Latest / PGgrowth - Planned Giving podcast / NO 107: Grant Monck and the Role of Expert Mentors

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NO 107: Grant Monck and the Role of Expert Mentors · PGgrowth - Planned Giving podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: The PG Growth Podcast.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for joining me on the PG Growth Plan Giving Podcast.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Ed Sluga.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Today I have a great discussion with Grant Monk.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: This is in keeping with a lot of the recent podcasts that we have been publishing around the pain points essentially of plan giving programs that are constructed poorly.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I take this back to some of the advice and some of the approaches that we are provided in the sector from various individuals doing their best, but really who don't understand the full scope of what a plan giving program is.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's for a lot of reasons, which I talk about both academically and professionally, can go back to previous episodes to listen for that.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: What this conversation is about is Grant's role currently as an expert and mentor into the sector.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: But he and I both talk about the fact that we were very lucky in the 30 plus years.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: And what I started saying in the podcast was this is the we're part of the 30 plus crowd.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: 30 plus years in the business.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: We both started working directly with individuals who were seen as the authors of the fundamental way that people put together plan giving programs.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: So we're coming at this from some structural um history and that essentially established foundations.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, one of the things about plan giving, and Grant and I talk about this, is that over those 30 years, it really hasn't changed very much.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: There hasn't been a huge leap forward.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: There may be one coming.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: And even with the new uh interesting um vehicles that are out there uh and some of the use of technology, the basics have not changed.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Now, is that um is that due to a lack of imagination or the inability of professionals to apply some of that new uh opportunity out there from the social media side or digital side or AI side?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that's something we're gonna talk about later on in this series of pods.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: But right now, the reality is here we are, right now, things have not changed.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it does not look like they're going to change.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: So this conversation is about yes, uh, two senior professionals, Grant and I, talking about the fact that we really benefited from this expert mentor that we had, not just a mentor, because those are two different things.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: We were lucky to have expert mentors who really showed us the way forward.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then how how does this affect the way we engage with with uh clients?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: And one last thing I'll say about this is I've been really, really lucky both in PG Growth and before to work with people who really care about this kind of fundraising and care about the charitable sector as well and its role in the broader uh society of Canada.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so um you can hear that I think within the conversation um about mission, about uh advancing mission, about being better, and about engaging with donors, because ultimately that's how this program benefits your charity.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: So please have a listen.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, Grant, today I really want to talk about an article that you wrote recently for the Canadian Association of Gift Planners Greater Vancouver chapter uh and their communications uh e-blast.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things you talked about was asset giving, which is wonderful.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that's something that you talk about regularly, but really what I wanted to dive into is Frank Minton and your relationship with Frank Minton.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I've heard you talk about that relationship.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: You were very fortunate when you first began in plan giving that you had this person, a mentor, an expert that you could lean into who taught you the ways of plan giving, the kind of structural foundational aspects of it.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: You came in with a law degree, you came in highly educated, successful, but you yourself understood, I think, and maybe you can just talk about that relationship, but you understood that you needed someone to guide you through the proper processes, the fundamentals really of plan giving.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe you can talk a little bit about the role that Frank played uh and the benefit that expertise from one of the greats uh allowed you to kind of take in and help to guide your career over the years.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, happy to speak about that.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I just think it was an incredible opportunity for me.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, just to give a little bit of background, um, when I had applied for the position with the Canadian Cancer Society, uh Frank Minton and Lorna Summers' first edition um of their book, Plan Giving for Canadians, had just come out.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um fellow lawyer who had just started with a hospital in Vancouver had attended one of the first CAGP courses in Banff by uh Frank Minton and Lorna Summers.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: I knew nothing about CAGP or the Banff course or anything like that.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: And to be honest, I didn't really know much about uh, you know, plan giving, which it was called then from a fundraising perspective.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, just to pause for a minute and talk a little bit about Frank, uh, which I came to know quite quickly and I reflect on it now.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think this applies to most areas of Canada.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, Frank Minton was from just south of Vancouver in the Seattle area.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: He had worked for religious organizations, uh universities, and he had a great influence on a number of young gift planners like me.