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UnchainedTV: New Bestseller Reveals Secret to Saving Animals · UNCHAINEDTV'S Truth Files with Jane Velez-Mitchell

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Jump to the next phase of human evolution?
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All it takes is one simple choice.
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Now here's your host, Jane Velez Mitchell.
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We've got an exciting show for you because
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we're talking to Judy Mancuso, and she has
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an instant bestseller.
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It's called Because They Need Us, and she
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reveals the secrets of how she's been the
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driving force behind almost 30 laws that protect
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animals.
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Her book, I couldn't put it down, it
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reads like a thriller.
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She goes up against these very powerful interests
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that exploit animals, and now she is here
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to tell us exactly how she did it,
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along with the right-hand man, Nick Sackett.
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Together, they run Social Compassion in Legislation, and
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she has passed almost 30 bills to save
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animals.
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Do you know how hard that is?
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30 bills.
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I am very excited to introduce the one
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and only Judy Mancuso.
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Hopefully, you'll get her book because I literally
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could not put it down.
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I was reading it until midnight last night.
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Judy, you start out with this incredible story
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of how you went up against a very
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powerful man representing a very powerful industry, and
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you spoke truth to power.
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Tell us about that.
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Sometimes, we find ourselves fighting bills.
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The goal of my group was to bring
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legislation forward that saves and protects animals, but
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at the same time, there's other folks doing
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legislation that would harm animals.
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That is what we were faced with.
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California had banned the sale of crocodile and
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alligator skins in the 70s.
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Now, all of a sudden, there was a
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sunset, meaning that the law could go away,
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whether it would get reinstated or not.
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There was a move to do away with
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this law from the alligator breeders in Louisiana,
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and so we had to pivot to fight
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that bill because we didn't want the cruelty
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and that market to start back up.
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A guy walks in to a meeting room.
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What happened?
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Well, he proceeded to tell me that we
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had common ground, which we did not.
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Then, he actually segued into offering us money
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to go away and stop fighting the bill
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because we had killed a couple versions of
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it, and they were trying to get another
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one going.
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He offered us money.
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How much money?
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Well, at first, it was $500,000.
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Wow.
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You said?
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No.
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Why would I take money from an industry
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that I am 100% against and trying
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to prevent from proliferating in our state?
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It would be opposite to our values.
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He was trying to- Then, what did
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he do?
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Well, he was trying to tell me, but
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I could use it to further our work.
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Then, the number went up to, what about
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$1 million?
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You could spread it around to some of
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your friends, too.
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I wasn't having any of it.
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It just wasn't going to happen, so we
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ended the conversation, and he left in a
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huff.
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You have worked with so many celebrities.
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There's Pierce Brosnan, and there you are with
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the governors of the state of California, Bob
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Barker, so many.
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There you are with Hillary Clinton.
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They're in a group that's Jean-Paul D
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'Aujourd and, of course, Joaquin Phoenix.
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You have mobilised celebrities, and this is your
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battle to pass the Cruelty-Free Cosmetics Act.
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Tell us about that because that may very
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well be your most famous piece of legislation.
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How did you get the Cruelty-Free Cosmetics
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Act passed?
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I always wanted to do something.
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I dreamed about stopping animal testing because it
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is the cruellest of cruel and how many
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animals die, but I just couldn't imagine how
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to make a dent in it, and it's
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such an enormous industry.
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I met Dr. Neil Bernard with Physicians Committee
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for Responsible Medicine, and he congratulated me on
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the work that I was doing.
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Of course, I admire his work so much.
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He said, maybe we could join forces in
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the future.
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We had a brainstorming session with him and
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his staff, and we came up with what
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if we could pass a law in the
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state of California, which is the fifth largest
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economy in the world, and that would stop
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selling cosmetics and personal hygiene products that have
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been tested on animals.
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It seemed like an enormous, tall order, but
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if we could move the market, then this
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would further the market of cruelty-free, which
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is what people want anyway, a lot of
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people want, and do away with these cruel
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personal hygiene products and cosmetics.
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We got an author, which was Senator Kathleen
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Galgiani, and off we went.
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That's a photo you're showing of one of
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our big press conferences, and we got it
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done.
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It's the law in California and has been
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copied in, I don't know, maybe 11 states.
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It changes every year, so I don't know
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what the current number is.
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This is a way to affect change in
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our state with 40 million people, fifth largest
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economy, but then have a ripple effect across
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the world, across other states.
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You're saving animals exponentially.
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Nick Sackett, I want to bring you in
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because you have worked so closely with Judy
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Mancuso.
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There's so much legislation here that you guys
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have passed, almost 30 bills that have been
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copied.
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Many of them have been copied.
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They get passed here in California, which, as
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Judy mentioned, is the fifth largest economy in
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the world.
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They get copied in other places like New
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York, for example, which is another very important
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state.
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How do you do it?
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What do you think the secret sauce is
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that makes social compassion and legislation so effective?
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Thanks, Jane.
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I have to say it's Judy's and our
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longevity in Sacramento that is tremendously helpful.
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Legislators in Sacramento, they know who we are.
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If they have questions about laws pertaining to
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animals, many times they will reach out to
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us directly rather than us going to them.
