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Further Exploring The 48 Laws of Power Part III Laws 11-14 · Business Roundtable

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  Speaker 1: Welcome back everybody. Here we are on the Business Round
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  Speaker 1: Teable podcast. We've got a group of great, amazing returning
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  Speaker 1: guests because we're picking up on a topic that we've
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  Speaker 1: had a couple episodes on based on the book forty
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  Speaker 1: eight Laws of Power by Robert Green here. So those
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  Speaker 1: you are watching along, I've got the book up on
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  Speaker 1: the screen. For those of you that are listening for
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  Speaker 1: the first time, you can definitely go back to our
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  Speaker 1: previously episodes. We've got part one and two in this series,
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  Speaker 1: or to continue on tonight again. My name David Carr
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  Speaker 1: here of Steward Your Business. I help business owners and
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  Speaker 1: their teams lead their teams well as a coaching consultant,
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  Speaker 1: particularly specializing in the AEC, architecture, engineering, environmental consulting industries.
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  Speaker 1: So I'm going to throw it just do a brief
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  Speaker 1: introduction with everybody. We have Bill Hatch back. Bill, welcome,
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  Speaker 1: Thank you, love all your energy, and you've you've contributed
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  Speaker 1: on a few other different podcasts in between this one,
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  Speaker 1: so glad to have you back. And we got Mo
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  Speaker 1: too because Moe and Bill run another episode we did
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  Speaker 1: on writing a book for brand Authority and all that
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  Speaker 1: which was fantastic.
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  Speaker 2: MO. Welcome back.
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  Speaker 3: Hey, Hey, thanks for having me.
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  Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, and we've got our fearless kind of leader
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  Speaker 1: in this particular topic.
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  Speaker 2: Who's going to facilitate this tonight, doc C? Welcome back.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you so much, appreciate it absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: So you're the one that introduced this book to the podcast.
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  Speaker 1: You're familiar with it. This is new to me. Moe
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  Speaker 1: has had some experience with the book Bill and Bill
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  Speaker 1: and I were new to it, doc C. And so
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  Speaker 1: you know, I appreciate you bringing this in and maybe
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  Speaker 1: just kind of set the stage again, so somebodyho's catching
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  Speaker 1: this episode for the first time, maybe, you know, just
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  Speaker 1: help us understand that the basis of this book, doc C.
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  Speaker 1: And we'll jump into the Ala eleven to get us going.
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  Speaker 4: But just so, yeah, yeah, I read this book years back,
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  Speaker 4: and I thought it was quite fascinating and kind of
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  Speaker 4: what MO talked a little bit about before we started.
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  Speaker 5: You know, a lot of people aren't fans of this book,
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  Speaker 5: but I think that what's important for people to actually
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  Speaker 5: pick a copy of this book and read it is
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  Speaker 5: to understand how power works and can work either for
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  Speaker 5: you or even against you. And I think that that's
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  Speaker 5: what these forty eight laws. I mean, I'm pretty sure
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  Speaker 5: that we can all come up with some other laws
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  Speaker 5: as well. But it's an eye opener to actually see
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  Speaker 5: or at least read and find out what's really happening
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  Speaker 5: in the corporate world. So I guess that's why we
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  Speaker 5: you know, I thought this would be a good topic
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  Speaker 5: for us to talk about and see what everybody thinks
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  Speaker 5: about it, and even the people that viewing our podcast.
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  Speaker 5: So we started finish it's almost like we can only
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  Speaker 5: get five in and the hour, so we are on
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  Speaker 5: number eleven. So those of you that are listening to
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  Speaker 5: the podcast, I want to go back and look at
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  Speaker 5: one through ten. It would be great, or of course,
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  Speaker 5: by the book, so let's start with eleven.
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  Speaker 2: Yep.
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  Speaker 4: So eleven says and I like actually eleven, especially if
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  Speaker 4: I'm a youngster working for a company. It says, learn
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  Speaker 4: to keep people dependent on you, you know, in other.
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  Speaker 5: Words, make your superior or managers or whatever dependent on you.
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  Speaker 5: And I really like this one because the more you
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  Speaker 5: do that, guess what, you become more valuable to them.
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  Speaker 5: What's your thought on.
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  Speaker 2: It, David, Yeah, this was an interesting one.
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  Speaker 1: As I was reading through this book, they talk about
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  Speaker 1: this book about this king and Bismarck and how he
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  Speaker 1: was how he figured out how to position himself, and
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  Speaker 1: he didn't go to the powerful people. He went to
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  Speaker 1: kind of the less powerful to become good in what
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  Speaker 1: you're saying, doxy, to like, become more they they became
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  Speaker 1: more dependent on him. I could see how this could
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  Speaker 1: go both ways, and I like how this book always
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  Speaker 1: has a reversal power angle on it as well. Sure,
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  Speaker 1: but are you The way I look at it is
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  Speaker 1: are you providing more value? Are you providing? Are you
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  Speaker 1: helping more? Are you contributing more? Are you taking more?
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  Speaker 1: And I want to be one. The way I look
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  Speaker 1: at it is in a powerful way, coming from a
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  Speaker 1: place of abundance, coming to a place where I have
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  Speaker 1: a lot to give in so that people are That
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  Speaker 1: to me, is the good place to come from. I
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  Speaker 1: also thought about this. You talked about corporate doxy and
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  Speaker 1: we're in political season right now, right We're going into
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  Speaker 1: the presidential election and all this stuff, and I realized
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  Speaker 1: this can be used against you in the same way too. Politically,
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  Speaker 1: we're a power where people try to try to keep
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  Speaker 1: people in dependent upon the power, right, And and it's
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  Speaker 1: not out of serving their own good. It's it's it's
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  Speaker 1: more self serving, and so I think you have to
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  Speaker 1: be careful about how you're wielding this power. But that
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  Speaker 1: was just kind of the first thoughts that came to mind.
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  Speaker 1: I'd love to hear some more thoughts on it, because again,
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  Speaker 1: I'm just totally coming through.
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  Speaker 5: But you know, good mom, what's your what's your thoughts
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  Speaker 5: on on this long number eleven?
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  Speaker 3: Well, you know, doctor c I'm the I'm the antithesis
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  Speaker 3: of this. I am the i am the try forty
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  Speaker 3: eight laws. I'm the I'm definitely contrarian on this one
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  Speaker 3: for sure.
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  Speaker 2: Uh.
