Latest / Graymalkin Lane the podcast / The Trial of Piotr Rasputin! Featuring Derek Kunsken, Tristan Palmgren, Harum Scarum, Justin Wilder, and Rob Salerno!

Transcript

The Trial of Piotr Rasputin! Featuring Derek Kunsken, Tristan Palmgren, Harum Scarum, Justin Wilder, and Rob Salerno! · Graymalkin Lane the podcast

0:10
[SPEAKER_06]: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Green Walk and Lane podcast, where queer friends and allies gather to review and discuss the original X-Men comics in continuity order.
0:17
[SPEAKER_06]: We get to record my favorite episode of the month, the trial, and I got to do a script reading this morning, so I'm still smiling from that.
0:23
[SPEAKER_06]: It's a double record day, and it's always my favorites.
0:26
[SPEAKER_06]: In fact, some of my friends have rejoined me for a whole day of recordings, so thank you to those two in particular for coming back.
0:33
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm here with some of my very favorite people for the trial of Piotr Resputin.
0:37
[SPEAKER_06]: And July on the show is all Colossus content.
0:40
[SPEAKER_06]: I've shared a little bit in some of the recordings but the Colossus is not a character I've ever really given much thought to.
0:46
[SPEAKER_06]: But he's like a darling of a character to me now.
0:48
[SPEAKER_06]: After reading his continuity front to back and like really researching, I love this character.
0:53
[SPEAKER_06]: Link by Call of Siberia.
0:54
[SPEAKER_06]: It's been a good year for the Ustordinski collective farm.
0:58
[SPEAKER_06]: The crop has been larger than expected.
1:00
[SPEAKER_06]: The wheat fills the fields like an amber sea.
1:03
[SPEAKER_06]: And those who toil in the fields are filled with a feeling of satisfaction.
1:06
[SPEAKER_06]: The knowledge of a job well done.
1:08
[SPEAKER_06]: And fear.
1:09
[SPEAKER_06]: Peter Rasputin looks up from his work and his eyes grow wide with horror.
1:13
[SPEAKER_06]: He discerns it all in an instant.
1:14
[SPEAKER_06]: the runaway tractor, the child playing blindly in its path.
1:18
[SPEAKER_06]: And without hesitation, Peter Rasputin is running, legs pumping, heart pounding.
1:22
[SPEAKER_06]: The very air around him crackling with the energy of his exertion.
1:26
[SPEAKER_06]: Energy released in a most astonishing manner.
1:28
[SPEAKER_06]: The armored machine bears relentlessly down upon the unwitting child as an armored colossus snatches her from its path.
1:34
[SPEAKER_06]: There is no time for Peter Rasputin to move out of harm's way.
1:37
[SPEAKER_06]: Thus, he stands as ground as the rampant tractor plunges toward him, and he wonders how his poor neighbors will ever afford to buy another.
1:45
[SPEAKER_06]: It's in nineteen seventy-five, and in giant size X-Men number one, Len Ween and Dave Cockrim have launched a new team of all new, all different X-Men, and these are the first pages of dialogue about Peter Rasputin Colossus.
1:56
[SPEAKER_06]: And you learn almost everything you ever need to know about this character, what every writer has been exploring from him since just on this first page.
2:04
[SPEAKER_06]: Number one, Colossus is a damn superhero.
2:06
[SPEAKER_06]: He sees danger, and he lets the tractor crash right into him while thinking about his neighbor.
2:10
[SPEAKER_06]: And much of his heroism lies in his restraint, his ability to not do what he could if he were to let go.
2:16
[SPEAKER_06]: Number two, Colossus has the soul of an artist.
2:19
[SPEAKER_06]: He longs for a simple life.
2:20
[SPEAKER_06]: He wants to work the land with his own hands.
2:22
[SPEAKER_06]: He wants to paint sunsets and build a family.
2:25
[SPEAKER_06]: The complex worlds of mutant politics and the neverending string of anti-mutant terrorists really takes a toll on him.
2:31
[SPEAKER_06]: Number three, Colossus loves his homeland.
2:33
[SPEAKER_06]: The narration describes his community with a sense of purpose and gratitude.
2:37
[SPEAKER_06]: But in a world where the United States is political relationship with Russia, and its various forms is complicated and constantly shifting over time,
2:44
[SPEAKER_06]: And when Communism is generally shamed and vilanized in American stories, here we have a man in nineteen seventy five who loves his home with the determined optimism, changing the narrative.
2:54
[SPEAKER_06]: Number four, Colossus is dedicated to his family, especially his little sister Iliana.
2:59
[SPEAKER_06]: He throws himself in front of the tractor to protect her.
3:01
[SPEAKER_06]: Even when his family's messy, he loves them, and his family is the Rasputans, but it's also the X-Men.
3:06
[SPEAKER_06]: And number five, Colossus is a damn powerhouse.
3:09
[SPEAKER_06]: He's not only crazy attractive, like a big, thick, sexy, himbo bodybuilder, but he turns to metal, striated metal with that sun gleams off of.
3:17
[SPEAKER_06]: Metal that makes it clung, clung, clung, sound while he runs, and a clang when he lifts something up.
3:22
[SPEAKER_06]: The sun catches it just right.
3:23
[SPEAKER_06]: It's an unforgettable design.
3:25
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm joined by an esteemed panel of guests and jury members.
3:28
[SPEAKER_06]: Let me have you each introduce yourselves with your name and pronouns.
3:30
[SPEAKER_06]: Tell us what you love most about Peotor Rasputin.
3:33
[SPEAKER_06]: uh, let me welcome the indelible hair.
3:35
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm scared.
3:35
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm back to the show.
3:36
[SPEAKER_06]: Hi, Harry.
3:37
[SPEAKER_07]: Hi there.
3:38
[SPEAKER_07]: My name is Harry.
3:39
[SPEAKER_07]: I'm scared.
3:39
[SPEAKER_07]: I'm cosplay.
3:40
[SPEAKER_07]: They've them.
3:41
[SPEAKER_07]: I love about he's big and I kind of like the also got to like give it up his health.
3:48
[SPEAKER_07]: His first health.
3:48
[SPEAKER_07]: I got a look.
3:49
[SPEAKER_07]: Like, I think that really put my eye on him for a good while because I'm like, wow, this is this is a look.
3:55
[SPEAKER_07]: Chest out in everything.
3:57
[SPEAKER_07]: I mean, this is slutty.
3:58
[SPEAKER_07]: Anyways, that's what I like about computer.
4:00
[SPEAKER_07]: Big has good fashion or at least he has a good designer on him.
4:03
[SPEAKER_07]: Well, so he's very loyal and you've love a big loyal guy.
4:07
[SPEAKER_06]: And let me also welcome Rob Solerno back to the show.
4:09
[SPEAKER_06]: Rob, it's been ages.
4:10
[SPEAKER_06]: Hi.
4:10
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm Rob Solerno.
4:11
[SPEAKER_06]: He him.
4:12
[SPEAKER_04]: I think what I love most about Colossus is that he's kind of dumb.
4:16
[SPEAKER_04]: This feels kind of like a mean thing to say, but he he's so innocent.
4:20
[SPEAKER_04]: about like everything the way that he just sort of approaches everything is so simple and so straightforward.
4:27
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think that's actually like that's kind of refreshing especially in this franchise where everything there's a tendency to like overthink things and over like talk things to death a little bit sometimes with some characters.
4:39
[SPEAKER_04]: He's not somebody who's been the focus of a lot of stories, which is kind of an interesting thing over his like fifty-year history in the books.
4:47
[SPEAKER_04]: Let me also welcome Justin Wilder back to the show.
4:50
[SPEAKER_03]: Hello, Justin.
4:51
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, Chad.
4:52
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, Grimout can lay in listeners and the rest of the assumed jury guests.
4:57
[SPEAKER_03]: friends.
4:58
[SPEAKER_03]: My name is Justin Wilder.
4:59
[SPEAKER_03]: He him pronouns.
5:01
[SPEAKER_03]: What do I love most about classes?
5:02
[SPEAKER_03]: I love his his contradiction, right?
5:05
[SPEAKER_03]: He's he's a lovely gentle artist, but has the ability to destroy anything with the touch of his organic steel.
5:14
[SPEAKER_03]: I love the transformation, the visual of just armoring up.
5:19
[SPEAKER_03]: It gives a lot of vibes of like
5:21
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it almost feels like it could be a power that you could have as something.
5:26
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's a super suit that just shields you from the world and makes him invulnerable not have to breathe like all of these things that are just layers he can he can make out with rogue from that one time
5:36
[SPEAKER_03]: that they did that on Kenny Xman, one eighty-three is my favorite class of story and on the cover you see Colossus and Juggernaut going at it in a fight in a bar and they destroy the place and it's basically all about the emotional relationships that he has with some of the other Xman as he breaks up with Kitty very abruptly after a trist often I think battle world or secret wars and then also faces the kind of tough love of the father figure Logan or
6:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Drunk Uncle Logan as you know it just you get this dynamic of of where he fits in this as a family and that as an era for Colossus which is why I love him so much is really special to me that Claremont like peak of the stuff just doing the emotional depth and having him struggle anyone recognize the sound it's the Colossus in the X-Men arcade game where he's power up
6:27
[SPEAKER_06]: It was like, he just goes all around of, he's amazing.
6:31
[SPEAKER_06]: And it also welcome Derek Kunzkin back to the show.
6:33
[SPEAKER_05]: Hi, Derek Warren back.
6:35
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm Derek Kunzkin.
6:36
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm he him.
6:37
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm a sci-fi short story writer and novelist.
6:40
[SPEAKER_05]: Why do I love Colossus?
6:42
[SPEAKER_05]: He was among the first four comic books I ever read and I love his visuals.
6:46
[SPEAKER_05]: At, you know, I was ten years old.
6:47
[SPEAKER_05]: I'd never seen anything like it.
6:49
[SPEAKER_05]: He looks super cool.
6:50
[SPEAKER_05]: I love his more quality.
6:52
[SPEAKER_05]: How much of a paragon he is.
6:54
[SPEAKER_05]: His first instinct in most conflict situations is to listen.
6:57
[SPEAKER_06]: My dear friend, Tristan Palmgren is back with us.
6:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello, Tristan.
7:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello, Chad.
7:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello, everybody.
7:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I am Tristan Palmgren.
7:03
[SPEAKER_02]: It pronouns are a fan down.
7:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And my favorite thing about Colossus is his soulfulness.
7:09
[SPEAKER_02]: You described him earlier as a himbo.
7:11
[SPEAKER_02]: I think he does have a little bit of that, but I think there's also something a little more layered and textured to that.
7:17
[SPEAKER_02]: He is a hero who deeply considers things.
7:21
[SPEAKER_02]: He may not unravel everything or may not pick up on every subtdown in front of him, but he looks at things.
7:27
[SPEAKER_02]: He is understated in his opinions.
7:30
[SPEAKER_02]: He's willing to change his mind to think deeply, often in a different way, but still about just his meaningfully as many of the other characters.
7:39
[SPEAKER_02]: My single favorite classes story is probably X been origins classes one.
7:43
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, books understandably get a little sick of origin stories or well established super heroes.
7:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we've seen them time and time again, but I'm still a sucker for a well told well retold origin story.
7:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think they're necessary.
7:59
[SPEAKER_02]: both to update the storytelling for different areas and different audiences and to keep the character grounded.
8:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And this story, an expert origins is the center of classes of six audiences.
8:10
[SPEAKER_02]: It firmly establishes who he is.
8:12
[SPEAKER_02]: It gives us some additional context that we didn't count and it gives us grounding for the character.
8:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Even for readers with the longest established with long histories with these characters having that grounding is necessary.
8:23
[SPEAKER_02]: It's important and it hits hard when it's well done.
8:26
[SPEAKER_06]: And we have covered that issue on the show, so for a long time listeners, you'll recognize that conversation.
8:30
[SPEAKER_06]: It's beautifully done.
8:31
[SPEAKER_06]: Tristan, I agree with everything you just said about Peter's thoughtfulness.
8:35
[SPEAKER_06]: Also, he is King of the Himbals, though.
8:38
[SPEAKER_02]: He has great hair.
8:41
[SPEAKER_02]: I love how every part of him changes and covers it.
8:44
[SPEAKER_02]: He's covered in metal except for his hair.
8:47
[SPEAKER_06]: I think his hair changes too, doesn't it?
8:49
[SPEAKER_06]: His beard.
8:50
[SPEAKER_06]: If he has a beard, it becomes a metal beard.
8:55
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah.
8:56
[SPEAKER_04]: I do think it was a very strong moment for Colossus and it needs to come back.
9:01
[SPEAKER_07]: It was so they really do need to bring that back.
9:04
[SPEAKER_07]: Like, I feel like he would do well with a beard throughout the rest of his appearances.
9:09
[SPEAKER_06]: Part of many people's sexual awakening.
9:11
[SPEAKER_06]: This is a very hot character who's always ripping out of his clothes.
9:15
[SPEAKER_06]: Lastly, I'm Chad Anderson that I used to see him pronouns.
9:17
[SPEAKER_06]: I have been quite a journey with this.
9:18
[SPEAKER_06]: And again, for those that are listening to both shows, you've heard me process through a little bit of this, considering doing Colossus, I didn't feel like I could do it unless I had a good understanding of Marvel's Russia, which requires a deep understanding of the United States and Russia's relationships as it has evolved over decades.
9:34
[SPEAKER_06]: Because in the fifties, it was the Capcomi smashur era, and in the sixties, every Russian was a communist agent of some sort of trope, even the Black Widow, right?
9:44
[SPEAKER_06]: Colossus is a character along with a few other key characters that starts to change the narrative for Russian characters.
9:49
[SPEAKER_06]: But as you develop more into the eighties, nineties, two thousands, and those relationships are changing, there's a point where Soviet Union falls, and the stories become very different than the Cold War era stories.
10:00
[SPEAKER_06]: So there's a lot of stories about Colossus going home.
10:03
[SPEAKER_06]: We've already had someone say, it's not common for Colossus to be the focal point.
10:07
[SPEAKER_06]: I think it's his turn to like lead next mentee.
10:09
[SPEAKER_06]: I could write this character all day long.
10:11
[SPEAKER_06]: I think he's amazing.
10:12
[SPEAKER_06]: When you do find the stories that he is the focal point of, though, I think they're really powerful.
10:16
[SPEAKER_06]: And they're almost always related to his sense of family, protecting his little sister or to his sense of homeland, where he's going home and kind of reckoning with what it means to be someone who defected from his country for a greater or more noble cause.
10:30
[SPEAKER_06]: Colossus as a Russian character is always interesting.
10:33
[SPEAKER_06]: We're seeing this play out in the ultimate Wolverine title right now where Colossus and Magic are like living as kind of like Russian zars in the way like the mutant overlords of their people.
10:44
[SPEAKER_06]: So there's a lot of different versions of this and other universes that I find really interesting.
10:48
[SPEAKER_06]: But our our boy Colossus who just has that pity pure heart softness about him.
10:53
[SPEAKER_03]: It's my favorite thing.
10:54
[SPEAKER_03]: I just love Ultimate Wolverine and how they've been showing that as this alternate version of what that group can do and just love Colossus.
11:02
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so excited to be here.
11:03
[SPEAKER_04]: And while we're talking about an ultimate universe, I think we also have to mention the original ultimate version of Ultimate Colossus.
11:11
[SPEAKER_04]: The scene where North Star first comes on to him and Colossus armors up because he's getting hard.
11:19
[SPEAKER_06]: That is my Colossus is gay everyone if you didn't know.
11:21
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that is one of the key scenes from that entire series that has stuck in my head.
11:27
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, we we've used the phrase a bunch of times the soft boy who grows hard and I think that means a lot of different things, right?
11:33
[SPEAKER_06]: He grows hard for through his trauma.
11:35
[SPEAKER_06]: He grows hard because he's tough.
11:36
[SPEAKER_06]: He grows hard to create a tough exterior, but the sexual component is always really funny, although having sex with a metal man.
11:42
[SPEAKER_06]: Maybe not so pleasant.
11:43
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm not so sure.
11:44
[SPEAKER_06]: We don't have to give too much thought to the organics of body chemistry.
11:49
[SPEAKER_06]: Maybe it's like a kitty conface.
11:50
[SPEAKER_06]: That's all I'm saying.
11:51
[SPEAKER_06]: There's a trio of Colossus stories written by Chris Claremont in Classic X men that really imprint this character in what makes him special.
11:58
[SPEAKER_06]: There's one in Classic X men.
11:59
[SPEAKER_06]: I believe it's five where Colossus flirts with a girl named Ania Makarova who ends up projecting him after learning he's a mutant.
12:05
[SPEAKER_06]: She's a Russian defector.
12:07
[SPEAKER_06]: There's the story in the savage land where he meets Nareel and Fahi and ends up having a three-sum with them, but he's so innocent.
12:13
[SPEAKER_06]: They're like pulling him off to the side and he doesn't know what it's for.
12:16
[SPEAKER_06]: Wolverine's like, I don't know what and I wouldn't do a body.
12:18
[SPEAKER_06]: And his cheeks just turn really pink.
12:21
[SPEAKER_06]: Which results in a child.
12:22
[SPEAKER_06]: We'll talk about that later.
12:23
[SPEAKER_06]: And then there's a later story where he goes home to Russia for the first time and really has to contend with everything that's been left behind and how his people feel about him.
12:31
[SPEAKER_06]: So if you want to look up some key classes stories, those are some short ones that are pretty powerful.
12:35
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay, we're gonna divide our discussion points up until the tropes I introduced earlier, so discussion point one is simply Colossus, the superhero.
12:41
[SPEAKER_06]: Piora Resputin has been an intergalactic superhero for his entire adult life.
12:45
[SPEAKER_06]: After leaving his home, he immediately began combating a sentient radioactive island, and then it was punching animal men to stop nuclear arm a gun, and then smashing demons in his backyard, and then ripping the heads off of death robots, and then defending teammates against the imperial guard of an entire galaxy.
13:02
[SPEAKER_06]: While surviving Earth reorbid, seeing one of his teammates change into a cosmic space god, he also gets a lot of big martyr moments.
13:09
[SPEAKER_06]: This is a character who will throw himself in front of the tractor every time.
13:13
[SPEAKER_06]: One time he injected the legacy virus into himself so he could catalyze a cure.
13:17
[SPEAKER_06]: But Pioters also the heart of the X-Men in a way that's kind of distinctly different to other characters who are the heart of the team, like Kitty, or Kurt, or Rogue.
13:25
[SPEAKER_06]: He's a mainstay.
13:26
[SPEAKER_06]: Pure, he's kind, he's brave and a little dumb.
13:29
[SPEAKER_06]: When he loses faith, he seems to really wrestle with depression and why is the world so complicated and I don't understand why things are so terrible at which is something we're all feeling these days.
13:39
[SPEAKER_06]: But there's a time he became an accolite or the time he became the avatar of Citerac.
13:44
[SPEAKER_06]: When you see him hurt enough to snap rip tides and neck with a single hand, it's very jarring in a way to see this character commit an act of violence because he is so pure.
13:53
[SPEAKER_06]: And whenever he does, he really struggles with how it weighs on him afterward.
13:57
[SPEAKER_06]: Riders love to push him just a bit too far.
14:00
[SPEAKER_06]: And it's easy to do so when he's cornered so forcefully in these impossible situations.
14:04
[SPEAKER_06]: He's a weapon ready to be unleashed at any moment.
14:07
[SPEAKER_06]: If push too far, and often that means someone takes over his mind to do that very thing.
14:12
[SPEAKER_06]: What are some of your favorite moments for Colossus as a hero?
14:16
[SPEAKER_06]: We get lots of big moments with him doing the big noble thing, and then we get moments with him as the martyr.
14:21
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
14:22
[SPEAKER_03]: I love just him throwing himself into danger literally and physically when he jumps from the blackbird.
14:28
[SPEAKER_03]: When to just like, I'm not even concerned for myself.
14:32
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm here to do the mission.
14:33
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm here to save people.
14:35
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like it carries through all the things that he does in other things that he is literally just willing to throw himself in front of the danger if it means to be able to protect his friends and family.
14:45
[SPEAKER_05]: I think what's at the center of Peter is a kind of selflessness.
14:49
[SPEAKER_05]: Because within the group dynamic of the X-Men, I find that he deliberately backgrounds himself a lot.
14:54
[SPEAKER_05]: He shy.
14:55
[SPEAKER_05]: He's quiet.
14:56
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't feel like he has an ego, but I mean that in a good way, like he's cool with who he is in a humble and proud way at the same time.
15:03
[SPEAKER_05]: And I feel that he's far more comfortable taking
15:06
[SPEAKER_05]: like being the background muscle and taking orders and like in some ways it's almost like metaphorically he's he's the good soldier he'll do whatever bravery his officers need of him for whatever good mission there is but will never rise above the metaphorical rank of purple and he's totally cool with that right for as long as you have his loyalty if you lose his loyalty then then you earn you earn it right and if you lose it that's another story
15:30
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah, and that's a story we see play out with him as well.
15:33
[SPEAKER_06]: But yeah, he'll be your most loyal soldier, but he's also a character that wrestles a lot with depression, which is something we see.