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Judy has been working on these issues in
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California for decades now.
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She has a long history up and down
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the state.
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I think that's number one.
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Number two is we're always looking to collaborate
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with other groups, PETA, Physicians Committee for Responsible
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Medicine, Centre for Biological Diversity.
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Anyone who wants to work in a coalition
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to get things done, we're willing to do
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that.
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I think that's number two.
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Number three is just our commitment to the
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cause.
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Like Judy said, we turned down a million
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dollars just to not oppose a bill.
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People see that.
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They didn't see that until Judy wrote it
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in the book because it was behind closed
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doors, but it's a reflection of our values
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that we don't back down from our values.
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That's how we get things done over the
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years.
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Well, you really have become a force in
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Sacramento.
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Given that California is the fifth largest economy
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in the world, that means you are a
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force across the United States, as well as
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the world, as other states and even other
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nations pick up on some of the things
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you've done.
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Now, one of the biggest and one of
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the earliest things you did was the licence
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plate called the Pet Lover's Licence Plate.
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It's the Spay and Neuter Saves Lives Licence
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Plate.
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I have one.
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Tell us about this and how it raises
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money for spay-neuter and how people can
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still get it to this day.
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I think everybody who is driving a car
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in California should have one of these licence
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plates.
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How do they get it and why is
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it important?
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Well, if they did have it, we could
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solve our pet overpopulation problem because there's over
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30 million registered vehicles in the state of
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California.
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We wouldn't need every one of them to
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solve it, but boy, if we had a
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big share of it, we could.
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You go to dmv.ca.gov and when
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you're registering your vehicle, there's a place where
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you can choose a speciality plate.
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When it brings down the list, you pick
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the Pet Lover's Plate.
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$40 from your registration every year goes into
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a fund.
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Then once a year, that money gets distributed
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to providers of spay and neuter, which can
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be shelters or vet clinics.
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Right now, we're at $2.3 million that
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has been raised through the plate.
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That's an impressive number and it is so
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exciting, but it could be so much more.
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Thank you for bringing that up because I'd
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love to urge everyone in California, please get
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a Pet Lover's Licence Plate.
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We need you.
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Now, California is in the midst of a
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pet overpopulation crisis.
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How do I know?
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Because I have two pets.
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This one, whose name is Wednesday, somebody tried
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to drop her at a shelter and the
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shelter actually said, we have no room.
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Put her back where you found her.
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Luckily, somebody heard this who was a rescuer
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and grabbed her.
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She had no identification, nothing.
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This is a crisis.
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The shelters are overflowing.
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Why is that happening?
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How does the Pet Lover's Licence Plate and
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all of your efforts fit into that, Judy?
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Well, it's overbreeding and oops litters and people
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getting animals from out of state, out of
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country.
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So unaltered animals having many, many litters that
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find their way into the shelters and then
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there's not enough space.
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So the shelters euthanise the animals and that's
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what pet overpopulation is.
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When we are literally killing animals, putting them
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down because we don't have enough space, we
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can't hold them, we can't help them to
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get adopted.
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That is an overpopulation crisis.
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And we've been working on legislation over the
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years to mitigate it, which has been helpful.
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Our microchipping bill, one of the problems when
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animals come into shelters, the reason why we
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can't get them back home is because they
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lack identification.
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So we did a microchip bill that requires
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every dog, cat leaving a shelter to be
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microchipped.
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And that way, if they find their way
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into a shelter, you scan them or maybe
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not even in a shelter.
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A lot of times if they're just out
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in running the streets and animal control or
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Good Samaritan with a reader can scan them,
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find out where they live, contact the owner
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and get them back home.
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And then we did another bill that kicked
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puppy mills out of pet shops so that
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only rescue or shelter animals could be in
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pet shops.
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So, I mean, bottom line is it's overbreeding
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too many animals and not enough homes.
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But it's also a problem with the powers
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that be, not recognising that spay and neuter
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is the answer.
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Obviously you spay one animal and you prevent
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dozens, hundreds, even thousands of animals down the
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road from being born.
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Why is it that more isn't being done?
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We've got this pet lover's licence plate.
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I mean, is all that money being used
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to spay and neuter animals?
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There's something really wrong.
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And it seems that it's so obvious what
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the solution is, spay neuter, and yet animals
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are being put down all across the state
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of California, Judy.
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Well, it is all getting used for the
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spay and neuter.
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There's a little bit that's taken for administration
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fees, meaning overhead.
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The California Department of Food and Ag oversee
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it.
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So there's some money taken out to pay
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their staff for the time to gather the
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grants, distribute the funds, but overall it is
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getting used.
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It's just not enough is the problem.
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There are literally hundreds of thousands of animals
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that are getting put down.
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So we need an enormous amount of money
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to spay and neuter so that we can
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get all the animals spayed and neutered that
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their family can't afford it.
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And then most recently, we have a shortage
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of veterinarians in the state and registered veterinary
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technicians.
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So there's also a professional shortage that we
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are trying to address.
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So, I mean, this is a crisis.
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I think everybody's acknowledging that it's a crisis.
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You're doing incredible work, but you can't do
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it alone.
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Nick, what are your thoughts about what we
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need to do to fix this problem?