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: And it was kind of like the wave of gift planning knowledge and mentorship came north, and then I understand it, his uh messaging and learnings started to go east, you know, across across Canada.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um I had the technical background um as a lawyer.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um what I what I didn't have um was Frank's deafness in terms of combining the technical with um you know those donor meetings.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and he told me, you know, great stories about you know kind of two ears, one mouth listening, um and also, you know, setting up a program.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you know, those things remain with me uh to this day.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I there's a number of comments that he made to me, but I I remember, you know, one day he left me a message at the office and I said, you know, there was a voicemail on there saying, unfortunately, I'm out for most of today.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'll get back to you tomorrow.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: And Frank's the only person who's ever responded in this way to the voicemail.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: He said, Grant, I hope your day goes well.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I hope those meetings that you're having are meetings with donors.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: So very much a donor focus beyond all the great technical information and that structural information he gave me on setting up and sustaining growing a program.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's really interesting.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, I had the same sort of relationship with Dr.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Edward Pierce, where it's kind of the education of what a program is.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it brings to mind a story that you told me, and I and maybe this relates to the discussions that you had with Frank when you left the Canadian Cancer Society and went to um the University of British Columbia.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: You told me that you took a look at their marketing activity and you said, you know, we're we might be marketing too much.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: From what I understand, from the work that needs to get done, uh, you know, it's not more is better.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what is right uh is what we need, uh, and we can pull back and even be more successful.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it's about structural activity, not just um, and I do and I do see a lot of programs that we go and take a look at, and there's marketing going on everywhere, but it doesn't seem to be related to a thoughtful, proactive, well-thought-out structure.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm imagining some of that learning when you got to UBC was ringing in your head, or maybe Frank was still mentoring you at that point when you said, we're probably doing too much here, we need to pull back.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe we can talk a little bit about that.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well, there was quite a contrast between um a Canadian Cancer Society, uh, you know, that, and just so you know, I went from plan giving to doing um, you know, kind of more general fundraising at Canadian Cancer Society campaigns, uh, you know, direct response, everything else, which was great learnings.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: But when I got into kind of like a boutique shop, so to speak, at UBC, you know, gift and estate planning, and a gentleman by the name of Clark Warren uh, you know, had really set up, you know, a good program.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it was a bit of an embarrassment of riches, in my view, the number of staff, the number of resources.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: But what I noticed, and I was also noticing it anecdotally with other organizations and colleagues I was talking to, they seemed to go uh from, you know, uh newsletter to you know, tea with the president, to, you know, uh direct response.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, the one thing it it may have come from Frank through osmosis or with others was, you know, I learned very quickly that follow-up is everything uh in fundraising.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, this is an anecdotal example, but I I brought the staff together when we were planning kind of my first year.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I actually thought the potential was much greater at the university for developing relationships with donors, um, securing new expectancies.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, I really think what we have to do this coming year is half the amount of activities in marketing and take that piece and spend more time on initial strategy and also follow-up.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: And what we found was uh we more than doubled uh our number of expectancies with no more resources, staff or financial, uh, but really focusing on okay, who should we be spending our time with?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: What should we be doing with these individuals?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: And then after, for example, we take all the time to meet with someone, make sure that we're following up in a very meaningful way.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that there's those certain kind of just simple wisdom there, right?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Which understands, and I think this does again come from having the right mentors around you and the right experts around you, which is they're telling you, yes, there's a marketing component, but there's also a fundraising component.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's a direct engagement with with these particular prospects, um, and um you know, an understanding that that's um where the magic, if I can call it that, happens.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and you know, also this idea of sometimes, and we know this to be true, the majority of organ, I shouldn't say sometimes, the majority of organizations, if not all the organizations out there that are benefiting substantially from playing gifts are getting more gifts from uh individuals who are not on their expectancy list than on their expectancy list list, sorry.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: But the reality is the process of engagement is like engaging people.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's just always this shadow activity that's coming.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: By just offering the notion that we engage, we're actually engaging with those who don't wish to connect with us.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's an odd thing around that.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I love that.