15:38
[SPEAKER_06]: Sometimes he martyrs himself quite unnecessarily.
15:41
[SPEAKER_06]: Whatever we see him kind of as that tortured figure, like in the break world story, for example.
15:45
[SPEAKER_06]: This is a character who could really have a glow up.
15:47
[SPEAKER_06]: He could be a member of the Avengers or something, right?
15:49
[SPEAKER_06]: Like he has a pretty lengthy history or record under his belt as a superhero.
15:55
[SPEAKER_06]: So let's jump to discussion point two, Colossus is an artist.
16:00
[SPEAKER_06]: Every time Colossus leaves the life of being a hero, he tends to only find peace in building a farm and painting in a studio.
16:06
[SPEAKER_06]: Jason Aaron gives Pewder this line during a time when Colossus was at peace.
16:10
[SPEAKER_06]: At the end of every day, my hands are filthy with dirt and paint.
16:14
[SPEAKER_06]: That's a sure sign I'm a happy man.
16:16
[SPEAKER_06]: In the early days of the X-Men, he sketched pictures of his teammate in a pad.
16:20
[SPEAKER_06]: In classic X-Men five, which I referenced before, Claremont has Peotre standing in one place and looking out over a city for hours as he tries to capture its essence.
16:28
[SPEAKER_06]: He draws italy the people that he sees.
16:30
[SPEAKER_06]: On critical when the chronicle takes over Peotre's mind, the only way Peotre confines to express himself to break through the mind control is through paint.
16:38
[SPEAKER_06]: When Piotr passed through the Siege Parallis, an artifact that will give you a life that you've always wanted with a cost.
16:45
[SPEAKER_06]: Peter ends up achieving a life as Peter Nicholas.
16:49
[SPEAKER_06]: He's living in a loft apartment in Soho, painting a naked colistos.
16:54
[SPEAKER_06]: Supermodel, a neither of them have any memory of their former lives.
16:58
[SPEAKER_06]: We've seen him put his art in art galleries before, but Pewter's also a lover, which is a big part of his poet site as well, or his artist's site as well.
17:06
[SPEAKER_06]: He loves love.
17:07
[SPEAKER_06]: In this savage land, he has that trist with Nareal and Fahhi that makes his cheeks blush.
17:11
[SPEAKER_06]: By the way, he has a mutant baby there named Peter, but no one has ever acknowledged that in any story ever, and he doesn't know he's a father.
17:17
[SPEAKER_06]: I would love to write that story, someone give me a call.
17:20
[SPEAKER_06]: He fell for the defector Anya Makarolva, and was ready to run away with her after just a day, but she was horrified to learn he was a mutant.
17:27
[SPEAKER_06]: When the young and idealistic Kitty pride joins the team at thirteen, she immediately starts flirting with the older, who's obviously enjoying the attention.
17:34
[SPEAKER_06]: Despite their age difference, we get all those images of her like holding the mistletoe and kissing his cheek and he's blushing.
17:39
[SPEAKER_06]: But as Kitty gets older, she becomes the love of his life.
17:42
[SPEAKER_06]: The beginning of a Shakespearean tragedy of a romance that never seems to end well.
17:47
[SPEAKER_06]: Then we see him often battle world during the secret wars where he falls in love with the healer Zaji at first sight, but she tragically dies in his arms.
17:55
[SPEAKER_06]: He fucked Clisto in that loss, as I mentioned.
17:57
[SPEAKER_06]: He has a few fun friends with benefits relationships along the way, Domino during his mercenary era.
18:03
[SPEAKER_06]: I actually love Pewdieu and Domino together.
18:05
[SPEAKER_06]: I think it's great after dying and coming back.
18:07
[SPEAKER_06]: Peter pledged himself again to Kitty.
18:10
[SPEAKER_06]: But she got lost in break world in that space bullet.
18:12
[SPEAKER_06]: And she was then dating Peter Wisdom and Peter Quill and exploring bisexuality a little bit.
18:18
[SPEAKER_06]: And whenever Peotor seems ready to settle down and begin their life together, she doesn't seem quite ready in return.
18:24
[SPEAKER_06]: There are so many alternate futures where we see the two of them together with children.
18:28
[SPEAKER_06]: But in Mark Guggenheim's X-Men Gold, they finally get engaged and moved toward marriage.
18:33
[SPEAKER_06]: Every time Peotor saves the day, Kitty's doubts about him go away.
18:36
[SPEAKER_06]: She's like, I'm not sure we should get married and then he does something heroic.
18:39
[SPEAKER_06]: She's like, no, never mind.
18:40
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm all in.
18:40
[SPEAKER_06]: We're still in.
18:41
[SPEAKER_06]: Let's do this.
18:41
[SPEAKER_06]: She has this big hard rock of a man once again.
18:44
[SPEAKER_06]: But when they get to the all actual altar, justice, he's ready to slip the ring on his finger.
18:48
[SPEAKER_06]: She phases through it.
18:49
[SPEAKER_06]: And Rogan Gambit get married instead.
18:51
[SPEAKER_06]: It's fine.
18:52
[SPEAKER_06]: But Peter announces he's done with the relationship for good at this point.
18:55
[SPEAKER_06]: Bitter first, he starts drinking, he goes back to being a hero, he loses big, he goes back to farming in the savage land, but this your girlfriend Kayla, at least until Mikael and the chronicler made him break her neck.
19:08
[SPEAKER_06]: In Kanye Xman, one sixty-five, when the brood might kill them all, Piotr tells Kitty, who's like thirteen, fourteen at the time.
19:16
[SPEAKER_06]: What you do not comprehend is that we are dying from the moment of birth, indeed from the moment, from the instant of conception.
19:23
[SPEAKER_06]: Creation bears within itself the seeds of its own destruction.
19:26
[SPEAKER_06]: Our lives are finite things.
19:28
[SPEAKER_06]: We live our allotted span and our no more.
19:31
[SPEAKER_06]: Regardless of what we may do, how hard we try, the best we can hope for is a brief delay of the inevitable.
19:37
[SPEAKER_06]: It is sad, even cruel, but it's also our most fundamental reality to be faced and accepted.
19:42
[SPEAKER_06]: And then after commenting on how Kitty was too young, he kissed her for the first time.
19:46
[SPEAKER_06]: So let's talk about Peter's soul as an artist.
19:50
[SPEAKER_06]: We have to have the conversation about Peter and Kitty's illicit tour of the fair over the years.
19:57
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know, first of all, it's it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,
20:03
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I don't know if the standards were different for age difference or anything else back then like obviously now it's a key but like when I was reading it I didn't know any better and so I'm like oh that seems like just on the edge like you know it seemed almost acceptable to an eleven year
20:18
[SPEAKER_05]: kid and it always seemed that she was pursuing him and he was the one who wasn't quite sure what to do with it and it's almost like that, excused it even a little more because like there was full agency on her part and he was like okay like she was the one in the driver seat.
20:33
[SPEAKER_05]: I think too that like if you look at all these relationships I wonder
20:37
[SPEAKER_05]: How many of them have an element of shame or embarrassment to the court?
20:41
[SPEAKER_05]: Like because the blushing of colossus seems to be something that goes on and on like when he has that trist in the savage land with kitty kissing under the mistletoe.
20:49
[SPEAKER_05]: These are the things that very often there seems to be this asterisk of of shame mildly associated with some of those relationships.
20:57
[SPEAKER_05]: The other thing that I find curious is, you know, he's got the heart to be somebody who's like, I love you.
21:03
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm in a commit.
21:03
[SPEAKER_05]: Let's get married.
21:04
[SPEAKER_05]: We'll grow old together.
21:05
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, this is, this is his way of being.
21:08
[SPEAKER_05]: And yet, in none of those relationships does that ever really happen.
21:11
[SPEAKER_05]: And I don't know if that's telling us something thematically important about him, that way of looking at the world.
21:18
[SPEAKER_05]: I think there's a question mark there for me too.
21:20
[SPEAKER_05]: There's a lot of texture to the way he reacts with romance and sexuality, I think.
21:25
[SPEAKER_06]: I think textures are very fair word.
21:27
[SPEAKER_06]: And so yeah, let's just have this conversation all at once.
21:30
[SPEAKER_06]: In many comic book stories over the years, it has been relatively customary to have the older guy, younger girl or vice versa at times, right?
21:38
[SPEAKER_06]: And as long as it's seen as appropriate.
21:41
[SPEAKER_06]: So one big one that we bring up in Marvel Conversations quite often is the Reed Richards Sue Storm story, because there's a number of flashbacks where he's like a college student and she's eleven.
21:51
[SPEAKER_06]: And there's like thoughts of boy when she grows up, you know, dot, dot, dot.
21:54
[SPEAKER_06]: And they've read combat history out a little bit, but very much like the daddy and daddy's girl go back to the candy side.
22:03
[SPEAKER_06]: But we also see characters like we had the Jamie Madd drawx, Layla Miller conversation on the show during the multiple man trial, right?
22:11
[SPEAKER_06]: Where she had this to has to get aged up and she has a teen is like, I'm going to marry you when I get older.
22:15
[SPEAKER_06]: I think, you know, the high school girl who has the crush on the senior or on the principal, as long as it's just a kiss on the cheek and that's as far as it goes, I think there's a certain amount of allowance, but the more time passes, the weirder we see that.
22:27
[SPEAKER_07]: Like Peter and Domino, very interesting combination because you don't really, listen, where Domino has very different values from what Peter does.
22:36
[SPEAKER_07]: So it is very interesting to see them kind of both clash, but it's also like this isn't really a relationship relationship.
22:41
[SPEAKER_07]: They're just fucking the other day.
22:42
[SPEAKER_07]: But in response to the Peter Kitty dynamic, I have a lot of thoughts on where the relationships started and how the relationship ends.
22:51
[SPEAKER_07]: because it's definitely a great area in that regard her like very much pursuing him at the age of thirteen fourteen while he's eighteen at the time and I think they had a little bit more wiggle room because they're both teenagers but it's still like this is a very odd relationship to get into.
23:09
[SPEAKER_07]: So let's see where it goes over the years anyway since we're already in it they're not going to change it.
23:14
[SPEAKER_07]: or if they do change it, it's all gonna go back to status quo, which we see a lot along the years.
23:19
[SPEAKER_07]: We see them kind of have the strong foundation of relationship.
23:23
[SPEAKER_07]: Again, like you said, we see a lot of different future iterations of them, where they have children together, where they are facing a veritable mutant apocalypse together with a family on their hip.
23:33
[SPEAKER_07]: You have Peter with this undying loyalty towards Kitty.
23:37
[SPEAKER_07]: Kitty doesn't really have that same or in later years.
23:40
[SPEAKER_07]: She stopped having that same kind of loyalty and a good amount of it was because of the type of self sacrifice that Peter would kind of get into.
23:47
[SPEAKER_07]: It was something that she couldn't handle at a point because he would always throw himself on the sword at any point for whether it be for her, whether it be for the world, whether it be for the mutant population.
23:59
[SPEAKER_07]: You do see him kind of throw himself on the sword many a time.
24:02
[SPEAKER_07]: And I think that kind of helped in breaking down their relationship unfortunately at the end of the day.
24:08
[SPEAKER_07]: But it was good to see him move on even if it wasn't in the healthiest ways that he moved on from her.
24:14
[SPEAKER_06]: There's so many iconic moments of the two of them over the years.
24:18
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm thinking of astonishing X-Men where they have sex and she phases while orgasming.
24:26
[SPEAKER_06]: I love him blushing in the savage land.
24:29
[SPEAKER_06]: There's a lot of moments for this character where he's being so poetic even as he's breaking up with Kitty.
24:33
[SPEAKER_06]: He's like, I just love love so much.
24:35
[SPEAKER_06]: I have to love someone else now and she's like, fuck you.
24:37
[SPEAKER_06]: And then Kitty starts dating a series of very skinny like kind of bad boy rebels named Peter instead.
24:44
[SPEAKER_06]: Also gloss is always popping out of his clothes.
24:46
[SPEAKER_06]: It's just, oh no, another shirt.
24:48
[SPEAKER_06]: It makes me smile every time.
24:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I do like the domino relationship I get day.
24:53
[SPEAKER_02]: The personalities mesh very well.
24:55
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a whole lot in the Peter Kitty relationship that I don't want to touch with for forty foot full.
24:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Like Derek said, it was the first half a century year old that stories when this was happening at the begin where that
25:06
[SPEAKER_02]: was, you know, just kind of without making excuses for it.
25:10
[SPEAKER_02]: This is that the older man, younger woman dynamic was part of the power fantasy that was being sold to sold to readers.
25:18
[SPEAKER_02]: It's worth having strength discussions about that, about the achy parts of that while still doing what we can, taking what we can from them and moving and moving on.
25:27
[SPEAKER_04]: I think the thing, one of the things that is so great about the Colossus and Dom relationship, Domino relationship, is that Colossus is someone who needs a Dom literally.
25:38
[SPEAKER_04]: Like he is someone who is quite submissive in a lot of these relationships, even though he is so powerful.
25:44
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's sort of something that I think is some a little bit of context in the kitty relationship is that it is about kitty pursuing Peter for most of it and him just kind of being like, I don't know what to do.
25:56
[SPEAKER_04]: Girls constantly all over me and she's bullying him through most of it.
25:59
[SPEAKER_04]: She constantly calls him dummy.
26:01
[SPEAKER_04]: That's like all over the place through this relationship.
26:04
[SPEAKER_04]: She's like, ah, you're dummy.
26:06
[SPEAKER_04]: You just like, you don't know what to do.
26:08
[SPEAKER_04]: Let me just boss you around for a little bit.
26:10
[SPEAKER_04]: And then now I don't think I'm not at all defending this.
26:14
[SPEAKER_04]: Fourteen to nineteen year old age gap relationship here.
26:17
[SPEAKER_04]: I think even in the eighties that would have been appropriate if you look at like sitcoms at the time the trope of like an annoying little sister who was like into the the cold or friends that it was presented as like a creepy thing, but it was kind of presented as a comedy thing.
26:31
[SPEAKER_04]: It wasn't presented to something that like the guy would ever reciprocate because that's gross and crossing the line.
26:38
[SPEAKER_04]: I think eventually writing it out was the right move for Claremont.
26:43
[SPEAKER_04]: What really, what I actually find really creepy is when they do write it out, Wolverine gives him that speech of like, well, you know, you could have gotten serious with her and Mary her and
26:53
[SPEAKER_04]: you know, given her everything she wanted.
26:55
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's the thing that I find so weird in that relationship in those those Claremont stories.
27:00
[SPEAKER_04]: But it was such a like Marvel AD's thing like when you bring when you bring up, you know, read and sue, which thankfully that's been basically, you know, completely divorced from continuity at this point.
27:11
[SPEAKER_04]: We're still talking also about classes art because I do have some thoughts on that.
27:15
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah, let's talk about him as a painter.
27:16
[SPEAKER_04]: Because one of the things that I think also plays into Colossus being kind of a hymnboat, and this might be a controversial take, his art is terrible.
27:25
[SPEAKER_04]: His art is terrible.
27:26
[SPEAKER_04]: It expresses nothing.
27:28
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just sketches of whatever.
27:30
[SPEAKER_04]: And I say this as someone who does these kinds of sketches as well and puts themselves them on Instagram.
27:37
[SPEAKER_04]: They're not like he
27:38
[SPEAKER_04]: He's presented as like this, you know, soulful artist and what he's doing is like drawing nudes of colisto and at any time we actually see his paintings in the comics and I know this is a function of like it's an artist rendering another artist art.
27:51
[SPEAKER_04]: It's never as good as even the artists.
27:54
[SPEAKER_04]: who is drawing the panel it like it always looks bad and I feel like that kind of plays into this idea at least for me of Claus as being this like himbo who's just you know he's like oh he's a hot artist who lives in soo and bangs hot women and like people fall over his paintings like that is such a scene that is so divorced from artistic quality that I just I actually think it's so funny that that's where the siege perilous puts him it's like oh you want to be an artist here you go artists
28:25
[SPEAKER_02]: But I'll defend classes in that art.
28:28
[SPEAKER_02]: The process of creating art necessarily entails making a lot of bad art.
28:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Everybody makes makes bad art.
28:35
[SPEAKER_02]: And the fact that we're seeing classes is on page yet.
28:38
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's kind of like peeking into an author's rough drafts or an artist's sketches and comparing them to to published work.
28:47
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the fact that he's creating art at all is the most important thing.
28:51
[SPEAKER_06]: like the epitome of uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh
29:13
[SPEAKER_05]: He was working with, we're trying to create these fantasies for readers to insert themselves into the power fantasies totally there like that sci-fi and the pulse and everything else.
29:22
[SPEAKER_05]: It's all about power fantasy and super heroics obviously the same thing and it's interesting like what Rob made me think of is like the inserted and arc fantasy into a power fantasy story.
29:33
[SPEAKER_05]: The arc there doesn't look very good.
29:34
[SPEAKER_05]: good, but the person who may have aspirations of being an artist who may or who may, while they're falling asleep, it want to imagine themselves being an artist painting, you know, spot somebody.
29:45
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, it doesn't need to be realistic.
29:46
[SPEAKER_05]: It only needs to create inspire the fantasy in the reader.
29:50
[SPEAKER_05]: And so I think that's just an interesting thing I've never considered about comics before.
29:54
[SPEAKER_07]: I think he's in the wrong lane of art sometimes because Cossus does have a beautiful way with words at the end of the day.
30:00
[SPEAKER_07]: I think he would have a little bit more fun just having a little book right down a little bit of poetry.
30:04
[SPEAKER_07]: He is dumb.
30:05
[SPEAKER_07]: Yes, I will absolutely admit to that.
30:07
[SPEAKER_07]: But again, the way that he can string together his feelings in words.
30:13
[SPEAKER_07]: I think comes across way better than what he can do in his art at the end of the day.
30:17
[SPEAKER_06]: I like that phrasing of low and intelligence behind wisdom.
30:19
[SPEAKER_06]: I think that's really nice.
30:20
[SPEAKER_06]: He's just a character who teens a lot of time to sort out how he feels about something.
30:24
[SPEAKER_06]: And that's a very long-term running thing.
30:26
[SPEAKER_06]: He does not like to make a swift decision.
30:28
[SPEAKER_06]: He only can do that when it's a life or death thing where cyclops is thinking of all the different strategies and angles military strategy.
30:35
[SPEAKER_06]: Colossus needs a long time to disorder what's morally right.
30:38
[SPEAKER_04]: The identification character in these Claremont comments at this era is Kitty, assuming that the typical reader of an X-Men comic in the eighties was a young boy and make the identification character a young girl is interesting.
30:52
[SPEAKER_04]: It is like sort of a power fantasy of like chasing this, you know, hot guy that she's not going to get.
30:58
[SPEAKER_06]: Kitty is the protagonist as a teen girl with a complex emotional reality, who has divorcing parents.
31:04
[SPEAKER_06]: I think there's a lot, she represents a whole generation of readers also secretly a lesbian.
31:09
[SPEAKER_04]: There is something performative in her chasing after a class as well.
31:14
[SPEAKER_04]: Kitty's every thought bubble in Excalibur is, oh my god, I'm so horny for boys, but the boys never look at me because Rachel Summers is even horny for boys and they're all horny for her.
31:27
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's it's just it's so fascinating that these two less beings through mates are like performatively doing Rachel's never performatively chasing after boys, but kitty one hundred percent is through this entire series and that is a sort of layer to our personality and to are coming out story.
31:43
[SPEAKER_05]: My first comic of the X-Men was one twenty eight, which was just prior to kiddie joining.
31:47
[SPEAKER_05]: And so in fact, my insertion character for all of the eighties was Peter because he was the youngest on the team.
31:53
[SPEAKER_05]: He wasn't the leader.
31:54
[SPEAKER_05]: There was no pressure just to what you're told.
31:56
[SPEAKER_05]: And yet you're still going to be heroic.
31:57
[SPEAKER_05]: He was my favorite character for at least the first five years.
32:00
[SPEAKER_05]: I was reading comics.
32:01
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay, let's keep going.
32:02
[SPEAKER_06]: Discussion points three and four, Piotr as a Russian and Piotr as a Rasputin.
32:07
[SPEAKER_06]: The shape of this episode took form with a lot of very careful research, which is a fun, always a funny thing, because most of that research just ends up being in my brain, and never gets used directly, although a whole database of stories are what are right.
32:17
[SPEAKER_06]: But I spent hours watching films reading articles, exploring the history of the Soviet Union and Russia, the history of Russia's relationships with the United States, and how they've shifted over the last several decades.
32:26
[SPEAKER_06]: Primarily, the history of the portrayal of Russian characters in Hollywood and stories, especially Marvel Comics over the years.
32:33
[SPEAKER_06]: Listers of the Patreon are going to hear in depth these explorations in my episodes about Unicorn, Blind Faith, Lexi Vajan, and five more of these episodes to view on the Patreon this month as we celebrate Colossus, including the Red Ghost and the Suprapes, the Presence and Starlight, Ursa Major, Elena Ivanova, and Mikhail Rasputin.
32:50
[SPEAKER_06]: And frankly, this barely scratches the surface when you stretch that canvas in the Marvel Universe to the Black Widow, the Crimson Dynamo, Magic Dark Star Omega Red, third dozens of characters here.