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I happen to live in Los Angeles.
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It's a huge problem in Los Angeles, but
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it's apparently up and down the state.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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You know, one of the hardest things to
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do in politics is to get that ounce
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of prevention so that you don't need a
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pound of cure.
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And so that's the problem with getting money
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up front to do more spay and neutering
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so that we don't have this pet overpopulation
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crisis.
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Thankfully, I do think that there is movement
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politically in that legislators and other folks, mayors,
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county supervisors, they are seeing the wall.
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And I feel like we are on the
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precipice of a breakthrough where maybe we can
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get that prevention so that we're not spending
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so much on the cure later.
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Absolutely.
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But let's talk about some brighter subjects when
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it comes to animals, specifically dogs.
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You passed the Dining With Dogs bill, which
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you go into depth here in your book
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because they need us.
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And I'm happy to say I was a
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part of this whole effort.
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And it really has revolutionised our relationship with
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dogs because we can take them places.
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Before you passed the Dining With Dogs bill,
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we couldn't go to outdoor patios, and it
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really penalised and persecuted dog owners.
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So Judy, tell us about the passage of
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the Dining With Dogs Act, which passed here
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in California and then it passed in New
18:00
York too.
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Well, absolutely.
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I mean, at first, when I first got
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my dogs, I thought that it was fine
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to bring your dogs to an outdoor patio
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because I would see them there.
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And I went to a restaurant, they said,
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no, you can't have your dogs here.
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And I said, well, but we just did
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it at another one of your restaurants like
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two weeks ago.
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And they said, no, it's a law.
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And I said, well, that's a law that
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needs to be changed.
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So I went home and dug through the
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code on the California legislation website and found
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that sure enough, dogs were prohibited from being
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in a restaurant, whether it was inside or
18:53
outside, unless they were a service dog.
18:55
So we moved a piece of legislation in
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California that said, if a restaurant had an
19:03
outdoor patio area, and if they elected to
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allow animals, dogs to come, they would need
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to be on leash.
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They need to stay on the ground.
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There was a whole list of things that
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the California Department of Public Health required.
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So we ran the legislation, we had the
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restaurant association with us, and it was a
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no-brainer, and really was, and got to
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the finish line and signed into law.
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So we made it so that now, if
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a restaurant has this opportunity that they have
19:46
the outdoor area, that they allow it.
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And these two have gone to so many
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restaurants, I can't tell you, they are about
19:55
town, but that was a really, really popular
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bill.
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And it was something that everybody could get
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behind.
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And it's too bad that some of the
20:04
more controversial ones aren't quite as popular, but
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you do have bipartisan support for a lot
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of your bills.
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Isn't it true, Nick, that sometimes the only
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thing Republicans and Democrats can agree on is
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that they love their dogs?
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Absolutely.
20:23
We work with Democrats and Republicans all the
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time, particularly on companion animal issues, Republicans will
20:33
line up to support.
20:35
We worked on a bill to get rid
20:38
of dogs that were kept to give their
20:43
blood in cages their entire life.
20:45
We worked with a Republican legislator to end
20:48
that practise or to phase it out in
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California.
20:52
We are working with, last year we worked
20:54
with a Republican legislator to help raise breeder
20:59
standards and get shelter animals online.
21:03
So these kinds of issues, they have to
21:06
be bipartisan.
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In California, Democrats do have a super majority,
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but that does not mean that we disregard
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Republicans.
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We work across the aisle all the time.
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So let me ask you guys, I want
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to get back to the Cruelty-Free Cosmetics
21:24
Act, because to me, you've passed so many
21:27
bills, almost 30, and these are historic, ground
21:32
-changing, groundbreaking bills.
21:35
But in my eyes, the Cruelty-Free Cosmetics
21:38
Act was just a monumental achievement because there
21:42
were so many powerful forces against what you
21:46
were doing.
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So many industries were up against you.
21:51
However, according to this book, you got two
21:55
very successful corporations to get behind you.
21:59
One was John Paul Mitchell, which is the
22:03
beauty products, completely cruelty-free, and the other
22:06
is Lush.
22:07
Why was getting those two companies so instrumental
22:12
in defeating the opposition, which were also companies
22:17
who didn't want to change, Judy?
22:20
Because they had already implemented a cruelty-free
22:26
business model.
22:28
John Paul DeJoy started his company with a
22:33
friend, I think it was 1975 or so,
22:37
John Paul Mitchell products.
22:39
And so he lived it, and for decades,
22:46
being a very successful company, dealing with the
22:51
supply chain, making sure everything was cruelty-free,
22:55
and the same with Lush, who had 300
22:59
stores in North America, I believe the number
23:02
was at the time.
23:03
So when we first introduced the bill and
23:08
we met with the opposition, the first thing
23:11
they said was, okay, well, you're going to
23:14
make everybody go out of business, and they're
23:17
going to move all their operations offshore, and
23:21
all these American jobs are going to be
23:23
lost, and there's no way to be able
23:26
to prove in the supply chain that everything
23:30
is cruelty-free.
23:32
And if we didn't have these enormous companies,
23:36
successful companies on our side to be able
23:40
to push back and say, it just isn't
23:43
true, and here's why, and we've been doing
23:46
it, we wouldn't have been able to get
23:49
it done.
