Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / BOMBSHELL! Handwriting experts say Tiger King star Carole Baskin’s missing hubby’s signature was 'traced'

Transcript

BOMBSHELL! Handwriting experts say Tiger King star Carole Baskin’s missing hubby’s signature was 'traced' · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Hi guys, Nancy Grace. Here, at a time when we
0:03
Speaker 1: are all pulling together to fight coronavirus COVID nineteen, I
0:08
Speaker 1: have something for you and all free E chapter on
0:14
Speaker 1: coronavirus crimes and how to fight them. Don't be a
0:19
Speaker 1: coronavirus crime victim. From door to door sales of fake
0:25
Speaker 1: cures and tests vaccines that's not real, to robocalls that
0:31
Speaker 1: are trying to scam you, to fake ads, to fishing
0:36
Speaker 1: you online, to fake cures that are being sold on
0:42
Speaker 1: the internet and on infomercials. Right now, you've got to
0:46
Speaker 1: arm yourself against these crimes. Please download our free E
0:52
Speaker 1: chapter Coronavirus Crimes. Don't be a victim. Go to crime
0:57
Speaker 1: online dot com. You'll see it there the link and
1:01
Speaker 1: download it for free. Arm yourself against criminals and scam artists,
1:07
Speaker 1: cons that will not only take advantage of you, but
1:11
Speaker 1: take advantage of you, your parents, your grandparents, and people
1:16
Speaker 1: you love. At a time well we are all fighting
1:20
Speaker 1: the virus. I hope you go to crime online dot
1:24
Speaker 1: com and download this. It's been highly researched and presented
1:29
Speaker 1: for you for free. Goodbye, friend, keep the faith by
1:40
Speaker 1: now there's nobody left in the United States that has
1:44
Speaker 1: a herd of Tiger King Joe Exotic, not his real name,
1:49
Speaker 1: who is now sitting behind bars for death threats on
1:53
Speaker 1: a competitor, Carol Baskin, but with all of the spotlight
1:58
Speaker 1: seemingly in her favor during the Tiger King Joe Exotic
2:03
Speaker 1: trial where he was found guilty, that spotlight may have
2:07
Speaker 1: turned into an unwanted spotlight in the last hours. It
2:12
Speaker 1: is alleged the experts that the signature of Tiger King
2:18
Speaker 1: Star Carol Baskins husband on his will is forged. Crime
2:32
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace it is alleged that the signature
2:45
Speaker 1: of Tiger King Star Carol Baskins husband on his will
2:52
Speaker 1: is forged. I Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank
2:57
Speaker 1: you for being with us. You know why. You could
2:59
Speaker 1: probably fix that by re executing the will. But Don Lewis,
3:04
Speaker 1: her husband, is long agone. I can tell you this.
3:07
Speaker 1: He didn't just disappear. He didn't take a hike. He
3:10
Speaker 1: did walk off into the sunset. He's dead. Take a
3:13
Speaker 1: listen to this. What a story. It's so wild, it
3:18
Speaker 1: must not be true. That's the first thing people think, Oh,
3:21
Speaker 1: come on, that can't be true. It's twenty years ago
3:25
Speaker 1: cold case. Twenty year old murders don't get solved. Well,
3:31
Speaker 1: it all starts, you know, Kalekin kal Meskin, who was
3:35
Speaker 1: Kale Lewis at the time, was married to Don lewisk
3:39
Speaker 1: oh Good. But I did see Don Lewis about maybe
3:42
Speaker 1: a month or so before he disappeared, and he didn't
3:47
Speaker 1: mention to me that he felt his life was in danger.
3:52
Speaker 1: There are so many strange twists in that story you
3:56
Speaker 1: would have to write books, volumes of the stuff that
3:59
Speaker 1: went wrong. There lives that are there, all the circumstantial
4:03
Speaker 1: evidence somebody did something too done. There's a lot of
4:07
Speaker 1: stories about Carol would having some finger in it, but
4:11
Speaker 1: nobody can prove it. You're hearing from Netflix special on
4:15
Speaker 1: Joe Exotic, including Joe Exotic himself, Joe Multinado passage. What
4:22
Speaker 1: is the truth? Now? You know you got to take
4:25
Speaker 1: the Netflix documentary with a box of salt, not a pinch,
4:29
Speaker 1: because you not that as Netflix's fault. But the people
4:33
Speaker 1: that are speaking have never been cross examined. We don't
4:36
Speaker 1: know the other side of their story. But with me
4:39
Speaker 1: now to break you down and put it all back
4:41
Speaker 1: together again as best as we can, and this juncture
4:44
Speaker 1: is a special guest, longtime lawyer and friend of Carol
4:49
Speaker 1: Baskin's missing husband, Don Lewis, Joseph Fritz, Tom Vastrik, the
4:56
Speaker 1: forensic document examiner handwriting ex Bert who was very carefully
5:01
Speaker 1: examined the will and all the documents. Karen Stark, New
5:05
Speaker 1: York Psychologists joining us today. You can find her at
5:07
Speaker 1: Karen Stark dot com, Director of the Cold Case Research Institute,
5:12
Speaker 1: crime scene expert Cheryl McCollum, and Crime online dot com
5:17
Speaker 1: investigative reporter Levi Page. Now you were just hearing from
5:22
Speaker 1: the documentary Netflix about Tiger King. Okay, Tiger King is
5:27
Speaker 1: in jail right now for he belongs for death threats,
5:31
Speaker 1: very public death threats on Carol Baskin. But all that
5:35
Speaker 1: attention heaped on Tiger King, that Carol Baskin herself whipped
5:40
Speaker 1: up as now directed to her now, Cheryl McCollum, Director
5:45
Speaker 1: Coldcase Research Institute. That's quite a turn of events, isn't it.