33:00
[SPEAKER_06]: Colossus is very, very relevant in every aspect of this, from the subtleties in the way he speaks to the definitions of how he perceives community, but especially in the stories that revolve around his connection to Russia itself.
33:12
[SPEAKER_06]: For some brief considerations, things that you might want to consider, and I won't get too lost in the educational piece of this, although it's really interesting.
33:18
[SPEAKER_06]: Consider Peter's catchphrases.
33:20
[SPEAKER_06]: But one from the early days is by the white wolf.
33:22
[SPEAKER_06]: This one doesn't seem to have any specific connotations I could find, but Peter is from Siberia, and there are surely wolves there.
33:28
[SPEAKER_06]: But it seems almost more foxy, like Odin's beard.
33:31
[SPEAKER_06]: However, the word white in this context can give very uncomfortable connotations to racial purity, which Russia has its own complex relationship with.
33:38
[SPEAKER_06]: But in Russia, why does also the color of the anti-communist movement, that which is represented by the color red, right?
33:45
[SPEAKER_06]: The red stars on everything.
33:47
[SPEAKER_06]: So consider the black widow, the red widow, the white widow.
33:51
[SPEAKER_06]: If you just look at those tropes and the way those colors are represented, it's fascinating.
33:55
[SPEAKER_06]: The next catchphrase that comes to mind is Lenin's ghost.
33:57
[SPEAKER_06]: This is a direct reference to Vladimir Lenin, who led the Bolshevik Revolution in nineteen seventeen and launched the first communist state and created the Soviet Union, which was a union between Soviet states.
34:08
[SPEAKER_06]: Notice the red terror, he killed so many people in a civil war against the anti-communist citizens and foes, Stalin took over from this guy.
34:16
[SPEAKER_06]: Labor camps, famine, maybe five million estimated to have died under his reign, four times under what would die under Stalin, who also killed a lot of people.
34:25
[SPEAKER_06]: So Peter, shouting about Lenin's ghost is consequential.
34:28
[SPEAKER_06]: And by the way, in the Macau Rasputin episode, we pause it that Macau is a template for Lenin.
34:33
[SPEAKER_06]: It's just an interesting thought experiment already.
34:36
[SPEAKER_06]: Then we have simpler words he uses all the time, like Tolverish, which used to mean companion.
34:41
[SPEAKER_06]: And during the years of Lenin install and it came to mean the word equal, but it's extremely out of fashion and has been for decades, but the character keeps using it on this page.
34:50
[SPEAKER_06]: The only place you see Tolverish used in fiction basically is with Colossus.
34:54
[SPEAKER_06]: but he also likes to say things like, boy, boy, which is a much simpler thing, like, oh my god.
34:59
[SPEAKER_06]: On occasion, you'll also see Colossus yelling things like, for the mother country, or for the homeland, or for mother Russia.
35:05
[SPEAKER_06]: Over that time, Arcade captured Colossus and brainwashed him as the proletarian.
35:10
[SPEAKER_06]: No longer am I the X-Men Colossus, a traitor to his motherland and his people.
35:14
[SPEAKER_06]: Now I am the proletarian workers hero for the Soviet Union.
35:18
[SPEAKER_06]: A proletariat is defined as the working class in Marxist philosophy, the counter to the bourgeoisie.
35:24
[SPEAKER_06]: His costume, which is a sexy red worker's number, with literally the hammer in the sickle, the sign representing the connection between farming and industry in communist regimes.
35:34
[SPEAKER_06]: Costume also has the letters CCCP on it, which is literally the code for Russia or the Soviet Union in Russian.
35:40
[SPEAKER_06]: and has a picture of Lenin on it.
35:42
[SPEAKER_06]: No joke, go look at that costume up again.
35:43
[SPEAKER_06]: Hammer's Sickle, CCCP, and Lenin are all on it, as he describes himself as the proletariat.
35:49
[SPEAKER_06]: The hero van guard by the way also wields a hammer and sickle in combat, and there are other versions of this used quite frequently, including the shield in Russia is Sickle, SiCKLE, and fun fact, the director of that program is Omega Red's brother.
36:04
[SPEAKER_06]: But that's a story for another time.
36:05
[SPEAKER_06]: Peotor's last name is Rasputin, which carries with its own very heavy history.
36:10
[SPEAKER_06]: Griglori Rasputin was a Siberian peasant born in eighteen sixty-nine, who proclaimed himself as a mystic, eventually granting him access to the inner circle of the Russian SARS.
36:19
[SPEAKER_06]: Over several years, he developed a certain amount of political influence until he was assassinated in nineteen sixteen.
36:25
[SPEAKER_06]: The SARS, or the Roman Ops, were overthrown during the following year, and among them was their daughter Anastasia.
36:32
[SPEAKER_06]: So if you've seen that movie, I just read their spoilers.
36:36
[SPEAKER_06]: In the series, Colossus Bloodlines, which we do review on the show this month, we learned that Mr. Sinister experimented on the Rasputin family line, increasing the likelihood that their descendants would be mutants, but also drive them mad, but also maybe have them carry the essence of their weird wizard grandfather inside them.
36:52
[SPEAKER_06]: We'll talk about that in the bloodlines episode.
36:55
[SPEAKER_06]: Piotr was raised in the Ustordinski collective near Lake Bikhal in Siberia, a harsh land.
37:00
[SPEAKER_06]: Lake Bikhal is like the largest lake in the world, I think.
37:03
[SPEAKER_06]: Collectives were formed by Stalin in the nineteen thirties, forming the working class into community groups who worked for single-minded purpose and provided all they had back to the motherland.
37:13
[SPEAKER_06]: So the collective farms provided crops and the state and the military were honored first and foremost, which often meant people who were living in poverty as they provided for armies and the states, which is where the famine stuff kicks in.
37:26
[SPEAKER_06]: But any individual that was seen by the government as having special or particular talents would be taken away from families and home to train as an athlete, a soldier, or a cosmonaut.
37:36
[SPEAKER_06]: Now, here's the fictional story of Theodor.
37:38
[SPEAKER_06]: He's the son of Nikolai and Alexandria Rasputin, and he's the middle child.
37:42
[SPEAKER_06]: His older brother, Mikhail, was said to be an early Russian cosmonaut.
37:46
[SPEAKER_06]: Later turns out he's a crazy, powerful mega mutant, so go check that episode out.
37:50
[SPEAKER_06]: Theodor's power is manifested in his grief when he learned about his brother dying.
37:54
[SPEAKER_06]: His happy childhood now replaced by a hearty exterior of organic metal.
37:58
[SPEAKER_06]: His sister Iliana was also a mutant, and so much of Piotr's history has been about protecting her.
38:02
[SPEAKER_06]: Now, before we get into this part, let me recount two quick stories.
38:05
[SPEAKER_06]: The Kyle was taken by the Russians, a mutant resource for them to use, and he ended up lost in another direction.
38:11
[SPEAKER_06]: And many years later, in the soul-skinner storyline, Iliana, who also has her own insane history with Velasco and Limbo and the Dark Child, was a happy child living with her parents once again, but when the KGB decided, she was needed as a resource, an armed military unit stormed the house, killing Piotr's parents.
38:27
[SPEAKER_06]: When Pioters' powers were learned of, according to X-Men Origins' Colossus I, an armed unit was sent out to get Pioter, but Charles Xavier intervened, and he instead recruited Pioter to his X-Men, allowing him to defect.
38:39
[SPEAKER_06]: So while Pioters' family was killed, his peers, his own age, were recruited as soldiers in Russia's war with Afghanistan, which is a real thing.
38:47
[SPEAKER_06]: And Piotr himself has always escaped the cost of his country's requirements.
38:50
[SPEAKER_06]: We won't go into it deeply here, but Russia has a very complex history with mutants doing active experiments on them, dumping them in pits full of bodies, or turning them into operatives for their military.
39:01
[SPEAKER_06]: Piotr has an occasional cousin or uncle who's worked into a story, but mostly it's just him, Mikhail Aniliana, told over and over again.
39:09
[SPEAKER_06]: It's really interesting for me by the way to consider Russian tropes among the siblings.
39:13
[SPEAKER_06]: If you look at my Kyle as the cosmonaut, the politician, or the essence of the corruption of power, you can then see Piotr as the farmer, the proletariat, the artist, the reluctant hero, and Eliana as the witch, the child, the loss of innocence.
39:26
[SPEAKER_03]: It kind of goes back to what we were talking about towards the start.
39:29
[SPEAKER_03]: The Colossus gets to be this different kind of Russian hero.
39:33
[SPEAKER_03]: He gets to be a hero who is fighting with a team that is largely centered in America.
39:39
[SPEAKER_03]: He gets to be seen as this
39:41
[SPEAKER_03]: Good boy who just has good values.
39:44
[SPEAKER_03]: But loves his family trying to do the right thing.
39:46
[SPEAKER_03]: I just feel like to further that and then show the shades of how that compares to the manipulation of Mikhail and what initially happened to him, how he was captured.
39:56
[SPEAKER_03]: I was used as a tool of Russia.
39:59
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it also connects to the strategy around launching the characters in the giant size issue, right?
40:05
[SPEAKER_03]: They wanted to appeal to the readers in the countries of these characters of origin, right?
40:10
[SPEAKER_03]: So to tell this great hero who gets to act heroic, who gets to do the right thing, to save the day and then reveal how the different ways that his family connects to the story that Russia is in with mutants.
40:24
[SPEAKER_03]: Uh, it's funny because I never really considered Iliana to be, I mean, she's Russian, but I just, I don't associate those as well, just because of how impactful limbo is on her story and the manipulation of Blasco and what that is.
40:38
[SPEAKER_03]: But to see those themes drawn out as another shade of what could be a dude not to backtrack completely, but Iliana is the correct Rasputin for Kitty Pride.
40:47
[SPEAKER_03]: If we're going to, you know, it started weird, it ended weird.
40:50
[SPEAKER_03]: There was some great stuff in between, but let's just let it go and heal.
40:53
[SPEAKER_06]: She had a crush on Piotr until Eligana came along.
40:56
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, absolutely.
40:57
[SPEAKER_06]: Now there's some interesting things when we start talking about him as a Russian character.
41:02
[SPEAKER_06]: When we're talking about the catch phrases or the ways the government has changed, or even the fact that he's a defector.
41:07
[SPEAKER_07]: I think Piotr was the first of the Russian characters that really be portrayed as a hero in comics.
41:13
[SPEAKER_07]: We have a lot of different characters that are usually like you've already went over black widows in there.
41:17
[SPEAKER_07]: Crimson Dynamo is another one I believe Titanium Man.
41:20
[SPEAKER_07]: All of them presented as evil Ruskies at the end of the day.
41:23
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, the literal original Crimson Dynamo story is him fighting Iron Man and then choosing to defect from Russia and dying as a result.
41:30
[SPEAKER_07]: Which wild as hell.
41:31
[SPEAKER_07]: But when it comes down to Colossus and where his loyalty is by with either way that being a defector, which it seems like he's very much anti-communist from what I can tell in the comics.
41:42
[SPEAKER_07]: From what I can tell from early reading,
41:44
[SPEAKER_07]: And that's always like a weird, generally, that's a weird thing for me to get into because I have a little bit with certain communist ideals.
41:51
[SPEAKER_07]: I don't necessarily agree with, I don't necessarily disagree with certain sentiments that are raised in communism.
41:56
[SPEAKER_07]: So it's always interesting to read him as a character that he is very much against what some of what communism sets up in regards to workers' rights and everything.
42:06
[SPEAKER_06]: There's sometimes the target of anti-communist thinking patterns, but I think he's rarely a character who will speak out about a particular government system.
42:14
[SPEAKER_06]: He's more a character that believes in the goodness of people.
42:17
[SPEAKER_06]: So he gives that story very much of like, I recognize that there's corruption in the government, but I still love my country because I believe in the goodness of the people there, right?
42:26
[SPEAKER_06]: He's thinking about the farmers that he grew up with, not the KGB, when he considers Russia.
42:31
[SPEAKER_06]: And I think I like that about him, but I think they often avoid putting those words in his mouth.
42:35
[SPEAKER_07]: for sure, but it's very much codified into him that he is the poster child for what a good Russian is supposed to be the most American propaganda at that.
42:47
[SPEAKER_07]: It's it's always interesting to see how certain Russian characters are kind of used as propaganda pieces to uphold certain elements in the US empire as it is.
42:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
42:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, we talked about this a bit in the Lexi Belgian episode, but one thing remarkable about Peter just in the broader context is that this was a cultural moment in which Russian characters were starting to allow to be portrayed as heroic often opposed in some respects, but often teeming up with like American characters Western characters.
43:16
[SPEAKER_02]: against greater eagles and greater antagonists.
43:18
[SPEAKER_02]: It's something that you saw a lot like in the James Bond films where the Russians appear a lot but most often, you know, in the role of a competitor rather than a villain, even in the original Star Trek series, there are some heroic play-ons where the Russian stand-ins, thinking in particular, and the sort called the day of the dove have never been quite certain what to what to make of the of choosing the main rescue in for Peter, because it's
43:43
[SPEAKER_02]: It has a lot tangled up with it, but historically, Rasputin was a common man who lied his way into the confidence of the Sarnina.
43:54
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think that that's what the writers were intending to evoke with which his name.
43:59
[SPEAKER_02]: But more like just the idea that Rasputin or kind of became afterwards as a mysterious figure, the person that he presented himself as to the Sarnina.
44:10
[SPEAKER_06]: I have a lot of thoughts on that, but we put that in the bloodlines episode, so I'll leave that out of this one.
44:15
[SPEAKER_06]: But there is that story where we review in the version episode where Colossus goes home to Russia for the first time.
44:20
[SPEAKER_06]: He's so happy to be home to see his parents.
44:22
[SPEAKER_06]: When he uses his powers, a lot of the youth in his village are super upset with him.
44:27
[SPEAKER_06]: because they're like, you had this ability and you should have given it to the state.
44:30
[SPEAKER_06]: Your contemporaries, my son, my brother, they died in the war in Afghanistan, but why are you here?
44:35
[SPEAKER_06]: And Colossus surrenders, he's like, okay, then send me to jail or rest me, it's okay.
44:38
[SPEAKER_06]: And the KGB guy, Vashin has to come bail him out and tell him, like, look, some people are a hero for Russia, but you are representing Russia as a world hero.
44:46
[SPEAKER_06]: Your job is to go be an international hero.
44:48
[SPEAKER_06]: Like, I cared about your brother Mikhail, so I'm sending you off to do this now.
44:52
[SPEAKER_06]: So Xavier bringing him in is allowed him to escape that, but I would be thrilled to watch this character interact with other Russian characters.
44:58
[SPEAKER_06]: It'd be interesting to see those ideas played out when you pair him with characters like Dark Star and Vanguard or the Crimson Dynamo or any characters off of the Winter Guard, right?
45:07
[SPEAKER_05]: Or, uh, or some major, right?
45:08
[SPEAKER_05]: Justin, that it'd be interesting to think of what Len Ween meant to do by adding Colossus to the team and what Claremont ultimately did with him.
45:16
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think Len Ween's insertion of this international character was a bit like Chekhov and Sulu being on the bridge of the Enterprise in the sixties, whereas Claremont was like, he's reacting to the setting with Colossus clashing against it to try and see something about the Marvel universe that's heroes and pointing at sometimes about a better world.
45:33
[SPEAKER_05]: Because really he doesn't clash often with that political setting because there aren't that many stories about him.
45:38
[SPEAKER_05]: And so it feels like it's only superficially examined.
45:41
[SPEAKER_05]: Like at times it feels like it's a reinforcement of existing societal Cold War propaganda, which itself is a bit of a fantasy element.
45:49
[SPEAKER_05]: But for kids, right, in the Cold War, like people didn't know what living in Russia was like really the common person I mean.
45:56
[SPEAKER_05]: And then the rest of it, sometimes felt like a superhero soap opera dressed up as what Americans think.
46:00
[SPEAKER_05]: So be a cultural trappings look like.
46:02
[SPEAKER_05]: But I think ultimately, Colossus is the stripper person who escapes the gravity of his origins.
46:07
[SPEAKER_05]: And as you say, he becomes an international hero rather than being a Russian hero.
46:11
[SPEAKER_05]: And I do think it's that's probably the clearest way to look at him.
46:14
[SPEAKER_06]: Sting put out a song once called the Russians in nineteen eighty five that's basically made it really popular for Americans to start
46:21
[SPEAKER_06]: thinking of Russian people as people also with with problems.
46:26
[SPEAKER_06]: Averse one of the song in Europe and America, there's a growing feeling of hysteria, a condition to respond to all the threats in the rhetorical speeches of the Soviets.
46:35
[SPEAKER_06]: Mr. Krusheb says, we will bury you.
46:37
[SPEAKER_06]: I don't subscribe to this point of view.
46:39
[SPEAKER_06]: It would be such an ignorant thing to do if the Russians love their children too.
46:43
[SPEAKER_06]: How can I save my little boy from Oppenheimer's deadly toy?
46:46
[SPEAKER_06]: There's no monopoly of common sense on either side of the political fence.
46:49
[SPEAKER_06]: So it goes on.
46:50
[SPEAKER_06]: So it became kind of an interesting trope to watch Colossus represent that ideal in American common greeting audiences.
46:56
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay, we're gonna conclude our conversation about Colossus with the discussion of our final point, which is Colossus as a powerhouse.
47:03
[SPEAKER_06]: The word Colossus is defined as a huge statue or something likened to a huge statue in size or importance, like a Colossus bureaucracy, for example.
47:12
[SPEAKER_06]: Kyoto Rasputin himself has been a pretty easily defined mutant power, but that doesn't make him uncomplicated.
47:18
[SPEAKER_06]: Called one of the most powerful beings on the planet, Colossus is immune with quote.
47:22
[SPEAKER_06]: The power to convert the tissues of his entire body into an organic metal substance that appears to be analogous to Osmium and carbon steel.
47:31
[SPEAKER_06]: Simple enough, he is living metal.
47:33
[SPEAKER_06]: While in this metal form, he does not need to eat or breathe, but he still can.
47:37
[SPEAKER_06]: He can stay this way for days.
47:38
[SPEAKER_06]: He's crazy strong in this form, crazy durable, crazy fast, crazy dense.
47:43
[SPEAKER_06]: More detailed write-ups of these powers will start talking about the exchange of atoms or theorized that the metal atoms come from another dimension.
47:49
[SPEAKER_06]: We're going to keep us simple here.
47:50
[SPEAKER_06]: So jump out of a plane, land without harm.
47:53
[SPEAKER_06]: punch everything and sometimes throw your shorter heavy teammate with metal bones into the atmosphere and call it a fastball special.
47:59
[SPEAKER_06]: The most infamous and effective example of a mutant circuit.
48:03
[SPEAKER_06]: It's the limitations of this power, however, that I think are really interesting.
48:06
[SPEAKER_06]: His metal form doesn't need to breathe, but his flesh form does.
48:09
[SPEAKER_06]: He's been trapped for extended periods of time as metal, like that time he was on Australia and now back.
48:15
[SPEAKER_06]: What he's in the sun too long and someone touches him and his metal is super heated.
48:18
[SPEAKER_06]: He's also been trapped as human for extended periods of time.
48:21
[SPEAKER_06]: He's vulnerable to fire in either form, like pyros flames or wisdom's hot plasma knives, and when his body gets mutated or melted, he has to be operated on in metal form to avoid injury by changing back into human form.
48:36
[SPEAKER_06]: He's vulnerable to vibranium and adamantium.
48:39
[SPEAKER_06]: One time he possessed the Phoenix Force, and his metal transformations would be sporadic and partial, kind of moving around his body randomly.
48:46
[SPEAKER_06]: When he was powered up by Citerac, his strength increased, fueled by mystic rage, and his powers got a magic boost, and he was a juggernaut who kept mutating into further and further demonic forms.
48:58
[SPEAKER_06]: And there was another time while he served briefly as a horseman of apocalypse, where he could manipulate any of the metal in his flesh, kind of like Mercury the character, transforming his metal into swords, blunt objects, and ability that we've kind of seen in his most recent identity as tank in the new X-Force, although I believe in the most recent Hellfire visual comic.
49:18
[SPEAKER_06]: They said that those were like little things he wore on his hands to allow him to manipulate the metal form around.
49:24
[SPEAKER_06]: And again, we have that old right.
49:26
[SPEAKER_03]: Sound in the video game where he would like light up and the energy from his transformation would stun the people around him So there's all kinds of crazy cool things it destroys everything I mean like that that move in the game was ultimate you just you get in swarmed and you have an area of effect attack that you can use with a guy that just punches people I just I love the simplicity of the the look and idea yeah, he
49:50
[SPEAKER_03]: gets stronger.
49:51
[SPEAKER_03]: He gets bigger.
49:52
[SPEAKER_03]: He grows physically in size.
49:54
[SPEAKER_03]: And the details that have been added over time that add more complexity about what what affects him, what he can withstand.
50:01
[SPEAKER_03]: I just feel like it starts with such a base and then gets deeper kind of like the character himself.
50:07
[SPEAKER_03]: I like
50:07
[SPEAKER_04]: how Colossus sort of evolved over time.
