Latest / Mythmakers / 75th Anniversary of the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe - How Does It Read Today?

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75th Anniversary of the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe - How Does It Read Today? · Mythmakers

• 0:00
  Hello and welcome to MythBakers. MythBakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy
• 0:11
  creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding and I'm
• 0:17
  joined today by my frequent podcast partner and friend Jacob Renica and we're going to
• 0:24
  continue our conversation about CS Lewis by thinking about the Lion and the Witch and the
• 0:31
  Wardrobe as it celebrates its 75th anniversary, already 75 years old. So Jacob, how did you
• 0:42
  enter Narnia? Do you remember? I do because it was during grad school. I was not. Oh,
• 0:49
  life adopted. I was, yes, yes. So this was, so I'm like, so I'm unique in some ways and there
• 0:58
  was much later in life. So it wasn't a book that was read to me as a child. It wasn't an important
• 1:05
  part of the upbringing of either of my parents. And so it was actually my wife who introduced me to
• 1:15
  it and we read it out loud to each other on some car rides, long trips in the car. So yeah,
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  it was as a graduate, as an upper level graduate student at that when I came across it myself. So
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  was your introduction to Lion and the Witch and the Wardrobe in Narnia different for my?
• 1:41
  Very different. So I even have the edition which I'm holding up for the on the YouTube version.
• 1:46
  Here it is, familiar Pauline Baines, illustration on the front, published by Penguin Books for 40
• 1:56
  Pents. So this is like a 70s edition of it. I remember very vividly because I was about
• 2:06
  five or six and I lived in a suburban garden in the edge of London. And there was a fence
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  running down side by garden with a teenage girl next door called Geraldine who quite often
• 2:21
  babysat me and my brother and sister. And I got a memory of a hot day standing talking to her
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  through the fence. The fence had like trellis, like squared trellis so I could see her. I even
• 2:38
  remember the bush. There's a japonic a bush right by me which has these wonderful salmon pink
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  blossoms on. And she was telling me which I now recognise as the great elevator pitch. She told me
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  I've been reading this marvelous story about children who enter a magical world through a wardrobe
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  and it's got a lion in it and a witch. And it's a world where it's always winter and never Christmas.
• 3:07
  And I absolutely had to go and read that book. And it was a great draw to bring me through to
• 3:14
  actually the stage of reading chapter books to be able to read it. It is when you get there,
• 3:20
  it's a book which is delightfully simple and short for a child reader. But for an adult,
• 3:27
  it's delightfully deep and keeps giving it more and more to you. Every time you read it,
• 3:33
  you know, if you come back to read it to your own children or I've got it on an audible version.
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  So occasionally I find myself listening to it and I think, oh wow, you know, that bit there,
• 3:45
  that's so profound and that characterisation is so clever. So yeah, it's a hot garden being told
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  about this, you know, this wonderful world I could enter. I like the idea that she's standing
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  this other side of a fence. So it's already a sort of doorway between us.
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  Do you think it's best to read it yourself first or do you think it's a good idea to have the
• 4:12
  book read to you? I was listening to the podcast chaps, pints with Jack. And they were talking about
• 4:20
  this and the young men there, they're a bit younger than me. They've all got really painfully
• 4:25
  young children, sort of infants. And they're already reading the book to their child.
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  And I just thinking, oh no, I know you love this, but why don't you wait? Right. Because for me,
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  it was the book, which was my wonderful self discovery. I loved reading it.
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  And it's very different to me, the experience of quietly on your own, your little reading
• 4:55
  look, entry into, then to have it intervened by an adult. So for me, I'd prefer to wait for a child's
• 5:04
  encourage them to read it. Yeah. Did you do that? We did various things. My children were
• 5:12
  little when the film came out. So there was a mix and there were also different ages.
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  So would have been a mixture of things happening in the house. Did they see the movie for it?
• 5:24
  Did either of them see it? Some of them were, because of course it ends with age they all were,
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  some had it read to them, some of it made read it themselves. So there wasn't, I don't remember
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  all a simp on this, but looking back at it now, I suppose my own experience was magical. So I
• 5:40
  wanted that. Yeah. Right. What are you going to do? You've got a little kid.
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  I don't know. Yeah. So yeah. So I, and so this is trying to find the like the age-appropriate way
• 5:51
  to do this with with my child. So it's, yeah. So I like the benefits of discovering it myself,
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  as an adult, was it was, I think fortunate in some ways, this was a, in some ways, a real
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  renaissance for me in fantasy literature and children's fantasy literature. It had come,
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  right after, I believe it had come right after I had read for the first time I had discovered
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  a J.M. Barry's Peter Pan, which I never read. I've seen like a stage shows. I'd seen like a
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  wonderful, still like stage adaptation of that and really wanted to read the original and
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  fell in love with the original and then that kind of, so I was, I was already kind of primed
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  for looking at and appreciating children's literature. But it was also, so there was that aspect.