5:49
Speaker 1: That first she wanted the attention on exotic, but now
5:52
Speaker 1: that same spotlights on her and it ain't pretty, it
5:56
Speaker 1: ain't pretty, and it ain't going away, Nancy. That spotlight
6:00
Speaker 1: he missed thing up. You know, I'm finding more about
6:03
Speaker 1: the zoo industry than I ever wanted to know. Take
6:07
Speaker 1: a listen to this. I don't believe she ever appeared
6:12
Speaker 1: overwhelmingly heartbroken that her husband was missing. I don't know
6:16
Speaker 1: if it's because he had another life with the mistress
6:19
Speaker 1: down in Costa Rica, if she knew this marriage was
6:23
Speaker 1: coming to an end. But again, my wife is my world.
6:28
Speaker 1: If it was yesterday, today, or twenty years from now,
6:32
Speaker 1: I would dedicate my life. I would post rewards everywhere,
6:36
Speaker 1: there would be signs everywhere. My new life's work would
6:40
Speaker 1: be trying to find my wife. This never happened, No,
6:45
Speaker 1: it never did happen. You were hearing Sheriff Chad Kronister
6:49
Speaker 1: telling me about what he observed and what was observed
6:53
Speaker 1: by others at the time Don Lewis goes missing straight
6:57
Speaker 1: out to you special guests joining us attorney and longtime
7:00
Speaker 1: confidant of Don Lewis, who I believe is dead, Joseph Ritch,
7:06
Speaker 1: Joseph Fritz. I'm gonna go back to the time that
7:08
Speaker 1: he goes missing. But what do you make of the
7:10
Speaker 1: new bombshell that this document? The will is absolutely no
7:15
Speaker 1: doubt about it forged. I think I've got Joseph Fritz
7:19
Speaker 1: with me. Is he still upwards a satellite drop? Joy there? Okay,
7:24
Speaker 1: let me know when we get him back. In the meantime,
7:26
Speaker 1: I'll circle to Tom Vastrick, forensic document examiner, handwriting expert.
7:31
Speaker 1: Same question to you, Tom, what do you make of it? Well?
7:35
Speaker 1: In conducting the examination of the Durable Family Power of
7:40
Speaker 1: Attorney and the will, both of which were created on
7:43
Speaker 1: November twenty one and nineteen ninety six, I was struck
7:47
Speaker 1: by the uncanny similarity between each set of signatures, not
7:54
Speaker 1: only Don Lewis's signatures, but the two witness signatures and
7:59
Speaker 1: the notary signatures. When I crossed compared each of those
8:04
Speaker 1: sets of signatures, they were just ridiculously similar to each other.
8:10
Speaker 1: It wasn't an exact replication, because if you have exact replication,
8:15
Speaker 1: what that means it's just a copy of one signature.
8:18
Speaker 1: But it was nearly exact replication to the extempt that
8:22
Speaker 1: I was very confidently able to oppine that what I
8:25
Speaker 1: was dealing with with, at least mister Lewis's signature, was
8:31
Speaker 1: that these signatures were traced, and they were traced using
8:34
Speaker 1: a model from a marriage record that had been executed
8:39
Speaker 1: and filed with the county five years before the execution
8:46
Speaker 1: of the will. We wait, Guys with me is handwriting
8:50
Speaker 1: expert Thomas Vastrik, and he says the will, signatures and
8:55
Speaker 1: power of attorney documents related to Don Lewis, the long
9:00
Speaker 1: missing husband of Carol Baskin, are forged. Now, let me
9:05
Speaker 1: understand what you're saying. Typically, I think handmriding experts, and
9:09
Speaker 1: I've direct and cross examined quite a few of them,
9:13
Speaker 1: they like it when your signature matches your last known signature.
9:18
Speaker 1: But you're telling me that all the signatures had basically
9:24
Speaker 1: been forged, not just Don Lewis, that like the witness,
9:27
Speaker 1: the notary, everybody's was forged. Well, I understand as a
9:31
Speaker 1: document examiner, I don't use the word forged because that's
9:34
Speaker 1: a legal term. But it's my opinion that these signatures
9:39
Speaker 1: are traced traced. Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna follow your
9:44
Speaker 1: example and say traced traced off the marriage document or
9:48
Speaker 1: Don Lewis. Yes, I do not have the source document
9:51
Speaker 1: for either the notary or the two other witnesses, so
9:55
Speaker 1: I have to leave open the possibility that of each
9:58
Speaker 1: set of signatures. There were three three, three signatures of
10:03
Speaker 1: each of the notary and the two witnesses. Since I
10:08
Speaker 1: do not have the model signature from anyone else other
10:12
Speaker 1: than Lewis, all I could say at this point is
10:15
Speaker 1: at least two of them were traced. One of them
10:18
Speaker 1: could be genuine. Theoretically which one was? We're traced, tom Well,
10:23
Speaker 1: I can't say for a fact until such time as
10:26
Speaker 1: I locate a model signature for them. But with mister Lewis,
10:30
Speaker 1: we have found the model signature. Now you told the
10:34
Speaker 1: Clarion Ledger that Don Lewis's signature was traced on the
10:41
Speaker 1: will the power of attorney as well time stories with
10:59
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Guys, if the signature of Don Lewis was traced,
11:08
Speaker 1: Carol Baskin as in a whole world of trouble. Now,
11:14
Speaker 1: handwriting experts can disagree, So maybe she can find a
11:18
Speaker 1: handwriting example expert there will say something entirely different. In
11:22
Speaker 1: the meantime, listen to this. The investigation indicated Carol had
11:27
Speaker 1: left Wildlife on Easy Street to drive to a nearby
11:31
Speaker 1: store named Albertson's to pick up some milk by products
11:35
Speaker 1: for the catch. This is at three o'clock in the morning,
11:38
Speaker 1: her car broke down and Carol and ran into her brother,
11:43
Speaker 1: who was accompanied by another deputy. The second deputy gave
11:48
Speaker 1: her a ride back to her home. After that, Carol
11:54
Speaker 1: indicated the last time that she saw her husband was
11:57
Speaker 1: just several hours later and never seen again. And I
12:01
Speaker 1: don't know, but I would have hoped that the detectives
12:03
Speaker 1: would have pursued that and made sure that there was
12:07
Speaker 1: nothing out of the ordinary about that. Maybe if you
12:13
Speaker 1: have a sheriff that's in there that's saying, you know, hey,
12:16
Speaker 1: this guy's kind of crazy and you know, dementia and
12:19
Speaker 1: he does this all the time, he's probably in you know,
12:22
Speaker 1: maybe the sheriff's partner would drag your feet at that
12:24
Speaker 1: point and be like, well, you know, let's just wait
12:25
Speaker 1: and see where it goes. Guys, you're taking you're hearing
12:29
Speaker 1: the movements of Carol baskin the night that Don Lewis
12:33
Speaker 1: seemingly vanished off the face of the earth, or did
12:37
Speaker 1: he now. New allegations are being raised because in the
12:41
Speaker 1: last hours, a handwriting expert says there's no doubt about
12:45
Speaker 1: it in his mind. Don Lewis, Carrol Baskin's missing husband
12:50
Speaker 1: signature was traced on the will. So what about the
12:55
Speaker 1: witness that says they saw him sign the will? Guess
12:58
Speaker 1: what that witness Hazri Canton and says, no, they did
13:02
Speaker 1: not witness him signing the wheel. That in itself is
13:05
Speaker 1: a problem. And why is Carol Baskin out getting tiger
13:09
Speaker 1: milk at three am in the morning? When Don Lewis
13:15
Speaker 1: goes missing? To leave, I page climb online dot Com
13:18
Speaker 1: investigative reporter leave, Let's start at the beginning. Let's start
13:22
Speaker 1: with him going missing. What can you tell me? So?
