaker 5: they're like, but you're the lady, so you're the whole
• 46:56
  Speaker 5: talk about girl stuff. You go to the Feminist, which
• 47:00
  Speaker 5: I'm glad I did, but I just remember being like, okay, right, Like.
• 47:04
  Speaker 4: Sometimes I feel like kind of a like hypocrite for
• 47:06
  Speaker 4: add because I'm like, and I do work on like
• 47:08
  Speaker 4: the iHeart like queer slate of shows. I do talk
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: a lot about these ship but I'm like, but I
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: don't want other people to have to do it, like
• 47:15
  Speaker 4: I'm kind of doing it because like I don't shut up,
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: and I don't know, Like I was like, you know what,
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: I might as well, but I don't want this to
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: be the only option.
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: You know, right, right, you have become a leader now
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: in this kind of conversation and advocate in this. So
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: what advice would you give to others who are maybe
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: starting their own journey.
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think, oh, thank you. I don't
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: know if I call myself a leader, but you are.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: Oh thank you.
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: An I think like, at the end of the day,
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: like I said, I think, regardless of whether if you
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: come out of this and you're actually I think I'm
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: s gender. I think it is healthy for everybody to
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: think a little bit about gender identity and question lero
• 48:06
  Speaker 4: on gender identity. I think that's healthy at the end
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: of the day, Like you are the only one that
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: gets to define who you are, and like.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: That might seem cliche, but like it genuinely is very hard.
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: I mean, it took me a very long time to
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: be open about this again because like I didn't again,
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: I wanted to short hair my entire life. I didn't
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: cut my hair until I was twenty because I was
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: just always told like I was gonna look ugly, it
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: was going to be bad. It was like a terrible decision,
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: I shouldn't do that. And then I cut my hair
• 48:33
  Speaker 4: and I was like wow, I like, literally something that
• 48:35
  Speaker 4: small made such huge difference in my life.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: You are you are the only one that really knows you.
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: I think also something that really really helped me was
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: finding and and again not everybody has this option finding,
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: but I find it if you can, like find other
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: queer and trans people to like have in your life
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: to talk to about these things, that made so much
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: difference because I think, again, like a lot of my
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: friends that originally come out, I had very different experiences
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: from them. But also I think talking to them and
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: hearing about their experience has helped me figure out my own.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: I think at the end of the day.
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: Like talking to even talking to my age, like I said,
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: talking to my sister friends about these things and finding
• 49:09
  Speaker 4: out that their experience was drastically different than mine helped
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: me also realize I was like, oh, a lot of
• 49:14
  Speaker 4: the things that I'm like, Like, there was a very
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: long time where I was like, womanhood is just pain,
• 49:20
  Speaker 4: Like it's just it's it is just pain, Like that
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: is it. And I was like, oh, like that actually
• 49:24
  Speaker 4: is not feminist. That's just me torturing myself at the
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: end of the day. And so yeah, I think have
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: these conversations if you can.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: It is hard.
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: I mean, I again, I didn't like I knew a
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: couple of career people growing up in high school.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: But I most in my early sort of exposure.
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: To the queer community was online, was through you know,
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: things like Tumblr. I think it's a double edged sword
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: because I literally before recording opened up TikTok and there
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: was you know, the latest round of whatever stupid Pride
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: Month discourse. Don't get caught up in the distractions, That's
• 49:59
  Speaker 4: all I'm to say, you know what. It also, don't
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: police other people's identity while.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: You're figuring out your own.
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: There's a way to figure out your own identity and
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: while not getting too entangled with worrying about what other
• 50:09
  Speaker 4: people are doing.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean I think, I think at the
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: end of the day, it's your life.
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: It's your life, and and you should be able to
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: determine what makes you like the truest, happiest version of yourself.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: And also, I mean, I.
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: This is obviously and like I've alluded to this, it's
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: a weird time to be talking about this. I like, again,
• 50:32
  Speaker 4: I feel weird even complaining about the like putting the
• 50:35
  Speaker 4: little non binary check box.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: Because it's like, well now we don't even have that anymore.
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: But also, like things are bad right now.