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: How does that play out currently in the way you talk with uh the clients you work with around plan giving?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because I I do know that day-to-day you're likely confronted with people looking for an easy solution, looking for what's that what's that magical thing I can do, that one thing?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: Is it a newsletter?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: Is it a direct mail?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: What should I be doing?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then my my worries will be all done and my program will be humming along.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: What do you how do you approach that when talking to people new to plan giving?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Not necessarily new to fundraising, but new to plan giving.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what I find really interesting, and I and I related to some of the clients at PG Growth that that you and I uh work uh together with, but in but in different ways.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I think a really good example is um an organization right now that you and I have been working with now for uh a year or so.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, my understanding is you are helping them set up that foundational background of the program.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: But what I am starting to notice more and more with some of our clients, which I think is a very positive thing, and maybe it's also the fact that PG Growth offers a different menu of services to different clients, but one of those areas is called PG Council.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: And what I'm very pleased to see is instead of having just these general discussions, okay, you know, Ed is helping us on an e-survey, and you know, this is our return rate.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: And Grant, what should we do?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: What I'm really enjoying is having very specific discussions.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I think of one recently where a gentleman who was thinking of leaving a gift in his will uh was uh very interested in this organization, wanted a site visit, wanted to bring his daughter and grandson to the site visit.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: And the staff that you've been working with in this fundraising shop, they said, Grant, we want to strategize about um what should we be doing at that meeting.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then after it took place, then we had another council session, and they said, Okay, Grant, we want to talk about what should be our follow-up with these different uh generations.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: So this is on their initiative.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think that that is some of the best um advice and mentoring we can give because it's very specific.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what I like about the work that PG Growth does.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: We have that kind of 30,000-foot view.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: This is how you should develop your overall program, but then we can also offer advice in a very granulal way to say, after all of this time and effort on specific marketing strategies, now you have some key people that you uh have qualified that you want to move along.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I actually think that um that shows progress.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think um, you know, to give our clients credit, um, a fair amount of sophistication, and I am presuming that they have been listening to the mentorship that we've been giving them, very much akin to um, you know, I think those early days I had with Frank Minton and learning from him and trying to apply those skills uh to different organizations I've worked for, in addition to my work with PG Grove.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: I I I you know the thing that resonates with me is this idea of this constant process improvement, even within your mind.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: And this happens with me all the time, where I'm always thinking about that.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that comes with this wisdom, right?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: After you and I are both in the 30 plus year club right now, when it comes to plan giving, we've been at it for a long time, right?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and the reality is that you it bring, you know, there's a wisdom that comes with it where we get away from it's this one thing.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: We realize it's complex, right?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, complicated and complex.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: I I learned those two things are really intricate, intricately related.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, understanding it, just like stepping back and saying we need to look at this and that, that UBC.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: Bring back the bring down the marketing, ramp up the the balance between marketing and actual direct donor engagement.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I I see that a lot with with just the some of the language I've been using recently, which um kind of pulling away marketing simply over everything we that's done, because that was the language that was necessary amongst marketing people, and just saying, listen, this is where marketing stops, and this is where fundraising begins.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is where direct engagement begins, or or one of the simple things that we talk about pretty regularly, but sort of is a is something that goes against what used to be the industry standard.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: When I got into plan giving, the industry standard was talk about expectancies.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: How many expectancies do you have?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: What's the and in the last five years we've kind of flipped that on its head completely, and it's like, what's the value of your pipeline?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it just changes the perspective of what this program is.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: And we still see going into lots of organizations where it's all about expectancies and how many, uh, and that's really important, but really it's what's the value, much like a major gift approach, and why do we do that?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: What's this wisdom?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: Is that we're constantly trying to get uh the commitment of leadership to stay with us, particularly as we're building.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's some orthodoxies out there too that kind of got away from us a little bit.