13:27
Speaker 1: Carol Baskin said, the last time that she saw her husband,
13:31
Speaker 1: Don Lewis, was twenty three years ago, August eighteenth, nineteen
13:34
Speaker 1: ninety seven, and she said that the last thing that
13:37
Speaker 1: he said to her was that he was leaving early, early,
13:41
Speaker 1: early the next morning to transport cars to Costa Rica.
13:46
Speaker 1: He visited there often and he was reported missing August nineteenth,
13:51
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven. And then days later, his van was
13:55
Speaker 1: found abandoned at the airport forty miles away from the sanctuary,
14:01
Speaker 1: and the keys were in the floorboard in a brief
14:05
Speaker 1: his briefcase was found inside. You know, I spoke in
14:08
Speaker 1: depth with people at that airport and they indicate that
14:12
Speaker 1: it's so small they would definitely have seen Don Lewis
14:16
Speaker 1: pulling in. Guys, we are talking about a bobshell allegation
14:20
Speaker 1: made in the last hours that the will signed by
14:24
Speaker 1: Carol Basket's missing husband Don Lewis was forged. Straight out
14:30
Speaker 1: to Cheryl mccollin, Director Coalcase Research Institute, way in Fancy,
14:35
Speaker 1: My issue is the pre and post behavior of Caryl Basket.
14:40
Speaker 1: So if she went to that store at three am,
14:45
Speaker 1: how many times prior had she ever done that? I
14:48
Speaker 1: want to know that. The second thing, excuse me, you
14:52
Speaker 1: and I or in a career Nancy, where people come
14:57
Speaker 1: to us if anything criminally has gone on with a
15:00
Speaker 1: loved one in their family. Even Chucky Mask, his mama
15:04
Speaker 1: reached out to your brother, who immediately came to you.
15:08
Speaker 1: I mean, they just do that. I want to know
15:10
Speaker 1: why her brother has not been front and center on
15:12
Speaker 1: this thank He didn't put out any posters, he didn't
15:15
Speaker 1: become the family spokesperson, he didn't go to the sheriff
15:18
Speaker 1: and say, didn't We've got to find my brother in law.
15:21
Speaker 1: He's been virtually ma that I can find So forget
15:24
Speaker 1: Carol not searching and not putting up posters and not
15:27
Speaker 1: offering a reward. The lawman and the family didn't do
15:30
Speaker 1: it either. Back to forensic document examinery handwriting expert Tom Vastrik, Tom,
15:35
Speaker 1: how did you get involved in the case? I was
15:39
Speaker 1: asked to sunducting examination for a couple of different newspapers,
15:43
Speaker 1: one in Tampa and one in Jackson, Mississippi. And it
15:48
Speaker 1: was the investigative reporters that submitted the documentation to me
15:52
Speaker 1: for examination. And what documents were you examining? Well? In
15:57
Speaker 1: addition to the will, the durable power turn, I was
16:01
Speaker 1: provided the marriage record form. I was provided a number
16:05
Speaker 1: of different notarized document notorization documents from the notary and
16:14
Speaker 1: about twenty documents with mister Lewis's signature on the joining me. Now,
16:19
Speaker 1: I think we've managed to get a satellite up. Is
16:21
Speaker 1: a longtime friend and lawyer for missing husband Don Lewis.
16:25
Speaker 1: Joseph Fritz. Joseph Fritz, thank you, thank you for being
16:29
Speaker 1: with us. I got a question for you. Have you
16:31
Speaker 1: heard the latest bombshell that, according to at least one
16:36
Speaker 1: handwriting expert, that will was traced, that signature is not
16:43
Speaker 1: Don Lewis's. Well, first, I want to correct something. It's
16:47
Speaker 1: not a will. It's a part of attorney. Part of
16:50
Speaker 1: attorney handles your affairs while you're alive. It dies with
16:53
Speaker 1: the person. Only a testamentary trust for a will can
16:58
Speaker 1: handle it. Patrick. He is saying, actually that the will
17:02
Speaker 1: and the power of attorney were both traced off the
17:06
Speaker 1: marriage record. I don't much care about the will, huh.
17:11
Speaker 1: I don't care about that. She managed to move their
17:13
Speaker 1: money and assets and property via the power of attorney,
17:16
Speaker 1: not the will. Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on,
17:18
Speaker 1: hold on. You're talking lawyer talk talk, regular people talk.