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: We've gotten through some of the worst, like we as
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: the queer community have gotten through, like within my parents' lifetimes,
• 50:53
  Speaker 4: within my lifetime, because technically sodomy was illegal in Texas
• 50:57
  Speaker 4: until like two.
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: Thousand and three. Within my like it, it was literally
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: illegal to be gay. Like things, people have survived, People
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: are persisted.
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: I think, like, find your community, find your little bubble,
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: you're enclave. Just because the worst, most awful people are
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: like in positions of power right now and making those
• 51:20
  Speaker 4: opinions loud. Humanity at the end of the day, I
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: think humanity is good. I think most people are good.
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: I think most people are willing to change their minds
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: about things. I think, like you know, we literally like
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: studies have shown when people like know people in their
• 51:34
  Speaker 4: life that are trans it changes their perspective on the
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: trans community.
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: People care about each other.
• 51:40
  Speaker 4: So don't also like I want to lose hope right
• 51:43
  Speaker 4: now that this is just going to be all there is.
• 51:46
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it's a good message, and I'm so glad
• 51:53
  Speaker 5: we got to have you on before pride ended.
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: Uh, because yes, yeah, I'll pushing it back. It has
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: been insanely hot in New York today.
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: It's the first say, it's like kind of back to normal,
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: but it's about like in the nineties in New York
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: for like the past two we say in Chicago.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: I was in Chicago last weekend. It was I don't know,
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: it's bad. Yeah, yeah, it's bad. Yes.
• 52:19
  Speaker 5: Well you also we kind of mentioned I don't know
• 52:22
  Speaker 5: if we said specifics because we just count Raquel as
• 52:25
  Speaker 5: our friend. Now, yeah, but Raquel is the host of
• 52:29
  Speaker 5: the show that you work on, Afterlives.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, as mentioned.
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: After Lives marsh P. Johnson out now wherever you got
• 52:37
  Speaker 4: your podcasts. At least the first three episodes are out.
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: I don't know when this.
• 52:41
  Speaker 4: The fourth episode might be out by the time this drops,
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: we'll see, I guess, but please give it a listen.
• 52:46
  Speaker 4: I again, I think, like kind of going back to
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: what I'm saying, I think. I think I I'm a
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: bighostory buff. I think like when things are weird, when
• 52:55
  Speaker 4: stuff is you know, the way it is right now,
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: I think it is important to look to history and
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: look to you know, our ancestors and see like what
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: how they survived, like see the things that I survived,
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: see the like things that they overcame. So I would
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: give that a listen you get into some of those
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: queer elder interviews that I was mentioning before again, fun
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: discussions all the way that, yeah, we've always kind of
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: been here a lot of There were a couple people
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: that we interviewed who I think like they they more
• 53:24
  Speaker 4: or less identified as on binary. They would have said
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: it in different terms because again, it's it's the language
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: has changed. But I was like, oh, I'm hearing you
• 53:31
  Speaker 4: talk about your experience and I'm seeing my own reflected
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: in that, like I've I've had, Like, it's we have
• 53:36
  Speaker 4: always been here, and I think history is a great
• 53:39
  Speaker 4: way to kind of remind ourselves of that. So anyways,
• 53:42
  Speaker 4: listen to Afterlives marsh by Johnson.
• 53:45
  Speaker 5: Yes, yes, absolutely, and thank you because you helped set
• 53:50
  Speaker 5: up that interview with for Kel of course, Yeah, thank you, Joey. Well,
• 53:55
  Speaker 5: where else can the good listeners find you?
• 53:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you can find me on and Instagram. I have
• 54:02
  Speaker 4: that PC front pressing that I wrote on my Instagram
• 54:06
  Speaker 4: that is at pat not Pratt. That is p A
• 54:09
  Speaker 4: T T n O T p R A T t uh.
• 54:12
  Speaker 4: People get my last name wrong a lot, uh. You
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: can find me there. That's also my Twitter but I
• 54:17
  Speaker 4: don't really use that much lately. And yeah, yeah, check
• 54:22
  Speaker 4: out Afterlives. You can also listen to Uh there Are
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: No Girls on the Internet, which is with another friend
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: of the show, Bridge Todd also work on that one.