50:10
[SPEAKER_04]: I think, and I think this comes mostly from the art of Chris Bachelot and Joe Madderera in the nineties, where instead of just being like a guy who's slightly taller than normal and happens to be metal, like he kind of physically transforms into this giant tank of a man.
50:28
[SPEAKER_04]: who's seriously bulky and takes up a bit.
50:31
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, it's helped size proportions, basically.
50:33
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know, I just think that that's, that's a look that has worked for him and that's, it's why that has sort of like carried on and seems to just keep getting exaggerated more and more as, as time goes on in the comics.
50:44
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay, I'm going to toss a random relationship out of each of you.
50:46
[SPEAKER_06]: There's no pre-warning here.
50:47
[SPEAKER_06]: Glossus is not a character you think of having a lot of emotional depth unless it's a character like Kitty, but I'm going to toss a Colossus friendship at each of you and then let me just hear some of your general thoughts.
50:57
[SPEAKER_06]: Harry, what are your thoughts on Colossus and Storm?
50:59
[SPEAKER_06]: Their friendship is actually kind of cute because like
51:02
[SPEAKER_07]: Again, classes such as softly and I'll and they're both from different parts of the world.
51:07
[SPEAKER_07]: They have never really been well, I can't say that Lauren has never been on American soil, but she was mostly raised outside of America.
51:14
[SPEAKER_07]: So it's very interesting to see these two foreigners kind of be together in regards to their friendship.
51:20
[SPEAKER_06]: They call their like brother and sister, which I love.
51:22
[SPEAKER_07]: they relate to one another in that way.
51:24
[SPEAKER_07]: And I think that actually has kind of strength in their relationship in a lot of ways being able to have that kind of brother sister rapport in Syrian elements.
51:32
[SPEAKER_06]: Derek, your thoughts on Charles Xavier and Colossus.
51:36
[SPEAKER_05]: Charles is really the like the big boss and Peter seems to respect authority and that lasts up until
51:46
[SPEAKER_05]: Elyana dies and the losses is not the kind to have so many doubts about his leaders unless they really make this and at that point that Elyana dies and nobody was able to save her and stuff like that that move away from Xavier and towards making Magneto is is just it's in some way shocking it's it's the story of a leader and a soldier when the soldier loses his faith in the leader
52:10
[SPEAKER_06]: Justin thoughts on Colossus and Magneto.
52:13
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like a battering ram, just like a big ol' bullet shot through the sky.
52:17
[SPEAKER_03]: I've like that.
52:19
[SPEAKER_03]: That is the image that you get of, like, why have you sent these metal men to fight Magneto Charles?
52:24
[SPEAKER_03]: What have you done?
52:25
[SPEAKER_03]: You're literally just throwing things at him that he can very, really throw back at you.
52:29
[SPEAKER_03]: I love, I love Colossus as an alcoholic.
52:31
[SPEAKER_03]: I love the idea of him losing faith in saying, well, let's try the opposite.
52:36
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, let's just, let's just see what the opposition has to say.
52:40
[SPEAKER_03]: And if there's anything that we can do, because I can't say that I wouldn't follow a magneto as well.
52:45
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's hard.
52:46
[SPEAKER_06]: Tristan, I'm gonna give you three Colossus Wolverine and Knight Crawler.
52:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, right.
52:51
[SPEAKER_06]: You're going to give me a three, seven.
52:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, three of them together.
52:54
[SPEAKER_02]: I love my drunk uncles.
52:56
[SPEAKER_02]: I will fight and defend my drunk uncle and both.
52:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Love it when they get into bar fights.
53:01
[SPEAKER_06]: Lossus and Nightcrawler are like the two people Wolverine will let himself relax around a little bit in a very interesting way, which I love.
53:08
[SPEAKER_06]: And finally, Rob, what are your thoughts on the connection between Colossus and Pete Wisdom?
53:12
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, well, you know, I haven't actually got to the Pete Wisdom chunk of my Excalibur reread yet, but I mean,
53:21
[SPEAKER_04]: Do they have a relationship?
53:23
[SPEAKER_04]: It's basically classes just shows up and beats the hell out of them.
53:27
[SPEAKER_06]: But then we're from Hot Nives.
53:28
[SPEAKER_06]: Colossus is spine.
53:29
[SPEAKER_06]: So it's fine.
53:31
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
53:32
[SPEAKER_04]: I guess they get their good legs in.
53:33
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, this is not a great moment for Peter.
53:37
[SPEAKER_04]: I like this is a scene where, you know, Warren Ellis is writing this to make everyone clear that like, yeah, no Colossus is fully insane.
53:47
[SPEAKER_04]: in this moment.
53:48
[SPEAKER_04]: He basically brutally attacks a guy because he's dating Kitty and because Colossus is jealous about this relationship that never existed between them, that he still thinks that Kitty is his property or what have you.
54:03
[SPEAKER_04]: When literally the last time that Kitty and Peter saw each other was Colossus saying, like, I'm done with you.
54:11
[SPEAKER_04]: blind to me, and I'm never going to talk to you again or trust you again.
54:15
[SPEAKER_04]: That's the end of fatal attractions that I'm thinking of there.
54:18
[SPEAKER_06]: Again, we love to test this character's heart.
54:21
[SPEAKER_06]: But yeah, crazy glasses is the whole different thing.
54:23
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
54:24
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
54:24
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, like the fact that like they still manage to cooperate for another like thirty odd issues of Excalibur, I think speaks to Pete Wisdom as a character more than it does to Peter.
54:36
[SPEAKER_06]: The losses comes back from space and finds his old girlfriend that he wants to rekindle his relationship, dating a guy that's twice as old, that's a chain-smoking, like British secret agent.
54:44
[SPEAKER_06]: There's swears all the time.
54:45
[SPEAKER_06]: It's hilarious to me.
54:48
[SPEAKER_06]: Well, with that, ladies and gentlemen, we're going to commence with the trial of Piotr Rasputin.
54:53
[SPEAKER_06]: I hope you're capturing a certain kind of energy as we're talking about this character.
54:57
[SPEAKER_06]: We started by saying there's not a lot there, but he's actually got a ton of depth.
55:00
[SPEAKER_06]: And I really, really enjoy the way he approaches the world.
55:03
[SPEAKER_06]: In each section, I have assigned one Jerry member to give a prosecution and a defense on a particular section of Colossus's history.
55:10
[SPEAKER_06]: Afterward, we will each be voting using a ranking score from zero to five, taking a final score at the end.
55:16
[SPEAKER_06]: Zero would imply complete innocence, five complete evil.
55:20
[SPEAKER_06]: You get to mark those numbers, however you like on that ranking.
55:23
[SPEAKER_06]: Trialplete one, we are calling the executioner.
55:26
[SPEAKER_06]: The assign jury member here is Tristan Pongren, and the key issues are uncanny X-Men, one, twenty-eight, two, eleven, and two, thirty, two, three, four.
55:34
[SPEAKER_06]: Though Colossus generally exercises restraint in combat, even during high stakes missions, and even against some of the most evil men in the world, there have been times when he's used his powers to kill.
55:44
[SPEAKER_06]: When the mutant proteus, the young teenage son of Moira McTaggart, awoke from a coma and began lashing out at the world with his powers, the X-Men respond to doing their best to minimize human casualties.
55:54
[SPEAKER_06]: Kevin, in our proteus, inhabited the body of his birth father, Joe McTaggart, and a number of the X-Men, including Wolverine, Cyclops, and Havic, used deadly force on Joe, who began taking on the form of kind of a rotting zombie.
56:06
[SPEAKER_06]: To save Moira,
56:07
[SPEAKER_06]: Piotr threw Joe against the wall destroying the body of the corpse, and then resulting in the young proteus being in only his energy form, which Colossus knew was vulnerable to his own steel form.
56:18
[SPEAKER_06]: Pushing through a mental assault as he called the boy evil, Colossus drove his fists into proteus's form, seemingly killing the boy as his essence was scattered throughout the world.
56:27
[SPEAKER_06]: Colossus comforted Moira later and received praise from his teammates for his actions.
56:31
[SPEAKER_06]: Much later, after a peaceful morning of farming with his teammates, Colossus and the X-Men responded to the deadly threat of the marauders who were slaughtering innocent and helpless mutants in the more like tunnels in a massacre.
56:43
[SPEAKER_06]: After witnessing the terrible devastation, and after taking a bad beating from Harpoon, Piotr was attacked by a rip-tide.
56:49
[SPEAKER_06]: Who flung the keratin stars into Peter's meat, a metal flesh, before Peter reached forward, gripped riptides neck, and broke it with a simple squeeze.
56:59
[SPEAKER_06]: Crack, then he yelled that Harpoon would die next.
57:02
[SPEAKER_06]: Shortly after this, by the way, Colossus collapsed temporarily paralyzed and badly hurt from his wounds.
57:07
[SPEAKER_06]: Much later, again, when the brood infected several mutants on earth, taking over their forms and going out to lay eggs in more mutants, colossus in the X-Men fought them, and colossus wondered about the ethics of using lethal force against their foes, wondering if the hosts of the brood could be considered dead or not.
57:24
[SPEAKER_06]: The X-Men began using lethal force altogether as a team, and colossus himself killed the brood mutant hybrid with the hand with his bare hands.
57:32
[SPEAKER_06]: Let me turn it over to Tristan.
57:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd like to approach these cases one by one, so they are three separate murders.
57:42
[SPEAKER_02]: They all kind of require a separate little looking at.
57:44
[SPEAKER_02]: So, starting with the murder of produs from the defense.
57:49
[SPEAKER_02]: This issue, classes is placed in the middle of a tragedy.
57:53
[SPEAKER_02]: The moral calculus of the situation is spelled out clearly.
57:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Proteus is a risk of causing death on a massive scale, and if not for the heroes' direct intervention in several instances throughout the story, civilians would have died.
58:06
[SPEAKER_02]: So even Prodius's mother Moira has decided that because of this, there's no option but to end Prodius's life.
58:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Moira says, I know now it won't really be over until my boy is dead.
58:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Then Colossus is only given a brief window of time in which to affect grodius.
58:23
[SPEAKER_02]: The only correct solution for him was to take it to protect the lives of everyone around.
58:29
[SPEAKER_02]: be a better Batman than Batman and actually kill the Joker.
58:32
[SPEAKER_02]: But more than that, Colossus was psychically assaulted by Prodius in this issue and in that moment caught a glimpse into Prodius's mind and knew directly from the source that Prodius was evil and moreover that he had intended to be evil since he was a child that he had felt his power and that he had intended to use it from when he was very young.
58:52
[SPEAKER_02]: So the idea that he gets from inside Prodius's head is that Prodius was born evil.
58:58
[SPEAKER_02]: This story clearly loves, it leaves Colossus no alternative, which is that, Prodius has to die, which in over to the prosecution.
59:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Though Prodius was far from a saint, he was a confused child, horribly mistreated and isolated throughout his entire life.
59:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Prodius was placed ineffectively in solitary confinement, which is torture.
59:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Crime committed against humanity that has a proven track record of leaving people who undergo a traumatized, Prodius clearly hates himself and is not the most objective judge of himself.
59:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Classes committed a crime of negligence in this issue.
59:31
[SPEAKER_02]: You took the word of a teenager and distressed that they're nothing but evil and they see no hope selves.
59:37
[SPEAKER_02]: If you hear that from a teenager, I hope that you would recognize someone is digging themselves a hole for themselves and that it's imperative for you as a responsible adult to help them out of it.
59:48
[SPEAKER_02]: But classes kept big.
59:49
[SPEAKER_02]: skipping ahead to uncanny x been to eleven where classes kills rip tied a member of the marauders this is a fairly big and heavy issue the marauders were committing genocide upon the more locks and mutants who live below New York
1:00:05
[SPEAKER_02]: They were doing that for no well-described reason.
1:00:07
[SPEAKER_02]: The Marauders were shown on-screen killing non-combatants, including explicitly the elderly and children for no other stated reason than that their mucus.
1:00:16
[SPEAKER_02]: It is explicitly compared in terms of the genocide by Med Nido and several other characters.
1:00:22
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the members of in the process of murdering children tells them that their deaths is justified, quote, because they were born.
1:00:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's enough.
1:00:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't feel comfortable making a prosecution case for that particular issue.
1:00:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I know that trial system only works with defenders and prosecutors making the best cases backs allow, but honest for this one, I got nothing and all good conscious.
1:00:44
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think I could make a case against elasses doing what he did here, which is killing reptile to member of the morrowers.
1:00:50
[SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I'll chime in just to give you a help there could he have hit Rift that on the head, disabling him without killing him and still been effective, but you're about I agree with you, you're fine.
1:01:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there is maybe a case that being super heroes, they've deployed non lethal force against genocidal villains before, but I've got to be honest, Rift I've got what the circumstances call for.
1:01:10
[SPEAKER_02]: On Kenny Xman, two thirty two through two thirty four is a little more complicated and that depicts the Xman against the brood, who have taken over the bodies of several innocent civilians, including ambulance driver.
1:01:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, this is his actual name, Harry Palmer.
1:01:25
[SPEAKER_06]: And his wife Rosie.
1:01:27
[SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
1:01:28
[SPEAKER_02]: They expend including classes debate throughout the story whether the original person is still underneath a brood body and after careful study they come to the conclusion that those individuals were murdered by the brood infested their body that in killing the the body that the brood has inhabited they are not in fact killing the the person to inhabit it
1:01:49
[SPEAKER_02]: In the middle of a pitched battle in which millions and millions of lives hang in the balance, Colossus did kill one of the blue while Wippen was about murder long shot.
1:01:58
[SPEAKER_02]: But switching over to the prosecution, this story is a little more nuanced than either the X-Men or the court classes would happen believe there are.
1:02:06
[SPEAKER_02]: no more dangerous narratives than the stories that we tell ourselves to justify the things that we do.
1:02:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And the X-Men in this story, I don't think actually have the insight that they needed to tell whether the original person was alive or not.
1:02:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Even their psychic powers, those that have them don't draw from conclusions on that.
1:02:23
[SPEAKER_02]: But we, as readers, do kind of know on the page that
1:02:27
[SPEAKER_02]: The original Harry Palmer was still inhabiting his stolen body.
1:02:31
[SPEAKER_02]: And we know that because we see thoughts from Harry's perspective, actually on the page in thought bubbles, the experiment classes can't see.
1:02:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Ultimately, I think the story from the prosecution's perspective, I think the story, the experiment and classes tell themselves about Harry is self-serving and supported by insufficient evidence.
1:02:52
[SPEAKER_02]: And it may still have ended up being necessary to kill the brood victims.
1:02:56
[SPEAKER_02]: But by inventing this justification that the person underneath that the original victim of the brood of was was gone.
1:03:03
[SPEAKER_02]: They've opened themselves up to moral hazard for future crimes.
1:03:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And they owe it to themselves to look at the truth squarely.
1:03:11
[SPEAKER_02]: At the original victim of the brood might in fact still be underneath it.
1:03:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Rather than pulling themselves a story to make themselves feel better.
1:03:18
[SPEAKER_06]: brilliant job, I think one of the big things that I mentioned this early on in the trial is this character is constantly showing restraint, right?
1:03:24
[SPEAKER_06]: What he could be capable of if he became willing to hurt.
1:03:28
[SPEAKER_06]: But in each of these cases, it does seem to be that he's made a hard choice to preserve life, even after he's seen himself and his teammates, a harm, as a result.
1:03:38
[SPEAKER_03]: So many of these victims, so many of these people up against Colossus.
1:03:41
[SPEAKER_03]: I find it hard to, you know, the brood.
1:03:43
[SPEAKER_03]: Joe McTaggart was a terrible man.
1:03:46
[SPEAKER_03]: The proteus was uncontrollable.
1:03:48
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, like, it's, I don't want to even, even rip-tied.
1:03:51
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, like, are we better off without them?
1:03:53
[SPEAKER_03]: Did he go a little too far?
1:03:54
[SPEAKER_03]: Could there have been some middle ground?
1:03:55
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, but is anyone really losing sleep over rip-tied dying?
1:03:59
[SPEAKER_03]: Plus wasn't he a clone?
1:04:00
[SPEAKER_03]: What was any a sinister lab rat?
1:04:01
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, they didn't even real.
1:04:02
[SPEAKER_03]: Kill them all.
1:04:03
[SPEAKER_06]: We can blame sinister Anmoira for large sections of this history.
1:04:06
[SPEAKER_06]: Maybe even Xavier, a little bit.
1:04:09
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's always blemixing here for everything.
1:04:11
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a good default stance.
1:04:14
[SPEAKER_06]: Well, let's go ahead and vote in this section.
1:04:16
[SPEAKER_06]: Let me hear about zero from five, although zero is a new category in this, hey?
1:04:20
[SPEAKER_06]: Yep.
1:04:21
[SPEAKER_06]: All right.
1:04:21
[SPEAKER_06]: And zero is completely blameless.
1:04:23
[SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
1:04:24
[SPEAKER_06]: And if you forgot, was Canadian, you just heard me A.
1:04:28
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to vote at one parent.
1:04:30
[SPEAKER_07]: I'm also voting a one.
1:04:32
[SPEAKER_07]: I feel like there is a lot of things that he came up against that kind of forced his hand in these situations.
1:04:37
[SPEAKER_03]: Just one from his well, he made the hard choice could have gotten a little softer if you wanted to zero, but yeah, that's super heroic, baby.
1:04:44
[SPEAKER_06]: I think a one is absolutely fair.
1:04:45
[SPEAKER_06]: These are all situations where he made careful decisions.
1:04:48
[SPEAKER_06]: And again, the restrained is impressive.
1:04:50
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to say zero.
1:04:51
[SPEAKER_06]: Glasses did no wrong here.
1:04:52
[SPEAKER_06]: One, I have a huge database of X-Men stories that I've written that will likely never be published, but one of them is the origin of those mutants that get infected by the brood, because we don't really know where they came from.
1:05:02
[SPEAKER_06]: When I have a whole story, so anyway, five out of thirty in section one, let's go to trial point two, which we are calling the acolyte.
1:05:08
[SPEAKER_06]: The Assyndry member here is Derek Konskin.
1:05:10
[SPEAKER_06]: The key issues are uncanny X-Men three, four, X-Men twenty, five, Excalibur seventy, one, uncanny X-Men three, fifteen, and Excalibur ninety, two.
1:05:19
[SPEAKER_06]: In a very brief amount of time, Peter went through a series of significant traumas.
1:05:24
[SPEAKER_06]: After faking his own death with the X-Men in Australia during which time he saw the evil that existed in his traumatized sister Iliana, Piotr passed through the siege perilous and began a new life as Peter Nicholas, a New York-based artist.
1:05:36
[SPEAKER_06]: After his memories returned, he discovered that his brother Mikhail was alive, but also was an insane supervillain who had killed many.
1:05:43
[SPEAKER_06]: He saw his country turn against him and murder his parents while he was on that mission in Russia,
1:05:48
[SPEAKER_06]: And Piotr learned that his sister, now age seven again, had contracted the legacy virus, and then he watched her die.
1:05:54
[SPEAKER_06]: Deepen his grief and growing increasingly aggressive, Colossus burned all of his paintings, and at Eliana's funeral he confronts it Xavier.
1:06:01
[SPEAKER_06]: When you asked me to leave the Oostortinsky Collective, you said, and I remember the words as if you said them yesterday.
1:06:07
[SPEAKER_06]: Power such as yours belongs to the world Peter, to be used for the good of all.
1:06:11
[SPEAKER_06]: On nothing more than your word I left my family, my life, and didn't look back.
1:06:16
[SPEAKER_06]: I thrilled to those words, Professor.
1:06:18
[SPEAKER_06]: They made me part of a larger whole.
1:06:20
[SPEAKER_06]: Never once did I falter, did I question the validity, the cost of your dream?
1:06:24
[SPEAKER_06]: No, Godspotten Xavier, I did not fail you.
1:06:27
[SPEAKER_06]: You and your dream failed me.
1:06:29
[SPEAKER_06]: Worst, it failed Eliana, and for that I will never forgive you.
1:06:33
[SPEAKER_06]: Magneto attacked the funeral, freezing all the X-Men in place, demanding to be heard about how mutants didn't have to abide by Xavier's dream.
1:06:39
[SPEAKER_06]: And when the X-Men fought back, Colossus surprised them all by turning against them, turning his back on his allies, his family, his home, and on the dream that he'd pledged himself to for many years.
1:06:49
[SPEAKER_06]: And let me tell you as a reader of the books at the time, this was a huge shock.
1:06:53
[SPEAKER_06]: He grew violent against his teammates and then pledged himself to Magneto's cause.
1:06:56
[SPEAKER_06]: When Magneto then attacked the electromagnetic spectrum of Earth from the orbiting Avalon, many humans were killed and the X-Men responded aggressively, desabling much of Avalon.
1:07:06
[SPEAKER_06]: Magneto ripped Wolverine's adamantium skeleton out and Xavier rendered Magneto brain dead.
1:07:11
[SPEAKER_06]: Colossus shocked the X-Men by choosing to stay among the satellites even after these deeply villainous act.
1:07:17
[SPEAKER_06]: Xavier determined that Colossus had betrayed him
1:07:19
[SPEAKER_06]: because he'd suffered brain damage during his time trapped in his metal form in the Australian outback.