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  And then I was in my graduate degree, I was studying mythology. And so as I'm reading it,
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  as a mythologist, I may, I was, you know, picking up all everything that Lewis is doing
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  mythologically there. And so that was really not delightful in many ways that I, you know,
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  something I wouldn't have picked up on as a child. So by first reading of that was
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  seeing him playing with the very things that I was studying. And so that was, that was delightful
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  in a different sort of way for me. So for my child, so I appreciated it. I'm grateful for where
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  I encountered it myself. But selfish, and this is right with parenting, like how much of yourself
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  are you imposing on the child, how much you're letting them do for themselves. I just would not,
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  it's yeah, it's this, and there's no one right way, right? So if you have, if you have
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  multiple children, then you can like try it, you can experiment.
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  Like I was going to try it for this.
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  Right. I was going to say, yeah, just like, you can experiment on children, not even your own
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  sometimes. But so I think that, so I, so I introduced him to, there's a, there's a fantastic
• 8:03
  board book that I wish I would have brought with me. Joey Chu is the illustrator. It's a beautiful,
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  illustrated board book of Lion the Witch in the Wardrobe. Right. Very simple, wonderful images.
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  And it's, I, and so I've been, I started reading that to him.
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  I think he was probably two before he was three.
• 8:23
  Oh, you see, you're with the Plights of Jack, guys, yeah.
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  Well, but, but I'm not really like the whole thing. So what, but what we have, and so here's
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  where it's a different window with that. So it's not, so I'm not, I know with those guys,
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  and I've listened to that interview, that discussion there, as well, that they are kind of like
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  reading, dark, figuring it like, you know, five or so that you could actually read the
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  none of them have old to children. So I was listening to this thinking, you need to have
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  the discussion with somebody who's gone through the whole parent.
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  Through that. Right. Right. So like, for reading the actual, like, the, the full
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  unabridged Narnia, like, I definitely want to wait to do that. So we've seen that the full
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  richness of the world. So right now he has these images and these pictures about this like
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  general world. Um, and he, so he was so taken by that that we've started doing these,
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  what we call them, like, uh, imagination adventures, essentially role playing, like, uh, light role
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  playing, where I set up a situation and say, okay, so you are in this, you know, so this world,
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  you see this, um, fountain and the water drains out, and there's a stairs down it. What do you
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  want to do? And then, and then you opening it up until he, so finding different ways for him,
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  that we've done like three different ways. So each way he finds a new way into Narnia. Uh,
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  and then I'll give him a situation and he says what he wants to do. I'm just kind of like,
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  follow that around. And so, imaginatively for him, just the, the concept of Narnia, um,
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  and the talking creatures and the threat of a white witch, um, uh, is, is something that he
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  is captured by and likes engaging with and thinking about. Um, so that's all what I've done. So I,
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  instead of just trying to drop him in the deep end of reading him the actual book right now,
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  I'm kind of talking about ideas, in part, in part of his selfish because I want to talk with him
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  about it and I want him. Yeah, yeah. On the other hand, I get, I totally get what you're saying about,
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  discovering it for the first time as a child and just like having that whole imaginative world
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  open up, uh, inside of you, I, I want him to have that kind of experience somehow,
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  somewhere. So, yeah, I don't know, I can say which way is better. I guess there is
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  a lot of many doorways in to Narnia. So, you know, yes, but I would say there's, uh, just as a
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  parenting tip is don't rush your fences with your kids, um, because they may not be ready to
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  understand why it's good. If you do, right. If it becomes something they always have around them,
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  then it's, it's, that is what literature is about, whereas there is a moment when you're ready.
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  Anyway, let's, let's talk. So we'll agree that there are different approaches and I'm being a bit,
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  there's different approaches. I think the book stands, I think it's, it's good enough like the image
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  at least, at least like, so coming from like the board book version all the way to the published
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  version, it's rich enough to like the images and just ideas, Jim broad ideas that can be distilled
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  into the picture book form are, are good and, and like, great for, for anybody. So like the story
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  itself, the heart of the story, um, is, is attractive and generative imaginatively for
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  children all the way up through, uh, hardened adults who are sleep deprived and working on a graduate
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  degree. So like, all of that. And I'm sure even older adults who are in a nursing home and
• 11:48
  reading it for the first time that they would have a different experience with that. And I think that
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  the heart of that would even be engaging and entertaining for even somebody in the later stages of
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  life as well. Yeah, I mean, I suppose what I'm thinking about is that the, um, the absolute pivotal
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  moment in the book is when Lucy goes to the back of the wardrobe and it keeps going and she steps
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  into another world, which is the experience of reading. So I suppose that's what I, um,
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  arguing is a really good thing to be preserved. But on the other hand, the actual style of it is a,
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  um, there is a presence of a narrator who is, who is like a nursery time bedtime story narrator
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  who says things like, I'm not going to tell you this because, you know, it would be, um,
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  if you've ever felt this way before you'll know, you know, that he steps in, that voice steps in.
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  So it does lend itself to a voice someone reading it aloud. So you could argue it the other way.
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  Anyway, let's talk about now how the book came to be written. C.S. Lewis says that it began with a
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  picture and the picture is of a form carrying parcels in a snowy wood, which he had as a picture when
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  he was a teenager and it took him a while to get to the point where he was ready to read it to write it.