17:22
Speaker 1: You're saying that the power of attorney is what Carol Baskin,
17:27
Speaker 1: according to you, used to move all the money and assets,
17:32
Speaker 1: not the will. Too had too because he wasn't declared
17:36
Speaker 1: dead for five years later. Yes, brilliant, Yes, absolutely, So
17:43
Speaker 1: let me tell you. Let me point out some mills. Yeah,
17:45
Speaker 1: Carol certifies that that's her signature on the power of
17:48
Speaker 1: attorney because she used that power of attorney to transfer
17:52
Speaker 1: all of their assets. Okay, hold on, let me let
17:54
Speaker 1: me interpret what you're saying as a lawyer. So Don
17:58
Speaker 1: Lewis goes miss. But even though she is the now
18:03
Speaker 1: sole beneficiary of all of his money, if he dies
18:07
Speaker 1: or quote disappears, that's a funny clause. And a will,
18:11
Speaker 1: all the money's gonna go to hurt. But until he
18:13
Speaker 1: is declared dad, which takes five years in that jurisdiction,
18:17
Speaker 1: she can't do anything under the will, but under a
18:20
Speaker 1: power of attorney, which gives somebody control over your state
18:25
Speaker 1: when you're incapacitated or missing, the power of attorney can
18:30
Speaker 1: move all your money anyway they want to. Now I
18:35
Speaker 1: get why you don't care about the will. That threw
18:38
Speaker 1: me for a loop, just for a moment, But now
18:39
Speaker 1: I get it. Okay, let me rephrase my question. What
18:42
Speaker 1: do you make of it? Joseph Frit's, long time attorney
18:46
Speaker 1: and confidant of Don lewis that at least one handwriting
18:50
Speaker 1: expert says the power of attorney and will were traced
18:55
Speaker 1: off the marriage document. Somebody said at my office had
19:00
Speaker 1: had the pictures and was able to lay one over
19:03
Speaker 1: the other on their cell phone and they are a
19:05
Speaker 1: perfect match. Even I agree with that. Um, I believe
19:09
Speaker 1: it was traced heard several handwriting. I think there's as
19:12
Speaker 1: many as six and ready experts. Now I think it's
19:16
Speaker 1: up to six. One of one of them m is
19:19
Speaker 1: the one that did to take Kazynski Uni bomber case. Wow,
19:23
Speaker 1: that's not shabby. No no, no, no, that's high high, high,
19:26
Speaker 1: high high. You know things, A high paid expert right there. Hey,
19:33
Speaker 1: Joseph Fritz, have you ever in court? Because I have
19:36
Speaker 1: brought on a handwriting expert once, really, because I can't
19:42
Speaker 1: find many lawyers that have done it, so I always
19:45
Speaker 1: like to, you know, brag that I have done it
19:47
Speaker 1: many times. But my first one was a bank robbery note.
19:51
Speaker 1: Lucky for me, that bank robber was also dyslexic, so
19:56
Speaker 1: he would flip letters and he did the same thing
20:00
Speaker 1: in the bank robbery note that he did in his
20:01
Speaker 1: handwriting exemplar. So that was very persuasive. But that's where
20:08
Speaker 1: I learned about how you make your A and your
20:11
Speaker 1: B and how you dot your eye and literally cross
20:14
Speaker 1: your tea. What case did you have where you used
20:17
Speaker 1: a handwriting expert? Believe it or not? I think was
20:20
Speaker 1: it a bankruptcy adversary proceeding? Oh? I do believe it.
20:23
Speaker 1: People will lie about money, and that's what I think
20:28
Speaker 1: we may have here. So you don't expect a perfect
20:33
Speaker 1: likeness for every signature. There should be some derivation and spacing.
20:40
Speaker 1: But what did you observe when you put one over
20:43
Speaker 1: the other. Joseph Fritz identical, just identical, perfect match time
21:03
Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about the disappearance
21:08
Speaker 1: and as Joseph Fritz and I belie death of Don Lewis.
21:13
Speaker 1: Now we have one handwriting expert who has actually looked
21:17
Speaker 1: at the documents, very well respected in his profession, Tom Vastrik,
21:23
Speaker 1: and he says it was traced. That's the way what
21:28
Speaker 1: we call forged. All right, if they were forged, Joseph Fritz,
21:33
Speaker 1: what does that mean, Well, it means that she wrongfully
21:38
Speaker 1: and has to at least be called to do that
21:41
Speaker 1: because she says that that's her signature. She is what
21:43
Speaker 1: we would call stops for the diamond because she used
21:46
Speaker 1: that power of attorney to transferred properties, would move moneies, tshit,
21:51
Speaker 1: use any of the Indian things she had to do.
21:53
Speaker 1: She used it and said that's that's me. I believe
21:57
Speaker 1: that it was a forgery. From what I've said, I
22:01
Speaker 1: believe the statue of limitations has run twenty one years ago.
22:04
Speaker 1: Thank you, Sheriff's department. The statue on forgery has run.
22:10
Speaker 1: But there's a lot bigger kettle of fish brewing than
22:13
Speaker 1: the forgery, the alleged forgery. Of course, of course there is,
22:17
Speaker 1: and there's no statue. There's no limitation on that. But
22:20
Speaker 1: my point is I was interviewed after Tiger came by
22:23
Speaker 1: our sheriff's department, finally twenty four years late. But anyway,
22:27
Speaker 1: I was, and I mentioned something about the power of attorney.
22:33
Speaker 1: The two signatures have done in the cattle on the
22:35
Speaker 1: same same document, And our Sheriff's department said that they
22:40
Speaker 1: had a handwriting expert too. Would you deal with a
22:44
Speaker 1: murdered detective or homicide detective? Information is a one way streat.
22:48
Speaker 1: You never told me what they're what they're handwriting, guys said,
22:51
Speaker 1: But he said they had examined subal documents, quite a
22:54
Speaker 1: few documents. Did you ask him, Yes, I did. I
22:57
Speaker 1: just got I got a brick wall information. There's a
23:00
Speaker 1: one way street with a detective. You know that, you
23:03
Speaker 1: know you know who is that way the FEDS. And
23:06
Speaker 1: I was a fed myself before I became a violent
23:09
Speaker 1: crime prosecutor. You try to get the Feds to tell
23:12
Speaker 1: you anything. Forget about it, guys. Now another development, if
23:17
Speaker 1: you can imagine that in the case of Tiger King,
23:19
Speaker 1: Joe Exotic and Carol Baskin, more than one handwriting expert
23:24
Speaker 1: has come forward to say Don Lewis's will and power
23:28
Speaker 1: of attorney were traced, traced overly. When you were in
23:32
Speaker 1: grammar school or high school, you wanted to sign your
23:35
Speaker 1: parents name to something, hold it up to the window
23:37
Speaker 1: and trace it over. Not that I would ever do that,
23:39
Speaker 1: but that's what we're talking about, and regular people talk forged.
