Latest / StartUp Health NOW Podcast / Inside MUTU System: Clinical Validation, Real Outcomes, and a Global Mission to Transform Core & Pelvic Health for Women

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Inside MUTU System: Clinical Validation, Real Outcomes, and a Global Mission to Transform Core & Pelvic Health for Women · StartUp Health NOW Podcast

• 0:00
  [on-hold music] Hi, welcome.
• 0:04
  My name is Unity Stoakes, co-founder at Startup Health, and today I get to speak with longtime health transformer, Wendy Powell, who is the CEO and founder of MUTU Systems, part of Startup Health's Women's Health Moonshot.
• 0:19
  Wendy Powell is gonna give us a full update on all the progress that MUTU Health is making. Stick around. [upbeat music] Hi, Wendy. Welcome. How are you? Thank you so much. I'm extremely well. How are you? I'm great.
• 0:36
  Are you Zooming in from London, or where are you today? No, I live in the far southwest of the UK, down in Cornwall, so down by the seaside, which is very nice, but it's a long way from anywhere. Beautiful.
• 0:48
  You're in the UK, and I'm really excited to catch up with you because I know you're making tons of progress over at MUTU. We wanna share all the amazing updates with the world.
• 1:00
  You're one of the leaders of our Women's Health Moonshot, and maybe just to kick things off, a reminder to the world on what you're creating with MUTU and what your vision is. Absolutely.
• 1:13
  MUTU System is a digital platform for inclusive, accessible pelvic floor and core health, but it covers...
• 1:21
  Because pelvic floor and core are not isolated issues, it covers whole body, so we're talking about functional movement and full body wellness, all accessible through a browser-based app, so super easy, accessible from any device.
• 1:35
  And we're clinically validated.
• 1:37
  We have a whole bunch of amazing doctors that work with us, who recommend and advocate for our work, and we're reaching hundreds of thousands of women through this very simple to access, uh, series of exercise videos and community.
• 1:52
  That's a really important part of what we do. Group coaching, as well as, as well as empowered self-managed treatment and management of these symptoms.
• 2:01
  So we're talking about symptoms that affect women throughout their entire lives. They're not just perinatal p- con- conditions.
• 2:08
  Things like core and pelvic floor health around bladder leaks, around prolapse symptoms, lower back pain, diastasis recti, all these sorts of things that affect us physically and, of course, have a lot of emotional- Mm...
• 2:22
  baggage and repercussions as well around mental health and emotional wellness.
• 2:27
  So we're tackling all of those issues, and we're doing it worldwide to women, direct to consumer, and we're- And it's, it's a membership model that, that women can just get access to and join the community via the online or via the app?
• 2:41
  Correct. So we're a monthly or annual subscription, nice and simple, direct to consumer.
• 2:46
  We also work with some health systems, so we have a contract within the NHS in the UK, whereby GPs and some medical professionals can prescribe MUTU so it's free at the point of delivery to the patient.
• 2:58
  And we also are working with some corporations and organizations on employee wellness.
• 3:02
  So there's a number of ways that she might access it, but the simplest way is simply to, to, yes, go online and sign up for a subscription.
• 3:10
  Yeah, one of the things you've mentioned is just the fact that it's evidence-based, it's medically, clinically validated. I think that's a really important element to what you've built.
• 3:21
  What was that process like in terms of when you were building this? How did you go about building your solution and making sure that it was safe, effective, validated, et cetera?
• 3:32
  So it came about, Unity, from my own experiences. So my background isn't medical. I'm not a medical professional. I come from a fitness and wellness background.
• 3:40
  So I was a personal trainer, specializing and certified in, in specialist pre and postnatal work specifically at that time.
• 3:47
  Then I had my babies and all of the process that went along with that, and what I learned very much about what... I learned what I didn't know about recovery and rehabilitation.
• 3:56
  And so it was out of that MUTU was born, and the way that I then reached out to medical professionals to check, as you say, obviously, is it safe, and to take it from there with regards to collaboration from medics, was this was before the days of Instagram, so this was Twitter at the time.