23:50
It was mission critical to have them.
23:53
And here again is you at the state
23:57
capitol in Sacramento with a bunch of people
24:01
fighting for this bill, and obviously the giant
24:04
wrap provided by PETA, which is one of
24:07
the organisations you work with very closely, along
24:09
with Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, you as
24:13
a team of organisations pushing this, you also
24:18
had a lot of celebrities, and we've already
24:21
established that you do work with a lot
24:23
of celebrities, but what was the role that
24:26
celebrities played, Judy, in pushing this over the
24:31
finish line and other bills over the finish
24:33
line?
24:34
How do you utilise the celebrities?
24:36
Well, you know, the products manufacturers, they sign
24:44
on celebrities for millions and millions of dollars
24:47
to sell their products, and it's just that
24:51
they have a bigger audience.
24:53
People listen to them, they respect them, and
24:57
so if someone is saying, Bob Barker, Spay
25:04
and Uter saves lives at the end of
25:06
all of his shows throughout his lifetime, you
25:10
know, that really helps because, I mean, there's
25:15
a very small amount of people that know
25:17
who I am, but boy, do they know
25:19
who Bob Barker is, or Pierce Brosnan, or
25:24
Jean-Paul DuJour walking Phoenix, so it just
25:29
makes an enormous difference to have their voice
25:32
and their audiences pay attention to these really
25:38
important issues that otherwise they may not hear
25:41
about.
25:42
Well, I was there when you had celebrities
25:45
like Alicia Silverstone show up in Sacramento and
25:50
then walk around and meet the legislators, and
25:53
they go gaga.
25:54
They are just like anybody else.
25:57
When they see a celebrity, they get all
25:59
excited, and it really lets you get your
26:01
foot in the door and get into those
26:03
offices because they're not going to turn Alicia
26:06
Silverstone down and say, no, you can't come
26:08
in.
26:10
That's exactly right.
26:11
They do.
26:12
They enjoy it.
26:13
They like meeting them.
26:15
They want to hear what they have to
26:17
say.
26:17
You know, in Hollywood, everybody sees celebrities at
26:21
restaurants walking down the street, but it's not
26:25
exactly the same in Sacramento.
26:28
So, you know, when the celebrities come, yes,
26:31
they get attention, and definitely it's fun for
26:36
everyone.
26:37
Let's talk about the time that you heard
26:40
that, I believe it was the California Department
26:43
of Fish and Wildlife, had decided to basically
26:46
put out a hit on a mountain lion,
26:49
and these mountain lions, many environmental organisations are
26:53
desperate to save them, and yet here we
26:55
have our government going out and basically saying
26:59
we're going to kill them.
27:00
So what happened there?
27:01
Because that was something where social compassion and
27:03
legislation like moved into action very rapidly.
27:07
Yeah, this goes back to what I was
27:10
saying at the beginning of the show where,
27:12
you know, yes, the group was founded to
27:16
run legislation and do things that are positive
27:19
impacts for animals, saving and protecting them.
27:23
But sometimes we hear about things that we
27:26
have to go to battle and fight.
27:29
And what was on the news in the
27:33
evening on the radio was that there was
27:36
a mountain lion that was beloved, P-42,
27:40
or P-45, I think.
27:42
Yeah, P-45 was this one.
27:44
And he had eaten or attacked some alpacas,
27:52
which is terrible.
27:55
I mean, we all love alpacas too, but
27:58
the bottom line was the people had brought
28:02
these animals from outside the country, had them
28:07
in mountain lion territory, and they weren't protected.
28:11
So, you know, to kill a mountain lion
28:15
that we're trying to save from going extinct
28:20
because it's doing what a mountain lion would
28:24
do was absurd.
28:26
And so, yeah, we jumped into gear and
28:29
we raised a lot of noise and ruckus
28:32
over it and were able to stop it
28:35
and ended up helping the rancher to build
28:40
an enclosure for the alpacas.
28:43
And you had a news conference.
28:45
And for those who are watching, we're looking
28:48
at a snapshot from the news conference.
28:52
Well, we kind of took over.
28:55
We had heard that there was going to
28:57
be a meeting in Agora Hills about this
29:02
issue and safety that Fish and Game was
29:07
having.
29:08
And we decided to try to get there
29:11
and have a press conference prior to their
29:15
meeting to put pressure on them to not
29:19
kill P-45.
29:21
So it was, some were calling it a
29:24
guerrilla press conference because we had sent out
29:28
the press release and somehow Fish and Game
29:34
didn't get the memo.
29:36
And what had happened is, gosh, I mean,
29:39
there was probably a half dozen to a
29:41
dozen news trucks there.
29:44
Before I got there, I left Laguna Beach
29:46
trying to get to Agora Hills.
29:48
It was like a Friday and it took
29:51
me over three hours to get there.
29:53
And when I pulled in, the outside was
29:55
just lined with news trucks with their satellite
29:58
dishes up and everybody was like, get on
30:01
the stage, get on the stage, hurry.
30:04
And I ran to the stage and began
30:08
our little press conference, which turned out to
30:12
be very big and was on every channel
30:14
and was on a major morning show.