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  Speaker 3: The the concept itself, I find it to be self
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  Speaker 3: servicing power at the expense of others, domination through manipulation
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  Speaker 3: in this time that we're in, and I think it's
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  Speaker 3: great for politicians. But as someone who does leadership training,
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  Speaker 3: these laws, all of them is this you know, we're
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  Speaker 3: talking about law leven, but all of them, I don't
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  Speaker 3: believe that it is ideal for a leader because it
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  Speaker 3: would create a dysfunctional culture. Imagine operating under a leader
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  Speaker 3: that this was their go to guide and they did
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  Speaker 3: these things, this is how they treated everyone there and
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  Speaker 3: therefore created a culture where everyone is operating this way.
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  Speaker 3: I believe in the laws of love rather than the
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  Speaker 3: laws of exercising power and control over other people. So
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  Speaker 3: why would I want anyone to be dependent on me.
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  Speaker 3: I would rather there be interdependence. I would rather empower
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  Speaker 3: people to where they are not dependent on me. So
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  Speaker 3: as a pastor, I don't teach people to come to
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  Speaker 3: me when you need prayer. I teach them how to
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  Speaker 3: pray for themselves. I don't teach them that you need
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  Speaker 3: to figure out what scripture says you got to come
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  Speaker 3: to me because I'm the only one with the answer. No,
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  Speaker 3: that's feeding my ego. If I'm pushing them to God,
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  Speaker 3: then I want them to know how to get there
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  Speaker 3: on their own. I want my people and my culture
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  Speaker 3: for my business. I want them to be able to
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  Speaker 3: solve a problem, not have to come to me. And
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  Speaker 3: so this is a challenge for leaders because if everyone
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  Speaker 3: is dependent on you, what happens is people stop doing
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  Speaker 3: the work because you insist on kind of micromanaging, or
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  Speaker 3: it has to be done your way, or it has
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  Speaker 3: to be done through you. So yeah, I'm kind of
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  Speaker 3: on the other side of eleven. Learn to empower people
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  Speaker 3: to be interdependent with you.
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  Speaker 5: I'll tell you no, I love it because that's exactly
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  Speaker 5: what I mean your comment comments are. That's perfect because
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  Speaker 5: that's exactly why we're going through these because one that
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  Speaker 5: deals with cultures, as as I have done in the past,
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  Speaker 5: a lot of cultures are so dysfunctioning for these reasons
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  Speaker 5: for them, for the laws that have been in place,
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  Speaker 5: and the egos and all of those things. And it
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  Speaker 5: takes people like yourself, Mowed and even even the David
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  Speaker 5: and we're going to get to you in a minute,
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  Speaker 5: but this is exactly why we're going through this, because
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  Speaker 5: the more that people are aware of these things, the
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  Speaker 5: better they're going to be. For sure.
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  Speaker 3: Built we're in Pe and m and A.
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  Speaker 6: Right, what's that?
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  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, you're in Pe and m and A as well, right, yeah,
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  Speaker 3: huh okay, So imagine because because I've been in there
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  Speaker 3: for a while as well, imagine you know, you're coming
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  Speaker 3: into a culture and there's some people who are operating
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  Speaker 3: this way. Whereas you want to increase efficiency, you want
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  Speaker 3: to automate, you want to add systems, you want to
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  Speaker 3: make sure that everybody is bringing value to their full potential.
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  Speaker 3: But there's people in there who are intentionally making it
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  Speaker 3: so everyone who is their superior titular wise, and those
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  Speaker 3: who they're they're responsible for are totally dependent on them. Man,
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  Speaker 3: that is going to cause a big problem, especially in
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  Speaker 3: a big transition like an M and A.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah it well it does. And you know, just figure
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  Speaker 5: that what you're saying is that, look, that culture is
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  Speaker 5: is tough enough, and then you bring in egos and.
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  Speaker 4: All these other things. It's, uh, it's pretty dynamic. Let's
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  Speaker 4: go to you, Bill, what what's your what's your thoughts
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  Speaker 4: on the level?
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  Speaker 6: Well, I think I'd have to fall more on most
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  Speaker 6: sides than than on the mister Greenside. You know, this
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  Speaker 6: is a dangerous one. You know, you can use it
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  Speaker 6: for for a lot of bad, bad things, and it
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  Speaker 6: definitely should serve as a warning to too people who
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  Speaker 6: are looking out for people using this on them.
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  Speaker 2: You know.
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  Speaker 6: Uh, Well, I liked I liked you referenced. When you
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  Speaker 6: referenced interdependence, it reminded me of Stephen Covey in the
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  Speaker 6: Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Dependence is a place
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  Speaker 6: you grow out of the the the path that that
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  Speaker 6: Covey gave was from dependence to independence to interdependence, and
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  Speaker 6: interdependence was the goal that you wanted to reach to
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  Speaker 6: become most effective. But you know, when I was first
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  Speaker 6: thinking about this one, it made me think of the
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  Speaker 6: old saying to be indispensable, not irreplaceable. And if people
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  Speaker 6: are dependent on you, you're now becoming irreplaceable, which means
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  Speaker 6: you're going to be stuck again. And uh and so
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  Speaker 6: this is one that that yes, having people be dependent
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  Speaker 6: on you is a form of power and uh and
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  Speaker 6: you can you can hold onto that power and uh
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  Speaker 6: and really control a lot of things and and and
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  Speaker 6: get yourself to a really great position. But only in
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  Speaker 6: that position you now can't leave because you've got all
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  Speaker 6: these people dependent on you to do that one thing.
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  Speaker 6: And uh so, uh so forget about vacations and retirement
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  Speaker 6: and promotions and you know, if you're if you're not
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  Speaker 6: careful with this, yeah, uh yeah, you don't wanna you
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  Speaker 6: don't want to get stuck.
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  Speaker 3: And so wait a minute, who's actually for this number eleven?
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  Speaker 5: Who's for it?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah? I haven't heard anybody for it yet.
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  Speaker 5: Well, there's there's ways, there's ways that you on all
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  Speaker 5: of these laws. There's there's different ways of looking at
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  Speaker 5: at this.
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  Speaker 6: I mean, if you want to, like, if you.
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  Speaker 5: Really learn to keep people dependent on you. Now, if
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  Speaker 5: you think about this for just a minute, it could
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  Speaker 5: be very positive, meaning that if I want to if
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  Speaker 5: I want to just go through my day eight to
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  Speaker 5: five and go unnoticed, then I'm not going to get
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  Speaker 5: a raise, or even a better position or all of
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  Speaker 5: those things. Now, if I now and make myself available
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  Speaker 5: to the manager, the vice president or whoever else and
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  Speaker 5: make them dependent on me on a day to day basis,
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  Speaker 5: that improves my value to them, and it will also
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  Speaker 5: improve my chance to actually move up in the corporation.