23:45
Speaker 1: Forged would be the legal term. But what about all
23:50
Speaker 1: of those witnesses, those witnesses that claim they were there
23:54
Speaker 1: when the will was signed? Could you please play cut eleven.
23:58
Speaker 1: Take a listen to what Sheriff Chad Kronister tells me.
24:02
Speaker 1: One of the individuals who came forward and said that
24:05
Speaker 1: she witnessed all the signatures fast forward from nineteen ninety
24:09
Speaker 1: seven to two thousand and six. She came forward said
24:12
Speaker 1: she felt pressured at the time to say that it
24:16
Speaker 1: was signed by everyone, and then she wanted to recant
24:19
Speaker 1: her story and said she did not witness the signatures. Well,
24:23
Speaker 1: who pressured her to write to sign that she saw
24:27
Speaker 1: Don Lewis sign as will who pressured her. According to her, well,
24:33
Speaker 1: there's one person that's not here any longer, so I
24:36
Speaker 1: think we could all deduct the fact that it had
24:40
Speaker 1: to be Carol. And I think she says that in
24:41
Speaker 1: her statement, I'm pretty confident. She says that she to
24:45
Speaker 1: prove her allegiance to Carol, that she felt pressured into
24:49
Speaker 1: saying that she witnessed those signatures. And again as time
24:53
Speaker 1: goes forward, she feels more comfortable once to get off
24:56
Speaker 1: her chest, calls investigators with our office and says, hey, listen,
25:00
Speaker 1: I have to tell you I didn't witness that will
25:03
Speaker 1: being signed. That is a huge bombshell that a witness
25:10
Speaker 1: comes forward, Cheryl McCollum, you're the Cold Case Research Institute
25:14
Speaker 1: director on a will, when the witness to the will
25:17
Speaker 1: comes forward and goes, I really didn't see what I
25:21
Speaker 1: said I saw. That's huge, Cheryl McCollum. That is tremendous.
25:26
Speaker 1: And not get that, Nancy. Every single person that watch
25:30
Speaker 1: that series Tiger King Fall firsthand. When Carol Baskin wants
25:35
Speaker 1: to put on a full court prayer, you want to
25:38
Speaker 1: talk about pressure, She comes after you with everything she got.
25:42
Speaker 1: She brings other nonprofits in, She starts creating ways to
25:46
Speaker 1: change laws to come after you. She makes comments and newspapers.
25:50
Speaker 1: She does all of this before you ever even meet her.
25:54
Speaker 1: You know, I'm thinking back, and I mean talking about
25:58
Speaker 1: taking somebody's comment with a box of sault. How about
26:00
Speaker 1: a pound of sault to everything? Joe Exotic says, don't
26:03
Speaker 1: get mad at me, but that man lies every time
26:05
Speaker 1: his lips moved, So I can't really put any credence
26:10
Speaker 1: in what he says. But now that handwriting experts are
26:15
Speaker 1: coming forward, Now that we know at least one witness
26:19
Speaker 1: is saying I did not witness the will being signed,
26:23
Speaker 1: this is changing the landscape of this case drastically. I've
26:28
Speaker 1: been withholding judgment on Carol Baskin because it's hard to
26:32
Speaker 1: have a clear head when all you're hearing is hype. Well,
26:36
Speaker 1: you don't know the real facts. But I keep going
26:40
Speaker 1: back to when he disappeared. Do you remember, hey, let's
26:45
Speaker 1: hear cut eighteen. There was never any reward posted for
26:49
Speaker 1: his disappearance. Was there ever an online plea or a
26:55
Speaker 1: televised plea to help find him? Buy Carol Baskin again,
27:02
Speaker 1: it's my understanding there was never any type of overt
27:05
Speaker 1: action taken to try to find out where her husband was.
27:11
Speaker 1: Do you know, Sheriff Chronster, if she came to the
27:14
Speaker 1: Sheriff's office day in, day out, week by week trying
27:18
Speaker 1: to find out what's the latest in my husband's disappearance.
27:22
Speaker 1: I do know that the answers no, that that never happened.
27:27
Speaker 1: Even as recent as two eleven. Was the last communication
27:30
Speaker 1: that we had for her, And that's when we asked
27:32
Speaker 1: her to come in to take a polygraph, and she declines,
27:35
Speaker 1: said it wouldn't vindicate her of any type of in
27:39
Speaker 1: any way, shape or form, and at the same time,
27:41
Speaker 1: it wouldn't prohibit the Sheriff's office from taking future criminal
27:44
Speaker 1: actions against her, So she declined to take a polygraph.
27:48
Speaker 1: Not only does Tom Vastek forensic document examiner, handwriting experts
27:53
Speaker 1: say the will the power of attorney was traced translation
27:58
Speaker 1: forged their handwriting. The expert Willa Smith concurs and says
28:04
Speaker 1: the signature was quote the product of tracing. And it
28:09
Speaker 1: goes on and on. Now six experts to Joseph Fritz,
28:14
Speaker 1: friend and longtime lawyer for Don Lewis, which another piece
28:18
Speaker 1: of listening to this Jackie circumstantial evidence. Fritz has been
28:23
Speaker 1: his lawyer and his friend for twenty plus years, but
28:28
Speaker 1: he doesn't go to Fritz to get his will drawn up.
28:33
Speaker 1: I mean, Fritz probably has one space to intern operating procedure.
28:37
Speaker 1: Will is printed out of the computer and sign it bam.
28:41
Speaker 1: I find that very, very odd that he didn't go
28:44
Speaker 1: to Fritz to write up his will. So, Joseph Fritz,
28:49
Speaker 1: do you remember when you heard Don Lewis was missing?