30:18
But it all worked and we were able
30:21
to save his life.
30:23
And it's all described in this book.
30:26
Now, if people donate to Social Compassion and
30:29
Legislation, $30 or more, they can get the
30:33
book sent to them for free.
30:35
And I have to tell you, these anecdotes
30:37
that we're discussing, they really play out in
30:40
very dramatic fashion.
30:41
Like I said, this book, it's not, yes,
30:44
it's about laws and legislation, but it really
30:46
reads like a thriller because you have so
30:49
many dramatic moments where people are trying to
30:52
shut you down.
30:54
People are offering you a million dollars.
30:56
People are threatening you.
30:57
There were some phrases that I learned that
31:00
I didn't know existed.
31:02
So I'd like you to define them.
31:04
And they come up in the book.
31:06
What does it mean astro-turfing, Nick Sackett?
31:10
What is astro-turfing?
31:12
Oh, geez.
31:13
Astro-turfing.
31:14
Judy, this is a term that you've used
31:17
before.
31:17
So I'm going to toss that back over
31:19
to Judy.
31:20
Well, that was in reference to hiring people
31:27
to look like they are support or opposition
31:32
to a bill.
31:35
So what had happened, this was on the
31:38
FER bill, that when there's people opposing a
31:45
bill, but they don't actually have people who
31:48
are opposed to the bill.
31:49
It's just the industry.
31:51
They will go and hire people to come
31:54
and act like they are opposition to the
31:58
bill.
31:58
And that's what that was referring to in
32:02
that chapter.
32:03
Yeah.
32:03
And in this book, you describe how in
32:07
this legislative hearing, all these people come up
32:11
against your bill and you tell one of
32:13
the legislators, those people are hired and she
32:16
doesn't believe you.
32:17
And you have to go and do some
32:19
investigative work to prove it.
32:22
Tell us about that.
32:23
Well, yeah, no, I could tell they were
32:26
hired right away.
32:28
I mean, after being at the Capitol for
32:30
17 years, you learn a lot and it
32:34
is by experience.
32:36
It's not something that you get taught in
32:40
a university.
32:42
So when these folks came to the microphone
32:45
one after another, I said, they're hired.
32:51
And Julie, who was with me at the
32:54
time said, how do you know that?
32:56
And I said, well, I just feel that
32:58
they are, I said, but I'm sure we
33:01
could probably find some proof.
33:05
And so Julie went and start investigating.
33:10
She did the digging and sure enough found
33:12
Facebook pages and others that were recruiting people
33:17
to be a part of this opposition.
33:21
And then when you went to the website
33:23
that they were promoting, they were actually paying,
33:27
they were recruiting students and paying them a
33:29
hundred dollars each to come and testify against
33:33
this bill.
33:35
So that's AstroTurfing.
33:37
I've seen that quite a few times when
33:39
I've gone to animal organisations, having a gala,
33:44
particularly PETA and you see these people with
33:46
signs, PETA kills or whatever.
33:48
And I asked them a question, well, tell
33:50
me what's your argument?
33:52
No clue because they're being paid.
33:54
You can tell that they're being paid.
33:58
So beware when you see people who are
34:01
going up against an organisation like PETA, which
34:03
you work with very closely and they're making
34:07
all sorts of accusations and you try to
34:09
get details.
34:09
They have no clue because they're actually being
34:11
paid by the hour.
34:12
I even saw one go on break because
34:14
they had to go on a lunch break,
34:15
which is not what activists do.
34:19
They don't say, okay, I'm going to drop
34:20
my sign and go on my lunch break
34:22
and come back.
34:22
So some of the other phrases that I
34:28
learned reading your book, you got to read
34:30
this, people.
34:30
It really is so interesting.
34:34
And I learned so much NASCAR letters.
34:37
What are NASCAR letters?
34:38
I'll let Nick take this one because he's
34:41
always having to do them.
34:44
A NASCAR letter, for those who don't know
34:48
NASCAR, a lot of the drivers that drive
34:52
these cars, it's race car driving.
34:54
On their uniform, they will have patches of
34:57
all of their sponsors.
34:59
And so they just have McDonald's and mobile
35:03
and they're covered.
35:05
And so sometimes when we need to turn
35:09
in a support letter or an opposition letter
35:12
against a bill or for a bill, and
35:14
we want to get a lot of organisations
35:16
to sign on to that letter, we have
35:20
to get their logos and their signatures and
35:22
we slap them onto a letter.
35:24
And the first page, sometimes into the second
35:27
page will just be their logos.
35:29
So we call that a NASCAR letter.
35:32
And it's just a big group of organisations
35:34
that are opposing or supporting a bill.
35:36
While I have you, what's relational lobbying?
35:42
Relational lobbying is really what it sounds like.
35:45
You have a relationship with a legislator and
35:49
so you're going to have access to that
35:52
legislator based on your history, based on how
35:57
they know you, not necessarily based on the
36:00
policy that's being discussed at hand.
36:03
So having those relationships is key because if
36:06
they don't know who you are and you
36:07
really need to talk to them about a
36:09
particular bill, you're relying on that relationship.
36:13
And what about lobbying up?
36:16
That's another phrase that comes up.