1:07:25
[SPEAKER_06]: So Kitty lured Piotr to Earth using the premise that she might want to join him in avalan, and he shared with her his intentions of making the accolades better.
1:07:32
[SPEAKER_06]: But he soon realized that Kitty had betrayed him.
1:07:35
[SPEAKER_06]: After a fight with his former teammates, Colossus had any brain damage that was there, repaired by Xavier and Moira, but he still said his heart was broken and needed to be kept hard.
1:07:44
[SPEAKER_06]: He expressed that he wanted to try a new cause and he left his teammates again.
1:07:49
[SPEAKER_06]: Exodus then took over leadership of the acolytes, while Magneto remained non-verbal, and he had Neophyte, a teenage phasing mutant who had betrayed the team because of their brutality against humans, put on trial.
1:08:00
[SPEAKER_06]: Any order to Exodus ordered Emilio Vote to act as his prosecutor,
1:08:04
[SPEAKER_06]: and Colossus to act as his defense in kind of a mock trial.
1:08:07
[SPEAKER_06]: As Colossus worked out his own complex feelings about the competing dreams between Xavier and Magneto, he heavily advocated for the child, seemingly changing their verdict from death for Neophyte to banishment, while also isolating himself from the other more hard-lined accolades.
1:08:22
[SPEAKER_06]: Finally, after Avalon Fel, Colossus went to Excalibur and found Kitty, kissing Peter, Wisdom.
1:08:28
[SPEAKER_06]: Peotr attacked Wisdom with a fury, wounding the man, but ended up badly damaged himself due to the hot plasma knives that Wisdom used against him.
1:08:35
[SPEAKER_06]: Excalibur turned on Colossus, and Moira had to repair his spine.
1:08:39
[SPEAKER_06]: While Peter was in a cell, Kitty and Kurt both visited him and said they were ashamed of him.
1:08:44
[SPEAKER_06]: Colossus returned to the accolades once again as the mutants continued doing terrorist acts on earth against humans in the name of mutants, but eventually he joined Excalibur.
1:08:52
[SPEAKER_06]: Let me turn it over to Derek Huntskin.
1:08:54
[SPEAKER_05]: Peter Rasputin is a terrorist.
1:08:56
[SPEAKER_05]: This is indisputable and from the prosecution will prove this.
1:09:00
[SPEAKER_05]: He's guilty of being a member of an organized crime and terrorism group called Diacolates.
1:09:04
[SPEAKER_05]: Members of a terrorist group are liable for prosecution as terrorists based solely on the membership in their group.
1:09:10
[SPEAKER_05]: It doesn't matter if they're the bomber, the sniper, the driver, the doctor, or the cook.
1:09:15
[SPEAKER_05]: Any support of a terrorist group is a criminal offense.
1:09:17
[SPEAKER_05]: And at question and in this trial is only, is Peter Rasputin a member of the accolades.
1:09:23
[SPEAKER_05]: I submit that we have proof and it's undisputed that he joined dramatically publicly and with full conscience and unpurpose.
1:09:31
[SPEAKER_05]: He assisted in its functioning and after he left the accolades to Rasputin, he proceeded to mural and to try and murder a stranger he didn't know.
1:09:37
[SPEAKER_05]: Peter Rasputin should be convicted as a terrorist and face a lengthy prison sentence, the prosecution rest.
1:09:43
[SPEAKER_05]: The defense says that Peter Rasputin is no terrorist.
1:09:46
[SPEAKER_05]: He participated in no terrorist attacks.
1:09:48
[SPEAKER_05]: He gave no refuge to the accolades.
1:09:51
[SPEAKER_05]: He did not cloth or feed the Peter Rasputin is and has always been a hero.
1:09:55
[SPEAKER_05]: What he did do was join them on their orbital base to try to persuade them to follow more meaningful, peaceful path.
1:10:01
[SPEAKER_05]: going so far as to risk his life defending someone who could not stomach their brutality.
1:10:06
[SPEAKER_05]: The charges of association by guilt do not stand.
1:10:09
[SPEAKER_05]: It is fact that during this time, he was suffering from an untreated head injury, which impared some of his cognition.
1:10:14
[SPEAKER_05]: It's also fact that during this time, he was traumatized by a grief attached to the failure of Xavier's dream.
1:10:19
[SPEAKER_05]: Being a mutant cost, Mr. Epiden, his mother, his father, and his sister.
1:10:23
[SPEAKER_05]: Was it any surprise that a farmer and artist Hiro would try to help these warring sides find another way, so this doesn't happen to anyone
1:10:32
[SPEAKER_05]: More so, Kuzlaw is exactly where we're using.
1:10:34
[SPEAKER_05]: International law is ill-equipped, and no national law applies in Earth's orbit.
1:10:39
[SPEAKER_05]: This court has no jurisdiction over my client, and on the charge of attempted murder, this is nonsense.
1:10:45
[SPEAKER_05]: Peter S. Buton and Peter Wisdom heroes both unwisely left into an unintended conflict of tragic, friendly fire.
1:10:52
[SPEAKER_05]: One while traumatized, one while heavily inebriated.
1:10:55
[SPEAKER_05]: When the circumstances were clarified, Peter Rasputin accepted for responsibility, he expressed regret and remorse, and he agreed to remain in confinement for traditional counseling and treatment.
1:11:05
[SPEAKER_05]: While tragic, if you're to try and charge Mr. Apputin with a crime over this particular incident, you must submit similar charges for every superhero unearth from Thor to Captain America to Scarlet Witch to Ironman.
1:11:16
[SPEAKER_05]: All of them have been in fights with other heroes at other times, the defense rests.
1:11:21
[SPEAKER_06]: This is a section of history that's so interesting, because, again, I was reading it live as a reader.
1:11:25
[SPEAKER_06]: Part of what makes this concerning, and we didn't cover this in the right up, is before Peter joined the accolades.
1:11:29
[SPEAKER_06]: They had done some really awful things.
1:11:31
[SPEAKER_06]: There's a story where they attack a school to try to kill a mutant with Down syndrome.
1:11:35
[SPEAKER_06]: They murder humans, uh, while calling them names.
1:11:39
[SPEAKER_06]: There's like hate crimes committed against humans.
1:11:41
[SPEAKER_06]: There's some interesting things, but Peter chooses to join them anyway, having kind of lost the idea.
1:11:46
[SPEAKER_06]: So, is Magneto right?
1:11:49
[SPEAKER_06]: Oh, he's the primary question.
1:11:51
[SPEAKER_06]: Derek, was it fun for you to revisit these stories at the classes as an accolade?
1:11:55
[SPEAKER_05]: It was super interesting, so I reread the seventies and eighties, X-Men, a fair bit, but nineties X-Men, I've not seen since my first or second reads when I originally bought them off the stands and oh my god, the amount of words.
1:12:07
[SPEAKER_05]: I thought, right, Tom, that's wrote a lot of words.
1:12:09
[SPEAKER_05]: These people holding, jueling soliloquies all over the place that they're not even talking to each other.
1:12:13
[SPEAKER_06]: Although we left out the time Colossus fought cable with the accolades.
1:12:17
[SPEAKER_06]: That's a whole story too.
1:12:19
[SPEAKER_06]: We didn't cover it comprehensively.
1:12:21
[SPEAKER_03]: I love the idea of him being disillusioned.
1:12:24
[SPEAKER_03]: Not feeling as though the path that he'd been on was achieving the result that he needed that he wanted for his people, for his family and to explore the other option.
1:12:34
[SPEAKER_03]: The doubling down when, you know, kill those people ripped the adamantium from the skeleton of his dear friend and clustered
1:12:42
[SPEAKER_03]: like, no, I can fix them.
1:12:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I can I can be on the inside and change these villains is a little misguided.
1:12:48
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like I, you know, I'm conflicted here because it's cool.
1:12:51
[SPEAKER_03]: I love the outfit.
1:12:52
[SPEAKER_03]: I love just making him try something else, but knowing full well who the accolades are, what they do and what they continue to do even if he's not participating.
1:13:02
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like it's a bad look.
1:13:04
[SPEAKER_06]: but the very simple philosophy of the Xavier doesn't have it, right?
1:13:07
[SPEAKER_06]: There has to be another way, and this is the only option open to me.
1:13:10
[SPEAKER_06]: I get it.
1:13:11
[SPEAKER_06]: Cause as well as working, things are not working right now.
1:13:16
[SPEAKER_05]: I get it.
1:13:17
[SPEAKER_05]: To Justin's point, I was thinking too about that, like, what's the alternative or they're just gonna keep on punching each other?
1:13:23
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, are they gonna punch sense into the other person?
1:13:25
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think it's an interesting and very Peter move to try to understand and be with the other and try and communicate and be, like,
1:13:34
[SPEAKER_05]: another way.
1:13:35
[SPEAKER_04]: One of the things about Clausus's decision to join the accolades is that he doesn't like he does yeah he does start wearing the accolate uniform and everything but the invitation that Megito is making at Elgano's funeral isn't come join the accolades while we go commit more blind murders of
1:13:53
[SPEAKER_04]: humans all over the world that Magneto is literally just setting up Avalon as like a mutant island in space.
1:14:01
[SPEAKER_04]: He's like, let's go live a mutant separatist life.
1:14:04
[SPEAKER_04]: We will we're just gonna abandon Earth and not have to deal with humans for rest of
1:14:10
[SPEAKER_04]: forever.
1:14:10
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's only after the humans respond by like saying, well, if you're not going to come back, we're going to try and make it impossible for you to come back that Magneto responds so forcefully with the EM wave.
1:14:22
[SPEAKER_04]: So Colossus isn't responding to an invitation to join the terrorist group.
1:14:26
[SPEAKER_04]: He's responding to an invitation to like join a space resort.
1:14:30
[SPEAKER_06]: I also really hate the story where they're like, oh, he had brain damage.
1:14:33
[SPEAKER_06]: And that's why he made these independent decisions from our dream.
1:14:36
[SPEAKER_06]: We'll hate that every time.
1:14:38
[SPEAKER_06]: So let's go ahead and vote in this section, Colossus as an accolade.
1:14:42
[SPEAKER_07]: Thank for this one.
1:14:43
[SPEAKER_07]: I might have to give him, I'm thinking of two, maybe a three.
1:14:47
[SPEAKER_07]: And it's only because circumstances seem that for one thing, he was dealing with grief, a heavy grief of losing his sister in service of a man that he trusted for so long.
1:14:56
[SPEAKER_07]: But for two, also the brain damage, which I feel like, I don't know, I feel like it's caught out at the end of the day.
1:15:03
[SPEAKER_03]: Two or three.
1:15:04
[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I'm gonna go with three.
1:15:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it was in the same mindset, squishy too is like, my first reaction was like, okay, no, he's in there, he's doing some stuff.
1:15:12
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you want to be light on him because of all the things that he's going through because of the way that he approaches it.
1:15:18
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think I'm going to lean to crazy.
1:15:21
[SPEAKER_06]: It's a zero for me here.
1:15:22
[SPEAKER_06]: I think he is exercising a significant amount of wisdom.
1:15:26
[SPEAKER_06]: Let's see what we can do from within.
1:15:28
[SPEAKER_06]: Let me try to get to know these other people and these other ideals.
1:15:31
[SPEAKER_06]: And I don't think he really commits any crimes except for that fight with Peter wisdom.
1:15:36
[SPEAKER_04]: I kind of you know, that's superhero antics who got hurt at the end at first I was thinking this is another case of like this is a zero for me But the more I think about it the more I really do think that Peter bears some responsibility here not just because you know he's Associated with these athletes, but like he knows that these are really bad people who should be brought to justice like
1:15:58
[SPEAKER_04]: There's no real scale in which you can look at the act that the Fabian Cortez accolades have committed up to this point as being any kind of justified legitimate targets for mutant liberation.
1:16:12
[SPEAKER_04]: They went to hospitals and murdered people who were like second dying.
1:16:16
[SPEAKER_04]: They blew up like school buses full of children, which these are not good people and they should have been brought to justice.
1:16:22
[SPEAKER_04]: I didn't give this one a to it.
1:16:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to give this one a three and it could even be counted into giving it a four and that sounds harsh because he was clearly going through a lot of trauma and disillusionment tragedy beyond my personal capacity to comprehend it honestly, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still his responsibility to deal with it in ways that don't endanger and inflict that same trauma upon other people and associating with the mass murderers is
1:16:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Not the way to do that.
1:16:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I also think there's a little bit of a false dichotomy that we fell into, whereas if if Charles Xavier's path forward was not working for him, if he was dissolutioned in it, it does not necessarily follow them that the act of lights and then we know we're the only other path.
1:17:07
[SPEAKER_05]: I think Rob made a really strong prosecution case, but at the same time, I'm still persuaded that even if he's misguided about joining them in the hope that he's going to be able to change them.
1:17:20
[SPEAKER_05]: I still think there's an innocence to his intention.
1:17:23
[SPEAKER_05]: There's a purity to what he wants to accomplish and so on.
1:17:26
[SPEAKER_05]: And so I think I'm going to be at a one.
1:17:29
[SPEAKER_06]: about a thirty in that section that will take us to our next section, trial point three, the rage machine.
1:17:34
[SPEAKER_06]: The Ascensory member here is Haram Scaram.
1:17:36
[SPEAKER_06]: The key issues are uncanny xman, five forty two and forty three, and uncanny xman volume two, numbers eight to eleven, fifteen, eighteen, and twenty.
1:17:45
[SPEAKER_06]: As the events of fear itself unfolded, Kane Marko, the juggernaut, was granted power by the serpent of Asgard, becoming the indestructible cliff, who began causing harm all over the planet and overwhelming the X-Men.
1:17:57
[SPEAKER_06]: Magic, who was taken over by her dark child side at the time after being resurrected, took elossus to the crimson cosmos in order to petition Citerac for the power to fight back against Quarth.
1:18:08
[SPEAKER_06]: And Peotor became the new avatar of Rage, the juggernaut.
1:18:11
[SPEAKER_06]: He attacked Cain Marco as Kourth destroying massive amounts of property across California.
1:18:16
[SPEAKER_06]: It's a very thing versus Hulk fight here.
1:18:18
[SPEAKER_06]: And Piotr could feel his humanity slipping into rage.
1:18:21
[SPEAKER_06]: As the battle ended, and Piotr saw Kitty Hartbroken about his new state.
1:18:25
[SPEAKER_06]: Piotr viewed the devastation he'd caused and called it the best art he'd ever made.
1:18:30
[SPEAKER_06]: This is important to note, I think during this time, this is during the mutants as an endangered species era where there's only a few hundred left on the planet and the threats were ever increasing.
1:18:40
[SPEAKER_06]: Now, part of a powerful new X-Men team, Colossus continued giving into his rage and trying to channel it into acts of heroism.
1:18:47
[SPEAKER_06]: After killing a lot of innocent sea creatures, the juggernaut form continued to mutate, sprouting an exoskeleton, and Piotr turned to his sister in a moment of weakness and said snowflego snowflego what is happening to me.
1:18:59
[SPEAKER_06]: She says, hold on to that me.
1:19:01
[SPEAKER_06]: You are changed by experience.
1:19:02
[SPEAKER_06]: The hand of Citerac is upon you, but the you is there.
1:19:05
[SPEAKER_06]: No matter what horrors you face, you are still you.
1:19:09
[SPEAKER_06]: Trust me at times like this, it can be all that keeps you together.
1:19:12
[SPEAKER_06]: You are still you.
1:19:13
[SPEAKER_06]: Never forget.
1:19:14
[SPEAKER_06]: Remember, and we haven't recounted the tragic history of Eliana as magic in this, but go look it up.
1:19:21
[SPEAKER_06]: It's a sweet pathos for this story.
1:19:23
[SPEAKER_06]: She touches him and he returns to his overladen colossus form, but later at war with the Avengers, Juggernaut embraces the mutation again and fights the Red Hulk, destroying entire ecosystems in the fight before he's defeated.
1:19:36
[SPEAKER_06]: Later after Peter got a fifth of the Phoenix Force, he helped transform some parts of the world into a
1:19:41
[SPEAKER_06]: Paradise, he then went to Sidorac asking to be released from the juggernaut power.
1:19:45
[SPEAKER_06]: Sidorac, listen to me, I carry your power, I also carry the power of Phoenix.
1:19:50
[SPEAKER_06]: And with it we have rebuilt the world, I know your desires, you crave only rubble, excommunicate you as you did my predecessor when he took another master.
1:19:58
[SPEAKER_06]: Sidorac replies, no.
1:19:59
[SPEAKER_06]: you will remain mine.
1:20:01
[SPEAKER_06]: Your recent backsliding aside, you have been my favorite avatar in thousands of years.
1:20:05
[SPEAKER_06]: Why do you think I've given you so much?
1:20:07
[SPEAKER_06]: Creatures like Kane spent most of their life slinking hiding from people like you.
1:20:11
[SPEAKER_06]: His offerings were like tiny bursts of light in the long night.
1:20:14
[SPEAKER_06]: But you heroes and your constant battles you destroy daily.
1:20:18
[SPEAKER_06]: Your offerings are like an eternal banquet.
1:20:21
[SPEAKER_06]: You brought me far more destruction that I could have ever hoped.
1:20:23
[SPEAKER_06]: Go with my blood red blessing.
1:20:26
[SPEAKER_06]: I will forgive your recent impiety and anticipation of what I'm sure the future holds.
1:20:31
[SPEAKER_06]: The Phoenix is the spirit of rebirth and destruction.
1:20:33
[SPEAKER_06]: Our desires are not incompatible.
1:20:36
[SPEAKER_06]: Back on Earth, Piotr's side, it was a four-lorn hope.
1:20:39
[SPEAKER_06]: We have turned Earth into a heaven, I was foolish to think that might extend to me.
1:20:43
[SPEAKER_06]: Later after losing the Phoenix, force Piotr deeply grieved in Siberia, I fought with the Phoenix I could transcend, be more than Citerax whispers, but it just gave me a wider palate.
1:20:53
[SPEAKER_06]: All the while when I was fighting, I was begging them to run.
1:20:56
[SPEAKER_06]: But all I was thinking was how beautiful their spilled brains would be.
1:20:59
[SPEAKER_06]: Thinking if I killed enough, I could paint the whole moon with their blood.
1:21:02
[SPEAKER_06]: I've hurt so many people.
1:21:04
[SPEAKER_06]: I've hurt everyone I've loved.
1:21:05
[SPEAKER_06]: I've hurt everybody.
1:21:06
[SPEAKER_06]: Everything I touch becomes ashes.
1:21:08
[SPEAKER_06]: Sister, I don't deserve to live.
1:21:10
[SPEAKER_06]: I am a monster.
1:21:11
[SPEAKER_06]: I am doomed.
1:21:13
[SPEAKER_06]: And Eliana responds.
1:21:15
[SPEAKER_06]: Finally, you were not like me.
1:21:17
[SPEAKER_06]: You loved me.
1:21:17
[SPEAKER_06]: You wanted to understand.
1:21:19
[SPEAKER_06]: You would never understand.
1:21:20
[SPEAKER_06]: Could never understand until you became a falling snowflake.
1:21:24
[SPEAKER_06]: There are no snowflakes in hell.
1:21:26
[SPEAKER_06]: So magic had orchestrated this entire thing to help you to understand what she had been through in her life.
1:21:32
[SPEAKER_06]: And as he raged, she disappeared.
1:21:34
[SPEAKER_06]: By the way, later, she used her powers and limbo to heal Piotr of the curse of the juggernaut.
1:21:38
[SPEAKER_06]: And he just, she disappeared and he said he'd kill her if he ever saw her again.
1:21:43
[SPEAKER_06]: Brilliant writing by Kieran Gillin, let me turn this over to Haram Scar.
1:21:47
[SPEAKER_07]: People of today's jury, the defense would like you to look at Peter.
1:21:50
[SPEAKER_07]: He can be defined clearly by one word loyalty, loyalty to the causes that he joins, loyalty to the morals that he lives by, loyalty to the people he was, and that loyalty comes with fault.
1:22:01
[SPEAKER_07]: Peter's loyalty was put to test in defense of utopia and defense of the last bastion of meat and safety.
1:22:06
[SPEAKER_07]: It's destruction threatened by an unstoppable force.
1:22:09
[SPEAKER_07]: They exhausted every effort that they could.
1:22:11
[SPEAKER_07]: in regards to the juggernaut, who is now empowered not only by Cedarac, but also the Serpent Courth's own powers, yet his path to destruction was clear.
1:22:20
[SPEAKER_07]: He was going towards haven for mutants society at this time when mutants population had dwindled so far.
1:22:26
[SPEAKER_07]: The only thing that Peter had on his mind was protecting his meat and population, but also protecting his sister.
1:22:32
[SPEAKER_07]: As she was the one who had initially given her body, offered her body as vessel for this power, for the power of sitraq, but he could not see his sister continue to go through this disruption.
1:22:43
[SPEAKER_07]: So he took it on.
1:22:44
[SPEAKER_07]: And as it means to keep Utopia safe to keep his sister safe, take them to corruption.
1:22:48
[SPEAKER_07]: He thought that he could handle that he thought against in the storm of his own mind.