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  Speaker 5: I mean, that's one way you can look at this.
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  Speaker 5: You can look at it from a positive way. And
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  Speaker 5: that's why all of these laws, and David mentioned right
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  Speaker 5: at the beginning, is there's one way or another way.
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  Speaker 5: There's just ways of looking at these laws.
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  Speaker 3: In theory, I think that you could probably say that
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  Speaker 3: about most things, but he uses some very absolute language here.
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  Speaker 3: And to learn to keep people dependent on you, because
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  Speaker 3: that's going to provide more security and freedom, because the
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  Speaker 3: more they need you, the more you can do that.
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  Speaker 3: Who would want to be in that position where you
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  Speaker 3: were dependent on someone else? Which of us would want
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  Speaker 3: to be on the other end, that's what the law
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  Speaker 3: of love is, right, that we're going to do two others.
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  Speaker 3: We're going to active, intentionally treat people the way we
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  Speaker 3: want to be treated. I don't think anybody wants to
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  Speaker 3: be in a position where you need someone in your
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  Speaker 3: dependent on them, Whereas Bill was saying, to be indispensable,
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  Speaker 3: that you're bringing great value, that we don't necessarily need you,
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  Speaker 3: but we definitely want you. Definitely see it's better to
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  Speaker 3: have you here than to not have you here versus
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  Speaker 3: we're sunk without you.
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  Speaker 2: Yep. Yeah, I think all of the laws.
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  Speaker 3: To me have a very undertone of manipulation for the
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  Speaker 3: purposes of self interest, to the point of even if
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  Speaker 3: you need to be deceptive to do that. Those things
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  Speaker 3: violate authenticity, they violate integrity.
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  Speaker 1: I think it's good that I'm not disagreeing with holistically
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  Speaker 1: with that MO. I think, like I said, you know,
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  Speaker 1: I think, if you're coming, I look at elements of
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: this and I think, yes, I would agree with you
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  Speaker 1: and Robert Green, and at least I haven't read the
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  Speaker 1: whole book, so I can't say every little one, but
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  Speaker 1: there's an element of how this law has been used
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  Speaker 1: or for power to be self serving, like you said,
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  Speaker 1: so you need to be aware if somebody is doing that.
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  Speaker 1: And again how the power is being wielded on you
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  Speaker 1: If you're not aware of this, under or naive, it's
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  Speaker 1: important you understand. Okay, this is how this person's acting
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  Speaker 1: or behaving. Can can we? And I guess this is
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  Speaker 1: my my my bin of trying to help people see
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  Speaker 1: the error of their ways or how they could do
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  Speaker 1: this better or more like move like I said, from
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  Speaker 1: from that place to more of an interdependence place. You know, Uh,
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  Speaker 1: they might be coming from this place of ah, they
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: might not. I don't even understand or be aware of
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  Speaker 1: it to a certain degree. So helping them understand, hey,
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  Speaker 1: look here's how you're showing up. How can we do
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  Speaker 1: this in a more healthy way? And it's interesting too
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: because you guys both Mo and and I think Bill
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  Speaker 1: too to a certain degree. You guys mentioned the reversal
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  Speaker 1: side of this too, So it's the other side is
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  Speaker 1: it's like, as you make people dependent upon you, on
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: the flip side is now you're dependent upon them to
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  Speaker 1: a certain degree as well.
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  Speaker 2: So I like that the book does.
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  Speaker 1: At least addresses that there's this there's this dynamic here,
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  Speaker 1: and at least his premise is that in the.
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  Speaker 2: Beginning of the book. And you can correct me if
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  Speaker 2: I'm wrong on.
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  Speaker 1: This, uh, Curtis or Mo, but he's kind of his
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  Speaker 1: premises the kind of power is amoral. It's not good
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  Speaker 1: or bad. It's just it is kind of like emotions,
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  Speaker 1: and so it's how you're wielding that. That's the premise
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  Speaker 1: that he has, at least in the book. Now, some
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: people may say power is good or bad. That's that's
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: another judgment, you know.
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  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean these these laws are you know,
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  Speaker 4: we're talking about power. We're we're not talking about necessarily love,
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  Speaker 4: kindness and all all those things.
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  Speaker 5: We're talking about this idea of how power can be
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  Speaker 5: overused and actually to the point where you can cripple
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  Speaker 5: a corporation or you know, a society or fulfill the blank.
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  Speaker 5: Let's any last thoughts on levels.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it probably good to twelve just so
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: we can get through some of these, because I think
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: there'll be some other spectives.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, I'll tell you number twelve. The twelve interesting it
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  Speaker 5: says you selective honesty. Well, you're gonna probably like that
• 17:23
  Speaker 5: and generosity to disarm your victim.
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  Speaker 2: Your victim.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 5: Now, now think about strong words. Yeah that right there.
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  Speaker 4: Is like whoa wait admitt now example, it says, use
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  Speaker 4: honesty and generosity to disarm and distract others from your schemes.
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  Speaker 4: Now you think about that. See, that's the whole point
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  Speaker 4: of this book, in my opinion, is that you you
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: read that and you see, Wow, first of all, I'm
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: select I'm being selective as far as being honest. But
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  Speaker 4: there's there's a hidden motive behind what you're trying to do.
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  Speaker 4: And that's the whole purpose of this book in my opinion,
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  Speaker 4: is that you're looking at the different ways be a
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  Speaker 4: skeptic and as you're listening to people in power, are
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  Speaker 4: they really being honest or what is it that they're
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  Speaker 4: really after? Anyway, let's jump to you Bill. What do
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  Speaker 4: you think about that number twelve?
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  Speaker 6: Well, yeah, selective honesty. We've had something similar where I
• 18:31
  Speaker 6: remember talking about forthrightness as opposed to straight honesty. Is
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  Speaker 6: what's meant here? You know, And and it's true, not
• 18:41
  Speaker 6: everybody needs to know every bit of every bit of
• 18:44
  Speaker 6: truth that you have to tell them. You know, there's
• 18:48
  Speaker 6: a certain degree of which that it allows that being
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  Speaker 6: forthright with people about your issues, let's say, your shortcomings,
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  Speaker 6: your downfalls, your problems, if you will, can create a
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  Speaker 6: connection with with one of your people either above or
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  Speaker 6: below you. But again that's being selective about what you know,
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  Speaker 6: what it matters. It goes back remind I'm reminded of
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  Speaker 6: the law. Uh let's see where to go. You always
• 19:26
  Speaker 6: sit in law number four, always say less than necessary.