36:17
Lobbying up is hiring as many lobbyists as
36:21
you possibly can.
36:23
And I think what that's referring to in
36:26
the book is during the cosmetic fight, the
36:28
opposition hired tonnes of lobbyists.
36:33
We were in a meeting, an initial meeting
36:35
about the bill, and the opposition walked in
36:39
with 10, 12 lobbyists.
36:43
And there we were with just me, Judy,
36:46
and our contract lobbyists and a couple of
36:48
scientists, but no other lobbyists.
36:51
And so lobbying up is getting that lobby
36:55
firepower so that as soon as the opposition
36:59
sends their lobbyists in, well, we can send
37:02
our lobbyists in and counter their arguments.
37:05
And you have had a lot of success,
37:08
Judy, because some very, very important people who
37:13
are people of means have seen what you're
37:15
doing.
37:16
They love animals and they've donated.
37:18
Let's talk a little bit about Dr. Gary
37:20
Michelson who has had such a profound impact
37:23
on your efforts.
37:25
Well, that's right.
37:28
When I first started back in 2007, I
37:33
was doing it on my own dollar, but
37:39
found out very quickly, which I discuss in
37:43
depth in the book, of how I needed
37:46
to get organised.
37:49
And organised means having representation, having lobbyists, having
37:55
a big grassroots support network.
38:00
And even like Nick was saying, getting to
38:03
know legislators that you're not just a one
38:07
-hit wonder, that you're going to be there
38:10
year after year after year.
38:12
And so Dr. Michelson was one of the
38:15
first people I met along with another man
38:19
named Stephen Bernheim.
38:21
And we did a meeting in Los Angeles
38:26
and everyone invited everyone to come hear what
38:30
I was doing.
38:31
I was going to form my nonprofit and
38:34
that we needed to raise funds to start
38:37
hiring lobbyists and become a real group.
38:41
And so that's where it all started.
38:44
And they have been supporting my group since
38:47
then, along with a lot of others that
38:51
whether it's a $5 donation every month, $1
38:56
,000 here, 5,000, 10,000.
38:59
I mean, it's taken a lot to be
39:03
able to afford running these bills.
39:08
And that's why it wasn't getting done before.
39:13
And I also talk about my frustration with
39:17
the big groups who sit on outside of
39:21
PETA and PCRM, Centre for Biological Diversity, these
39:25
groups we work with.
39:26
But there's many groups that make lots, hundreds
39:31
of millions of dollars that they're just literally
39:34
have in the bank and that they spend
39:36
more money on operations and fundraising than anything
39:41
else.
39:41
So my little group, we are doing really
39:46
big things and relying on folks like Dr.
39:52
Michelson, Stephen, and all the small donors, everybody
39:56
to keep us going.
39:58
Now, let's talk a little bit about why
40:01
you are perfectly positioned to influence not just
40:04
California and the world.
40:06
As we've mentioned, California is the fifth largest
40:08
economy in the world, but it's also a
40:11
trend leader.
40:13
And you know what they say, what happens
40:14
in Hollywood spreads to the rest of the
40:16
nation and the world.
40:17
The Dining with Dogs Act was a perfect
40:20
example.
40:20
You go into it in the book, how
40:22
it passed here in California.
40:25
And then I happened to be in New
40:27
York at the time and I was like,
40:29
dang, I had three Chihuahua mixes and I
40:32
wanted to go to restaurants.
40:34
And you brought your act to New York
40:37
and we got it passed.
40:39
Tell us about how you're able to do
40:41
that.
40:41
It was not a small task, and I
40:46
have you to thank to be a huge
40:49
part of that.
40:50
So I had my lobbyist in California gave
40:55
me some recommendations of some firms in New
40:59
York.
41:00
So I flew to New York, I interviewed
41:03
the lobbyist, we went and spoke with a
41:07
legislator, assembly member Linda Rosenthal from Manhattan, who
41:14
happens to be a huge animal lover and
41:18
would be strong enough to carry this legislation.
41:24
Because there's a lot of legislators, they don't
41:28
want to stick their neck out for animals.
41:31
They just don't.
41:32
But she had a reputation that she absolutely
41:35
would.
41:37
And so met with the assembly member, met
41:40
with lobbyist, raised money, hired them.
41:45
And then actually without your help, Jane, we
41:49
wouldn't have gotten it done with the grassroots
41:52
support in New York.
41:55
And Nick also at the time was not
42:00
working with us in California.
42:02
He was in New York and just donating
42:05
his time pro bono to us at that
42:07
point.
42:08
And he was able to go to some
42:10
of those hearings and meetings too.
42:13
So we got it done.
42:14
And that was our first out of state
42:17
effort.
42:18
Let's talk a little bit about the most
42:20
important issue that affects the most animals, and
42:22
that's our food system.
42:24
And it's very sad because the number of
42:27
animals killed for food is not going down,
42:29
unfortunately.
42:31
I mean, literally, globally, it's 90 billion animals
42:37
every year.
42:38
I can't even say it because it's so
42:40
mind boggling.
42:41
And you can see the majority are chickens.
42:44
And then, of course, the environmental impact.
42:47
Here's a New York Times article.