1:22:52
[SPEAKER_07]: Only fine, the once of his now God, the cruelty that colors his actions, could not be resisted.
1:22:58
[SPEAKER_07]: Peter is an innocent in the situation in many ways.
1:23:01
[SPEAKER_07]: Again, he was at the whims of a God's nature at this time.
1:23:05
[SPEAKER_07]: He could not fight against what is a force so beyond his own fight against the urges that that brings, the violent urges that that brings.
1:23:13
[SPEAKER_07]: And yet he did in some situations, he tried to mitigate the destruction that this God would bring throughout his body.
1:23:20
[SPEAKER_07]: He did everything that he could, again, in protection of a mutant bastion of safety.
1:23:25
[SPEAKER_07]: And he even, during the time frame, that he was a vessel for the Phoenix Force, or therefore a part of it, he tried to correct these actions by, again, building a heaven here on Earth.
1:23:35
[SPEAKER_07]: in the form still if he told you, but still to try to make up for his actions taken, though that was not enough unfortunately.
1:23:42
[SPEAKER_07]: Again, he was at the control of a God.
1:23:45
[SPEAKER_07]: I think he mourns very much for the actions that he's taken.
1:23:48
[SPEAKER_07]: He understands the destruction that he brought.
1:23:50
[SPEAKER_07]: He understands that what he did can be considered infigivable, but let's look at the real villain that he would never expect in the story for him, and that would be his own sister.
1:24:00
[SPEAKER_07]: Having went ahead and wrought these machinations in order for him to see the world through her eyes.
1:24:06
[SPEAKER_07]: She did not think of the kind of damage that be done not only to the people that somehow came into the path of Peter, but to his own psyche, to his own morals.
1:24:17
[SPEAKER_07]: And this is where I say that he is loyal to a fault.
1:24:19
[SPEAKER_07]: He had so much trust in his little snowflake as he calls her.
1:24:23
[SPEAKER_07]: He had so much, he just wanted to protect her and she used that against him in the end of the day.
1:24:27
[SPEAKER_07]: This destruction is something that he would have never wrought.
1:24:30
[SPEAKER_07]: This choice of being this vessel is something that he would have never done if there was another option.
1:24:35
[SPEAKER_07]: And there was, as we seen, Eliana could have healed him at any time and she chose not to.
1:24:40
[SPEAKER_07]: She allowed for the bloodless of a god to run through her brother and end up causing him to make all this destruction.
1:24:46
[SPEAKER_07]: And therefore, I believe his innocence needs to be fought for as the persecution comes to the court.
1:24:52
[SPEAKER_07]: Peter seemed to have a little bit of control and insight into what he was doing.
1:24:57
[SPEAKER_07]: He even admitted himself that he wanted to paint the moon red during that time frame of the battle on the blue spot of the moon.
1:25:05
[SPEAKER_07]: Peter was not above making these choices.
1:25:07
[SPEAKER_07]: He very much decided upon violence in many, many aspects.
1:25:12
[SPEAKER_07]: He decided to fall corrupt to what's hit a rack brought him, to what's hit a rack used from him.
1:25:17
[SPEAKER_07]: He fell so easily into this violence because he had too much faith in his own values that he could fight against this.
1:25:24
[SPEAKER_07]: He had so much faith in being able to fight off these violent urges of this God.
1:25:28
[SPEAKER_07]: And yet, because of this, he had put so many lives into danger.
1:25:32
[SPEAKER_07]: The innocent secretures that we saw.
1:25:34
[SPEAKER_07]: Oh, not sure how innocent.
1:25:36
[SPEAKER_07]: I'm going to be honest because I'm looking, I was looking at the panel, not to want it though.
1:25:40
[SPEAKER_07]: And they definitely seem to have taken magic.
1:25:42
[SPEAKER_07]: But I digress.
1:25:43
[SPEAKER_07]: He decided to continue this violent path.
1:25:47
[SPEAKER_07]: It seems like he has weak will and maybe he shouldn't have taken this on.
1:25:50
[SPEAKER_07]: Maybe he should have just allowed his sister to go forth as she is stronger in these senses of mysticism of occultism in regards to handling somebody else's power.
1:25:59
[SPEAKER_07]: He had to have known this of his sister already.
1:26:02
[SPEAKER_07]: Hell, at the end of their story, when she declares him, he seemed to already have an intimate knowledge of that in some ways.
1:26:08
[SPEAKER_07]: Citerac even laid that out full for him before he took on the power.
1:26:13
[SPEAKER_07]: In many ways, Peter wrote destruction on his own terms.
1:26:17
[SPEAKER_07]: He knew what he was doing.
1:26:18
[SPEAKER_07]: He knew the path of this would take him on.
1:26:20
[SPEAKER_07]: And I think that honestly, he needs to rap for it.
1:26:23
[SPEAKER_07]: He needs to face the consequences for his action, because guilt is not enough of a consequence, prosecution risk.
1:26:29
[SPEAKER_06]: This is an interesting section because it's such deep character work in such a big backdrop of things happening.
1:26:35
[SPEAKER_06]: But he didn't kill anyone.
1:26:36
[SPEAKER_06]: Aaron, did I get that correct?
1:26:37
[SPEAKER_06]: We don't actually see him kill anyone.
1:26:39
[SPEAKER_06]: There's a lot of property destruction.
1:26:41
[SPEAKER_07]: We definitely don't see him kill anyone.
1:26:43
[SPEAKER_07]: I will say when I came down to the sea creatures, that's one thing.
1:26:47
[SPEAKER_07]: And I think we see them as kind of lesser than us.
1:26:49
[SPEAKER_07]: And I think this is also like a kind of a disconnect in this regard.
1:26:52
[SPEAKER_07]: Those sea creatures did have a certain sense of what's the word cognizance.
1:26:57
[SPEAKER_07]: to them.
1:26:57
[SPEAKER_07]: It's not like they didn't have any thought behind them.
1:27:00
[SPEAKER_07]: We knew that they had cognizance because we also seen name or talking, but they're clean, that negotiating, but they're clean at a point.
1:27:06
[SPEAKER_07]: Kissing, they're clean at a point.
1:27:08
[SPEAKER_06]: They were fucking.
1:27:09
[SPEAKER_06]: He was fucking an ugly scene.
1:27:10
[SPEAKER_06]: Well, it's the harsh word.
1:27:13
[SPEAKER_07]: But she must be beautiful in terms of her people.
1:27:17
[SPEAKER_07]: But there's definitely that cognitive disconnect in regards to if he killed anybody.
1:27:21
[SPEAKER_07]: Because we don't see those.
1:27:22
[SPEAKER_07]: We don't see the secretures as people really.
1:27:24
[SPEAKER_07]: We don't.
1:27:24
[SPEAKER_07]: But he definitely is not innocent in regards to the blood that he should even down it below in the ocean.
1:27:29
[SPEAKER_07]: When it comes to on land during his time frame being cigarettes vessel, there's not much destruction that I can say came from him in regards to what you expect from somebody who holds all of that power, who is the judge not.
1:27:42
[SPEAKER_07]: But also, this is also where I have a little bit of a hard time defending.
1:27:46
[SPEAKER_07]: And this is where the prosecution really comes in.
1:27:47
[SPEAKER_07]: Because if Kane Marko can control these at time, control his urge at time, if Kane Marko can make sure to kind of escue the sort of destruction that he brings, Peter should be able to, as well.
1:27:58
[SPEAKER_07]: But I guess this also kind of comes down to what kind of resilience that they both have in the Middle East.
1:28:03
[SPEAKER_06]: And the fact that he chose to stay in active combat at all, knowing that he's capable of tipping that direction is kind of what influences my thoughts here as well.
1:28:11
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay, sure any thoughts you have as we vote, but here in beautiful job, thank you.
1:28:15
[SPEAKER_03]: Centering the fact that he didn't kill anybody is great.
1:28:18
[SPEAKER_03]: The destruction of property is intense, sure.
1:28:20
[SPEAKER_03]: The influence of these powers, you know, sit or act, the Phoenix Force, the kind of, I think I'm going to go to again, I just, yeah.
1:28:27
[SPEAKER_06]: This one's a four for me.
1:28:29
[SPEAKER_06]: We have to hold him to a higher standard and I think he's capable of better.
1:28:32
[SPEAKER_06]: There's so much property distraction.
1:28:34
[SPEAKER_06]: It's crazy.
1:28:35
[SPEAKER_06]: Whole ecosystem is destroyed, right?
1:28:36
[SPEAKER_04]: Honestly, I don't have much problem with this whole thing.
1:28:40
[SPEAKER_04]: There's property destruction.
1:28:41
[SPEAKER_04]: That's Tuesday in the Marvel Universe.
1:28:43
[SPEAKER_04]: This is nothing here really strikes out of me.
1:28:47
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to give him a zero.
1:28:48
[SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
1:28:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Tristan and the Derek.
1:28:49
[SPEAKER_02]: I am also going to give him a zero.
1:28:51
[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of reverses our last last one.
1:28:55
[SPEAKER_02]: The mind control and mind influence stories are tricky for the trial format, which is unfortunate because it come up a lot and awful lot in the, in the experiment.
1:29:04
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think that classes is real error of judgment here was something we don't often see from him, which was, which is ego to them, thinking that he could handle becoming this, this locust of rage.
1:29:18
[SPEAKER_02]: found out that he thought he really thought he really couldn't.
1:29:21
[SPEAKER_05]: I think the argument that he's a pawn of cosmic powers and that he was manipulated by his sister is a very strong argument.
1:29:29
[SPEAKER_05]: At the same time, the property damage, I think we haven't talked yet about like how this affects insurance companies and their profits and their investors.
1:29:38
[SPEAKER_05]: I think the inflation and construction material and the shortage of materials is something that's really big.
1:29:43
[SPEAKER_05]: And I have to say that on the other side, it's really good for Canadian lumber and steel exports
1:29:48
[SPEAKER_05]: So it kind of comes out in a wash, but I think it's a complicated sort of equation.
1:29:53
[SPEAKER_05]: So I'm going to make it a one.
1:29:54
[SPEAKER_07]: Honestly, the tipping point for me was definitely knowing that Eliana manipulated the entire situation because she as we again, as we've seen, she could have healed him at any time from Citarax Corruption.
1:30:05
[SPEAKER_07]: This was just at the end of the hint taken on the power of Cedarac was a means to get it away from King Marco himself.
1:30:11
[SPEAKER_07]: And once it was away from them, she could have taken him into the dimension her dimension and healed him.
1:30:17
[SPEAKER_07]: But at the end of the day, she wanted him to see how she experienced soullessness during her time, how she is
1:30:25
[SPEAKER_07]: Not this pure snowflake that he sees, that he envisions her ass, that she is someone who is corrupted in her own way.
1:30:33
[SPEAKER_07]: She wanted her brother to relate to her in this way, but it was a very faulty way to go about things.
1:30:39
[SPEAKER_07]: And again, his loyalness to his sister, his love for his sister, really colored a lot of this action on taking this on.
1:30:47
[SPEAKER_07]: So I do believe that he doesn't have much guilt here,
1:30:51
[SPEAKER_07]: because again, machinations by his own sister and manipulation by a God who's all about bloodless and destruction.
1:30:58
[SPEAKER_07]: There's not much that he can do in that respect.
1:31:01
[SPEAKER_07]: And then also, you got the Phoenix on top of it, which is also working a lot of that too.
1:31:05
[SPEAKER_07]: So I'm gonna give him a solid one.
1:31:08
[SPEAKER_07]: The only reason that I go with one instead of the complete zero is because again, you thought that you could control this and it's obvious this was out of your death at the end of the day.
1:31:18
[SPEAKER_06]: I feel like I'm such a different place than you guys have mentioned.
1:31:21
[SPEAKER_06]: I love also.
1:31:22
[SPEAKER_06]: This gives us a score of eight out of thirty in this section.
1:31:24
[SPEAKER_06]: We'll go to trial point four.
1:31:26
[SPEAKER_06]: By the way, the line, there are no snowflakes in hell.
1:31:29
[SPEAKER_06]: Shep's kiss.
1:31:30
[SPEAKER_06]: It's so good.
1:31:30
[SPEAKER_06]: It's a great story.
1:31:31
[SPEAKER_06]: Trial point four, we're calling the Phoenix Five.
1:31:33
[SPEAKER_06]: The Assyngere member here is Rob Solerino.
1:31:35
[SPEAKER_06]: And the key issues we are focusing on are Avengers versus X-Men Five through Nine.
1:31:39
[SPEAKER_06]: And we're bringing the X-Men Fourteen.
1:31:41
[SPEAKER_06]: Although the Phoenix Five storyline goes across approximately three thousand comic books.
1:31:46
[SPEAKER_06]: The gift of the Phoenix was meant for her and not us.
1:31:49
[SPEAKER_06]: You people did something to it.
1:31:51
[SPEAKER_06]: And now she, now we are the Phoenix.
1:31:54
[SPEAKER_06]: When the Phoenix Force returned to Earth looking for hope summers, Iron Man built a machine that disrupted it during a massive battle between the Xmen and the Avengers over what to do with it.
1:32:03
[SPEAKER_06]: A long-side name or Emma Frost.
1:32:05
[SPEAKER_06]: magic and cyclops, Colossus received one fifth of the Phoenix Force.
1:32:09
[SPEAKER_06]: Now that he had the fifth of the power of a cosmic god able to create or destroy, the team called themselves the Phoenix Five and they begin to remake the world in their own image, working hard to solve the problems of the world, like reducing war, containing deadly weapons, curing illness and fixing world hunger.
1:32:25
[SPEAKER_06]: Utilizing the artifact to siege perilous, Colossus captured X and the electric Legion, turning the sentient villains into a power grid,
1:32:34
[SPEAKER_06]: for a section of the world, which I think is amazing.
1:32:39
[SPEAKER_06]: Their impact was immediately felt, but the heroes of the world recognized the threat of their absolute power and stood against them.
1:32:45
[SPEAKER_06]: The Phoenix five determined that they needed to end the threat of the Avengers completely, and then began taking weapons and resources from those heroes, locking them up without trials, while specifically seeking to end the threat of the Scarlet Witch, remembering the time that she nearly eliminated the mutant gene with Chaos Magic.
1:33:01
[SPEAKER_06]: Namore attacked Wakanda with a title wave, killing thousands, and as a result, Namore's Phoenix powers spread among the others, giving Piotr Eliana Scott and Emma each one-fourth of the Phoenix now.
1:33:11
[SPEAKER_06]: Realizing he had all the power he could want, Piotr approached Kitty at the Jean Grey School and asked her on a date.
1:33:17
[SPEAKER_06]: He parted the ocean and set up a simple dinner while trying to impress her with words about his power and his undying love, and Kitty expressed concern for Colossus, so he got the idea to destroy the school itself so that she would no longer have any distractions from him.
1:33:31
[SPEAKER_06]: Kitty in the X-Men attacked Piotr and Piotr tossed many of them aside and threatened to kill Kitty herself before he realized how far he was falling into the power.
1:33:40
[SPEAKER_06]: Colossus and Magic then used the Phoenix Power to take down four directly.
1:33:44
[SPEAKER_06]: After spending some idle time trying to give whales legs as an experiment, but they had imprisoned the Avengers and surrounded themselves with limbo demons, while fighting the collective Avengers who had attacked to free their teammates.
1:33:59
[SPEAKER_06]: While horribly beating Spider-Man, Piotr tried convincing Eliana to give her power up to him, but he was beginning to have doubts about what they were doing as the Phoenix.
1:34:08
[SPEAKER_06]: In turn, Eliana wanted Piotr's power.
1:34:11
[SPEAKER_06]: When they turned on each other, the Phoenix left both of them and dissipated into Cyclops and Emma Frost, but those are stories for another time.
1:34:18
[SPEAKER_06]: Let me turn it over to Rob Celeno.
1:34:20
[SPEAKER_04]: This is a fun one because there's there's actually not a lot of activity here that Peter does that could be really considered criminal.
1:34:29
[SPEAKER_04]: I guess the biggest one that we'll start with is his attack on the gene grade school.
1:34:34
[SPEAKER_04]: The very uncomfortable date that he takes kitty on which is
1:34:38
[SPEAKER_04]: weird.
1:34:38
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's intentionally weird.
1:34:40
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, like, this is he, he doesn't really kidnap her, but he does sort of like put her in this really creepy situation, which is of a piece with a lot of stuff that's going on in Wolverine at the X-Men at the time.
1:34:51
[SPEAKER_04]: Jason Aaron seems to really like telling stories of kind of
1:34:55
[SPEAKER_04]: creepy guys who have creepy obsessions with women, the toad and husk is is definitely we even see parts of that in this issue when he picks up one of her dead skins and we see that he's making a tea party with it later is his sort of like you must be with me or I won't let you be with anyone is
1:35:14
[SPEAKER_04]: is certainly the scariest we've seen Peter in any of his sort of obsessions with Kitty, which there's really, there isn't a lot of defending that.
1:35:23
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it is threatening behavior.
1:35:26
[SPEAKER_04]: It is the sort of thing that if he wasn't super powered would certainly lead to restraining orders, if not even more legal consequences, he's a real crate in this issue and that really shouldn't be ignored.
1:35:39
[SPEAKER_04]: As one of the Phoenix five,
1:35:41
[SPEAKER_04]: Peter is basically going along with the Phoenix while they are, well, with the group while they are making the world objectively better.
1:35:48
[SPEAKER_04]: They're turning super villains into power grids.
1:35:52
[SPEAKER_04]: We see Colossus building greenhouses in, like, I forgot what that peninsula is called, the Tamer, Tamer.
1:36:00
[SPEAKER_04]: It's the northernmost peninsula of Russia.
1:36:03
[SPEAKER_04]: It is, it is
1:36:04
[SPEAKER_04]: deep in the Arctic that he is growing wheat and growing vegetables building the food supply for the world we're seeing him do a lot of good there and then the only other like quite a questionable thing that I can point to during his run as a phoenix is when he impresons the Avengers in hell along with Iliana you know we we see this spread of the Avengers you know kind of being tortured in in this
1:36:31
[SPEAKER_04]: And these are these are very clearly not.
1:36:33
[SPEAKER_04]: Geneva conventions, conditions for prisoners of war.
1:36:37
[SPEAKER_04]: We see they look like they're being suspended in like spider webs with like weird sucker mouth parasites threatening around them placed inside the area.
1:36:47
[SPEAKER_04]: There's got to be some kind of ecological convention that is being broken by literally putting hell inside the area on earth.
1:36:55
[SPEAKER_04]: So these are these are some serious considerations to weigh here.
1:36:58
[SPEAKER_04]: And to his defense on that point, I will say the Avengers are one hundred percent in the wrong in AVX and the Avengers that they beat up when they come into hell to release their friends.
1:37:09
[SPEAKER_04]: They're attacking.
1:37:10
[SPEAKER_04]: They are breaking the law such as has been established by the Phoenix who are now the rulers of at least this part of Siberia.
1:37:18
[SPEAKER_04]: They're invading their home that they have set up here.
1:37:21
[SPEAKER_04]: Peter and Iliana are just standing there ground, which if that's legal in Florida, I'm sure it's legal in Russia.
1:37:26
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm going to say, so that is the key points in the prosecution and the defense of Peter as Phoenix.
1:37:34
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, and one more thing in Peter's defense.
1:37:36
[SPEAKER_04]: Again, he is under the influence of Citerac here, still as well as the Phoenix.
1:37:41
[SPEAKER_04]: Both of these have corrupting influences on him.
1:37:44
[SPEAKER_04]: The jury may consider to mitigate his guilt in the situation.
1:37:49
[SPEAKER_04]: So please keep that under consideration when you are weighing his culpability for these actions and whether or not these actions are actually even crimes.
1:37:57
[SPEAKER_04]: And what's wrong with Wales with legs?
1:37:59
[SPEAKER_04]: There's nothing wrong with it.
1:38:00
[SPEAKER_04]: Actually, I didn't want to bring that up.
1:38:02
[SPEAKER_04]: That is an important point.
1:38:04
[SPEAKER_04]: Wales with legs here.
1:38:05
[SPEAKER_04]: One of the things that he brings up is that the Wales with legs, the problem is that they're having trouble breathing on land, which shouldn't be a problem for Wales with legs, because Wales are mammals.
1:38:16
[SPEAKER_04]: They actually breathe air.
1:38:17
[SPEAKER_04]: That's why they come to the surface to breathe out of their blow holes.
1:38:20
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think what Peter did here is he tried to make them fish with legs.
1:38:26
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think
1:38:27
[SPEAKER_04]: He took those whales and turned their lungs into gills by accident because like I said, Peter's kind of a dummy.
1:38:34
[SPEAKER_04]: He's not well-read.
1:38:35
[SPEAKER_04]: He's not like, you know, a science person.
1:38:38
[SPEAKER_04]: I think he believes that whales are fish and he was like, oh, I don't know what this blowhole was for.
1:38:43
[SPEAKER_04]: And where are their gills?
1:38:44
[SPEAKER_04]: Here's some gills and some legs and then he put them on land and they were struggling because obviously they can't breathe because they no longer have lungs.
1:38:50
[SPEAKER_04]: This, I think, speaks to his diminished mental capacity, his diminished culpability because he does not, he is not aware of what he's doing and that should be considered here.