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  He also, in his real life, he had, um, the experience of having evacuated children at the
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  kilns. So the children who were there fed into the children who, uh, are the evacuees in the story,
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  plus the book is dedicated to Lucy Barfield, his goddaughter, so there may be an element of wanting to
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  write something as a gift for a young person that he knows, all those things. So you can see
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  why he might have got round to writing it in the fifties with those elements, but there's also
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  something else going on, isn't there? That's causing him to write this. That's a sort of superficial
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  level of reasons. And I think it follows on from his work, uh, as an apologist.
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  So he's thinking, what you were saying, the supposed supposed there is a land of talking animals,
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  what, how were Jesus intervening in it? So I think it's fascinating that he has these
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  different sources coming in as a reason for the spark to setting it off. But there is a moment
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  when all of that has to be put to one side, and you just become the storyteller. So it all has
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  to blend. And I think he has a very deft touch and a very strong understanding of how stories work,
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  all of his stories, particularly this one. Yeah, I agree. No, absolutely agree. And I think,
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  and there's, there's evidence that suggests that perhaps he'd thought of writing a story for
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  children 10 years or so earlier, but never that nothing came of it, um, ultimately or nothing
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  that he was happy with worth sharing. But there's, but you're right, I think there's this, this,
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  this kind of, um, melding of different things, the story, the, the stew of story, the soup that
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  Tolkien talks about, all the different ideas and things kind of get thrown into the, into the pot,
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  and simmer have to simmer and congeal, um, and mix together. So yeah, I think that that's,
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  yeah, all of those different things. And, and for him, uh, Lewis coming out of having spent
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  during the wartime years doing a radio, uh, addresses kind of Christian apologetic radio addresses for,
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  um, uh, for the UK. And, uh, he was, you know, really before, before that point, or up to that point,
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  it was a public figure, uh, kind of social critic, uh, who is recognized for making these, you know,
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  in some ways like devastating arguments, some people might see them as like in favor of Christianity
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  against whatever they feel or felt at that time was, was, was, uh, fighting against Christianity.
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  Um, but, but he has this persona, uh, right, of, of like a public apology, just kind of like formal
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  apologist. Um, and that's, I think it's a public figure in that sense. And so this allows him,
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  so what he can't do in that, so this, this, in, in a lot of ways by having those images that he
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  had from earlier in life, just like images of thawn in the snow with a parcel, uh, in a lamppost or
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  a umbrella, looking at like a lamppost from somewhere, um, if that was, you know, something that's
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  different, different images, and then the, the image of the lion, something that is that he says
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  was something that like pulled the stories together was like that image. Um, but clearly he's
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  drawing from his work in Christian apology and his love of reading myths as a child himself
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  and as an adult, um, and his academic work, um, uh, in literature. Uh, so he's, he's, he's,
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  to all these things are simmering and something pulls them together and he kind of, in, in, in,
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  as he's analyzing that, he says that really it was, it was Asland that kind of
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  gave an impetus to this and like kind of draw everything together and all of the stories, um,
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  with this, or at least in retrospect, there was a, that spark or like the, the catalyst that kind of
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  lit everything that was already down fire, he said was, um, was Asland in one instance, he said that.
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  So, I think the questions, he also says different versions, right? Don't believe authors when
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  they tell you why they wrote something, right? They don't know. Um, yeah, he also says that,
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  so I, I was just like, I think it'd be quite good in at this 75th anniversary to think about
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  what he's doing as a children's book. So let's think about what came before. So we mentioned
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  Inez Bitt when we were talking about the magician's nephew in the last episode, um, as a, as a source
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  for his ideas, certainly the time travel, the nature of time travel is very much Inez Bitt
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  concept, he's borrowed plus the portal fantasy, that's definitely in there and got older roots as well.
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  But what I think is very different is the way he characterizes his children. By and large,
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  children in that sort of Edwardian high point of literature, they seem younger, they stay pretty
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  much the same in their adventures and things happen to them. So like part of Poops Hill, stories
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  happen to the children, um, five children and it's the children don't seem to really mature in
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  any way. They feel still part of the nursery, even in Peter Pan. Um, you know, there's problematic,
• 19:08
  particularly Wendy, uh, characterisation of her, but making her is a little mother issue,
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  issue, but when you look at Lewis's children, they really do step up and become each of them
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  quite well-defined and of course the book goes into their adult life as well briefly.
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  So there, I think the children have much more agency and the more it, more is asked of them and
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  more is expected of them. Um, now having said that, I did just read a book called Wet Magic
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  by Inesbit, which is one of her less-known books, where the children are involved in a war,
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  um, which actually fighting a war, which is a little bit closer to this. I don't know if
• 19:56
  under this knew that. So the children remind me more of the kind of no-stretfield type characters,
• 20:02
  like ballet shoes. I don't know, that obviously are the most famous perbooks,
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  where the children have much more rounded, fuller characters and you can actually imagine them
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  outside the tale. Uh, so they're, they're, they're not just ciphers for a tale, they're,
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  they grow and develop, particularly, you know, Edmund for example. Um, so I think it's,
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  he's bringing the story on, but let's look at how it now feels 75 years later. What do you,
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  what do you make of the children now looking at them with a modern mindset? What would a
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  modern child make of them? Are they still relatable? Or do they feel like historic figures?