42:48
It says vegans are responsible for 75%
42:51
less in greenhouse gases than meat eaters.
42:54
Obviously, if people transition to a plant-based
42:58
lifestyle, they're going to have a much lower
43:01
carbon footprint.
43:02
Now, you've been able to do some things
43:03
here in California to encourage a plant-based
43:07
lifestyle in hospitals, prisons, and schools.
43:10
Tell us about that.
43:12
Well, I will tell you personally, I went
43:16
vegan over 30 years ago now.
43:20
And I know that we can't do enough
43:25
to promote it and to help people maintain
43:29
the diet they choose and to help get
43:34
supported in school.
43:36
So the first bill that we did mandated
43:41
plant-based meal options in hospitals and other
43:48
kind of medical facilities and prisons.
43:52
We originally had schools in it, but that
43:55
got taken out because we knew that that
43:58
was going to be too big of a
43:59
fight and that there would need to be
44:01
some funding to go along with that.
44:05
So then we addressed schools later in a
44:09
funding bill to give money towards plant-based
44:12
food and milk in schools.
44:17
So we did get that done.
44:19
It was a huge accomplishment, but obviously there's
44:24
always more to do.
44:25
And yeah.
44:26
Okay.
44:27
I think I need a clarification because what
44:31
happened exactly with the schools?
44:33
Because we understand that to this day, there
44:37
are students who have to get a doctor's
44:39
note and there's been even lawsuits.
44:43
So just elaborate on that a little bit.
44:47
Yeah.
44:48
Well, and I can pass it to Nick
44:50
because he worked intimately on it as well.
44:53
So go ahead, take it Nick.
44:55
Sure.
44:56
At first, we tried to pass a bill
44:58
to set up a permanent grant programme.
45:01
But just to give you a quick reason,
45:05
the Cattlemen's Association and the other animal ag
45:10
industries came in and said they didn't want
45:12
vegan propaganda in our schools, which made us
45:16
all kind of snicker because they've been in
45:18
our schools promoting got milk for decades.
45:22
In any case, two years ago, we were
45:25
able to get a hundred million dollars in
45:27
the California budget to help schools upgrade their
45:31
kitchens to serve plant-based meals, including, and
45:34
milks.
45:37
So, you know, that has, and we partnered
45:41
with Friends of the Earth on that effort,
45:43
who gets into schools and really helps them
45:46
develop their plant-based programmes.
45:50
And all of that money, hundred million dollars
45:52
worth money went to those kinds of upgrades
45:54
and training staff so that they can cook
45:56
plant-based meals.
45:58
Because if you have kitchen staff that, you
46:00
know, doesn't know what to do, and they
46:02
just usually are used to taking a hamburger
46:05
and slapping it together, well, then that's what
46:08
they're going to serve the kids.
46:09
But once they have that knowledge and that
46:10
training, then they can broaden the plant-based
46:13
meals.
46:14
And that's exactly what the funding was for.
46:16
Have you had a chance to see how
46:18
it's going?
46:19
Has there been any audit or examination of
46:24
how schools are implementing?
46:25
Because implementation is one of the key aspects
46:29
of legislation.
46:30
I mean, I will talk to Prop 2
46:33
and Prop 12 passed by the voters of
46:35
California saying they want certain standards for animals
46:39
that are being bred for food in the
46:43
state.
46:44
And to my knowledge, there's never been a
46:45
prosecution based on either of those propositions, even
46:51
though there've been many examples of undercover investigations
46:55
that show that terrible things are happening and
46:57
prosecutors, district attorneys in various counties being pleaded
47:02
with, please enforce this law that the California
47:05
voters passed.
47:07
And they just refuse to do it because
47:09
they're beholden somehow to industry.
47:14
Yeah, absolutely.
47:15
It's a big problem.
47:17
Enforcement of animal cruelty laws is a big
47:20
problem across California and across the nation.
47:23
You know, I'll give you an example.
47:26
Puppy mills, they are supposed to be regulated
47:28
by the USDA.
47:32
And most puppy millers are breaking all the
47:36
Animal Welfare Act provisions, but they only get
47:40
a slap on the wrist if that.
47:43
So what you're saying is a huge problem.
47:46
We need more whistleblowers.
47:48
We need people from within these corporations to
47:52
speak out because local DAs and city attorneys,
47:59
they just don't want to take the word
48:02
of activists who are bringing them evidence.
48:03
Well, let me just say this.
48:05
It's not the word.
48:08
There's many organisations that have gone videotaping what's
48:13
happening in factory farms in California and showing
48:16
the horrors and presented with concrete evidence on
48:21
videotape of what's happening.
48:23
And the district attorneys refuse to prosecute.
48:26
It's not taking anybody's word.
48:27
Right, right.
48:28
No, it's special interest having a death grip
48:32
on our local jurisdictions, on legislators.
48:40
I mean, that's another thing that the book
48:42
is about, is just how hard, even though
48:46
you've got the proof, to move people because
48:51
of the special interest grip.
48:53
And that's a huge piece of it.
48:55
We have done auditing at the state level.
48:59
We just got some audit results about forest
49:06
risk commodities being purchased by the state of
49:10
California that had to do with our efforts
49:13
with the Deforestation Free Procurement Act.