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm wondering, you know, now as you are, again, part of the 30 plus year club, and you're the you're one of the you're the Frank Minton right now out there, what are some of the things that you kind of are seeing that you know need need to be evolved in the way that we do plan giving or gift planning or both together?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that we talk a lot about those being a little bit different.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, what's what's you know, one or two things that you're seeing that really the the program of this kind is is needing to adapt and needing to evolve because over the years you've seen it going in this way.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think that uh a concern that um I've always had, but I think I'm finding it more now, and I think it's based on the fact that when I started and and when you started, uh my own impression is um organizations were putting more resources into plan giving, they were hiring full-time staff.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: The view was you needed someone like myself that had a technical background.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: And also I worked with organizations that were fairly large, that were like national health charities, universities, those types of things.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: They were um resourcing it well.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we deal um with a large lot of large organizations across the country, well financed, but we also deal, uh, which I very much enjoy with mid-size organizations um that um someone may be like a 0.5, a 0.7.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's a constant struggle for those people to be able to demonstrate that the time should be spent on the future gifts, not those other areas that are part of their responsibilities.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: And the um counsel and direction I give to a lot of those staff is you have to make sure, number one, that uh leadership, the people that you report to, your other fundraising colleagues, they understand you are a fundraiser.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: That you are being evaluated by numbers.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: There is no mystery here.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: You have to be able to demonstrate, and we deal with a lot of organizations, as you know, Ed, helping them with their budgets for subsequent years and action plans.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm constantly struggling with some new fundraisers, gift planners to mentor them to say you've always got to have a direct link between the resources you want and what the outcomes will be.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, you may not have all those bequest gifts realized in the first year.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: The other thing that I am a bit concerned about is some organizations that do fairly well currently with bequest gifts that are coming in.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'm constantly trying to advise, especially young fundraisers, do not fall into the trap of being evaluated by bequest revenue that, in all due respect, you and your current program may not have had an impact on.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's based on the mission of the organization and people that came before you, or solely the intent of those donors.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like a sword that you will rise with or a sword that you will fall with.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: So show, for example, and I think a really good example in the last week, a hospital foundation that you and I work with on the West Coast, this individual was putting together a program on how to deal with allied professionals and how they should be reaching out.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: Siloed within their program for the next year was talking about the Quest Administration.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: And what I wanted to emphasize to that gift planner, I said, you were spending time with allied professionals, lawyers, accountants, life insurance uh professionals every day with your administration hat on.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: Those can be your key allies and people you're building strong relationships with.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: So make sure and connect that to the marketing piece.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: Don't silo those areas off.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: Again, relate everything to how are you going to develop stronger relationships with donors?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: How are you going to move the program forward?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: And how are you going to get those realized gifts?
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: So don't in any way give the impression to your organization that some of these things that we know are crucial are not, because they're all tied into moving that mission forward.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's really, really great advice.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: As always, Grant, it's always nice to talk to you about this uh this area.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's always great to have a conversation with, again, somebody in the 30 plus year club.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh and your your perspective on this is always well taken.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for your time today.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, thank you.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that was a great conversation with Grant Monk.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and look for him on some more upcoming uh uh podcasts of ours in the next little while.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: Until then, if you have any questions, if you have a comment, please uh send me an email at at pggrowth.com.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: You can always visit pggrowth.com, of course, uh and check us out.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: Take a little bit more of uh in of what we've been doing.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, there's the PG Commons.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to check us out there if you're looking for a community of like-minded fundraisers working in plan giving.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: And uh always uh subscribe to us on uh Apple iTunes or i Apple iPodcasts, and of course Spotify and wherever you get your podcasts.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Looking forward to talking to you next time.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to the PG Growth Podcast.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: If you're looking for more resources about planned giving or just hoping to learn more, we recommend checking out PG Growth's new membership space, PG Commons.
• 26:03
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