28:53
Speaker 1: A yeah from Ann McQueen. And what first crossed your
28:57
Speaker 1: mind when you learned he was gone? A play? You know,
29:00
Speaker 1: That's what people, friends, relatives I murder victims say all
29:05
Speaker 1: the time when the person goes missing. They go, oh,
29:07
Speaker 1: they're not missing, they're dead. I can tell you that
29:10
Speaker 1: right now. And that's not just a jumping the gun.
29:15
Speaker 1: That's based on years of observation. So at this juncture,
29:23
Speaker 1: Joseph Fritz, when you'll look back on the time around
29:26
Speaker 1: when Don Luis goes missing, do you remember how Carol
29:30
Speaker 1: Baskin went out that night at three am for tiger
29:32
Speaker 1: milk and then her car broke down and she had
29:35
Speaker 1: a witness from the Sheriff's depart become help her. And
29:40
Speaker 1: it was therefore documented every which way that she was
29:45
Speaker 1: on her own out and about at the time he disappeared.
29:48
Speaker 1: Do you remember that I've heard that, Yeah, but I
29:50
Speaker 1: remember that I didn't see it. Do you remember hearing
29:53
Speaker 1: about his vehicle being found at the airport with his
29:56
Speaker 1: briefcase and his keys in it? Would he have ever
29:59
Speaker 1: done that? He could be a little stead of brain,
30:04
Speaker 1: but he was. He was together. He might have left
30:07
Speaker 1: his keys somewhere or something, but he wouldn't leave a
30:08
Speaker 1: van and a briefcase and papers and keys and everything.
30:12
Speaker 1: He wouldn't do it. What if anything can be done?
30:15
Speaker 1: We know that the Statue of limitations which says a
30:18
Speaker 1: criminal case you can only even brought for X number
30:21
Speaker 1: of years after the crime on forgery, on any alleged forgery.
30:26
Speaker 1: I'm sure Carol Baskin denies this. What do we do now, Fritz?
30:33
Speaker 1: Somewhere in the course of time, somebody needs to call
30:36
Speaker 1: this what it is, a murder investigation. It's not even
30:40
Speaker 1: classified as that, as last I heard. How hard is that? Really?
30:43
Speaker 1: Want to point out? Go ahead, the sheriff can flip
30:46
Speaker 1: a switch and it's a murder investigation. It's not hard
30:50
Speaker 1: at all. You don't need to open something. I mean
30:53
Speaker 1: it's open, it's just idling, kind of been neutral. But
30:57
Speaker 1: the interine is running. Cheryl McCollum, how hard would it be.
31:02
Speaker 1: It's not hard at all. And I honestly believe that's
31:04
Speaker 1: the scene done right now. I believe that the Sheriff's
31:07
Speaker 1: apartment is working it to see what they can piece together.
31:10
Speaker 1: I know for a fact they've reinterviewed people. And I
31:13
Speaker 1: think this case is kind of in overdrive, reckless minute
31:17
Speaker 1: because Nancy, here's one of the most important things to me.
31:20
Speaker 1: Carol Baskins supposedly went and picked that van up and
31:23
Speaker 1: drove it home. Yet when that van was processed, there
31:26
Speaker 1: was no fingerprints in it none. Well, her should have
31:29
Speaker 1: been in it. Time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, take
31:49
Speaker 1: a listen to our cut fifteen. What Chrimester says about
31:54
Speaker 1: the disappearance of Don lewis we have a little window
31:58
Speaker 1: there when who's this appearance occurred from the day almost
32:02
Speaker 1: two days that it took for her to report him,
32:05
Speaker 1: and a couple of days that people had besides her
32:08
Speaker 1: that hadn't seen him. You have a few days in
32:10
Speaker 1: there that I believe that's when that's when he was killed.
32:17
Speaker 1: So we've got about a four hour, excuse me, a
32:20
Speaker 1: four day window where he could have been killed. Nobody
32:25
Speaker 1: saw him at Big Cat, no one, no banker, no friend,
32:29
Speaker 1: no lawyer. Nobody saw him for about two days before
32:33
Speaker 1: he went to Costa Rica. That's it. No telephone calls,
32:39
Speaker 1: no business transactions. So again I think that these are
32:43
Speaker 1: more details that only make make this death more suspicious
32:47
Speaker 1: and only lead us to believe that again it was
32:51
Speaker 1: a homicide. You know, Karen start with me. New York
32:54
Speaker 1: psychologists joining us at karen start dot com. Karen, I've
32:58
Speaker 1: just been thinking a lot of about the witness that
33:01
Speaker 1: now comes forward claiming that she did not witness Don
33:08
Speaker 1: Lewis signed the will, that she was pressured into it.
33:13
Speaker 1: You know, I think that you know, according to Freud,
33:17
Speaker 1: your personality is formed by the time you're four. And
33:23
Speaker 1: the twins told me the other day that one of
33:27
Speaker 1: their classmates texted them that they wanted the answers because
33:33
Speaker 1: they've both made as in math and John David made
33:36
Speaker 1: a ninety nine point eight. They wanted the twins to
33:40
Speaker 1: give them answers to the final exam. They said no,
33:46
Speaker 1: And these were some of their good little friends, and
33:50
Speaker 1: they both said, no, don't worry. I've looked at their
33:52
Speaker 1: text to make sure they're telling me the truth. How
33:56
Speaker 1: do you suddenly one day just flick a switch, I
34:01
Speaker 1: decide you're going to do the wrong thing. And something
34:04
Speaker 1: as important as a multi million dollar estate like Don
34:09
Speaker 1: Lewis's was so much riding on it. What kind of
34:13
Speaker 1: coercion would make you just go, sure, I'll fake it. Well, Nancy,
34:18
Speaker 1: this sounds to me very self serving. The coercion I
34:23
Speaker 1: would expect, or maybe smile had to do with the
34:29
Speaker 1: money and how much money she might have been getting.