49:16
We did an audit on the pet lovers
49:18
licence plate to make sure that every dollar
49:22
was going to where it needed to go
49:25
and was being spent properly.
49:26
So we have done audits at the state,
49:30
which has been mission critical, and they do
49:33
an incredible job.
49:35
But what you're talking about, about auditing prisons
49:39
and schools, about plant-based meals and hospitals,
49:44
it takes a lot of labour to call
49:49
and spot check.
49:50
And this is something that my group has
49:54
been discussing and looking into how we can
49:58
start doing that and doing some audits ourselves
50:02
that are more informal, but reaching out to
50:06
these facilities and asking for the menus.
50:10
So that's something that we are looking at,
50:13
Jane, and something we're very interested in and
50:16
wanting to work with PETA and PCRM and
50:19
the other groups that helped us over the
50:21
years to get these things passed and now
50:23
going back and making sure that they're getting
50:27
enforced.
50:28
And it's a process, not an event.
50:31
The first step is to pass the law,
50:33
which you have done.
50:35
You can't be asked to do everything under
50:37
the sun, although I know you try.
50:40
But when it comes to hospitals, I've personally
50:42
had a number of people say that they
50:45
cited that law and said, you have to
50:48
give me, and what they were given was
50:50
not substantial.
50:51
In other words, there's resistance.
50:53
And the people in these hospitals feel like,
50:57
I either don't want to do it or
51:00
they challenged the law.
51:01
Just the other day, I was at a
51:04
place and they said, your dog is not
51:08
allowed outside.
51:09
And I said, yes, it is.
51:11
This is a restaurant and there's something called
51:12
the Dining with Dogs Act.
51:14
And he asked me for the bill and
51:16
I called Nick.
51:18
And I said, Nick, will you send me
51:19
that legislation?
51:21
Now, the funny part is by the time
51:23
I went back to the restaurant, that person
51:24
had been let go.
51:26
Not the friendliest person on the planet, let's
51:28
put it that way.
51:29
But I had to actually, I was planning
51:32
on showing this person the law and saying,
51:34
yes, we're allowed as long as the owner
51:36
of the restaurant, and you're not the owner,
51:39
as long as the owner allows, and they
51:40
did, we're entitled to have our dogs on
51:43
this patio.
51:44
So it's really passing the law is the
51:46
first thing, but then it's enforcement.
51:48
And I'd really like to see more enforcement
51:51
with the hospitals, because obviously people are going
51:55
in there because they're suffering from whatever.
51:59
Cancer, heart disease, a lot of this has
52:01
been linked to dairy.
52:02
Processed meat is officially cancer causing, according to
52:06
the World Health Organisation.
52:08
So the idea that they're flouting this law
52:10
that you struggled so hard to pass is
52:13
outrageous, Judy.
52:15
Yes.
52:15
And we have helped people in hospitals before
52:19
that were like, hey, they're not giving me
52:21
a plant-based meal, and we sent them
52:23
the legislation as well.
52:26
And just in talking about this, I think
52:29
that we probably need to have a special
52:32
tab on our website that says, need help
52:38
with enforcement, and maybe giving recommendations on A,
52:44
just linking to the laws so people can
52:47
have it quickly to show people, or knowing
52:51
who to call within the local jurisdiction or
52:55
whether it's at the state to report that
52:58
they're not following the law.
53:00
So that is something we should look into,
53:03
and I'm glad it came up.
53:07
Well, a lot of things come up in
53:09
these conversations.
53:11
We often get to that point where we're
53:13
brainstorming on our podcasts.
53:15
We've got to wrap.
53:16
So please give us your final thoughts.
53:20
What's next?
53:21
Well, we've been trying to eliminate teachers using
53:29
live animal dissection in schools.
53:33
And it is not mandatory.
53:37
There's nothing in law that says that they
53:39
shall do it.
53:40
They elect to do it.
53:43
So we've had a couple of attempts at
53:46
trying to get rid of it, and we're
53:49
going to go back at it this year.
53:51
So that's one thing that we're working on.
53:54
The other action that we're looking into is
53:59
to bring out of state veterinarians in state
54:03
to be able to do high volume spay
54:07
and neuter.
54:08
So to get them a licence, to be
54:13
licenced in California as quickly as possible so
54:17
that they could do this, whether it's a
54:19
permanent full licence or a temporary licence.
54:23
We're looking into the logistics of all that
54:25
right now.
54:27
So we're working on that and the never
54:30
ending pet overpopulation crisis, unfortunately.
54:35
Well, I just want to say the two
54:37
of you are my heroes.
54:38
The amount of work that you have done
54:41
is mind boggling.
54:42
This book is a must read.
54:45
Oh, thank you.
54:46
Because if you donate to socialcompassionandlegislation.org, you
54:51
can get it sent to you.
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Just donate $30 or more.
54:55
Your work is extraordinary.
54:58
And of course, I also would love everybody
55:01
to download Unchained TV.
55:03
We are the world's only streaming television network,
55:06
nonprofit, free for animals and the plant based
55:09
lifestyle.
55:10
So it's a vegan Netflix.
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Okay, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard.
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I love Unchained TV.
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Your life will change.
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It's just that easy.
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