1:39:00
[SPEAKER_04]: And also, in defense of his actions with Kitty, he does actually restrain himself from doing anything that causes harm to anyone.
1:39:08
[SPEAKER_04]: He doesn't blow up the school, he doesn't kill anyone.
1:39:11
[SPEAKER_04]: He doesn't really hurt anyone while he's there, although he says some threatening things and then stops himself and retracts everything that he said.
1:39:17
[SPEAKER_06]: We have to establish the Phoenix Force is not mentally controlling but mentally influencing as a power source.
1:39:23
[SPEAKER_06]: That is something we've had to do in previous trials as we have this conversation.
1:39:27
[SPEAKER_06]: For sake of time, I'm going to have everyone cast their jet vote in the chat if that's okay.
1:39:31
[SPEAKER_06]: Just so we can keep things moving a little more quickly.
1:39:34
[SPEAKER_06]: We've got scores of
1:39:35
[SPEAKER_06]: Two, one, one, one, one, one, three, and three.
1:39:41
[SPEAKER_06]: So one, that's a level out of thirty in this section, which takes us to trial point five, which we are calling the chronicleer.
1:39:48
[SPEAKER_06]: The assigned jury member here is Justin Wilder.
1:39:50
[SPEAKER_06]: Justin, I know you revisited these stories in real time as they came out.
1:39:54
[SPEAKER_06]: So I hope it was fun to go back.
1:39:55
[SPEAKER_06]: This is X-horse volume six numbers, twenty three and twenty four, immortal X-men twelve, and X-horse volume six numbers, forty two through forty six.
1:40:03
[SPEAKER_06]: After the nation of Krikoa formed, Colossus took a job working at an X-Corp farm in the savage land, settled down with his girlfriend Kayla.
1:40:10
[SPEAKER_06]: He painted and planted while she used her water powers to irrigate the soil.
1:40:14
[SPEAKER_06]: Meanwhile, Mikhail Rasputin made plans to form his own Russian nation of mutants within the Soviet Union and he considered Krikoa an enemy.
1:40:21
[SPEAKER_06]: while working with evil men and sending assassins to the island repeatedly, Mikhail also manipulated a drunk mutant writer.
1:40:28
[SPEAKER_06]: The Chronicler, a man who can control others with his pen into taking over the mind of Colossus over time.
1:40:35
[SPEAKER_06]: And the first thing the Chronicler forced Piotr to do, kill his lover Kayla with a squeeze breaking her neck and then burying her in the yard.
1:40:43
[SPEAKER_06]: We have some conversations about the Mikhail Chronicleer connection in the Mikhail Respion episode, but it's a play on the torture Russian writer who is addicted to alcohol.
1:40:52
[SPEAKER_06]: Soon, Piotr was appointed to the quiet council of Krakowa, and he waited patiently biting his time while the chronicleer and Mikhail had access to Krakowa's secrets.
1:41:01
[SPEAKER_06]: During a time of key political stress for the mutants, after the events of the sins of Sinister timeline, the Conocler through Piotr organized specific events that would result in the quiet council revealing the truths of the Sinister event to the general public, which is crazy.
1:41:16
[SPEAKER_06]: They stoked the fear of mutants globally and further divided those ruling the island nation.
1:41:21
[SPEAKER_06]: Quote, the good Argon only and only sinners remain, we are heavy with secrets we should be better than that.
1:41:28
[SPEAKER_06]: Trapped inside his own mind, Piotr desperately hoped that Kitty or Storm would notice how oddly he was behaving.
1:41:34
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm trapped in a Russian novel, and all the demons of Dostiaski possess me.
1:41:38
[SPEAKER_06]: I am as tormented as Raskolnikov, and my escape is just as impossible.
1:41:43
[SPEAKER_06]: and even the chronicler hoped to find a way to turn on Mikhail, but events played out at his orders.
1:41:48
[SPEAKER_06]: In time, Colossus volunteered to join X-force, and in their very first mission, he wound up in an alternate future where the beast had grown corrupt.
1:41:56
[SPEAKER_06]: And the longer Colossus spent away, the more he freed himself from the influences of the chronicler.
1:42:00
[SPEAKER_06]: He had just enough time to give Domino a clue to his truth about himself before he wound that back under the control of the chronicler.
1:42:07
[SPEAKER_06]: He's, uh, instructor to go to his old home where he had painted paintings, showing himself as a captured man, and that led her to the body of Kayla.
1:42:15
[SPEAKER_06]: The Kyle made plans to unleash a full assault on a critical ed during the Hellfire Gala,
1:42:19
[SPEAKER_06]: This is after the ex-lives and deaths of Wolverine story that he was involved in, we won't get into that today.
1:42:24
[SPEAKER_06]: But Orcus got to the galle, first disrupting the Kyle's plans.
1:42:28
[SPEAKER_06]: Domino discovered Kayla's body, and thanks to some clues that Peter had managed to leave in a painting, Domino was able to alert sage to her discovery.
1:42:36
[SPEAKER_06]: Mikhail meanwhile ordered the chronicler to let Piotr go, instead wanting to shift his focus into infiltrating Orcas suddenly, desperate for power.
1:42:44
[SPEAKER_06]: Despite the chronicler's fear that releasing Piotr after all this time might kill him, Kilosos was sent to kidnap Agent Juneway to be his replacement.
1:42:52
[SPEAKER_06]: Kilosos was then briefly banished to an interdimensional realm created by Mikhail, left with nothing but an easel and paint.
1:42:59
[SPEAKER_06]: and he painted a monstrous image of Mikhail consuming him.
1:43:03
[SPEAKER_06]: The chronicleer made a June turn on Mikhail, shooting him, and then she shot the chronicleer himself.
1:43:09
[SPEAKER_06]: And as the dimensional barriers around them collapsed, Klausus found Mikhail badly wounded, resisting violence, Klausus tried walking away, but Mikhail provoked a fight, and Klausus ended up ripping his own brother's heart out as a result.
1:43:24
[SPEAKER_06]: In the day of Sinscracoa, Colossus is back on XForce this time as the mercenary tank, and he has most recently settled in Siberia, looking for some quiet introspective time.
1:43:34
[SPEAKER_06]: Let me turn it over to Justin Wilder for this crazy huge Benjamin Percy run on Colossus.
1:43:39
[SPEAKER_03]: or honors.
1:43:39
[SPEAKER_03]: The prosecution calls into question this entire hall tale.
1:43:43
[SPEAKER_03]: You mean to say that one of the strongest X-Men ever fell under the thrall of this no name, fanfic writer, the chronicleer?
1:43:50
[SPEAKER_03]: Pete, you're a seasoned X-Men, fifty years in the making, and you're telling me someone utterly swayed your willpower with a bedtime story.
1:43:58
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't buy it.
1:43:59
[SPEAKER_03]: I call in a question that a defendant's history, his love of his family, his attachment to his home country's prosperity.
1:44:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Did Mikhail and the chronicler set against the defendant with malicious intent?
1:44:10
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
1:44:10
[SPEAKER_03]: But could the mind of someone so strong be broken?
1:44:13
[SPEAKER_03]: Without the seed of that thought having already been planted, I think not.
1:44:18
[SPEAKER_03]: I rest my half-hearted case and flip because there's no way my boy is taking on any of this heat.
1:44:23
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, you understand?
1:44:24
[SPEAKER_03]: The defense.
1:44:24
[SPEAKER_03]: From the perspective of this defense, this case is open and shut.
1:44:28
[SPEAKER_03]: McHale rescued and his bio-weapon manufacturing boyfriend had been plotting in the background together since the mutant island nation of Krikoa began.
1:44:36
[SPEAKER_03]: They captured the hero Colossus and used him as an unwitting wire on the island.
1:44:40
[SPEAKER_03]: Mikhail, puppeted the reality-warping powers of the chronicle to take advantage of Piotr's connections and trust within the mutant communities.
1:44:48
[SPEAKER_03]: Piotr first finds his way to Karkoa by help of the Marauder in X-Fource No.
1:44:53
[SPEAKER_03]: I, Xavier, had sent him to Russia to be boots on the ground, meeting with mutants.
1:44:57
[SPEAKER_03]: trying to arrange their extraction.
1:44:59
[SPEAKER_03]: We now know from travel records, mines, scans, and witness testimony that this is when Piotr was kidnapped and taken over by the Chronicle's power.
1:45:06
[SPEAKER_03]: He went to rescue his countrymen and was betrayed by his own family, a hero, too good for this world, every step on the island of Krakowa, directed by someone else.
1:45:15
[SPEAKER_03]: In X-For-Seven, we see a break in the emotional wall as Piotr connects with Domino, a former lover who knows him well sharing some of his troubles as he carries along these visions of what he had survived in Russia.
1:45:27
[SPEAKER_03]: We see the first of his paintings, the haunting of his subconscious, by the eerie red portrait of his brother Mikhail.
1:45:33
[SPEAKER_03]: I submit to evidence XForce ten through twelve where we get a series of data pages written from unknown sources.
1:45:39
[SPEAKER_03]: The words describe specific actions of XForce mutants, as well as a tale of a kidnapped and forced employee in the chronicle.
1:45:47
[SPEAKER_03]: Many are signed with Russian script and that name, the chronicleer.
1:45:51
[SPEAKER_03]: The only name we ever have on file for this mute.
1:45:53
[SPEAKER_03]: Piotr starts working farmland for X-Corp, tending to crops with his new girlfriend Kayla, a simple life, working with his hands and being useful to the world, away from the conflict.
1:46:03
[SPEAKER_03]: You might say it was his ultimate goal, happiness achieved.
1:46:05
[SPEAKER_03]: But in reality, his desires are being used against him.
1:46:08
[SPEAKER_03]: His paintings were providing a dossier of locations across Perkowa.
1:46:12
[SPEAKER_03]: The order was sharing key visuals and details to build layout maps off of.
1:46:17
[SPEAKER_03]: And when Kayla, his girlfriend, found them, fridgeed, next snapped by the gentle giant, a complete departure from known character and motivation.
1:46:24
[SPEAKER_03]: Something we see later when confronting his brother, the true villain here, and perpetrator of the crimes against Yoda and in his name.
1:46:30
[SPEAKER_03]: At what could seem to be the worst possible time, Yoda is now added to the quiet council.
1:46:35
[SPEAKER_03]: quick and plotted moves of manipulation to consolidate votes and cause dysfunction within the council are wildly unpredictable.
1:46:41
[SPEAKER_03]: We get internal narration from him as he attempts to resist the Chronicle's influence on every word in action.
1:46:47
[SPEAKER_03]: He's being used, manipulated and controlled and his dearest friends don't even notice.
1:46:52
[SPEAKER_03]: It isn't until he travels beyond our timeline and that the influence is truly broken that he has returned back to himself.
1:46:58
[SPEAKER_03]: Trusting Domino to find what his subconscious was blocking out, it gives the tip necessary for her and sage to uncover the truth of what
1:47:05
[SPEAKER_03]: happening.
1:47:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks to the help of Dr. Strange X-Force is rescued from Mikhail's influence and collapses his freedom from his prisoners and safely.
1:47:12
[SPEAKER_03]: Ready to accept the crimes that he has committed under the control of Mikhail and the chronicle.
1:47:17
[SPEAKER_03]: The whole team is thankful to be able to survive and deliver justice to the villain of Mikhail who had haunted their entire existence.
1:47:25
[SPEAKER_03]: I rest my case.
1:47:26
[SPEAKER_06]: Let's get a click scores in the chat again on this one.
1:47:29
[SPEAKER_06]: It's fun to revisit these stories.
1:47:31
[SPEAKER_06]: Justin, I hope you had a good time going back to this kind of critical era.
1:47:34
[SPEAKER_06]: It's such a good long form storytelling on Percy's part.
1:47:37
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, you just see throughout the entire arc of the series, the seeds that build to read it in such a segmented way of like, no, this is the this is the cliff notes of what he was trying to do.
1:47:48
[SPEAKER_03]: Great.
1:47:49
[SPEAKER_06]: Are you a zero here, Justin?
1:47:50
[SPEAKER_06]: So this is straight zeros from all of us on this section, which makes perfect sense.
1:47:53
[SPEAKER_06]: But God is in a good story, even though it's heart-wrenching to watch Colossus go through this.
1:47:57
[SPEAKER_06]: That gives us a zero out of thirty.
1:47:58
[SPEAKER_06]: Our final score for this guy is thirty six out of one fifty giving an overall percentage of twenty four percent, which I think is Milo is thus far.
1:48:07
[SPEAKER_06]: And I love it for PDP your heart.
1:48:09
[SPEAKER_06]: As we're wrapping up our conversation, I know we've been talking for a long time.
1:48:12
[SPEAKER_06]: I'd love to hear any final thoughts.
1:48:14
[SPEAKER_06]: What did you learn about Colossus today?
1:48:15
[SPEAKER_06]: What's sticking with you as we are wrapping up this conversation?
1:48:19
[SPEAKER_06]: Let us know where people can find you online.
1:48:21
[SPEAKER_06]: Is there anything you want to plug?
1:48:22
[SPEAKER_06]: We're going to put this on July, twenty eight.
1:48:24
[SPEAKER_07]: I think Peter needs to go to therapy.
1:48:27
[SPEAKER_07]: I'm seeing that he's gone through a lot.
1:48:28
[SPEAKER_07]: I'm seeing that he has a lot of thought-assessing that is not necessarily healthy.
1:48:35
[SPEAKER_07]: I think he needs to sit down with someone and talk this out.
1:48:37
[SPEAKER_07]: But that's hard because I feel like the X-Men are kind of taught.
1:48:39
[SPEAKER_07]: Not to really talk this out.
1:48:41
[SPEAKER_07]: Xavier's missed these people up so much.
1:48:43
[SPEAKER_07]: Peter, go to therapy.
1:48:44
[SPEAKER_07]: Um, you got to find me at Haram's Garam cosplay on Instagram, Haram's Garam Arts on Instagram as well.
1:48:50
[SPEAKER_04]: Peter, should probably find someone to talk to about all of this stuff.
1:48:54
[SPEAKER_04]: Keep drawing that is a good outlet for them as for where you can find me.
1:48:57
[SPEAKER_04]: I am at Rob Solerno on most social media sites.
1:49:01
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to take a look at some of my art.
1:49:04
[SPEAKER_04]: I am at Insta Hateskay Art on Instagram.
1:49:08
[SPEAKER_03]: I loved Colossus before this
1:49:09
[SPEAKER_03]: started.
1:49:10
[SPEAKER_03]: I appreciate the fact that even the darkest points in his history can be grubbed free from a little of any residual feelings of, you know, you got the influence of cosmic powers, his terrible brother, and other mutants recruited against him.
1:49:25
[SPEAKER_03]: He's just, he's great.
1:49:26
[SPEAKER_03]: He's a good boy.
1:49:26
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure, his art might not be that great, but he can punch the heck out of anyone who comes at him and I love him for it.
1:49:31
[SPEAKER_03]: You can find me as half of the XY podcast.
1:49:34
[SPEAKER_03]: We talk about
1:49:35
[SPEAKER_03]: X-Men, you know, it will go through a rebrand right now and so we'll leave a vague and that's THEXWIFE podcast on Instagram primarily.
1:49:43
[SPEAKER_05]: So good to see you my friend Peter is heroic and I don't think I'd ever completed reading his full corpus and so I now see him with a few more data points as more heroic.
1:49:52
[SPEAKER_05]: Then I thought of before
1:49:53
[SPEAKER_05]: And so that was that was refreshing and and good to see it and I don't think my my initial love of Peter has changed anything and I think it was cool to reflect on it a bit here.
1:50:04
[SPEAKER_05]: My name is Derek Kinskin and I don't know if things will still be on sale by the time this comes out, but my publisher has the ebook of my novel The House of Sticks on sale right now for ninety-nine pens at Solaris books
1:50:15
[SPEAKER_02]: I love Colossus, I love Colossus' bad art.
1:50:18
[SPEAKER_02]: I think everybody needs to be making more bad art.
1:50:20
[SPEAKER_02]: You can find me online at on Blue Sky and on my website, Tristan Palmerman, P-R-I-S-T-A-N-P-E-S-M-P-T-R-A-L-M-G-R-E-N, and you can find my books, including a number of books about various X-Men and Marvel characters wherever books are sold.
1:50:39
[SPEAKER_06]: What a joy once again.
1:50:41
[SPEAKER_06]: These lead me smiling.
1:50:42
[SPEAKER_06]: Colossus, I love.
1:50:43
[SPEAKER_06]: I could pitch a Colossus story tomorrow.
1:50:45
[SPEAKER_06]: I think Colossus has a long history that's not often respected.
1:50:47
[SPEAKER_06]: I think Colossus is ready to lead an X-Men team.
1:50:50
[SPEAKER_06]: I want Colossus to find out about the kitty has in the savage land and have like a dad art.
1:50:54
[SPEAKER_06]: I want Colossus to like discover what he loves and really push on it.
1:50:58
[SPEAKER_06]: And it's always interesting to me to play the thought experiment.
1:51:00
[SPEAKER_06]: If you have a feature character, how do you create a foil for that character?
1:51:04
[SPEAKER_06]: So the evil Russian archetypes are always a good foil for Colossus of Mega Red, et cetera, or the feeding kind of secret keeping parts of the government, or you get the big strong guy.
1:51:14
[SPEAKER_06]: But I think you take a turn on like the twisted artist, or what it's like to have a character like him who doesn't show restraint, or et cetera, et cetera.
1:51:22
[SPEAKER_06]: I think there's a number of ways to really feature this character strongly that make him so indelible and interesting.
1:51:28
[SPEAKER_06]: I really love this character.
1:51:29
[SPEAKER_06]: Alright, I'm done sharing thoughts on glass for this month of the next episode you can watch for on the show is going to be script readings of the vendors, one thirty nine and champions number three and we're closing out the Patreon with a character episode on another Russian telepath, Elena Ivanova.
1:51:44
[SPEAKER_06]: We are having a great time the next three trials on the show.
1:51:47
[SPEAKER_06]: I always announce that the end in August watched for the trial of David Cannon the whirlwind in September watch for the trial of Agatha Harkness and in October the joint trials of those two children of the devil the son of Satan and Satan We're gonna have a great time with all three Thank you everybody for listening.
1:52:04
[SPEAKER_06]: Thank you to my friends here for your long times that recording with me today We'll see you all back here next time on the great mountain lane show
1:52:10
[SPEAKER_06]: And now stay tuned for some thoughts on fascism as a special guest tonight talked about a red skull story and its modern applications.
1:52:20
[SPEAKER_06]: By late April, nineteen forty five Nazi Germany was collapsing.
1:52:24
[SPEAKER_06]: They were losing on every front and the Allies were closing in on the west with the red armies surrounding Berlin itself and Hitler retreated to his lavish
1:52:32
[SPEAKER_06]: Furibunker.
1:52:33
[SPEAKER_06]: On April twenty ninth, he married his longtime partner, Eva Brown, in a civil ceremony, the same day he dictated his last will and testament, refusing to surrender while blaming the Jews and the international forces for his defeat.
1:52:46
[SPEAKER_06]: On April thirty, Hitler had a final farewell meeting with his staff, then had lunch with his wife.
1:52:52
[SPEAKER_06]: And at three thirty p.m.
1:52:54
[SPEAKER_06]: a single gunshot was heard.
1:52:55
[SPEAKER_06]: A shot to the head with a seven sixty-five millimeter pistol.
1:52:59
[SPEAKER_06]: Eva Brown had ingested poison and Hitler had shot himself.
1:53:03
[SPEAKER_06]: The bodies were wrapped in blankets and burned.
1:53:05
[SPEAKER_06]: The Soviets later recovered their bodies and confirmed the identities of the corpses with partial autopses.
1:53:11
[SPEAKER_06]: The bodies were then reportedly held in Russia until nineteen seventy when they were reportedly cremated.
1:53:17
[SPEAKER_06]: Stalin let rumors that Hitler had escaped, Ron rampant.
1:53:21
[SPEAKER_06]: Among the lesser-known Nazi plots is a thing called Operation Burn Hard, a plan to flood, Britain, and eventually the United States with counterfeit dollars that would destabilize the economy.
1:53:32
[SPEAKER_06]: It remains the largest counterfitting operation in history, a hundred and thirty-two million fake pounds were printed.
1:53:39
[SPEAKER_06]: and Jewish captives were forced into slave labor in order to produce them.
1:53:43
[SPEAKER_06]: The operation had some successes, but ultimately failed.
1:53:46
[SPEAKER_06]: Among the many Nazi teachings, third thought here, the term russian shanda, or racial defilement, a principle that forbid relationships between Aryans and non- Aryans, particularly black people, Jews, and Roma with those of the white race.
1:54:03
[SPEAKER_06]: They looked at mixed race relationships in the United States, though they were illegal here too, primarily, as an example of cultural degeneracy, and they sought to sterilize and exterminate those of mixed race.
1:54:14
[SPEAKER_06]: Well, with those fun thoughts, let's jump into Captain America, what eighty two through what eighty
1:54:18
[SPEAKER_06]: This is a story by Steve Engelhardt, my friend.
1:54:21
[SPEAKER_06]: I written in nineteen seventy five.