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  Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah. Um, they're, they're definitely distinctive. That's one
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  things I appreciate about Lewis is giving very distinctive personalities. I think to,
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  to the differential, you can distinguish them by what they're noticing, what they're talking
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  about, what they're focusing on, how they respond to different things. And so they're,
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  they're easy to follow as distinctive personality types, which is, which is, which is great. Um,
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  but I think in just, uh, revisiting it, um, thinking about just, uh, not just like so Peter,
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  his personality of the older older older brother, yes, there are still older brothers that are very
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  protective, uh, and kind of authoritative or that like that essentially are the authority figures
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  for a group of children. So I was, I'm, I'm the oldest of four children. And so like, I recognize
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  Peter and how he's acting in ways that I have acted also seeing, um, you know, and how Edward,
• 21:47
  uh, or sorry, Edmund, uh, is, uh, is, is responding to the other, uh, you know, his sibling. So
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  there's always that's true that you have an older sibling when he says when Lewis says that, uh, Edmund
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  was talking to Lucy like he was, you know, was much older acting as if he was much older than her,
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  even though he was only a year older than her. This is a fun, you know, narrative, uh, narrator
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  aside, uh, there's that, that dynamic is still alive and well with an older sibling kind of
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  wanting to seem superior because they're older, uh, for, and, and to just get a rise out of the
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  child when it says, you know, that, that Edmund did this, he did something and then the narrator says,
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  and this is the most terrible thing that happens in this book. And it's that he, in retrospect,
• 22:35
  I would think that, you know, the murdering and innocent creature, um, might be up there with some
• 22:41
  of the worst things that happen in the book, but for him, for the narrator, he's saying how the
• 22:44
  worst things is the key lied and like, he betrays his sister. He betrays his sister like that's
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  what the worst thing is. And for a child, betrayal like absolutely, right? That's seeing
• 22:54
  somebody that you love and care about. So I think that the, I think that there's, that there's
• 22:58
  emotional truth there and how the children are depicted and how they interact with each other
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  that holds up regardless of the time period. Yeah, and I think the thing that now seems of
• 23:08
  its period, and it would be something I would discuss with the child if they're reading it,
• 23:12
  is obviously the gender gendered expense. So if you're, you know, the Greta Goig is making a film
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  of this eventually, I think, you know, Lucy and Susan are sort of non-competent, really, though
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  um, Susan is given a bone arrow and Lucy a dagger. I think you'd have to make Susan into a bit
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  more of a legulus, you know, lean into it. We know that she's a good and it's celebrated in Prince
• 23:41
  Caspian that she's a very good archer. So I think you'd actually build up the role that actually
• 23:46
  having a bone arrow is perfectly, you know, probably good, good option. And Susan and Lucy is the
• 23:53
  medical call. All of that's fine. But the way it's written is, you know, Aslan's telling them
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  that, you know, the girls don't fight kind of thing basically. Um, I think that feels of its time
• 24:05
  and is absolutely understandable why C. S. Lewis is writing that, but as a mother of daughters and
• 24:15
  sons, uh, I would, I had that conversation, uh, that, you know, it's, it's of its time. So that,
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  so it's quite as it is, but you'd probably change it if you were dramatising it now. As,
• 24:28
  as happened a bit in the, um, the 2005 film, to be honest, they went, the children, the girls were
• 24:34
  quite active in that. What do you think about the Michael Ward thesis about the book? So basically
• 24:42
  in Planet Narnia, Michael Ward believes and makes the case that the Narnia books, seven of them,
• 24:52
  are each of them connected to a planet. This is the medieval mindset that C. S. Lewis had.
• 25:00
  And the line, the Witch and the Wardrobe is Joe's book, Happiness Return of Spring, the Lion,
• 25:07
  the warmth, the celebration, the laughter. Um, do you think that holds water when you look at
• 25:17
  this particular book? Yeah, I know. So yeah, so, um, Ward's argument, all right, he's,
• 25:28
  he's arguing that this isn't right, this isn't explicit. He's essentially saying that he's
• 25:34
  discovered this, um, but that Lewis is doing it intentionally, but intentionally secret,
• 25:44
  secretively. Yeah. Um, and that he never admitted this. And so that's hard to make a definitive
• 25:52
  argument to the wind figure, when your argument is that this is something that this person can't
• 25:57
  talk about. Otherwise, they would ruin the effect of this secret, uh, intent that they have for it.
• 26:03
  So that's just logically, it's kind of tricky, um, a tricky argument to build. That being said,
• 26:10
  it's the arguments like when he, when Ward kind of, what he says was the impetus for him,
• 26:16
  even looking into this was reading a poem that Lewis wrote on the planets. And when it's talking
• 26:22
  about Jupiter, there's this line, um, where it's describing the medieval, like, like he said,
• 26:28
  Julia, the kind of medieval conception of, and in the medieval imagination, how it understood
• 26:36
  the planet of Jupiter, which was not just like a heavenly body, but had earthly correspondences,
• 26:42
  right? So as, as above so below that the heavens, um, had some sort of influence on, uh, on our world.