• 4:12
  And so I was reaching out to predominantly women's health physiotherapists or physical therapists, 'cause that's the closest to, to the actual practice of what we do, in the States, in the UK, in Australia, around the world, sending them the stuff that I was making, so the videos and the ideas and the concepts, sending them to them and saying literally that, "Is this safe?
• 4:32
  Would you give this to your patients? Is this good homework? Is this good pre one-to-one work or post one-to-one work?" Because...
• 4:40
  And what I found was that was a stage that a lot of people in that physical therapy work especially, there was nothing in between.
• 4:48
  So it would be somebody would come to them or be treated by them for quite acute conditions, so let's say for example, prolapse symptoms or incontinence. They would treat that.
• 4:57
  They would get that better through, through physical therapy, but then she was on her own, and it was like, okay, so now what? Boot camp, CrossFit, running. Yeah. So it was...
• 5:06
  And there was nowhere to send her in that meantime.
• 5:08
  So that's very much a, one of the many places in the referral pathway, but that's one key pathway referral touchpoint for us, which is we are somewhere safe that medical professionals can send women to when they're dealing with these sorts of symptoms.
• 5:23
  Yeah, I love... And I know you have a lot of your research and papers right on your website at MUTU. It's mutusystem.com. mutusystem.com, yeah.
• 5:32
  Uh, and I think that's really helpful 'cause you open up access to a lot of the education, a lot of the research, a lot of the validation, which I think is very important.
• 5:40
  You mentioned something that I think is really important. There's a community aspect here too, the support infrastructure of the women together. I saw the MUTU Mamas.
• 5:53
  I thought there was a lot of really meaningful elements there. Can you talk a little bit about that aspect of the MUTU System?Absolutely. It's an incredibly important part of what we offer.
• 6:04
  And the MUTU mamas, that was actually named by the community when, back in the day when we would... we were a Facebook group, and they actually called themselves the MUTU mamas, so it stuck, so that's what they are.
• 6:14
  But we have a, within our membership site, which is where our members and users access all of their resources and videos, there's a community within that. So they don't have to go anywhere else.
• 6:24
  They're not on a social media platform. They're within our membership space.
• 6:27
  And it's such an important part of the offering because, yes, they get to support one another and cheer each other on, and they share their pictures and their photographs and their progress and their, their recipes and all sorts of things that, that are associated with their journey.
• 6:42
  But what they can also get is, of course, support from me and my team. So they can ask questions directly within this community called MUTU Mama Connect.
• 6:50
  They can ask their questions, and we're in there pretty much every day answering their questions.
• 6:54
  So we are, whilst we're a, a tech platform, and there is a lot of automation obviously around the way that the process and access works, we're human where human counts.
• 7:04
  So when it comes to actually asking their questions,
• 7:07
  people get stuck following programs, and I think th- this is a really important distinction, as you, you mentioned community's important because engagement and trust and compliance to actually following a program, any kind of exercise regime or wellness program, it's the compliance and the engagement which is the hard part.
• 7:27
  That's where people drop off because they get stuck, or they get fearful, or they drop it for a few days or a few weeks and they don't know how to come back on.
• 7:35
  So that's where that community element is really super important, that they have access to us as a team. And of course, we can signpost where more, more medical signposting is required.
• 7:45
  So we have a really good resource where we can send women when they need further help. That's really amazing.
• 7:52
  I have this thesis I've been kind of thinking a lot about more and more over the past, let's call it two, two years for sure, but you mentioned social media.
• 8:03
  We're in this post-ChatGPT world of AI where people have access to maybe push stuff out via social media or absorb content in or just start to have conversations with these chatbots.
• 8:18
  But I think given this new world, community, direct connection, having those types of relationships and bonds with each other, with other people going through shared lived experiences becomes even more relevant in this new kind of world of extreme technology that we're all living in.