1:54:22
[SPEAKER_06]: During a time on Captain America, I'd lost his faith in the government because the president was the leader of the Nazi-Coded Secret Empire.
1:54:28
[SPEAKER_06]: It's hinted to be Richard Nixon.
1:54:30
[SPEAKER_06]: We covered that on the show last year.
1:54:32
[SPEAKER_06]: The Falcon, Sam Wilson, trained a young man named Roscoe to become the new Captain America.
1:54:37
[SPEAKER_06]: I cappied been no mad for a long time and we now have a new, idealistic young American in the guise of the hero.
1:54:44
[SPEAKER_06]: But the red skull came back.
1:54:45
[SPEAKER_06]: in a new masked costume, and he murdered the boy.
1:54:48
[SPEAKER_06]: Tying him to a chimney for Steve Rogers to find his body like it's a hate crime.
1:54:53
[SPEAKER_06]: The murder doesn't happen quite on panel, but it's still quite jarring.
1:54:56
[SPEAKER_06]: The Red Skull lets the Falcon live.
1:54:58
[SPEAKER_06]: The boy's horrible death inspires Steve to put on his Captain America uniform again, thus ending Steve Engelhardt's long run on the title basically.
1:55:06
[SPEAKER_06]: Red Skull planned to devastate the United States in this storyline on the thirtyth anniversary of Hitler's death, April thirtyth, nineteen seventy-five.
1:55:14
[SPEAKER_06]: Red Skull plays Chopan's death march, and unleashes his new weapon, the dust of death.
1:55:20
[SPEAKER_06]: All those who breathe it die as their faces change into eerie red skulls.
1:55:25
[SPEAKER_06]: It's very joker from the Batman coated.
1:55:27
[SPEAKER_06]: But Redskol also has a jetpack, and he starts killing members of the Federal Open Market Committee that determines economic policy one at a time while spouting racist and sexist statements.
1:55:38
[SPEAKER_06]: He captured Peggy Carter, Captain America's World War II girlfriend, and compared her to Betty Grabel, the American pin-up girl,
1:55:45
[SPEAKER_06]: He also captured her boyfriend to Gabe Jones, a black soldier from World War II.
1:55:49
[SPEAKER_06]: He strings them both up, and he beats, and tortures them for hours.
1:55:53
[SPEAKER_06]: Again, it's implied not directly shown, but there's still some jarring images.
1:55:57
[SPEAKER_06]: He spits in their faces, then Captain America and the Falcon attack.
1:56:00
[SPEAKER_06]: But in key moment, the Red Skull reveals that the Falcon is his creation.
1:56:04
[SPEAKER_06]: After making Falcon clocked like a chicken and calling him a black fine-hound, Red Skull explains how he used the cosmic cube to create layered identities for the Falcon.
1:56:14
[SPEAKER_06]: The snap Wilson criminal persona that Jive talking criminal, this is later retond, but we'll get to that as we get to the retond's later down the line.
1:56:23
[SPEAKER_06]: He also says he created the Falcon powers and even the identity of Sam Wilson as a social worker.
1:56:29
[SPEAKER_06]: Red Skull makes Cap in the Falcon fight.
1:56:31
[SPEAKER_06]: A bunch more people die with his dust of death and then he escapes, living for another day.
1:56:36
[SPEAKER_06]: Let me welcome my guest on this video episode, the incredible writer, Jorge Gonzalez, where hey, welcome back to the show.
1:56:42
[SPEAKER_06]: Are you a Red Skull fan?
1:56:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm certainly a Captain and Red Skull is just one of the classic iconic villains of, you know, of all.
1:56:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean really.
1:56:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I feel like in the same way for me, Captain America is remains to me.
1:56:56
[SPEAKER_00]: The American I did, like, such a powerful character.
1:56:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's go as the poster child for fascists.
1:57:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I love this ankle heart run because he made cap permanently relevant, you know, with that whole watergate, you know, the secret and parse story and all of that.
1:57:11
[SPEAKER_00]: having to face.
1:57:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So that cap wouldn't just be relegated to a jingoist, it kind of, which was a danger.
1:57:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And especially when the title first started that being in jail for kind of not sure, it became clear pretty suitant, you know, like they really can't not show what to do with the character beyond the man at a time.
1:57:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And in the same way, I feel in his run, he's made the red skull again far beyond just Nazis.
1:57:33
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like he's the personification, all this evil fascist.
1:57:37
[SPEAKER_00]: stuff.
1:57:37
[SPEAKER_00]: That's very easy for beauty.
1:57:40
[SPEAKER_00]: It's for kids to see the evil there and the danger there.
1:57:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, at the same time for adults when you read it, just looking for the material now.
1:57:49
[SPEAKER_00]: It's even more disturbing.
1:57:50
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the images of Roscoe when he's who's the guy who's the captain of America while all cap is no mad basically crucified.
1:57:59
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I immediately get images of Matthew Shepherd.
1:58:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I remember when that happened.
1:58:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And that kind of like that's powerful.
1:58:07
[SPEAKER_00]: right skull is a villain that will unfortunately will always here.
1:58:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I've always tell folks you know again I love cap and I'm like democracy is not a spectator sport.
1:58:15
[SPEAKER_00]: You always have to be on top of the fascism.
1:58:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Those things will always start to creep in if you take your eye off the ball.
1:58:21
[SPEAKER_06]: had the joy of interviewing Steve Engelhardt, a couple of times.
1:58:25
[SPEAKER_06]: And we've talked about forming different kinds of villains for Captain America to face.
1:58:29
[SPEAKER_06]: What if it's a corrupt government?
1:58:31
[SPEAKER_06]: What if it's something within the government that doesn't seem to measure democracy?
1:58:35
[SPEAKER_06]: What if it's your standing for the left or the right, the signs of protest?
1:58:39
[SPEAKER_06]: But of course, Nazism is always the baseline threat that he's facing.
1:58:44
[SPEAKER_06]: Now we'll come back around to that in just a minute, but Captain America in this storyline has lost his faith in the government.
1:58:49
[SPEAKER_06]: He's become the man without a country.
1:58:51
[SPEAKER_06]: He's forsaken America.
1:58:52
[SPEAKER_06]: And here we have a story where a young boy, he is idealistic, is hopping into this role of the great hero.
1:58:59
[SPEAKER_06]: It's kind of like an exciting thing like this kid is enthusiastic and happy the innocence of youth jumping into the role of something he didn't quite understand because it was during a time when I think this character Roscoe thought perhaps evil does not exist at that level.
1:59:17
[SPEAKER_06]: right?
1:59:17
[SPEAKER_06]: The red stone mixes violent return and one of many, many, many returns here obviously.
1:59:22
[SPEAKER_06]: But the death of innocence being the thing that takes Captain America back to accepting the duties of the role of his office, which is something he always takes very seriously.
1:59:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you said, I feel is very indicative of every generation kind of needs to return history.
1:59:36
[SPEAKER_00]: like they're not aware of the context of things going on.
1:59:40
[SPEAKER_00]: The dangers of fascism and how evil really just, I always have a big advocate for Christy Fan and one of my favorite plural lines was do not let evil into your heart.
1:59:50
[SPEAKER_00]: It will find a home there and I feel that fascism with fascism is that way in the way it seems to our society certain that's used by evil forces in this case, the rest goal to bring out the worst instincts and really cater to that.
2:00:05
[SPEAKER_06]: the branding, believe in this cause and then the reality underneath is very thinly veiled.
2:00:14
[SPEAKER_06]: My husband and I as we're recording this at the end of June, my husband and I just got back from a trip to Canada.
2:00:18
[SPEAKER_06]: We were at a gay bar one evening and whenever people learned we were from America, there was lots of like, oh, are you guys okay or lots of like,
2:00:25
[SPEAKER_06]: I don't know how you guys elected a rapist into office the second time.
2:00:29
[SPEAKER_06]: It doesn't make any sense.
2:00:30
[SPEAKER_06]: And I'm like, oh, I remember what it felt like to be surprised by my government.
2:00:34
[SPEAKER_06]: But there was one key conversation with someone who was victim.
2:00:38
[SPEAKER_06]: I will be kind again.
2:00:39
[SPEAKER_06]: We were in a gay bar.
2:00:40
[SPEAKER_06]: But he was very like, you know, I've been listening to the messages.
2:00:42
[SPEAKER_06]: And I kind of believe in a lot of what Trump says.
2:00:45
[SPEAKER_06]: He goes, you know, in the government up here, we're having all these immigration problems.
2:00:49
[SPEAKER_06]: There's not enough money for us.
2:00:50
[SPEAKER_06]: Our government's giving money to you.
2:00:52
[SPEAKER_06]: train, I can barely afford my rent, homeless misses out of control.
2:00:56
[SPEAKER_06]: I don't like immigrants, and there were four different times during his little speech where he went.
2:01:00
[SPEAKER_06]: But when I'm talking about immigrants, I don't mean to sound like a racist asshole or anything.
2:01:04
[SPEAKER_06]: But I'm not talking about people like you guys.
2:01:06
[SPEAKER_06]: Meaning people like you, it was a very uncomfortable thing.
2:01:09
[SPEAKER_06]: But when he finally slowed down and asked like, okay, what's it like there?
2:01:13
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm like, well, there's the message, and then there's the reality.
2:01:16
[SPEAKER_06]: And I started listening all the things that are being done against immigration.
2:01:19
[SPEAKER_06]: the trans community in stripping a way of disability rights, et cetera.
2:01:22
[SPEAKER_06]: And he's like, oh, the sobering reality.
2:01:25
[SPEAKER_06]: It felt like the loss of it is it's a Velagrosco diet on the wall.
2:01:29
[SPEAKER_06]: It's a jarring, it's a jarring thing to consider because this is a fifty-year-old story.
2:01:33
[SPEAKER_00]: All the ice rates going on.
2:01:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And what I find particularly disturbing with that stuff is the cruelty that they have just raisingly embraced
2:01:42
[SPEAKER_00]: reading this cap story now that it's like like you said this, but fifty years ago, I'm writing, you know, and it's we're still there.
2:01:50
[SPEAKER_06]: The second thing in this story, uh, theme wise is this kind of awful torture of Peggy Carter and Gabe Jones.
2:01:56
[SPEAKER_06]: These world war two heroes who are kind of elderly in this story.
2:01:59
[SPEAKER_06]: They end up forming a romantic relationship.
2:02:01
[SPEAKER_06]: I believe it's Marvel's first interracial kiss on the page.
2:02:05
[SPEAKER_06]: These two characters I believe
2:02:06
[SPEAKER_06]: But Gabe Jones is dead in the comics.
2:02:08
[SPEAKER_06]: Now Peggy Carter has become like an action hero, which is a crazy big at our day of age.
2:02:13
[SPEAKER_06]: But red skull calling them names insulting them for their skin color and their gender while spitting on them.
2:02:19
[SPEAKER_06]: And you see a particular image of Peggy's face having been hit as she kind of defies fascism.
2:02:25
[SPEAKER_06]: The message again very thinly veiled as it's something awful horrible.
2:02:29
[SPEAKER_06]: This is not a good person.
2:02:31
[SPEAKER_06]: Before we even get to the dust of death,
2:02:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's pretty bold for, and thinking I grew up with these kind of, a little after this, but, you know, grew up with it, like, these were still very much geared towards senior worlds, thirteen-year-olds.
2:02:43
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, comics, code of thought, we're still very, you know, like, I'm amazed, they were able to get some of this stuff through, because it is pretty strong stuff, pretty disturbing.
2:02:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I had almost forgotten revealing this, the Gabe Jones, could see what was one of the Halloween Commandos.
2:02:55
[SPEAKER_06]: Yep.
2:02:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So this character has been around for a while.
2:02:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm like, this is such a cool pairing actually.
2:03:01
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, Engelhard gives him some really cool moments.
2:03:03
[SPEAKER_06]: And he's a fun counter for the Falcon, who's he explored during this era as the older wise and soldier, you know, I like Gib Jones a lot, actually.
2:03:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I was a kid growing up during this and in our racial relations like you didn't see that a lot or very, very certainly you would not see that the only TV show I've been remembered like Jefferson's added in a racial
2:03:25
[SPEAKER_00]: couple, but that was not.
2:03:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I was still very taboo.
2:03:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
2:03:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's still this in certain quarters.
2:03:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I had a landlord when I lived in a new NIA, upstate, went off on a, and this was something I was, went off on like, that it just wasn't right.
2:03:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Just what, like, so it's, again, we have not evolved in certain quarters.
2:03:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So, but again, encouraging to see the kids that were reading this were obviously in caps.
2:03:47
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's holding away for the younger minds to understand what's at stake.
2:03:51
[SPEAKER_06]: This post Vietnam generation is being exposed to different kinds of content and their comics.
2:04:01
[SPEAKER_06]: I explored here, you know, the red skull decides to celebrate the date of Hitler's death by murdering people with the dust of death, but while playing Chopin's death march, this guy has a huge flair for the dramatic, obviously, but he's basically trying to overturn economic policy.
2:04:16
[SPEAKER_06]: If I can find a way to infiltrate the government by killing these key figures, it's going to collapse the whole system.
2:04:21
[SPEAKER_06]: And what have we seen that a few times in the last several years, including, you know, Russia's interference in the twenty sixteen election, et cetera.
2:04:28
[SPEAKER_06]: It's a jarring story again to realize how simple the controls behind democracy are, how easily it's lost.
2:04:36
[SPEAKER_06]: So using those real world comparisons about like that counterfitting scheme in real world history.
2:04:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, not just deep and often, but all these taxes are things that we've seen before.
2:04:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And we certainly saw it in Nazi Germany, you know, but the whole using this scapegoat, whether it's an economic scapegoat that you use, whether it's immigrants or Jews, or whatever it was, fully in those levers, economic levers to get the masses on board with your horrible agenda.
2:05:03
[SPEAKER_00]: It's happening now where we're living it.
2:05:05
[SPEAKER_06]: We'll get into this in future episodes, but Hitler branded the Jews as rats, as thieves, and we see trans people and immigrants being branded as animals, as savages, as mentally unstable as criminals.
2:05:17
[SPEAKER_06]: It's literally the same tactics.
2:05:20
[SPEAKER_06]: listen to, or believe your statement into the next thought, which is basically what happens when fascism is kept in America, right?
2:05:28
[SPEAKER_06]: Like, this is what we're seeing around us now.
2:05:29
[SPEAKER_06]: And this is a story we see in the comics, including the recent story, where there's a literal evil Captain America who's the fascist running around that got created by the cosmic cube.
2:05:38
[SPEAKER_06]: He's called Steve Rogers, but people like to call him Steevele.
2:05:41
[SPEAKER_06]: Steevele Rogers, because he's Steven evil.
2:05:45
[SPEAKER_06]: What happens when fascism is America?
2:05:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, what happens is that it was tomorrow because this is where they've been very clear in the Captain America.
2:05:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I know we're Capwood Stand right now, which is why we're talking about earlier when one to the No Kings Valley, Lisa Lee, I probably wore my capture because I know we're Capwood Bay standing.
2:06:05
[SPEAKER_00]: in that you know I always felt that the Captain America's character for me that has become more meaningful but older I get in terms of how powerful it is and that he represents what we should be striving for always the American ideal if you don't strive for these things you'll you don't you'd never get there like like thinking of just thinking that things well things will just get better know you have to make things better
2:06:28
[SPEAKER_06]: but also we've never got there yet.
2:06:30
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, the ideal has not always been present for people who are disenfranchised, and I think it's really tipped on its head.
2:06:36
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, recently the X-Men formed their own nation on Krakawa in the comics, and the first three laws they made, one of them was murder no man, like harm nope, no human.
2:06:46
[SPEAKER_06]: But at the end, when there's a hate group that has turned against them, Captain America's at their side when the X-Men started slaughtering their enemies, because it's a group of fascists who came after them.
2:06:55
[SPEAKER_06]: And it's slaughter.
2:06:56
[SPEAKER_06]: There's characters being killed by kid pride on the page, which is crazy, right?
2:07:00
[SPEAKER_06]: The idea of like, there's a line that gets crossed for cap.
2:07:03
[SPEAKER_06]: And when that line is crossed, he will sanction anything to wipe it out because he knows how dangerous it is.
2:07:08
[SPEAKER_06]: That's a through line for this character consistently represented by the red skull, of course.
2:07:13
[SPEAKER_00]: for sure.
2:07:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and Rebaker certainly hit that home during his own as well.
2:07:18
[SPEAKER_00]: With the use of Bucky, how Bucky was used with Cap and we'll work to like, we'll get there eventually.
2:07:24
[SPEAKER_06]: But yes, the winter soldier story is its own thing.
2:07:27
[SPEAKER_00]: But powerful stuff.
2:07:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, I commend Engelhar for what he did with this character during that time.
2:07:33
[SPEAKER_06]: Right, it is still using the formula that he set up for telling Captain America stories.
2:07:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, there was a well some recent run with Sam Wilson's cap where it was a whole very much with the border dealing with the border immigration and they had the whole fan for what they what they were called they were the they were basically like Nazi cop.
2:07:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that that that they released so it's still very much relevant.
2:07:55
[SPEAKER_06]: There's a new cap series launching now, but the last one was by Strasinski, and he did a lot of flashbacks to like a puny cap back in World War II, like fighting the German-American boond, like the Nazi ideals in America, back when he still is ninety eight pound weakling self, you know?
2:08:09
[SPEAKER_06]: These themes continue to get explored and explored with this character.
2:08:12
[SPEAKER_06]: It's it's really fascinating and inspiring, frankly.
2:08:15
[SPEAKER_00]: an important to when I've been really kind of across people who say, again, I grew up during a time when to be gay, you couldn't even get a job if you said you were gay.
2:08:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
2:08:24
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, like, we're kind of back there these days, by the way.
2:08:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
2:08:28
[SPEAKER_00]: But you know, but when you encounter people that are like, oh, but we had to all right, everyone, it's all combined, like the fights over.
2:08:35
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, what are you talking about?
2:08:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Look around you.
2:08:37
[SPEAKER_00]: No, the fight is never over, unfortunately.
2:08:40
[SPEAKER_00]: There will always be some group of people that certain folks will try to diminish for whatever purposes and usually to mobilize them in some way, whether it's to just like economically.
2:08:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, well, you're doing bad, but you know, it could be worse.
2:08:53
[SPEAKER_00]: You could be these folks.
2:08:54
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, it's so right.
2:08:55
[SPEAKER_06]: We've talked about this a little in these episodes because there's a storyline we covered where the red skull is revealed to be the leader of the Black Panther Party in America.
2:09:03
[SPEAKER_06]: That's a rough one.
2:09:03
[SPEAKER_06]: It's about what I wouldn't recommend it.
2:09:05
[SPEAKER_06]: But you know, we talked about how civil rights are only we're only one after an entire generation of Black leaders were killed, assassinated, or imprisoned falsely.
2:09:14
[SPEAKER_06]: So like the hard fight can never stop and we've never in quite gotten there.
2:09:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I just had assassination work.
2:09:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess it's weeks and months ahead.
2:09:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And so out of the news, I go in a damn insanity.
2:09:26
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, more relevant than ever, I would say all this stuff.
2:09:30
[SPEAKER_06]: Really, really jarring.
2:09:32
[SPEAKER_06]: So these conversations are silly because we often look at the Red Stolicies, the Donald Duck character of Marvel Universe in an odd way, but these are basic, quite serious content.
2:09:41
[SPEAKER_06]: It's not been an honor to join with you, my friend.
2:09:43
[SPEAKER_06]: This is our third time on this show, so I'm super grateful.
2:09:47
[SPEAKER_06]: And I look forward to hanging out in New York in August.
2:09:51
[SPEAKER_06]: Any final thoughts before we wrap up?
2:09:52
[SPEAKER_00]: No, all good.
2:09:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I've got luck inside.
2:09:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a big cat fan.
2:09:55
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just a wonderful character, which can be a lot of time sometimes.
2:09:58
[SPEAKER_00]: It can disrespect the rest of the world.
2:10:00
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be silly and over the boat.
2:10:02
[SPEAKER_00]: They're symbols.
2:10:03
[SPEAKER_06]: We'll come back to the SNAP Wilson Cosmic Cube Falcons stuff.
2:10:07
[SPEAKER_06]: But we're called Reston Sheets Roscoe and the Ideals of the American Youth in May, July, July, July.
2:10:13
[SPEAKER_06]: Thank you, Jorge Gonzalez.
2:10:14
[SPEAKER_06]: Everybody will see you back here next time.
2:10:18
[SPEAKER_06]: Thank you for listening to Grimalk and Lane.
2:10:20
[SPEAKER_06]: We hope you are enjoying this podcast.
2:10:22
[SPEAKER_06]: Grimalk and Lane is produced and recorded in Salt Lake City, Utah with music and editing done by my husband, Michael Bell, and promo art done by the incredible Seth Martell.
2:10:32
[SPEAKER_06]: Look for us on Patreon, where we are releasing weekly episodes about obscure characters and facts.
2:10:38
[SPEAKER_06]: It's a great way to participate with the podcast for only just a couple of dollars a month and it helps support what we are doing here.
2:10:45
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2:10:46
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2:10:54
[SPEAKER_06]: We'll see you back your next time on Grimmulkin Lane.