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  And so, um, an age or a time period being under the influence of one of these different planets,
• 26:56
  means like so for Mars, uh, was a, you know, air is the war planet. And so this was, if there was
• 27:01
  like war or conflict happening, that that could be because of this planet due to that, that planet's
• 27:06
  influence on the world. Um, well, we have seen it. Um, and so there's this poem. So Lewis has this
• 27:10
  wonderful poem where he's exploring this, um, uh, this medieval view of the planets and, uh, and
• 27:17
  with, you know, goes individually by planet talking about what they represent. And the line that
• 27:24
  board says, that kind of triggered him was this line that says, of winters and and sins forgiven,
• 27:30
  um, as being part of like you said, the Jupiter bringing spring, um, but also the sins forgiven.
• 27:36
  So that line, which is that it's spring and, and since forgiven for word, that was clearly like,
• 27:41
  oh, Narnia, right? The always winter never Christmas and, uh, Edmund sin, uh, and being forgiven,
• 27:49
  of that. And so then he starts teasing that out and going into that and then noticing correspondences
• 27:55
  between every single one of the books. So his argument is that each book is intentionally
• 27:59
  evoking this kind of imaginative spirit, this medieval imaginative way of looking at the planets
• 28:06
  and what those ideas represent. And Lewis himself does say that he still finds those
• 28:11
  medieval ideas, a generative and useful, um, for himself, um, even just like personally. Um,
• 28:19
  and so, so that's, I think there's an argument we said that he teched those things seriously, uh,
• 28:23
  and that he had that in the stew, definitely in that pot. We're talking about that, the, the,
• 28:30
  the pot of story, the soup of story, uh, that that is a significant part that's there for Lewis,
• 28:36
  um, that is he drawing on it intentionally to represent Jupiter. Ward makes, I think, a decent,
• 28:43
  like, argument that there are lots of things that show up in the book that do agree with that,
• 28:48
  um, but not, again, not a slaveish kind of one to one. Here's everything that Jupiter represents.
• 28:54
  And you can see every single one of those here, because there are some things that that don't
• 28:58
  completely line up with that, with, uh, with, with that list. Um, and then Ward would say,
• 29:04
  and then someone, and it seems like he'd been in, in, uh, planet Narnia and that version of,
• 29:08
  uh, of his argument, uh, that that's almost part of the point is that there are things that don't
• 29:13
  belong in there because it's not supposed, it's supposed to just evoke the spirit and the feeling
• 29:18
  of that. So, uh, yeah, so I think I, I think it's, it's definitely an influence. It's one of the things
• 29:25
  that Lewis had knocking around in his capacious mind and imagination, um, whether or not it was
• 29:32
  an organizing principle for the book. It's tough. It's, it's, it's difficult. It's difficult to say.
• 29:38
  I don't know. What's your, what's your take on, on that, on, on that, on, on, uh, line, which
• 29:43
  in the wardrobe specifically? Yeah. I think the issue is, as you say, you're, we'll never prove it
• 29:49
  one way or the other. Um, so what is the use of that argument to our reading pleasure?
• 29:55
  And I think what it does do is it provides a, a way of tying the seven books together
• 30:05
  and also suggests, because in a way, Lewis starts with the big, biggest, he starts with the one
• 30:11
  which has a resurrection in. So you give that, so the idea of identifying it with Jupiter,
• 30:17
  Joe, the biggest of the planets is, is pleasing. And it also explains the sharp tonal,
• 30:24
  or helps explain the sharp tonal twists that you get in the different books. So for me, it's
• 30:32
  a lens which brings out more reading pleasure, uh, having come back to, you know, I've read these
• 30:37
  many times. And so you think, ah, this is a new lens I can use to look at these books.
• 30:43
  I absolutely, doesn't matter to a child coming to these books for the first time. I think it's
• 30:48
  a distraction to try and say, you know, to junior. Oh, by the way, you know, Lewis has been really clever here.
• 30:54
  Um, I think it's a really pleasant thesis, which I'm happy to have running alongside reading it.
• 31:04
  Um, but who knows? He could have unintentionally done it. I don't know.
• 31:10
  It's, it's planned. I'm, you know, Michael's, Michael's argument is
• 31:17
  persuasive, but not conclusive. Right. You know, yeah. Um, so it's a, I mentioned at the beginning,
• 31:24
  this is a book that deepens as we get older, as you go further up and further in in it.
• 31:30
  But during its lifetime, it's had a number of treatments and adaptations. Um, I'm thinking,
• 31:36
  so the three that I'm thinking of is there was a BBC like tea time drama that was in, I think,
• 31:44
  possibly the early eighties. Um, then there was the 2005 film, um, which most people I think
• 31:53
  will have seen by now. And then, of course, there's been a wonderful stage adaptation,
• 31:59
  which I don't know if you've seen that. I've seen it. Have you seen it? I've seen it. So it's become
• 32:05
  like a local repertoire. You can do it in a local theatre context. They did an excellent version
• 32:09
  in our church where they built a similar lion. And the way the lion is done is if you've seen
• 32:16
  warhorse, they do it. Okay. Yeah. They use that same puppetry idea, which is very impressive,
• 32:23
  because if you're on stage, you have to have something that suggests, rather than is.