• 8:40
  Eh, what are you seeing in the community? What are you learning? What are you noticing in that regard? So many things. It's a really interesting point, and it's the...
• 8:49
  because it has changed, obviously, the way that, that people, that all of us access information and find out information, especially within the health and fitness world. And what I'm finding is that,
• 9:01
  so the basic education, for example, an example might be of, from our, from the blog on our education site, what is diastasis recti, or why do you get stress incontinence?
• 9:11
  If you simply want to know the answers to a factual question like that, as you say, that's incredibly simple to get.
• 9:16
  They don't need to come to us for that sort of thing, although we do obviously provide it in very factual, plain English terms. But where it matters is around that community element, because it's one thing to,
• 9:28
  it's one thing to find out basic information or education, but what should it feel like? How do I know when I'm doing it right? How do I get back on the wagon when I've fallen off? Where do I start again?
• 9:40
  It felt like that. Is that right? And all of our bodies are obviously unique.
• 9:46
  And because many of the women in our community have had children, had babies, they've birthed children in whatever way and however long ago, but those experiences too are very individual to them, and they will have very often repercussions, both physical and possibly emotional and psychological as well.
• 10:03
  So to be able to actually talk about those sorts of things in a place where not only are you safe in the sense of that it is a dedicated community, but you are actually talking to people that have evidence-based information for you.
• 10:17
  'Cause of course, that's the other big problem, that's the downside on the social media front, which is we are bombarded, of course, all of us daily with advice and information, and the wellness world is absolutely rife with that.
• 10:31
  Most people have got a pill to, or a supplement to, to match whatever it is that, whatever your problem might be. And it's very difficult for people to decipher what's the evidence-based stuff.
• 10:43
  So that's where we take our community of medical ambassadors and our board of medical advisors, and they've always been involved with MUTU since the early days, and we've been doing this for well over a decade.
• 10:53
  But it's where their input becomes so much more important so that the women and the, the people using our platform, they know that what they're getting is not only evidence-based, but it's being backed by doctors.
• 11:04
  They can get their questions answered. And we've, of course, had trials and due diligence through the NHS in the UK as well for that extra layer. So you started in, in the UK, and you're...
• 11:16
  it's amazing the work you're doing with the NHS. You're also global. Can you talk a little bit about that?
• 11:22
  And are there certain regions that you're noticing that are getting more ad- adoption, or is your longer term dream that this should really be accessible to all women everywhere?
• 11:34
  Are you noticing different cultural issues in different regions? I'm very curious about this because obviously I think this is a universal
• 11:44
  issue or need for women, so I'm very curious about what you're learning, what your vision is, and just what, what you've seen to date. Yeah, absolutely. The vision, if we start there, is very much accessible to millions.
• 11:58
  That's what we want. That's where we want to get to. And that's where our work with systems like the NHS comes into it, because obviously we have a direct consumer business.
• 12:06
  That's the foundation of how we've built and how we've built our evidence base, that, our real world evidence base and our product market fit. And that-... level of validation.
• 12:16
  But whilst Mutu System is not expensive to buy, that's obviously a relative term, and so it's a, it's $100 to $200 US for a year's access.
• 12:25
  Now, that's perfectly accessible to many people, and it's absolutely not to many others.
• 12:29
  So it's, it's that level of accessibility and equity of access to this, to the, these resources and this education and this program.
• 12:38
  That's why literally we wanted to work with the NHS so that it is accessible because, of course, what we're seeing, and this is, uh, uh, finally getting a lot more, a lot more attention, which is the inequities around access of healthcare and outcomes, and especially within maternal care and women's health.
• 12:58
  So what we're seeing very much is these stats that are absolutely indisputable around the likelihood of Black women and brown-skinned women being more likely to die during childbirth and to have equally, to have multiple other conditions that are undiagnosed or go unnoticed or untreated for too long.
• 13:17
  So all of these elements around inequities within maternal health is something that we're very active in, in... We're, we're working with NHS England and with the government ministers on this as well, around
• 13:29
  making sure that is coming into the forefront because that element of accessibility and inclusion so that everybody can access this information is something that is so often a checkbox or a last-minute layer or a kind of, "Oh, yes, we must...