34:32
Speaker 1: But what's interesting is that this witness didn't seem to
34:35
Speaker 1: come forward until everyone started to question what happened to him,
34:41
Speaker 1: and they question what happened to him because of the
34:43
Speaker 1: success of the documentary. All of a sudden, there was
34:46
Speaker 1: this glaring gap of this man. He disappeared, How did
34:52
Speaker 1: he disappear? What became of him? And so this witness,
34:56
Speaker 1: I'm assuming just decided, you know what I'm going to
34:59
Speaker 1: get in a lot of t i'd better come forward.
35:01
Speaker 1: And I think that's what happened. I see what you're saying.
35:04
Speaker 1: It's not a sudden fit of veracity, or suddenly you
35:08
Speaker 1: take off your devil's horns and put on a halo.
35:11
Speaker 1: All right, you think, okay, he's missing. He was killed
35:15
Speaker 1: for money? Maybe, And I'm the one that witnessed the will,
35:19
Speaker 1: row I better cough up. Now we'll listen to what
35:23
Speaker 1: the sheriff has to say about this. Do you believe,
35:26
Speaker 1: Sheriff Chronister that Don Lewis's will was forged? Believe this
35:34
Speaker 1: will was forged? I don't. A couple of different reasons.
35:38
Speaker 1: One someone who said they witnessed at the time, at
35:41
Speaker 1: the time, the signatures recancerr story, and again I think
35:44
Speaker 1: the biggest part is the first time ever hearing that
35:48
Speaker 1: someone put a disappearance clause to make sure that they
35:51
Speaker 1: received the full benesit full benefits of an executed will. Guys,
35:56
Speaker 1: you're hearing what Chronister says if he thinks the will
35:59
Speaker 1: was forged. Now, what did you say, Joseph Fritz? As
36:02
Speaker 1: six hand running experts have said it was traced, I
36:05
Speaker 1: believe it's up to six And now I've heard a
36:08
Speaker 1: body language expert chime in too, with the pictures of her. Again,
36:14
Speaker 1: Chronister just made the same thing about the will of
36:18
Speaker 1: the will of the will. We're talking about the will.
36:20
Speaker 1: The will never got probated. It was never a thought.
36:22
Speaker 1: It never went to court because he died owing nothing,
36:25
Speaker 1: owning nothing, because everything had been transferred with the power
36:29
Speaker 1: of attorney. I don't care about the will. Okay, then
36:31
Speaker 1: let's talk about the power of attorney. How about that? Okay?
36:34
Speaker 1: So what do we do now, Fritz, What if anything
36:37
Speaker 1: can we do now? Well, the touch of limitations criminally
36:39
Speaker 1: has run. Civilly, it has run. They're both five years
36:44
Speaker 1: on written well, five years on a felony and five
36:49
Speaker 1: years on a civil suit to recover the money for
36:52
Speaker 1: the estate. The will of the will is obviously no good.
36:56
Speaker 1: I wouldn't probate it it. I wouldn't put it into
36:59
Speaker 1: probate court because everybody said it's for it. Okay, I
37:02
Speaker 1: believe it. What you have to do is plot on
37:06
Speaker 1: and get the murder indictment. Well, here's the thing, without
37:10
Speaker 1: a body, how is that going to happen? To Cheryl
37:12
Speaker 1: McCallin direct to Coal Case Research Institute, Well, mean to
37:15
Speaker 1: you and I both know there's some really extraordinary people
37:18
Speaker 1: that have had great success with nobody cases. What you're
37:21
Speaker 1: gonna do is you're gonna build this thing up as
37:24
Speaker 1: a murder investigation, and you're gonna combine every single piece
37:28
Speaker 1: of this puzzle. And I like the fact they have
37:32
Speaker 1: the will and the power of attorney, not how she
37:35
Speaker 1: might have used them, but to show when her mind,
37:38
Speaker 1: if his body's recovered, I've got the will if it's not,
37:40
Speaker 1: and I've got the power of attorney. Either way, it
37:42
Speaker 1: game owned for her. She covered her basis. So you
37:45
Speaker 1: look at like what you're doing and the evidence that
37:47
Speaker 1: you're bringing out. You've got people like Jerry Mitchell and
37:50
Speaker 1: ripper Jack and Nosey Wren. They're doing some incredible things online.
37:55
Speaker 1: Just like don't f with cats, honey, this is don't
37:58
Speaker 1: f with bigger cats. People are putting this thing together,
38:01
Speaker 1: and they're putting a ton of the piece of this
38:04
Speaker 1: puzzle right out in front of God's Country. A big,
38:07
Speaker 1: a big piece of this puzzle is Anne McQueen, who
38:10
Speaker 1: was Donald Lewis's executive assistant. I want you to take
38:13
Speaker 1: a listen to what she says on Netflix. I got
38:16
Speaker 1: a phone call stating that the office alarm had gone
38:19
Speaker 1: off and Carol was there. Her and Kenny Farr had
38:25
Speaker 1: cut the locks on the gate cut, the locks on
38:28
Speaker 1: the office cut, the power to the trailer, got the water,
38:33
Speaker 1: got the sewer. The cops come because the alarm went off,
38:36
Speaker 1: and McQueen come up because that was that's her office.
38:40
Speaker 1: You know what I mean, that's she's been here for years.
38:42
Speaker 1: There were two wheels, and there were two power attorneys
38:47
Speaker 1: in my office in a box underneath my desk. But
38:51
Speaker 1: whatever paperwork or whatever they needed, there was nothing that
38:56
Speaker 1: the cops could do the stopular wife thinking anything. The
39:01
Speaker 1: will and the power attorney, they were all taken out
39:04
Speaker 1: the office that day. I was an executor for both
39:08
Speaker 1: of their wills. I was the power of attorney for
39:11
Speaker 1: both of them. Who was the power of attorney on
39:14
Speaker 1: the new documents Carol produced? I mean so to Joseph Fritz,
39:18
Speaker 1: longtime friend and lawyer for Don Lewis, Carroll Baskin's missing husband,
39:24
Speaker 1: let me understand what McQueen is saying. This is Don Luis,
39:28
Speaker 1: this long time twenty plus years executive assistant, that she
39:33
Speaker 1: had been the executor on the power of attorney and
39:36
Speaker 1: the will. There were two copies of them in a
39:38
Speaker 1: box under her desk. She gets a call because the
39:42
Speaker 1: alarm went off goes to her office. This is after
39:45
Speaker 1: Lewis disappears. She gets to her office and there is
39:50
Speaker 1: Carol Baskin. The will and the power of attorney is gone,
39:57
Speaker 1: and now there's a new will and power of attorney.