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  Speaker 6: You know, it's the same. It's it's got the same
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  Speaker 6: kind of kind of a thing in there that you
• 19:38
  Speaker 6: know you don't want to You don't want to give
• 19:41
  Speaker 6: too much because some people, Uh oh sure take off now,
• 19:52
  Speaker 6: Oh no, see later, Doxy.
• 19:57
  Speaker 5: Just so, I'm gonna sneak out of here, So go
• 19:59
  Speaker 5: ahead and continu you gave for me. I appreciate it.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: Sure, all right, Doxy's got to run. But that's all
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 20:07
  Speaker 5: Thank you.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, we understood that might happen. They'll go ahead, but.
• 20:14
  Speaker 6: Anyway, Yeah, it it goes hand in hand with with
• 20:17
  Speaker 6: law number four saying less than necessary. You don't want
• 20:21
  Speaker 6: to be too much of an open book with people
• 20:24
  Speaker 6: because there will be people who will use that against you,
• 20:28
  Speaker 6: you know, because there are other people playing this power game,
• 20:32
  Speaker 6: and there are other people that it might overwhelm to
• 20:35
  Speaker 6: know all the things that are going on and so so. Yeah,
• 20:40
  Speaker 6: So I think selective honesty, forthrightness, if you will, can
• 20:45
  Speaker 6: be uh can be pretty pretty important to follow, even
• 20:47
  Speaker 6: if you're not trying to gain power over someone.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm, Well it says here in the first chapter,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: it says Chapter twelve says judgment arsons you're an honest
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: move will cover over dozens of dishonest ones. Open hearted
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: gestures of honesty and generosity bring down the guard of
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: suspicious people once you, once your selective honestly opens a
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: hole in their armor, you can just even manipulate them
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: at will. The time they gift a trojan horse will
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: serve the same purpose. So it's an interesting thing again,
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: mode to your place of like, what is your motive here?
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: And I think, you know, I think this ambition to
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: you know, get something and pull something over on somebody
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: is obviously not a good way of I don't believe
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: a good way of living. But this is something we
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: have to be aware of, I think as a power
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: that could be used against us if we're.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: Not you know, being wise.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: And you know and unfortunately, I feel like certain people
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: are more susceptible. I mean, how many times do we
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: hear this, like, I mean, this is the one I
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: think of, just off the top of my head of
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: all these like cybersecurity scams, like older people like from India, Oh,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: let me gi, you've got a virus on your computer
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: and let me help you. You know, you've got something
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: going on, and they tell you all these things and
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: literally it's like a trojan horse the way that they're
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: trying to get in there and like, oh, I'll help
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: you with this or do all these things. And they're
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: saying all these things and opening them up, and unfortunately
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: there's great damage there. And you know, I think this
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: is an unhealthy way to get what you seemingly think
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: you need. So Mom, and I just want to I'm
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: sure you you just chomped on the bit, but You've
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: got lots of ideas on this one. So I'd love
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts.
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: I mean, he I think that he's very clear, and
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: I think that this whole book is number twelve. This
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: whole book is designed to, as he says, manipulate and
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: deceive and to cause people to think, oh, well, you
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: know there could be some good in this. Oh, well,
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: you know that everybody's trying to find a way. They
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: think his honesty about this makes this a legitimate source.
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: It is a criminal's handbook, it is a deceiver's handbook,
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: it's a con man's handbook, and it makes no qualms
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: about that being the case. And it plays on the
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: fears that most people are under the impression that power corrupts,
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: and absolute power corrupts absolutely, and people believe that anybody
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: in power did so through some kind of shady means.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: That the only way to have power is to look
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: out for self and to step on everybody else. That's
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: what people believe. And so then it plays into this, well,
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: you need to be aware of all of the ways.
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: But here's the thing that we know. The things that
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: you focus on you magnify and draw near to yourself.
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: So if you begin to study all of the negative
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: ways a person can lead, guess what's gonna happen in
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: your brain in how you lead and how you treat people.
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: You are feeding this into yourself and it is what
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: you are learning, whether you realize it or not. Right
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: what you the technology programmers term gigo g I g o,
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: garbage in, garbage out? Oh why is it software not
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: working well because the coders did a poor job of
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: their coding. What are we putting into our minds? What
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: are we putting into our souls? What are we putting
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: into our spirits? Guess what? A bank does not teach
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: people how to identify a counterfeit? Did you know that
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: they never teach people how to identify a counterfeit because
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: that's a losing battle. The counterfeiters are spending all every
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: day trying to figure out how to break in and
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: create something that's going to get past and slip past
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: and fool them. You know what they just do? They
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: just teach them. These are the characteristics of an authentic bill.
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: Anything that does not meet that characteristic, it automatically is
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: a faith. So rather than learning all the possible ways,
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: I think I could learn about somebody who's gonna manipulate me?
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: Why not learn how to love people? Why not learn
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: how to lead with love? Why not learn how to
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: be a lover? And anything that is not love is
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: gonna reveal itself. I don't have to know that I'm
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: being manipulated. I don't have to watch out for the
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: person who's deceiving me with some honesty because I can
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: see holistically that it's not congruent. What they're saying is
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: not conngrued. There's a lot of people out today who
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: are quote unquote influencers and gurus and things. They use
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: honesty as a weapon. Oh well, yeah, you know, I
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: had this problem. I was in jail about all these things,
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: and they use that to build rapport. But they're still scheming.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: He literally uses the word scheme, deceive, manipulation. He's telling
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: people what this is for and about. But hey, you know,
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: this guy's best selling author, so this must be good.
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: Let us paint it over and let's let's add an
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: angelic tone of light to this because we want to
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: believe the best in people. What he's saying in number twelve,
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: that's what he's counting on.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: Mm hmmm. Uh one. I mean, I appreciate your perspective
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: on that.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: What would be your thought because one of the things
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: I do appreciate is I look through the book and
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: elements of any ways is I like, you know, what
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: is saying if we if we don't learn history, we're
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: kind of dooming to repeat it. And there's a lot
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: of uh, there's a lot of historical context here of
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: some things that have happened over time.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: And I don't know that's maybe just me because I'm
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: a lover of history.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: I love learning kind of things of the past or
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: what has come and where this has come.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: And in fact, I'll even you know, read the Bible.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: I'm reading the Bible right now, going through like kings
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: and seeing like, oh man, that king, the way he
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: responded to the other kings.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: You know, dang, he.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: Really abused his power there, right, And so I like
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: learning just for me of like kind of in some ways, Okay,
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: that's our human condition.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: And to what your point is saying, mo.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: Is Oh, these are all broken people, but they can
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: They're all from a Christian perspective, as I think, you know,
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: they're all loved by God.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: And how do how do we, like you said, show
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: up for them?