• 13:46
  We've got to do the inclusive thing," and adding that on at the end, and that's just not how it works.
• 13:50
  It's like this, if digital health, if any health a- resource is going to be truly accessible to people, that needs to be built in from the beginning, which is how we've built Mutu's.
• 14:01
  And that goes right through to the diversity of the women that you see within the program, different body sizes, different ethnicities, different ages, different life stages.
• 14:11
  So those, that, that element is really important to us and, and that, coming back to the scaling element, we want to be accessible and engaging to everybody. Let's dig into this because- Mm...
• 14:24
  a lot of leaders are gonna be listening to this, a lot of CEOs, decision-makers, different leaders from different types of organizations, and I think it's really important that we crack the code on this.
• 14:37
  We need women everywhere to get access to your platform and platforms like this. If you were to wave a magic wand, who are the types of organizations that, that you're trying to reach, that should be contacting you?
• 14:51
  Is it everyone from large employers to payers to even governments? Give, give us a little...
• 14:59
  If your wish list would be helpful because we really wanna make sure people know about this opportunity so we can increase the access.
• 15:08
  I would say that employers is probably a great place to start with that, Unity, because it's... We're talking about across-the-board benefits.
• 15:16
  Now, obviously, the way employee benefits works varies state to state, country to country, but essentially when women are able to access this kind of healthcare through their employer, so I'll give an ex- We often hear about it from a professional point of view.
• 15:31
  So for example, we work with a, a couple big legal firms in London where their people have access to Mutu. That's great.
• 15:37
  These are professional women, and they will have challenges around getting their job done whilst dealing with physical challenges.
• 15:44
  But it's important that we also have in mind those scenarios where, of other types of work. So let's take, for example, blue-collar workers. Let's take a woman that works on the checkout at Walmart, for example.
• 15:57
  Now, if she's dealing with any of these sort of pelvic health symptoms that, that we address, so I'm talking about incontinence or prolapse symptoms, pelvic pain, then
• 16:06
  the fact she's working sh- a shift for a start, she may not be able to get up and go to the bathroom as frequently as she might need or want to.
• 16:14
  As a result of that, she's uncomfortable, she's unfocused, and she's less productive. That's gonna apply whatever the sort of job that it is that you're doing.
• 16:21
  On top of that, so that she doesn't need to keep going to the bathroom e- when that's difficult or inconvenient or not possible, she's gonna drink less fluids, for example.
• 16:31
  We hear this all the time from workers who are on their feet all the time.
• 16:34
  Healthcare workers, ironically, are very likely to say this but because they're on shift work, because they're incredibly busy, because they're on their feet all the time, going to the bathroom as frequently, for example, as they need to is not always possible, so they drink less.
• 16:49
  Now, obvi- we all know we need to be hydrated. When we drink less, we're gonna be less healthy, less... They're not eating as well.
• 16:55
  Another example is likely to be that if a woman is dealing with, for example, incontinence, bladder leaks, pain, discomfort, she is not going to go and join the gym or go to an exercise class because she's uncomfortable, she's possibly intimidated, and she's literally worried she's gonna pee her pants while she's there.
• 17:14
  So it's, th- so these are the knock-on effects in that it affects all of our life and wellness. It affects our intimate relationships. It affects our work productivity.
• 17:24
  It affects how we show up in everyday life for family, community, and at work.
• 17:28
  So these are issues that are affecting women's productivity and engagement and success at work, and importantly, she's not going to mention them to you. Yeah. So talking to employers, she's not gonna tell you that's why.
• 17:44
  Yeah.
• 17:45
  I wanna dig into this because what, what do more men need to know, and I guess you're telling us r- right now, because a lot of these decision-makers in a lot of l- employers or wherever are men and might not even be thinking about this for obvious reasons.