• 32:29
  Um, because you know, trying to do an animatronic lion would just be pathetic. So a puppet with
• 32:36
  people manipulating it and you should get big size, very impressive. I loved it. I thought it was
• 32:42
  a really good. And doing it in the church, particularly that transformation from the snowy scene
• 32:50
  into a spring with a large cast of children. And it was just great. Really, really good. Um,
• 32:57
  and that was an echo of the version which they're doing on London stage. So I think that's a very,
• 33:03
  I've already given you my opinion on that. That's a really good adaptation. So have you seen
• 33:09
  the any of the BBC program? Those ones? Because these ones I grew up with. Yeah, I didn't. I remember,
• 33:16
  I remember seeing on my black and white TV when I was very young. I think it was on PBS,
• 33:24
  the public broadcasting system. And yeah, so they did. But, but being too and
• 33:29
  like, understand like jumping in and not quite understanding what was happening. And
• 33:34
  for its day, it was very good. Really was good. Um, yeah. So let's talk about the 2005
• 33:43
  version. I've think I've got the year right there. Anyway, you know where I mean,
• 33:47
  that was filmed in New Zealand. Um, did you like that?
• 33:52
  I did. I did. I liked it. Yeah, I really liked it time. So I guess, yeah. So I guess my,
• 33:56
  I guess I have to take back what I said earlier in that my, you know, my exposure to line
• 34:01
  to which the wardrobe, my introduction to that. I guess I did. I did see the film
• 34:07
  after it came out. So that was the first time. So it was a film film first, um, then to the book
• 34:13
  itself. But I did. Yeah, I enjoyed it. Uh, at the time, uh, there wasn't anything that
• 34:20
  that was really nagging at me just as a, as a general adventure story with production value
• 34:27
  and like entertainment, uh, excitement. Um, I kind of was already aware of the general idea of
• 34:33
  the story. Um, but, uh, but the film, yeah, I, I liked it enough that Liam Neeson was a great
• 34:39
  voice. Yeah, good voice. Yeah, I was debating with my son today about who would they get to do the
• 34:46
  new one. Yeah, well, so here's, so there was the rumor that Merrill Street would have been
• 34:53
  approached to do the voice. And that's a completely different conversation. Who knows if that's
• 34:58
  the thing, but yeah, but who like a, like a James Earl Jones, like what, so talking about lions,
• 35:03
  but so the Lion King, the Disney, uh, Lion King, you can't use him though, you know, you can't use
• 35:07
  him unfortunately, but it's just like that type of voice, this James Earl Jones, it was a
• 35:11
  Rachel resident voice. Um, I'd be very interested to see, yeah, what, what now for, uh, audiences,
• 35:19
  what's suggesting? Because the type of voice that you have has implications and suggestions for
• 35:24
  what kind of creature this is, their personality. And I thought Liam Neeson did a good, you know,
• 35:30
  kind of like a gentle, he could be gentle, but also firm, um, uh, and kind of a stately, um,
• 35:37
  authoritative, uh, kind of tamber to his, uh, to his voice. So it depends on how you, how you see
• 35:44
  Aslan and I guess in this instance, he's, he's both that right, he's, he can be fierce, right,
• 35:49
  he's not, he's, he's not a team lion. Uh, so you have to get something of that in there,
• 35:56
  it can't just be like a gentle, I can't be a, I'm really hoping they don't do Meryl Streep,
• 36:00
  who is a fabulous actress, but he's a lion. And why not give a really good guy the gig because
• 36:10
  she can play any number of other parts brilliantly, but it would just would be so confusing
• 36:18
  if they say, oh, it's a lioness or she's pretending to be, I don't know, I just,
• 36:26
  I don't know either. Yeah. Or like a composite something, yeah, if they get, yeah, I don't,
• 36:30
  I don't know, I don't know, whatever you do. But yeah, but in terms of like the 2005, the film,
• 36:33
  Liam Neeson, I thought I did a great, like his, the great, uh, voice work. He also did,
• 36:37
  speaking about the children's literature, about that children, uh, grown up literature,
• 36:42
  referencing our previous conversation about the magician's left nephew,
• 36:45
  Liam Neeson is the voice of, um, of the monster and a monster calls the film adaptation.
• 36:50
  Oh, yeah. Um, so he and then did a wonderful job, uh, doing that. So there's something about
• 36:54
  Liam Neeson's voice, uh, and creatures, other, otherworldly creatures that have, uh,
• 37:01
  a powerful impact on children, uh, that I think is, it's worth noting.
• 37:06
  Yeah, that, I, that's one, that's one interpretation of Aslan, I'm not going with, I, I don't think,
• 37:13
  so I really have to do that. Anyway, we'll find out. Um, okay. So, well done,
• 37:19
  on which the wall drive at 75, you're still, well, I, I, I, I, I remember there's two,
• 37:24
  there's two other adaptations that are, that are like off, that are like a one off adaptation.