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: And and if people are living in this in this way,
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: you know, I guess you know, just looking at this,
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: it gives me kind of an open and or under uh.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know, say the appreciation, but I think it
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: just gives me and understanding like Okay, this is why
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: they're doing this, is like Okay, they're trying to get
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: this okay, but there's a better way. But sometimes just
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: I know, for me, it's just a way of like
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: understanding people. I'm just curious. I'm just how people work,
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: you know. That's why we've worked well in paranality. I
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: love figuring how right and how people work.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: This would be a great guide with power Noality for
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: people operating in super villain mode, using their gifts for
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: selfish means, manipulating other people to see by any means necessary,
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: I'm going to get you before you get me. That's
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: a super villain. I don't think you would be able
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: to find many religious texts that these forty eight laws
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: would line up with how they say for people to live.
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: I don't. I don't think it would work in many religions,
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: not just Christianity. But I don't think many would say
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: that these are good things. Selective honesty is a great
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: way to say lying, because you're selecting when to be honest.
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: That's why you know. In Powernality, we tell people authenticity
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: is a key, and we give the formula for authenticity
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: integrity plus transparency. We don't use the word vulnerability. You
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: don't need to be vulnerable you don't need to give everything,
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: but you should be transparent. So, yeah, there's a glass.
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: So when you go to five guys to get a burger,
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: you can see what they're doing. You don't necessarily know
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: the vendor, but you can watch them prepare the food.
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: That's transparency. That's not vulnerability. There's a barrier, there's space,
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: there's distance. You're not throwing things in their food. You're
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: not right. There's a difference between transparency and vulnerability. So
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: you don't have to be selectively honest or selectively generous,
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: especially for the purpose of disarming. Why would you disarm somebody.
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: You disarm somebody so they can be vulnerable, especially when
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: you're gonna call them a victim. This book is just
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: wild to me. Everything about this book is just so
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: wild to me. And it never ceases to amaze me.
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: How many people say, yeah, well that's how it is,
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: and this is what you got to do, and there's good.
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: I'm like, there's nothing good in that book. Do not
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: do any one of those things, now, don't follow a
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: single one of them. Actually, let me ask you forty
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: eight uh love, let me ask you something.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, No, let me ask you this one because I
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: think the next one. I've seen this used particularly in nonprofits.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: Let me let me bring this one up because I
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: think it's a good one. Just the Third Law thirteen
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: says when asking for people for help, appeal to people's
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: self interest, never for mercy, your gratitude. So I hear
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: this oftentimes, particularly I hear in public radio public radio
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: appeals like this is great for you. Please make a donation.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: We'll give you you know, X, Y and Z if
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: you donate. You know, like this is this is what
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: this is. This is really good for you. And so
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: not necessarily mercy, I mean somewhat to I guess say
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: somewhat to appreciation. But I see this sometimes used out
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: there in the world and they're like, you know, appealing
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: to them in that way.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: Uh.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: And maybe I'll just come to you first, Bill, because
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: we come back MO because I'm sure you got ideas here.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: But this is just what I think I've seen where
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: you're reaching out for others and you you throw out like,
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: how is this going to help you, you know, to
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: get support, So Bill, I'll throw it to you first.
• 31:26
  Speaker 6: Just thoughts there, Well, that's that's definitely a way to
• 31:33
  Speaker 6: to go after it is to Uh. I mean in sales,
• 31:36
  Speaker 6: that was always the big thing. There's what it is,
• 31:39
  Speaker 6: what it does, and why I should care, you know.
• 31:44
  Speaker 6: And uh, you know, you don't really get to the
• 31:46
  Speaker 6: sale until you until you convince somebody that it's good
• 31:50
  Speaker 6: for them. You know, the old lady who wants to
• 31:55
  Speaker 6: buy a new car and uh, and telling her that well,
• 32:00
  Speaker 6: heated seats are going to be really good for you
• 32:01
  Speaker 6: because it gets cold in the winter time and in
• 32:03
  Speaker 6: the early morning and you know, make you more comfortable,
• 32:07
  Speaker 6: and later on being thanked because she found out that
• 32:11
  Speaker 6: was absolutely true.
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 32:15
  Speaker 6: So so definitely, uh, definitely it can be important to
• 32:20
  Speaker 6: to explain why why something should matter to a person.
• 32:26
  Speaker 6: It's not really manipulation, but it can definitely give you
• 32:31
  Speaker 6: power over a sale or you know, over over something
• 32:36
  Speaker 6: that has to get done.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: His premise here, he says in the book, it says,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: if you need help or an ally, don't bother the
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: mind of the past assistance or good deeds essentially you've
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: provided or put in the past. He'll he'll ignore you
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: that doesn't matter to them instead and cover something in
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: your request or an alliance with him that will benefit him,
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: or emphasize that out of all like you said, out
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: of all proportion, and then he'll see and respond to that.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: So you know, what's your thoughts on this as far
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: as when you're you're you're looking for an alley your
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: help again, I feel free to.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: Turn it around or whatever. This is his perspective, But.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: You know, I wanted this is like this particular one
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: is helpful for me because I feel, like I said,
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: I'm agreeing with it with it, but I'm also just
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: recognizing is how is this being used or how how
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: or number one, I guess the big thing I would say,
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: moan in your last your last comment is it's a
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: mirror back to me too. Am I using selective honesty?
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: Am I doing this? Because then it's kind of convicted, like,
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: oh man, I'm I'm out of alignment, I'm out of integrity.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: And so I look at this as a as I
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: look at these laws, just like a let's look let's
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: lock the look at the Ten commandments.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: Okay, yep, violated that one, violated that one. I'm out.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: You know, the law is basically showing I can't measure
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: up to the law or I'm in violation of the law,
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: and therefore I need for me as a Christian, a savior,
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: a God that comes and is the bridge there for me.
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: But thoughts Man as a Christian the forty eight Laws
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: of power?
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: Do they look like Jesus?
• 34:16
  Speaker 5: Not at all?
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: No, So if they don't look like Jesus, who they
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: look like.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: Like the world? The people?
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: I think we know Man, I would go farther than that.
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: And and and there's an individual that we would say
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: that this mimics that we throughout history have attributed to
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: him and his manipulations and deceptions.
• 34:43
  Speaker 5: Uh.
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: I think that what makes it manipulation is not the thing.