• 18:02
  But I think we gotta change that paradigm as quickly as possible. What-- How can we do that? What-- You're doing that just by being a leader of the women's health, one, one of the leaders of our women's health moonshot.
• 18:14
  But maybe take us into the future of what do more m- what should more men... How can we be more helpful in solving this or getting more access here? What should we be doing?For sure.
• 18:26
  Let's start with how frequent or how common these issues are, Unity, because so often many issues within women's health especially are considered niche issues or that they're on the sidelines.
• 18:36
  One third of women will be dealing with urinary incontinence in some form throughout their lives, a third of them.
• 18:42
  50%, half, who have ever had a baby will have prolapse symptoms, p- pelvic organ prolapse symptoms of, at some level in their lives.
• 18:50
  These are hugely common issues, and sadly they're often thought of as issues because- almost because they're so common, they're often considered to be normal. They're considered to be inevitable.
• 19:01
  You had a baby, you're getting older, you're in perimenopause, your estrogen's dropping, whatever it might be. It seems that at every life stage, women are told to a- simply accept that these changes are inevitable.
• 19:12
  And for example, bladder leaks is one of those that is very often thought of as inevitable. Women might talk about it. They might even laugh about it, that they pee when they sneeze or when they laugh or when they jump.
• 19:24
  She won't get up to dance, that's why. She's not gonna tell you that's why. She doesn't wanna go to that social event, she's not gonna tell you that's why.
• 19:31
  So there's-- I think the, the main thing to understand is that these, these issues around women's health, around pelvic health are incredibly common, but they don't have to be normalized, and we can do something about them.
• 19:45
  And the way that, that more employers and people in positions of, of influence and power in, when they're, have teams of women and teams that they look after, is to make these sort of things like MUTU System available.
• 19:58
  So there are things, there are many things that forward-thinking companies do to make certain issues around women's health more comfortable at work.
• 20:05
  An example would be period products in the toilets readily ava- available. D- different air conditioning or windows open or flexibility around parenting or around menopause time, all of those sorts of things.
• 20:17
  They're all great, and they are all showing that you care, they're showing that you see her, and they're showing flexibility and, and help in managing things. And I think that's where the distinction lies.
• 20:30
  All of those, all of those provisions, they help women manage symptoms that they're dealing with.
• 20:36
  When we bring MUTU into it, we can actually help fix those symptoms, so we're not just managing the fact that you might wet yourself or you're, that you're uncomfortable, that you're dealing with back pain because of a weak core, those kinds of things.
• 20:50
  We're actually going to fix them. So I think the first thing is it's incredibly common. Just because she's not talking to you about it, I can guarantee that's, doesn't mean it's not happening.
• 21:00
  And secondly, within a employee environment, for example, she's not going to raise her hand and tell you that these are the issues that are affecting her.
• 21:10
  We often say to the employer partners that we work with, "We have these conversations so you don't have to." You don't particularly want to talk about her prolapse any more than she wants to talk to you about it.
• 21:19
  [laughs] So what you can do is, is, is make these provisions so that she has access to a program to, to MUTU System, and we take care of all of that for her.
• 21:28
  But you are giving that provision and you're, you're showing that care by providing that, and you will see the benefits in productivity and engagement and happiness and success at work. This is very helpful.
• 21:42
  Where should people go to get in touch with you? Just go to... What's the best avenue to, in terms of a business potential opportunities, where do you wanna send people? Probably LinkedIn is the easiest place, Unity.
• 21:57
  So I'm on LinkedIn, Wendy Powell, MUTU System, or my email is very simply wendy@mutusystem.com. But LinkedIn is probably the easiest place. Amazing.
• 22:07
  And what's, what's the next year, what's the next couple of years look like? What's your take on we're in-- it seems like we're, we are definitely in this moment of transition in the world of technology.
• 22:20
  How does this impact your roadmap? How does this impact how you're thinking about how you scale and the opportunity before MUTU?