40:00
Speaker 1: She and McQueen is no longer. The executor is now
40:02
Speaker 1: Carol Baskin. Do I have the chronology right? I'm sure
40:07
Speaker 1: you do. Dang, okay, leave my page. What else can
40:11
Speaker 1: you tell me about the investigation? Now? Well, Nancy, this
40:16
Speaker 1: investigation has been reopened. The sheriff says that he gets
40:19
Speaker 1: six tips a day about this case, all thanks to
40:24
Speaker 1: the Netflix series Tiger King, and the more that this
40:27
Speaker 1: case is in the public, the more tips he's going
40:30
Speaker 1: to get. This is not slowing down anytime soon. To you,
40:35
Speaker 1: Joseph Fritz, what do you think is going to take
40:37
Speaker 1: for a murder investigation and a murdered case to move forward.
40:41
Speaker 1: I've always said that somebody has to stub their toe
40:44
Speaker 1: legally and want to get out of jail free card
40:47
Speaker 1: and spill the beans on what exactly happened. And I've
40:52
Speaker 1: heard the sheriff say that, you know, all deals are
40:55
Speaker 1: on the table, So that's what I think is going
40:58
Speaker 1: to break the case. Who would in the position to
41:01
Speaker 1: know all that, Joseph, but know what to know any
41:05
Speaker 1: of the details that would be probitive in a murder
41:09
Speaker 1: case beside masking the sure if I said multiple people
41:12
Speaker 1: were involved, I believe. I believe as he does, and
41:15
Speaker 1: I believe that one did the murder, one conspired to
41:18
Speaker 1: do a murder. Your contract. Yet, as far as I'm concerned,
41:22
Speaker 1: there's all sorts of people around there that you know
41:26
Speaker 1: that have ever could have information. And to you, Tom Vastric,
41:31
Speaker 1: forensic document examiner, handwriting expert, do you have any doubt
41:36
Speaker 1: in your mind that that power of attorney and that
41:40
Speaker 1: will the signature of Don Lewis was traced. No, I
41:46
Speaker 1: don't have any doubt. I'm remind at all. And I'd
41:48
Speaker 1: also want to bring up something You've mentioned that one
41:52
Speaker 1: of the witnesses as free candid, and I want to
41:54
Speaker 1: remind you there's also a second witness and a notary.
41:58
Speaker 1: I would be interested in what they have to say.
42:01
Speaker 1: Oh brilliant, You're so right, Tom Vastrick. And could you
42:09
Speaker 1: tell me one more time? I mean, I'm just a JD.
42:12
Speaker 1: I'm not a handwriting expert. Why you're convinced that Lewis's
42:17
Speaker 1: signature was traced. It is far, far too similar with
42:23
Speaker 1: each other. Every every time you sign your name, there's
42:26
Speaker 1: a level of variation from one signature to the next,
42:29
Speaker 1: and these are just way, way too similar. I did
42:33
Speaker 1: not find this a difficult determination at all, So it
42:37
Speaker 1: was easy. Nothing's ever easy in arm our field, but
42:40
Speaker 1: it's not difficult. You know, you said something really interesting
42:44
Speaker 1: just then, you said that there's a slight derivation every
42:48
Speaker 1: time you sign your signature. Why do you what what derivation?
42:53
Speaker 1: What's different? Well, you're you're talking about the Gurler control
42:59
Speaker 1: of the human. You can you can't repeat that process
43:03
Speaker 1: of complication like that with exact, precise replication. So there's
43:08
Speaker 1: going to be that natural level of variation in virtually
43:12
Speaker 1: anything that a human does, and it shows itself in
43:15
Speaker 1: its handwriting through what we call natural variation. So when
43:18
Speaker 1: you get multiple signatures that have the level of similarity
43:23
Speaker 1: that you have here, it tells us that this is
43:27
Speaker 1: not normal natural writing. Something is a miss. Now if
43:31
Speaker 1: it was an exact replication, that would tell me what
43:33
Speaker 1: I'm dealing with. Its copies of the same signature, because
43:36
Speaker 1: that's the only way that can happen like with a
43:38
Speaker 1: rubber stamp, or are scanning it onto a computer and
43:43
Speaker 1: having it artificially placed onto a document. But when you
43:47
Speaker 1: get this level of consistency between multiple signatures but still
43:51
Speaker 1: just that little bit of differences one signature to another,
43:56
Speaker 1: that is a characteristic tracing and really nothing else. All right,
44:00
Speaker 1: Sheriff Cronister, it's in your court. I did that's a question.
44:04
Speaker 1: If I can't, yes, jump in. Yeah. The handwriting folks
44:08
Speaker 1: have have all reached the conclusion that they was traced.
44:12
Speaker 1: I want to know anybody actually isamine the originals rather
44:17
Speaker 1: than copies, because I hear a lot about indentation and
44:21
Speaker 1: pressure on the paper that you can't pick up from
44:24
Speaker 1: copies but you can from originals. Where's the originals who
44:27
Speaker 1: examined it? What about it? Astrick? I don't know who
44:30
Speaker 1: has the original? Well, Nancy less part of them at
44:33
Speaker 1: the real world. She gave his guns lay the original. Well,
44:39
Speaker 1: I can tell you this much. If the originals and
44:42
Speaker 1: the copies under Anne McQueen's desk disappeared, God only knows
44:48
Speaker 1: where this will really is, because in court you would
44:53
Speaker 1: probably need you know. That's the highest and best, which
44:56
Speaker 1: means the original We wait as just as unfalls Nancy
45:02
Speaker 1: Grace crime Story, signing off goodbye friend,