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: It is the motive. It is the intent behind it.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: It is not it is not bad for you to
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: walk down the street and see a little kid and say, hey,
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: little kid, here's some candy. That's that's not manipulation. But
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: if you put on the side of a van free
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: candy and part out in front of the school, I mean,
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: that's manipulation. It's it's not the thing that makes it manipulation,
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: it's the it's the heart behind it. And so this
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: is to manipulate someone to help you. Uh. You know,
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: we talk about scripture a lot on here. Scripture specifically
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: says that when you give, you should not give out
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: a compulsion or manipulation, because God loves a cheerful giver.
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: You want somebody to give to you because you had
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: to manipulate them, he says, never their mercy or gratitude.
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: Why would you if you need help? Why would you
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: not appeal to someone's mercy? Why would you not appeal
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: to their gratitude if it can only work in their
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: self interest? And most people operate in a selfish state
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: of being right, But when you need help, you are
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: in need of help. You're not need in need of reciprocation.
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: That's the difference between a business and a charity. It's
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: a transaction versus a love expression. If your tire is
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: flat and your cell phone is dead and you don't
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: have a spare tire, somebody drives by and you're like, hey,
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: you mind if I use your phone real quick, and
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: the like yeah, twenty bucks. I mean, you know, and
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: you know it's funny. This is in the chat now
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: because I was literally just about to talk about how
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: the value of this would be in the right way
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: of doing this, where zig Ziggler says you can have
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: everything in life that you want if you'll just help enough,
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: other people get what they want. But that is not
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: to say that the only reason you're giving is because
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: you want them to give you something back, or the
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: only reason they're helping you is because you gave them something.
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: There is something the law of reciprocation, and what he's
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: saying is, don't rely on the law's reciprocation. Don't rely
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: on the fact that if you do something for somebody,
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: they're automatically going to be inclined to want to do
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: something for you. That you have to appeal to their
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: selfish motive. See a person who is self centered believes
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: everyone else is self centered. He says, don't ask for
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: mercy or gratitude. That doesn't work. You got to you
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: gotta manipulate them, and you just got to be transactional.
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: How would this work in a marriage? How how would
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: this work in a business partnership? So in order to
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: get help, you've got to give them something they want.
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: See when you when you really apply these and kind
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: text to real life situations, that's when it shows the
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: manipulation and the deception, and the fact is I would
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: never want to be on the other side of this.
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: Would you want your spouse to utilize this law.
• 38:17
  Speaker 6: Probably not.
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this is why I'm opposed to the concept where
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: there's always some good in it or there's another way
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: to look. No, there isn't. It's evil. All of this
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: is evil. Period. There's not a single one of these
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: laws has a good motive behind it, not a single one.
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: It's a little that's about being somebody you don't really
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: want to be, and you never want to be on
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: the other.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: Side of this one of the things. And I appreciate that.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: I appreciate this. I think we're just yeah, we're we're
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: gonna we're just gonna keep chipping away a little bit here.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: One of the ones that was coming up in law
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: Law fourteen was and I think this is an interesting
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: one because I want to I want to get to
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: this one because there's an example in here I want
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: to ask you about and you to bell because in
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: law fourteen it talks about poses a friend and work
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: a spy. And in one of the examples, in an
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: example they talk about this was in World War two,
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: how the reversal of the law was actually this is
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: the reversal, so it's it's actually uh reversal as instead
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: of you know, uh, poses a spy work or I
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: guess poses a spy works as a friend. But one
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: of the things which was interesting here was that I
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: thought this was interesting. So they're talking about World War
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: two here and the Nazis had these spies and you know,
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: they basically we're bombing London and what was happening was
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: they were posing as they was, you know, switching out.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: So they basically were giving misinformation because hey, you know
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: there's agents in England and they were supposed to communicate
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: information back to Germany about bombing, and so they would
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: get misinformation basically lying. They're manipulating these people into giving
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: false information to prevent the destruction of London and Piccadilly
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: and the Tower Bridge. That bombing kept beating further for
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: the way because of the misinformation. Because the way this
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: power is being used now, I guess the question would
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: be is if they didn't observe that law, possibly they
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: could have been giving key critical information that would have
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: contributed the decimation of London. And so just thinking about
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: this particular law in the way that this reversal pops up,
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: what's what would be your thoughts there.
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: That I what are my thoughts on somebody pretending to
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: be a friend but really looking to harm you.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: They're using that they were they were pretending to be
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: the friend to the German that were laying information, and
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: then they were giving the misinformation, so they were manipulated.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: They could have they could have said, they could have
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: actually been told them that the direct information, but they
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: were they're opposing as a friend, and they were actually
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: being a spy for London to protect the people, So
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: they were giving misinformation to the Germans that we're going
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: to be bombing London.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: Remember, in the beginning, I said this is good for politicians, right,
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: but what of any person who reads this book, What
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: of anyone who listens to this podcast, Which of us
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: are in a situation where it's the stakes of national
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: security and we're talking about planes bombing our city. What
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: are these stakes where we have to where we have
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: to become inauthentic, we have to pretend to be something
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: we're not, that we would fake friendship, that we would
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: be inauthentic, that we would be manipulative, that we would
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: be deceptive, that we would be untrustworthy, and we're really
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: seeing them as an opponent, and we're lying and we're
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: cheating and we're stealing. What is the situation? That's why
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: I like I always bring these back to would you
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: want your company culture, would you want your employee? Would
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: you want to be on the other side, would you
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: want your spouse, would you want your child? So what
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: is the application of this in a real life scenario
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: where this is going to work for the typical person
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: where they should pretend to be a friend but actually
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: be a spy so you can control them. Mm hm,
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: what's that situation?
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: Well, I was just again I get what you're getting
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: at MOB. I was just I was, you know, again
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: speaking to the what they're talking about of the book.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: And then you know, and you're right in a political side,
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: because this is something Winston Churchill says, you know, it
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: says truth is so precious that she should always be
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: attended by a bodyguard of lies. In the political sense,
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: what you're saying in war, that's where were saying you
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: need to be careful about what's being penetrated. I mean
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: the Germans that there's like the enigma box, right, the
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: enigma that they had to decode as far as protecting people.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: So I don't know that we're going to get to
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: that place again exactly.
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: I hope we probably won't, but I can tell you
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: that the average person doesn't in their career and their
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: business and their whatever. I've had many businesses where I've
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: had competitors send people to come and work for me,
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: and I call them out because my cultures always suss
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: them out. When you have a culture of honesty and integrity,
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: it's hard to be a liar in that situation. What
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: we're putting out, what we're creating, makes it very, very difficult.