• 37:30
  So there's, there's, so there's the, I mentioned earlier that there's the, like,
• 37:32
  boardbook adaptation, like, there's that, there's at least, there's,
• 37:37
  I want to say at least three different picture book adaptations that have been done, um, of it,
• 37:42
  um, one was like a multi-volume picture book, uh, it's like four, they are. So it's a series of four
• 37:48
  that take different, can't chop it up there. There's one that we have that has that's the,
• 37:52
  the full book, uh, we're not the, well, the, the full story, um, but still it's, uh,
• 37:59
  third, less than 30 pages, probably 24 pages, but with, uh, more, with, with a decent amount of text,
• 38:03
  um, but there's also, there's, um, a choose your own adventure, uh, series of books, uh, that's set in
• 38:11
  Narnia taking those things, which is the wardrobe, um, uh, and then so you're kind of making
• 38:16
  decisions and, and, and choosing, uh, your path, I can't, I can't really call it a choose your
• 38:21
  path, but it wasn't because choose your own adventure was a, was a, was a, um, incorporated IP, um,
• 38:26
  but yeah, so there's this, this series of those books, um, that kind of take line to which the
• 38:30
  wardrobe is your starting point and your kind of, um, an adventure there, but there's also, uh,
• 38:35
  an official role-playing game book, um, that is only in German. It was, it was, it was, it was
• 38:41
  sanctioned, uh, there's this German volume. So I, I have a copy of it, and one of the reasons, uh,
• 38:49
  that I'm, uh, learning German, in, in addition to, uh, doing that because of my, my, uh, company
• 38:56
  that I work for is, uh, headquartered in Germany, um, but part of learning German, the, the joy
• 39:01
  and trying to do this is, is teasing out this role-playing game, is this, this deeply thought out that's
• 39:05
  taking line to which and wardrobe in the world that Lewis is creating there, and extrapolating,
• 39:09
  creating kind of rules like this, uh, clearly defined sandbox that then individuals can go in,
• 39:14
  people can go in and have adventures picking, you know, functioning with these different types of
• 39:19
  creatures, what are the different types of items that you have magical items? How do they function
• 39:23
  and how can you have like an actual structured game collaborative cooperative game, uh, set in the
• 39:28
  world of Narnia? So there, there are a few non like direct adaptations, but taking not like Narnia
• 39:36
  and Blaine, that was short for specifically and kind of teasing out in a broader imaginative world,
• 39:42
  um, so that's part of the legacy looking back at 75 years, that it, it, it hasn't just been the
• 39:46
  story of the story has, has inspired, um, people to play or people that want to engage more in this world,
• 39:54
  um, and that's similarly to board of the rings, we're not about to turn this into a Lord of the
• 39:59
  Rings conversation, but, uh, for, uh, Dungeons and Dragons, the development of that is role-playing
• 40:04
  game, uh, Lou, uh, so, uh, Tolkien's, uh, middle earth and all the work that he did was foundational to
• 40:11
  this and people wanting to enter into a fantasy world, like, oh, I wish I could live in this world,
• 40:16
  like, well, okay, so what, what, how can you actually do that as a sustainable game environment,
• 40:22
  that people are coming together and beyond just, you know, actually having a meaningful
• 40:27
  storyline where people are making decisions that are impactful, um, Lord of the Rings was
• 40:31
  significant for the development of the, the genre of role-playing games, uh, in general. So,
• 40:38
  there's something about things that Lou has, uh, was doing that, uh, that, uh, that is sparking
• 40:42
  people's imaginations and wanting to have them live in that world and do things on their own
• 40:48
  and just experience it that themselves. So that's one of the, I think, one of the lasting
• 40:52
  legacies of that book is people wanting to live inside of it, it's kind of an excellent book,
• 40:56
  and people going to the, the lengths of developing game-playing systems where you could actually do
• 41:02
  that in some, you know, limited, uh, limited way, but that's that's something that's an additional
• 41:07
  aspect for me that perhaps I'm working in the, the game's industry itself is kind of, I'm a little
• 41:12
  bit more sensitive to an appreciative of, uh, people wanting to, to engage with, with the text in,
• 41:18
  in a different way. Thank you. Um, so we'll wind up our conversation there, um, it's also just as
• 41:26
  we're talking about 75 years, um, we are, CS Lewis will come out of copyright in a few years time,
• 41:35
  um, so you can expect a whole slew of material in the early 2030s because that's when, um,
• 41:43
  the copyright lapses on him. So there will probably be a lot of
• 41:48
  new material from the estate up to there and to try and keep it going. So that's also another
• 41:54
  piece of this puzzle to watch. Do you have any fantasy news or recommendations that you wanted to,
• 42:01
  mention at this point? Um, let's see, I, so imagine to world's things that just like
• 42:10
  general fantasy, seeing how quickly fantasy ideas catch on among children. Um, I don't know,
• 42:18
  this would be interesting here for the UK, um, K-pop demon hunters. Oh, yeah. So that's big,
• 42:23
  big, big, big news. Has that, has that become, or from what you've noticed in children,
• 42:29
  you know, he made myself sit down and watch it the other day because it's been so big. Okay,
• 42:34
  okay, so it is likewise over there. Okay. Yeah. So that's, so that's something that the interest,
• 42:38
  the phenomenon in terms of like storytelling, hitting, uh, audiences, uh, fascinating
• 42:45
  experiment in the popular, popular imagination of what sort of things catch on, uh, and, and trying
• 42:52
  to understand why exactly they do. So that's, yeah, I, I would be interested to hear. So you made,
• 42:59
  so you said you made yourself sit down and so I'm going to get, if I was a get, if I was a bedding,
• 43:03
  if I was a bedding person, I would bet that you're viewing and, uh, experience wasn't
• 43:08
  perhaps what you're hoping for, or what you, um, I'm not the intended audience. I found it
• 43:16
  similar to the experience of taking my daughter and her, her, her very birthday parties to watch
• 43:21
  the twilight films. Okay. If you watch this as an adult, there's an entirely different level
• 43:27
  that you're aware of. So I'm looking at the K-pop thing, thinking this is actually a massive satire
• 43:35
  on the boy bands and girl band bands of Korean pop and the awful things I put through.