• 54:32
  Speaker 5: But yeah, yes, and past episodes over here.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, and I'll be back. I'll do more a new
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: election stuff right.
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: I was gonna say, like I need to come back
• 54:43
  Speaker 4: on and do it like a fine like Superhero. We
• 54:48
  Speaker 4: haven't done our Twilight Rappo.
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: And then we also need to bring you back on
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: for Sex in the City because we're still on that
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: as well, and I love of attached to that.
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: It makes me very happy.
• 54:59
  Speaker 4: I did Ben the Hire Show after watching like one
• 55:01
  Speaker 4: episode of The Eyes and was like that honestly, I
• 55:05
  Speaker 4: loved it, like watching I watched it last summer and
• 55:07
  Speaker 4: it was like I needed that, it was it was
• 55:11
  Speaker 4: It's great. I did also recently watch the movie like
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: for the first time, Oh you watched the movie?
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: That was like I so much happened. That was just
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: I like, literally like I fit.
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: There were multiple points in the movie where I was like, oh,
• 55:24
  Speaker 4: it's the end, It's almost over, and I would like
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: click on the thing and be like we are twenty
• 55:27
  Speaker 4: minutes in.
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: There's so much happens. They don't make movies like that anymore.
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: Oh that's exciting. Oh oh well, I cannot wait for one.
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: I'm excited for this.
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: I am kind of on that, not two.
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: I know, the like new the like reboot has like
• 55:48
  Speaker 4: a really awful like attempt to try to do like
• 55:52
  Speaker 4: non binary stuff or whatever. Like like I'm kind of
• 55:56
  Speaker 4: like morbidly attempted to watch it and just see how bad.
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: It because it's it's a whole thing, and I don't
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: know what the new seasons are, like yeah, and just
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: like that, we watched the first season.
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: And I was like, huh interesting. Interesting.
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: All I know is there's a guy that I went
• 56:15
  Speaker 4: to college with who has like a small role in it.
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: And I only know this because I still follow him
• 56:19
  Speaker 4: on Instagram from like the one class we took together,
• 56:21
  Speaker 4: and he keeps posting about it and I'm like, wait,
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: like that's good.
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: Anyways, I don't know, it's so weird to see like
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: people that I like. That is kind I don't know.
• 56:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, anyways, that's a whole story, you know, like you're
• 56:35
  Speaker 4: actually doing things that's crazy.
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: But also Joey they carry is a podcaster?
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, podcast. So it's a radio show. Yes,
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: oh yes, he says it's a podcast.
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: They say it's a podcast.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: But you got you have to just go take a
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: chance what you're saying. Chut'll check it out. I'll check
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: it out, you know. Yeah, whoa, Okay, that's for laters.
• 57:08
  Speaker 5: Many many things to come back and discuss.
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: Joey. We always love having you. Thank you so much
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: for coming on. We know this was a big like,
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: can you come on.
• 57:18
  Speaker 4: Of course, yeah, copya, thanks for letting me ramble for
• 57:22
  Speaker 4: an hour.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: Always love it till next time, next time.
• 57:29
  Speaker 5: But in the meantime, listeners that you can contact us
• 57:32
  Speaker 5: if you would like, You can email us at Hello
• 57:34
  Speaker 5: A stuff neever told you, dot Com, provide us on
• 57:36
  Speaker 5: Blue Sky, I'm mo on stuff podcast or Instagram and
• 57:38
  Speaker 5: TikTok and stuff we Never told you. We're also on
• 57:40
  Speaker 5: YouTube and we have a book you can get wherever
• 57:41
  Speaker 5: you get your books. Thanks z always too, our super
• 57:44
  Speaker 5: producer Christina or executive producer, my anti contributor, Joey. Thank you,
• 57:48
  Speaker 5: Thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never told you.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: Production by Heart Radio. For more podcasts from My Heart
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: Radio You
• 57:52
  Speaker 5: Can check out the heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or
• 57:54
  Speaker 5: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.