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: I've always had them identify themselves, well, you know, actually
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: to tell you the truth, we're here because they're so
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: impressed by our authenticity. They're so impressed by the truthfulness
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: of what we are and what we do, and that
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: we're the real deal, that we're not just talking about it,
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: but we live it. And so what happens is they're like, well,
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: you know, to tell you the truth, I'm here because
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: no problem, you can still stay here. I want you
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: to go back and report that what is going on
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: in our life that we need to one be afraid
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: of a spy and what is going on in our
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: life where we would ever need to lie about pretending
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: to be a friend when we're not. Again, if you're
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: talking about living a Christian life, I mean, so you're
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: saying be judas.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: You bring up a good point though in the legality,
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm in the world of contracts and things
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: like that, no where I've had to design non disclosure
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: agreements and things like that to not disclose any key
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: critical information. So I'm withholding key information that could be
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: shared if and ethically with others, you know. So I
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: think being cognizant of the information that is a form
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: of power. How you're wielding that power and managing it right,
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: And somebody is entrusting you with key information, and but
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: they're requiring that you adbide by and this is not
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: They're not. This is not nothing faith based. This is
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: the world the business that we talk about a lot
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: here because you know this is the Business round Table podcast.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: We do share our personal faith in our background there.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: But this is this is not people that necessarily ascribe
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: to that, right.
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I absolutely want to address that, but I
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: want I do want to give Bill an opportunity to
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: say something I don't want to not time.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: Go ahead, Bill, Well.
• 45:46
  Speaker 6: You know, the non disclosure agreement in many ways is
• 45:50
  Speaker 6: probably just about the only time that we're really going
• 45:54
  Speaker 6: to be in a position of having to withhold the
• 45:57
  Speaker 6: truth of something, you know, when we go to work
• 46:00
  Speaker 6: for somebody or or we're going to consult for a
• 46:04
  Speaker 6: company or something like that. And I I heard I
• 46:08
  Speaker 6: heard that people I had to sign a nd A
• 46:12
  Speaker 6: to uh get into uh Paisley Park when Prince was alive,
• 46:17
  Speaker 6: so that you're not supposed to tell about what happened,
• 46:20
  Speaker 6: you know what, no recordings, no recording no uh yeah,
• 46:25
  Speaker 6: uh but uh but yeah, that's that's really I mean.
• 46:30
  Speaker 6: World War two is a great source for for great
• 46:34
  Speaker 6: examples of of when this would of when withholding information
• 46:38
  Speaker 6: would apply when acting as a friend, like like the
• 46:42
  Speaker 6: people who would give out uh uh who was the
• 46:47
  Speaker 6: guy he was giving he was basically giving out Japanese
• 46:51
  Speaker 6: passports too to Jews in uh in occupied Europe and
• 46:57
  Speaker 6: so they could get out. And yeah, we have like
• 47:01
  Speaker 6: Shindler's List and and uh and a few other people
• 47:05
  Speaker 6: that that don't get mentioned often enough for the for
• 47:08
  Speaker 6: the good work they did of getting getting people out
• 47:11
  Speaker 6: of u of occupied Europe during during the war. But uh,
• 47:16
  Speaker 6: you know, these were definitely times when you had to
• 47:18
  Speaker 6: act like a friend, you know, and uh, you know,
• 47:22
  Speaker 6: and and do other things behind the you know, behind
• 47:26
  Speaker 6: your friends, your friends back.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think World War two is
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: a good one.
• 47:32
  Speaker 6: We're doing the wrong thing, yeah.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, like I saw the hiding place earlier
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: this year Connie ten Boom where they saying thank you,
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: where they had hit people, so they were hiding and
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: the Germans would come a knock and do you have
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: these people?
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: No, we don't have we don't have these people, right, no, yep.
• 47:51
  Speaker 6: And so there are there will be times in this
• 47:54
  Speaker 6: life when when we'll have to not reveal something, not
• 47:58
  Speaker 6: reveal some truth. But but yeah, it's not u It's
• 48:03
  Speaker 6: not like it's an everyday thing. I mean, I I
• 48:06
  Speaker 6: know stuff that nobody's ever gonna ask me if I know,
• 48:10
  Speaker 6: because it would just be too incredible that I know it,
• 48:14
  Speaker 6: you know. So it's not like I'm lying to anybody.
• 48:16
  Speaker 6: But if somebody did happen to ask me about this thing,
• 48:19
  Speaker 6: I couldn't tell them, you know, so you know, but
• 48:22
  Speaker 6: they wouldn't know to ask me in the first place,
• 48:25
  Speaker 6: because it's you know, it's just so far out there
• 48:28
  Speaker 6: that that I should know. But i've I've had to
• 48:30
  Speaker 6: sign NDA's before and and otherwise agree not to I have.
• 48:37
  Speaker 6: I can tell you about one of these things. I
• 48:39
  Speaker 6: have some great footage that I took of the inner
• 48:42
  Speaker 6: workings of the original Tesla, the engine or the motor
• 48:47
  Speaker 6: and and other components. I took a video because I
• 48:51
  Speaker 6: had the opportunity to. And the guy who was showing
• 48:54
  Speaker 6: the car worked for work for Tesla. And after he
• 48:59
  Speaker 6: and he's getting all excited because I I understood the
• 49:02
  Speaker 6: mechanics of it, of the car and and stuff, and
• 49:05
  Speaker 6: and he didn't think about it until afterwards that I
• 49:09
  Speaker 6: shouldn't have videotaped any of it because it was still
• 49:13
  Speaker 6: it was still top secret kind of stuff. And so
• 49:16
  Speaker 6: I had to agree not to ever show the videos
• 49:19
  Speaker 6: to anybody. And I don't even know if I still
• 49:23
  Speaker 6: have it it somewhere anywhere, because it's I lost so
• 49:27
  Speaker 6: much stuff in the move that. But but yeah, somewhere
• 49:30
  Speaker 6: there's a there's a video of of the inner workings
• 49:33
  Speaker 6: of the original Tesla.
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: So but holding I don't see that as that sounds or.
• 49:47
  Speaker 6: Definitely it's definitely a better way to to say.
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: That's not what he's saying in any of these, Yeah,
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: but I don't sign nds okay.
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: Uh.
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: I deal a lot with startups as a business consultant,
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: have for thirty years a lot in the M and
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: a's when somebody's selling a business. I don't sign NDA's,
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: mostly because nine out of ten times I have already
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: somehow been involved with or seen something similar to what
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: they're doing. Is not so unique that no one's ever
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: seen it before, or that I won't encounter in the future.