• 43:42
  I remember sitting laughing at different points in the twilight films because things which I
• 43:48
  found ridiculous that went over the heads of the intended audience because they're not, yeah,
• 43:54
  and I found that the same with, um, uh, demon hunters. The music sounded,
• 44:04
  I don't know if it is AI generated, but it felt like the most sort of generic sort of thing you
• 44:10
  could possibly do. I'm very auto tuned. So it's a very polished, very effective storytelling,
• 44:18
  fairly predictable story. Interesting to see an idea of how you would characterise evil demons
• 44:30
  in a different culture that's not the sort of Western canon and the behavior of the girls with the
• 44:36
  way they eat is a particular thing I've seen in, um, sort of stuffing the face thing which is
• 44:42
  obviously a sort of positive. I found it just weird. I'm the wrong person though because they
• 44:51
  don't need me as to watch it because lots of little girls are loving it and taking it all very
• 44:59
  seriously. I'm sure. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a finished story. Yeah. So it seemed like
• 45:03
  still going to a park and seeing, uh, yeah, girls that are choreographing their own dance. Yeah,
• 45:07
  especially. That's what it's about. I don't know how many people, how many kids that I've, uh,
• 45:12
  you know, talked with, they've told me who, that they're going to be one of these characters for
• 45:17
  for Halloween and that. So it's great. Yeah. So, so it's, it's, it's, it is really fascinating,
• 45:22
  interesting and encouraging, right? In, in, in some ways, to see that these ideas, these
• 45:27
  imaginative ideas can catch on to kids like wanting to do something, right? That it's sparking
• 45:31
  their imaginations and that they're getting excited about a world and imaginative world and, uh,
• 45:37
  wanting to kind of like participate in that. So I think that that's, um, that that's promising
• 45:42
  for the future, right? That that that there are audiences who are responsive to stories, uh,
• 45:49
  that can be inspiring, um, and triumphant in some ways. So it's been, it's been fun. Yeah. So I was,
• 45:55
  it was, I thought I thought it was, it was entertaining for, for, for what it was in first
• 45:59
  purposes, it was, it was entertaining. The animation is incredible. Yeah. I mean, all of that. I agree.
• 46:04
  Animation storytelling, all that. Yeah. So that's just, so that's, so in terms of like fanciates,
• 46:09
  that's fantasy news. That's as, as much as it's been. Yeah. It's, it's probably the biggest,
• 46:15
  biggest fun for me. Um, but I know that you, Julie, have been working on, uh, you have all sorts
• 46:19
  of irons in the fire and you have, um, yeah. Something in particular. Yeah. My pick of this,
• 46:26
  of November, um, 2025 is, uh, I've got a, a book coming out called Wardrobe and Rings, which is,
• 46:33
  a series of readings aimed at the length period. So, but you can read it any time of
• 46:39
  a year. It's 40, 40 days. Uh, it's written with Malcolm Geight, who many people will know as the
• 46:45
  sort of cross between a Hobbit and Gandalf, wonderful poet and critic and it doesn't, you know,
• 46:54
  Pikesmoker. Uh, and Simon Horobin, who holds CS Lewis's position at Mordeling College,
• 47:00
  Oxford. So, uh, editorial meetings for doing this were held in the new building, which is where
• 47:06
  the inkling is met with the same view, which I loved. Uh, I'm very proud of this book. And if
• 47:11
  you are at all interested in doing any sort of readings during Lent, I think, um, it might be up
• 47:18
  your street, shall we say? Okay. Um, where's that sort of folks wanted to get a hold of that?
• 47:23
  What are the best? Yeah, you can pre-order it at the moment, depending when you're listening to
• 47:27
  this. Um, so if you just put Wardrobe and Rings into whatever you're, you know, and put my name
• 47:34
  in Julia Golding, because I'm alphabetically the first person on the list. Um, you should come up.
• 47:39
  It's on Amazon, um, but also support your local bookshop. In the UK, there's a very good Christian
• 47:45
  bookseller called Eden. So, if you look at Eden, um, you can get it on that. I'm not sure what the
• 47:49
  equivalent is in the state. Um, but, yeah, please do, um, try that. I think it is a really fun way
• 47:57
  to approach Easter. I loved it. I'm very interested. You know, Lionel Witchroom Wardrobe gets a big
• 48:04
  big treatment in Holy Week, so, uh, it's, which Falcon does. So, um, that's really fun. Yeah.
• 48:11
  Thank you so much, uh, Jacob, and it's been great fun spending so much time in Narnia,
• 48:16
  so thank you very much. Yeah, thank you Julia.
• 48:25
  Thanks for listening to MythMakers Podcast.
• 48:29
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• 48:35
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