• 22:29
  I think it's a great opportunity when it comes to scaling because the, our, our sort of sweet spot is in a hybrid of that automation or that AI work. But also, as I said, human where human makes sense.
• 22:40
  And so whilst we never will lose that human touch and that human element, I think when it comes to scaling into much bigger, uh, as you say, business to business type routes for MUTU System in that triage element, 'cause we've got women coming to us at all different life stages.
• 22:57
  Some are pregnant, some are newly postpartum, some have much older kids, perimenopause, menopause.
• 23:02
  So I think that there's really exciting opportunities around scaling and technology in terms of that triage element right at the start, and finding out...
• 23:11
  We already find out what symptoms are you dealing with, and we signpost her accordingly.
• 23:14
  But I think to be able to deal with all of those different, the different nuances of the symptoms that she's dealing with and the life stage that's appropriate to her, I think there's really exciting opportunities for us to really make that personalized pathway right from the start for her at scale.
• 23:29
  Incredible. We need more women leaders. We need more women entrepreneurs. What's your experience been like, maybe share with... A, a lot of founders, a lot of entrepreneurs also will listen to this.
• 23:41
  What are some of your biggest lessons learned and some of your experiences been like? Gosh, okay, so that goes o- over, well over a decade. So [laughs] I've been this, I've been running this startup for quite some time.
• 23:52
  I think probably the... I've had all different sized teams. I've done it all sorts of ways, and I mentor quite a lot of startups through a femtech lab organization based in London as well as others.
• 24:03
  And I think probably what I come up against the most when coming across these amazing women who are starting out with these incredible innovations in women's health especially, that's obviously my area, is that i- it's, I really try to help them to understand that there are many ways of doing this.
• 24:18
  For example, MUTU is not VC-funded. We're bootstrapped and always have been.
• 24:22
  And I think there's an awfu- there's a lot of people coming into the entrepreneurial space, and certainly in the health tech space, where there is an assumption that there is one route to do that.
• 24:32
  And so I think what I work with them on a lot is actually on quite a, on a more personal level in the sense of this is-You're an entrepreneur, which means you have an unbelievable passion and drive and knowledge and expertise around this issue that you're dealing with.
• 24:47
  And very often we find, I know you do at Startup Health, find that it comes from a personal story in some sense, and so it's bringing that into it, and where do you want this to go and who do you wanna reach?
• 24:59
  And not being, whilst obviously we all need advice and mentorship and coaching and plenty of input and a- a- advice, is also to stay clear on your goal of what is it you're actually trying to do. Mm-hmm.
• 25:11
  And that's w- with MUTU System, we simply want more women to access these resources and this education and empowerment so that they feel better about themselves and get on with their lives. So it's keeping...
• 25:22
  It's staying on that moonshot, isn't it? It's staying on- It is. It is... what's the goal? Where are you trying to go with this? Yeah.
• 25:28
  When you have that purpose, you have that mission, and such an important reminder, there's a lot of different paths, and it- Yeah... doesn't all require funding. In fact, the bootstrap approach is extraordinary.
• 25:41
  I love how you have your direct to consumer, and you're expanding through kind of the enterprise and through these other strategic relationships.
• 25:51
  I think that's brilliant, and we've seen a lot of companies be very successful with that approach.
• 25:57
  So congratulations to all you've created so far, and all we know that you are creating and where you're going in the future.
• 26:05
  You're just absolutely an inspiration to so many Health Transformers in our community, but also ar- around the world. So Wendy, thank you for doing what you do.
• 26:15
  And again, Wendy Powell, mutusystem.com, and you'll be able to find her at LinkedIn as well. So thank you, Wendy. Thank you so much.
• 26:26
  [outro music] And finally, an invitation to all of the extraordinary Health Transformers.
• 26:34
  Whether you are a startup, someone building the future of health, or whether you are an investor, funder, or buyer of the solutions out there in the marketplace, this is an invitation to you to join the Startup Health member community.
• 26:49
  Learn more at startuphealth.com. Look forward to hopefully seeing you soon. [outro music]