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: You want me to sign an NDA before I know
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: what it is. No, I'm not gonna hamstring myself because
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: you think you created something. You just live in a
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: bubble and you just don't realize that there's thirty other
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: people working on this exact same thing right now. I'm
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: not gonna limit myself that way. There's nothing new under
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: the sun the absolutely not, absolutely not, And if you
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: look at it, there has not been in the last
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: one hundred years many new things created. There's just been
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: things that have uh in something that's already been created.
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: So there's never been the concept of like a wheel reinvented.
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: We got rims, we got tires, and we you know,
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: make those different, but there's no new wheels. So don't
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: tell me to sign an NBA and you're like, yeah,
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: I invented this thing called the new wheel, Like, no,
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: stop it right. At the same time, there are trade secrets,
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: which means you just don't tell everybody everything in your organization.
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: You compartmentalize. There's all kinds of ways to protect your IP,
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: whether through copyright, through trademark, through patent, depending on what
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: it is, and those things really don't protect it. What
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: they do is they give you legal precedent to protect
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: and pursue those who infringe your intellectual property to think
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: that you have something that I just generally don't. When
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: people ask me this sign of NDA, I'm like, no, no,
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: thank y'all just miss out on whatever your slice bread is,
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: because what are the odds. As much as I've been
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: involved with, I promise you I've seen it before, and
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: if I haven't, I'm about to see it through another
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: one of my network affiliations. So no, thank you.
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: I think it would be good mo as we're getting
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: close to the end of the episode here, I think
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: it would be good to talk a little bit more
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: about that, maybe in a future episode. Just some of
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: the things you just enumerated, I would throw in there
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: teaming agreements. That's something I've seen a lot in the
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: environmental consulting world where their teaming agreements as to how
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: we're going to go about if we win this work,
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: how it's going to be divided up, and things like that,
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: because I've seen where people have used qualifications in good
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: faith to win work and then they don't give any
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: work to the team that they use the qualifications to
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: win the work unfortunately. So teaming agreements contracts are there
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: to help make sure that we all are clear that
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: we're abiding by the same set of rules and had
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: the same understanding or even definitions, right, you know.
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: And then you know, when you're talking about people working together,
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: sometimes there's a non circumvention, right, non compete yep.
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: There's all kinds of things that can be done. But
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: I don't think any of them require you to be
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: an enemy, but pretend to be a friend.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: Right right.
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: I think this is probably a good pausing point. You know,
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: we missed Curtis to get more of his inputs on,
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: but I think.
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: I appreciate both you giving some good, good information thoughts
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: to think about.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: Uh, And you know, I think that the whole point
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: of the podcast is that we're learning from each other,
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: we're sharing giving insights, and so you know, hopefully as
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: you're walking away from this, you've got some some you've
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: been empowered, you've got some knowledge here, and you can
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: apply that to your life in a positive way. You know,
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: we're all about leaving you in a better place. And
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: I appreciate Bill and Moe coming on tonight and sharing
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: thoughts just any thing. Final as we kind of wrap up,
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: I'll come to your Bill, I'm back to you Mo
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: as we wrap up for the for tonight.
• 54:05
  Speaker 6: Well, I think really, uh, what we have to watch
• 54:08
  Speaker 6: out for is, uh is what most said earlier, the
• 54:11
  Speaker 6: the old action power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely,
• 54:17
  Speaker 6: so uh, you know, you need to be careful when
• 54:19
  Speaker 6: using things like like the forty eight laws power, especially
• 54:23
  Speaker 6: that dependency one, that one, that one, just that one
• 54:27
  Speaker 6: just stinks.
• 54:30
  Speaker 4: You.
• 54:30
  Speaker 6: But yeah, that's that's what I'd have to to say
• 54:35
  Speaker 6: about it.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: Is you know, if you do.
• 54:37
  Speaker 6: Decide to use these, uh, these tools, then be careful
• 54:44
  Speaker 6: because it's it's playing with fire.
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think look, you know, yes, be wise and
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: and how you're anything of the world anything out there,
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: you know, look, test it, make sure that it's right
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: impure Like you said, Mo, that you know, is it
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: getting us that?
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: Is it getting us in that place or not? And
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: so final thoughts here.
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you don't. You don't have to be be Hamlet.
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be at two brute.
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: It doesn't.
• 55:17
  Speaker 6: You know, you don't have.
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: To poison people and stab them in the back to
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: get power. Focus on gaining influence through love. That's I
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: would just say, you know, I don't I don't see
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: any good in the book. As much as people love
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: the book, I don't think every book has value, and
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: I think the value of this book is pretty scary.
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: I think it just tells, you know, if you want
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: to be a good gang member, if you want to
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: be a good mafioso, if you want to be a
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: manipulative type of politician, then this is a perfect guidebook.
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: But I encourage people to look at ways to lead
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: with love, and these things then become irrelevant. You don't
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: even have to know them, because your love is going
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: to build the wall that's going to protect you from
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: these kinds of things of someone who's attempting to manipulate.
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: I appreciate you having me and next time you want
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: a contrarian on Uh, it's.
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: Boring if everybody says the same thing.
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: You know, we want to have, we want to have
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: you know, we want we want to have that.
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: And everybody can take the innovator intensity though so you know,
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: I know you got to do it in spurts. Maybe
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: next month you'll let me back through something now.
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, the point of having a round table is
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: we don't want everybody to say necessary yes, we want
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: challenge ideas to be challenged thoughts. Uh, there's that's all
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: helps us grow, become better. And you know that's why
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: we have a round table here. And that's why if
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: you're don't, if you're with the listener hearing that, and
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: you don't have a community and a connection, you know,
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: reach out to any one of us.
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: We would love to help you.
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: In in in the capacity from leadership like you know
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: Mo and myself and Parerality Bill and you know we're
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: here as a resource. So we appreciate you guys. Subscribe
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: being leaving your comments, leaving your reviews. Uh, we will
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: respond to them, each and every one of them. As
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: you leave a comment, a message will follow up with you. Uh,
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: it's really really valuable. We've got a number of guests
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: that have been knocking on my door to get on
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: the podcast. We're kind of doing some in one on
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: one pod. I'm doing some one on ones in group one,
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: so follow along. You'll see our upcoming episodes on YouTube.
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: This will be also rebroadcast and on LinkedIn. We do
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: events and so if you want to get on the podcast,
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: we'd love to hear from you too. We've got some
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: new voices coming on bill Mo. Thank you both for
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: just coming on spending some time here on the Business
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: round Table podcast and sharing your thoughts and ideas and
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: encouraging business owners and leaders.
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: Thank you, David, Thank you Billy.
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: Wherever he is, it's wherever he may be, all right,
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: Thanks guys, have a great night.